Kinky Cocktail Hour

Kink Conscious Workshop - Part 3

August 25, 2020 Lady Petra and SafferMaster Season 1 Episode 147
Kinky Cocktail Hour
Kink Conscious Workshop - Part 3
Chapters
Kinky Cocktail Hour
Kink Conscious Workshop - Part 3
Aug 25, 2020 Season 1 Episode 147
Lady Petra and SafferMaster

In this episode, the third and final part of the workshop, Lady Petra and SafferMaster share their 24/7 TPE dynamic with the clinicians attending the Kink Conscious Workshop hosted by Francesca Gentile over a Grasshopper Deluxe. 

Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, the third and final part of the workshop, Lady Petra and SafferMaster share their 24/7 TPE dynamic with the clinicians attending the Kink Conscious Workshop hosted by Francesca Gentile over a Grasshopper Deluxe. 

Speaker 1:

You're listening to kinky cocktail hour, a conversation between adults about sex forward relationships, kinky lifestyles, and Frank communication. If you're under 18, please stop listening and visit Scarlet teen.com. Hi, this is Liddy Petra. I am Safa master, and this is kinky cocktail hour.

Speaker 2:

Cheers.

Speaker 1:

Hi, I'm lady Petra and my pronouns are she her and hers

Speaker 2:

And I'm Safa master and my pronouns are his him. And he,

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm going to probably say it, right? Yeah. So what are we drinking today? So one of our listeners, but we've, I'm going to say this incorrectly vote. He vote the more arty, basically he spells at V O V O D E M O E R T. He suggested a grasshopper. And , uh, so that, that was first developed by Phillip Gus sharp junior in the United States in 1908. And so it's, it's a super easy recipe. It's equal parts of criminal , uh , white cream to Coco green cream , diminish and cream with ice shaken long. And then I added my flair cause we both liked chocolate chip mint, ice cream. So I've got a chocolate creamed meth on the edge of the glass and then put chocolate shavings on it. And chocolate,

Speaker 2:

It's a really pretty glass. I mean, it's , it's beautiful. The little trimmings chocolate truffles you make made it look fantastic. And it tastes like chocolate mint , chip ice cream.

Speaker 1:

It just tastes like liquid chocolate mint, ice cream. It does, doesn't it? Yes, exactly. Yes. The key is you add not heavy whipping cream, but whipping cream because that's closest to ice cream,

Speaker 2:

You know, an afternoon of these I'd be a mess.

Speaker 1:

Oh yeah. Because these will get away from you very quickly because it's there because it's using low cures , not a heavy, strong vodka drinker. Yes. And it's a dessert drinker. So think about this. I remember as a kid, when this listener suggested this, I was like, Ugh , creamed a mint. My father used to pour in these really, really weird looking round glasses, those small ones, they were bigger than shots, but small round glasses. And he would pour a little bit of creating a minute . Yeah. And then just drink it in the evenings. And so I think as a kid, he gave me the taste a couple of times and I fell in love with it. As a kid, you don't know what alcohol is. And I fell in love with chocolate chip mint , ice cream. I could drink a lot of these. I, yes you can. And we used up your Korean a myth.

Speaker 2:

I've had that bottle for 50 years.

Speaker 1:

The bottle is super old actually. So it probably full when I got

Speaker 2:

It and we probably never drank huts . So it was probably just evaporated.

Speaker 3:

So it's crazy because look what I did with my finger, all I did was pour a little bit into the cap if it was left in the bottle and use my finger to do the edge of the glass and my fingers green now. Yeah. That's how green green that stuff is. Yeah. But it's lovely. And it's, and it's true mint versus Bailey's , which is different.

Speaker 2:

