Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a New York Times bestselling author and the world's foremost expert on narcissism, joins us for an eye opening and candid conversation about narcissism and how to heal from the trauma it causes. Relying heavily on Dr. Ramani's latest book, "It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People," we peel away the layers of confusion for victims ensnared by charismatic abusers, illuminate the societal shadows where these predators lurk, and chart a course for survivors toward understanding and healing. The episode also clarifies what it means to experience gaslighting, the distinctions between everyday narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and provides a compass for distinguishing between these complex behaviors and their profound effects on intimate relationships. Together, we underscore the power of radical acceptance in the healing process and advocate for the strength found in community and survivorship. This empowering dialogue will not only educate but also extend a lifeline to those seeking clarity and solid ground.
Dr. Ramani Durvasula, a New York Times bestselling author and the world's foremost expert on narcissism, joins us for an eye opening and candid conversation about narcissism and how to heal from the trauma it causes. Relying heavily on Dr. Ramani's latest book, "It's Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People," we peel away the layers of confusion for victims ensnared by charismatic abusers, illuminate the societal shadows where these predators lurk, and chart a course for survivors toward understanding and healing. The episode also clarifies what it means to experience gaslighting, the distinctions between everyday narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and provides a compass for distinguishing between these complex behaviors and their profound effects on intimate relationships. Together, we underscore the power of radical acceptance in the healing process and advocate for the strength found in community and survivorship. This empowering dialogue will not only educate but also extend a lifeline to those seeking clarity and solid ground.
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics multiple forms of violence, and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
Speaker 2:In this country, 31 million crimes 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes there is a murder. Every five minutes there is a rape. Every two to five minutes there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business and I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
Speaker 1:Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women. I'm Maria McMullin. New York Times bestselling author. Dr Ramani Dharvasala is with us to discuss the complexities of domestic violence committed by people with narcissistic personality disorder. Because this personality disorder is often concealed behind the more appealing facets of an offender's personality, the abuse and violence they commit often go unchecked. Additionally, the damage left behind takes a backseat to the fascination with those who possess these disorders. This episode will take a deep dive into the world of narcissism and other personality disorders and discuss how victims and survivors of these behaviors can seek healing.
Speaker 1:Romani DeRosala is a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, california, professor emerita of psychology at California State University, los Angeles, and the founder and CEO of Luna Education, training and Consulting, a company focused on educating individuals, clinicians and businesses or institutions on the impact of narcissistic personality styles. Dr Romney received her BA from the University of Connecticut, her MA and PhD from UCLA and completed her clinical training at the UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute. She is the author of multiple books, including the New York Times bestselling it's Not you Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People, a faculty member for the APA Leadership Institute for Women in Psychology and a consulting editor for the journal Behavioral Medicine. Dr Romney also operates a popular YouTube channel and podcast called Navigating Narcissism and has developed an educational and certification program for clinicians working with clients experiencing the fallout of narcissistic relationships.
Speaker 1:Dr Romney, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. You have a new book on the market. It's titled it's Not you Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People. And congratulations, by the way, on the book. I mean it's a huge accomplishment. It's a New York Times instant bestseller and that is amazing instant bestseller, and that is amazing.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. I mean I'm so grateful I had the opportunity to write this book, to get it out into the world, that people are getting it and hopefully benefiting from it. So I thank you for that. But it's time we sort of told this story. We're so fascinated by narcissism that we often don't stop to really reflect on the harm that these patterns have on other people and, more importantly, if those harms come, how do people heal?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you mentioned in the book, and this is a quote. It's a guide for survivorship, a testament to the blessings of community that make healing possible. Tell us more about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so many survivors of these relationships are incredibly isolated, and if they're not literally isolated and separated from supports, it's a psychological loneliness and isolation. Because where narcissism is a very unique kind of a problem for people is that narcissistic people often show up as charming, charismatic, successful, so the people around the survivor may not even sort of register that they're in a relationship that's problematic. They may look at their lifestyle, their life, even how this person again their partner or family member, whomever it is shows up. There's a loneliness in that and that as soon as people start talking to other people in community, understand that there are other people who've gone through exactly what they went through, and it is not just about people who are shrinking violets or people who are sort of of low self-esteem that are targeted by narcissistic people.
Speaker 3:People it doesn't matter who you are. In fact, oftentimes the more successful and compelling you are, the more likely a narcissistic person will target you. And so it is a guide for people to survive to know that surviving and thriving are not only possible but likely, that you don't necessarily have to leave the relationship, that you can do things on your own timeframe but, above all else, you're not alone. You really aren't alone. So many people are going through this and I think it's just now after I mean all of history people being silent about it we finally have a name for it and people are starting to understand like, yeah, no, this isn't okay for someone to do this to me in a relationship. And now I understand why I responded the way I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's certainly not okay for someone to treat you like that in a relationship. I could sit here and quote this, this book, this new book of yours, all day, but I want to. I do want to call out another passage in the book and then hopefully we can unpack all the content that's in this passage. So it comes from page 306, which is either in the end or it's in the conclusion. To understand narcissistic abuse is to decolonize psychology and push back on old theories and models that don't make allowances for the harms of hierarchies, disparity, privilege and traditionalism. I have watched thousands of survivors walk this tight rope and have balanced on it myself, and together we have learned that healing is possible, albeit messy. Their stories and mine remind me not just of the tyranny of narcissistic abuse, but also of the courage of believing that there is always the chance for one more act. Let's talk about that.
