Podcast on Crimes Against Women
The Conference on Crimes Against Women (CCAW) is thrilled the announce the Podcast on Crimes Against Women (PCAW). Continuing with our fourth season, the PCAW releases new episodes every Monday. The PCAW serves as an extension of the information and topics presented at the annual Conference, providing in-depth dialogue, fresh perspectives, and relevant updates by experts in the fields of victim advocacy, criminal justice, medicine, and more. This podcast’s format hopes to create a space for topical conversations aimed to engage and educate community members on the issue of violence against women, how it impacts our daily lives, and how we can work together to create lasting cultural and systemic change.
Podcast on Crimes Against Women
Understanding and Preventing Predatory Behavior: What we learned from the 2022 University of Idaho Murders
In this episode, we confront common misconceptions about predator behaviors with insight from retired deputy sheriff Joy Farrow and survivor-advocate Laura Frombach. Together, they reveal how predatory tactics unfold through subtle tests, familiar social scripts, and systemic blind spots—and discuss how to interrupt these patterns before they escalate into crisis.
We start by redefining safety, looking at it through the lens of prevention. Drawing on years of frontline experience, Joy Farrow describes a shift: where once the evidence of harm was visible bruises, now it is visible fear. She explains how coercive control operates—isolating, restricting, and terrorizing without leaving physical marks. Laura Frombach adds a personal perspective, describing the lived experience of “mind colonization,” in which choices gradually shrink and even simple decisions begin to feel manipulated.
Both Farrow and Frombach emphasize the importance of pattern recognition. They teach us to identify predatory behaviors: microtests of boundaries, subtle nudges for compliance, violations of personal space, and how a moment’s hesitation can give predators the time they need to act.
Using the 2022 University of Idaho murders as a backdrop, we analyze how planning, surveillance, and a sense of entitlement often contradict the “he snapped” narrative. The case against Bryan Kohberger, a convicted murderer, demonstrates a crucial distinction: progress, such as sobriety or earning a new degree, does not equate to genuine change in mindset or safety.
We then shift the focus to solutions. These include implementing practical home security layers, maintaining stricter control over access and location sharing, and using everyday tools such as pepper spray and personal alarms. Farrow and Frombach also advocate for a cultural shift—honoring intuition and acting on early warning signs, rather than waiting for a crisis to make headlines. Institutions are also encouraged to strengthen their early warning systems and to respond to the first red flag.
If you have ever sensed that something was wrong and hesitated to act, this conversation provides language, tools, and actionable next steps. We encourage you to subscribe for ongoing information, share this episode with someone who could benefit, and leave a review detailing the safety habits you are adopting. Your shared story could help someone else trust their instincts in the future.
The subject matter of this podcast will address difficult topics, multiple forms of violence, and identity-based discrimination and harassment. We acknowledge that this content may be difficult and have listed specific content warnings in each episode description to help create a positive, safe experience for all listeners.
SPEAKER_00:In this country, 31 million crimes. 31 million crimes are reported every year. That is one every second. Out of that, every 24 minutes, there is a murder. Every five minutes, there is a rape. Every two to five minutes, there is a sexual assault. Every nine seconds in this country, a woman is assaulted by someone who told her that he loved her, by someone who told her it was her fault, by someone who tries to tell the rest of us it's none of our business. And I'm proud to stand here today with each of you to call that perpetrator a liar.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to the podcast on crimes against women. I'm Maria McMullen. Today's conversation addresses critical questions about what it truly means to feel and be safe in a world where predatory behavior often goes unnoticed until it's too late. For instance, what do predators test first, the boundaries women set, or the attention society gives to their safety? Often by the time harm or danger is visible, the real story has already begun, unfolding through subtle calculated moves that challenge a woman's limits and society's vigilance. Tragically, these early warning signs are often ignored, allowing gender-based violence to escalate from overlooked patterns to devastating outcomes. In this episode, Joy Farrow, a seasoned law enforcement professional, and Laura Frombach, a resilient advocate and survivor, lead us through the nuanced landscape of predatory offending, revealing how these behaviors are deeply intertwined within the broader crisis of gender-based violence and its alarming proximity to femicide. Together, they shine a light on the differences between predators known to their victims and those who are strangers, expose the