Why Catholics Are Fighting More Than Ever

For years, it feels like Catholics have been asked to choose a side.

Traditional or progressive.

Latin Mass or Novus Ordo.

Justice or truth.

Mercy or doctrine.

Evangelization or tradition.

But what if we've been asking the wrong question?

In this episode of The Catholic Couple, Bobby and Katie discuss why division has become one of the greatest challenges facing Catholics today and why the answer isn't picking another side—it's becoming a saint.

Drawing from Scripture, Church history, René Girard's scapegoat theory, the Catechism, and the "both/and" vision behind Bobby's upcoming book Guardians and Prophets, we explore how the devil often divides the Church not through outright lies, but through half-truths that pull Catholics away from the fullness of the faith.

We also discuss:

•  Why Catholic tribalism is growing 
•  What René Girard teaches about scapegoating 
•  The difference between Guardians and Prophets 
•  What Catholics can learn from Protestants about discipleship and community 
•  Why authentic relationships matter more than ever 
•  Why we believe a real Catholic revival is happening 
•  How the Eucharist holds everything together 
•  Why the Mass is both the Sacrifice of Calvary and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb 

If you've ever been discouraged by Catholic infighting or wondered how we can move forward together, this conversation is for you.

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💬 QUESTION OF THE DAY:
Have you experienced Catholic tribalism? What do you think is the biggest challenge facing the Church today? We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to another episode of the Catholic Couple having fun with faith, family, and friends. I'm your co-host, Bobby Frederickson, with me as always, my beautiful wife.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Katie Frederickson.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I'm the Convert Catholic and she's the Cradle Catholic. We are on a new episode on someone of the topics of the book that I wrote, but just because it's pervasive in the whole entire culture about why does it feel like we are forced to pick a side, a team, a tribe, and everything, including our own church? I think this is such a problem. And I know you're feeling the same things as I am as we're seeing it unfold in real time within our own church.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I think that within our culture, I don't know if it's social media that gave this, but there's this need to speak our opinions consistently and constantly, right? Like everyone has their opinion. And I think that's where you within that growth of relativism, within our culture seepsing seeping into the church, that like I need to voice my opinion on these matters, where there used to just be this idea that you obey the church, you obey the church teachings, you respect the church teachings, you look at that authority of the church and you respect it. But now it's my opinion matters more than those things. So I want to see a change. And it's kind of like we're at a we're at this stalemate, right? That I feel like there are some things to have an opinion about, but there are some things that we need to hold as doctrines are doctrines, dogmas are dogmas, and right, like those aren't for debate, right? And um, you know, whether you lean more traditional or more progressive, we should always hold on to the truth. And when you start to erode what truth is and erase what truth is, which is what our culture is doing, I think that's where you see such a rise of camps.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

And I think you're hitting it on the head is that word authority authority, and that's where we get a lot of divisions just among Christians in the different denominations. That's the biggest fight is authority. And last night at uh the men's Bible study, we talked about the story of uh we did Matthew 17 and 18, but right before that, where Jesus gives Peter the keys, he gives him authority, whatever you bind is bound in heaven, whatever you bound on earth is is loose, whatever you loose is loose. And what's interesting is is what I didn't pick up until later that I was studying that in Matthew 18, there's this weird story about the temple tax. Where the the Pharisees come to Peter and they say to Peter, Does your master pay the temple tax? And he goes, Yes. And then right away he goes to Jesus, and before he even says anything, Jesus goes, Well, does the king's family have to pay the tax? He's like right away, he knew already what Peter had already spoken for Jesus and said, Yes, he pays the temple tax. Because this was a big debate at the time, whether or not one is to pay the temple tax yearly, or this was a one and done, because not explicit in scripture, but the Pharisees were trying to trap Peter about the temple because that was the way that they thought they can get Jesus. Eventually, that's what they get him with, is that he's going to tear down the temple. So they're trying to make him be an enemy against the temple, even though we know Jesus is going to be the new temple. But in the way the story unfolds is that Jesus is quite like, okay, you're speaking for me, right? And he goes, but the king doesn't make his own family pay the tax. He's the son of the king, so he shouldn't be paying the tax. But you already spoke for me ahead of time and said, Yes. So I'm not going to scandalize the authority that I just gave you. He goes, however, I'm not going to give you money out of my own pocket. Go cast a hook in a fish. In the fish, you're going to find a shekel. It's going to be enough for not just for you, but for me and you together. So he didn't undermine his authority, even though he spoke for him out of turn, saying that I'm not going to, I'm not responsible. I'm the son of the king. I don't have to pay the tax. But I'm not going to undermine that authority. Here's the go get this fish. It's got a shekel in it and go pay the tax for you and for me. It was a weird story until you put it in context. It's all about the authority. He had just given him authority to buy an into loose, and he didn't want to see right away that he was undermining his authority right away. So instead, he didn't chastise them. He just asked him a question. And then he didn't go back and say, no, tell him we're not going to do it. He found, like Jesus always does, he finds a way to kind of solve the problem without contradicting himself. You know, so and I think that's a lot of what we deal with is this authority within the church because a lot of people want to try to find a way around it. I know I can be guilty is that uh sometimes I have that within me where I want to push boundaries. I I want to try to find uh, you know, a loophole sometimes to go in. And I think it's okay to have different opinions within the church. But like you said, those things that we don't bend on are those doctrines and those dogmas. But I think the reason why we want to do the episode was trying to point to the fact that everybody has different roles within the church. As long as we are staying within that authority and staying in the bark of Peter, that we are in the same church under the Pope, and we have different body body parts of the body of Christ. Everybody has different functions, has different roles.