Speaker 3:There's a lot of stuff in that there really is.
Speaker 1:I mean the whole book.
Speaker 3:right there is in those couple of sentences so this isn't just about one person in a relationship with one person or even one family. This is about systems that have existed for thousands of years and that have really allowed these patterns often to be silenced, for people to just learn that this is how it is, or be told that this is how it is and just go along. It's about power being viewed as a normalized relational dynamic and it's also about recognizing that the power or the voice we have in a relationship, even if it's between us and just one other person, that's also shaped by all these forces around us, like socioeconomic status or social class, like race and ethnicity and gender and sexual orientation and gender identity and a million other things. And so, as the world also kind of cuts down our voices and that's happening in a relationship, you can see how people it's a wonder anyone sometimes gets out of these relationships, and I want people to understand the deep courage and traditionally, I have to say, psychology has been a field developed by people who had a lot of power in society so for them to spout out things like change how you think and you'll change how you feel, it's not that simple when somebody is in an abusive system. They don't understand because it doesn't show up as usual abuse. It's not showing up as physical abuse or physical violence or someone screaming at you in public, and it might actually resemble how a person grew up, but there was no physical abuse, so it doesn't clock. We only recently have really opened up this conversation on emotional abuse in a significant way, recognizing its effects to be on par with all other forms of abuse. So this conversation, just like trauma I look at how far we've come in the last 25 years in the conversation in trauma.
Speaker 3:But this idea that number one, that you can just change how you think and everything will be fine, no. And number two, that both parties in a relationship carry responsibility for what's happening. And that's what the DV world has been pushing back on that since the 1970s. But the fact is is that do not tell me that just because somebody's staying in a relationship, that they're participating in a dynamic, they may not have options. Just because a person doesn't have money, that doesn't mean that they're complicit in a relational dynamic, they have no options.
Speaker 3:And so a lot of the relationship literature. It pushes people to self-reflect and say, well, what are you bringing into the table? And I don't find that a need for attachment to be something we pathologize someone for. So that's what I mean by decolonizing it, to really recognize how all these forces are operating as well, and we live in a world that engages in sort of basically idolization of narcissistic people.
Speaker 3:You know, if you're grandiose and loud and mouthy and rich and powerful, well then you're today's hero, and when that's being put out there and you're in a relationship with someone who has those qualities, you're considered lucky. So we've got to also change the paradigm that sure, those qualities may lead to innovation and making lots of money, but they're not what's good in a relationship, and so that sort of takes us to that final point, which is, yeah, healing is very possible, and I feel like our world is struggling in many ways. There's also hope in many ways, but we are struggling, and part of it is our unwillingness to address this, and the therapists in the room, the advocates in the room, need to be willing to see this for what it is and stop asking people how they're complicit in a dynamic that's harming them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree with that. There are a couple of other guidelines in the book, of course. There are a lot of them in the book where you kind of help people understand how to work through this process of being in this relationship. And I did notice there's a kind of like four tools to protect yourself from a narcissist and I wanted to call these out for people, just if they take nothing else away. Let's know what these are. Become gaslight resistant. Reframe your internal thoughts. Build firewalls against narcissism and disengage from the enablers. I mean, those seem so simple, but it is not especially the first one. Become gaslight resistant yeah, so becoming gaslight resistant means number one.
Speaker 3:You need to know what gaslight resistant yeah. So becoming gaslight resistant means number one. You need to know what gaslighting is in the first place. So when it's happening to you, it doesn't mean you call it out. It means that you're like, oh, this is happening. And if this is happening, this is actually not okay, because gaslighting is not a disagreement.
Speaker 3:Gaslighting isn't even someone just lying to you. Gaslighting is someone attempting to destabilize you so ultimately they can take advantage of you and overpower you. That's not okay. I'm not saying lying is okay, but lying is something sometimes people will do to protect themselves. And if you call a liar out, they'll often say, yeah, I lied to you, I should have done that. I get that, but I did because I was embarrassed, right? That's very different than someone who's fully trying to destabilize you. It's also not gaslighting if it's a difference of opinion. I mean the two of you might say one of you might say that was a great movie and the other one would say it was a terrible movie. You don't turn around and say you'd stop gaslighting me. It was actually a good movie. No, they had a different experience of that movie.
Speaker 3:And so I think that the challenge is is that people engage with gaslighters, and understandably so. When somebody's dismantling our reality, our experiences, our perceptions, our memories, our identities, we want to defend ourselves. We want to say whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And that makes sense. The challenge is that the more we defend ourselves, the deeper we get pulled into the quicksand, because that's when they're going to start dismantling us. And this works because the gaslighter is someone we care about, someone we respect, someone at some level we trust and value. It could be a family member, it could be a partner, it could be an authority in a field, it could be someone we work with. So that's why it's plausible for us to listen to them and, by and large, most empathic, decent, compassionate people will say I can't assume I'm always right and maybe they are right, and that even that tiny little bit of belief that what they're saying is right means that we're sort of destabilizable, which means we're all destabilizable, because nobody should get rid of their empathy or their willingness to be circumspect or see both sides of a situation. That's how things get done, but that gets capitalized on in these relationships. So becoming gaslight resistant means understanding what it is, giving yourself permission to disengage, engaging in daily practices that allow you to touch back into yourself.
