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The Obs Pod
The Obs Pod
Episode 67 Magic Mates
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Sometimes you meet someone who spurs you on and brings out the best in you, for me this is Gill Phillips aka WhoseShoes. Hear us chat about what makes us #MagicMates & how finding someone you click with can make magic happen!
More information about Gill & some of the topics we discuss:
https://padlet.com/WhoseShoes/overview
One blog Flo! https://whoseshoes.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/in-the-shoes-of-florence-wilcock-divisional-director-specialist-services-obstetrician-kingston-hospital-ft/
http://matexp.org.uk/
You can find out more about me on Twitter @FWmaternity & @TheObsPod as well as Instagram @TheObsPod please check out #MatExp matexp.org.uk for ideas about how to improve maternity experience.
My beautiful artwork is thank to Anna Geyer www.newpossibilities.co.uk
Thank you all for listening, My name is Florence Wilcock I am an NHS doctor working as an obstetrician, specialising in the care of both mother and baby during pregnancy and birth. If you have enjoyed my podcast please do continue to subscribe, rate, review and recommend my podcast on your podcast provider.
If you have found my ideas helpful whilst expecting your baby or working in maternity care please spread the word & help theobspod reach other parents or staff who may be interested in exploring all things pregnancy and birth.
Keeping my podcast running without ads or sponsorship is important to me. I want to keep it free and accessible to all but it costs me a small amount each month to maintain and keep the episodes live, if you wish to contribute anything to support theobspod please head over to my buy me a coffee page https://bmc.link/theobspodV any donation very gratefully received however small.
Its easy to explore my back catalogue of episodes, I have a wide range of topics that may help you make decisions for yourself and your baby during pregnancy as well as some more reflective episodes on life as a doctor.
If you want to get in touch to suggest topics, I love to hear your thoughts and ideas. You can find out more about me on Instagram @TheObsPod and email me on TheObsPod@gmail.com Please also check out #MatExp matexp.org.uk for ideas about how to improve maternity experience.
My bea...
Welcome to the Obspod. I'm an NHS obstetrician hoping to share some thoughts and experiences about my working life. Perhaps you enjoy Call the Midwife, maybe birth fascinates you, or you're simply curious about what exactly an obstetrician is. You might be pregnant and preparing for birth. Perhaps you work in maternity and want to know what makes your obstetric colleagues tick, or you want some fresh ideas and inspiration. Whichever of these is the case, and for that matter anyone else that's interested, the obspod is for you. Today I'm extremely excited because I have with me my great friend Jill, who's also known as Who Shoes. And if it wasn't for Jill, I wouldn't be here at all. I certainly wouldn't have a podcast and I wouldn't have done like a million other things. So welcome, Jill. Um perhaps I don't know if you want to say a bit about who you are or yeah, maybe we'll start with who you are.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so hi Flo. I'm obviously delighted to be part of this. It's such a such a well, honour is is not the word we use. It's just great, you know, it's just really good fun. And um, so I'm Jill Phillips, the creator of a tool called or approach called Who's Shoes, um, which is based on a board game, but it's a lot more than that in terms of connectivity and trying to bring people together who want to make positive change. And it was a conversation um when Flow phoned me up out of the blue, what would it be, seven years ago, I think? Something like that.
FlorenceI think it is now, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And you said, Oh, I've been I'm new to Twitter, which I thought was interesting, and I've been watching what you're doing around dementia care. Do you think whose shoes would work in maternity? And that's kind of like really where the story started.
FlorenceYeah, I'd seen your tweets. I think you might have been wandering around Paris at a conference, and I thought, this looks interesting, and then I saw the dementia workshops in Kent where there was lots of bunting and cake and people drawing, and I thought this looks really fun, and I really wanted to kind of start a conversation and get people thinking about maternity and most importantly, maternity experience, and uh yeah, you kind of drew me in, I think.
SPEAKER_00Well, that's really nice, and I've I've forgotten that actually, but I remember now that was the Quality and Safety Forum in Paris, which was an an enormous big deal for me, you know, to be invited to speak at something like that. I had quite a big slot at it, and I remember doing stories around I didn't want to be there on my own, I wanted to like bring all my network with me. So, in some ways, in terms of I'm gonna perhaps mention later on wildcard, um, you know, that was the same idea that I wanted to kind of like share the experience and and help other people to feel that they could be there too and contribute and get things going on Twitter. So, yeah, interesting to reflect on that.
FlorenceYeah. So you and I started working, I think you're right, I think it was 2014, and we were going to do I I seem to remember you taking a photo of my notes in my notebook, which was a very small pilot. That's right. Um starting doing some who shoes work in maternity. And we've kind of blossomed from there, I guess.
SPEAKER_00I think we have.
