Podcast on Crimes Against Women
The Conference on Crimes Against Women (CCAW) is thrilled the announce the Podcast on Crimes Against Women (PCAW). Continuing with our fourth season, the PCAW releases new episodes every Monday. The PCAW serves as an extension of the information and topics presented at the annual Conference, providing in-depth dialogue, fresh perspectives, and relevant updates by experts in the fields of victim advocacy, criminal justice, medicine, and more. This podcast’s format hopes to create a space for topical conversations aimed to engage and educate community members on the issue of violence against women, how it impacts our daily lives, and how we can work together to create lasting cultural and systemic change.
Podcast on Crimes Against Women
Awareness, Training, and Honest Conversation: A First Responder's Guide to Understanding Autism Spectrum Disorder
In this episode, two parent-advocates - each with a child diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD) - share how ASD shapes communication, safety, and trust, and why lived experience should guide training for police, firefighters, EMTs, and courts. Together with Cheryl Stehle and Jamiel Owens, we explore misread behaviors, practical de-escalation, family preparation, and the need for policy that reduces harm.
When neurodivergent people interact with first responders a single misunderstanding can turn a routine interaction into a crisis. We sit down with two parents whose lived experience with ASD reshaped how they see safety, communication, and trust—and how first responders can, too. Their personal stories and experiences move from early fear about ASD and confusing diagnoses to purposeful advocacy that prioritizes dignity and practical skills.
We unpack what ASD really means in day-to-day life—why one person’s eye contact challenges or stimming are not defiance, and how processing time, clear language, or a written prompt can lower the temperature fast. Jamiel shares how fatherhood and his role at the Center for Autism Research inform an approach that treats difference as a lens, not a deficit. Cheryl explains how AUTT training equips police, firefighters, EMTs, and juvenile probation with field-ready habits: pause to observe, ask neutral questions about communication needs, and look for tools like blue envelopes, ID cards, or a support contact. The message is simple and actionable: just ask, then adjust.
We also talk about preparation within the family especially when domestic violence is present. An autism go-bag with headphones, comfort items, and a communication device can restore predictability during stressful moves or shelter entry. We discuss emergency preparedness practices for people living with ASD such as visiting police stations, seeing emergency response gear up close, and rehearsing traffic-stop steps that can prevent sensory shock and build confidence. Finally, we push for systems change: mandate recurring, lived-experience-led autism training across public safety platforms; create policy that normalizes optional license notations and standardized info kits; and fund community-curated resource hubs that actually meet families where they are.
If this conversation resonates, share it with a caregiver, a first responder, or a policymaker who can put it to work.
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics with multiple forms of violence and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
SPEAKER_02:In this country, 31 million crimes, 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes, there is a murder. Every five minutes, there is a rape, every two to five minutes, there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business. And I am proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
SPEAKER_01:Approximately one in 31 eight-year-olds in the United States were diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder in 2022, according to the CDC's latest ADDM Network report. This marks an increase in one in 36 reported in 2020 and 1 in 44 in 2018. Some sources estimate that about 1 in 45 in the United States are autistic. Rising prevalence nearly certainly reflects improved screening, broader diagnostic criteria, and greater awareness rather than solely an actual increase in ASD incidents. As it were, people with intellectual or developmental disabilities often benefit from specialized care and support tailored to their unique needs. This care can help them live fulfilling lives, improve their independence, and participate more fully in their communities, with the goal being to provide respect, dignity, and opportunities for growth while accommodating challenges they may face. To narrow the scope, it is widely believed that crimes against individuals with disabilities are widely underreported. As individuals with autism spectrum disorders are generally taught compliance from a very young age, have difficulty picking up on social cues, and may also have intellectual disabilities. They can be easy targets for criminals. Specifically speaking, when first responders such as police, firefighters, or paramedics encounter autistic children, there are important considerations that must be embraced to ensure safety, effective communication, and a positive outcome. Today's conversation will be with Jamil Owens and Cheryl Steele. Both have autistic children, and we will discuss the need for autistic related awareness, advocacy training, and reform. Jamil Owens is the CEO of Awesomeness, the Family Relations Coordinator for the Center for Autism Research at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, and has served as a law enforcement officer, a civil servant, and volunteer firefighter. As a father of a 16-year-old boy who is on the autism spectrum, Mr. Owens is truly an advocate for his son Shane and other autism parents. He has been through many challenges and triumphs in his life as a disabled individual himself, which has led him to give back to other men who may be experiencing the same issues within their own lives, but without someone to speak to about them. Cheryl Steele is the founder of Aug, A U T T, which stands for Autism Toolbox Training, a former teacher and passionate advocate who works to bring understanding about autism to people around her. Ms. Steele's involvement in bridging the gap between individuals with autism and the law enforcement and first responder communities stems from a desire to help others who may not have time, ability, or resources to speak out on their own behalf. She relies heavily on her relationships with other advocates as well as members of law enforcement community to share a message of hope, cooperation, and understanding. Thank you. It's good to be here. As our listeners heard in your background and bio, your worlds intersect in very meaningful ways. How did the two of you come together and meet?