Speaker 3:If you've been through one of these relationships long enough, you don't even know what kind of pizza you like. You don't even sometimes know what kind of TV shows you like. You're like I don't know, I guess I just watch what's on right. But if you had the remote, what would you pick? And when we start work with survivors early on, they'll say I don't know, I don't know. And it's a moment because you realize that so much of their subjective reality was hijacked that even preferences aren't known.
Speaker 3:And so I go to back to basics with clients. I say okay, so basic things. What temperature do you like thermostat at? They're like I don't know. Like let's play with that, especially if they're out of the relationship now and they have their own thermostat. Like I'm kind of feeling some 68 here. It was always kept at 61, but Ooh, this 68,. This feels really nice.
Speaker 3:Or they might say I always loved Joe's Pizza better. I'm going to go to Joe's Pizza, even though I wasn't allowed to for 10 years because I was told that only dumb people go to Joe's Pizza. And I say and then I want you to pay attention how you feel in your body when you eat that first piece of Joe's Pizza, like it was as good as I remember. So you're bringing people back to themselves in the tiniest little ways. This isn't some big existential mountain to climb, it's basic stuff. It's giving yourself permission to say you know, tonight I want to stay home because that's what feels right. Okay, you know, and that wasn't once a choice they had.
Speaker 3:So it's again. It's ascending back into autonomy and individuation and your own preferences. It's building new relationships. One of the biggest tools for healing is having at least one, two, if you're lucky three people who won't gaslight you, who will hear you, who will validate you, even if they disagree with you. We'll say, yeah, that was really hard, I'm so sorry, or whatever it may be. They won't leave you feeling like there's something wrong with you. A therapist could be that. Old friends maybe, friends that you return to because you're starting to say I'm no longer going to be isolated. But all those things can combine to make you more gaslight, resistant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's excellent advice. I don't need to tell you that you already know because you wrote a whole book about it, but I think it's really helpful to have a proper framework for some of these terms, gaslighting being one of them, because I think that they get tossed around maybe by people who don't really understand the full definition or trying to be funny or flip about what these terms mean. So, to get to the point where you could actually publish this book with so much rich information, you have conducted decades of work and research and likely had hundreds, maybe thousands of clients I don't know and it's from your work that we can narrow in upon these definitions. Like I was just talking about, gaslighting narcissism, and I think that having those concepts made really clear is critical. So you've helped many of us, myself included, use the term narcissism correctly, so maybe you can kind of help us have an accurate definition of narcissism and how to distinguish between narcissistic traits and tendencies and then maybe narcissistic personality disorder.
Speaker 3:Right. So I would say that it's a false differentiation. The only thing that makes something narcissistic personality disorder is that a person has sit in a room with a licensed mental health practitioner who has formally diagnosed them. That's the difference around in the world with narcissistic personality disorder. But we're never going to know that because they're never going to be evaluated. And there's plenty of people with narcissistic personality disorder whose narcissism is not nearly as severe as that of people who have been diagnosed with this disorder. It's really all about being evaluated, right? There's also people walking around the world with all kinds of illnesses. They don't know what they have, that they have because they've never had the test for the illness. It's the same thing.
Speaker 3:So I think that the focus on NPD is a misplaced focus because it gets people obsessed with well, do they have it? Do they have it? Do they have it Like? If they have the personality and it's getting in the way of their lives which it may not be seeming like it's getting in the way of their lives, but it's definitely causing harm in the world then they likely have it. But if they haven't seen someone to get it evaluated, we don't get to say it. I could if I saw them as a patient, but I couldn't even do that to a stranger because I haven't seen them in that really carefully curated space. But can we meet someone and make the assessment that they're narcissistic? Sure, it's the same thing, but the difference between the evaluation and how much it's getting in the way of their life. But, by definition, being narcissistic gets in the way of their lives.
Speaker 3:And so what is narcissism? It's a personality style, and it's a personality style that is maladaptive, pervasive, stable, rigid, and it consists of things like shallow, hollow, shallow, hollow. Performative, low empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, self-centeredness, reactive when anyone even gives them the slightest kind of feedback or even small observation about them, and all of these traits together translate into behaviors and relationships, including manipulation and invalidation gaslighting. There's lots of rage anytime, their shame gets activated. There's betrayal, there is blame shifting, they don't take responsibility, there's false promises that are made, there's lots of interpersonal neglect.
Speaker 3:Narcissistic people have a capacity to show up in the world as very charming, charismatic, confident and successful, and yet behind closed doors, with friends, confident and successful, and yet behind closed doors with friends, family members, partners, employees, be very cruel and heartless, and that disconnect can be very confusing. And all of these traits, the lack of empathy and the grandiosity and all of it. They're all defenses against the deep shame and insecurity that narcissistic people feel. And the problem is is that the narcissistic folks don't typically go into therapy to address it. They may go into therapy to address something else, but not that. So it remains an unaddressed pattern and, by and large, narcissistic people regulate by lashing out at other people. Once they lash out, they often feel better. They don't like that. The lashing out doesn't make them look good, so they'll blame the other person. Well, you made me do that. You made me say that I wouldn't have behaved like that if you were a better person. So then the other person is not only being abused, but they're being blamed for the abuse. That's narcissism.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, that's a great definition and it definitely gives us a picture of what this behavior would look like in our daily lives. And it doesn't have to be always in your intimate relationship, it can be in a lot.
