E. Jean Carroll: Let's Salute Old Women

This week on All Ears, Abby is joined by E. Jean Carroll. Carroll is a journalist, memoirist, and the author of America’s longest running advice column. She’s also one of the many, many women who have come forward with sexual assault allegations against former President Donald Trump. When Trump denied the allegation Carroll sued him for defamation, and oral arguments are set to begin on December 3rd. Here, Carroll tells Abby her side of the story in vivid and exacting detail. What follows is a personal narrative in the hands of a master storyteller: E. Jean spins a web of drama, dry wit, and boundless vivacity as she recounts her childhood in Indiana, her lawsuit, the road trip that makes up the contents of her memoir, and what exactly it is that we need men for.

EPISODE LINKS
E. Jean Carroll's Substack
Askejean.com
E. Jean Carroll v Trump
E. Jean Carroll on America's Talking (1995)
The Cut, Hideous Men by E. Jean Carroll, 2019
The Atlantic, 'I Moved On Her Very Heavily' The E. Jean Carroll Interviews, 2020
New York Times, Why E. Jean Carroll, the 'Anti-Victim,' Spoke Up About Trump, 2019
New York Times, What Happened Between E. Jean Carroll and Elle Magazine? 2020
The New Yorker, There's A Lot More to E. Jean Carroll's Book Than Trump, 2020
NPR, Biden DOJ Plans To Continue To Defend Trump, 2021
The Cheerleaders, by E. Jean Carroll
What Do We Need Men For? A Modest Proposal
Hunter: The Strange and Savage Life of Hunter S. Thompson 

Transcript

All Ears with Abigail Disney 

Season 3 Episode 4: E. Jean Carroll 

Let’s Salute Old Women

Air Date: October 7, 2021

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Just a program note, before we get started, a warning that this episode includes discussions of sexual violence and abuse. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: All right so, in ‘95 or ‘96, I had the Ask E Jean television show and it ran every day at four o'clock on, an, on a NBC channel called America's talking, which is now MSNBC. So I was running in that media circle in New York. So I was coming out of Bergdorf Goodman’s. The greatest department store on the earth at around 7, 6:30 or 7, because I remember outside, it was dark. So we're–I'm placing it in ‘95, ‘96 during the winter months. And I was wearing a Donna Karan black, wool, coat dress and a pair of tights, but I wasn't wearing a coat. So, I was walking out and Donald Trump was standing on the other side of the door and he put up his hand to stop me. And he came in, he said, ‘Hey, you're that advice lady.’ And I said, ‘Oh, hey, you're that real estate mogul.’ He said, ‘Come help me find a gift for a girl.’

Well, Abby, what could be more fun? Helping Donald Trump find a present for a girl? 

MUSIC 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Well, I'm doing things a little differently this week because my guest is nothing If not unique. That woman you heard talking about her ill fated trip to Bergdorf Goodman's? That's writer E. Jean Carroll who grew up in the sticks of Indiana, became a champion cheerleader and pageant queen and against all odds for a woman at the time, managed to piece together a long and really interesting career. Long running advice columnist in Elle magazine? Check. Writer for SNL. Yep. Contributing editor for Playboy magazine? That's E. Jean. How about talk show host? How about biographer of Hunter S. Thompson? The list goes on. And yet there are bound to be some of you who may only know her for one thing. She's one of the many, many, many, many women who accused Donald Trump of sexual assault. And after he denied it, she took him to court suing the former president for defamation. And I freaking love that. She and I had a long delightful conversation because she's delightful as you'll hear. But before we get to that, I want her to tell us, uninterrupted, the story of the alleged assault in her own words. Take a listen, and I'll see you on the other side. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: There was hardly anything going on in the store. It was late. I tried to convince him to buy a hat. He would have none of that. We walked past the handbags. He was going to have none of that. I will admit, I thought this was just the most hilarious thing, helping Donald Trump find a present for a girl. And I said, “Who's the girl? And how old is she?” And he actually asked me how old was I, and at the time I always likeD to shock people with the truth. I was 52 and he looked at me and he said, “You are old.” I'll never forget it. So then he decided that he knew what he wanted to get. He wanted to get her lingerie. So we went up the escalator and the escalator in Bergdorf's is a lot of fun. It's like an amusement ride because you go from floor to floor and you get to look at all the beautiful clothes as you get off. So we got off on–I don't remember what floor it was. And we walked through cruise wear and came to the lingerie. There was nobody there, there was nobody, Abby, on the entire floor. And there was a sort of a lilac gray bodysuit just lying on the counter and he picked it up and he said, “Go put this on.” 