SPEAKER_00:So, outside of my roles working at Children's Hospital in Philadelphia, and well before my role there, I started a successful platform called The Awesome Show. This was back in 2014, really to help autism fathers like myself kind of understand the complexities around fatherhood and what it means to be intentional in the life of their child and their family. That went on and still goes on today as a podcast and a successful platform. And that's how I came about with Cheryl's two sons, Zach and Josh, is because I was putting various posts out looking and searching for guests to be on the show. And Cheryl seen one of my posts and responded in a very charamistic way. And said, Hey, I have someone that should be on your show. And she introduced me to both of her sons. And I immediately thought that it was a good fit for the show. So interviewing them completely fell in love and felt the brotherhood between us as individuals. But then they introduced me to their mom, Cheryl. And everything that she was looking to do, and it really coincided with my personal goals too. And, you know, we kind of talked about it and chewed on it for a while until Cheryl called me and be like, hey, you know what? Enough is enough. We need to do something. And we kind of like stepped out on faith, and here we are today. Did I sum it up correctly? Cheryl, my perspective.
SPEAKER_03:He didn't call me that crazy mother. So No, I wasn't going to call you.
SPEAKER_00:Who was he going to call you that?
SPEAKER_03:You know, I saw Jamil's post and I was like, this is a guy that gets it. And I have two sons, as Jameel mentioned, and a daughter. She always gets left out of the conversation, but she's not part of this particular conversation. And my two sons had become TikTok famous for their platform where my younger son, who is neurotypical, would try to stump my older son, Zach, with questions about superheroes. And it was called Can You Stump My Brother? And within that, they developed a platform for sibling support of somebody with autism. And we got very fortunate that we were invited to speak with the governor of Pennsylvania at a roundtable, and it turned into a conversation about the 21 Plus community and what needs to be done. And that led to being asked to review a training on traffic safety for people with autism, which led me to reach out to Jamil again and say, hey, listen, we need to do something. There's a gap between law enforcement first responders and the autism community. Let's try to bridge it. And that's where we began. And I'm really glad that I nagged Jamil that day because it was the right choice.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. I love how you all came together and I love the work that you're doing. And I can't wait to learn more about it today. And as you mentioned, you are both the parents of autistic children. Can you share with us how you knew your children were autistic and maybe what challenges you faced early on that you face now that they are older and any triumphs associated with being a parent to a special needs child?
SPEAKER_03:I'll take this one first since my son is older. My son is now 26. And interestingly, when he was little, probably less than two, and we started our journey, he was not speaking at that time. I could see there were developmental issues, and we went to the developmental pediatricians, and he was not diagnosed with autism because at that stage it was a much narrower diagnosis, and they didn't really know as much about it 24, 25 years ago. So we got a diagnosis of pervasive developmental disability, not otherwise specified. So PDD NOS. It took numerous years to land on autism. And at that stage, the kind of the diagnosis didn't really matter because things weren't really in place in the same way as they are now. We've come a long way. But as I said, Zach is now 26. He is verbal, he can speak, he has some speech issues, but he's done really well with it. But definitely on the autism spectrum, we definitely deal with a lot of the communication and social development issues that are common amongst people with autism. He lives at home, he lives with us, he probably always will. That is definitely one of the issues that a lot of parents do face, especially as they get older, as I'm seeing with myself and my husband. But he's able to drive and he is able to do a lot of things. So for that, we've had a lot of successes as well. Jamil?