SPEAKER_01 5:06

With that comes different viewpoints and vantage points, which is beautiful. And that's not what I'm saying, that we can't be different on certain things, but I think we need to agree on a central truth, right? And be grounded in the specific truths of the church, which are within its dogmas, with within her negotiables. Yeah, her non-negotiables. The church is non-negotiables. And I think that's where it gets really sketchy, you know, that when when we're trying to push at those is where you really see huge division, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And I think there needs to be a clarification between traditions with the big T and traditions with the little T. And if you don't know what that is, like traditions that you only boys are altar servers, for example. That can be a contested thing that people talk about. Like, no, only boys should be altar servers. Like, well, that doesn't, that's not an apostolic teaching that goes back to the Bible. It doesn't explicitly say that. Those are traditions that throughout time, yes, priests are always going to be males, but altar servers, that has been like a small tea tradition, right? So those things have room for the spirit.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

The same with priests being married. That is also not an like a set in stone thing. It's a it's a probably something that will most likely it's for it. The the whole idea behind it is so that he can give his entire life to the church because of how much that that we, you know, need him to give everything. Um but other dogmas and doctrines aren't they're up, they're not up for debate, not up for debate. And I think that maybe it would be helpful if there could be some like solid just can the church come out and say, hey, these are the things we can't change. I mean, they have, but in a way that's like layman's terms, I guess, like a chart. Can we have an infographic?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Well, I I think the the problem is that there is so much. Like the catechism is, you know, 600 pages of dense topics that it lays out exactly what we do teach. And there is such a thing as development of doctrine and and and things like that, and it can go too far. But where where I think where the teams come in and where people want to pick sides is that they want to pick either truth or love. But we know that they're they're not divorced from each other, right? Right. For example, if somebody is caught in sin, that's one of the other uh things in the Bible study. We talk about Matthew 18, right? If somebody sins, it says first go to that person, right? Don't go on social media and post it. Don't go gossiping about it to somebody else, go to that person first, right? And then if they don't listen to you, take two or three and they don't listen, then take it to the church. I think that there needs to be if we're gonna give somebody the truth, we can't just beat them over the head and divorce the truth from love. Because what good is truth if it's hit with a sledgehammer on the person's head that it's not gonna actually get the person to change that sinful behavior, right? If you go first to social media, this person's doing this and doing this. Now they're gonna get defensive, now they're gonna go back. We shouldn't divorce truth from love. Just like many of the things within our faith, we shouldn't be separating.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

I think that that uh again, it's another example of our culture seeping into our faith and you know, the faithful. Um, because I think that there's this misunderstanding of what love is, too. You know, love isn't just telling everybody what they want to hear, making them feel good all the time and being nice. And I think we did an episode on being nice versus being, you know, a good, you know, being a good, nice person versus, you know, we're not called to be that as Christians, we're called to love, and love is willing the good of the other. And then if you are founded in the truth, then you know that you can love someone within that. But again, but it, you know, how you package it is everything too, but it doesn't mean you need to compromise the truth teaching.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Well, what does this look like, let's say practically, because we're seeing some splits within the church just this week, the excommunication, the SSPX, and we're not gonna get too much into it, but just know that we are called to be obedient, we can't splinter off and you know consecrate our own bishops and things like that. Like there is even if we disagree with the magistrator, but God has put those people in charge, regardless if you agree with them or not. And that goes the same with outside the church, right? It says in Romans 13 that authority has been given by God. That's why we see David doesn't kill Saul.

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SPEAKER_01 10:06

Right. And Dave He respects that.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

And that's the same whether if you like Trump or you like Biden, it's these other things, but you still have to agree that for some reason,

(Cont.) Why Catholics Are Fighting More Than Ever

SPEAKER_00 10:15

whether you agree with them or not agree with them, is that God put them there for a purpose. Same with this Pope, same with the president, same with the elected officials. Is that those people it says you are to submit to the authorities because uh ultimately you may not agree with them, but God's timing and his purpose of why he's doing it is up always to bring a greater good about when we don't know exactly what that is. So when we fall to the temptations of what the culture is doing, is to picking one side and pinning the sides against each other. It's one to say, okay, I my personality is this, hey, my background is this. Like for me, you know, hey, I'm a union member, but I lean more conservative. But like if I look to every problem in the world and say it's all this person's fault, it's because of them. I'm falling into the same trap of scapegoating, right? We we know all those stories throughout history, throughout scriptures, something to blame, somebody to blame. It's and it and what it does, it's twofold. It helps galvanize your own side against the common enemy, and it's a lot easier to point fingers at other people and not to look at yourself about what are you doing that's causing those problems. I mean, that's the whole of Christianity. What does it mean to be humble other than to take responsibility for all it's a radical idea, but all the problems in the world are because of me, because I can be better. And that's a radical idea, like it really is, but that's extreme ownership. But that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

