Episode 130 City of Sanctuary

Today I am joined by two very special guests to discuss City of Sanctuary Maternity Stream. Katherine is a midwife and Wan is a woman seeking sanctuary. We discuss some of the barriers vulnerable women face seeking maternity care and some very simple ways we can put them at ease.

Want to know more?
There are some fantastic videos and resources for maternity services here
https://cdn.cityofsanctuary.org/uploads/sites/45/2022/11/MATERNITY-RESOURCE-PACK-24-10-22-ammended-links.pdf
https://maternity.cityofsanctuary.org/
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Maternity-care-in-the-UK-for-women-on-asylum-support-print-version_July_2021.pdf
https://www.leedsth.nhs.uk/a-z-of-services/leeds-maternity-care/meet-the-team/haamla-service/
Wan's football video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuEagll6op0

@maternity_CofS @wanabdullah_uk

Thank you all for listening,  My name is Florence Wilcock I am an NHS doctor working as an obstetrician, specialising in the care of both mother and baby during pregnancy and birth. If you have enjoyed my podcast please do continue to subscribe, rate, review and recommend my podcast on your podcast provider.
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Its easy to explore my back catalogue of episodes, I have a wide range of topics that may help you make decisions for yourself and your baby during pregnancy as well as some more reflective episodes on life as a doctor.
If you want to get in touch to suggest topics, I love to hear your thoughts and ideas. You can find out more about me on Twitter @FWmaternity & @TheObsPod as well as Instagram @TheObsPod and email me on TheObsPod@gmail.com Please also check out #MatExp matexp.org.uk for ideas about how...

Transcript

City of Sanctuary

Florence: [00:00:00] So I'm very excited today to welcome two brilliant guests to the podcast for what I hope is going to be a very interesting and useful conversation. So we have with us Katherine, who's a midwife and Wan who has had her baby in the English Maternity Services. And we're gonna talk a bit about City of Sanctuary.

So I, this whole thing came about because I saw a tweet about City of Sanctuary and the work they were doing with women seeking asylum and trying to make them feel more welcome and more cared for by maternity services. And that prompted me to get in touch with Katherine. And we've kind of [00:01:00] gone from there.

So Catherine, do you want to say a little bit about yourself? Hi. 

Katherine: Um, yes, thank you. So, uh, I am the project lead for the maternity stream within City of Sanctuary uk. Um, I am a midwife, I'm also a midwifery lecturer and also a PhD student. So I have lots of different hats, but the work that I'm here to talk about today is with the maternity stream of sanctuary.

Florence: Lovely. And Wan, would you like to tell us a bit about yourself? 

Wan: Hi everyone. Uh, my name is Wan. I am originally from Malaysia and I am an asylum seeker in UK since 2019. And I am, I am Mothers of eight Children's. And my last, uh, Not last. Hopefully not last. . I love babies. So my number [00:02:00] eight, born in uk. So I am, uh, expert by experience, uh, speaker, uh, specialize in mentality mental health, and I'm also an ambassador for City of Century uk.

Uh, my locations, uh, in Leeds thank 

Florence: you . Wonderful. And it's such a privilege to have you with us today. Uh, I'm so grateful to you for giving up your time. Katherine, would you like to tell us a little bit more about what is the maternity stream of City of Sanctuary? Because before I saw this tweet, I hadn't really come across this and I felt sad that I hadn't, because actually I do see quite a few women seeking sanctuary in my antenatal clinic and.

It looked like you had lots of really useful resources to share and experiences to share. So tell us a little bit more. 

Katherine: So, um, the maternity stream [00:03:00] is a national network of refugee charities. People with lived experience like one midwives, health workers, educators, and researchers, all working towards, um, common goal of building a welcoming and inclusive maternity system in the uk.

So it's, it's a group of people who have this shared, um, desire for women to have a holistically safe experience when they access maternity services in the uk. Um, because for lots of the people who we network with, their experience isn't always positive. So the women that we work with, I'll just um, sort of explain a bit about this term seeking sanctuary, just cause I know it can be a bit confusing.

So we use the term seeking Sanctuary to include any person who, um, is living in the uk who has, uh, is either an [00:04:00] asylum seeker, a refugee has been trafficked to the uk, is living under an irregular migrant status, perhaps is on sort of an expired visa. They may have no recourse to public funds. Um, so anybody who sort of fits under that umbrella of, um, a whole sort of, Group of different immigration labels and we don't tend to use the labels because it is quite dehumanizing to refer to people by their, um, immigration status.

So those are the women that, that we work with. The maternity stream was sort of came about cause there's a lot of work going on in this area with grassroots charities and organizations. So we have some really excellent charities in this country who are working with women, um, providing volunteered doula services, providing antenatal education for women seeking sanctuary [00:05:00] in different languages.

But it's a postcode lottery in terms of where those charities are working. Right. Some NHS um, services that are working really well for these women. Um, so specialist midwife routines and we have some interest from the professional bodies, so from R COG and the R C M to help improve the, the services for Women seeking Sanctuary.

But none of these groups really talk to each other, so the maternity stream sits in the middle. So we have people from all of those different sort of situations on our, on our steering group and yeah, working towards those collective 

Florence: goals. I love that, that they don't talk to each other because that's just so typical of so many things.

Yeah. Um, unfortunately you mentioned that specialist teams, and I know one when we talked in preparation for this, you talked a little bit about the [00:06:00] Haamla midwife team. Yes. Would you like to tell us a bit 

Wan: more When I. First, uh, arrived in UK last three and a half years to be exactly ago. I was 10 week pregnant.