Speaker 3:Oh, it can be if it's a human relationship and one of the people in the relationship is narcissistic. You can be in a narcissistic relationship. Work, friendships, family, extended family obviously partners, that's where we see it the most but definitely in the workplace. Big decisions that involve your fate or your pay or your work responsibilities, that can really throw off the rest of your life. You can mean your career is thrown off kilter. It could mean you're harassed in the workplace and nothing is done about it.
Speaker 3:And narcissism in the workplace can show up in three ways. It can be top down, that leadership is attacking and harming and abusing you. It could be horizontally, so your colleague, someone's at your equal level, is undermining you. Maybe you're having to do more of their job. They're lying to you, they're not keeping you in the loop. And it can be happening from your people who are supposed to directly report to you, so people who are under you in a hierarchy. They can also be narcissistically abusing you believe it or not, and they can. You know all kinds of things. They can threaten litigation. I don't have to do that.
Speaker 3:Behave in an entitled manner and make the workplace a very problematic place. And then the workplace, depending on what kind of work you do. You might be interfacing with clients, patients, students. All of those people could also be narcissistic as well, so it can be coming at you from so many directions in the workplace. I would say the more empowered the narcissistic person is in the workplace, sometimes we see more harm. But let's say you work with someone who actually reports to you but is very abusive and yet you're being told there's nothing you can do about it. That can also feel really awful because you basically have someone who's not doing their job and is often setting a precedent that's confusing all of the people who they're working with. So it's messy either way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds messy. You authored another book called Should I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist, and so that kind of takes us through some of these different challenges of being in these relationships and then deciding if you need to get out or how you want to navigate or continue to navigate this relationship. I'd love to understand how specifically narcissism shows up in relationships where people are experiencing domestic violence or sexual abuse.
Speaker 3:It's a great question. So I'm going to make a statement here that probably some people will push back on, including those in the DV community. But I think nothing's make a statement here that probably some people will push back on, including those in the DV community. But I think nothing's ever 100% in what we do. But I'd say pretty damn close to 100% of domestic abusers are likely narcissistic. And because narcissism is also highly correlated with psychopathy and sociopathy and things like that, that's I'm taking in that territory too. And why do I say that with such conviction? Here you have a person who's entered into a relationship, an intimate relationship, with some proclamation of trust, connection and love, and they are able to emotionally, physically, perhaps sexually harm that other person. That shows a lack of empathy, that shows an entitlement, that shows an arrogance, it shows a grandiosity, it shows all of it, right? Maybe stuff like the admiration, validation stuff may not be present, but there is an impulsivity, all the things we see in narcissism, right, and here's why I think that's an important observation.
Speaker 3:There was a lot of pushback on this framing of it back in the 70s, the belief being because everyone thinks narcissism and NPD are the same thing. They are not, and I don't think our thinking was as evolved as it should have been back then. Hell, the narcissistic personality disorder didn't even get into the DSM, I think, until 1980. So this is new. And even then there was a pushback of if we identify that there's quote unquote something wrong with the perpetrator, then we're going to make the mistake of putting all of our intervention focus on the perpetrator, trying to solve the so-called problem, and not address the behavior. I fully understand that approach, but the thing that that approach missed was we know narcissism is damn near impossible to change. The reactivity, the abuse, all of that they don't tend to do well with consequences. They rarely face them. Most systems will not place consequences on them. Because of the nature of this personality, the idea that this is wrong, or this is someone you're supposed to care about or this is someone you're supposed to love, was never going to stop. That the impulsivity meant that they were going to do what they wanted. That would regulate them, the perpetrator, and then they would make their apologies to avoid being viewed badly, but it was really never about the harm that they were bringing onto their partners. That's a narcissistic framework and what we do know is that that's not likely to change. So what it did mean is, if somebody was in these relationships, the relationship was not likely to change.
Speaker 3:And when you look at the DV, the academic, scholarly literature, I would estimate that somewhere between 85 and 90% of that research is perpetrator focused. How do we work? Is largely social work, focused, psychosocial resources, housing and I get all that's important. But what we do not address is that really using that narcissism framework, the psychology of this. And I have worked with DV survivors who said, okay, this is very helpful, because a lot of the classical patterns and don't get me wrong, a lot of survivors are trauma bondedbonded in these relationships. But trauma-bonded isn't codependency, trauma-bonded isn't I'm comfortable with being abused. Trauma-bonded is a dynamic that most times the person doesn't fully understand until it's explained to them, and so I think it is endemic in this world and I don't think you can understand DV without understanding narcissism. I think they're that closely interlinked and that framing is typically not used.
Speaker 1:So when you talk about trauma bonding, do you mean something like Stockholm Syndrome?
Speaker 3:seemingly kind of. It's experienced as an unbreakable, almost somatic link to a person who is in an emotionally or otherwise abusive relationship and that bond is formed by the alternation of good and bad that happens in that relationship and the unpredictability of that alternation. So it leaves the person in that relationship thinking another good day could be coming when the next good day comes. It's really at a neurotransmitter level it's a little bit of a dopamine hit. There's a soothing, it buys more time.
Speaker 3:The bad thing happens and over time, as the bad things happen, the person in the trauma-bonded relationship blames themselves more and more and starts to feel complicit in the dynamic. Conflicts are repeated and never resolved and the person in the trauma-bonded relationship feels as though they have to be a one-stop shop. They have to be everything. They have to be partner, life coach, chef, sex partner, driver, you name it. They have to be all of those things.