Well, this struck me as too delicious for words. I said, “No, you put it on.” And then he held it up against me, he said, “Yeah, it looks like you'll fit this.” And then I held it up, I said, “No, it goes with your eyes.” It was very, very funny. And I'm thinking, oh my God, I can't wait to go out to dinner with this story, this is just hilarious. So it was back and forth. I actually smacked him in the chest with the box, when he held the thing up against me and told me to put it on. So he says, “No, let's go put this on.” And he started to walk towards the dressing room and I was thinking, oddly enough, I am going to make Donald Trump put this body suit on over his pants. That's what I'm thinking. 

So, I walked into the dressing room, like a moron. And he came in behind me and shut the door and shoved me up against the wall. I banged my head very hard. And then I banged it against the wall, again, a second time. And he was up against me. Yeah. He was wearing his big overcoat, suit, tie, very correctly dressed. You know, he's a very large man. I had no idea. He's like 6’3. I am tall myself and I had on thick patent leather heels. And I started to laugh because Abby, I thought, what on earth is going on? This is pretty funny. Then he put his mouth against mine and then as a defense, I started to laugh even more and tried to push him back. But his entire weight was against me. And then he got my tights down and put his hand down, into my–around my vagina and stuck his fingers in there and then shoved his penis in for a very short time, because by that time I was kicking and raising my knee, and had got out.

I remember I was constantly hitting him with my purse and I had no idea–because by the time I got out on the street, I still had my purse in my hand. I can’t remember ever, not having my purse. And I took out my phone and, still laughing, I called my friend, Lisa. I'm laughing and she said, this is not funny, E. Jean. He raped you. So that, my reaction was, it was a fight and it was short. It was probably–the whole thing was probably no more than two, three minutes. 

It was shocking, it was disorienting. It's uh–you can see why I think of it as a fight. It never entered my head it was a sexual assault. To me it was a fight. And to this day, Abby, I blame myself for being dumb. I understand, people say it's not your fault, but sometimes women have just got to be smarter than that. You don't go into a dressing room with a man. You just don't do it. I don't care how funny you think it will be. Don't do it. 

And so it never occurred to me to ever tell anybody, I told a second friend, she said, keep this quiet. He's got 200 lawyers. Lisa wanted me to go to the police. And it was at that point I decided I would never, never tell anybody that this had ever happened. So I buried it. And that was it. 

In 2016, my mother was dying. She was a Republican politician, and she lived long enough to vote for Hillary and I saw all the women coming forward, but my mother was on her deathbed. I still didn't come forward. And then, my little road trip happened, and I lost my temper and I said, screw it. I'm going to tell everybody. So I just, it just came out. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: And come out E Jean's story did. In 2019, she included it in her book, What Do We Need Men For? And for a lot of women who heard it, many parts of the story were not at all unusual or surprising. One out of every six women in this country has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape. The details change, but the power dynamics are always the same. So now I want to share with you the interview with E. Jean, who is just, what can I tell you? She's one tough broad, starting with her childhood in the 1940s. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: You never use the word for yourself, but I was an unadulterated tomboy, and I see a fellow traveler in you. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yes. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I think you were probably a tomboy and a rascal. So how much of your resiliency now do you chalk up to how you brought yourself up as a tomboy? 