SPEAKER_00:So, Shane, my son, he's 17. He's about to graduate high school next year, actually. So we're in that sweet spot of manhood and adulthood and what that looks like. But remembering back to the first signs of recognizing in a man's eyes, it can look very much different because most of us are going by societal norms of having, you know, a normal child, an alpha male, perhaps, in some words, and seeing a child that's exhibiting characteristics and behaviors that you know are a little bit off, even if you never had children before, you have known from just even being remotely around children that those type of characteristics are something that you have never seen in other children. That was my experience. And seeing that scared me. So it wasn't a reaction of let's do something about it, like most autism moms or even some of the autism dads. But in my case, it was scary because it was okay, something's going on, but I'm afraid to even open that box, you know, to see what's going on. Until it became too rampant not to overlook these things. Shane was diagnosed at the age of three, and quite frankly, I speak about this all the time. Premonition in my mind was to leave because of the diagnosis, leave my family, his mother I was married to at that time, because I didn't have the right situation in life. I didn't have a child that was deemed normal. Now I have a special needs child. So that killed my pride, killed my ego, made me fearful when instead of getting that diagnosis, I should be rearing my head a little bit, leaning more into my family to understand at this time of need what my wife, my spouse needs, or most importantly, who is my son now? That I have this paperwork that says your son is completely different of everything that you thought your son was going to be. Now, here's what it looks like on a clinical standpoint. You have to rewrite the rest of the story because now you're going to have to learn and build that relationship. Shane was diagnosed with Asperger's, which is no longer separate from the autism spectrum. It's a part of the DSM qualifications. And, you know, he struggles with social interactions, just as many of autistic individuals, but he thrives in school in structured settings. So while he's doing his last year, he's now looking towards a trade school. And I'm not forcefully, but I'm encouraging him to get into that trade sooner than later. Find out what it is. Let's get you enrolled because the structure actually helps you. And that way it can structure him right into hopefully a career that could continue building on his structure while I work on the social cues with him and understanding some of the other adulting things of life.
SPEAKER_01:Well, these are two very amazing stories, very different stories, but amazing nonetheless. And I heard both of you say, I believe, the word spectrum, and many people have heard of the spectrum as it relates to the autism spectrum disorder, but may not fully understand what autism really means. Can you define for us what autism is and how it shows up in different people, in different circumstances, and in varying ways?
SPEAKER_03:So I read a really great quote that I thought really explained it. And it said, Autism influences how people experience and interact with the world. And I thought it's a really interesting way of looking at it. So every person experiences the world somewhat differently. But as a category, people with autism have a different way of experiencing the world. It plays out in a lot of ways in how they communicate, in how they use eye contact, in their body language behaviors. And it's difficult to say this is autism because it presents very differently in all people. And we use the word spectrum because there's a really wide range. Autism has actually been broken down into three categories levels one, two, and three. And as Jamil said, his son was diagnosed as having Asperger's. Asperger's has now been folded into level one. So people who are more able to fit into what is considered social norms, while it still might not be easy, they have an easier time. They might be able to be taught different communication strategies and be a part of the world with less difficulty. And then level two and then level three, which we often consider profound autism, which often has comorbidities with intellectual disabilities or other issues that can compound the problems. And there is a huge range. There's a huge range of skills, there's a huge range of behaviors, and it's really important to know that because you can't say, oh, I know what autism is. I met somebody with autism. It's not like that. Different people present differently, and you have to be willing to get to know an individual, get to understand an individual. Even between Jamil and myself, we have two children who both happen to fall into the category of level one autism, but they're wildly different. Jamil's son has skills that my son does not have, and vice versa. And how they approach the world is very different, and how we raise them is very different. But they're both autistic and they both fall under that diagnosis code.
SPEAKER_00:I'm glad, Cheryl, that you touched on the levels one, two, and three, because though we represent and we're speaking about our personal stories, we have individuals that represent level one. We want to be cognizant of those who have loved ones that are level two and level three, or respect the autonomy of autistics that may listen to this podcast who fall within those categories. That's very important. I often say that we as neurotypical people are the disabled ones, and those who are neurodiverse or those who have autism or any other of conditions under the neurodiversity tree are those who are normal. The reason why I say that is because individuals like my son Shane sees the world just for what it is. They thrive off experiences that heighten their education and understanding of love, of empathy, of compassion, of togetherness, of communication. I learned a lot in my lifetime from my son Shane. I had to reprogram how I actually view people, neurotypical or neurodiverse, but also to how I view certain situations in my life. And that is to learn from them, to digest, to sit in them, and actually teach others on how to navigate around those issues. That's the reason why me and Cheryl are here today. We all know, or if you do not know, it's a neurological condition. So it's not something you can catch. It's not something that mothers cause. We debunked that with the refrigerator mom theory way back when in the 60s. But what we know about autism today is that it's a difference, right? And while you see so many different ads from companies expressing to be different, do you, we don't shine a light on these individuals because some feel they take do you too far. They are authentic in who they are. Yes, they have differences, but they embrace them and they love them and they don't care who's around them, they welcome everybody to indulge in those differences. So I really want people to understand that it's just another way of looking at life. Just like we turn to podcasters and inspirational speakers, learn to love an autistic individual, and you will probably learn more out of that one individual about this journey we call life than what you would in anybody else who was neurotypical.
SPEAKER_01:So, Jamil, I just want to go back to something you said at the beginning of the show and how when you first heard your son's diagnosis, you wanted to run away. You wanted to be out of the situation because it was not what you had anticipated your son or your life to look like. And you obviously have done a complete 180 on this, right? You are so immersed in this topic. How did that happen for you?