And because it's very long journey, 13 hours started like I have miscarriage on the next day. So the first impressions that I had in my mind that time I was scared because I don't have money, uh, like in my country, if you are a foreigner and we not even, uh, process our asylum at that time. Uh, so it, it it's a lot of things that going on, the anxieties super high, but somehow we have, uh, borderline interviews

so we managed to go to emergency and the doctor in the Hillingdon Hospital very nicely, uh, told that they can accept that. So it's, it was impressions. I was really impressed with the NHS that's come to [00:07:00] know that. About nhs, uh, in, in uk. So what happened? Uh, I've been, um, uh, I've been struggling actually with my mental health for quite long, but then I come to knowledge about the existing service in UK specifically.

They have a. Special team. I was lucky when, when, uh, my pro asylum process been, uh, in the process I've moved to Leeds. Yeah. And then, uh, that during the pandemic when I, uh, when I know that I'm pregnant again, I was super happy, but I was really scared as at the same time because I don't want to miscarriage.

I, I really, really try hard to, to get pregnant. So that's come to happen. My gp, uh, have a midwife, a a normal midwife from the gp, but then because they saw that I have a history of mental health and I have also a letters assessment that I had from, uh, from the GP from previous area that I stayed. So they told me that I [00:08:00] will be in the perinatal mental health team and I will get a specialist.

Come happen to know this specialist midwife is, is only a available in Leeds it's called Haamla midwife. Mm-hmm. So I feel so grateful. Even though it was a lockdown, everybody wasn't really prepared on, on the situation, to be honest. When the pandemic hit all of us and or well, actually, so I was really feeling, uh, that having Haamla midwife that time have helped me a lot because I'm asylum seekers.

I don't know. Maternity service available looks like. And also the midwife term's also so new to me, we are not really familiar with that, but ham midwife have a specialty to deal with migrant womens and especially asylum seekers. So they helped me a lot with my immigrations, uh, because some of the moms didn't aware that when you are pregnant and you are asylum seeker, you are [00:09:00] entitled for extra five pounds.

And then also you are entitled for maternity grant. And also there is a, a long procedure during the stages of the pregnancy. The, the Haamla midwife will have helped me to inform my grant help to inform home office, all this proceeding. I would not ever know if, if I didn't get this Haamla midwife. So I think it's, it's very, it's a very good, uh, sharing today that I, I should share about ham services and, and I believe there's, um, uh, not all midwife aware about this service.

How to deal, especially the migrant woman. Yeah. 

Florence: So, so much more than sort of in inverted commas, just the clinical care, much more holistic, much more information to help you with life as well as pregnancy. 

Wan: Yeah, because it's not, it, it, it's not sad. It's actually a realistic experience. I could not stop my. Myself to keep [00:10:00] sharing about the, the Haamla midwife.

I did a few and not few lots of presentations or sharing my experience, especially in maternity and being pregnant and struggling with mental health in uk. So every time when I talk about Haamla midwife, for example, to the final year student midwife, uh, they really feel filled. Opportunity to hear to my story is a good, uh, story because it can help them lessen the anxiety of when they're going to start work by, by preparing themselves with the knowledge because it's, I know it's quite challenging to be a midwife.

Uh, There, there is an example, a real example through my experience that my midwife can do and some more. It's during the pandemic, it's, it is during of, uh, of, of, of nothing being prepared. But my midwife managed to do it because she have a knowledge. She, she have, uh, uh, she been trained, uh, I believe in, in, in [00:11:00] such a way to, to deal with, with a migrant woman.

Uh, and also how she, uh, she led me to, what is the word? Pardon of my English actually. So , it's fine. You're 

Florence: doing 

Wan: amazingly because, uh, the, it's not only the maternity. But it's also on the massage. You know, she even sent me, sent me a nurse who to do the, I forgot the terms, but it's something like, I'm laying down on my bed and then she just, uh, ignite the energy inside my body, says all whole body be becoming warm because I told her that I'm always having the a call because, you know, I'm not used to weather in uk.

So I, I feel like I have to wear double, double jumper, even I in the, her room and Wears thick thick, sock. So she have, uh, make me appointment to this special lady who, who help [00:12:00] me to go through the therapy. I really forgot what's the name, but there is a specific term they help moms during the pregnancy. And also it helped me to focus, focus on my baby.

And also she referred me to Children's Center. I joined, uh, uh, what they call, um, antenatal class. So all this thing is a privilege. Yes, in my country we not, we don't have the opportunity to learn about this. It's only for people who have money. But I feel so honored that, uh, I've been given, even I'm asylum seeker, I've been treated, I can say my team actually treat giving me a first class, even though it's a during hard time of everyone.

But I receive a first class, uh, treatment and care. 

Florence: That's, that's fantastic to hear. I think, Katherine, you mentioned about postcode lottery. That, and it, it comes across from you one that [00:13:00] you were. Expecting you didn't know were you gonna have to pay, how would you be able to access that emergency care when you sadly had the miscarriage?

And I know there's quite a lot of concern about n H S services, perhaps charging women seeking Sanctuary, and that being a real safety concern because we know these are some of the most vulnerable, um, women when you look at things like Mbrrace reports, that actually these are the women that really, really need care.