E. JEAN CARROLL: When I was, I don't know, two, I was raised in the sticks of Indiana out in the hills, in an old school house. And my mother just opened up the front door and turned me loose. Really. I was like a young goat, with my dog as my companion and I would stay out til lunch, come in and then go out again. This would never happen today, Abby. Mothers never turn their children outside. And as you say, as a young girl, I grew strong and healthy, with nobody telling me I couldn't do whatever. I was raised as an athlete. I competed nationally in high jumping and then when I won Miss Indiana University, my father came up backstage and slapped me on the back. He said, “That's my boy.” You know? 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: *Laughs* I like that. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: So that strain of, that tomboyish–that is a really, you know, you've really got me thinking now. This strain of tomboy-ish in women really does add oomph to resilience. It really does.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: For sure, for sure. So I spent my childhood kind of beating the boys at things. So it never crossed my mind that I wasn't any man's equal. Is that where you were, when you kind of got out of your childhood? Did it ever cross your mind that men were better at things than you or more worthy or whatever?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Boy, I have never considered either of these questions. I didn't–yeah, you're right. I didn't think boys were better. I knew they could do things I couldn't do. Because they were taller and stronger, but not much stronger. You know what? Growing up, I grew up in the forties, the fifties and little girls were concerned–Boy, this is such a question, Abby. You've got my head ringing. How did I perceive it? How did I perceive I was equal? I guess I always have, from the moment I came out of my mother's womb and she was a rabid feminist. So that helped. Was your mother a feminist?

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Oh, my God. Quite the opposite. There was no tolerance for feminists in my house. And, I mean, I had it said to me more than once by my father that, you know, men and women are different and there are things men are better at.

So I had my very clear instructions about equality, but what's interesting to me is that like, I didn't believe any of it. It just bounced off of me. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Did it ever occur to you that you would prefer to be a boy?

ABIGAIL DISNEY: You know, I have wondered about this so much, as things around gender are changing and changing. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Right, right, right. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: And I have wondered about this a lot. I wonder if I were young today and there are so many other possibilities than just, you know, being a rough, tough tomboy. And I don't know the answer to that. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: I don't either. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: It's clear, there was stuff they got to do that I didn't get to do. And I envy them so much, but at the same time, like having grown into adulthood, I'm comfortable with being identified as a woman and I'm really happy with that. So it's weird, and I wonder a lot. Do you ever wonder?

E. JEAN CARROLL: I wonder–when I was in college, a friend and I used to dress up as men and try to pass as men for a lark. And then today that would be called–we would go out presenting as men. We just did it to see if we could get away with it. Actually what we wanted to do is we wanted to rob a bank and we wanted to test our disguise. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: *Laughs*

E. JEAN CARROLL: No, I'm serious. We were seriously plotting to rob a bank. You know, why were we thinking of that? Because there were not that many opportunities for young women, in the early sixties. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: So in 2017, as we were all watching the world burn under the Trump administration, E. Jean decided to undertake what 18th century satirist Jonathan Swift called A Modest Proposal. She ventured forth, noodling across the middle of the country in her polka dotted Prius named Miss Bingley and asked America her burning question. What do we need men for?

 ABIGAIL DISNEY: So in 2017 you drove across the country. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. 

 ABIGAIL DISNEY: You only stopped in towns named after women. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Right. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: And ate in restaurants owned by women, right. And listened to women on the radio. And you went around asking people, what do we need men for?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. I drive into these little towns, well, Abby, you know, better than I do when you get out of the two coasts, it's fascinating, the middle of the country, the south, and these little screen door towns. And I would get out of the car and have Lewis Carroll, my big white poodle, who is no longer with us. And we would get out of my car, Miss Bingley is painted with huge blue polka dots. Drive into these little towns, get out, and people would just gather around. This was in the south. I’d open up my camera and start the video and say, “What do we need men for?” And they were so lovely. People would answer me. Now in New York, they'll stop and say, “What's this for? Who are you doing this for? I want a signed release or I'm not answering.” In the south they would stop and they would think about the answer and they would be cordial and women had a lot to say about what they needed men for and what they didn't need men for. So it was fascinating. The reason why I went there was I thought we should get rid of men. I’d had it up to here. I’d just had it.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, totally understandably. I completely get it. Having read your book. I would be exactly right there with you. So did you learn what we need them for? 