Speaker 3:And so because of that, even when a person many trauma-bonded people will say this relationship is a mess, but the idea of leaving it, I'm literally having panic symptoms, it kind of makes sense. So, helping them understand that intermittent activation, helping them understand the cognitive dissonance of how they try to make the pieces fit why they're afraid of leaving. And then even the psychoeducation around like listen, this doesn't change. So if you leave this relationship, this is just going to continue. But what if they meet someone else I'm like? Well, you can send them a condolence card if that helps you feel better, but this next person is going to go through the same thing. Their behavior doesn't change.
Speaker 1:So that's what is meant by trauma bonding? Yeah, that's extremely helpful. You have learned so much about narcissism and taught so much about it, and yet I also read that when you were in your graduate programs for psychology, narcissism just wasn't mentioned.
Speaker 3:No, no, I went to I mean I went to a magnificent graduate program, learned tons research. It was fantastic. It was not until the very end. So when I was doing my clinical internship so it was a clinical training year almost towards the end of that year that one of my supervisors said the word once. That was the first time I said it. I was almost six years into my training and it was at the end. It never came up in the actual curriculum of the program.
Speaker 3:We weren't taught about personality. We weren't taught about personality disorders. We weren't taught about how these show up. We weren't taught about how vexing they can be in treatment.
Speaker 3:So a lot of times a lot of budding clinicians, emerging clinicians, will say I feel like I'm a bad clinician because I'm not getting anywhere with this patient. And we'll be doing these students a world of good if we could say there's limits on how far you're going to be able to go with this client. It doesn't mean that they don't deserve high quality treatment. I think that's something that everybody has the right to. But this is going to be a tougher nut to crack and so we just wasn't talked about. And even when I started doing research into this around 2003 or so. Even then, my own mentor said he's like you're so promising, why are you blowing up your career like this? This is a terrible thing to focus on. It's hard to get funded. I said, yeah, but I think there's something here. I think this is why we're having a lot of inconsistencies in the research, and I never looked back.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you were right. I'm glad you followed your gut down that rabbit hole. You mentioned other personality disorders and I wanted to touch on that too, because there are particular personality disorders that kind of are similar to narcissistic personality disorders, such as histrionic personality disorder, borderline antisocial personality disorder. Could you help us understand what those are and how they impact intimate partner relationships?
Speaker 3:So once upon a time and you may remember this too, is that the DSM-4-TR and all of the versions before that used to take what were called the personality disorders, which were always diagnosed either or either you got it or you're not, based on how many symptoms you have. And they were broken into clusters cluster A, cluster B, cluster C. Cluster B was really the one where the clinicians would put head into hand, saying this is going to be a rough ride, because it's here where we saw an overarching pattern called antagonism, manipulativeness, hostility, grandiosity, arrogance, entitlement. That all lived in that antagonism space and all of the cluster B patterns had that to greater or lesser degrees. So in that group what you said histrionic, borderline, narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders, antisocial personality disorder more people clock. That now is what we call psychopathy, right? So these are all highly correlated, very highly correlated, so much so that I don't know that they're really that distinct from each other. And so their overlaps are happening everywhere and as a result, as we sort of learn, as a person sort of learns about these patterns, we then understand how these what we call near neighbor personality styles or personality disorders, people in relationships with folks with any of these disorders or patterns are going through the same thing, right? So the difference is, I would argue that histrionic personality, which is a terrible word, it's very anti-woman and it's like a terrible thing. Every time I say it I sort of shudder. But the histrionic personality style, which is sort of shallow emotionality, exaggerated emotionality, seductiveness, sort of flirtatiousness, lack of depth of emotion, that tracks what we consider almost more of a mild narcissistic style, sort of empathy, is very, again, hollow, shallow is the word that comes to mind.
Speaker 3:Then, as we come into narcissism especially my book it's Not, you is very much on that moderate narcissism, that whole list I gave you before as we veer into more severe narcissism, now we're coming into that world of the psychopathy piece, we're getting more and more contiguous to that, and then we jump into that Borderline and narcissistic personality have an overlap too. Probably almost half the time there's a significant overlap between the traits in those two groups. So this is where, though, there are some people who I've sort of I'd call pure borderline, with none of the narcissistic defenses. Those are clients who are often very despairing and a lot of clinical risk, lots of suicidal risk. But when we get to where the two overlap now, we've got something messy, much more manipulative, a lot more angry, reactive anger, which can be quite dangerous. So it sort of changes its form and it looks a little bit like what we call vulnerable narcissism, which is a more sullen, resentful, victimized, petulant kind of narcissism.
Speaker 3:Of all of those we know, borderline personality has the strongest sort of treatment literature. But the more narcissism comes into the mix, the harder it is to treat the borderline personality. So there's this huge kind of like. All these things are kind of on top of each other and the mistake we make in the conversations is trying to separate it out, Because when it comes down to brass tacks, a person who is in a relationship with someone who has any of these personality styles, they're having pretty similar experiences to greater or lesser degrees, like frustrated, annoyed, confused, angry, anxious, ruminative. It's going to be to greater or lesser degree. A relationship with the so-called histrionic person may not bring up the same level of fear or anxiety, but it's still going to be confusing. When you get up to the levels of psychopathy and more severe narcissism it can be terrifying. So these are very different kinds of reactions, but the core remains the same.