But I also think that's so much of the division is this idea of my opinion and me holding on to my opinion and then being in my algorithms, all being fed my own opinion back to me, and I believe I'm right, and where it should be that it's it is takes it takes humility to say I don't know it all, and I'm gonna trust in this 2000 plus year um institution who is still standing and the gates of hell will not prevail. And I need to have trust. And the only thing I can really truly work on is myself. And while I may disagree with certain things with within the church of how things are said or handled, I I have to know and trust that this that while human beings fail to be perfect, it's it's God is perfect and and that the Holy Spirit is guiding this church. And I think that we need to, yeah, see more of the um like put aside our preferences to really focus on what is important. And again, I think it would be easy to see a little bit more of what are those dogmas that cannot change. Because I think that's what's scary for people is when they start to I think that for a okay, this might I think for a while, and it was pretty obvious with Pope Francis more than anything, is this vagueness that was coming from the Vatican. This if someone asked a question, because you know, the media wants so bad for the division. The media wants the media wants um the the church to, you know, to be in camps, yeah, to be in you're right. And so so Pope Francis was asked so many different questions, but he never just salt solidified and came out and said, like black and white. You know what I mean? He was um like that ambiguity, I think, is what really freaked people out, really. Exacerbates the divisions, so it let the media spin.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Takes both sides, takes goes each way.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Right. So it let the it allowed them for the media to spin certain narratives that were incorrect. It wasn't what he said or meant, you know, and then it allowed then the the the faithful to either you know to to make to either empower people to think, oh, these things can change, and then and then had the other side right freak out that well, we were always told these things can't change. Do you know what I mean? So it's like this um this uh I think it was like a smoke and mirrors thing that you know I'm not saying that it was Pope Francis's fault necessarily, but because we didn't have a leadership that stood its ground strong in something.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

He did on something on something, some things he was super strong, some other things he was big.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

I feel like we're still feeling the residual effects from that.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Yeah, and I I think that clarity always makes things clear, right? Like that like that's that's part of it. But it it's it's that that's that's the problem with within our church, is that it is a both and it's like we have to understand that you know the Catholic Church is way bigger than your preferences, and usually your preferences are aligned with some kind of political party. Uh like, okay, well, the Democrats believe this, Republicans believe this, therefore, this is the only part that I adopt.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

We should be looking at it brought like on a broader, I guess you can see in that spectrum of left and right.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Yeah, I mean, it's just more of you know, people's personalities, their preferences, but we see that even within the church, because this is going on in Europe, like okay, traditional Latin Mass versus the Norvisoto. And it's like we we get into these camps, but where we fall pray is what I think is the beautiful part about our faith is that there is diversity, that it's still the same truth, and we don't want to err on the side of sacrilege, like you know, so it can go too far or or or the traditional can go too scrupulous. It could be every everything is, you know, that we're losing, you know, the reasons behind it or being parasitical. We can get too much of, well, that's not pure enough, and that one doesn't even count, and that's heretical, versus, you know, there's different expressions of the faith, and it has changed over time, and it's it's by the Holy Spirit that which it it is done. And guess what? I have my preferences, you have your preferences, but it's not for me to point at you and say, Well, your preferences aren't good or they're less than, and to create these walls. Like, if we can't get it right within the church, how can we expect the rest of the world to look at us and say, well, they can't even get along in their own pews?

SPEAKER_01 16:10

But that's the devil's you know, biggest tactic is to divide. He, if he can't conquer the church, he's gonna divide the church, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:17

And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1, 10 to 13, he says, I appeal to you that there are no divisions among you, because some people were saying, I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas. And that sounds exactly like today. Well, I follow this bishop, or I follow this liturgy, or uh, I go back pre-Vatican II, or or I, you know, uh everything Pope Francis says is this or that. So it's like we want to get into this camps that usually align with what makes me feel better or what I prefer. And a lot of it has to do with us not taking the energy and the time to really understand why we believe what we believe and to actually investigate what does the catechism say? What does the church, what are those dogmas that are non-negotiable? What are some of those things? And most of them uh revolve around, you know, our preferences, like this is the liturgy or like, or this is the political party. And unfortunately, that is it's a less than Christianity, you know. C.S. Lewis calls it mere Christianity, but when we encompass both sides and hold them, it's more Christianity, it's not a less than, it's a fullness, it's not flattening out one or the other, is that both are necessary for some reason. God is allowing this. And I think that it is it could be a beautiful thing if we see each other's not as enemies, but different expressions of the same faith. That my argument all throughout the book is prophets and guardians that both are necessary, that we see that at the transfiguration. We see that Jesus is standing in between Moses, who's the law, who's holding something that was literally written in stone, those dogma, those dog, those dogmas. And then we see Elijah, who is the prophet, who's always calling those people to like, hey, we got to repent. You guys gotta come back. You went too far, there's not enough. Or he's always calling people to you know to to something different. And we everybody wants things to change and to get better, but we don't want to change. And that's what the prophets, it's hard to listen to prophets, and it's hard. Sometimes the prophets will just want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, they want to go too far. So there has to be something that's anchoring together. Obviously, that's Jesus. The the church is the body of Christ, but we need to have Jesus in the middle holding it together. But to see that Jesus didn't, he could have just appeared at the Mount Transfiguration by himself. He could have just said, I'm the fulfillment of both of these things. You don't need the law of the prophets anymore, I'm the new law. Don't worry about those things. No, he stood there with both Elijah and Moses and saying that he is the fulfillment. He didn't come to abolish, he came to fulfill, and that they're there for a reason. We need those guardians to hold true the truth, but we need maybe better spokesman to be able to let people know like what is that? Because it some people, you know, are saying this thing or that thing. It's like we need we need a both uh to to be able to bring the church to to the AI generation, and we're seeing Pope Leo be able to speak into that.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

