In this episode, we explore the psychometrics of video interviewing. We talk with video interviewing expert Andrew Wood from Willo (not a sponsor) - and the legendary Steve Levy.
It's a lengthy conversation but well worth the listen as we break down:
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In this episode, we explore the psychometrics of video interviewing. We talk with video interviewing expert Andrew Wood from Willo (not a sponsor) - and the legendary Steve Levy.
It's a lengthy conversation but well worth the listen as we break down:
Listen & Subscribe on your favorite platform
Apple | Spotify | Google | Amazon
Visit RecruitingDaily
Twitter @RecruitingDaily
Join the Secret Sourcing Group
Learn more about #HRTX Events
Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls welcome to Sourcing school, where sourcing happens and age guessing is also a game that we play. I'm Brian Fink and this is Ryan Leary and we're welcoming you to Sourcing school.
Ryan:Alright Woody. Guess Mr. Steve Levy's age. What is it?
Andrew Wood:Well now you're taking the hat off Steve.
Steve Levy:I have CHS syndrome i didn't hear what you said - what was that?
Andrew Wood:50...54
Steve Levy:Next week i turn 62.
Andrew Wood:Wow congratulations.
Ryan:I don't think you look a day over 45. It is unreal.
Steve Levy:I still have my 6-pack which is which is which which Fink loves to hear
Brian:Yeah that's why i got a Peloton so I can be Steve Levy when i grow up.
Ryan:Oh man. We didn't come here to talk about your age we came here to talk about video interviewing. So this is come in, this conversations being continued from HRTX, where Woody was doing a demo and then of course you and Dean came on and i had to ask that stupid question: "Steve what do you think about video interviewing?"
Steve Levy:It wasn't a stupid question, actually it's a good question and and or you know the answer is is actually pretty darn logical when you think about. It's like what do you think about applicant tracking systems what do you think about HRIS, what do you think about Workday? okay change that part
Andrew Wood:Maybe not.
Steve Levy:Workday's awesome! Workday is like the best ATS system ever created! This sourcing school has been brought to you by William Tincup and"Someday Enterprises"
Ryan:Alright so let's kick this thing off Fink.We wanted to we're talking video interviewing so Woody why don't we why don't we start by why don't we start like this why don't you give us a kind of an overview because you're you're from Willo right which is a video interviewing platform. Give us a rundown - this is not sponsored by Willo- we're just having Woody on because he's got fantastic knowledge and i think we have a lot of good things we could talk about here. For the audience so give us an overview of what willow is kind of where your stance is and then let's get into it.
Andrew Wood:Yeah i think it's interesting that you know the reason that we wanted to continue this discussion i guess with steve was actually it was an interesting debate right at the end in the difference between how different roles and personalities suit video interviewing and there's it there's such a huge you know the last question anybody ever asks on a Willo demo is are how appropriate is this for our role which is weird because you would have thought that would be the first question anybody would ask if they're looking at all and the answer is that you know working so we're working in about 130 different countries lots of different languages and you get everything from blue collar entry level cleaner through to ceo of a governmental organization and the reality is is not is video appropriate it's is the way that you're going to use video appropriate? so if you're asking you know for a load of ceos to having never spoken to them, send out a video link and ask them to answer really generic questions, it's probably not probably not right. but if you're going to use it in a slightly different way post initial screening, and actually use it to compare them you know towards the end of the process as opposed to at the beginning then it is going to be appropriate so i guess what what i'd love to debate with Steve and with your many years of knowledge many more years than anybody knows is-
Ryan:-you're old-
Andrew Wood:I said in and HRr politically correct way you're an experienced individual. I think it would be great to debate you know what kind of categories video does work for and how you know how would you apply it to the engineer world and the point that i was making on the call on the HRTXintroduction to Steve was the you know it's not a sales guy assessing an engineer it's an engineer assessing an engineer. and what you need to do is make sure everybody's comfortable with that. you know we're not looking for somebody to come on and be Woody from Willo we're looking for somebody to come on and be an engineer on the ground .so yeah.
Brian:Woody - wait i gotta interject something here for a quick second Steve i know that i know that you and Woody want to want to have this dialogue but Woody is there any is there any unbias / bias training that goes that goes along with your that goes along with video interviewing? because i'm just worried about you know if i'm a if i'm a white engineer and i see a female that maybe i don't think that she can code as well as somebody else does? is there any kind of unconscious bias training?