FlorenceSo I think that the project is kind of long, well not, I was gonna say long gone, but it's not long gone. It's just it's not a project, it's just a thing, it's a ever-evolving, ever-changing beast, I guess. Um, but I think one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you today is I feel you kind of unleashed in me this whole different aspect of being an obstetrician and being a doctor, and not just the day-to-day clinical stuff. I mean, I shouldn't say just because that's obviously very important, but uh you gave me a whole different aspect of life, which I'm now I kind of have run away with, I suppose. Um, so I wanted to talk a bit about meeting someone and working with someone who just gives you energy and takes you in a whole new direction you kind of never imagined.
SPEAKER_00And it's been I mean it's lovely to hear you say that, but it's been so fascinating watching that, perhaps egging you on a bit for certain things. I mean, I think the blog story is quite hilarious. Um, did we mention OneBlog Flow? OneBlog Flow was basically me asking you if you could please, please do a blog and oh, I don't know whether I've got time, and and and then now you're writing for the BMJ and doing stuff with the RCOG, and that's kind of like an extension of that original blog, I think.
FlorenceYeah, so when I wrote my blog, my husband was I I can't remember why he was a bit annoyed with me. Uh maybe it was just keeping me too busy, or I don't know, but I think that was it. I said, Yeah, don't worry, it's it's just I'm doing it for Jill. It's just it's only one blog. It's just gonna be the once. And yeah, then I discovered I liked writing. I mean, uh yeah, I don't know how many blogs I've written now. And uh I've written poems, which I didn't imagine writing either.
SPEAKER_00So the the funniest one for me was um when we were doing our Nobody's Patient project, which we might come on and talk a bit more about, because it's been so important and so um impactful really. But I remember we had to do a monthly report for NHS England, and it was you and not me who said let's do it as a stellar story. And we ended up doing our monthly reports. Basically, I I think people have got different understandings of what rules are, and a monthly report you would expect to be a written report that goes on a shelf, and if you're lucky, the person who commissioned it will read it, but probably not. And this way we were doing and we were enjoying doing our monthly stellar stories, and they really attracted a very wide readership, so it felt worthwhile and it was fun to do.
FlorenceYeah, and stellar stories, yeah, that was another thing you got me into because I think we were getting the train back from somewhere and it was November, and we started talking about doing a Matex advent calendar. So we'd done a Matex alphabet before, um, going through the letters of the alphabet, thinking about all the kind of words that would make a good maternity experience, and we were coming up to December, and we thought we could do an Advent calendar, and I was thinking about how we might open a door, and so you showed me Stella stories, and then rather than yeah, and then rather than opening a door, we ended up doing between us a story every day of December for Advent. I mean, there was a point in the middle of it when I thought what she got me into now. Like, I'm I'm spending ages doing these stories. But I think I think that's the main thing for me. Like you push me way beyond my comfort zone, and it's like having, I was thinking about this in the run-up to today. It's like slightly like having, well, partly, yeah, a friend that gets you up to no good, but also almost like having a big sister that dares you, right? I dare you to go and do this, and then you get into trouble, and then the person who dared you, they're they're nowhere. I mean, that's not to say you you leave me nowhere, but but I I feel like you dare me to do things. So you in the early days when we were doing the pilot workshops, which ended up being five maternity experience pilots in in London, you I think contacted the Royal College of Midwives and the uh president of the Royal College of Midwives, which was Leslie Page. And because you'd done that, it was kind of well, I'd better contact the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, hadn't I? So I emailed him about what we were doing. It was David Richmond. And he emailed back that he was really interested. And would I like to come and meet him? And it's the only time I've ever had a one-on-one meeting with the president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and gynecologists. And I remember arriving at the building, and they were, oh, would you like a tea or a coffee and come into the kind of presidential suite executive rooms? And because I'd brought the Who Shoes board game with me, which is it's not an easy thing to transport, I had it in a bin bag. Um, because when I was leaving home, it was raining, and that was the only thing it would kind of fit in to keep dry. So I turned up for this very important meeting. They showed me in to the president, and David Richmond was very gracious, and I pulled out a bin bag and laid out the board game on his table. And I never would have dared do anything like that in my life. Um, and and I suddenly thought, what what am I doing here? Like, not only have I got a one-on-one meeting with this very important person, and I'm telling him about the things I'm passionate about and women's experience of maternity care and what I'm trying to achieve. Uh, and he's giving me his time, but I'm I'm yeah, in his office laying out a board game. It it's just kind of nuts.
SPEAKER_00And I think you never look back from that because um I remember you now which event was it? Was it the launch of the National Maternity Review? And I got called out for an interview, and by the time I came back, you got the board game out and you were showing it to Baroness Cumblage?