SPEAKER_00:Mine was a little bit more of a spiritual level, connecting with change. So I'll give you a little background about my story. I've been on my own since I was 16. I didn't really know my dad until later on in my late 20s. He's in my life now, been fully focused and immersed. And my mom suffered from schizophrenia and depression. She actually was homeless. She kicked me out at 16, and then she just started being on the streets because of her psychosis. So I had to learn how to live off of the streets. This was well before Shane was in a picture. Shane came into the picture while I was trying to numb the pain of life with more life, if that makes sense. But the problem was I was always getting in a rat race. I will always end up alone, financially broke, about to be homeless myself, which I was in certain situations. It was not until I fell to my knees and was crying and weeping and saying, I can't do this anymore, God. I need help. And this is a true story. My son Shane was in his room, which was literally a hundred feet away from me, and he couldn't have heard because he had cartoons on. And he came running out and he hugged me. And what I realized in that moment was that God was gracious enough to give me a piece of him in an aesthetic form, actual tangible form that I can hold. So it was my best interest to learn from Shane. So I started to really unpack all of the callousness that went to my heart, which means reinventing myself, which means sitting down and saying, okay, I've been doing fatherhood wrong. I've been doing life wrong. Let me learn through my son. So Shane began to teach me how to love people for who they are, regardless of how they treat you, how to properly interact with those who don't know exactly who you are or how you present and want to learn more. So Shane, he broke down a lot of these walls and he taught me, but only because I asked for it. I asked for it from my belief in my creator. And in my heart, truly 100%, he blessed me with a tangible version of that, and that is through my son Shane.
SPEAKER_01:That's an amazing journey, and we are so fortunate that Shane had that impact on you, and so fortunate for Shane, really, and because he has really allowed you to do some of this work. Now, parenting an autistic child may look different, and in doing so and working with professionals who work in an autistic environment, what are some of the fears that parents have about their children getting diagnosed and what stigmas exist?
SPEAKER_03:First of all, I want to say, do you see why I think I have the perfect partner in this?
SPEAKER_01:I really do. I see it. It's loud and clear.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, man. It came through for the first time I saw his post. So it just makes me tear up every time I hear his story. So I think lack of understanding is the first thing that we say parents face. It's fear. There's a ton of fear out there. There's a lot of people who are very judgmental. There are a lot of people who think that they have the answer. They can fix your child, they can fix your parenting. So it becomes very isolating because you don't want to be told all the time all the things you're doing wrong. Because the bottom line is you're probably not doing anything wrong. You're doing the best you can. And there's a lot of people out there who are very quick to say, oh, well, what you're doing is wrong. You made this happen. It's how you're raising your child, it's what you're doing with your child. That's what they're faced with. So it causes people to retreat and just try to survive. Even amongst professionals, I think we're beginning to see the signs of people learning the individual characteristics of people with autism, not trying to fit them into a box. But there still is a lot of that. If your child is autistic, do A, B, and C. If your child is autistic, this is the device, this is the method, this is the behavior program. And that just doesn't work for everyone. It may work for some, but not for all. And we really have to be very open to the fact that these kids are individuals. When Zach was younger, I found a friend whose son also had autism. The boys were very similar and also very different. And we started meeting once a week while the boys were in school for what we called therapy. We met at Panera, we had a cup of coffee, it was therapy because she was the only person that I could be 100% honest with. And that included members of my family. But with her, we could actually say, This is what I heard, this is what's upsetting me, this is what happened. And hey, guess what? This happened and it was great. And you can't always get that understanding. And to Jameel says, you know, talk to people, meet someone who's has autism, get to know them. It's a gift. Well, you need to be able to celebrate with people who understand. And for people who don't understand, listen, try to celebrate with a parent because it's hard. It's a very, very hard journey. And we need people not to judge, not to always offer a solution. Because there isn't a solution, and we don't need a solution. We're not looking to fix our kids. And that goes for all our kids. My two neurotypical kids have given me as much of a challenge as my son Zach, and I wouldn't change any of them.
SPEAKER_00:You know what, Cheryl, to hear that, I think people take that too lightly. Like we don't need to fix our children. So, with respect to opinions, because a lot of people have developed pain from this. And in my personal opinion, only minds, Jamil Owens, not a representative of CHOP, but Jamil Owens, a father, a parent, I think it's because they haven't really relinquished their hold on life, meaning their control of what they want their life to be like. They haven't just let it go and say, okay, I'm looking at this from the wrong lens.
