Joining forces with Sergeant Michael Wilmore-Crumrine, we venture into the complex terrain of gender-based violence and the unique struggles within the LGBTQI+ community. With Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine's background in law enforcement and his drive for advocacy, our conversation peels back layers on the societal factors that fuel such violence, and how those most vulnerable are often unfairly blamed. His own path to policing, marked by a dedication to standing up to bullies and seeking justice, sets the stage as we explore the inception of the Lesbian and Gay Peace Officers Association in Austin, Texas, and its vital role in creating a more inclusive and secure environment for everyone.
The heartbeat of this episode thrums with the theme of inclusivity, particularly within the echelons of law enforcement. We confront the reality of biases—be it homophobia or transphobia—that can erode the very foundation of trust communities have in their police force. Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine illuminates the intersectional challenges that compound the experiences of LGBTQI+ individuals, especially when they intersect with other marginalized identities. He advocates for rigorous training and the establishment of national standards that promise equal protection and respect for each citizen, no matter their background.
Capping off our enlightening discussion, we tackle the pivotal role of expert witnesses in LGBTQI+ cases, and how their expertise on trauma and victim behavior is indispensable in the courtroom. Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine shares a compelling narrative of a case involving a male serial rapist, highlighting the systemic obstacles faced by victims from marginalized groups.
Joining forces with Sergeant Michael Wilmore-Crumrine, we venture into the complex terrain of gender-based violence and the unique struggles within the LGBTQI+ community. With Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine's background in law enforcement and his drive for advocacy, our conversation peels back layers on the societal factors that fuel such violence, and how those most vulnerable are often unfairly blamed. His own path to policing, marked by a dedication to standing up to bullies and seeking justice, sets the stage as we explore the inception of the Lesbian and Gay Peace Officers Association in Austin, Texas, and its vital role in creating a more inclusive and secure environment for everyone.
The heartbeat of this episode thrums with the theme of inclusivity, particularly within the echelons of law enforcement. We confront the reality of biases—be it homophobia or transphobia—that can erode the very foundation of trust communities have in their police force. Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine illuminates the intersectional challenges that compound the experiences of LGBTQI+ individuals, especially when they intersect with other marginalized identities. He advocates for rigorous training and the establishment of national standards that promise equal protection and respect for each citizen, no matter their background.
Capping off our enlightening discussion, we tackle the pivotal role of expert witnesses in LGBTQI+ cases, and how their expertise on trauma and victim behavior is indispensable in the courtroom. Sgt. Wilmore-Crumrine shares a compelling narrative of a case involving a male serial rapist, highlighting the systemic obstacles faced by victims from marginalized groups.
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics multiple forms of violence, and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
Speaker 2:In this country, 31 million crimes 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes there is a murder. Every five minutes there is a rape. Every two to five minutes there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business and I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast on Crimes Against Women. I'm Maria McMullen. Michael Wilmore- Crumrine is a subject matter expert for the Office on Violence Against Women, supported national violence, women law enforcement, training and technical assistance consortium the single connection point for law enforcement and partners to access tailored support to strengthen responses to gender-based violence. He is a sergeant with the Austin Texas police department with over 36 years of law enforcement experience. He is a founding member and current president of the Lesbian and Gay Peace Officers Association, Austin Texas's first and only LGBTQI plus peace officers association. He's written and trained nationally and internationally on the subject of intimate partner and sexual violence in the LGBTQI plus community, as well as how to improve the relationship between the community and the criminal justice system. Michael, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1:You are a law enforcement officer in Austin, texas, is that correct?
Speaker 3:That is.
Speaker 1:What made you join the police force so?
Speaker 3:I was brought up in a large family and my parents had always instilled with us the drive or the sense that if you could do more and give back and be there to take care of others, that you should. That it's kind of an obligation if you have more to do so. Several of my family members my brother-in-law and my brother had careers in the military, and law enforcement opened up for me. The other kind of drive to that more than anything else, is I really can't stand bullies, so it just kind of seemed like a good fit to go into a profession where I could give back and hopefully try to make a difference in people's lives.
Speaker 1:So I suppose you see a number of bullies in your work right Of all different varieties.
Speaker 2:That I do.
Speaker 1:Why do you believe that is, and perhaps why do you believe that our society is so rife with intimate partner and sexual violence?