I finished mine. So it must've been good. Yeah. Okay. So today we're going to have part three of our seminar workshop. So when , uh, when I get that up, you'll get to enjoy part three. I wanted to remind everybody to get the book Gordon. Yes. For the kinky book club. Yeah. And so that's, what's coming up. Awesome.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to highlight what he just said. So just to clarify for everybody, if you're working with a couple and they come to you and there has been some maybe breach of trust or there's some, some, there was a terrible scene that went badly or you're working with one person that's saying, is this healthy? This is the way my dominant is treating me. Or this is the way that my submissive is treating me take out. Even that it's kink for a moment, just say, healthy relationships are built upon two people, respecting each other, communicating well valuing each other's wants, needs, limits, and boundaries. And that's the foundation for a healthy relationship, regardless of whether it's sexual or not sexual kinky sexual or not kinky sexual, and regardless of what you call it. And even if there is a master slave relationship, even if there is consensual non-consent, I recommend to my people, you have to have times where your submissive gets to, or your slave gets to safe word or gets to sometimes it's safe word . Sometimes it's red, you know, gets to say something like something's really not working. And we have to talk about it because people have trauma people what's arising for this submissive. Even if they mostly delight like 95% of the time, the submissive maybe wants to give away their power. And they want to be told what to do. Morning, noon, and night. There's still going to be times where they need to be able to advocate for themselves or advocate that something shifts so that they're not actually damaged or harmed in a way that's irrevocable. So I actually have been a dominant to have somebody who likes consensual non-consent who consider themselves a toy and a bimbo who loves to be used. And the way that they say it is , they'll say, I know that you want your toy to be, to , to not break. I want , I know that you want your, you know , submissive, you're a slave to, to still be functional. So I need to be able to tell you this. And I mean, I'm a yes to that, but that's the way they like it because it keeps them in the mindset of the slave or the mindset of the submissive. So there are ways to create language like a script in a way, a way to create a script. So when I'm in the submissive role, unless I'm a brat, I don't just come and say, well, I want a different, well, I don't want to do it like that. A brat Mick , but most submissives are slaves. Would it? They would say, you know, master or mistress, would it please you to know that I'm allergic to bell peppers? You know, before we you're asking me to eat this, would it please you to know that I'm allergic? So you have a different way of speaking, but there needs to be a way that the dominant who's holding the container is getting the information that they need to hold it well. And so if somebody says, I just want to do what I want to do when I want to do it as the dominant, I just want to, you know, my whole life, I give away too much and I've heard this and I think it's unhealthy. Okay. It was my dominance that said this in the rest of my life. I'm too generous. So, so the DSG container, the dominant submissive relationship is where I get my payback. And when I heard that, I was like, wow, that is so unhealthy. That is so unhealthy because it means you're, over-giving in life colluding with your own abuse to yourself, out in the world. And then you're also not allowing for the healthy dynamic between you and your submissive, because you have to take from them in a way that you're not willing to listen to them because you've over given over here. So people can be unhealthy in BDSM or they can be healthy and BDSM. They come to us ultimately to help, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a dominant, but how are you being a dominant? Why are you being a dusting wrong with being a submissive, but how are you being a submissive , being a submissive

Speaker 4:

From where I stand there's there's no place for being domineering. If you were to ask lady Petra , the difference between my relationship with her and her ex husband, I am dominant. Whereas he was domineering. It just didn't work. It wasn't her love language to be domineered right. Whereas in my experience with her, I want her to do certain things, but I want her to do them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do that . So I enroll her in doing things I want her to do so that she does them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do them . Does that make sense? So it's really about being present with her in a space that allows her, her agency. So there's a question here about your , about hard limits and soft limits and safe words. You know, we basically have two safe words, just very simple yellow. When she says yellow, that says, I like what we're doing, but you're doing it too aggressively, back off. And then red is stop what you're doing and that's it. And there's because we also believe in there's nothing wrong ever. She can stop it at any time and there's nothing wrong because what's so is it's past her tolerance. That's what so. And so that's really that, you know , she's never minimized, diminished, made nothing of humiliated or otherwise shamed for taking a safe word. That's just part of play

Speaker 3:

And, you know, Safford doesn't break his toys. Uh , one of the things that I want to highlight here too, and by the way, is that , um, I often will use a scale of one to 10. So some people use green. Sometimes they'll say green, meaning I want more, you know, you're doing something, but I want more of it. So they'll say green, yellow means maybe slow down or adjust in some way. And red means stop. But I like to use one to 10 with my , um, submissive. And I'll explain you, can't just say one to 10. You have to explain what one to 10 means to you. And, and so I'll say one means like one or two means I'm not doing anything. So if I'm like spanking you or doing something and you say one, I go give me a number and you say what? And you're like, you haven't even, you haven't even started. And then like five, four or five is like, perfect. Like whatever I'm doing, you could have , you would like it longer. And then if you say seven, I should maybe slow down or change it. And then if you're like nine, I should at least pause, you know, if not stop altogether. And then I find that the number is creates like a teasing. So I've done scenes with people where I'm like, give me a number. And I'm like, you know, smack in their bottom. You know, like my hand is hurting and they'll, they'll turn around and go to clearly more than a two, but they're there, but they want to play with their pain. They want, they want something to intensify. And so it it's, I find that the numbers can be sort of flirty too as well, where I don't find the same flirtation happening if I'm just doing, you know, green, yellow, red, but it , you have to explain no, as the dominant, I would say, this is what the scale means to me. And if you have a different way of using it, I need to know also these words that we throw around dominant submissive, top thought of pain , slot toy, this and that you always need to ask. What does that mean to you? And, and then assume you still don't know for a while , because I was doing a scene with somebody who said I'm a pain slot and then I'm in the scene with them. And luckily I'd done the number scale and I'm doing something that I don't even think is very intense at all. And like seven. And I'm like, well, you know, in my world, you're not a pain slot if that's a that , but I'm not saying that out loud, I'm just adjusting. I'm just going, whew , let me readjust what I was thinking of doing in the scene. And so her perception of herself was not accurate. And lady Petrus talking about that as well, that people will put these labels on themselves without actually being aware of how they might show up in the world without being aware of their own inner complexity and the label. You know, I'm a, this I'm a , that is the beginning of a much longer exploration and a much more nuanced physical conversation and , and verbal conversation. So you get to think about that. If it's a client and they're coming in and there's been some, I've had clients come to me because there've been like a break in trust or, you know, a trauma trigger has got off and now she doesn't want to be touched. Now she doesn't want to have sex and I'm, and I'm, I'm kind of debriefing what happened and what's going on. Then I'm in that moment, I'm going to be more compassionate and slower. Um, and kind of going really well. Let's breathe this in. You know what I think I hear you saying is that normally you're able to just jump into play and it's very fun, but this particular night, what I think I'm hearing is that the dominant, you were angry that you were angry, that you were frustrated. And what had this scene be different is even though you were doing the same thing, you were still tying her up, you were still flogging. You were still spanking this time. She was feeling the limbic system of your anger. So it wasn't what you did that was harmful. It was the energy that you brought. And would you say that that's accurate? You know, so what's , what's triggering for her is I'm going to imagine, I'm going to guess that she had some trauma in childhood, around being receiving the anger of her parents. Is that close? Yeah. Yeah. So let's just take a breath here. That's so many of us were raised in families with a domineering model and that it can feel almost normal to take out our rage on each other. And let's just pull that really tenderly. And I'm guessing that wasn't your intention. Oh, no, it wasn't. My intention is very different than somebody who's like, well, I'm the dominant and I just get too . And I'm like, you know, I just really want to hold tenderly that you probably were raised in a domineering model and that might feel normal. And could you see that if you allow that part of you to come forward and actually leave the relationship that it could break the relationship and to be healthy, she might have to leave. And is that actually what you would lie ? You know, so when I'm counseling, I'm , I'm doing it more spaciously, more slowly. I'm seeing if I can pop some awareness, you know, like what are you really committed to? Are you really committed to just getting your way? Or would you like something that's sustainable that delights

Speaker 1:

Both of you and, you know, percentage of human beings are narcissist . A percentage of them are socioecological, you know, and so you could run into those periodically, but with some people they just need to think it through. They actually haven't thought it through clearly. And so when we're gentle and compassionate and, you know, kind of highlight some of these concepts, they can understand and shift, but if I'm out at a party or just out in the world, I just drop it like a bomb. They're just like, what would you do about this? And I don't expect that it's necessarily going to be a long conversation. I just want them to start thinking yeah . Domineering. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Do you believe that that violating someone's consent is not a matter of how, but a matter of when within a scene and NC lab , that's a really great question. So first of all, everything that happens occurs inside a context of consent, everything , everything, and anytime consent is violated. Well, that, that brings a stop to a conversation. And we have to address it separately in the inside of the context of a scene, as the dominant, especially around things like bondage or impact play, or other things that push her in, in directions that we've agreed to go. I have to be alert to how she's behaving, how, how she's responding, what sorts of signs and signals is she giving me that she's comfortable or tolerant. And you know, it's possible that I'll exceed her tolerances. We've been together about two years. We haven't had a situation that's gone to a red yet. And that's because I'm very responsible for who I'm being and for who she's being in the context of a scene, because I don't want to break my toys. Okay . I don't want to, I've got to be, I'm going to be, you know, I live with her. She could take a , a knife to me in the middle of the night if she wanted to. Right . And so I've got to make sure that I don't violate her senseless .