Steve Levy:hey brian but Woody before you answer that i that is a really good question but i think there are some elements to discuss right even before you get to that point
Brian:Cool
Steve Levy:You know if i can get things straight and get all the gerbils running in the same direction on the wheels in my brain i, i liken it to you know applicant tracking systems you know what's the best applicant tracking system or in the world of you know dean decosta what's the best chrome extension for finding an email ?and the answer you must decide what's the best platform for video interviewing what is the best platform what is the best strategy for interviewing period and the answer is always "well it depends" and ultimately any system any technology is is going to rise to the level or lower themselves to the level of the competency or incompetency of the people using it. you know so in in the context of your question training the answer is really it really does depend what it's going to be used for. Brian you've heard me say this and i may have said this on HRTX, but when i speak to engineers on video interviews i throw in early on some elements that i use to try to comfort them, because i know based on a few years you know doing technology related interviewing, and technical interviewing, that you know engineers as a group tend to live their lives at the intersection of ADHD highway and asperger's boulevard and so if you put them in a situation where they're on stage they tend to clam up. it's like you know it's just go to the general interviewing process the way most companies on the planet interview people like engineers it's rapid fire rapid fire talk to me about data structures talk to me about deadlocks talk. come on man just give me a how about saying hi and welcome me welcoming me to the interview and stuff like that. so the answer Brian is it the training is one thing but you know you give you know somebody training on how to drive an F1 race car and they only got their license last week it's not going to turn out well. Woody?
Andrew Wood:yeah i mean so we don't we don't offer training at the moment we we've had discussions with people about it but i think you've got to look at video in the context of an interview process and bias overall and you know if you think and i've talked about this previously but if you think about resume screening you know you spend seven seconds on average screening a resume as a recruiter so the amount of system one thinking bias that happens there is huge right is that's basically how you're forming your opinion is where did they last work where do they go to school what's the name kind of figure out if they're male or female etc and then maybe a little bit about what achievements they've had what's the difference between video interviewing and face to face interviewing
Steve Levy:not much well on some levels yes it's like a you both know no one here knows that on this videocast i'm sitting here with only a shirt on i have nothing to i'm joking on that one but there there are elements of the environment i mean nature nurture exists not just in life but on interviews as well and the environment does make a difference if you have ever been you know on stage for the first time any of us spoke at a conference in front of a group of people no matter how much we knew our material there was a lot of sweating going on amongst other things and so you know you acclimate you know acclamation is is is not something that's genetic it's something that comes over time and face to face is simply more natural more commonplace than video now you know for better or for worse the pandemic has changed that to a great deal and people are gonna have you know it's but then you know then we start talking about things like zoom fatigue i mean if you have Zoom fatigue in your non interview life and then you're put onto as video a platform whether it's zoom or webex or or any platform there's there are elements of the environment that just muck it up
Ryan:so so i've got a question here it's it's an in in a i'm a fan of video interviewing in certain in certain certain circumstances what are your thoughts on one way video interviewing versus to ill so i guess recorded versus live
Steve Levy:is that your definition of of that ryan does the audience understand all that
Andrew Wood:yeah so asynchronous is the is the really boring term that nobody ever wants to use
Ryan:yeah i was trying to avoid that yeah asynchronous video i was trying to avoid that yeah so recorded where the candidates going on asking questions or i'm sorry answering questions it's not a live face to face video interview right so they're going through the process it's time for for the audience that may not be using video interviewing there the candidate is going through the process and at some point in time this becomes part of the screening process where you know maybe there's four or five questions whatever that substance going to be they get in front of their camera they answer the questions right and that information then goes to the recruiter or hiring manager what are your thoughts on on that versus a live engaging video interviewing process
Andrew Wood:and obviously i'm biased talking about this here
Ryan:but that's fine go ahead I want to hear it
Andrew Wood:and asynchronous platform and it depends how forgiving the business is when they set up so in asynchronous video you have an option you can either give somebody an unlimited number of retakes let's say so they could record themselves 20 times to make sure that they feel comfortable and get to the right answer and in my opinion that's the way it should be because you can write a resume as many times as you like you know you you it's a new technology it is weird watching yourself back and i'd much prefer people that fail to them succeed than people that just do an 80% job and think that's all right and move on and again just from from my experience of interviewing so before being in the video world i was a recruiter for 11 years and in order to see somebody's true potential i don't believe that you need to put them under a huge amount of pressure right so actually a one way video interview where you can retake it like coming back to your point steve about sweating profusely in front of a group of people i'm not sure whether he's on my mind let's maybe move on but when you're about to do a presentation you know wouldn't you rather record that video and then present it to them and record it enough times that you know you've nailed it