I think too, uh there's a third issue that you have this set of of people who are cultural Catholics growing up in in the faith in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, where it was pretty watered down too. So you have people that are very well formed by the culture and not formed at all by their faith, but still holding on because of that cultural tie, like right, who are kind of in the middle of this, like and definitely sway towards whatever political party they sway towards, if that makes sense what I'm saying, right? Like, so you have that that like third group that aren't formed, they don't know those doc doctrines, dogmas, like right, they they just were um told to be nice. Um, you know, I mean that's a lot of my Catholic school upbringing wasn't really taught much except, you know, be a nice before be nice, be good, um a little bit about, you know, like mass, but it's like that we're at dinner and a table and a celebration of the Eucharist. Like I didn't understand what any of that meant, right? Like I wasn't really, everything was fluff, right? Everything was um surface level, surface level, um, you know, eighth, eighth grade education and Catholicism, right? And so we're expecting these people to to be able to understand um church authority and understand the rules, where they were never given any kind of um true formation in our our faith, you know, and so I think that's unfair to them. And so what they end up doing is just what our culture is doing is everybody's splintering off into their camps. And the more splintered off that you can become, the better, right? Right now it's it's how splintered off into my you know, smallest camp, smallest group of uh that I can become. And it's it's just it's just so sad because we should we we should be called to be something different, to do something different and not be splintered off into our own faith groups and camps, which is what we're supposed to be a different from the culture.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Well, I think that there's a larger issue to this too, is that there's half truths, right? So it's not only splintering into the groups, is that every heresy, I talk about this also in the book, is that every heresy is a half truth. So what the devil wants to do is present the faith in half of it, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:35

So well, the devil just can take a truth and just tweak one little small piece of it and just not giving you the fullness of the truth.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

So not even have to twist it, but only give you half of the truth.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

So not even half, like a piece, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

Well, you know, we see that all throughout time that when that happens, the heresy, the church steps up as the authority to say, you know, hey, the some of the first arguments were you know, Arianism, or hey, or body, the body's bad and and spirit is good, or um Jesus Jesus wasn't really God, he was like God undercover, or he was half God or half man. So that the church has to step in when they are these half truths, but we have to be on guard to know that that's happening today, that there are modern day heresies saying, well, it doesn't matter whoever you love as long as it's love. Like that that that that that that's a lie. Like, yeah, love is great. You're just called to love everybody, but not in that way. You know, it's like it's some of those those things that that's how the devil wants to present the faith. Is it's going to be half truths or partial truths or not the whole truth. But we have the beauty of the Catholic faith, which is the fullness of the faith, and it it's such it's such comes. So much more alive. But the problem with it is that it's hard. It's tough. It's very hard to believe that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man because we can't rationally think about it.

SPEAKER_01 22:50

And the thing is, is that you look back at at that, and if you were an underformed, not understanding what like what so what? Why did why did people fight over that? That's there's bigger fists to fry, right? But I think that it's um really important to understand that if we don't get God right, if we don't get this whole thing right, we don't get anything right. So so when uh when I taught the hypostatic union, it this was um the easiest way that I could explain to this my students that if if God's only part, if or if Jesus was only um, you know, if he was just some guy, right, then God just used some guy for a sacrifice. That's not love. He's it's he's using some guy, right? And if Jesus is fully just God and and not human, then it's God faking, because God couldn't experience what Jesus, what Christ experienced on the cross. We had to get that right. That because if we don't get that right, then we get our value wrong, we get the the who God is wrong, we get sacrificial love wrong. He has to be fully God and fully man in order for to redeem our humanity, in in order for it to make sense that that that that that that was a true sacrifice that God experienced pain and suffering, that that our full humanity is restored, that we are made in his image and likeness, and we are uh, you know, have a worth and a value and have dignity and we're worth dying for, and that God loves us so much, he did it himself, right? He he took on our humanity and experienced pain and suffering and died and rose to for us. And then if we don't get if we don't get that right, everything else is wrong. So to think about like these heresies, right, that would would kept springing up and you think like, geez, these guys are uh splitting hairs over over words, these teams one little letter, because if you get like because the truth has to maintain its full integrity, or else nothing matters, and and that's why it's so important that we don't care about these camps and about you know our opinions, it's about what is the truth. Solidify and ground yourself in that.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