Speaker 1:

So I'd like to add when I fall into subspace , at times , sometimes I speak in tongues. Like I'm not making words anymore. And I've told him in the past that I'm concerned that I'm in a place where I moved . I don't know how to say my safe word. Like I might not be able to say it. So him being able to watch my manner, I do develop primal type of behaviors. If it's getting too hard, you'll see me whining and try to almost animalistic, scoot away, naturally try to scoot , um , like a fight or flight type of thing. If I'm not able to get the words now, usually that's never for me at a red, you know, but it's probably , it could have been a yellow where I wasn't able to discern that like slow down or change the pace something.

Speaker 3:

But my body language is telling him where I'm at. And luckily he reads me really well. So that's how , and I want to allow her invite the difference between mistakes happen and someone who is , is disconnected, like a dominant who's disconnected, a dominant who's on the narcissistic spectrum, a dominant who's disassociative. And what that means is like in, like, I think what you're pointing to Casey is that sometimes, especially in the days where we could be at a public dungeon or a public play party, I literally, I, it didn't happen to me, but it happened to a friend of mine where she thought she had said her safe word, but the dungeon was so loud that the dominant didn't hear it. And then I ended up, sometimes I'm someone who's at these parties who ends up being mediating for these things when they happen. So then I was mediating to understand what happened and where the breakdown in communication was. And it was clear to me that he had no desire to hurt her, no desire to go past her safe word. He literally couldn't hear. And so sometimes , sometimes even at home, that could happen if you're playing music or something like that, you might not actually hear . And sometimes even if you're checking, you might miss a signal. So, especially in an early days of a relationship, when you're just getting to know someone and you don't know their body language as well, you don't know their limits as well or something called pickup place. So if you go to a public party and you meet someone newly, the scene that you have that night is considered pickup play. If you're having going to the dungeon or the party with your date, then you're seeming at that party with your date, but you meet someone new it's called pickup play. So those kinds of things can happen very easily and pick a play that aren't because somebody tried to hurt somebody else, but they just don't always know what to look for. And they're not erring on the side of caution. So, and then some countries and some parties include alcohol, some countries and some party don't, but the minute you start, including alcohol, the minute you including, you know, people might've smoked weed before they got there, et cetera, that can also alter how attuned they are to their submissive or how capable they are to speak. So can mistakes happen? Yes. But then how does the dominant respond to the mistake? Do they take ownership? Do they make reparation? Do they put a correction in place for the future or does the dominant blame the submissive? So candidate happen ? Yes. You know, in many couples or even it could happen over time. How does the person respond to that? Um, but then in their case, two years together, it hasn't happened. And you know, I, I hear that both of them are very conscious. They're careful, you know, staff or master is somebody who really wants to be that very attuned dominant, who really wants to make sure that he's connecting with the flow of energy and that he's really there with her, so to speak. And there are a number of people who go into BDSM as dominance , like BDSM because of the formulaic recipe, nature of them BDS out. So you could actually learn a ready around BDSM. You tie like this, or the average scene is like this. You cuff them to the cross and then you get out your soft, fluffy from it , and then you from it, their body. And then you get out your medium flogger. And then you flog the places that you can flog. And then you move from flogging to a cane or spanking, you know, or that edit like goes up in intensity. And then after you reach a certain point of intensity, then you bring it back down. The last thing you do is put the fur on them and then you take them down and you hug them. And some people love this idea because they find sex confusing, and they're not really in their bodies and they're not attuned to their own bodies or someone else's energy. So they love that there can be a recipe. I mean, how many men do you know, want a recipe for sec ? I want to know that if I did all the clearest to the right five times, she's going to go eat, eat, or if I squeezed her, her nipples, I guess three times that'll be exciting. They want a recipe. And there's a certain form of BDSM that will let people think that they can do a ride back to the matter is that, you know, a submissive isn't, you know, pasta, you know, they're not, they're not a thing.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. I have, I have the experience of where I heard a submissive read out on the scene. And so I stopped the seed and she was really upset that I stopped the scene. I definitely heard her read out. I definitely start the C and R agreement was, this was somebody who would come to my house to play once a week. And I would agreement wise if she read it out, we would stop and she would go home. And that would be the end of that. And it really was quite interesting because after that, we had a conversation about, should we change what red means? You know, because she didn't, she didn't mean for the scene to stop. She just wanted that. What is happening to stop? So communication is really the source of all kink. And I think that's really what's at stake is that if you're out of communication, things are gonna go wrong. If you're in communication, things can still go wrong, but you can fix them. And so I think that's important to have communication.