Katherine, I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about the funding and postcode lottery 

Katherine: issues. Absolutely. So I think there are two, there are two issues there, um, that you mentioned, Florence, so the f the the money issues. So maternity, maternity charging. So, Maternity care is free for [00:14:00] all people at the point of access.

However, if you have, um, sort of an insecure immigration status, so if your current asylum claim has been rejected, or if you are on the u in the UK on a visa that expires, um, you may be liable to be charged for your maternity care. And this happens after the baby's been born. You will receive a very large, often bill and women in their community.

They know that this can happen, and it's such a deterrent to accessing maternity care because there's so much fear around having to face this charge. Even if that woman is now a refugee or has now been granted asylum seeker status, they still have this fear of being charged. Cause then it made that they've accessed care from the NHS whilst they were in a less secure position.

And that by presenting [00:15:00] to the service that you are then gonna face a historic charge and they're going to sort of chase you up. So that's a really significant barrier, um, for women accessing maternity care, who are seeking Sary in the uk. And the other thing that you mentioned was the postcode lottery.

So, Wan was lucky really, that she was, um, dispersed to Leeds cause they have this incredible team, the Haamla midwifery service who offer continuity of care and their specialist trained train midwives for caring for women from minority ethnic groups, women who don't speak English as the first language, and women from a variety of different migrant status backgrounds.

This is a very unique service. I want to sort of, um, make that really clear that there isn't any other service in, in the UK currently that is quite as good as the Haamla team that I'm aware of it maybe that there are in their infancy [00:16:00] and that they're, they're just starting. But in general, women who are seeking sanctuary, they access maternity care in the same way.

Other women and they go along a very similar care pathway. This might be a good moment to talk a little bit about the barriers to maternity care for women's seeking sanctuary. So I've, I've sort of touched about on n H s charging, there's also a lack of information about what you're entitled to. So Wan said that the, of midwives told her that she could access this extra payment every week that she could access the maternity grant.

That there were extra things that she was entitled to because she was now pregnant. And that's really important because people seeking sanctuary are surviving on very small amounts of money and lots of people are living in a state of poverty. Lots of women seeking sanctuary might be apprehensive and fearful of people in positions of authority because although we think we are [00:17:00] a friendly face behind a desk at a GP surgery, a midwife in a uniform with a badge, you, you are a member of.

Is what is sort of seen as an authority and a a government figure. And it's quite easy to associate you as the midwife with the home office and with everything that that represents. So that's something to be aware of because the woman might be fearful that it will affect her asylum claim and it will affect her immigration status.

What she discloses to you as the midwife and what she feels able to to talk to you about. Mm-hmm. , lots of women aren't aware about the maternity service in the uk and that in the UK you are recommended to book as early as 10 weeks gestation. But lots of women, if they've had babies in other countries, that's completely different.

Um, and it might be that care is organized very differently and that you don't see a midwife or that midwives don't exist and that it's all, um, [00:18:00] obstetric led. Women have a significant barrier. When we think about dispersal policies and the accommodation that women are often housed in, the accommodation can be really poor.

And we've had quite a lot of reports recently of accommodation that's sort of been invested with vermin. There's got considerable damp issues, women being housed in, um, apartments that are up four flights of stairs with no working lift toddlers, and they're pregnant and they've gotta get up the stairs with the shopping and the pram and everything.

Women are living in hotels, which is not glamorous. The women living in hotels have no control over when they eat their meals, over their nutritional intake, over the choice of what they have to eat. Um, they're living in very cramped conditions and it's completely suboptimal to be living in that situation when you are pregnant.

So as a result of those, those barriers in [00:19:00] terms of accommodation and dispersal, lots of women don't know where to go to access the maternity services. And if they do know, they may not have an a, a way of getting there. So they don't have access to or knowledge about the bus. They might not know about sort of being able to claim travel back and how that all works.

So that makes it really difficult. Women can be dispersed in pregnancy up until the guidelines are very sort of gray because I think technically it's not supposed to be past 34 or 36 weeks, but we know that women have been dispersed up until their due dates. And some women have even found when they've left the hospital with their newborn baby that they've been dispersed whilst they've been in the, in the hospital and they have to move from the hospital to a different location.

So that's a significant barrier. . And if we think about continuity of care and ensuring that antenatal care isn't broken up, we can see why. Obviously it's, it's really significant that women have a good con [00:20:00] continuum of care during the pregnancy. So there are lots of different things that act as barriers.

Florence: It's kind of like a massive mountain to climb and, and we haven't even mentioned language. So yeah. That was the next, and you, yeah. You touched on, on, um, not speaking English, and I asked you one a little bit about how you felt about using interpreters, because I find this as an obstetrician, um, it's difficult to get someone.

Will translate, it's usually on the phone. And then there's also the difficulty of potentially it being a man, which can be quite difficult when you are discussing intimate and, and personal details. So I don't know, Wan, if you would elaborate a little bit on, on your experience of using an interpreter or, or how that felt for, for [00:21:00] you.

Yes, of course. 

Wan: Um, when I came to UK last three and a half years ago, uh, my English. It's not really even rich, average. I really struggle. I, but I really working hard on myself, especially on English, because I found that, uh, during using the service of interpreter, um, because I'm, I, I understand English, but I just not always frequently talk, so I can't really talk.

Yeah. So I, I, I have a, a stigma in my mind that what if I say grammar wrong? You know, I just feel like assessing, judging myself, you know, if I say that I will, I will shaming myself. So that's why I don't have confidence to. Talk in English. Yeah. But somehow I really put an effort to learn because when I experience with the interpreter, they, uh, not really explain what I really mean, because I understand, uh, the, what the people asking.