FlorenceYes, so it was I think it was called Birth Tank. It was a kind of stake it was a stakeholder event. And yes, I think inspired by my sort of slightly rebellious bit um at the college, I brought the board game and I bought one of Anna's graphics. So Anna, the fantastic graphic um facilitator who did so many beautiful and still does so many beautiful um pictures for us. I pulled out her graphic and the game, and it was I think it was a coffee break. So I just there was a small shelf at the side of the big hall we were in, and I just put out the board game on that and stuck up the graphic with some blue tack and yeah, Baroness Cumberledge was kind of turned around and went, you know, what's that? Um, and was really fascinated and and really interested, and it really grabbed her attention. And yeah, I I never would have done anything like that. I probably wouldn't have dared speak to her. So I think yeah, there's there's so many things that I've done because of working with you, because you're you kind of energize me and provoke me and dare me, and and that's uh yeah, unleashed this really creative side of me, um, which I really enjoy. I think that's the main thing. It's it's hopefully doing good and changing things for women and families, but it's also just so much fun, really fun.
SPEAKER_00And I think you know it's it's interesting hearing you talk like that because you're obviously naturally very creative, and I mean I quote you as someone who's one of the most creative users of who shoes. So some people see it as a big workshop, and obviously that's the thing that people hear about most, and is on Twitter, but the way that you I mean the one that really cracked me up was you putting a copy of the board game on a was it a hospital trolley and taking it round the ward. Tell us about that.
FlorenceIt's a delivery trolley. So we have these metal trolleys, and they have a top and a bottom and four legs with wheels, so that you can push your delivery pack or um or your equipment around. And yeah, I just stuck the board game on that and I put some strawberries and biscuits and stuff on the the bottom shelf to, you know, give people a bit of an incentive to come and talk to me. Yeah, it was good.
SPEAKER_00And I think you know, incentives have been a big part of what we're doing. I can't believe how people go crazy for the little croc shoes. So you have one at the beginning on on your handbag, didn't you? The very first word.
FlorenceOh, I still have. I still have, absolutely. It's still attached. The little um chain that hangs off, that broke, so I just tied it on with a piece of string. So I've still got my little pink croc from when we first met, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we'll have to get you a new chain for that. So maybe I mean it's really nice what you say about creativity, and I say it's been really fun watching that um evolve. And I mean it it it works both ways, doesn't it? Because obviously you've sparked me on and it makes me a bit more daring, and you know, we properly play off each other. And I mean, I think some of the things like um the continuity of care ABC that we did with the Shrewsbury team, and it wasn't just um like an A to Z, you know, C is for continuity. It was when you came up with something like E is for elves, and you think, What? No, do you remember that the elves were to do with very neat stitching?
FlorenceAnd you know, it was Yeah, that was the elves and the shoemaker because we were trying to work. We're gonna do very neat stitching, and you're less likely to have perineal tearing with um continuative care. That's correct. And um, yeah, the elves and the shoemaker, they just seem to work. And then we were talking about the recent talk I'd given at the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. We were talking about the Labour Ward lead spinning plates and having all these priorities. And I think I can't remember if it was you or me, one of us suggested the modern major general from Gilbert and Sullivan. And then I was just that is absolutely it. It's like you have to be an expert in 3,000 different things up to an amazing level, and how can you possibly balance all those things?
SPEAKER_00And then we got Anna to um so Anna Gaia to make our lovely graphic of the spinning plates that we could use on our slides. Pretty special.
FlorenceI think the it's the the fact that I'll have an idea or you'll have an idea, and then we'll message each other and go, oh, got an idea, need to have a conversation, and then we'll have a conversation and we may start with one idea, like with the continuity of care ABC. I can't remember what we started with, but we started with something completely different, and then I was looking around my office, and I've got an ABC of birth on the wall, and it was just oh, we need to do an ABC. It it's when we get together, we then have a completely different idea because we spark things in one another.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's great, it's really great.
FlorenceAnd I definitely feel it's one of those two and two makes five. It's not just additive, it's it's more than that. It's something that we're better together. There's more than just yeah, just the individual ideas, it's that bounce back and forth that really makes it work and really makes it happen. And I think because we're coming at things from slightly different angles, yeah, which is where I mean uh that's totally who's shoes, isn't it? But that idea that you've got one perspective, I've got another perspective, that that's what really works.
SPEAKER_00And I I think for me, and we've talked a lot about creativity and how I've you know encouraged that in in you and in me, um, but I think that kind of that whole reciprocity, and I mean the thing that I wanted to talk about was who shoes is basically the same tool as it has been since I first created it back in 2008, but and it's always been intended to be action-focused. But you've taken that, run with it, developed it in spades, and all you're interested in really from a workshop is is as as absolutely should be the case, what's going to happen as a result of it, and to make the pledges you know very real, and I think it's all very well people coming up with pledges at a workshop, but to kind of support people and nurture them to follow them through. So, right back to that very first Kingston workshop where um the graffiti board came from. Now, to me, that was a tension that was going on at the time. It was obviously new to maternity, we were working with the London Clinical Network. There's a there's a pressure sometimes to have pledge made, date, date delivered tick. And this was the opposite of that because and I think obviously we were learning all the time, but some of the best things happen over a long period of time. Um, somebody's working on them, they can get dispirited. So tell us the story about the graffiti board because that came from that very first workshop.