signals that betray malicious intent, and dissect the calculated objectives behind predator tactics. Using the story of the 2022 University of Idaho murder victims as a backdrop will confront tough questions. Why do predatory behaviors often slip beneath the radar? What keeps women's calls for help from being heard and acted upon? How do these insidious patterns escape detection, leaving warnings unheeded and interventions delayed? Through this compelling dialogue, our guests underscore a crucial truth. Predatory behavior is not a rare anomaly. It is a persistent threat in the fabric of harm. Recognizing and responding to these patterns early is not just important, it may be life-saving. Joy Farrow is a retired deputy sheriff and co-founder of Street Smart Safety for Women, a global initiative redefining personal safety and exposing the hidden dynamics of coercive control. With decades on the front lines of law enforcement, she responded to thousands of domestic violence and sexual assault calls, witnessing firsthand the patterns of coercion and control that precede violence. Today, Joy channels that experience into practical strategies that help women of all ages recognize red flags and trust their instincts. Her direct, relatable approach bridges the gap between what law enforcement knows and what women need to know to stay strong, smart, and safe. Lara Frombach is co-founder of Street Smart Safety for Women, a survivor of generational abuse and an expert in post-traumatic growth. Lara brings both lived experience and deep research insight into her work. Partnering with Irish researcher Don Hennessy, whose landmark interviews with both victims and perpetrators reframed our understanding of mind colonization and sexual brainwashing. Lara's work sheds light on the intentional and strategic dynamics of intimate partner abuse. She challenges outdated narratives, reframes intuition as a safety tool, and helps survivors move from fear to trusting themselves. Joy and Lara, welcome back to the show. It's great to be with you. So you both were my guests on Genesis the podcast earlier this year in 2025. And I'm glad to see you here on the podcast on crimes against women. You're also speakers at the conference on crimes against women this past year in 2025, and now you've made it to the podcast on crimes against women. So we're here today to talk about predators and predatory behavior and keeping oneself safe. Let's begin with the work that you do specifically because you both have an organization called Street Smart Safety. Tell us why this organization was established, your mission, and the work that you do.
SPEAKER_01:Street Smart Safety was established because we kept hearing the same story from women, that they didn't know how to recognize danger until it was too late. So we wanted to we recognized that there was a gap between what law enforcement knows, what predators know, and what women are taught. And our mission is to provide education that closes that gap. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02:And for decades I responded to calls where women had done everything right, but the systems around her had failed her. So Street Smart Safety focuses on teaching women how predatory behavior works. So they can see the red flags early and trust their instincts. And we teach pattern recognition and confidence.
SPEAKER_03:Pattern recognition, I'd love to learn more about that. Now, because it appears that many people, women in particular, have misunderstandings about terms like safety, self-defense, and survival. Help us understand the myths and misconceptions related to these concepts and why they increase danger risks for women.
SPEAKER_02:Well, a lot of women think safety means I can defend myself if something happens. But that's survival, not safety. And that myth increases your danger. Safety is everything that happens before the moment of danger.
SPEAKER_03:So safety is prevention. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. And what's pattern recognition?
SPEAKER_02:It would be what are you noticing when you're out and about? What is it that is alerting your intuition?
SPEAKER_01:One of the things that we teach is pattern recognition because we have noticed, and Joy and I both have backgrounds in violence. I am a survivor of violence, and Joy, of course, is a law enforcement, retired law enforcement deputy. And what we noticed is that predatory behavior reflects patterns. There's profiling, there's the approach, there is the setup, if you will, where they test boundaries. And it doesn't matter whether it's a stranger or an intimate partner. It's recognizing those patterns. And we have found that once women recognize those patterns and they are not taken by surprise, that they can defend themselves before it ever gets to the point of self-defense in a physical sense.
SPEAKER_03:That's a great point. And we're going to discuss patterns of predators in a bit of detail later on in this conversation. But just keeping on this thread at the moment, because there are existing misconceptions by offenders or individuals who are unaware and unknowledgeable about the dynamics of domestic violence and predator tactics and may believe that women are at fault for their own victimization. How are street smart and safety strategies taught and incorporated into daily life without victim blaming?