But because I have the fear, then I [00:22:00] decided that, um, I will drop the interpreter. I don't want to use their service. And then I will try to work it because I found that English conversations, it's much easier to learn and pick up by listening and speak, listen and speak. The conversation is compared to writing.

So my mentor, uh, from antenatal class Rose Macarthy always say one, nobody going to judge you. As long as we understand what you're saying and you understand what we, we are telling. That is fair enough. That's fine. So, because I, I found that also sometimes they give a male interpreter and we are pregnant woman.

Uh, it's not really suitable. And also some of the. Terms. That is because back my background, my religious background, my culture background, we're not really talking to the men about all these secret things about womens. What about if you give a male interpreter? So it's really a inappropriate, so I'm also even, uh, share, uh, when, uh, [00:23:00] somebody do the research on the interpreter that if possible please provide us woman who have experience in pregnancy.

Because sometimes the terms that the feeling, the pain, like having back pain is different when you are pregnant, not while you are not pregnant. So if someone who have been through a pregnancy, she interpret. In incorrect way, she know how to tell with without, without have to, uh, assume how it's feel because pregnant women have a different kind of pain.

So that's why, uh, having an interpreter who experiencing, um, uh, in pregnancy is really a big significant to help the migrant mothers. Yeah. 

Florence: And I know also that there's some differences in terms of, I've, I've discovered this from women, that some of the things I want translated there aren't direct translations because the way it's described in that different language [00:24:00] is totally different.

Meaning, or, yeah. Or, or, or culturally just not discussed. Yes. So it it's a big deal, isn't it? Language. So you mentioned, um, to me the last time we spoke a little bit about also the importance of. Human touch. I think when you had your miscarriage, how the nurses behaved to you so that even though you didn't speak the language and you were anxious and fearful and just arrived, You picked up from their body language and touch how, how they cared for 

Wan: you.

I, I would like, uh, to remember she's a very kind hearted person. I don't know whether she's a midwife or she just an emergency nurse. She's wearing a uniform black, dark blue uniform. But I was really reserved that time and I, a lot of [00:25:00] things because I'm struggle with my mental health. I'm also in the domestic abuse relationship, so, Faith's reaction have triggering her.

When I was laying down on the bed, she just like, uh, when I, uh, when I was miscarriage, I ha I have a little bleeding. So they asked me to have a bad rest. So what happened? After a few hours, I start to have lot, lot of blood. And then, uh, she, the moment that, uh, she asking my ex-partner to come to care for me, and then my ex-partner just, just says things that's not supposed to say.

And then that time she look into my eyes and she hold my hand and she told me, don't worry, you are safe now and you are in uk. I just have no ideas what she telling, what she talking about, because I didn't tell anything. I, I, I, I'm not even talk, but she recognizing from my eyes and from our situations that what make me [00:26:00] feel.

That trigger interest in my mind. So that's why when, when even my, my midwife, when I got, uh, pregnant, my midwife, uh, she is a, is a, what I call social need to be applied Yeah. During that time because it's locked down. But she's prepared with, with her gear, all these things. But somehow, uh, when, when she, she just give a care look, she don't have to touch me.

Mm-hmm. She, she just give me a look and, and look into my eyes. We have a, a language as. I don't know whether we can call it a sign language, but we have the language that she care for me. Mm-hmm. And that's the moment my gut drop. I feel I can trust this lady. I feel that, uh, um, she, she, she make me safe. She can help me to, to, to not miscarriage again, for example.

And she also know how to speak the language of, of simple simplicity. Mm-hmm. Because she know I could not [00:27:00] understand the medical terms or whatsoever in English of bombastic English, but she, she managed to use a simplest English. That's why I said Haamla midwife is very specialized. And, and she also even explain why I have to take this medicine in, in, in a very simple way.

I like the way that she, she do. Yeah. But the most important thing. Is the look, even though you cannot touch me during the pandemic, but she have the care look. And I think, uh, this is all, most of the midwife that I've been, uh, deal with, they have this kind heart Katherine as well. They have the kind heart.

Yeah, because Rose Maccartthy my mentor always say kindness, have no lang, no language, kindness, have no colors, kindness, have, have no religious. So this is the words that all. When I talk, when I present, when I share my story with a midwife student, I, I plan the ideas [00:28:00] in their mind that kindness is the biggest point that you have to explore with you.

You already in the midwife line mean that you are kindhearted person. I, even myself, applying for being doula as hopefully I will be doula, settle by next year, and I'm really looking forward. If I give, give, get, get my status, I might be applying for midwife because it's such a, I'm working in maternity with a vulnerable woman's become my passion 

Florence: that that comes through so much.

Yeah, no, but I love that idea of, of like kindness. No, it doesn't have a language. It's, it's just kindness. Yeah. That's brilliant. I, I love that you mentioned to me also about how sensitively the midwife. Talk to you about fgm and definitely, I think that's something that I find [00:29:00] challenging because as Catherine's just discussed, we're already seen as potentially authority figure and someone that you don't necessarily want to trust with information.

And then we're starting to talk to you about F G M and the fact that it's illegal in this country and we want to potentially examine you to see will it have an impact on giving birth. So tell us a little bit about how, how they talked to you about. 

Wan: Yes. It's very interesting topic actually, because I first know about FGM when I came to UK in my country, it's normal.