Speaker 3:Now great question. I'm here speaking as a subject matter expert. I'm not speaking on behalf of the Austin Police Department. I'm representing interim chief Robin Henderson in my responses here. You know, both of those crime categories hugely disproportionately affect women and I think as a society we still treat women differently. We still don't look in many ways as women is equal and we find ways to discount and mitigate bad behavior. Either we don't want to think of somebody as that bad or we always try to find an excuse. It was the alcohol.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because he's really a great guy. Right, he's really a great guy. He was just drinking.
Speaker 3:Correct and drunk sex, or it's just boys will be boys, or it's really not rape, rape, or well you know. We throw responsibility back on the survivor right, Like if they would have dressed a certain way, acted a different way, would have been more respectful. Whatever the case may be and a lot of that is just when it comes to these two crime types we really go out of our way to minimize that bad behavior and not actually hold people accountable and start at an early age of saying that's just not right, that negative sexual behavior, that negative violence is just not right and not appropriate. And so I think that's kind of some of the reasons why we see the levels of intimate partner and sexual violence that we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I appreciate that kind of context and clarification. You've done some other things to give back in addition to being part of law enforcement. You founded an organization such which is the Lesbian and Gay Peace Officers Association. Tell us about that.
Speaker 3:So, first off, it was not just me that formed it. It was several of us. I was one of the individuals that was part of it. The actual idea behind it belongs to a Lieutenant in our department, eric Cleveland, and a good friend who's retired, mary Hessell Road. I just happened to have been one of the individuals that they consulted when we were putting it together. I've had the privilege of being in that position of the president of that organization since 2014.
Speaker 3:But the Lesbian and Gay Peace Officers Association we started because Austin had always been a city that many of us had flocked to in law enforcement and in other areas, as being a place that was accepting and understanding and supportive of people who were queer identified. We had an incident involving Sergeant Hessell Road at the time and another sergeant where they were denied a transfer to the training academy, where they were hugely qualified, by a commander who made the comment if we have any more of quote them here, what would people think of the Austin Police Department? And denied their transfer even though they were highly qualified to go to that position. So we realized that, as accepting as we thought APD was, there was work to be done, and so we were formed in 2009. And we wanted to be different, so we formed the association on three tenants of service education and protection service.
Speaker 3:Back to the member service, to our community. Education on both fronts Because, as we've been in this position, right like people have a lot of questions about LGBTQI cops and not really understanding that, and then not understanding police in general. Right Like the queer community not fully understanding the criminal justice system as well, and back and forth, and so we've had that ability to work on educating that and then, of course, protection for our members and for the community. There's some pretty cool stuff we've done over the years.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about some of the questions that people have about LGBTQI plus cops. What?
Speaker 3:are the questions people ask about that.
Speaker 3:You know, probably one of the best stories I can tell is something that happened to me not that long ago, so a couple of years ago. I'm working a part-time job and for people can't see me on the podcast, but I'm six foot one and you know, I fluctuate usually between about 230 and 245 in weight. I'm not a small guy. I you know the way I present and how I talk and everything else. Right, it's who I am. But people have this idea or stereotype in their head of, I guess, what somebody who's queer identified looks, acts, sounds like. And so I'm working this part-time job and we're wearing I'm wearing our ball cap. Our department was the first department in Texas to do a pride ball cap, where we put the progress pride flag on our patch and we had a ball cap. And so I'm working and I'm working with these guys on a construction site and all day long we're talking back and forth and we're chit chatting, things are great, and at the end of the day they had to shut everything down and one of the workers came up to me, gave me the fist bump and did that man, y'all guys have roughest cops. I know life is rough right now for y'all. And so this was in. This was in 2022. So not not too far away from you know the riots and everything that happened with the murder of George Floyd.
Speaker 3:And so we're having this conversation and he's, he's, he's giving me all these accolades and he, he stops and he turns around and says I just want to thank you. And I said, yes, sir, thank you very much, that's very nice. And he turned around and he walked like three steps and then he pivot on a dime and he come back. He goes man, I just got one question for you. And I go what's that? And he goes why are you wearing that quote gay shit on your hat? And it really set me back because I was thinking okay, how do I respond to this? Is my body camera on? What am I going to say? And and I don't know what he expected me to say, but it was an opportunity to be at educational moment for him, seeing somebody like me, the way I look, the way I present, the way I act, the way I speak. I was not a gay guy, right? And it was an opportunity for me to tell him, because he, when he asked me, that my only response, I could come back, as I could say, because I'm a gay male and you, the guy you know, was literally like doing verbal gymnastics in his head and and stumbling all over himself and trying to. I'm really sorry and I shouldn't, you know, and I didn't mean to offend and I'm like it's a little late for that now and we're going through all that and what I ended up going ahead and and being able to educate him about.