SPEAKER_02:First off, by putting the responsibility where it belongs on the offender. Because we don't ask why didn't she stop him? We ask how did he set this up? So we teach women safety strategies and we frame it like this. Predators create conditions for harm. And we teach women to read these conditions so that they can disrupt the predator setup.
SPEAKER_03:Now, Joey, just keeping on this idea that you were in law enforcement for nearly 30 years, and I'm sure you experienced a time when domestic violence was only truly acknowledged when there were visible physical injuries or death as a result of a domestic violence act. Terms and concepts have evolved over time, and now it's widely accepted that most domestic violence or abuse is actually carried out through coercive control, which speaks to the patterns that we talked about a few minutes ago. So, as a law enforcement officer, were there any defining moments in your career when you started to notice a shift in domestic violence and sexual assault offending? And what signs of offending behavior stood out to you?
SPEAKER_02:I started seeing the shift years before even society had a language for it. It was cases with no visible injuries, but there was definitely visible fear. And I can see that when I approached the women, they were quote not allowed to talk, and I can see that they had destroyed phones and just the way they looked. They're isolated from their family and their friends. I found out that their finances were being controlled. But what stood out was men didn't need to hit to terrify.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, absolutely. And now, Lara, you're gonna help put this into some context for us, right? Because as a domestic violence survivor and now a trauma advocate for survivors, in your own personal story, would you be open to share with us how coercive control showed up in your abusive relationship?
SPEAKER_01:Coercive control showed up insidiously, and it always does because it's always prefaced by charm, it's always prefaced by attraction. And so you don't really see it creeping up until really it's too late. And the way it showed up for me was that slow and really insidious creeping. And by the time I realized what was going on, I had lost myself. I'd been brought up actually with domestic violence, but nonetheless, I was brought up to be nice, to be accommodating, to be polite, and we want to take care of people. And for me, when I was in that relationship less than a year, I was a shadow of myself. And I was that person that Joy just talked about, constantly feeling threatened, I constantly was on edge, I was constantly hyper-vigilant because I was always looking for approval. Now, I'm not that kind of person to always look for approval. I'm, as I said, a polite person, but by the time I was in that relationship, I was always looking to see, is everything okay? Is everything okay? And if everything isn't okay, more to the point, what were going to be the consequences for me if they were not okay? And people told me later, after I was out of that relationship, that they could gradually see how I really became smaller and really a shadow of myself. And as I grew smaller, I also grew isolated because none of my friends were ever good enough. Nothing was good enough. And no matter which way I turned, the criticism was there. And so I was constantly trying to avoid that criticism and the aftermath of that criticism to the point where I didn't even know who I was anymore.
SPEAKER_03:That's incredible. Thank you for sharing that with us. Can you tell us a little bit about the concept of mind colonization?
SPEAKER_01:To me, mind colonization is exactly what it sounds like. It's being taken over mentally, physically, and emotionally by somebody else. It's like being invaded by a virus. You know that you don't feel well, but you don't know why. And it's almost as though somebody else is living in your head. And in actuality, they are, because as I mentioned before, you're always wondering what they're thinking. They're always you're always wondering what they are going to think about what you're doing. The criticism is always there. The mind colonization is actually like a death by a thousand cuts because of the criticism. And because, let's even take an example like going to the grocery store. Should I buy apples or should I buy oranges? You don't even wonder, do I like apples or oranges anymore? It's whether he likes apples or oranges or whether the other person likes apples or oranges. And so you would think to yourself, well, that's an easy decision. You just get apples and oranges. But when you get home, if you haven't made the direct, the correct decision, and it doesn't matter what that your choice was, it's going to be wrong. If you got apples and oranges, then it was too expensive. So you're always wondering what's going to happen through the eyes of that other person. And it's very confusing, it's very depressing, and it really gives you a feeling of hopelessness that you're almost overwhelmed with this darkness and you don't know how to get out of it. You don't know what you want, but what you do not want is you do not want to feel like that anymore. And really, unless somebody has been in that situation, it's really hard to describe that that really is a reality.