Um, it, it's something that been practices through religious, I can say like that. But when I came to uk, I've been told about that and I was like, uh oh, okay. And then, uh, when my midwife, uh, [00:30:00] that time asked me to come to St. James, uh, to do the check checker on myself because, uh, she, the way that she approached me is the things that I like to share because she know it's a sensitive issue, uh, for, uh, I, I, I'm, I'm born as a Muslim, so we, we are very reserved womans, especially our private part.

So she didn't touch even about the religious, but she mentioned that one. Uh, because you, this is your eight pregnancy. So we have, uh, a proceedure to, uh, to check, uh, your parts. I don't know whether I'm using the correct terms or not. Pardon me on this, but, uh, she want to know what is the measure, measure of that risk of, of my fgm.

Mm-hmm. So she have a, she even, uh, asked me whether I'm allowed to, uh, whether she allowed to have a, a midwife student with her. I say, okay, that's no problem because she don't, because I'm already high risk mom that time because it's that my pregnancy. [00:31:00] But the way that she approached me using the medical terms and care, again, care about my, my health care, about how I'm going to give birth because I obviously want to give birth normal.

All of my children, even I have a twin pregnancy before I also delivered normal. So I want to keep continue. So that's why she, she using that point. Yeah. We we're going to do a check on you for this because we want to make sure everything is okay. It's a high risk because I might be, have extra bleeding.

all these simple, simple terms. So I, I drop, uh, I, I drop my, um, the block that I have in my mind is sensitive is something secret. I just, okay. I just feel comfortable because, you know, when you are stressed, your body is all hardened. Mm-hmm. . So that's what I think the specialist, may she have, she, she deserve to get the, the terms for her, her position, specialist midwife, because she, yeah.

She know how to approach and then she make me relax. That's, [00:32:00] that's the biggest, uh, uh, wall that every migrant mothers that I've been around with, they're scared and they become tense. They're getting a, uh, additional pain just because they don't trust this person, because sometime the person didn't show the.

you know, we, we, we can feel, especially when mother, we are quite sensitive, have a mother instinct so we can feel, we can feel the vibes, the energy. If someone pretending or someone don't like, and someone, we don't speak English . So, so this, this lady might be judgment to me and then she might be just want to finish a job or something like that.

Yeah. But, but that's not happened. That's why I, I like it, uh, to, to share my positive story to, to, to the, to the community. Yeah. 

Florence: No, that, that caring and kindness really, really comes through. And I think that's so true. I, I can think of women seeking sanctuary that I've [00:33:00] seen in my clinic, and I sometimes feel awful because I've got to ask them all sorts of questions about how they come to be there, and.

Because I'm trying to find, find out are they safe and are they feeling like they are now in a place of safety, or is there still a threat? You know, is there, like you say, domestic violence or have they been trafficked? Um, and I find it really difficult because I feel like they're, they're gonna feel like I'm questioning why, why do I need all the answers to all these questions?

And, but that you, you help reassure me that if I do it in a. Kind and caring way, they will pick up that I'm doing it to try and help them and, and build that trust rather than, but can I, I just need to know all these, all these things. 

Wan: Can I say one [00:34:00] more thing? Yeah, of course. I think, I think, uh, what my social worker did to me also is a good ideas to Yes.

How? She always have the time before she come and knock my door. I always pick her from my window. She have a notebook and I always, when she came, she will always start a conversation about my country. Yes, there is a time that she talk about my street food. I was surprised how she know about that. Yes. You know, in the, it'll breaking the eyes that she put in an effort to, to spend a little time.

And I think every, every professional who, who so uh, doing this kind of service should have a moment because I, I believe you have all the information on your screen. Will this come from I, I, I, I hope I'm not too demanding asking about this, but to help us to feel safe, to feel comfortable, to trust you, to share.

This is really important because you just, [00:35:00] I the, like, the street food is, uh, food is ev everybody like to talk about food and I think it's helping to relax. When you're talking about foods, your, your, your, you don't ha you don't have to be, uh, stressed when you're talking about food, when she's talking. Uh, uh, your food is very nice.

I love spicy food. And then it says me, oh, she have interest on me. Yes. She, she, she even do some research, uh, know about my, my food country. So this is, this is really a, a, a small point, but it's a biggest, uh, breakdown, uh, uh, to break the wall of, of fear to, yes. To start to breaking the eyes or something like that.

Yeah. 

Katherine: I think it's a lovely example that you'd give one of how we can better humanize the care that we give. Yes. And not see everything as a tick box. Tick box, um, in terms of all the things we have to do because I think midwives particularly can look, I'm overwhelmed with all of the things you have to do and actually when you are given the opportunity to [00:36:00] build a relationship with someone, and that's where continuity of care comes in and is optimal.

If you know the person, if you know the midwife, if you know the obstetrician and you've been able to build up that rapport with them and they know you and they know the kind of foods that you like, or they've taken the time to sort of learn those things, that trusting reciprocal relationship is so much more likely to develop.

When it's somebody that you know, and it's not someone who is rushed, who you've never met before, isn't using a translator, you know, it's, it's huge. 

Wan: Mm-hmm. And, and I think, um, if I, if I can tell also about, um, about the story about Great Britain, about England, about uk. So we came here normally because we want to feel safe and, uh, like, uh, we don't know about, about uk, about Great Britain.

If nobody, if all of you didn't come to our country and [00:37:00] say, talk about the, you are a great country, all this thing. And most of womens is my back in the third, third country, uh, is vulnerable. We, we don't have, uh, the opportunity to talk to, to even know our rights, to be a daughter, to be a mother, to be a wife, what we know.