Speaker 3:As I said, I hope you take this as a as a learning moment to understand that every one of us, meaning people who are queer identified, are in every profession and you cannot tell one of us by just looking at us. So you know. The thing is you ask about people understanding queer cops, right, or understanding how does that work? A lot of the time that I've spent over the past couple of decades is just talking to people and explaining to them our humanity. People want to wrap themselves into these weird knots and don't just want to be able to look at people and go. They're just a person, right?
Speaker 3:Right, I just happen to do this job and you ask me why I got into this business. I got into this business because I felt there was a need and I found out. I was really pretty good at doing what I do, but I'm no different than anybody else and people are afraid of the unknown. But the thing about somebody who's queer identified is you know, we're the invisible. Visible. You can't tell one of us just by looking at us. We're everywhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess the you know the chenesis. For my question about like what kind of questions could they have for queer cops is like to your point, you're a human being and you're in law enforcement and that's who you are. And like, I'm a human being and I'm a podcast host and that's who I am. The rest of it is nothing. Yeah, it's not you know, but clearly you were able to extract the bias from this person just by having a hat on and you know I got to give him some credit. I mean he lasted all day and say one word about that hat all day long.
Speaker 3:He didn't. And kind of the funny thing was, while he was doing these mental gymnastics, trying to back peddle it, back pedal crawdad, whatever term you want to use, being from the South he turns to one of his work, his coworkers, and he's like, well, you know what I mean. Like I've never seen he actually said this when we're talking to this, I've never seen a gay officer before and I'm like, yes, you have. And then he's. So he turns to his friend, says you know what I mean, you know what I mean. And his coworker turns around, says bro, you're on your own. My daughter's a lesbian. You dug this grave by yourself and you know that. It just kind of solidified this with this guy that you know we are who we are. I'm just a cop. I just I'm just a cop. I'm no different than anything. Wow, anybody else that?
Speaker 1:to me. That's really eye-opening and it's so telling and it's really sad that all of this exists, because homophobia and transphobia often thrive in these male dominated environments, and this was a construction site.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, we were. They were closing the road down. They were replacing one of our antennas for our police radio system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and so other places where that might thrive is like the military, where aggression, battle and dominance are elevated and encouraged. Let's talk about this. How did these themes just listed negatively impact law enforcement's ability to protect and serve the LGBTQI plus demographic?
Speaker 3:Well, I think that's an excellent question, right, and I go back to you know, kind of what I said a little bit earlier is is when that fear is there, then you're reluctant to actually either allow yourself to understand that this part of the community, that this segment of society that you swore no to protect, gets victimized. Right, you either minimize their experience as not something that rises to the same level as somebody else, right, and people don't have the same equal protections or access or respect right that we have for other community members. And, at the end of the day, if that's truly how you feel, right, you're relegating a partner society to being second class. The one thing in my three and a half plus decades of being a cop has taught me in working in the field that I've taught worked in right intimate partner sexual violence. What I could tell you is predators prey on everybody and prey on the most vulnerable, no matter whom they are. And if we as a profession are unable to understand that, we miss such an opportunity because somebody who is committing acts in the LGBTQ plus community are also going to be somebody who's going to be committing the same bad acts or, you know, in the heterosexual community with children, with others? It doesn't matter. Predators don't sit and pick that. They prey on who? On vulnerability. That's what my experience has taught me, all over a period of time.
Speaker 3:But I think at the end of the day, right when you're asking how it negatively impacts things is, you know, it starts to affect the way community looks at us in our legitimacy and being able to police right If a portion of our society feels you don't treat us the same as you treat somebody else, A good, good friend of mine, Andrea Munford. She's a deputy chief of Michigan State University. I was doing some speaking with her and we were talking on this subject and we were talking about inclusion and inclusivity and being able to be an officer for everybody. And she goes. You know, Mike, at the end of the day, inclusion is not an ala cart menu, and that has stuck with me for a long time.
Speaker 1:That is an excellent point.
Speaker 3:You know I don't get to pick and choose when I decide to be a public servant, as to who I can and who I can't serve.