SPEAKER_03:For many people, it can be difficult for them to understand even allowing themselves, if you will, to be put in a situation like that or continually victimized through this type of control. But as you said, it is insidious. It can slip in when you don't even realize it, which is another thing that we're going to talk about in just a little bit. And before you know it, it has festered into a pattern of behavior that you are stuck living with until you figure out a way out. Someone they're acquainted with, who they live with, might be married to, might be a boyfriend, girlfriend situation, what have you. But what we want to talk about even more so is recognizing predators who are actually strangers to us. Because I think a lot of us when we're out and about and doing our living our life and doing our thing, we're not looking around wondering, is this person or that person out to get me? Are they stalking me? We're just living and we're just being. But as you teach through Street Smart Safety, and you mentioned a little bit of this in the beginning of the show, we do need to be aware of our surroundings. We need a situational awareness, right? We need to know what's going on around us. We don't have to be hyper-vigilant. We don't have to be on guard all the time, but there are things that we can do and clues that we can pick up on if we are doing active listening and really paying attention to people and our surroundings. So let's get into that a little bit. And as a backdrop for the rest of this conversation, we're going to use examples and situations, the University of Idaho murder case that occurred in 2022. For those who might not be familiar with the case, let's set it up. According to the Idaho State Police website, isp.Idaho.gov, and this is verbatim from that website. On November 13, 2022, four University of Idaho students were murdered in their off-campus home in Moscow, Idaho. The case prompted a month-long investigation that involved local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies. On December 30th, 2022, Brian Koberger was arrested and later charged with four counts of first-degree murder and one count of felony burglary. Following his conviction, the case was fully adjudicated on July 23rd, 2025. He pled guilty and was sentenced to four fixed life terms to run consecutively without the possibility of parole, as well as a fixed term of 10 years for the burglary. Now, Joey, I want to start with you because we want to understand offenders or predators who are strangers to us. What are your thoughts about offenders who may not know their victims, but may use coercive control tactics or rely on the previously mentioned misconceptions to prey upon them?
SPEAKER_02:Stranger predators use similar tactics that they use in interpersonal relationships. So they use microtest, eye contact, personal space violations, ignoring boundaries, pushing small requests. They're looking for compliance, confusion, or hesitation from a potential victim. So they're looking for vulnerabilities and they're counting on that. So the offenders rely on some of the same societal misconceptions that women are always thinking of. Women are overreacting. He's probably just friendly. You're reading too much into it. But any of that hesitation flies the predator time. And strangers don't need a relationship to exploit any of those narratives.
SPEAKER_03:You're absolutely right. And I want to c point back to something that Lara said about how polite she was. She was raised to be polite. Women are typically raised to be polite and to acquiesce and to accommodate and to make themselves smaller. Don't stand out. Be a nice girl. And I do think often, and this is documented in research, that predators look for victims who are nice and accommodating and will go along and they don't want to upset you or hurt your feelings or say no, even if they feel uncomfortable. And I believe, Laura, that we talked about this very thing in one of the episodes that we recorded for Genesis the Podcast that also included an extended version of your personal experience with domestic violence. And listeners can go to Genesis the Podcast. The episodes were aired in the summer of 2025 and see those three episodes that the three of us did together that includes more information about why you don't have to be nice to everybody. Okay. Now, Joy, you wrote a very compelling article on LinkedIn about Brian Koberger, the man charged with the murders of the four college students in Idaho. And the article was titled, He didn't snap, he studied. What everyone missed about Brian Koberger. Well, many were led to believe that his heinous acts were random, especially since one of the victims was male. Joy, you pitch a different story on this. Could you weigh in on what prompted you to write the piece and how it plays into what we have already discussed about coercive control and predatory behavior?
SPEAKER_02:I wrote it because the public conversation was stuck on the wrong idea, I believe, that he snapped. Because nothing about that crime scene suggested impulsivity. Everything suggested planning, surveillance, obsession, and entitlement. And that's the same psychology that we see with domestic abusers. It's just expressed a little differently. But they all believe that they have the right to other people's lives and their space and their bodies. So we're talking about these patterns aren't random, they're recognizable. And that connection matters for prevention.