Since small, we've been planting with the ideas true religiously, which is benefit to other people. And then I think when I came to UK and I met all this beautiful person with a kind heart, I, I didn't deny that some, some of others migrant woman didn't experience, but. What I want to share today is the positive that I'm lucky.

Mm-hmm. I'm grateful, and I think I deserve that because I've been suffer a lot. Long years, my first daughter already 20 years, so I've been struggle a lot. So I feel alive, but the, the way they show the interest, like Katherine say, make me feel like human back in my country. When you go to the hospital, any, any kind of, [00:38:00] uh, call health, uh, health bad stuff, they.

After money. That's what I can say. They don't bother about how to, uh, greet you. Even, you know, here, even a bus driver called me love. I was like, first time, Hey, why he call me love? It's so, it's so shameful for me to accept. But then when I observe, when the other lady came also, he say, hi, love. Oh, this is your kid thing.

So this is the, the things that we don't experience in our country. But when we come here, that's the main point that we're looking. We want to feel safe. We want to really feel the real great Britain that who've been told, who've been spread, who've been, uh, who've been advertised, , uh, in our country. But this is the things that I always, uh, share with a professional.

It's important to, to first, uh, make us feel safe. And your kindness is, is not charge chargeable. There's no cause to be kind. Yes, yes. . 

Florence: [00:39:00] Yeah. That's so true. It's within you, . Yeah. And I, and I, I think you are very right. It, it can take us maybe seconds to. I think you said last time we spoke, do your homework and, and that I think, oh, this person's from Malaysia or, or in my case I see quite a lot of women from Albania, this person from Albania.

Actually, I need to find out a little bit about Albania. Like you say, what do they eat? What's their Yeah, trying the food, what's Yeah, exactly. . So, so that you've got that instant human connection. And I think you told me a lovely story about your ambulance driver and, and the connection you made through food as well.

That, that it just made a difference in you getting to know that person that was part of your maternity journey. 

Wan: It's, it's so much. I, I, when I remember now I have a smile on my face because I struggle with my mental health. Very bad. [00:40:00] During the pregnancy, I got triggered wi with men voice, like voice. Even my neighbor voice can trigger me.

I've been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, lower and depressions and also pain and anxiety attack, but it worse during the pregnancy. So what happened? I was in the she accommodations. So, you know, I said during pandemic, everybody have their own stress level, how to cope with it. But I just, out of nothing, just triggered

So I, what happened? I always call 9, 9, 9. That's the only number that I remember. My midwife always told me, remember one, if you don't remember other number, just remember 9 99 because she also gave me the midwife, uh, emergency number. But I don't recall all those things when I'm in the panic situation. So 9 99 and then the ambulance driver.

Most of every week I can tell I went to St. James's. And then the ambulance drivers, the same driver, who, who, who picked me from my, uh, from my share accommodations. And [00:41:00] then there is one lady, she, uh, she come across when we are about to out, when she check my, my blood pressure, all these things is quite high. Uh, so I have to go to the, uh, emergency for, for, for monitoring.

So she saw my street food in the jar. So she just said, oh dear, I went to your country last time. Can I just have a chance to smell it? I was like, oh, really? Do you like it? Oh, I love it. And then she just suddenly, I just feel like my panic or my anxiety just. I just like, you just, this is a real thing happening.

You know, when, when she opened the jar and she smell it, she say, oh, it's really, bring me back to the memory. Even three, four years ago, she went to my country. But, but you see how a food in a small jar can, can help her, uh, uh, bring the memory and can help my mental health. , I was panicking. Drop. It's just like something, I'm not even paving panic at all.

So [00:42:00] this is, this is the human things, the language that is, you don't have to put effort to, to, to have a, to, to have a PhD to learn to know how to talk the language. Yes, 

Florence: yes. That's brilliant. You mentioned your P T S D there, and I'd love you to tell people the story about, um, your doctor suggesting that you try something new.

Yes. 

Wan: Oh, this 

is 

Florence: also interesting part you with your P T S D. 

Wan: Yes. The most interesting part of ev of, of all, uh, when I, uh, been with my perinatal mental health team, I have a, a psych, psych doctor, consultant. What you call, if I say correctly, pardon me on the terms. No, that's right. So I have a care coordinator, I have a social worker, I have a specialist midwife.

It's a really excellent team. So what happened? Uh, I have a consultation. Sometimes she visit me with a social distance. Sometime we have over the zoom. [00:43:00] Well, during the session, during the therapy, uh, because. Quite, uh, chronic that time when I was pregnant, uh, having nightmare was of every night. So she told me that normally what I can try is to try something, uh, that I never tried, I never did in my life.

Because, uh, post-traumatic stress disorder, uh, passion normally have reputations or flashback of the bad memories that they had in their brain, in their mind. Mm-hmm. The, the deck keep flashing. That's why it be traumatized. So what happened? Uh, when I give birth to my son, I think my son, just like two man or treatment, I was in the group called rainbow Heart Group from Woman Health Matters.

I saw a leaflet about, uh, football and then it's really a threat. My, uh, interest because I saw, uh, childcare provided and transportation provided, and this is really [00:44:00] something that I've been looking and some more football. I was 43 years old that time in my life. I never kick a ball. I don't know how to handle the ball even, but I said, that's it.