Speaker 1:Well, when you show up on a call, you know whether it's a domestic violence call or otherwise. As a professional and a member of the police force, you're not going to base how you respond or whether you respond on someone's sexuality. You are there to protect and serve correct Sure.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. You're there to protect and serve. You're there to protect and serve everybody.
Speaker 1:Everybody, but not to interrupt. But when I call the police, you know if my life's in danger or I need help and I call the police, or any one of us calls the police, we're not going to care so much. Who shows up what their sexual orientation is, when they show up in any situation and possibly save your life. So what's the problem then?
Speaker 3:Well, I think the problem is that some people try to make something there that's not there, right. They try to make something discriminatory or exclusionary when it's not there, right. And so the other thing to realize is, when you're talking about the LGBTQI community, right, like especially every single generation that comes out more and more identifying as part of the queer spectrum, the Zennial population right now, 20 to 25% of the Zennial population, almost anywhere from one fifth to one in four, are identifying somewhere on the queer spectrum. And, like I said earlier, we're the invisible visible, right. You can't tell us from just looking at it. So if we don't spend the time and effort to educate our department about how to access and how to engage and how to work with this community, you're literally damning as large part of an upcoming generation not to be able to have the same services. And we can unpack that a lot more and understand how that negatively impacts our ability to police and get full information and have trust with the people in our society that we want to trust us, right.
Speaker 3:So homophobia and transphobia you talked about that, right? Like any sort of that bias, if you start to allow that to seep in, that's when you have issues. I don't want to end it on there, because what I know from the many of the cops that I've worked with if they don't do something the vast majority is if they don't handle something right is not out of malice, it's not out of amatuerk, it's. I don't know any better, I've not been taught any better, and so you know we can get into intimate partner violence and sexual violence and how it affects the community and at what percentage is. But how often are we teaching that to our officers? How often are we giving them that information? Because the dynamics are different right.
Speaker 1:So that's a great question. How often are we teaching our officers about that?
Speaker 3:You know, not often I've had the ability, that I've had the privilege to go and teach at the National Academy here in Austin, texas, shortly after the Oberfield decision in 2017. We started teaching every cadet class. I've had the privilege of teaching virtually every cadet class myself, and there's another detective that I teach with about intimate partner violence and sexual violence and the unique conditions and the unique circumstances that surround that within the LGBTQ plus community to educate officers, because there are some studies out there that show that we're just missing the mark. I know that most of the major departments in Texas I believe Houston, I believe Dallas and San Antonio are bringing these blocks of instructions in their academy. How much is?
Speaker 3:You know it's not a requirement underneath TECOL or Texas Commission on Law Enforcement Education, say it's not a requirement that everybody has to have, that they talk about engaging mark-wise communities, but that's not a requirement for everybody to know that yet. So it's here in our midst. I mean, there's over 18,000 or nearly 18,000 different law enforcement agencies in the US, so, and we don't have national standards. But I know that what we're doing here in Austin and I know, when I have the ability to go and speak at Crimes Against Women's Conference in Dallas, phenomenal conference that very much understands the needs behind this and puts on that training that's available to people, but it's certainly not something that we mandate.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about intersectionality for a minute, because it really does play into this topic. People who identify as LGBTQI plus and then perhaps have, are also people of color. People with other vulnerabilities or lack of access are often victimized more More often victimized by offenders and then revictimized by societal institutions such as law enforcement and the criminal justice system. Let's dive into that.
Speaker 3:Sure, the truth of the matter is, when you have somebody who is at those intersections of race, identity, orientation, even career right, it becomes challenging. We have several Queer officers of color in Austin and one of the conversations I've had with them is they ask where do I, where do I fit it Right, meaning I want to serve. Several of them have come from the military and and had a career in the military and then came into law enforcement and they're like you know, there's certain people within you know, certain communities that don't, communities of color, that don't accept me for my sexuality or my identity. Then there's people in law enforcement that may be leery of me, because I can fully understand the race issues in policing and what happened with with the George Floyd murderer and afterwards, and and Understand some of the issues that have been brought up, or the issues that have been brought up by Black Lives Matter, and so that's like, well, where some cops are leery of that, right, and then you know you throw on into that, you know being queer identified and those are some other issues, right, like when exactly do I fit in society?
Speaker 3:So that's a challenge. But but what we're also seeing is is when, especially, you're talking about, like trans people of color and People of color who are immigrants that are also trans right, are hugely preyed upon In society at Phenomenal rates much higher than anything else you know. When it comes to trans identified individuals, some of the studies that are out now are saying that 50 to 60 percent of trans identified individuals, at some point in their life, will be a survivor of intimate partner violence or sexual violence. Wow, that's a staggering, staggering rate.