Did you get–anybody change your mind?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Oh, well, of course it turns out we all love men, that's the thing. Well, we really like them. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Warts and all. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. The answer is we just don't want them to run everything.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yes, yes. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: They're not very good at running everything, as you know, I mean, you're fighting every day. The struggle right now for democracy against the white supremacists and the proud boys and the neo-Nazis, this is a struggle for the future of America. So I'm sick of men running everything. I'm just sick of it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: And I think of that strain of white supremacy that is always connected to hardcore misogyny. It's like, you can't separate those things.  

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah!

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I think of it as like a form of masculine fundamentalism. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. Right.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Did you get any hostility about your question?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Never, never. They would laugh. And, you know, I would go up to groups of men, a men's lunch club in a sandwich shop. What's the famous set of–sub… sub–

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Oh, Subway. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Subway! Which, by the way, I was allowed to go into Subways because the CEO was a woman. So I was in a Subway and they–everybody took the question seriously. They hated Hillary. Oh my God. They had a difficult time picturing a woman running the country. They couldn't do it. And actually the women I asked had difficulty thinking of a woman they'd like to see run the country. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. What is that? The deep, deep, deep hatred of Hillary? I mean, what is, where does that come from?

E. JEAN CARROLL: She was powerful. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: You know, there's one passage in the book that is this lovely man who's curating a small museum in Louisiana. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Oh, yeah, right. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah,do you have your book with you?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yes, I do. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Could you read that to us? I think that exchange is so interesting.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Really? Where is that–hang on. Oh, there he is. 

 ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Wow.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: So, what do we need men for Mr. Martin?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Oh yeah. Oh, Mr. Martin was like five foot two, and wearing a little cap with a tractor company on it and little chinos. And he volunteered his time every day to come in and sit in this little museum. It's in Louisiana. Okay, so, “What do we need men for Mr. Martin? I say. Mr. Martin takes a moment before he answers. ‘Well, you need men to protect you.’ ‘Against whom?’ I say. ‘The enemy,’ says Mr. Martin, not realizing that like the 10th Illinois Calvary I'm setting a trap. ‘The enemy?’ I say, Mr. Martin frowns. ‘You mean other men?’ I say. ‘Well, I suppose,’ he says wearily. So I say, ‘We need men so they can fight other men?’ He smiles, Mr. Martin is too smart to answer. ‘But we need men to protect us.’ I say, ‘Right?’ ‘Yes.’ He says. ‘To protect us from whom?’ 

Mr. Martin smiles, ‘You got to have protection,’ he says. ‘From other men?’ I say. ‘From bad men, yes.’ He says, and then he adds happily, ‘And from floods!’” And he's right about the floods.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, I bet he was really happy he thought of floods finally, because he really wanted out of that question. So, the idea for the trip and the book came from your advice column, which you wrote for years for Elle and you're now on Substack. You said you realized women had been writing to you for years and that their problems almost always boiled down to one thing: men. Are there certain problems that you see in the columns more often than others? I mean, what does it break down to? 

E. JEAN CARROLL: The number one question coming in to Ask E. Jean over the last 30 years is “How do I get a man?” That’s the number one question. It comes in all forms, but it's, “How do I get a man?” The number two question is “How do I get rid of a man?” The number three question is “How do I get a man back?” You know why that is? Because humans are happy when they have a mate, they're just happier. They just want somebody to love. Their lives are happier if they have a partner and that's why the letters are concerned with that. So, it's interesting. It's probably been the same way for thousands of years.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, I would imagine if there were stone tablets full of advice, they'd be–that it would be all about getting men and losing men and getting them back again.

E. JEAN CARROLL: I swear to God! Yes! 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Well, as you might imagine, What Do We Need Men For? A Modest Proposal, became the title of the 2019 book E. Jean would write about the trip. Part road trip, part memoir, it includes her list of the twenty-one hideous men who over the years made her life–well let’s just say, less than pleasant. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: You know, the book is interesting because there you are out asking questions and getting very interesting discussions out of it. But it's also a memoir and you do tell us your own life story and talk about the various hideous men. And they're really hideous. I mean from sexual assault to just jackass-ery, they’re very hideous. The stories are very horrific. And yet you always seem to brush past it emotionally. Is that real or is that work for you to–have you had to get to a place where you can brush past it?