FlorenceYeah, so that was Balvinder's pledge. Balvinder is one so she was one of our supervisors of midwife, she's now one of our matrons, and she pledged to put up a a board, it wasn't even called a graffiti board at that point, but a board at the entrance to our maternity unit on which people could write their feedback uh with a piece of chalk. So a blackboard. And the workshop was October, and then it was about June, July the following year that she finally got the go-ahead for the graffiti board, and it's we've got two, it's in the front of our entrance to our maternity building and also on one of our postnatal wards, and it's a blackboard, and people write in chalk. Um, sometimes they write feedback, but actually a lot of it is birth announcements when it's a bit sad at the moment because we don't have kids in the unit because of COVID, but um, little siblings used to draw stuff about coming to visit their new baby sister or brother, or waiting with their mum for a scan to see the baby, and it's there to this day. Every now and again, obviously, we have to wipe it off and start again. So uh at the moment, yeah, I was looking at it yesterday. I love it because I love to see the names of the babies, um, and sometimes people come and put um names of previous babies, um, and we do get we do get some feedback, but it's it's like a massive celebration of the birth of all these these babies and these families um at Kingston, and it's been copied by quite a number of different hospitals now actually, and has been written up as a case study. And Belle just she just persevered. She had some initial problems with estates, they didn't want to have it. Then there was question about whether it could be a blackboard, chalkboard, or whether it had to be a whiteboard. And yeah, she just plodded quietly away in the background and then it went up, and it's been uh a phenomenon, really. It's it's it's great. I really like it when I leave work and there's a little baby Florence announced on it. Okay. That's just my my bias, but um yeah, it's great.
SPEAKER_00And you mentioned in passing then, but it's so important case studies, and I think that's something that you've been very, very influential with to try and capture the best practice things that come along, the really kind of like easily transferable things that somebody else, you know, completely independently, regardless of whose shoes or maternity workshops or anything, can just pick up and think, well, would this work for us? Should we adapt it a little bit? And we've given people a lot of we've got three books of case studies now, haven't we, from the various maternity projects?
FlorenceYeah, and I think the the action and the case studies are they're they're really important. Um and they take work. You know, putting on a workshop is is quite a lot of work, but making sustained change um it does happen because people feel inspired and enthused, and also uh almost like they've got permission uh or that they don't need permission to take action. action and and do things and then kind of capturing that afterwards and making people realise that actually it does work and that if you have constantly kind of in a very bureaucratic way going up through a an NHS hierarchy and red tape and stuff, it's very difficult to get stuff done. Whereas if you actually have a bit of a groundswell of opinion and thought and people wanting to do stuff after a workshop, you know, it's that case of many hands make light work, don't isn't it? But um pulling together the case studies, it it is harder work than you think to get people to put down on paper, okay, what have you done? How have you done it? What are the challenges? What are the things that you'd suggest to someone else? But then it's so valuable because other hospitals can copy and it's back a bit to what I talked about in that merry-go-round episode of don't keep reinventing the wheel don't keep re-trying to do the same thing. Actually let's let's share those ideas. So I'm very proud of those case studies.
SPEAKER_00And I think for me they've given me a tremendous kind of bank of material when I'm running another workshop and someone comes up with an idea not reinvent the wheel you know we perhaps have a look at that case study or perhaps something else spins off from it. And I think the satisfaction it gives to people to kind of develop those ideas and I think that you know really important part of our conversation here how we've worked with women and families and people like Lee Kendall suggesting that she is as sadly a bereaved mum can um help write a more empathetic letter now that's something that I've been able to use that idea throughout my work so regardless of what topic it is you know these these letters I mean perhaps during COVID or whatever it is land on somebody's um you know mat at the door and they open them and I mean we've we've done some poems around this haven't we Flo in terms of admin and um Mr Blinkinsop's clinic and you know the the the appointment arrives that was um two days ago and it becomes your fault and you know all sorts of different things but I think the point I'm trying to make is to involve um the people in knowing how it feels to receive that letter and to make it more empathetic and to make it more informative as well. And and some of the things that have spun off from that you know from my point of view and in terms of who shoes during COVID have been very much around messaging. So people talk about communication but you know that answer phone message or whatever it is that might just seem fine to you to bang out a a a message but the the the kind of like receiving end of that um we've we've had a poem if your call is urgent well it's urgent to me um you know I don't call the doctor easily and that that kind of thing and just that you know if it promises that something will happen as a result of if you phone such and such a number and then it's completely different experience and it doesn't you know it doesn't help you it doesn't serve you. So I suppose a big part of who shoes is trying to join things up and um I mean I'm thinking about the opportunity we had incredibly fortunate I think with Kate Grimes when she was chief executive of Kingston and giving us the opportunity to do some work together in other areas of the hospital and and just I I mean I think that was a story that really stood out for me in that it was about trust and it was about um she was really valuing what we were doing and rather than as a chief executive saying you must do XYZ there was obviously leadership but I think she trusted us to see where the energy within the hospital would would go and how best to develop it and that felt pretty special.