Speaker 3:It is and what we haven't done really good at training our officers how to respond to those. There was a study that was published in 2021 by Herschel and McCormack and they looked at just like intimate partner violence. They they looked at a group of numbers it was well over two million reports nationwide of understanding our response as police to to those communities. And there's the thing that we that sometimes occurs in intimate partner violence, called dual arrest, where we're basically the police officers get on scene and they're unable to determine who the predominant aggressor is. They arrest both parties. It's called dual arrest. Yeah, and what we saw in this report was staggering opposite sex, cisgender individuals. Rate of dual arrest 2.9%. You know what the rate of dual arrest was with? It was female couple. No, you want to take a guess?
Speaker 1:double 54.8%.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's a lot more. Same-sex couples male almost 62%, 61.9% of the time dual arrest. Well, we couldn't figure it out. Yeah, we couldn't figure out the predominant aggressor, and we ended up arresting both.
Speaker 1:So Let me ask you a question about about that Is it, is it a training issue that doesn't didn't allow law enforcement to identify the predominant aggressor?
Speaker 3:It is, and and I want to hit on that because I keep going back to this this is not because officers are bad. We're just not training them Right. The vast majority of intimate partner violence cases that you're going to run into in your career is going to be involved a male perpetrator, any female victim.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Study after study, you know percentage after percentage. And so sometimes when you come into a situation where it is two females or two males, it's hard for you to fully understand everything. Right, maybe you just chalk it up to oh, it's just roommates, or maybe it's just, you know, a Cat fight. And then the other situation is does that couple feel comfortable enough to fully identify, identify the nature of that relationship with an officer? Because of the history?
Speaker 1:right, that we've had right and the history has been bad. I mean really, really bad.
Speaker 3:Yes, 100%, and so if we don't give officers the tools to to understand those unique dynamics that are present there, we're setting them up for failure and and I train on this and I've talked about this it's. It's not it's because we're not teaching officers that this is a possibility, and let me give you the tools so you can ask the appropriate question, so you can delve into this and get more the information that, hopefully, will help you determine that predominant aggressor and not have a situation like this.
Speaker 1:That would be awesome. I hope you're going to share that with us at the conference on crimes against women this year.
Speaker 3:It'll probably show up.
Speaker 2:It'll pop up somewhere.
Speaker 3:It'll show, it'll show up somewhere and you know you're back to your point about all this. You talked about the hate and stuff that, when it comes to our profession, I think as an administrator, you're setting your people up for failure if you don't give them the tools to be successful. Society is changing. Our profession is changing. I have done this job more than most cops that. A lot of cops have been alive. I mean I'm on my. I started in 87. So what is out? 36, 37 years? I've I've done the work right. You're setting people up for failure if you don't give them the tools. We're not doing the same.
Speaker 3:When I started law enforcement, we all carried wheel guts and you know we didn't hardly wear vest and we didn't have in car cameras and we didn't have body-worn cameras and we we didn't fully understand the dynamics of intimate partner violence and and sexual assault. We didn't understand the neurobiology of trauma and how that presents with the victim. We didn't understand trauma and how it manifests itself after somebody's been, you know, assaulted. All of these things We've learned in the last few decades. Why are we failing to train our officers that there's this segment of society that you just can't ignore, you you know it's, some people are like, well, if it's not there, then we don't have to deal with it. Well, you know, when Mount Helens was a dormant volcano for many, many years but eventually it blew up right, like, yeah, you have to address, right, address it. So I think hopefully that gets to your. You know, to answer the question that you were asking, is we just have to do better at Providing our officers with the tools to be absolutely successful.
Speaker 1:So when we go into the courtroom then mm-hmm, things Change even more, they expand even more. There's more people involved in that. In the case of violence which may be between same-sex couples, can be cisgender. But Are there, is there space for a Expert to testify and explain the experience of domestic violence, intimate partner violence, sexual violence from an LGBTQI plus perspective?
Speaker 3:absolutely.
Speaker 1:Is it and is this happening? Is this happening?
Speaker 3:It is in some areas. Yeah, I think we're getting better in Bringing experts in to explain things to jurors that they ordinarily wouldn't understand.
Speaker 1:When I started law enforcement, I didn't understand trauma, didn't understand it at all I have to say, it was very refreshing to hear a member of law enforcement say the words neurobiology.