SPEAKER_03:So if listeners want to read the article, they can follow Joy Farrow, F-A-R-R-O-W, on LinkedIn, and they can find the article on her LinkedIn page. Now, several times throughout the article, you mentioned that the Idaho student murders were not impulsive or passionate. And this is a quote: this is not the historical work of a rookie killer. He didn't escalate out of control, he escalated with control. And that's such a brilliant theory. Now, in your experience as a law enforcement officer and safety expert, what do you know about predator profiles that refute the idea that these murders just happen?
SPEAKER_02:Well, take this one, for example. Predators don't need a criminal history to have a predatory mindset. So we look at the behavior and not the biography. His method says it all. The entry into the home, the movement through a three-story house that he had no idea of the layout, and the victim selection all showed deliberate control, not chaos. So a lot of times people think that first-time offenders start small, and that's not always true. This one is a very startling case, and some start with their fantasy, which was his, fully formed. So his plan was a very long time in the making. As a matter of fact, he purchased online specific items: a knife, the sheath, a mask. He was very careful about forensics. He turned his phone on and off at the scene and leaving the scene. He brought a change of clothes, which he changed into when he crossed over to state lines. And that was another thought that he knew that if he crossed state lines quickly, that the police wouldn't be looking for him. So those are steps far beyond a first-timer. So this was just remarkable. He surveilled the house more than 23 times over more than six-month period. So who knows how long he was plotting it before he we got to the house.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, you're reading my mind. I was thinking the very same thing that he was plotting and planning this for an extended period of time. We don't know how long. I don't know enough details about what the investigation revealed. But it does sound as if he targeted these victims and he has no priors. So he was not in CODIS, he was not in the police databases, people didn't know who he was, and he just thought he was gonna get away with it and go about his life, and he almost did. If he had not left that sheath behind, it would have been a little harder to track him, don't you think?
SPEAKER_02:They found a lot of evidence through the cell phone, but finding the sheath that time where everybody thinks that they commit the perfect crime, and uh so there were mistakes starting to be made, but the police did an outstanding job investigating this for months that wasn't publicly available, which was very good, that they kept it quiet.
SPEAKER_03:Did you read some of those files? I haven't seen much of it. I only know what's been reported and what you've talked about.
SPEAKER_02:Because the police never got to interview him and didn't go to court and he just pled guilty, so that left a lot of unanswered questions, and they could only speculate and go by the evidence. But when you think about it, him picking this one house, one residence, that I'm sure he probably heard of from other students. Where were they going? It was a big house, four people were murdered in it, but more people were living in it. I believe three more people were in it that night. So that's a lot of people. So you the targeting of who people thought he was targeting, that's a lot to take on for one person. He had to make his way through a three-story house knowing that there were a lot of people in there. His confidence level was very high. And he took on a lot in his fantasy brain thinking, I got this. So it really made a lot of investigators scratch their head that this is just amazing for a first-time out supposedly killer. That was a pretty big incident.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's almost a new type of killer, right? Just this guy who comes out of nowhere and doesn't seem to have anything in his past that would truly indicate that he may commit this type of a crime.
SPEAKER_02:To that extent.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, to that extent, exactly. Now, what do we learn? What are our takeaways about the predatory behaviors or patterns from this particular case that we can give listeners an idea of what we could look for in our own lives to ensure our own safety?
SPEAKER_02:You want to look at the behaviors of people around you? What are they saying? Because a lot of times these predators are hiding in plain sight. So they're the quiet people, they're not looking to stand out until they want to stand out. But you know, are they following you? Are they making you uncomfortable? What is it about them? What is it about their behaviors? What do they want from you? Have you said no, I'm not interested? And they keep hounding you. So there are behaviors that, like we said, the patterns start showing up for these people. One of his standouts was as a teacher, he was making women feel uncomfortable. And by the time the university spoke to him about it, it was a little late in the game already.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and there's nothing really to connect making women uncomfortable with murdering four people and who might those four people do. They weren't even students of his, as I understand it. And it's also hard to say how often, if at all, the individuals in that house who were murdered actually interacted with him even in passing. There's not a lot of information there. He wouldn't testify or go to trial, so we don't know the motivation. So his particular patterns are a little bit harder to identify. However, one of the victims, Kaylee, I believe it was, did mention in the weeks prior to the crime occurring, feeling like she was being followed, thinking that someone was out following her or watching her, maybe, while she was walking her dog. So there's an indication there when you have a gut feeling, you feel like you're being followed, your intuition is telling you something. And she did, in fact, we know that she said that because she shared it with people. She shared it with her roommates. So when someone shares a piece of information with you like that, we need to take it seriously. Now, again, in this case, there there is no way we could have connected all these dots because no, I mean, it just isn't possible. It's too random of different occurrences. But looking back on it, we can learn a lot from it. And I think one of, for me, one of the key takeaways, and I've heard this from other investigators and experts that I've talked to on the show, is trust your intuition because it's a built-in system of telling you something. And Laura, I think that you told me. Yeah, I think that you called it our hardware. I did. And that being kind is software, I think is how it works, right? Hardware, we're hardwired for survival.