FlorenceYeah I think so and I think you know we looked at some admin issues um as part of that and also operating theatres and I remember doing the operating theatre workshop and day surgery didn't really want to be part of it and then they got a bit jealous and wanted their own workshop afterwards it was quite interesting.
SPEAKER_00And you got me going round the hospital in scrubs with you so that I could properly understand and that was me well outside my well outside my comfort zone.
FlorenceSo just knocking my microphone over there obviously um yeah yeah that was really fun and also the little things that make a difference like whether you've got your glasses in recovery um if you're a glasses wearer um you know which for me would be a major thing because I can't can't see hardly anything without my glasses I feel lost without my glasses so it'd be really important.
SPEAKER_00And then for me how it linked in with some of my other kind of subject areas so in terms of again that kind of recovery room if someone's confused and perhaps it's someone with dementia it could be put down to well they've got you know that someone living with dementia but actually to separate out what's the norm for this person and to know enough about the real person to be you know making sure in terms of patient safety that not everything is just dismissed as a condition is fascinating.
FlorenceJust coming back to what you were saying about um involving people using services and that kind of co-production I think um for me the beginning I remember when we were doing the first workshop I actively went and got people who'd written complaints to come and attend and that was a really good way forward actually so I think all too often you can kind of get people that are happy with how things are and I think one of the kind of challenges were well using the service want to come in and involve themselves in a workshop oh my god they're falling over themselves they want to give feedback they want to get involved they want to um drive change and particularly if they haven't had a great experience because they don't want someone else to have that experience and also I I remember people saying to me after the first workshop well that they hadn't kind of realized how much the doctors and midwives did really care about what they were doing and how difficult it was to do some of the things um that that we wanted to do. And I think an appreciation from families using our services that actually people are genuinely trying to do the right thing and that actually it's not as easy as you think and we're human beings too and then us listening and understanding what effect you know inadvertently saying something negative or is even something you think isn't negative can have on that person you know whether you're chatting and the person is overhearing staff moaning or complaining about something that that how that makes them feel so I think there's always been a bit of a challenge with some of the work we've done about well will you get people to come and how will you get people to come and the answer is if you actually ask them and open your doors and invite them in people will come because they want to want to tell you what they think.
SPEAKER_00And I think it's all about and there's something I I very much see with our who she's workshops um we talk about creating the conditions because people say you know I I think I've as you know Flo I've got such an aversion to tick boxes like they kind of just you know I've got such a radar around tick boxes and you know people say oh we want feedback and you think well do you really or do you want to tick a box you know but if you create the conditions which is everything really in terms of how you invite people whether they feel that you want them to come whether you make them feel welcome cake obviously is a very you know um great thing for people but anything really that just makes people feel that their their opinion and their voice is valued and that feeds right through to following up afterwards rather than you know we've got the feedback thank you very much. So the whole genuine co-production I think not very many people really get and you know it's been fantastic working with you for that because you totally get it.
FlorenceI think people don't like it because it's messy and uncomfortable. And they don't sometimes sometimes when I'm talking to my husband and I'm saying oh you know why don't they understand why aren't they happy with this he's well you know it makes life more complicated for them Florence um it's much easier to just kind of gloss over the top and say you're listening but not really be um and yeah I think um it's messy, it's uncomfortable but it takes you to whole new places and I think that's something I've learned a bit from you is when people ask for things to come back and challenge them a little bit and go, okay, so you want me to do a workshop or you want me to do this, this and this do you really want me to? Are you really going to be interested in what people are saying and are you really going to take account of that because if so yes I'm I'm gonna get on and do that but actually if it's a bit of a tick box a bit half-hearted no it's not really going to happen then it's there's no point putting in the the effort in the first place.
SPEAKER_00Yeah and then that that sort of feeds into and if I get an inquiry and you know you might get somebody with if you like positional power and or you know I've heard about this who shoes thing I'd like to roll it out across my region that just so isn't how it works you know so we'll find one place that you know if you there's some ingredients aren't there you know a passionate person people who really want to make change someone who perhaps wants to be a bit of a um innovator and you know if if that starts within a say a region um then others will look on it's a bit like your day theatres and main theatres isn't it you want other people to look on and think what's happening over there we want to be part of it.
FlorenceYeah completely I was going to say well I was wondering if we should talk a bit about lemons. Do you think we should I well some people listening to this will know we have a bit of a thing about lemons. We do we did take lemons to NHS Expo We did uh and we even went to a lemon festival so I didn't know if we should elaborate and think why lemons?