Speaker 2:First police officer on the podcast who's ever said that?
Speaker 1:to that phrase well, thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 3:But you know we don't. I didn't understand it, right, like like. So how do you expect a jury to understand those complex details? Mm-hmm, because we have been programmed in society that people act and behave a certain way, and and when somebody acts contradictory to that and you don't give them a educated understanding of why they fall back to their, you know what their beliefs were before. So I think it's very important to Bring in experts to talk to jurors, right? Who are these experts? Oh, there's a variety. They could be advocates that understand the LGBTQ plus community. That could be other law enforcement officers, people that you know are in the judiciary, that there's. There's study after study that's been out there that show that when it comes to the rate of intimate partner violence and sexual violence, the rate is as high, if not higher, within the queer community than it is in others and, and specifically, if you're talking about trans and Trans of color, right. So being able to educate a jury about that, I Think, just informs them.
Speaker 1:That's the yeah, I wanted to, I wanted to make sure listeners have Examples or resources, or just point them in the direction of who these experts might be, so that they could investigate or find an expert. If they start looking for an expert, if they want one certainly you can reach out.
Speaker 3:You know you. Not every advocate is an expert with the LGBTQ plus community, right, but you have to find the ones that that are. There are many resource centers within the state of Texas. Dallas has several of them right. Houston, big Montrose Center in Houston. There's national experts that are there. We have resources in Austin that will travel right, that that that will go ahead and in, reach out and and give that information to a juror so that the trier facts can weigh it. It's up, it's up to them to weigh the information right. It's not swing them one or the other, you're just giving him the information. I'm sure somebody will try to come back in and argue against it. But if you don't even give that to a juror, how do you expect a juror to fully understand the unique dynamics that were present in an intimate partner, same-sex intimate partner, violence, relationship, right, and why a victim may have responded the way that a victim or survivor responded?
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think those are great points, those are great points, and I hope people will have an idea of the types of professionals they could contact and like what backgrounds they should have to be considered Experts. I'm curious, though Are these ex, those types of expert witnesses, often allowed, or does the defense try to shoot them down? Well, I mean, I don't know if you don't know you don't, it's okay.
Speaker 3:I'm just curious like no, no, no, because I know that.
Speaker 1:I know that it's hard to be qualified as a subject matter expert or a fact expert, so as a subject matter expert in a court of law.
Speaker 3:You just have to be able to demonstrate to the judge that on that particular subject you know more than the average person. That's all. A that's all a subject matter expert is in court is Is to be able that you can explain to a judge and they'll have to have a hearing Right where the judge will have to determine whether or not somebody is a subject matter expert on something. But you just have to demonstrate to the judge that you know more than the average person Concerning that subject and then the judge would.
Speaker 3:What does an HUS such? But I think failing to bring the judge to the court and I think failing to bring those dynamics forward. For instance, one of the first Sexual assault cases I worked when I was in sex crimes many years ago and to my knowledge it is still the only male on male serial rapist we had in Austin and the individual was a Substitute teacher at a particular school district and he would pray on Young 17, 18, 19 year old Hispanic males. Um, and all of their Reporting was delayed, which we know working in the arena Of sexual violence. Right delayed reports are the norm, not the exception. Vast majority of all the reports don't come in, they're not in the acute report right.
Speaker 3:Plus you, you throw on that he was from the Hispanic community, the. The victims were, and the suspect as well, um, and so those, those victims, had quite a journey to go through to be able to feel like they were comfortable enough to access the criminal justice system and I wish I could say I had a better outcome. But but at the time our district attorney office that we had at the time did not. They came to me often to ask me for expert advice, which I gave them, but they've, they Did not use me in trial. They subsequently pled the case out, um, to some misdemeanor offenses didn't necessarily agree with. But but back to your point of if they just would have somebody come in and talk about why there may be some barriers to young Hispanic gay males Accessing the criminal justice system, I think we could have that conversation and at the time this wasn't that far away from, you know, lawrence v Texas.
Speaker 3:That was decided in 2003. This was just a few years after that, um, so Just being able to have an expert come in and talk about that for the jury's consideration Could help them understand maybe the delay or why some of them stayed One. You know a couple of them. It was intimate partner violence. He was their boyfriend, right and um Understand those dynamics. I think it's important to give that information to the jury for them to consider.