I'm going to try what I, what my doctor said, whether it's true or not. So I went there for the first time, or with a few moms from my antenatal group. Yeah, I, I managed to influence them to come with me. . Lovely. So, so they, we all, first, we, we, we, we, we, we, there, we saw the ball and we just looked to each other.

And then, uh, the coach, uh, said for, we need to do warmup, all this thing for, for the beginning. And the first kick that I did, I didn't kick the ball. I just rolling on the grass and the other mom also tried to catch the ball. I'm not even kicking. She also rolling on the grass. Everybody laughing. The, the, the proper sessions is turned to the laughing sessions.

So everybody just [00:45:00] laugh and laugh and that's the first memory ever that I captured in my mind. And since that day, we've been two years. Since that day, I never stopped talking about football for, it's, it's helping me because I'm on medications, but it's also helping me a natural remedy. You know, I'm, yeah, I, I I create a new memories and I, I, I have come to help and I able to have a, to socialize with other moms and also I, I have a free, happy hormone without the chemical thing.

So yes, that's, that's the best thing that I, I, I become an ambassador for Holbeck Moor football club now, and my coach last year have, uh, given me a chance to have my own mother's team. So that's the biggest achievement that I achieved last year and all this mom, we are not giving you, uh, like a stricter rules or whatsoever.

You can just come, even there is a mother from Eritreia. [00:46:00] She just kick a ball with the dress because she never wear a pen before. Whatever you comfort the ball with. We just went to experience the, the, the feeling of the happy hormone. That that is my objective. It's not about to be a professional footballer, but it's about how you can do your physical exercise.

You can help with your mental health and you can have fun. That's the main thing. Yeah. 

Florence: Af after we last spoke, I watched your video, which I will put a link in the program notes. Thank you. And it was just totally brilliant and, and the release, you know, people were saying and that you told me about, about you can take out your frustrations, you can kick the ball, you can scream your head off and nobody cares.

And what an amazing thing that is. And so enjoyable, like you say, fun. You are just so inspirational. , 

Wan: I think, you know, we, 

Katherine: I just say how inspirational [00:47:00] you are cause. I know you've said it, but I, I want to make sure that it comes across on the podcast how amazing you are. Um, Wan was on our course that we ran with the maternity stream.

We ran, ran a sanctuary maternity course, which was giving women with lived experience the tools to use their stories, um, to enact positive change within the maternity sector. And Wan used this as an opportunity to develop the football team, um, and the mother's football team that she, she talked about.

So women. All around the area can access this, um, amazing football team. They don't have to pay anything. They get their transport provided. They get childcare provided they can, um, have football boots provided. Sports bras. You can play like wan said in whatever you want to wear, skirts, hijabs, whatever. And it's about physical health and mental health.

And when, I just think it's amazing, not, not only did [00:48:00] you find football and love it for yourself, but you are now a pioneer of it for so many other women, and that's amazing. Oh, 

Florence: thank you so much. It totally is. I sent, I sent your video to my daughter who plays football and she was blown away. She thought it was absolutely amazing.

So I, I hope that lots of other people emulate and copy your idea because Yes, it's incredible. And that kind of brings us on a little bit. Katherine touched on there that you'd, you'd done some training and I mean, you've got a very powerful voice. Wan, and I know you've done some training, um, as a peer supporter.

Um, do you wanna tell us a bit more about 

Wan: that? Yeah, I, I first, uh, been discovered actually, Rose McCarthy. She's really a big, uh, contributor to [00:49:00] wherever I am because when I just give birth to my son, uh, December, 2020 and January, 2021, rose have offered me to join a refugee council, peer support group. So I say Rose, I don't know all this thing.

I don't know whether I can talk or not, but she told me that it's okay. We will give you a training even, uh, uh, in that training. Uh, she's also helped us how to do the presentation during, during, during the slide and even the slide that I've been using is, From that peer support training. So through the day, I found that, um, talking is my superpower.

So I think that, uh, through my voice, uh, I can reach out to the community because I've been receiving, uh, lot, lot of beautiful memories, and I've experimented by myself, this type of expert by experience. It's not coming just by that it's coming with effort and lot, lot of hard work that I do to [00:50:00] myself because I'm still in my healing journey and I, I try to implement all what my parliamental mental health team did.

All the training that I've been enjoying the mentality course also learn, I learn a lot, uh, on to speak on the public speaking. Even, uh, in the politics way to the Parliament, I have, uh, geared up myself. I level up to give my service to the community because for migrant womans, especially asylum seeker, most of people, when they listen to my talk to my story, they just.

Question, did she got her status? I say, no, I'm still asylum seeker. But why you are so daring to talk because I have found my voice. You know, you are right. You have right to talk if you are asylum. So this is the things that, uh, I think lead by example is the best thing to do because people, especially moms who don't speak English, they, they know my English is broken somehow.

My grammer is but I still talk. I don't mind. I don't care. . So that's why they found the [00:51:00] courage to come to me. Even they cannot, they cannot say to the person directly, but I become their peer support. They just come to me privately, message me, privately, meet me to have a coffee, all these things. So that's, I feel that I found my, my purpose.

I, I'm in the right. I doing this because it's in my heart, and I think by helping others make me happy. So this is also things that I've explored during my therapy with my doctor to do something that I love and I, I, I also becoming to embrace and appreciate my talent. I cannot write in English. I di dyslexic.

I have difficulty in reading, but I can talk. So the voice has become my superpower. Then I hope that, uh, even though with my broken English, everybody could understand and pardon me for that, I'm still improving. Uh, yeah. Let's, let's do this work together. Mm. 