Speaker 1:Are the lethality risks higher for people who are involved in relationships with someone who has a personality disorder?
Speaker 3:So the answer to that is yes. And there was a meta-analysis done in 2021 by Sophie Kiervick and Brad Bushman at Ohio State University largest meta-analysis of its kind over 400 studies and they found very definitively that narcissism was associated with all forms of violence and aggression. So the answer is yes. And why would that be? The thin-skinned nature, the provocability, and that provocation piece was a big mediator in what they were finding is that if the narcissistic person felt provoked, they almost felt galvanized in their need to respond, Like they have to respond angrily, violently, however it may be. It might be verbal aggression, might be physical aggression, but yes, and because of that, the lethality increases, because the verbal violence can escalate depending on the circumstance, right and especially the lack of consequences.
Speaker 3:But when you throw in there that thin skin, provocability, the reactivity, the emotional dysregulation and the impulsivity, all of that together creates a very dangerous person who can and this is, you know, and if you have the, if their weapon, weapons are in the home, firearms or anything like that, it's a disaster. You know, there's, there's very, very poor frustration, tolerance in people with these personality styles and there's also this sense of suspiciousness and almost a chronic victimhood Everyone's out to get me. Nothing's ever fair to me. And when you mix that in with that, that that pension for aggressiveness and the reactivity and the impulsivity, that's a disaster waiting to happen. And it happens all the time, every single day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like a perfect storm. Especially if there are firearms in the home, it just becomes. The risk for lethality was higher for anyone.
Speaker 3:But all of that in the mix it just becomes.
Speaker 1:The risk for lethality was higher for anyone, but all of that in the mix it would just make it like a time bomb. We talk a lot about the offender right and you've said that and in domestic violence we're always trying to turn the conversation so we can focus on the victim or the survivor and how their narrative can be told and how their needs can be put ahead of the person who has been abusing them. So how can we change the narrative to place that focus of safety, security and healing back onto the survivor?
Speaker 3:Above all else, we have to lift this sense of blame and complicity. So much of the conversation is. I mean, think about it. What is the one question where every therapist should never ever social worker anyone should never ask a client is why didn't you leave? Or why did you stay Right there? There's, your answer is we have got to stop.
Speaker 3:The abuser is abusing. That's a complete sentence. Okay, and it's not about you. Okay, and it's not about you being there and it's not about what you said before, and it's not about the financial problems and it's not about their trauma they experienced. Don't get me wrong. I'm the first to tell you those are all contributors, but ultimately they abused you, right, and getting an understanding that the conversation, helping survivors get to that point and you were not responsible for this, is absolutely crucial, and I understand that very well-intentioned people are saying no, no, no.
Speaker 3:We're trying to build up the agency and the efficacy in the survivor, that capacity to know that they have options, great. The worst way to do that is to leave. You don't think they haven't asked themselves why they haven't left. A hundred times a day, after every fight, after every argument, after every hunch, they've asked themselves that over and over again sliding themselves deeper into shame because they don't understand patterns like trauma bonding. So that's number one. Number two we've got to use this framework when it fits. It doesn't mean everyone's supposed to running around saying you're a dead man, you're in an abusive relationship, they're narcissistic. We don't have to. It's not that, it's more these patterns working with clients on patterns, showing patterns when we have been repeatedly harmed and betrayed in a relationship, there are multiple things that are happening at the levels of trauma and trauma processing. There's mild dissociation, there's what Dr Jennifer Fried calls betrayal blindness, this sort of on seeing of things that will disrupt the connection with a partner or an abuser because of all of the downstream effects that that would cause. There's cumulative trauma that this multiplies by prior trauma a person may have experienced. So there's already sort of that system in place for the person to sort of like again, push it out. I always like it. It's not forgotten, it's not denied, it's.
Speaker 3:The analogy I often use is when you move into a new house and there's a closet and it has one of those really high shelves you're like oh how handy storage. Then you put stuff in there and the next time you see this when you move out of the house. There's closets in our brains that have those high shelves that stuff goes into. It's not that the stuff no longer exists, it's that we simply can't access it, and not in any easy way, and then we can't. You know, there's issues like status quo and there's safety, and there's culture and there's religion.
Speaker 3:And we help our clients tease this out so they don't feel crazy and I know that we're not supposed to use the word crazy, but I think it fits here and survivors actually find it useful. We are not navigating these clients through broken hearts. We're navigating through a world where they have been made to feel crazy. This is not about healing a broken heart. This is about uncrazying someone. That's a whole different game and a lot of that. When you lay it all out, they start seeing it and, yes, there's resistance and we move slowly with them and we let them know you don't need to do anything right away. But once we help them see the signal and the noise, they feel less crazy.
Speaker 3:It doesn't mean everyone leaves and a lot of that I mean. Some folks will remain stuck in these systems, sadly to tragic ends. But I think many, many people with that framework, with that awareness, with the recognition it won't change. With the recognition it's not their fault, that there was nothing they or anyone else could have done and that that narcissistic or abusive or whatever antagonistic person they never, they never attempted to to change it, and it becomes an experimental approach. You're like when you did this. This happened, like every solution, cause these clients have tried a thousand ways to change themselves fix themselves, say something, don't say something, become quiet, become small, clean the house don't clean the house. Cut my hair don't cut my hair. The list goes on and so helping them see that.