SPEAKER_00Well I think we should definitely talk about lemon light bulbs and I think you've you've kind of touched upon lemon light bulbs and I think the thing that kind of gives me goosebumps really and you think that all of this difficulty and all of this angst is actually worth it is when you see people at workshops getting lemon light bulb moments. Now I mean I would define those as possibly the sort of people you were talking about a clinician who hasn't realized they're good people they just haven't realised the impact of those particular words or perhaps looking at a screen rather than looking at the woman or whatever it happens to be that they kind of almost go into themselves and reflect and you can almost see it in their eyes and then they may or may not choose to share that and then when they do and sometimes I mean there have been some extraordinary moments I remember one event in particular where one quite senior person I mean who shoes is very no hierarchy just people um so I shouldn't necessarily know who the senior people are because we're sitting round with a name badge that says Jill and Flo and we're not wearing NHS uniforms and um this person had been quite annoying and quite dominant on her table and when we got to the pledges part like you know who'd like to make the first pledge and sure enough she grabbed a microphone and I thought here we go because it's like the opposite of what I want I want someone who perhaps has never dreamt of grabbing a microphone in in their whole life but they're so fired up with what they want to do. But this person basically said that she wanted to say how much she'd learnt from sitting around talking to women and families and junior staff and how she needed to listen more and she was pretty much in tears and I thought to say that so openly in front of her own team was incredibly brave and that was like you know a mega light lemon light bulb moment. But in terms of so why lemons flow?
FlorenceWell a bit of fun it it kind of started because we were videoing something for NHS Change Day and you were wearing a big yellow jacket. It was I haven't worn it much since and the video got as I remember it the video got edited so that you were literally just standing next to me all yellow not really saying anything. Just like a nutty dog so it sort of started from there but I mean like we were discussing before we started recording it's almost like that's irrelevant now. Anytime I go anywhere in fact I took a photo for you yesterday um of um some papier mache lemons I'll have to send it to you anytime I go anywhere and see anything to do with lemons the children know I'm gonna whip my phone out and take a photo and send it to you.
SPEAKER_00Or buy me some dove present.
FlorenceAnd and when I started my podcast and I I I kind of was researching a bit how to do a podcast and thinking about you need to have a bit of a structure and like you say I'm very action focused. I wanted to have a kind of message at the end of each podcast and so I just thought well obviously it has to be the zesty bit because it has to be the zest, the essence you know from the lemon so the whole lemon thing is just a bit of a joke really isn't it um and that kind of brings us back to the thing of you can be doing really good stuff in terms of quality improvement and um making a difference but it needs to be fun and the lemons are a bit of fun and now we've got lemon light bulbs and then we actually found some lemon kind of Christmas lights which and they're actually draped over my pinup board in my office next to me. So it's just kind of random thing that's just become a bit of a joke. And then we even went to the lemon festival we discovered there was a whole lemon festival I think actually maybe maybe Zoe Adam Bajilan's mum messaged us about the lemon festival we go there and we looked at it and we were kind of like oh my god it's a whole festival of lemons in the south of France. And it was in its 86th year can you imagine what it was like when it started and I think even though it's just totally random that is one of the funniest just best chirips I've ever had it was just totally insane all these amazing figures fairy tale figures built out of lemons and a lemon procession and the whole town just covered in lemons it was it was just bonkers lemon people like us.
SPEAKER_00And it kind of spoiled a doula we met a doula in the queue didn't we oh we did we did Israeli wasn't she I think and we were just chatting in the queue that's right but it kind of spoiled our festival it it kind of spoilt our um gifts for each other because suddenly every shop was full of lemony gifts wasn't it whereas before it had been something like you know quite niche that we could find each other.
FlorenceYeah but it no that was that was epic. So but I think it the the thing from that is is fun.
SPEAKER_00And drawing people in I think I think to find something that draws people in begin and I think that goes and it it's interesting how how similar the themes are across kind of all my work regardless of the subject matter and we're all people you know we're all vulnerable sometimes we all want to have a bit of fun and I think if you can tap into those elements then the rest just follows but if you don't then it becomes an official kind of feedback um tick boxy or whatever it is.