And it's not just picking poles, right? There's another example here of a both and your explanation about Jesus, which is great, but he didn't separate justice from mercy. Jesus could have just forgiven us, but there was still a price to pay that our original sin, that there is a price for for sin and it's death. And he didn't say, Well, let's just wash it away, it's gone. No, he still secured justice. Justice was somebody had to die for this. Did you see that?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Was it Alpha that had the uh the judge sitting um, you know, in the judgment seat, like at in a courtroom, and uh um a guy comes in uh who did some crime, I don't remember what, and it was his friend, a childhood friend growing up. And so what happened was the the man was guilty of the crime, you know, he needed to to pay like a certain uh like yeah, right, like make make up for it. The judge sentenced him to the fine that he was, you know, expected to pay. And then the judge leaves the booth, comes around, and pays the fine for him as a friend, you know. So that right there, justice and mercy, right? Like that is the that was the perfect example. They're not they're not divorced.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

It's a lot, but it's way easier in our brains to to to flatten that to one side or the other. Like, for example, I use example in the book, like fear and love. It's the same thing. It's like, well, God's gonna love me no matter what, no matter what I do, it could be any sin. Yes, he does. But if we only have that God loves me no matter what, then there's no fear of God. Then I don't have to there's no consequences ever. I don't have to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Think about your kids if you do if you did that where oh my mom and dad love me no matter what.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Which is true. That's true, but there has to be consequences and there has to be boundaries. Yeah, and when we lose that fear of God, then any sin could be could be justified. But if it's only fear of God, then you don't feel like he's then you're missing the the fullness of that relationship, right? You know, and and and too much we have those camps within the faith is where the rules and the relationship are divided. It's either one side or the other. Many cradle Catholics grow up when it's the the focus is on what the only thing they were taught is do this, pray, pay, and obey, right? That these these are all the rules that you have to do. A lot of people, especially that lean more to the the guardian side, to the to the traditional side, they're really heavy on the rules. But when you ask them, like, well, how's your personal relationship with Jesus? It's like, well, what are you talking about? I don't have a relationship. They're not divorced from each other. Like the word religion itself comes from the Latin means to be uh be bound to, re means again, so to be bound to to God again. That religion is not divorced from the church, but there's also a communal aspect to it, but then there's also a personal aspect. That's not an either or isn't just just the the community of the church, but it's also my own uh individual prayer life, uh, my sacramental life and things like that. But it's not divorced from the whole church either. That there's always this tension that we're not just living this faith by ourselves, that we're in it's a both and again. We are, you know, God is you know full of justice, but he's also full of mercy. And but whenever we flatten it out to one side or the other, if we pick one camp or the other, we're missing half of the faith. And it's connected that way. And it is it's it's the genius of Catholicism that we have to do a better job of explaining what that looks like. And if we can't get it right within our own pews, how can we expect our neighbors, our communities, our governments, our companies to be able to do that if we can't show what God would look like because what does it look like practically?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Well, practically, I think it's first and foremost is having those conversations within within the churches. Like every church is going to have people who are on both sides of those spectrums, right? Who lean one towards the other, what I call the book prophets and guardians. I think we have to first have conversations with each other to see, okay, well, you're not the problem per se. Like your thoughts, like you have different roles within the church. Like, you know, somebody who who's charismatic isn't the problem, you know. Somebody who's a grandmother who doesn't want to raise their hands when they pray, praying the rosary, she's not the problem. Like everybody has their different charisms and their roles to play within the church, but everybody has different things. God has different charisms for people to use their gifts and their talents for building up the kingdom. But what I do think we can get better at is things that our Protestant brothers and sisters get right. Like we should be able to look to them, but that's not mean changing our liturgy, but how they approach everything else leading up to the liturgy and after we leave the liturgy. Like our parish does a great job after mass is we have coffee donuts, but it's not about the coffee and donuts. It's the fact that we know people, like they know us, they know our name. If we weren't at mass for a month, they'd be like, where are you guys been? Like we do a good job of community. And our Protestant brothers and sisters, they're great at that. Like they live for that. But Catholics, we think that mass is going to mass, which it is. But mass means you're sent. Now, where are you sent to? So are we doing a good job of trying to intentionally build those communities? And I think the church is growing, but where Catholics, I think, can do better at building the bridges in between the left and the right is facilitating great conversations and building community to have different opportunities where people can get to know each other, where it's not, you know, coffee and donuts is just a stand-in, right? To keep people there for a little bit, but to have this space, you know, where father would do like a donut challenge. Okay, ask somebody, hey, what was something that you did this weekend, or something to try to build those relationships. See, you know, we're a lot more alike than we are apart, even if we vote differently on election day, right? So, how do we make that look like to our kids? Obviously, it's not talking bad about those people, that's a good start, but it's just talking to other people. It's like you're coming from a different perspective, like as a convert, Catholic versus a cradle Catholic. I see the church pretty different. Like I have a different perspective because I'm I feel like I'm still an outsider, even though a lot of times I'm an insider working and helping the parish and stuff like that. But I just see blind spots and where I could help the church for people who are outside the church, because I think a lot of times people just go unnoticed. Like most churches, people show up that have never been there and someone doesn't even notice them. Like if you were in a Protestant church, people would come up to you like, hey, you're new here, what's going on? Like Catholics were kind of like in our own bubble sometimes when we go to mass. But I think that we can definitely do a better job when it comes to hospitality, to noticing people, to reaching out to people, to try to make people feel welcome. But that doesn't mean that you have to be doing what Protestants do in the liturgy. That doesn't mean hospitality. Hospitality is the before, the after, what the rest of the week looks like. Like they do a great job. Like on Wednesdays, they get together, do Bible studies, do groups, they meet each other's homes, they serve together. Uh, I think we can do a better job of doing that.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