SPEAKER_01:Excellent memory, Maria. I did say that. And it's our intuitive safety is a mammal. Every mammal has it, every creature has it, probably. Our ancestors had it on the savannah with tigers and saber-tooth tigers and lions. They knew when they were being followed they could sense it. We all sense it. It's our five senses reporting back to our subconscious. But in today's society, women have been, as you mentioned earlier, so socialized to be polite that we dismiss it and we say, I'm probably overreacting. And so we do that to our own detriment.
SPEAKER_03:Absolutely. And in this case, again, I just want to point out I'm not blaming victims, roommates, anybody who was involved in the case. I'm just simply using it as an example of please, if not if you see something, say something. And if someone tells you something, please take it seriously and take the action that you can for your own safety and security. Laura, there are a couple of other great points in Joy's article. Now, as a domestic violence trauma advocate, we'd love to have your insight on a couple of these things. One of them was a quote, people confuse progress with safety. Could you elaborate on that statement?
SPEAKER_01:Koberger is a great example of that. So Koberger was an addict. He was a heroin addict. He started small with marijuana and he progressed to heroin. And then he went into detox and he went into recovery. And he turned his life around, right? He went from being an addict to a student, he was a PhD student, and that's a great redemption story. And we all love redemption stories, don't we? And we saw that Koberger was starting to make a start, right, to rejoin society. But in recovery, there's a saying, and it goes like this if you sober up a horse thief, you're gonna have a horse thief who doesn't drink. And I think that was the case with Koberger, because in many cases we confuse progress is safety, and that can be performative. So Koberger stopped using, so he seemed to be safe. He was getting his life back together. But there is a redemption story, and it's not a redemption act. He quit using, but there are 12 steps in recovery. And so if somebody quits using, that doesn't mean that they have a redemption story. That means that they have that redemption act, but we so want people to change that as soon as they show any indication, as Koberger did, that they are starting to get their life back together, not using or not doing whatever it is that we're doing. We mentally take that all the way to the end and they say, well, they're better. We don't have to worry about them anymore, and we are safe. And the truth of the matter is, as I mentioned, that the redemption point is not the redemption story.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for clarifying all of that and pointing that out. I think it's a great example. Also, Joy stated that Koberger's plan was to destroy safety. As a survivor and trauma advocate, how does that type of motivation resonate with you and other victims and survivors?
SPEAKER_01:That resonates with me because the ability of a predator or an abuser to destroy our sense of safety makes us panic. It shortens that journey from feeling safe to absolute panic. And when we panic, we're out of control and we can't think. And that's exactly where predators want us, to the point where we are so panic stricken that we don't know what to do, and we do not feel like we have any choices. And the military calls that they have a term for that, and it's called code black. And that's when you are absolutely overcome by fear and you don't know what else to do. So, again, whether it's abusers or strangers, they want us to feel like that because it really limits our choices to the point where we just feel like giving up. We may as well just give up because there's no other choice. And if we can recognize those predatory patterns and we can recognize even that mindset, I think it goes a long way in keeping us safer so that we can keep our wits about us, if you will, and really keep track of what's going on so that we can make choices to run, to defend ourselves, or to do something else that would be in our best interest so that we don't go into hopelessness and despair.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think this is a pretty interesting concept about destroying safety because, okay, so he destroyed four lives and their families, obviously. He destroyed a sense of safety for the other people who were in the house and may have encountered him or experienced this entire traumatic incident. He destroyed the safety of a community. That sense of safety that you have, that you can go into your house at night, lock the door, go to bed, and you know, nothing's going to happen. The safety of a university, an entire university campus, and anybody else who's been following this story has a question now in their mind: Am I safe? Is there a predator? And we shouldn't have to live that way, but the reality is we can take some steps to restore our own sense of safety and also actively pursue safety for ourselves on a daily basis. And that is among the many things that you talk about and teach about with street smart safety. Could you expand more on this concept you refer to as systemic blindness and what the implications are for when it occurs?