SPEAKER_03:I just wanted to add that I want to really respect the fact that there are people who have a much harder situation when it comes to the levels of autism. When you're taking care of somebody who is profoundly autistic, it is a very different situation from somebody who is level one. And we respect that and we understand that. And for those parents out there and caregivers, please understand that we know that it is a difficult path. We get it. Our real thing is that people looking in from the outside don't judge so quickly. Support, listen, hear. Don't tell a person how to fix the situation. Understand that it is every person is facing what their reality is. And we have to respect their reality and help them in their reality, not to try to change it or tell them how to change it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you for adding that. I think that's a very important idea for us to keep in mind. Jameel, it sounds like your experience as a parent to an autistic child has carved the path to where you are now the CEO of Awesomeness and the coordinator at the Center for Autism Research. Can you tell us about the work you do at these two entities and how it is designed to make a positive and significant impact in the autistic space?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I'll start real quick just with the family relations coordinator at the Center for Autism Research at CHOP. My position was never there before. I was given the opportunity to present while I was working at CHOP in security to their LEN program, which is Leadership, Education, and Neurodiversity. It's a national cohort that's funded by the government. I was the first father to actually present in their entire cohort. So the entire program that has been well established years before, I was the first father that was offered because of all the work I was doing since 2014. After that presentation, one of the directors came up to me and she said, I think we have a position for you if you're interested. And I said, Sure. So I met with all of the infrastructure positions within the center where I work at, my co-workers, and there was one issue: my education. So my education background, I didn't have a degree in anything. And I remember I was talking on a phone because my wife now was actually, she was giving birth to our now three-year-old son. And I was in the hospital talking to them, and I was like, listen, I don't have the degree, but I can do the job. And they said, okay, well, let us talk. We'll get back to you in two weeks. And they got back to me in two weeks and they took away that education. And I interviewed some more and I came into that position swinging, knowing that everything that I've established for myself, now I get to do what I always wanted to do, and that was to give to everybody else. So that's that portion, that's where I'm at currently right now.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, yeah, you're obviously a subject matter expert.
SPEAKER_00:I wouldn't say expert, but you know, you're a lot closer than I am.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, you and Cheryl both are subject matter experts through lived experience. And that is something that we focus on a lot at Genesis Women's Shelter and Support, which is the founder of the conference, is that survivors are the experts, right? So survivors of gender-based violence, domestic violence are the experts in what that experience is like. As parents of children who have autism, in a way, you are a lived experience expert because you are coming up around it alongside, you're learning with them what this life is going to be like.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, in that form, yes, we definitely are. And me and Cheryl, we encourage parents and communities in which we speak to, and even autistic individuals, self-advocates, that they are the expert. They have a voice and to actually use it. And that point, yes, definitely 100%. I've been blessed to be able to be that. I guess once again, relying on imperfect statistics and things in society. I don't have a PhD or anything to back my name, but we don't need that. You know, we don't need that exactly. Awesomeness Incorporated is an online platform that is still being developed. Shout out to Cheryl Son Josh, who is a website direct program developer with his own company to help me form this website, but it's a one-stop shop for anyone within the entire nation to actually come on to get resources in their specific neighborhood. What makes this website a little bit different is that it really relies on the community to vet out resources for other moms, other awesome dads, other awesome families, in order for them to get the services in which they're looking for. So we're still developing. It is together, it is up. You can log on right now and see some of the information. We also have some podcasts from local moms from all around the Philadelphia tri state area, dads as well, too, who are just making a difference one voice at a time. So that's really what the platform is going to shoot off a little bit more this year as I'm rearranging my work schedule. But yeah, that's enough about me.
SPEAKER_01:It's fascinating and amazing, and it sounds like somehow you found your purpose in life very serendipitously. Now, Cheryl, like Jameel, it sounds like your personal experiences have motivated you to start OT, A-U-T-T, as it's spelled. What is OT about and who is the training geared towards? What does the training entail? Just tell us so much more.