Steve Levy:from my point of view and brian and ryan have heard me speak. i don't want retakes you know for me things come out of my mouth that i sometimes wish i could put them back in but but i can't i spoke at a conference once in which i was describing and brian remembers this you know what's it like what is like to be a courageous sourcer and i talk about something like you have to be aware of opportunities like if you go to a restaurant and you know and near accompany you covet and you see a business card bowl that's what i said mic pod it's like it's a source-gasm it just came out of my mouth now might most people want to push that back in but there are the reality of life itself when you're on the job you don't get do overs and you know it's a fine line i mean that goes back to the the one of the original discussion points that we started started having offline wanted to we had an HRTX is, you know, there are many people for whom being on stage is just not a comforting element, it's not a comforting time. And they do want do overs. And so you have to, there's a balance there, you know, there's Unlimited, which is we would always love to have unlimited do overs. You know, you know, many, many, I would have made far fewer relationship mistakes. But that's not life. And so whereas there's there has to be there's there needs to be a balance somewhere.
Andrew Wood:Yeah. And I think one really, really important point is what, what we think about asynchronous is it doesn't replace live interviews, it supplements, it's not a substitute, it's a supplement, you know, it, it allows you to see more people in a wider net, and supplement their resume with some personality and some vibrancy behind that with a view that then you can focus on the right candidates in the live interview, and then put them under the pressure.
Steve Levy:You know, in some on some level, I mean, I I agree with any of the the more data points we have on a human being the you know, for all intents and purposes, the the the hopefully the more the better the decision will make a hiring decision will make now we know that's not always the case. But the tip to ultimately make these really useful if you really want to augment and is, you know, when the the questions that are asked on on this screening video piece, invariably should not be close to the questions that will be asked in real life. Now, now, now we go back to Brian's original question is, what training and advisory services are provided by video platforms to their users to help improve the process, because when you when you take a process, and you foist technology on top of it, without improving at first, you get a more complicated, stupid process. And so there therein lies the opportunity to make a true impact for video interviewing, particularly video interview, video platform, you know, providers is, you know, you know, the ability to look at an organization's process, and identify the best place, or the best opportunity to inject that into it. So it gets the greatest rate of return, whatever that might be. And according to the company, and according to the provider, -
Ryan:Steve, let's talk about the training a bit. So I have seen, I've seen platforms, not necessarily video interviewing platform, or platforms, where the the candidates go through and they become coached. I mean, this might be off topic a bit, but I think it's super important for the audience. Because in the audience, there's always that debate of, do you prep your candidates for the interview, right? Or do you let them just go in in a natural state and understand really who they are what they understand without being coached, right? Wear wear tie? button, your tie all the way up? Shake, firm hands, all that type of stuff. Right? What so so what I'm curious to get your thoughts on is Steven, of course, you and then think, but is, and I'm a fan of this, I'll just put it out the front. I'm a fan of prepping candidates. I'm a fan of providing them with a resource library to understand how to do it what to do it give them a little silhouette guideline to stick their head within or something to that effect. But I'm curious to get your take on that. Where do you guys stand on and maybe what he will start with you?
Andrew Wood:I'm a fan of transparent prepping of candidates. So if you're, if you look at the modern world, what are the key things that we really need in individuals, we need potential and then coachability. And if you as a as a recruiter, are prepping candidates and you're prepping them well, and you've told, you know, hiring managers, this is the prep that I give them, and that person turns up unprepped and not taking the coaching on board. Now as a non hire. That's a non starter, right? So I'm a huge fan of of helping people understand what they should be doing, and then assessing how they translate into what they actually do. Because it's just a great way to work as a partner saying, well, I told him to do this. did they do it? Yeah. Great. They're coachable.
Ryan:I know that you bring up a good point there and I don't think I've ever for whatever reason ever really thought of it that way. I only started as let's prep the candidate to do a great job. But I've never I don't know why it just clicked as you said it. Well, he didn't take my advice. What What the hell's wrong with him?