Florence: I love the voices. Your [00:52:00] superpower. That is just brilliant.

And I think, yeah. Uh, you know, you are incredible what you've achieved. When you have just said you came to the UK in, I think you said 2019. and yes. And you know, not only have you learned English, had a baby gone through all these experiences adjusted to living in a new country, but on top of that, you've done all these other things in terms of finding your voice, your football team and everything.

It's, it's absolutely incredible. 

Wan: Um, can I, can I add one thing I always share with moms, we came here with all. Obstacles with all the hardness. It's not easy to reach in this land, in, in this place. So don't sabotage ourself by stuck with [00:53:00] our situations, with our circumstances here. Look out, reach for help if you need it.

Because if we already come this far, don't waste it. This is especially moms in, in back. My background, my culture. We, our, our job as a mom is always a double, double standard. We just a small thing. Nobody appreciate mom. But when I join all this charity organization in uk, they have boosted my level up. I'm amazing.

I'm an incredible mom and no one can do much, can do better than a mother. A mother is nurturing a human, being a happy mom is a happy children's. So wake up. This is a wake up call to all the migrant womens who hear this podcast because we are been so far. We are here now. Let's together be the best version of us.

Never regret for being whoever we. 

Florence: That's a very [00:54:00] amazing message. Definitely. I feel like we're coming to the end and I usually end my podcast with a, a zesty bit, a bit that we want people to really take away and, and remember. Katherine, I don't know if you want to talk a bit about what resources the City of Sanctuary Maternity Stream has and how people can get involved in the maternity stream or do things to improve things for women seeking sanctuary in their area.

Katherine: Sure. So we have, um, a lot of resources on our website, including a, um, resource pack, which you can order, you can order them in for your maternity department. We also have an award accreditation scheme, so your antenatal class, your maternity department can apply to be awarded a maternity service of [00:55:00] sanctuary or you can apply to be working towards it.

And we can support you to make small changes within your guidelines, within your policies, within the way your care is organized to be able to sort of work towards that sanctuary award. So that's sort of one thing that you can do. I would say just educate yourself, like read about the issues facing women seeking sanctuary.

There's online training you can do, just don't sort of shut your mind to it. It can feel overwhelming because there's so many different statuses. There's so many different financial support pockets that people are entitled to. Maternity action is a really great website if you, um, are supporting anybody who may be liable to charging, I would say as well, remember that as a midwife or an obstetrician, you have power in just by being a midwife or an obstetrician.

You can write letters to the home office to stop a woman being dispersed. You can write letters to stop women being detained or deported. Um, so don't forget that power that you have [00:56:00] as a healthcare professional. And then for me, I would say that the UB bit, um, which Wan has very much touched on is be kind.

Because kindness really does save lives, and we can all do that. It, it's not gonna take any time for us to just be kinder. 

Florence: Amazing. And Wan? Yes. I dunno if you want to add to that. . . 

Wan: I think I had, I talk a lot already, but, uh, that's it. I think everyone who be in the path of midwife, they're really born gifted with a kind heart.

And, uh, it's, it's a shame if you did not utilize the kindness that you have inside you naturally. So it, it's something, uh, that I always believe, uh, treat others like as you want to be treated. Mm-hmm. . So this is the, the point that you see. I'm a lost [00:57:00] mother. I struggle a lot with my life, but it's just a small glance.

I met with this beautiful midwife with my perinatal team. All along. I'm I, I, it's just like a flip. My life just been twist, you know, this is, this is the biggest turning point in my life. While my pregnancy, even though I'm high risk, I took the risk and I didn't regret any single day because I have the opportunity to meet with all these beautiful persons and it will be always my pleasure to share my positivity in my maternity to others people.

And, and I hope people really can, can be open-minded, uh, in receiving, uh, asylum or migrant womans because we didn't come here to snatch your money, to snatch your dry or your food or all these things. We really come here with the hope of safety, with the hope of [00:58:00] being respect with all our children. We bring some mom come with two five Childrens, so act of kindness.

It's really humanity language. 

Florence: Yeah. I think that's the real take home message for me from what you've said is, is that kindness and caring, human connection and, and also that idea of five minutes homework research to just break the ice with that little human connection or curiosity about that person's home, country or food or whatever it is that gives you that in, that then helps the other person relax and, and feel, yes, this person is seeing me for who I am and, and a human being.

Wan: Yes. That's the point [00:59:00] actually, because we are scared. We ha we want to fill the safety, so show the safety. I mean, it doesn't, the world. Is a lack of people who, who, who care the world need more people like, like a kindhearted people and be the one don't have to wait for, for other people to do. You study first and you will see the difference.

Like I said, treat people like you be you be treated and you can have a lot of support, system, organization, and charity. It, it's a waste. If we did not utilize it to, to the organization or professional or or health team, to the migrant woman. All have to come together like a city or century logo. It's just like a two hand standing together.

See, it can represent a building, it can be represent a house, it can represent a two human being who giving the [01:00:00] roof, who giving a safety place. So this is who we are. We are together. 

Florence: Fantastic. Well, I said at the beginning, it is a privilege to have you and I, I certainly feel it has been an immense privilege.

So thank you very, very much for being willing to share things and speaking so eloquently with your superpower. Um, I'd like to thank, thank you very much, Wan, and also you, Katherine. It's been fantastic and I really hope that people have learned something and will take away something and enjoy it as well.