SPEAKER_03:So, as I said earlier, when I was approached to review the training program for traffic stops for law enforcement officers, when they were stopping somebody with autism, I saw there was a real need for more education. It was a program that was developed with the best of intentions, but by people who did not know what autism really was. And fortunately, when I approached Jamil and we started working on the program, we were able to take our program to the municipal police for Pennsylvania and make it an official program for them to have for their continuing education. And at the same time, it gave us the platform to go and teach law enforcement officers about autism. And we weren't teaching statistics and medical diagnoses. We were teaching what it was to be dealing with an individual who has autism, to be interacting with an individual. What were the main characteristics? Body language, eye contact, communication. And we tried to make it really attainable, real life-based, stories that were relevant, give scenarios that were relevant, talk, communication, conversation with law enforcement officers. And that then propelled us forward to develop a similar training for firefighters and for EMT and for juvenile probation officers. And then we started training the lawyers at the Attorney General's office. So we've been very fortunate that we've been able to approach people in a lot of different parts of the first responder community. And then what we've done is also take that information back to the community. So instead of saying, hey, this is all on the police, this is all on the firefighters, this is all their responsibility, we go to the community and we say, hey, this is your responsibility too. If we're going to bridge this gap, we need both sides coming together. We need the community. Go meet your law enforcement officers. Go see what a firefighter is going to be wearing when they come into your house. If they have to come into your house. Have that ready. So we can go back to the community and say, hey, listen, we're teaching the law enforcement officers, and we're also teaching you. And it takes responsibility on both sides to come together to make these interactions more likely to succeed. And we always say to them, you don't want to be on the news. That's our goal. We want to stop anything from going wrong before it gets to the news. And we can do that if we educate each other, if we talk to each other, if we communicate with each other, and most of all, if we work with each other. So Ought is really focused on providing that training. And then we're also trying to work with legislation to share what is out there, what is being done. Right now, obviously, because we're in Pennsylvania, we're dealing mostly with Pennsylvania, but we're hoping to see some legislation that could become national. And while we're working in Pennsylvania, we're using examples of bills and laws and programs that have been used in other states and successfully used. And we're trying to get that attention to make sure that we have the best opportunities out there to improve those relationships.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you for that. And along those lines, what are some autistic-related behaviors that often go unrecognized or misinterpreted? And how do autistic children typically embrace the law enforcement concept?
SPEAKER_03:An example that I didn't learn for a long time. I talk about eye contact. Difficulty with eye contact is very common amongst people with autism. And Zach is 26 now. For the first 20 years of his life, I would say to him, Zach, look me in the eye. I'm talking to you. You're talking to me. Look me in the eye. It took me a long time to really understand that eye contact was incredibly difficult for him, and it is for many people with autism. So when we look at police training, police officers are very often taught if somebody doesn't look you in the eye, there's a reason. They're being deviant, perhaps they're on drugs, they might be drunk. They don't want to have this conversation with you. So if police officers are taught that, and people with autism have difficulty making eye contact, you can already see a huge way where these interactions can go badly. So that was one area that I learned that we really focus on in training. There's a lot of body language issues that you can see causing problems. Stimming is very common amongst people with autism. Stimming is moving your body. It could be blinking, it could be using your hand to do something, it can be headbanging, and it can be moving. It can play out in a whole range of ways. Police officers, obviously, when they're questioning you, want you to stand still. If you start moving erratically, that could cause a problem. So we're teaching them about that. Communication is a huge one. When somebody hears a question and can't answer it or answers something different from what you ask them, that can be misinterpreted really easily. But again, communication issues are very common amongst people with autism. So we are trying to address all of those issues so that a law enforcement officer, a first responder, when they see some of those more obvious behaviors, they can all of a sudden say, Oh, wait a second. Maybe I'm dealing with autism here, not deviant behavior, not avoidance.
SPEAKER_01:What are some of the ways that a law enforcement officer or other professional can determine if they are in fact speaking with someone who may have autism or something that isn't deviant, being deviant behavior or dangerous behavior?
SPEAKER_00:It's simple. Just ask. So I think we're in some aspect of law enforcement and communication, we're overthinking it. We're making it too hard. You know, officer approaches a vehicle, how you doing, sir or ma'am? Um officer's, you know, Owens, do you know why I'm stopping you? As easy as it is to ask, do you know what I'm stopping you? And can I see license registration and proof and insurance? Ask it. Is there anybody in a car or do you yourself have any neurological conditions I need to be aware of? Are you neurodiverse by any chances? No? Okay, great. You just check the box. I think people associate autism and the conversations around it to be so taboo, so tabooed to the point where we can advertise and talk about sex openly, right? But we can't talk about neurodiversity because that implies that someone is too different or ew, I don't want to associate with that person. So I think the best answer is just ask. As officers are out in the field where the real training is. I learned this in my experience. Uh, get into a habit to ask these questions when approaching a vehicle, or if it's not a felony stop, the vehicle felony stop, you asking an individual out in the street. Is there anything you would like to tell me? Any conditions I need to be aware of? Officers are doing this during pack downs. Do you have any weapons on you? Is there anything else I need to know before I continue to search you? So put that in your rotation of questions, and I think that alleviates a lot of misconceptions and a lot of miscommunication.