Speaker 1:Well, I've got a lot of questions about that case, so that's going to be a separate, separate episode for us, because I'm about to go down a rabbit hole that we were never coming back out. So, but we have some more information to get through. Let's talk about the media's role, um, or or their lack of attention really, to violence against the gay community, transgender community.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm, I don't. I don't know why there has been A lack of media coverage on that. I know, I know that there's still a lot of people that whenever you even mention the term lgbtq or talk about that, it is very polarizing, um, it is very hateful right now for a lot of members of my community and society. Um, and I don't know if they just I. I would like to think that they don't just think it's Because I know it is newsworthy. I wish I had a better answer why they're not covering it more. I wish that they, I wish that they would and show that other than I know that there is a lot of pushback that we sometimes get. Um, maybe Surprisingly.
Speaker 3:I'll relay this that happened last year during pride here in Austin. So the Austin police department, um, is very proud of all of its members. Um, and every year we, every month that we try to celebrate we, we celebrate Women in policing. We're part of the 30 by 30 program. We celebrate, you know, uh, african-american black history month. We celebrate that. We sped is celebrate hispanic heritage month, and so we we're also showcasing officers during pride. And when you looked at at what happened with um, our facebook posts when we did the pride presentation, there was so much Hate that came back and, as a matter of fact, there was Several of our officers that were featured in each one of these other months With very positive comments, and then that officer was was featured In pride month and there was negative comments on social media, on social media.
Speaker 1:Um, this was this was actually this wasn't 2020.
Speaker 3:This is actually 2022. Um, I keep forgetting we're in 2024 already. So it was challenging because it's the same officers and you respected and liked them when they were in Women, in Policing Month and Black History Month, but yet we put them in Pride Month and now there's hate and there's pushback and I don't know if that's the reluctance maybe on some of the rest of the media to put more of that information out there because it is polarizing, I don't know. I was just kind of relaying what we witnessed and what we saw in the negative comments versus the positive comments, and they were substantial.
Speaker 1:I think that this really gives us a moment for reflection right about all of what is involved in media, and it's not just the news, it's social media and, as you pointed out, and who's allowed to say what. But I was actually thinking more about covering the stories of crimes against, you know, crimes of sexual violence against people in the transgender community, for example. They're lacking, I mean, they're like not in the news. You know, if it's a black woman, even less likely to get covered. If it's a gay black woman or a transgender black woman, you might as well forget it.
Speaker 3:And I think that what I was just speaking about earlier. I think that was. Maybe that's it. Maybe they're just afraid of the backlash and the push and the height that comes out from society when they run stories like that. But the bottom line is, my response to all those people that are pushing back is like but these folks are part of society.
Speaker 1:Well, it's the same story as when you were working on the construction site and this guy thought you were great and you had a great day, and then he finds out that you're a gay man and then, all of a sudden, things just get turned upside down for him. Correct, that's his problem, not yours.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about recruitment of police officers because, from what I understand, recruitment and entry into law enforcement is down. How significant is that reduction and what is law enforcement doing to recruit people from all walks of life, including LGBTQI plus?
Speaker 3:So what I know is a lot of departments are like really hurting staffing-wise, and there's a variety of reasons for that. We go through cycles, but I think that you need to actively look in new places that you haven't looked at before. There's some dynamics over zennials and millennials and most people that get into law enforcement to have a career in law enforcement it's a 20, 25, 30 year commitment. Some of the younger generation it's hard to wrap their mind around something that's a 30 year commitment or a 25 year commitment. So maybe there's some innovative ways of looking at that. And then you need to start going to areas that we've never looked at before and, as I said, most of the studies that are out now the latest studies you see from Gallup and others is that when it comes to the zennial population, which is the new generation, or the new generation not population but generation that we're recruiting from that we're going to almost 20 to 25% are queer identified.
Speaker 3:So I think it's a very viable market, but you have to market yourself to being a career field that people can find success in. You have to market yourself to being a career field just like in any other career field, where people are gonna feel welcomed and accepted and supported. It's a challenging job that we do this profession and, every single day, what we go through, what society goes through, right. It is a challenge to do this and do it well for any length of time, and you can only do this if you feel supported and respected by your chain of command, by the bosses, by the community that you have the privilege of working for. So I think you have to consider strongly the LGBTQI community and start marketing yourselves to that community that may have never thought that public safety was an option or public service was an option for them to step into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean to your point. The demographics that you're serving as police officers are changing, and it's not just the LGBTQI plus population. There's different and changing ethnicities coming into the country. They're more Spanish speaking people in the country. There are a lot of skills, both hard skills, like tactical stuff, and soft skills, that you need to have if you're going to police in this country, and policing is changing right, especially after the murder of George Floyd and because policing has a very negative connotation right now.