Andrew Wood:Yeah. I have that realization. So again, when I was working in agency placing candidates, and I'd asked the client, I'd be like, do you want me to prep these candidates or not? And if they said, No, I'd be like, Well, why not? Why? How about I tell you what I'm gonna tell them to do. And then you figure out whether they've done it or not. And that's going to tell you so much about, you know, their levels of confidence, their coachability, you know, and this was early careers stuff. So it was even more important that, you know, in early careers individual took on board advice from somebody deemed an expert. So yeah, and the reason other recruiters in my agency didn't do it is they wanted their candidates to have a step up. So it would be like, I'm going to prep these people to an inch of their lives, and they're going to go in and smash the interviews, you know, and it's like, but then it's just a false economy, because they're going to leave in two months anyway. Right?
Steve Levy:I have 2 points. Woody is spot on with the point and take my advice? When I reach out to people, I send them invariably and try to help to get them scheduled? For a video interview with me. I I send em an email and it is, I'll use some fictitious engineering name Woody, Woody, here are my basic questions whose answers will be very helpful to have before we talk, they'll ensure that we can focus on what you want, and not focus on me trying to write it all down. And I have 1-2-3-4- 8 or so nine questions. 98 plus percent of people respond back with those things written out. The ones that don't, I'm thinking to myself, well, A, they may not really want this. B. There are not really serious, you know, any any number, but you know, it puts me a little bit on edge. And I'm if the two of you I'm very forgiving when it comes to these things, because I know that, you know, my particular sector engineers don't really know like, you're like doing this. So I agree with you completely on that. Now, you know, the part about about prep is that good Lord, my train of thought just derailed did but didn't know True story. But there's, you know, if you want to prep the right way, Oh, I know what it was just early this week, a real life situation. Somebody had reached out to me they want I wanted to go into it. I want to be an either an agile coach, or a product owner, great person had the appropriate level of bank experience. I read the resume I tell people look, man, I neither psychic, nor do I have any special ESP abilities. I don't know what I have to I have to speak with you. And so he starts going on, you know, what, what do you want to you know, let's talk about the the Agile stuff first. Why do you why I want? Well, where in your background is this? You know, so it's not really I said, you think maybe you want to focus on some of the technological aspects of your work in your resume. I'm coaching him as I'm screening him. Because there's a general problem we have in recruiting is that in that the bulk of the profession how most people were taught is you interview to exclude, rather than to include. in my mind's eye, you know, top performing organizations want to increase the size of their funnel, and every step of the way. You know, these days, particularly, you know, think all the companies that aren't offering remote work, they're already starting at a deficit. So why would they then try to, you know, just narrow the size of the funnel? What what the proper coaching ahead of time does is it makes it more likely that you're going to hire people, not that you're going to weed out the bad people.
Ryan:So So Steve, you bring up a point there, I want to want to take it from there, because I wrote a question down earlier, or a statement down that the goal is to hire the best worker, right, not the best interviewer. And so I saw that somewhere. I wrote it down, you want to hire the best worker, not the best interviewer. So how do we do that? Right. So on video interviewing, and well, you might have a, you know, I guess more scientific answer to this than Steve. All right. But how do we ensure we're hiring the best worker through that? It's really a sacred asynchronous because I think that's where we're focused. And I think that's a better, better conversation point anyhow, but how do we ensure we're hiring the best worker in that process and not just someone who pulls off a killer interview?
Andrew Wood:Yeah, I think that the thing with asynchronous versus live is live is, you know, there's it's an interview but on video, and people are much more comfortable with that, whereas asynchronous is definitely new. And how do you make sure you hire the right person? For all? All that starts with asking the right questions? First and foremost, asking consistent questions. So for example, I had a chat today with an organization that was looking at jumbling up all of their questions for every different interviewee, not how can you drive a consistent competency framework? If you're not asking the same questions to each individual? So you have to really understand first and foremost, what are the questions that you should be asking, which takes absolute time. And then secondly, one thing I love about asynchronous video of many is that actually, once you've hired good people, you can look back at what they did in their video interview, to then go, Okay, well, these were the behaviors that we saw. How do we move ahead?