Speaker 3:But here's the rub when we're dealing with more significant physical, sexual violence, isolation, loss of resource, when we're dealing with things at that much more severe end, you better not be dismantling a system until you have a system in place to receive that person. This is also a resource issue. Housing money, healthcare, childcare, all of those things are part of this equation. So all these things that are happening at a dissociative, trauma-bonded, maintain the status quo level are also survival behaviors that are being based on a very real calculation. I wish we lived in a world where every domestic violence survivor had a safe place to go live. We don't have that, and so when we start dismantling stuff, we had better be sure we've got systems that will receive them, because what happens is, as we help them see it, we have to.
Speaker 3:And again we're talking now in cases where there's physical and sexual violence that tends to be like it's not you as very much focused on moderate narcissistic abuse, where violence is usually not present.
Speaker 3:But when you're getting to that level, there has to be that second system, that sort of structural system to manage this. And so when you give clarity, there's an empowering to it, but there's also a sense, there's a despondency that comes with that, because a lot of folks were actually keeping it going by thinking maybe it could get better. But more people have just been broken down and we have to account for models like complex PTSD, which is often operating for most survivors of long-term domestic violence. And complex PTSD requires trauma-informed work, emdr, somatic therapies, emotionally focused work, work like internal family systems, parts work. You need high quality, accessible, affordable, trauma-informed work for people who have invariably developed CPTSD as a result of this abuse, and that's getting into a different lane now, away from just the traditional narcissistic abuse. But my colleague, dr Ingrid Clayton. She writes about complex PTSD as a result of being narcissistically abused. So when we get to that more severe realm where it has a stronger developmental impact, we can see then that the fallout looks more like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you mentioned access as well, and access to services is critical and not everyone has access. Not everyone knows how to get access to services or what they might even need, even if it's something as simple as developing a safety plan to remain safe in the home or when, if you decide to leave the home. So I want to talk about that, about increasing access and also how people can shield themselves while they're still in the relationship from the offenders who possess these really unhealthy and toxic personalities.
Speaker 3:So the challenges and again I'm going to take it out of the realm of physical danger because I think that raises a different conversation, but also come back to that as well is that what happens in these relationships if a person stays is again removing lethality for a moment is that there has to be clarity for people on the why of their staying. So when people stay they may say I actually see that this is not going to change. I'm aware of that. I'm staying in this because I have a special needs child and family court is still going to split custody and this is going to be too chaotic for this child. So I'm waiting until the child's 18 and then I can put into place a very different kind of a plan. Or a person will say I live in Los Angeles and we never could afford two rents, so I'm going to have to figure out the workarounds on this because I don't have a choice. We might have working with someone who has a family system or from who's from a culture where divorce is very forbidden and to get divorced would be stigmatized and they'd lose what little supports they had remaining. So it's for people to be very open-eyed, because if people are staying because they think this person's going to change. That's not going to work. But if people are remaining in this relationship from a place of that kind of intention, that's actually something we can work with.
Speaker 3:Where it gets tricky is when people stay because they say I love this person, I know it could get better. That's where we're going to see the revolving door and that's just going to be the ongoing patient sort of trauma informed work to not sort of shove their face towards seeing it because they're not ready, but sort of very gradually and gently sort of allow them to accumulate that evidence. And then it's really about disengaging and it is understanding that you're not responsible for their responses. But I think people keep trying. They're trying like, maybe, if I'm this and maybe it's not, none of it's working. So it's really about figuring out, keeping your eye on your true north. What matters here? It could be just shielding your children, and so your focus becomes your children and you do what you need to do to keep those trains running on time.
Speaker 3:But this relationship is no longer a source of solace, support, safety, nothing. You see it as such and you work with it in a very pragmatic way. Is that heartbreaking? Yes, is it depressing, sure, but for some people it's the option that's in front of them and they may still be able to build out other areas of their lives in meaningful ways, whether that's through their children, volunteer work, spiritual communities, support groups, therapy, like it's. Not all is not lost and everyone doesn't have the same sort of story, and so even when they're not pretty stories, there's still a whole person that can emerge, and so that I think that those things can be done.
Speaker 3:But then, when we're elevating it more to more lethality you know connections with DV organizations in your, in your, in your area I mean online access obviously changed the game. I came up in a world where that wasn't. It was hotlines and things like that, and there was a time when none of that existed at all. So, but there are ways to get some of that access. I mean it's it's harder in rural and frontier areas of our country. It's obviously more accessible in urban and suburban areas, but it is connecting to that.
Speaker 3:If for no other reason, you feel a little bit more normal, and those kinds of programs can, in a very intentional way, help people create meaningful safety plans and talk to survivors in a way so they don't feel minimized or they don't feel like they're over-interpreting what's happening, like that's what DV programs are designed is to see that wholly and integrate that person into programming in a way that's safe At times, that are safe using names, that are safe, like keeping things, like they know they know how to do that, so people aren't. There's no therapy bill that's coming in that's going to inflame a partner, but those agencies know how to do that and have a really good understanding of how to protect people and come up with safety plans. So those resources exist and if you live in a big state like California, it's a great example. Urban areas have these, but they serve everyone in California. So it is about how do you and it's hard though.