So your answer to it is just community, like to bring us together because I think I think that in our culture, the othering wants us to not talk. And if you notice that, like, I think also it's just opening up dialogue and having those places to to have the conversations that they're not just nobody has that are.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

It's superficial. It's real easy after churches like, oh hey, you see the weather, it's gonna rain today, or hey, did you see the US like right now?

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Like small talk is not like small small. That's like torture to me.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

I hate small talk. And there's the there's those levels of it takes some time to get to know people. You don't just meet somebody like, hey, just so you know, I'm a used to be a drug addict. That's like that that's weird. That's oversharing. Yeah, so there's those levels of you know, building trust and and and having you know some curiosity and getting to know people. But I think that the church could do a better job of trying to find ways to have those deeper conversations where people actually get to build relationships that are based on things that are not superficial, that are more about sharing my life with you and then sharing it with other people so that we can help other people, that we can help people grow, draw people to Jesus, like this is what Jesus did in my life, or this is something about the liturgy that I learned, it's cool. Oh, okay. Will you see this different instead of saying, no, well, you're the reason why church numbers are down, or this thing that you're doing, or it's because of bingo, or whatever it could be, all these different issues. But to be able to facilitate how do we, as Catholics or as Christians, how do we do a better job of making people on the outside look in and say, I want to be part of that thing. Like, you know, Pope Benedict would always talk about like we don't proselytize, we need to be attractive to see what they are doing. Like the first Christians attracted people because they were singing psalms as they were being led to their murder, that they were living communally, they were living a life full of community and full of joy. You know, Mother Teresa says the joy is the net with which we'll catch souls. So are we, as Catholics, living that kind of authentic life where we're filled with joy? I can struggle with that, especially when things aren't going the way that I want them to do, right? But if we are being filled by the Spirit and being filled uh with Jesus Himself after the Mass when we go out, what are we doing with that gift? Are we are we wasting it? Are we bringing it to our workplaces, our neighborhoods, to our friends? And are we trying to bring more people back? Because obviously, you know, it's on us to, you know, the pastors aren't gonna go out there and like uh like attract new people. They're not standing on the street corners for most part, most of the part. It's gonna be you're first and foremost making disciples within your own house, right? Are you leading the faith in a way that's that's not you know, that the kids want to go to mass, they want to learn about Jesus. Katie's been doing a great job the last couple of weeks of leading Bible, Braden's leading, you know, his own little Bible study, and you're you're engaging with him in conversations about trying to pick out the four senses of of the analysis. Like it takes some work to do that, but you're we're not showing like we go to mass just because you have to. Like, no, this is something that who we are, this is our this is the relationship that we built, and it's important, and it's it's not a punishment, it's not like you have to do these things. Like, we're trying to teach them like this is awesome. And like these stories, the Bible stories are really cool. That's been really cool this week to see you really uh engaging with him. And now he's getting up first thing in the morning. He's like, I read about Saul, I read about David, I read about Goliath. You know, he's all excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

I think it's two things. I think it's a top-down and a bottom-up. You're speaking a lot of bottom up, but I think there needs to be clarity from those that are in charge of the church. If they want people to understand the authority and be obedient, there needs to be trend like a complete, like this is what the church teaches. And it can't be and I think we're like I said, I think we're seeing the residual effects of an ambiguity for so long that really just um it like forced people to go in these camps, which I think that if we get a little bit more clarity and more language that brings everyone together versus divides, um, I think that'll be helpful from the top, right? From from our from our priests, from our bishops, from the Pope, right? And then from the bottom up, it's it's it's part of what you're saying. It's just working on yourself. If you were a cradle Catholic who was uh brought up in a watered-down uh formation for in the 80s and 90s, you kind of need to seek out some things for yourself to understand why if you have an issue with a church teaching, go and see why the church teaches that thing. And what was it that Fulton Sheen said that most people don't really have an issue with what the church teaches because they don't know what she really teaches, they don't really know what the real church teaching is.