FlorenceYeah because we get people messaging us all the time don't they or they've seen a random lemon dress or a a lemon thing and and they're a lemon gif and and they'll send it to us. So it kind of it it's also that kind of community energy because I remember when we started you saying oh I've did you register the hashtag Matt X? I did. You put it on something so it would be measured. Simply it was yeah and I thought I don't I don't really understand what she's doing but I I don't know and you were yeah yeah we need a hashtag and this is what it will be and I thought okay well I trust you because I've got no idea what I'm doing and it just took off incredibly in terms of just building a fantastic conversation about maternity not only within this country but people in Australia we've got people um in India sometimes we've got people in Ireland we've got people all over the place just send us stuff using that hashtag and it's really built a community of of people who are interested in improving maternity services whether that is people working in the service or people using the service it's it just really took off and that sort of brings me to the MatX Challenge Fund in that it got so successful that NHS England and the Department of Health when they put out some money for improving maternity experience called it the MatX Challenge Fund and I must admit yeah this is another kind of key point we were a bit annoyed because it was kind of our thing and it was a bit you've hijacked our thing and you've kind of taken it away from us and I remember feeling a bit like I'm not going to apply for that and then feeling like I don't have any ideas and it was a really short timeframe to apply and yes just feeling a bit hacked off really and and we hadn't been mentioned in the maternity review I think that was the key thing. Oh yes that was what really hacked us off yeah there should be a grassroots movement of people working in maternity and service users and we were uh sorry what do you mean there should be there is we are yeah yeah it was quite a mealy mouth paragraph that was I think that was the thing that really hacked us off but then acknowledging it not officially like that as a best practice thing or anything like that but then taking the name and putting out a challenge for something very similar to what we were already doing. Yeah in fact the same I was really annoyed I was really annoyed and I think you said sleep on it.
SPEAKER_00And you didn't sleep very much because you were trying to phone me at four in the morning.
FlorenceYeah I didn't sleep at all so this is the other thing that's great about our friendship is that I'm up early and Jill goes to bed late so I was up my brain was absolutely buzzing I had this idea of what we could do which became nobody's patient but it wasn't called nobody's patient then and it was inspired by Lee Lee Kendall who you've already mentioned and her son Hugo and the experience she'd had being in intensive care and Hugo being in neonatal care and the kind of lack of joined up thinking so falling through gaps between the maternity service the near natal service intensive care and the maternity service and I just suddenly thought oh my god that's it we could do something with that and I remember I was actually sitting on a bench in a park ringing Lee at a point at which I felt vaguely she might be up and talking her through the idea and then you had met Catherine on a train. That's right I don't know if you want to say a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_00So I'd met Catherine McClellan coming back from a a conference I think up north somewhere and we'd just chatted and this had been like just two weeks before that and she told me about sadly she'd have multiple Losses in pregnancy, um, including several babies in the middle of pregnancy, and how that um was in danger of falling between support for what people would traditionally see as miscarriage or obviously stillbirth. And the more she spoke to me, I was just so moved by by her and by her story. And I'd said to her, Catherine, if I ever get a chance to do something about this through whose shoes, it would work because the whole idea of different perspectives and people not realizing, you know, that something like 24 weeks as an administrative date within pregnancy um doesn't make mean anything at all in terms of a woman and what's happening in her body and in you know at what date she she might sadly lose her baby. Um, you know, I'll I'll try and do something about that. So then when you came back, Flo and suggested the idea that led to nobody's patient, we were looking at two two different themes originally, weren't we? And we kind of added on the third one about this mid-trimester loss. Yeah, and it's I mean, working with Catherine to develop those um scenarios and a very small group of um couples mainly, women, some of them just women on their own and um some couples, and with Anna as a graphic artist, just sitting in a small room in in Birmingham with Catherine bringing more food than you can imagine. It was one of the most moving experiences I think I've ever had, just to be part of that intimate conversation. There was only one conversation happening, so no post-it notes or anything, with Anna very sensitively recording the key issues that came up, and that's how we sourced the um the material for that part of the project. It was an incredible project.
FlorenceThe thing I loved about the project was it was co-produced from the very start. So the bid was co-produced with Lee and Catherine, and then just went from there.
SPEAKER_00And I think I think it's important to say that that the bib was co-produced. I think it was such a collaborative bib because as I saw it, the London Clinical Network, um, was it Donna Rockenden and Donald Peebles more or less gave us a blank sheet. It was like a bit like I was saying earlier with Kate Grimes, we believe in you. We've seen what you've done with the original project, we're part of this, and then to get the various other parties, um Kingston Hospital, St George's Hospital, it was a mega collaborative bid.
FlorenceIt completely was. Um, I'm feeling like so. We've said we might have to do more than one chat together. We could talk all day. We could talk all day. Um, so I'm kind of feeling like we should probably come to the end of today to be continued. Yes, boss. Um, but before before we do that, uh well, yeah, no, you're you're the one that's always egging me on, boss. Um before, there's there's one thing that I've done before you, and we're gonna end on that, which is I started a podcast.
SPEAKER_01You did.