Steve Levy:Yeah, a couple of things on that one. Longtime long term customers Woody. If you take, you know, psychological testing, like the Myers Briggs and Myers Briggs, and many other intelligence tests, they do cycle in different questions over time, they build up an inventory of questions. And they've computed chromebox, reliabilities. Statistics, the chromebox alpha, for each item to see, essentially, how connected are these questions are to performance to your other point? it back casting, you know, you know, the net three years from now, with long term, you know, with long term customers, you can go back and look at that, but then that now you're left with a couple of different confounding psychologically, more more psychologically complicated elements in that, how do you grade video performance, not just answer performance, you know, the nonverbal stuff, which are all part of that the you know, the equation? This is it becomes it certainly becomes, you know, complicated to to what's the word to justify the cost to the to justify the platform, if you're not taking a long term approach to it over the short term? You know, it's just a question of, you know, maybe you can increase the size of the top of your funnel. I mean, that was that that was the whole concept behind chatbots when they first came on board. Yeah. Your name's Brian.
Brian:No. chatbots my, my nemesis, the chat bot? Um, that's a that's a conversation for another for another podcast. Woody, something that-
Ryan:if you're using chatbots, and customer service? Stop, like, I don't know, I haven't I have no way off base, but you bring up chatbots. I've needed customer service the last few days, especially from Verizon. And it's just getting stuck I get to god awful. Go ahead. Sorry.
Brian:Yeah. So actually, I wanted to come back to something that what he touched on, and we were talking about their performance in the interview. I know that Steve, or I believe Steve gives code assessments or code challenges to, to his engineers and to see their work. In my right, Steve, that that is true. And there are some other complicated other elements too, which I think you and I might have spoken about. But yes, I do. So So what do you the question I would ask is, is a compliment to video interviewing? Would you also recommend that people be responsible for producing some sort of work product to, to accentuate what their abilities are?
Andrew Wood:Yeah, absolutely. So and I actually wrote a thing about this around what's the what's the last thing you should do before you hire somebody is Lee at the very least, or the thing that everybody forgets to do, which is test them to do a core part of the job that they're actually going to be performing? You know, how often have you been through an interview process? And you suddenly go, Ah, I didn't actually figure out whether they could send an email you know, it's like, somebody else could have written their resume or they could be great on camera but can actually code and all of those things, so complementing video, which is soft skills, and communication and cultural fit and all of those kinds of things along with
Brian:we were we were What do you just use the word cultural fit, like, whenever I hear the word cultural fit, I just that there's a bell that goes off in my head that makes me think of this company that I worked for that I'm not going to mention. Yeah, that Steve might They used to use cultural fit to disqualify candidates. And the company was overwhelmingly of the same. The same demographic, he'll say, Brian, it'll kill kill. Yeah.
Andrew Wood:There's, there's those that embrace culture and those that weaponized culture, if you like, and
Steve Levy:the way of putting it,
Brian:that's a great way.
Andrew Wood:If you embrace culture, you should be embracing the culture of diversity community, etc. And the reality is, is that going to be a video problem? Absolutely not. Because they'll go to the live interview. And lo and behold, you're not a cultural fit. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, you need you need other tools for definite to challenge that kind of mentality, you know, institutional mentality in a business, really.
Steve Levy:I had that thought seven years ago, I really wanted to thank you. But yeah, weaponizing culture, I like that. But But there are a couple of elements here, it's for those who do not see me in person, I have a Sons of Anarchy breaking bad vibe about me. You know, tattoos, shaved head scowl scars. Not exactly. Banking material. So, you know, as as, as, as the song, what's love got to deal with it? What's culture got to do with it? And the answer is, well, it kind of all depends, depends where you are, as a company, it depends, you know, what values you really do hold true. Be that Be that as it may, but you know, one of the things if you fit, fit is fit is is the general word. And ultimately, it goes down to, and this is where any interviewing at every step in every interview process, I think has to substantively focus on one thing more than another. And that is why are we hiring that? Why are we potentially hiring this person? You know, we're not, we're not going to hire them, hey, here's a paycheck, go take some days off, you crazy silly, who's we hire them to solve problems to, to perform in in specific situations? If the and this goes back to one of my original statements is, you know, what's the best IDs? What's the best Chrome extension for finding emails? What's the best video platform? The answer is, it depends on the skills of the people who are setting them up, not on your side, Woody, but on the client side, and what they're choosing or not choosing to do with them, and the people who are using them and not the training that you provide them on how to use the platform. But in the in the training the ongoing coaching internally during the process, to you know, incrementally improve it, remove bias, you know, reduce latency, improve reliability, etc. And so questions, and this ultimately goes down to, I think the most important and complicated variable in video platforms is what freakin questions you're going to ask and why are you asking them and what do you hope to get from them?