Speaker 1:There's still a sting of everything that happened in 2020 and just thereafter and the uprisings and the way that police treated people who live in this country, and so change is good. Change is also challenging. It challenges all of us, and so I challenge the law enforcement to then really take a hard look at what people need and how to best serve them, and I know I can only say, like what goes on here in Dallas, we have an excellent relationship with Dallas police department and work very closely with them on issues related to domestic violence and sexual violence, and so I do think that in some areas of the country you said there were 18,000 plus law enforcement agencies in this country they're not all bad, right, there's some really good things happening and speaking of good things, I wanted to ask you about the LGBT Law Enforcement Liaison Academy and accreditation program. What are those things?
Speaker 3:So that's run by a friend of mine, Greg Moglia, the friend and colleague that I've known for quite a few years. I find the value of them. So, anytime you can bring that diversity and just educate folks, people are afraid of things they just don't know. Right, and being it right, it's the boogie man, it's what's behind the curtain, it's something I don't know. So, bringing liaisons in, training them, educating them so that they can help educate others about the history, about the dynamics, right, If you want to get to know a community I've said this over and over again I don't care which community it is, whether or not it's an immigrant community coming in from the Sudan or from the Czech Republic or from, you know, somewhere from the Pacific Rim, anybody.
Speaker 3:You have to understand their history, you have to understand their culture and you have to understand their language and their terminology. Right, and the queer community is very much the same. We have our history, we have our unique culture, right, and there are certain terms that you know if said can be offensive and not offensive. You know, like using the term lifestyle or using the term you know tranny, things like that, Like all of those are very, very charged responses, but giving yourself the opportunity to understand that. If you understand those aspects of things in a liaison can help you with that, I think you become better as a department.
Speaker 3:I cannot imagine, I cannot imagine a chief executive who tells people I care about my officers. I can't imagine, like when I listen to the governor and I listen to the lieutenant governor, I listen to others sit there and talk about how and chief executives, like I care about my troops, I am here for my folks and you have elected officials who say those things. Right, If you truly do care, then you have to be open to understand that your workforce is changing, like society, and you've got to be able to give them that knowledge base of what some of your employees are facing and dealing with. And I think the liaisons are really good at explaining that, explaining the history right. Like we don't get into law enforcement, none of us get in it for the job, I mean for the money, let me tell you it's not that right, Because none of us are millionaires, or very few of us I guess.
Speaker 3:We get in it because there's this innate desire to serve and it's this innate desire to try to be protectors and not being able to educate those folks and giving them the tools where they understand and they can truly protect and serve every aspect of their community is a failure on administrations for not providing that information, and I guess you can take the position I've got we're just not going to talk about them. Well, that's ridiculous. Does that mean we don't prepare for when a hurricane's about to come hit Houston, Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Okay, we're back to Mount St Helens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know exact same thing again, like and I think that's the bottom line of why liaisons are important because it demystifies a lot of us. That was one of the reasons for the association that we formed Service Education Protection right To educate people about us. So we demystify whatever myths or you know tropes you may have thought of us, which in turns help us be better at engaging our community and meeting all of our community's needs, living forward.
Speaker 1:That sounds good to me. Michael, before I let you go for law enforcement officers who really care about intimate partner violence and want to help victims and survivors, but struggle with working with and for the LGBTQI plus community, what would you want to share with them?
Speaker 3:First off, we're just people and quite a few of us are the most amazing people you're ever gonna have the opportunity to meet. But I encourage each officer, each public servant take the time to get to know us, our community, allow us the opportunity to get to know the amazing, courageous, funny, compassionate and heroic person that you are.
Speaker 1:Excellent advice. Unfortunately, we are out of time, but I am so glad that I had the opportunity to connect with you again today and we look forward to seeing you in May at the Conference on Crimes Against Women in Dallas, Texas. Thank you, Michael.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. Registration for the 2024 Conference on Crimes Against Women is now available. The 2024 conference will be held in Dallas, texas, at the Sheraton Dallas, may 20th through the 23rd. Visit our website at conferencecaworg to learn more and register today, and follow us on social media at nationalCCAW for updates about the conference, featured events, presenters and more. We will be back with a more powerful center of communication.