E. JEAN CARROLL: No, no. I am a woman who spends exactly zero time looking back. I just–the reason why I'm very happy is I don't think about bad things. I just don't think about it. When I took the time to–by the way, Abby, I did not know I was going to do the hideous men list. When I started out on this trip, I was going to go find out if we needed men because women who wrote in to Ask E. Jean were being driven crazy by men. I thought, okay, let’s just get rid of 'em. But the day I started that trip, the very day, on the highway I pull over to see what the Times headlines are, and there it is, the headline story about Harvey Weinstein. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah.

E. JEAN CARROLL: And I turned off the motor. And I started to read. They had every detail. It blew the lid off of the silence in the country. And then the wave after wave of women standing up. And I thought by God I too, you know, and I started making a list. And then once you start to get into the thinking about what happened then, you know, the past comes alive. I was furious, as I was writing the book and now I'm like, okay, I'm once again happy. While I was writing you never saw anybody so pissed off as I was.  

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I actually–you're going to love this. I was hailing a cab like two days after that story. I was on fire. I was so angry. I couldn't take it anymore. I hail a cab and this cab stops. The cab driver gets out–it's like six in the morning on Sunday morning or something–and he grabs a very young woman who's in the back of his cab, crying, by the arm and drags her out of the cab and she's crying and crying and crying. And he's like, “You have to pay me!” And she says, “I forgot my wallet!” And it's very clear what's happening here. It's like not a big thing. And so I said, “What does she owe you?” And he said $8, and when he said $8 and that he had laid his hands on this woman and she was so young and so tiny and he was being so mean. I just lost all control of myself and I stepped in between them. And I told her to run north on fifth avenue and she like, couldn't believe it. She was like, who is this old woman. But I couldn't even think straight and I shoved him.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Good! Oh I love it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: He looked at me with, like, this shock, and he shoved me back, so I shoved him again. And I think I saw in his face that I was just as strong as he was, and he was shocked and–just shocked. And, in that moment, I saw in my head, finally, that he didn't have anything else. That was his whole book of tricks, right there, was shoving me. He didn't have one other idea. And so once he was out of ideas, he turned into a little sheep. Got back in his cab and drove off. Oh my God. It was like having an exorcism. It was like every time any guy had ever tried to use his size and his strength on me, it was like the most beautiful, magnificent thing. So, in a weird way, I want to thank Harvey Weinstein for giving me that opportunity. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Oh boy, wait a minute, wait a minute. How tall are you Abby?

ABIGAIL DISNEY: 5’5. I'm average size, you know. And he was the same height as me. He was basically the same size and the same shape.

E. JEAN CARROLL: You shoved a New York cab driver? 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I did that, I did that. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: A New York cab driver. And they do not take shit from anybody and you shoved him. Oh, thank you. Thank you on behalf of womanhood everywhere.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: But anyway, back to the book for sec, you, for the first time in your life, really laid this all out publicly, what had happened to you and especially the charge against Trump. And of course, that got so much attention. Did it all unfold the way you were expecting, or were you surprised by the way people reacted?

E. JEAN CARROLL: No, I knew it was coming. Cause I'd seen the women come forward in 2016 and every single one of them was dragged through the mud. Her reputation was shot. Her livelihood was cut off. I knew it was coming. I knew it was coming. I just, you know what? I couldn't stop myself. That was it. I had had it up to here. I saw that staying silent didn't do anything. The only real way we can change things is to speak out and it is helping, speaking out is helping. So I knew it was coming. I didn't expect the president to malign me for three straight days to the press. But the other–the thing that shocked me when the headlines of Stephanie Grisham's book hit and she has a section in her book where she talks about Trump maligning my looks and then saying to Stephanie, “Always deny, always deny.” So I felt immediately vindicated when I saw that. Right? I knew he would deny it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: So you don't like words like rape and survivor and victim?