Speaker 3:

So I want to answer Emily's question about communicating when speaking may not be possible again, that could be music or allowed dungeon. There's , there's a lot of DS dynamics or people that are play partners that do think they have a backup system to speaking. So they have the submissive hold, a handkerchief or something along those lines, maybe they can't use their hands. So they put in their teeth, whatever. There's a million different combinations that you could choose where if it's dropped, that is a read out. That means stop because there are some positions people are put in where they're gag , they can't talk. Or the room's too loud. Some subs kind of almost go through a , a , what would be considered similar to it when people over-drink and have a blackout, but they're still moving and talking and moving around. And by having them hold something, they'll let go of it when they fall into that space. And then, you know, you might've lost the consciousness of that individual. So there's ways to put safety in place for that. Yeah . I'm going to highlight what he just said. So just to clarify by, for everybody, if you're working with a couple and they come to you and there has been some maybe breach of trust or there's some, some, there was a terrible scene that winter rock , you know , went , went badly or you're working with one person that's saying, is this healthy? This is the way my dominant is treating me. Or this is the way that my submissive is treating me. Take out even the kink for a moment, just say, healthy relationships are built upon two people, re respecting each other, communicating well, valuing each other's wants, needs, limits, and boundaries. And that's the foundation for a healthy relationship, regardless of whether it's sexual or not sexual kinky sexual or not kinky sexual, and regardless of what you call it. And even if there is a master slave relationship, even if there is consensual non-consent, I recommend to my people, you have to have times where are your submissive gets to, or your slave gets to safe word or gets to sometimes it's safe word. Sometimes it's red , you know, gets to say something like something's really not working. And we have to talk about it because people have trauma to what's arising for this submissive. Even if they mostly delight like 95% of the time, the submissive maybe wants to give away their power. And they want to be told what to do. Morning, noon, and night. There's still going to be times where they need to be able to advocate for themselves or advocate that something shift so that they're not actually damaged or harmed in a way that's irrevocable. So I actually have been a dominant to have somebody who likes central non-consent, who considers themselves a toy and a bimbo who loves to be used. And the way that they say it is , they'll say, I know that you want your toy to, you know , be to , to not break. I want, I know that you want your, you know , submissive you're slave to , to still be functional. So need to be able to tell you this. And I mean, I'm a yes to that, but that's the way they like to say it because it keeps them in the mindset of the slave or the mindset of the submissive. So there are ways to create the eight language, like a script in a way, a way to create a script. So when I'm in the submissive role, unless I'm a brat, I don't just come and say, well, I want a different, well, I don't want to do it like that. A brat Mick , but most submissives are slaves. Would it? They would say, you know, master or mistress, would it please you to know that , um , I'm allergic to bell peppers, you know , before we you're asking me to eat this, would it please you to know that I'm allergic? So you have a different way of speaking, but there needs to be a way that the dominant who's holding the container is getting the information that they need to hold it well. And so if somebody says, I just want to do what I want to do when I want to do it as the dominant, I just want to, you know, my whole life, I give away too much and I've heard this and I think it's unhealthy. Okay. It was my dominant that said this in the rest of my life. I'm too generous. So, so the dot , so the DSG container, the dog I'm going to in submissive relationship is where I get my payback. And when I heard that, I was like, wow, that is so unhealthy. That is so unhealthy because it means you're, over-giving in life colluding with your own abuse to yourself, out in the world. And then you're also acknowledged not allowing for the healthy dynamic between you and your submissive, because you have to take from them in a way that you're not willing to listen to them because you've over given over here. So people can be unhealthy in BDSM, or they can be healthy and BDSM. So we, we want, we, they come to us ultimately to help, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a dominant, but how are you being a dominant? Why are you being a dumb , there's nothing wrong with being a submissive, but how are you being a submissive? Are you being a submissive

Speaker 4:

From where I stand? There's there's no place for being domineering. If you were to ask lady Petra , the difference between my relationship with her and her ex husband, I am dominant, whereas he was domineering. It just didn't work. It wasn't her love language to be domineered right. Whereas, you know, in my experience with her, I want her to do certain things, but I want her to do them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do so. So I enroll her in doing things I want her to do so that she does them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do them. Does that make sense? So it's really about, it's really about, you know , being present with her in a space that allows her , her agency. So there's a question here about you about hard limits and soft limits and safe words. You know, we basically have two safe words, just very simple yellow. When she says yellow, that says, I like what we're doing, but you're doing it too aggressively, back off. And then red is stop what you're doing and that's it. And there's because we also believe, and there's nothing wrong ever. She can stop it at any time and there's nothing wrong because you know, it what's . So is it's past her tolerance. That's what so. And so that's really that, you know , she's never minimized , diminished, made nothing of humiliated or otherwise shamed for, for taking a safe word. That's just part of play

Speaker 3:

And, you know, Safford doesn't break his toys.