SPEAKER_00 37:02

So it's kind of like they definitely don't know the why behind it either.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Right. Instead of othering people, um, putting people into camps, putting yourself into it your own camp, really understand why the church teaches what she teaches and find that one thing that you have an issue with and look into it because it's very prideful to think you know better than an institution that was founded by Christ and that has been around for 2,000 years. Who do you think you are? And that's on either side, whether you are on where whether you're splintering off in SSPX and like we we will not even like count anything that happened after two, or if you are someone who thinks we should have women priests, or if you think you know that we should have, you know, anyone with any sexual proclivity to be um okay, right? Whichever side you're on, find the thing that you have an issue with with what the church herself teaches and find out why she teaches that thing. That's where you should start. Work on you. Don't put yourself in a camp, find your both, like find a way to find your both and if you lean one way, try to find your, you know, that other side um thing. So I think that it needs to be both at the same time, top down and bottom up. And that's how we'll find that truth in the middle. Because again, for so long, we've been living in this ambiguity where I think it's just forced people to go into camps, which is not okay. And so now we just need that clarity from especially with this SSPX stuff.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yes, but I think what we could do from the top down from that is if Poblio came out and and just said, Hey, if you want to do Latin mass, you can do it because that seems to be the next closest thing to what they want. But when it feels like this is not being allowed, then people are almost forced to kind of retreat into their site, like, well, they're they're attacking us. You almost get conspiratorial because it's not so right away. One of the easiest things he could do, and I always make this argument, I don't really hear too many people talk about it. We already have Byzantine Catholics, they're pretty almost like Orthodox, and it's pretty traditional, and there's no attacking them, right? And if we Pop Leo's doing a great job of having these dialogues with the patriarchs in the Orthodox Church, um, Patriarch Bartholomew's been there a bunch, they've had a lot of talks, and it's like the one form of the Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, which I've only been to once or twice twice. Like, I'm not like saying that that's necessary, but that should be a space for people when it feels like it's being othered, because that feels like it's othered, like okay, you're you're stuck in the past and you're not moving on, then people will just form these more extreme camps. So I think the solution is to have clarity up top, but it's also to have space for those people. Like, if every diocese had one spot where they had traditional mass, if if it's if it's not what it is, then it'll die out. But if it is of God, I mean that's a lot of the warnings that we heard in Acts. Like uh uh Gamamil, who is the the the the the rabbi who is one of the smartest in there, that's what he he told he told his people say hey if this Christianity thing is nothing, it'll just fade away. But if this is the church that was actually started by God, like woe to us. And that's the thing, it's like the the traditional Latin mass is the the mass for most of the time it made the most saints and and all these things. It's like when somebody feels like they're being attacked, then some people will just put up their defenses and dig in even more. That's then you have these splinter groups, yeah. So right away, a top-down thing that they could do is like uh it doesn't have to be mandated, but just have space for people who want to do that without them feeling like they're they're put in a camp. And same with people, they want guitar masses, great, let them do that, and no one's attacking you. But that's what your preference is, that's what your charism, that's your worship.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

As long as you are staying true to the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic, the rubrics, there's things that come with it that has to be followed. There is a huge spectrum there of ways that you can worship God, and I think that we don't know better than God, we don't know better than these authorities that that God has the wisdom of the church that has been passed on for 2,000 years, and I think that it's been really articulated over time, right? Because if you look at how each time a heresy popped up in the early church, it forced the church fathers to articulate with clarity what the church really teaches and and and argue about the perfect way to say it. And that's good. And that took multiple viewpoints and it took multiple, but it didn't change the truth, it articulated the truth in a better way so that that the faith can be more precise in language, more precise in in how um and how those truths were passed on to people at that time, especially that didn't read, couldn't read, you know, that they weren't literate. It was just to to truly understand. But this took this took um hours and years of our of of discussion and to to come down into an articulation of what who God is, which is so difficult. Think about that. The the human brain could a can a can like a dog really articulate what human who how humans are and how humans think and how human we can't expect, we're not going to get you gonna explain God, and then that is you don't understand God. You can't yeah, you can't. So it's it's just this understanding of we've been we need to trust that and again, if you don't understand a cheat teaching, instead of um coming out against it, look at why the church teaches that way, and you'll see that there was so much thought and discussion and um rationales behind every single church teaching. It's really beautiful, like you, it's an onion that you can't ever stop peeling. If you really want to get into what our faith teaches, that it'll take a lifetime. And and we've and we're standing on the shoulders of giants criticizing them at the same time when we should be looking. But that's what I mean though, too. Those in authority need to step up and be clear, be me be more clear in what the church teaches and why. And then we as the faithful need to be better at looking into our faith and drill really and truly understanding it and trying to live it out individually, not in camps, not in sides, and not not looking to be formed by the culture and formed by the formed by the splintered off groups that we want want to hear in our echo chambers. It should be we should be formed by by the truth itself that you know that can only be found in in God and and in a in a faith that has been preserved for so long. So look into what what the church teaches and why start with the teaching you might have the most difficulty with. Look into where that teaching came from, how how it how our church got there. And you can all find almost all of that in the catechism, you know, and and obviously in scripture.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