Speaker 3:It's hard to get those internet connections, it's hard when someone's looking at your search history, all of that, but the agencies are getting really good about no cookies. Things are on track, you can get out of the site quickly, but all of those things become really important in doing this, but also understanding you know people do go back and I think sometimes people feel I did that and all these people helped me and they tried to give me a safety plan and I went back in. Now I feel like a failure. There's no shame in that. That's a very normal trauma response and a whole grace for that. And that doesn't mean you don't get to have help again, you just reach back out. We understand that, that's how it works. We don't feel just like, oh, you wasted my time, it's not that. So it's helping people know all of those things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that really helpful advice. Going back real quick to your book, it's not you identifying and healing from narcissistic people. It's only been out a few weeks, right? Yeah, yeah, about a month, about a month. Okay, what kind of feedback have you gotten from survivors?
Speaker 3:I've gotten wonderful feedback. I mean uplifting and people saying I read it in one sitting. It was a language I needed to hear. I don't feel crazy anymore. I don't feel shamed. This is my story. I know it sounds weird, but like, did you have a listening device in my house? The?
Speaker 3:answer to that is no, and so all that a person, one of the most fundamental human needs we have is to be seen, heard and attuned to. When we have those things, it's powerful and ideally we get it from people we love, but we don't always, and my book was my attempt to see, hear and attune to people who are going through this, to let them know. I promise you not only you're not alone, you're absolutely not crazy or weak or damaged or ridiculous or codependent because you've gone back. It's not that it is. You're going to something that you don't fully understand. People are saying I get it now and you've described, fill in the blank, ex-relationship in my life and that's the feedback I have been getting. I'm sure some people don't like it too. That's the nature of the beast, but mercifully my team protects me and they make sure I see the good ones. Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I mean I've read a lot of reviews and stuff about the book. I've read most of the book and all of it seems, you know to your point overwhelmingly like it really is becoming that kind of guidebook for survivorship, which people have been looking for. And it's fluid, right, because the situations of abusive relationships are fluid, they're constantly changing, all the time, even though the offender or the narcissist will not change.
Speaker 3:No, I mean, and pretty much like again, the behavioral repertoire of a narcissistic person in a given relationship does remain consistent, right. And so what I often say to folks, you know, because radical acceptance is the I often say to folks, you know, because radical acceptance is the key to healing, like seeing it clearly, understanding it's not really going to change. Radical acceptance doesn't mean you're signing off on it. Radical acceptance doesn't mean you're agreeing with it. It also doesn't mean it stops hurting. When someone says something hurtful, it hurts. That's good. That means your insides are working, your feelings are working.
Speaker 3:But I always tell folks you're getting radical acceptance right when you're no longer surprised by their behavior. You're like, of course, here we go, here we go, you know, and it's a rueful kind of like here we go, but it's no longer like I can't believe this is happening. And why that's so important is when you're surprised by something, it actually activates your sympathetic nervous system. It throws you off balance, it destabilizes you and that's not good. It's not good for you.
Speaker 3:But when it comes don't get me wrong we're going to end up replacing surprise with grief. But grief is a feeling you can work through to the other side, the sadness of gosh. You know it's a shame this couldn't be different, but now I see it can't be different. You know, it's like I wish the sun could rise in the West, because then it wouldn't wake me up in the morning. That's never going to happen, and so it's that. It's that piece of it, and that takes a while. And then after a while we say this is it, this is this person, and when I interact with that now I'm a more informed person when I interact with them.
Speaker 1:That's great advice as well. Where can people learn more about your work, follow your work, get a copy of the book I bought mine on. Actually, I didn't buy mine on Amazon, or did I? I think I was in your, like your, promotion that you had. Oh, okay, the early I think I bought on Amazon and got a workbook and all that stuff. So thank you for that.
Speaker 3:And that's some of that stuff still available. Like you know, at this point we still have some things we're making available. Each week the book's doing well. I made a promise to our audience you keep the book on the list, I'll keep giving you goodies. So it's like each week the book's on the list, I'll make more goodies, but that's okay because I made a promise.
Speaker 3:But you can get it anywhere you can buy books, so you can get it at a local, your local bookstore. You can get an Amazon, barnes and Noble, anywhere you get books. You can also ask your local library to get it in stock, and that would also benefit other people, and so anywhere books are sold. And you can also find more about me at drromanycom and at my website for people who want more information.
Speaker 3:We do have a monthly healing program that creates community workshops, question answer sessions. We have that that happens. You can sign up at any time. There's not like a beginning and end time to that, and we also have, uh, youtube videos that come out every single day and so you just have to subscribe to my youtube channel at dr romany and so there's that that comes up all the time and so, and then, if you go to my website, you'll see the other stuff that we have going on. I have other books, so so, yeah, and you can follow me on all social media, and social media is a place where we let people know what's coming up next and events and things like that.
Speaker 1:Well, it's very exciting. The work is amazing and so necessary, and I'm grateful to you for it, and I want to thank you for being here today and I look forward to seeing you at the Conference on Crimes Against Women in May in Dallas.
Speaker 3:Me too, I'm really looking forward to it. I learn so much every time I go. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. Registration for the 2024 Conference on Crimes Against Women is now available. The 2024 Conference will be held in Dallas, texas, at the Sheraton Dallas, may 20th through the 23rd. Visit our website at conferencecaworg to learn more and register today, and follow us on social media at nationalccaw for updates about the conference, featured events, presenters and more.