Speaker 4:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

Uh , one of the things that I want to highlight here too, and by the way, just want to say to all of you, I've been drinking water, please, please be sure to keep hydrated or moving a lot of energy. Some of us are hot parts of the world. So just ke keep hydrated, keep fed. There's a lot that gets stirred here is that , um, I often will use a scale of one to 10. So some people use green. Sometimes they'll say green, meaning I want more, you know, you're doing something, but I want more of it. So they'll say green, yellow means maybe slow down or adjust in some way. And red means stop. But I like to use one to 10 with my , um , submissives. And I'll explain you, can't just say one to 10. You have to explain what one to 10 means to you. And , uh, and so I'll say one means like one or two means I'm not doing anything. So if I'm like spanking you or doing something and you say one, I go give me a number and you say what? And you're like, you haven't even, you haven't even started it. And then like five, four or five is like, perfect. Like whatever I'm doing, you could have , you would like it longer. And then if you say seven and I should maybe slow down or change it. And then if you're like nine, I should at least pause, you know, if not stop altogether. And then I find that the number is creates like a teasing. So I've done scenes with people where I'm like, give me a number. And I'm like, you know , smacking their bottom. You know, like my hand is hurting and they'll, they'll turn around and go to clearly more than a two, but they're , but they're , but they want to play with their pain. They want, they want something to intensify. And so it it's it . I find that the numbers can be sort of flirty too as well, where I don't find the same flirtation happening if I'm just doing, you know, green, yellow, red, but it, you have to explain, you know, as the dominant, I would say, this is what the scale means to me. And if you have a different way of using it, I need to know also these words that we throw around dominant submissive, top thought of pain , slot , um, toy, this and that you always need to ask. What is that mean to you? And, and then assume you still don't know for a while , because I was doing a scene with somebody who said, I'm a pain slot, and then I'm in the scene with them. And luckily I'd done the number scale and I'm doing something that I don't even think is very intense at all. And she's like seven. And I'm like, well, you know, in my world, you're not a pain slot if that's a summit , but I'm not saying that out loud, I'm just adjusting. I'm just going, woo . Let me readjust what I was thinking of doing in the scene. And so her perception of herself was not accurate. And lady Petras talking about that as well, that people will put these labels on themselves without actually being aware of how they might show up in the world without being aware of their own inner complexity and the, the label, you know, I'm a, this I'm in that is the beginning of a much longer exploration and a much more nuanced physical conversation and verbal conversation

Speaker 6:

Say that a , a label is just to hold up for a conversation. Yeah , yeah.

Speaker 3:

And so if somebody comes and says, I'm a dominant, you know, and I, in a session or even in a community, then I might say, Oh, what kind of dominant are you? You know, what delights you in being a dominant? And they're like, well, I just like to, you know, take charge and, and, you know, and I, I like to be totally in charge and, and, you know, and I, I hated if my submissive talks back, you know, and if I'm trying to educate, which I, I believe in educating everywhere. So if you're next to me on a plane, I'm educating you. If you're next to me in a dungeon, I'm educating you , you know , personally, I'm educating every conversation is a , is like a fart in the air. It's just taking up space and means nothing. It's here, it's gone. It means nothing. Or every conversation everywhere in the world, including social media is an opportunity to inspire in live and educate and transform the world. So I'm very conscious of every moment of conversation and what is my intention in it and not to waste my time on earth. I mean, every now and then just the light conversation for the sake of, you know, there's a sale at Macy's, you know, might be fine, but I don't want my whole conversation to just be heir , to just be fluff. I want to change the world before I die. So as I give my as much a chance of it, so if I'm in a dungeon and somebody is like, Oh, I just like to do it because I like to do it. I might say, Oh, you know, and, and , um , if that's, when , if that, you know, you're submissive has trauma, or what if they ha you know, 60% of the population are raised in families or environments with severe emotional, physical sexual, and, or spiritual abuse and trauma, you know, how , what would you do about that? And they've just, they might look really shocked and be like, what do you mean? And I'm like, well, typically speaking, that's probably going to come up. So, you know, what's your, what's your plan for that? So I just drop these things like everywhere. I just drop these. And if the person can't answer, they can't answer, but at least they're starting to think about it. And that could be at a party. I don't, I don't waste my time on the surface. I really don't. And , um, for me, it's kind of a waste. And , um , so you get to think about that. If it's a client and they're coming in and there's been some, I've had clients come to me because there've been like a break in trust, or, you know, a trauma trigger has got off, and now she doesn't want to be touched. Now, she doesn't want to have sex. And I'm, and I'm , I'm kind of debriefing what happened and what's going on. Then I'm in that moment, I'm probably going to be more compassionate and slower , um , and kind of going really well. Let's breathe this in. You know what I think I hear you saying is that norm Molly , you're able to just jump into , um, play. And it's very fun that this particular night, what I'm think I'm hearing is that the dumb minute , you were angry, that you were angry, that you were frustrated. And what had this scene be different is even though you were doing the same thing, you were still tying her up, you were still flogging. You were still spanking this time. She was feeling the limbic system of your anger. So it wasn't what you did that was harmed fault . It was the energy that you brought. And would you say that that's accurate?