FlorenceHere we are on the Obspod, the podcast. And it's one of the few things that I've jumped in head first, not knowing what I'm doing, with you behind me. And now you're gonna start a podcast. So I don't know, perhaps to end, we should talk a little bit about what is up and coming wildcard.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thanks, Flo. It's been such a a crazy idea, really, and I mean definitely one that I'm following you a hundred percent on. But I've so enjoyed, I've listened to all of your podcasts. I really enjoy the OBS pod and I've seen the the difference it makes, so now it's my kind of mission to get it into all medical education and you know everywhere. So you've definitely inspired me with the idea of a podcast, and there's some really good podcasts around, aren't there? So I I had never planned to do a podcast, but then out of the blue, and it really was out of the blue, I got named as an HSJ100 wildcard. Um I didn't know what one of those was, um, and I genuinely I mean i i we've got a pretty ambivalent attitude, you and I, to awards and um yeah, but this to me seemed like um it was it it's in keeping with who's shoes, you know, the wild card idea. Um I looked down at the list and I was wondering who might be in this 20 HSJ wildcards, and it's crazy. I I was thinking perhaps it's my Twitter gang or you know, I didn't know who it would be. Most of them I must put some time in to actually look them up and see who they are. I don't know. There's a lovely guy called Clinton, who's a friend of mine um in Birmingham, so I'll link up with Clinton, and then other people were like Marcus Rashford and um Gareth Southgate. And I I was kind of trying to work out what was going on. It seemed to me that the perhaps whoever the the panel are had had this kind of like fun idea, and it was to do with the change over to the new chief executive NHS. Who is it that this new at the time, not yet appointed person, should be listening to? And as if they'd had a load of fun thinking, well, we need one of those, and we need one of those, you know, so famous people and random people and so on. And they've got me down as a campaigner and specifically as someone who's good at bringing in the voices of people who wouldn't normally be heard, and so I am flattered by that, I'm happy about that, but I'm thinking, well, really, if I met the chief executive NHS, I could have a conversation with them, but look at all the conversations they could have with all my wild network of lots and lots of wildcards from across society, really. So, my idea now is to set up a podcast, a wildcard podcast, and just chat to people and probably say not very much myself and listen to what they've got to say, and that will build into a kind of resource, really. Uh um lovely um Sam Majumda, my friend in Scotland, called it like pulling together a resource around the ph philosophy of life almost, but centred on the NHS, but the NHS as an opportunity to focus on wellness and well-being rather than just illness, and to recognise the role of social care and the community and and so on. So I'm just gonna talk to lots of random people. Now, the thing I'm not short of is people to talk to. I've had like amazing people I can talk to. And and uh this is a um an exclusive if you like. I'm gonna kick off tomorrow. I don't know when it will go live, but I'm gonna kick off tomorrow by um recording a session with my lovely friend Dr. Fazana Hussein, who is encouraging me and kind of like egging me on. She said, Jill, let's have an adventure. So yeah, that's what we're doing.
FlorenceWell, I think it's gonna be awesome. You have such an incredible network of so many interesting, enthusiastic, and very diverse people. So I think it will be incredible. I look forward to listening.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you. And I'm hoping it will be fun, you know, fun for everyone. Yeah.
FlorencePerfect. So I think we should leave it there. Um, we talked a bit at the beginning about what would the zesty bit be from today, and I was thinking the zesty bit is finding someone that gives you energy and encourages you, pulls you slightly outside your comfort zone and kind of running with that. So taking the plunge and and going with that because it will take you to a much kind of richer, more interesting life, I guess. I don't know, Jill, what what are your thoughts about Zesty Bit?
SPEAKER_00I think that's perfect. I think, you know, hopefully we could I don't know, the relationship that we've got, I mean I think people can can see that we have fun together. Um, you know, we we've presented some workshops together and we bounce off each other. And I think it's always more fun to hear two voices or to, you know, to be collaborative, to bring in other people. It just makes it interesting, and um, you know, that we shouldn't be afraid to to call someone my friend, you know, in terms of like being professional, we're all people, and you find the people that you you know, your soulmates really that you can properly kind of bounce off, and that fun I think energizes other people and and just you know it creates the outcome, the quality improvement. I mean people you know ask me in terms of um what model you use. Well, I don't know. You tell me, you know, because you don't necessarily need a formal model, you need people and humanity, and then the rest can kind of grow from there.
FlorenceFantastic. Thank you very much. I think this is a wrap. Thank you very much, Jill. And as the title of the episode is My Magic Mate. Um, you're very, very much my magic mate. So thank you not only for today, but for being my magic mate.
SPEAKER_00And likewise, Flo, thank you so much.
FlorenceI do hope you've enjoyed listening to this episode of the Obspod. Feel free to contact me on Twitter at FW Maternity or at the Obspod to ask me questions, give me topics for future episodes or let me know what you think. It's absolutely fantastic when you get in touch and I really enjoy reading your comments. As usual, I've tried to include in the programme notes some extra reading about this particular topic both for professionals working in maternity care and for pregnant women using services. I'd like to reassure you that although I'm talking about my experiences working in maternity care, I take confidentiality very seriously and do not give any personal information about any of my patients. If you've enjoyed listening, I'd love you to recommend the Obspod to friends or colleagues. And please do leave me a review on whichever podcast directory you find my episodes.
SPEAKER_02Many thanks for listening.