E. JEAN CARROLL: I never used the word victim or I almost never, never use the word survivor, Abby, You're going to love it. I saw it as a fight. That's how I saw, I didn't see him doing something to me. I saw him grabbing me and then I saw it as a fight and so that is my way of dealing with tragedy and to deal with a crisis.  Yeah, I don't like that word because it's something that a man does to a woman. That I don't like. I hate the whole concept of throwing a woman down and then doing something to her. I just wanted to take it away from that. The word is so charged and it has such a male power connected to it. It's all male power. You think of a helpless female and you think of an all powering male and I hate that. I hate it. So I try not to use it. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: I guess the thing that I run my life on is to always be amused, to never be angry. That's my whole thing. That's why writing the book was such a turn for me, but I'm now back to being amused by everything. I have always lived my life to laugh at everything. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: But let me ask you this, because you know, you described things that anyone would call traumatic and young women, I'm wondering how they react to that. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: People try to convince me that I did feel, that I did feel horrible and that I did feel bad because of this. And I kept saying, I don't, it's over, it's over. I have moved on. It's hard for people to understand somebody who quickly puts things behind them.  So that is my way of dealing with tragedy and to deal with, to deal with a crisis.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah.

E. JEAN CARROLL: It's just my initial response. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. Yeah, no, I understand it. I mean, you talk a little bit about being part of the silent generation that–

E. JEAN CARROLL: Oh boy, were we silent. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. Yeah. So was that part of just like why you never came forward before that book?

E. JEAN CARROLL: It would never occur to me. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: So let me ask you this. Do you think, since you were young, men have changed at all, or are they just the same guys in different outfits?

E. JEAN CARROLL: Men have not changed. Men have not changed. They've learned what they have to do now in these circumstances. There've always been very good men. We're not talking about those guys, we're talking about across the board, the general run of men, and we're talking about worldwide men. No change. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: How do you think we’d do if you got what you wished for and we took all the men away, how do you think women would do?

E. JEAN CARROLL: I think women would do fabulous. We wouldn't have to shave our legs, number one, which would be great. No, I think it would be great. I think it would be sensational. I think it would be lovely, actually. I don't see a problem.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I have a slightly different view, which is that women are definitely at the general level different from men. But then again, there are women who are, you know, hideous just as much as men. So I would love to see a Nirvana in that case, but at the same time, I also know we would create our own version of hell without men to balance us out. It would just be a different hell.

E. JEAN CARROLL: I don't think so Abby, I think it would be a much better world, really. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. It would be less violent. But I do think that like our problem is we're not in balance. You know, when men run everything where there's not a balance, there's no check on them. And I think that's the big problem. Do you think men can change? 

E. JEAN CARROLL: No. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Mm. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Do you? Do you think men can change? 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Um, gosh, I don't know. I hope so. I'm a mother of two sons, so I think I see in them good things.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah, no, of course your two sons are great. You asked if men as a whole can change and I don't think so. Do you want to go out and–you can't even change an anti-vaxxers mind. Think how difficult that is. So the thing about just changing men, I don't think it's possible. There have always been great gentlemen and there've always been assholes and unfortunately the assholes are rising.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah it does feel like that.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Well, what do you mean? Of course, it's an actual fact. I mean, they're right now fighting tooth and nail in the Senate and the House. You know what that's about? You know what that fight is about in the house. It's to distract us from the real vote, which is the voting rights bill, which is coming up.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Speaking of powerful women, by the way, I saw some video of Nancy Pelosi on the phone last night, she’s just working the phones like, insanely. And she was not taking any prisoners. You could see her face.

 E. JEAN CARROLL: Can we just pause? Can we pause right here, Abby, and just salute old women.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah.