SPEAKER_03:And on the flip side, as a person, if you're being stopped, we've got to be comfortable saying, I have autism. As we work to bridge this gap between law enforcement, to build the trust between the two communities, and that's really what we need to do, because there is mistrust. So as we work so hard to build the trust between the two communities, we have to have people with autism meeting halfway and being okay saying, I have autism, I have trouble looking you in the eye, or I need to move around. I can't sit still, I'm going to stem. And we're trying, there are communication devices, there are things like blue envelopes, information sheets, emergency contact information. Some states have notations on the licenses that allow that kind of communication to happen more easily. But both sides have to be willing to talk and to communicate and to share information. That's what's going to help in the long run. We have to take away the stigma and the fear, and that's a process. I'm not saying that's easy, but we have to work towards making it where I can say, I have autism, and the police officer recognizes and respects that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I think that's a process too. It's a huge process. Getting to the point of feeling like you wouldn't be targeted for that. We live in a somewhat unstable environment right now.
SPEAKER_03:We're not there yet. No.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I appreciate you bringing that up and acknowledging it that it's going to take more time. And it's going to take all of us to kind of get there. Now, I'd like to understand a little bit more about the behaviors that could go unrecognized or misinterpreted by law enforcement, as well as how open are law enforcement and other professionals to learning about this type of response and also practicing what they learn in training?
SPEAKER_03:We have really met so many law enforcement officers and first responders who want to know. First of all, many of them will say to us, oh yes, my nephew, my best friend's son, my, you know, they know someone. We're one in 31 now. The numbers of people with autism continue to grow. A lot of people now know what autism is in general. Not specifically, they may not have ever met someone, but the words are out there. The term is out there. So there's a base awareness. And most of the law enforcement officers we meet, they want to know. They don't want to be on the news. They don't want to hurt someone, but they don't know what they don't know. And just like I didn't understand the eye contact, and I have a child with autism, how would they know? So we have found that they are very open to learning and to trying to do better and to be more open to this learning. So from that aspect, it's been very positive. Now, have I met officers in all 50 states? I haven't. But I do want to believe that when you approach someone and you say to them, let's work together, and you don't say to them, you're wrong, you're messing up, you don't get it, you're not going to alienate them. If we can work together and say, hey, this is just to help you. It's to help our community and it's to help your community, and it's to bring us both together as one community, you're going to have a positive reaction most of the time. Now, are there going to be exceptions? Probably. There's exceptions to every rule. But we have generally found that people are very much looking to do the right thing.
SPEAKER_00:I think we definitely want to take a neutral response to kind of responding to some of the characteristics because we want to respect clinicians, right? Doctors who study this, that's their field. We're not that, but we do have the lived experience. So I'll speak on some of the characteristics that I've experienced with Shane, which was hand flapping, the absence of eye contact, knowing when his name is called. That was another issue that Shane actually had when I would call his name. He wouldn't respond to my calls. Flapping of the hands, walking on tippy toes, staring is another part of stemming as well. More common in some of the young adults and adults who are autistic currently, right now, today. But also, I want to say a maternal instinct is the best identifier among anything. What I mean by that is that you know there's something going on with their child, or you pick up on certain things. It may be a sniffle one day from your child, they may be extra clingy to you, and you know that, hey, my child is about to get sick. I know it's coming. I would encourage parents to explore what they are actually feeling with their pediatrician, right? You should be able to be open with your pediatrician and to really address your concerns without sounding like a crazy mad woman. See, Cheryl, I did say it. But they should respect.
SPEAKER_03:Don't just call me a crazy mad woman.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, guys, that's a different episode. Okay, we can't go there today.
SPEAKER_00:Or really, I think if you know there's something going on with your child, I think you should really address that with your pediatrician. If it is an older child, I think you should address it with their doctor. If it is a young adult going into that transitional stage, I think you should have conversations with your child to say, hey, I noticed a couple things you're doing. Are you okay? Is there anything else maybe you're experiencing that you don't know what's going on? Maybe I could talk to you about or find out more information. I think that's the best thing. We pay too much attention to milestones. And milestones don't work for both neurotypical and neurodiverse children. It's a great structure. It's great to sit there and be like, okay, they should be doing this and doing this. But I know people, kids who had a girl who started walking, you know, two months in versus someone that's around age two. So it can really vary for everybody. So that's really my suggestion.
SPEAKER_01:Those points are very well taken. Let's just touch back on the interactions with law enforcement and others again. I want to understand what law enforcement or other professionals versus responders could do to de-escalate situations that spin out of control.