Ryan:So with that, one, at the end of most episodes, we ask for some some nuggets of knowledge that-
Brian:Ryan wants you to give three takeaways at the end of every episode, but we have two people. So that's six takeaways.
Steve Levy:No, we can do one, we can do one and a half a piece. I have a sense.
Ryan:One and a half question. So two, three questions to consider asking during your video interview? One and a half questions each.
Steve Levy:Age before beauty.
Andrew Wood:Yeah, you go Steve.
Steve Levy:Okay. It's it's a quick setup. What I like doing is in this, I think this works exceptionally well, for technology really anything. Think about you go to the hiring managers, or the hiring manager. And considering this role in the in the last six months? What's been the most complicated problem that some person in a similar role has had to solve and solve effectively? You turn that into a question to a scenario question. You know, let's just use the question. Let's assume you're, you're you're faced with this scenario. And you don't you don't give all the details. But he gives you just give enough to get them going. What would you do and why would you do it something of that sort three possible outcomes outcome number one they have no idea you know the answer that one second outcome they come up with a solution it's pretty darn close to the one that you came up with okay that's pretty good third outcome they come up with something you didn't think about you go oh my goodness
Brian:Woody?
Andrew Wood:Where's the half?
Brian:Yeah we'll do the half of the end. We'll do it we'll do that again because i have to do some mind melding with you first.
Andrew Wood:Oh Dear. It's such a- because it really depends on the organization and the role and all of those things -when i interview for Willo one of the core things in the remote world that we need to know is, who are you when no one's looking and what do you do? so i love asking that question in a video and saying who are you when nobody's looking?
Steve Levy:is that legal? jargon i keep thinking of brian you know so there
Brian:...is that question legal okay
Andrew Wood:Oh dear, so yeah who are you when nobody's looking is absolutely my favorite question to help understand what people do you know and what what what values they have you know what work ethic they have in a remote world and also it kind of hits them like nobody has ever asked me that question before so it you know in a in my context which is particularly hiring for sales people you want to ask somebody an odd question that they probably don't know and see how they react and react to it so i don't know what are half the questions gonna be Steve have you written half of it out and i've got to guess the second half?
Steve Levy:no that would be like going back to the old days of johnny carson and carnac the magnificent but i date i pre date all of you on that one
Brian:i used to stay up i used to stay up because i wouldn't go to bed and watch that so i never years old yeah i know it was three years old but i love the big hat and i think that you would look awesome at the next recruiting event that we have steve wearing a big hat like carnac the magnificent now it would be lost on on easily two thirds of the group but i am sure that there are those individuals who would love to see you dress up as johnny carson i think that would be that would be great that would be great
Steve Levy:I'm going to drive to your house and kill you brian
Andrew Wood:mindmeld getting me on the same level i've no idea what any of you are talking about
Steve Levy:so we'll send we'll send you a video link just so you understand that woody and you can share that with all your friends i mean it's like it's like old old old sessions of monty python or benny hill if you must . you know as far as you know not it's not a half a question but it's a it's it's it's it's it's a it's a short question is tell people what you plan on doing ahead of time with their video interview answers
Andrew Wood:i couldn't agree more so with every with every asynchronous video there has to be reciprocity you have to show that you're willing to be recorded so record yourself talking about what you're going to do with the videos why you believe they're important and you know talk about the company culture and the role and if you're not willing to do that don't use video because it's just unfair process
Music:you know and to that point earlier on i spoke about the questions that i ask people to answer ahead of the interview and i tell them right back if you have any questions do you want for me to answer ahead of time send it to me and i will answer them for you by the way much in the same way if you think about all the time somebody who a competing recruiting organization of sorts recruiting information organization where i've spoken at their conference i think i saw this morning said you know if you think about for all the organizations need to need to spend as much time giving feedback to a person interested in their company as they spend in preparing an online application via their website so if it takes 20 minutes to to get that job application through we're obliged to give that person 20 minutes of feedback