And I think right now, like a lot of where the divisions come from within the church is what you know, these liturgy wars. And I think that what I I do a good job in the book is trying to explain it because I dealt with this. Like when I first became Catholic, it was all about just God and me, like that that cross that that vertical line. But it's so much more when it's God and me and me and everybody else. In the center, there is Christ, and our our liturgy is the same way, whether that's traditional Latin Mass or Novers Odo, it is that it is a two part mass, right? It's the liturgy of the word, liturgy of the Eucharist. It's not just the Bible readings, but it's not just communion. It's a lead up of both. And what I describe in the book is that the church teaches the the three parts about what actually the Eucharist is. It is a sacrifice, right? And the other side is that it is a it is a sacred meal. It is the wedding supper of the Lamb. And what happens within the church, we have sides that are pushing one side or the other and not encompassing both, that it's just Calvary. And if you go, if you go to Mass and it's only Calvary, that's that's like just sad.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

It's just half of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

It's just half of it. That reverence needs to be there throughout throughout. But you're only catching half of what the Mass is. It isn't just crucified Jesus, it's the resurrected, glorified, forever Jesus, you know. So it is also, yes, a representation of what happened on the Last Supper in Calvary. But when you receive Jesus, it's it's the wedding supper of the Lamb, it's a sacred meal. So you have this the sacrifice on one side, right? You have the heavenly meal on the other, and what's holding it together in the middle is Jesus Himself, his true presence, you know, body, soul, blood, and divinity. But what happens, just like in all these heresies, all these trying to flatten it out to sides or true tribes, is that you're missing the fullness of it. Yeah. If it's just Calvary, you're missing the communion with other people and with God. And if you're just about it's just a meal, it's no big deal, it's just like a barbecue, then you're missing the reverence and a sacrifice. What what what I found is that there needs to be this, this it takes a lot more thinking about it, but you're you're missing the joy or you're missing the the awe of it. It needs to be a reverent intimacy where it's you're still not gonna, it's not gonna be sacrilege. There's still when it comes time to the consecration, you need to be prepared for that as well. But afterwards, like we're also called to leave joyful. Like there, there, there's a there's a triumphant entering into it, and then it shifts, right? There's this, there's this crescendo up and down of of the way that the mass unfolds. And if we only have half of the mass, we're not bringing everything to it. Then we're just having like, hey, this this execution over and over again. It's like, yeah, but then there's a purpose to that. Like we are called into communion with not only God, we get to literally receive him, and his blood is literally flowing in ours, but it's called now you're sent to go out and be filled with that joy and to be like, man, I just received God. Like, yes, he died, that stinks, but he's it's for a reason. I'm saved that way, and now I'm so united that these people are not just parishers, they're my brothers and my sisters. And I think if we could do a better job of having our bishops and top down to explain that instead of you can do that at each mass, like traditional mass can do a better job of having the joy, and some of the Norvus Ordos can do a better job of the referent, the reverence. Like we need to have it both. It doesn't have to be jumping and dancing and clapping. I think there could be joy without that too, and there could be reverence with without uh you know sour face saints, you know. There can be uh a way that we can best express the both and of the mass, the the liturgy of the word, the liturgy of the Eucharist, this both and uh uh of the mass. And I think that we can really grow if we can have a better way of articulating that and trying to show people that it's so much more when you are connected to the body of Christ.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Yeah, I think that's good.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

I think that's a good way to end. So this is our challenge is that where in your life are you seeing where you're collapsing the church, that you're onto the one side or the other, or you're looking at other people, like they're not.

SPEAKER_01 48:07

When you say collapsing, you mean flattening, flattening uh a deeper.

SPEAKER_00 48:11

Yeah, well, you know, is is that in the mass? It's a do you just see it as Calvary? Or is that, hey, you know, I'm more of just a justice kind of a person, or you know, or hey, it's all about the truth and nothing else matters. Like, so where where in your life are you being called right now? Hopefully, this episode is sparking you to start thinking about it. Not that we have it all together, but these are questions that I've been wrestling with because I I I I fell into some of these traps myself, and I'm learning, especially as somebody on the outside, that there's it's a more Christianity, not a less Christianity when we have the fullness of the both and of our faith. And being in a tribe isn't what they wanted from the very beginning. Like I said, I read the quote about Paul doesn't want division. Jesus's last prayer before he went to the cross was that we would be one, but it doesn't mean one in heresy, but one together in the body of Christ as sinners, being humble enough to know that maybe I don't everything, that I need to trust the church, and I need to trust my neighbor as well. I need to give them the benefit of the doubt and to facilitate those conversations so that we can all grow in the fullness of the faith. So something to think about for these upcoming weeks. I'm gonna continue to have these conversations as uh the book uh not gonna come out for six months or so, but I want to have these conversations because I'm I'm passionate about it because I've seen how much I was able to grow in my understanding and my faith and how I came to worship, not by watering it down or making it easier, but actually making it harder.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

And it's it's it's sad to see us splintering off into groups. And you know, I I don't we're supposed to be unified. What kind of testament is that to the world if we're divided?

unknown 49:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Amen. So if you found this conversation helpful, you want to follow on this journey, we appreciate you hit that subscribe button, like. We're all over social media, but we're gonna be sharing as my book gets closer Prophets and Guardians by Ave Maria Press. So if you like this conversation, get ready. There's gonna be a whole bunch more. So God bless you. Have a beautiful night.