SPEAKER_02:Systemic blindness, we'll say, is when institutions only recognize danger when there's a victim or a headline. But everything before that, stalking, threats, boundary testing, gets minimized or dismissed. So the implication is brutal because by the time the institutions act, the offender has already escalated to the point of no return. Prevention doesn't happen at the crisis. That's too late. It happens at the first red flag. And too many systems simply aren't trained to see them. And that's today's problem.
SPEAKER_03:What would be a training program that would help with all of that?
SPEAKER_02:Strengthening the early warning system for complaints from students or teachers so that the complaints aren't being dismissed and teaching more spotting red flags and behavioral red flags and doing something about it until instead of waiting until something happens.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, I wanted to add that along the systemic blindness, if you will, that so often when women speak up about it, it's ignored and that it's minimized and not taken seriously. And we have noticed that that is something, it certainly showed up in the Koberger case, but it's not isolated to the Coburger case. Koberger women complained about him, students complained about him, and what did they do? They decided to take a report rather than starting an active investigation rather than taking action.
SPEAKER_03:Now, while the Idaho students could not have known that night would be their last, and that it would come to such a brutal and tragic end, there are some things the entire House of Residence and University could have done to reduce risks of danger. Can you both share with us what women can do and not do that might keep them safer?
SPEAKER_02:We'll start with your home. So it's good to have Now they have cameras that you could hook up to apps and you can know what's going on outside your property. You're alerted on your phone. Anything that would light up the property, an actual alarm system that makes an audible sound. So that would scare off people. And especially if you're in a house with a lot of people or a couple of roommates or your own home, it doesn't matter. Predators don't want that attention, and especially when the spotlight goes on. So those are good things to have for your home. Also for your personal safety, it's good to carry self-defense tools like a pepper spray or a personal alarm. Even have some of the apps on your phone that you can share your location. And you also want to pay attention to who has access to you and your home and what else you're going to be doing on social media. So you're sharing your location. Those are things that maybe you might want to tighten up a little bit. And one of the main things is to remember is that all predators don't look like the nasty movie villains. They may just look like somebody good looking. So, you know, you can't judge a book by the cover. You have to judge by their behaviors.
SPEAKER_01:So I'll add from an emotional and mental perspective for women is we'll go back to what we talked about before. Stop being so nice, polite, and accommodating. Set those boundaries and don't let those boundaries be crossed. It doesn't mean that you have to be mean. It just means that, as we talked about also before, predators test for boundaries. Can they get past it? And it's not just a jump over the boundary. It'll be a soft nudge, then they'll pull back. And abusers do this as well. Soft nudge, give it a try, then they'll pull back, and then sort of try and convince you that maybe they were joking. So that's important. And if you're uncomfortable, don't rationalize that away. Don't dismiss it and say, oh, it's probably nothing. Because if you are feeling uncomfortable, there's a good reason for that. And honor that. Honor yourself and honor your intuitive safety and what your own instincts are telling you.
SPEAKER_03:That's good advice. I appreciate your time and your work. Keep doing what you're doing, keeping people safe. It's really important and so valuable. And thank you both for talking with me today.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for having us on, Maria.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks, Maria. Thanks so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe. The 21st Annual Conference on Crimes Against Women will be held May 18th through the 21st, 2026, in Dallas, Texas. Learn more at conferencecaw.org and be the first to know about all conference details, as well as the latest on the Institute for Coordinating Community Response, Annual Conference Summit, Beyond the Bounds, and the National Training Center on Crimes Against Women. When you follow us on social media at NationalCCAW.