E. JEAN CARROLL: I love Nancy Pelosi cause she is old. She's got experience. She hasn't seen anything that she can’t handle. Oh I love it, I just love it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, yeah. So, you do one of the things that I love, which is you seem not at all worried in any way about hurting men's feelings. You know, they're supposed to be so big and strong, but we go around protecting their feelings all the time. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: I hate to disabuse you but when I'm around men, I want everybody to like me. I'm sorry. I'm nice to them. I'm nice to everybody. I am nice to everybody. I want them all to like me because I like pretty much everybody, even the–you know, I understand, for instance, the people who don't want to get vaccinated, I understand them. I understand that. I understand the people who are against abortion. I understand them. So I pretty much am nice to everybody Abby. I'm not–to somebody's face I'm very rarely disrespectful. In my books, in my writing, in my advice column, I wring their necks. But in real life, I'm sweet as pie, loud and obnoxious, but, you know, sweet.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I know what you mean. I have a hard time being mean to people's faces.

E. JEAN CARROLL: I know, I can't do it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did ask you to pull a couple old columns from the nineties. Is there one that really stands out for you? Is there one column that you wish you could re-answer now with the eyes you have now?

E. JEAN CARROLL: I did spend a little bit of time last night, and I did notice to my bemusement that a sexual harassment question that came in in 1993, she was being badly harassed by her boss. Do you know what I told her to do? I say, “Kick him in the groin, knee him in the groin.” It never entered my head for her to report him. Never.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah, there was nowhere to go with that information and nobody would care. And even if they cared, they wouldn't believe you. I don't think young women really appreciate just the eighties and nineties and just how freaking awful it was for women then. And we didn't have language for it and even if we had language for it, we didn't have anywhere to go.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Abby, here's how dated these columns are. If a woman wrote to me and said she was miserable because she was 60 pounds overweight, my answer would always be, ‘Why are you crying? Lose the weight, lose the weight.’ That's what I would say instead of saying accept yourself. I would never go that road. With me it was always action. And now I see how dated that advice is. 

Anyway, let me see. Here's one where, if it ran today, I would be canceled. It's a woman who wrote into me, and I used to do this constantly. Women are writing to me asking about having affairs, and I would tell them to go do it. I would tell them, yeah, go have it. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: That was the E. Jean philosophy, is–

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Yeah. Just say yes. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Yeah. Just, yeah, you just enjoy as many chaps as you possibly can. You're only on this earth to have fun. That was my whole thing. Actually, it's still my whole thing. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: But so what would your answer be now? 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Well, here's the thing: I agree with my old self. I agree. I pay a woman a compliment to think that her brain is large enough and her philosophical foundation is broad enough that if she is strong enough, she can have an affair. If it wouldn't hurt the marriage, and if it wouldn't hurt the man's marriage, I think it adds pleasure and deliciousness and depth to a life. I can't say that today. I cannot say it. I will be beaten up because people can't hold two ideas in their head at once today. Have you noticed that? 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Mhm, mhm.

E. JEAN CARROLL: F. Scott Fitzgerald said the definition of an intellectual is someone who can hold two opposing views in their head. How many years have you been married? 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I’ve been with my husband since I was nineteen.

E. JEAN CARROLL: You had very good luck to meet the man that you were going to marry at nineteen. And that was very lucky. It's nothing you did. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Exactly. Just dumb luck.

E. JEAN CARROLL: It was dumb luck. That's why all the people write to me. They want that. That's what they want. We understand why they want that. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Mmhmm. So, yeah. So you end up suing Donald Trump for defamation. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: Right.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I want an update on where you are on the lawsuit. 

E. JEAN CARROLL: We won four rounds against Trump in court. The DOJ is appealing the case before the second circuit court of appeals in NY. We meet them, we meet in court December 3rd for oral arguments.

ABIGAIL DISNEY: Awesome. I will be listening with interest.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Well, I have a great outfit, so you better have some video too. 

ABIGAIL DISNEY: I’m so happy you already have your outfit, that's awesome. Okay. E. Jean Carroll continues to dole out advice and hilarity on her Substack, Ask E. Jean, which you can find at E. Jean Carroll.substack dot com. Her latest book. What Do We Need Men For? is a fun and devastating account of a world built for and run by men. You can follow her on Twitter at @EJeanCarroll. E. Jean, this has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much.

E. JEAN CARROLL: Are you kidding?