SPEAKER_03:It's taking a minute to analyze an individual. Sometimes just stepping back and looking at the situation and thinking, okay, what if my training would explain some of these behaviors that I'm seeing? That can diffuse a situation and just give everybody a minute to breathe and say, oh, wait a second. So they're not looking me in the eye, or they keep flapping their hands. Wait, I've heard that. I know what that is. That is autism, or they're staring at me. Wait a second, I heard maybe there's another way to communicate. Maybe I need to pull out my phone and type what I'm asking. Maybe I need to ask them, do you have something written down that you'll be able to use to show me what is going on? Is there another communication method? Or is there somebody I can talk to? An emergency contact? Or is if a law enforcement officer sees there's some other person at the scene, hey, can you tell me what's going on? Can you explain the situation? If you can just take those few seconds and think about what else the situation could possibly be, and not jump to the worst possible assumption. They're not trying to run away from me. They just keep moving around. Why is that? And that would be our first thing. Stop and think. Now, of course, we recognize that law enforcement has to make sure that they're safe, the situation is safe, the person is safe, and they've got to be making a ton of decisions very quickly. And we get that and we respect that. So sometimes they're not able to take that time, but very often they can. They can step back, they can look at it for a second, they can get information from the person who sent them to the scene. Get all that communication information before you get there. So that's what we recommend. Get as much information as you can and really analyze the scene from the individual perspective.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's excellent advice, and I appreciate all of that feedback. I want to touch on before I let you go, talking about this subject within the context of domestic violence. What would be some of the obstacles for mothers or families or what vulnerabilities exist when there's a child with autism in a family that's also experiencing domestic violence? What advice would you have for mothers to make the right decisions both for their family and for their child?
SPEAKER_03:One of the things that is really difficult for most people with autism is unpredictability. And these situations they become very unpredictable if you have to get out of a place very quickly, if you're going somewhere that the child is not familiar with, there can be a lot of unpredictability. So you can anticipate that's going to be very difficult on somebody with autism. So again, what we would stress is for open conversation, you've got to, when you arrive somewhere, let's say you have a child who has autism, and now you're bringing them into a very unpredictable situation. Be open, explain to that provider, to the place you're going, hey, my child has autism. He or she may need a quiet place. Is there a room we can go to if they start to have a sensory overload? One of the things we recommend all the time for all parents of individuals with autism is pack a bag with the things that are familiar to your child, whether it's a lovey, a toy they really rely on, a blanket they rely on, a certain food. Have that. So if you have to move quickly, you can grab that bag and it's got those items with you a set of headphones, a communication device, and give them that comfort in an unpredictable space. At least they have that there for them. And it can be very basic things, some fidget spinners, something that makes them comfortable, but also explain the situation in your safe place wherever you get to, so that the people around you can support you. Don't hide it. Because you are going to need support. And if you're going into a shelter or into some kind of protective home, that's what they're there to do. They're there to support you. Take that support. Don't hide the autism. It's nothing to be ashamed of. Let them support you.
SPEAKER_01:Those are really great points for reflection and a good call to action for everybody, really. Before I let you go, there's a lot of research out there that informs us of the lack of awareness, training, funding, and resources surrounding intellectual or developmental disabilities. What would each of you say needs to be done on a legislative level regarding autism?
SPEAKER_03:I would love to see mandated training. It needs to be updated constantly. As we know, it needs to be repeated, it needs to be updated, it needs to be shared, it needs to be taught by people who understand it. You can't just put anyone in front of a room reading a document. It needs to be taught by people who can have a conversation about what really it is to be living with autism. There needs to be more funding. There needs to be more support. We need to change the tone of the conversation. We need to bridge gaps. There's too much judgment out there. We need to listen to each other. That's with everything, you know, throughout this country. We need to listen and be able to talk to each other. But with autism, let's be honest, let's be open, let's support, and let's stop judging.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying for this reason and so many others. And the journey with autism spectrum disorder is so new. I mean, to your point back 24 years ago, when your son was not even actually diagnosed with autism at that time, and to now, and I mean, even the 10 years in between your son's lack of diagnosis and Jamil's son's actual diagnosis, which they occurred just about 10 years apart, if I remember the ages correctly, there was a leap. And it took complete Yeah, it took time. And I think this is again, it's still such a new journey for all of us to really understand what it means to be autistic and live as a person with autism, that we need more time, we need a lot more resources, and we definitely need some legislation. Jamil, you get the last word.
SPEAKER_00:The reason why me and Cheryl are doing these trainings because we're bridging that gap on law enforcement first responder side, but we're also having parents step up and being like, hey, if they can be advocates like this and do this amazing stuff, I can too. And now we're building our networks of villages and advocates to help support this entire population.
SPEAKER_03:And their caregivers. We don't want to forget about the parents.
SPEAKER_01:I really enjoyed learning from both of you. Thank you so much for being here and for the work that you do.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
SPEAKER_01:Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. The 21st Annual Conference on Crimes Against Women will be held May 18th through the 21st, 2026, in Dallas, Texas. Learn more at conferencecaw.org and be the first to know about all conference details, as well as the latest on the Institute for Coordinated Community Response, Annual Conference Summit, Beyond the Bounds, and the National Training Center on Crimes Against Women. When you follow us on social media at NationalCCAW,