Speaker 7:

No . So what's, what's triggering for her,

Speaker 3:

Or as I'm going to imagine, I'm going to guess that she had some trauma in childhood, around being, you know, receiving the anger of her parents. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah. So let's just take a breath here. So many of us were raised in families with a domineering model and that it can feel almost normal to take out our rage on each other. Let's just hold that really tenderly, you know , I'm guessing that wasn't your intention. Oh, no, it wasn't . My intention is very different than somebody who's like, well, I'm the dominant and I just get too . And I'm like, you know, I just really want to hold tenderly that you probably were raised in a domineering model and that might feel normal. And could you see that if you allow that part of you to come forward and, and actually leave the relationship chip that it could break the relationship and to be healthy, she might have to leave. And is that actually what you would like? You know, so when I'm counseling, I'm , I'm doing it more spaciously, more slowly. I'm seeing if I can pop some awareness, you know, like, what are you really committed to be really committed to just getting your way? Or would you like something that's sustainable that delights both of you and, you know, percentage of human beings are narcissist . A percentage of them are sociopath , illogical, you know? And so you could run into those periodically, but with some people, they just need to think it through. They actually haven't thought it through clearly. And so when we're gentle and compassionate and, you know, kind of highlight some of these concepts, they can understand and shift, but it , if I'm out at a party or just out in the world, I just drop it like a bomb. They're just like, what would you do about this? And I don't expect that it's necessarily going to be a long conversation station. I just want them to start thinking. So , um ,

Speaker 4:

Yeah. Casey

Speaker 3:

Domineering. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

Do you believe that that violating someone's consent is , is not a matter of how, but a matter of when within a scene and, and see , that's a really great question. So first of all, everything that happens occurs inside a context of consent, everything, everything, and anytime consent is violated. Well, that, that, that brings a stop to a conversation. And we have to address it separately in the inside of the context of a scene, as the dominant, especially around things like bondage or impact play, or other things that push her in, in directions that we've agreed to go. I have to be alert to how she's behaving, how, how she's responding. What, what sorts of signs and signals is she giving me that she's comfortable or tolerant, and, you know, it's possible that I'll exceed her tolerances. We've been together about two years. We haven't had a situation that's gone to a red yet. And that's because I'm like very for who I'm being and for who she's being in the context of a scene, because I don't want to break my toys. Okay . I don't want to, I've got to be, I'm going to be , you know, I live with her. She could take a knife to me in the middle of the night if she wanted to. Right . And so I've got to make sure that I don't violate her , um, sense of what's valuable to her .

Speaker 3:

Also, I'd like to add , um, when I fall into subspace, at times , sometimes I speak in tongues. Like I'm not making words anymore. And I've told him in the past that I'm concerned that I'm in a place where I may , I don't know how to say my safe word. Like I might not be able to say it. So him being able to watch my manner, I do develop primal type of behaviors. If it's getting too hard, you'll see me whining and try to almost animalistic, scoot away, naturally try to scoot , um , like a fight or flight type of thing. If I'm not able to get the words now, usually that's never for me at a red, you know, but it's probably , it could have been a yellow where I wasn't able to discern that like slow down or change the pace or something. Um, but my body language is telling him where I'm at. And luckily he reads me really well. So that's helpful. And I want to allow him bite the difference between the stakes happen. Yeah . And someone who is , is disconnected like a dominant, who's disconnected, a dominant who's on the narcissistic spectrum, a de prominent who's disassociative. And what that means is like, in, like, I think what you're pointing to Casey is that sometimes, especially in the days where we could be at a public dungeon or a public play party, I literally, I, it didn't happen to me, but it happened to a friend of mine where she thought she had said her safe, or she did say her safe word, but the dungeon was so loud that the dominant didn't hear it. And then I ended up, sometimes I'm someone who's at these parties who ends up being mediating for these things when they happen. So then I was mediating to understand what happened and where the breakdown in communication was. And it was clear to me that he had no desire to hurt her, no desire to go past her safe word. He literally couldn't hear. And so sometimes something like that can happen sometimes even at home that could happen. If you're playing music or something like that, you might not actually hear . And sometimes even if you're checking, you might not, you might miss a signal. So, especially in an early days of a relationship, when you're just getting to know someone and you don't know their body language as well, you don't know their limits as well or something called pickup place . So if you go to a public party and you meet someone newly, the scene that you have that night is considered pickup play. If you're having going to the dungeon or the party with your date, then you're, seening at that party with your date. But you meet someone new it's called pickup play. So those kinds of things can happen very easily and pick a play that aren't because somebody's trying to hurt somebody else, but they just don't always know what to look for. And they're not erring on the side of caution. So, and then some countries, and some parties include alcohol, some countries and some parties don't , but the minute you start, including alcohol, the minute you including, you know, people might've smoked weed before they got there, et cetera, that can also alter how attuned they are to their submissive or how capable they are to speak. So can mistakes happen? Yes. But then how does the dominant respond to the mistake? Do they take ownership? Do they make reparation? Do they put a correction in place for the future or does the dominant blame the submissive? So can it happen? Yes. You know, in many couples or even in play, it could happen over time. How does the person who, you know, respond to that? Um, but then in their case, two years together, it hasn't happened. And, you know, I, I hear that both of them are very conscious. They're careful. You know, staff are master is somebody who really wants to be that very attuned dominant, who really wants to make sure that he's connecting with the flow of energy and that he he's really there with her, so to speak. And there are a number of people who go into BDSM as dominant , like BDSM because of the formulaic recipe, nature of some BDS out . So you can actually learn a recipe around BDSM. You tie like this, or the average scene is like this. You cut them to the cross and then you get out your soft, fluffy from it, and then you from it, their body. And then you get out your medium flogger. And then you flog the places that you can flog . And then you move from flogging to a cane or spanking, you know , or that edit like goes up in intensity. And then after you reach a certain point of intensity, then you bring it back down. The last thing you do is put the fur on them and then you take them down and you hug them. And some people love this idea because they find sex confusing, and they're not really in their bodies and they're not attuned to their own bodies or someone else's energy. So they love that there can be a recipe. I mean, how many men do, you know, want a recipe for sex? They want a recipe. And there's a certain form of BDSM that will let people think that they can do a recipe back to the matter is that, you know, a submissive isn't possible .

Speaker 5:

Yeah. So I have the experience of where I heard a submissive read out on the scene. And so I stopped seed and she was really upset that I stopped the scene . I definitely heard her read out. I definitely start the seed . Our agreement was, this was somebody who would come to my house to play once a week and out agreement wise. If she read it out, we would stop and she would go home. And that would be the end of that. And it really was quite interesting because after that, we had a conversation about, should we change what red means? You know, because she didn't, she didn't mean for the scene to stop. She just wanted that what is happening to stop? So communication is really the source of all kink. And I think that's really what's at stake is that if you're out of communication, things are going to go wrong. If you're in communication, things can still go wrong, but you can fix them. And so I think that's important to have communication.

Speaker 1:

So I want to answer Emily's question about communicating when speaking may not be possible again, that could be music or allowed dungeon. There's a lot of DS dynamics or people that are play partners that do think they have a backup system to speaking. So they have the submissive hold, a handkerchief or something along those lines, maybe they can't use their hands. So they put in their teeth, whatever. There's a million different combinations that you could choose where if it's dropped, that is a read out. That means stop because there are some positions that people are put in where they're gag, they can't talk, or the room's too loud, or some subs kind of almost go through a , a , what would be considered similar to it when people over-drink and have a blackout, but they're still moving and talking and moving around. And by having them hold something, they'll let go of it when they fall into that space. And then, you know, you might've lost the consciousness of that individual. So there's ways to put safety in place for that.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, this is, this is a relationship first. And I think that in our case, we've made King part of our sexual dynamic black , our sexual dynamic is a very kinky sexual dynamic, but our , our broader dynamic exists ongoingly. And that's why we have such a high standard for communication, because it's not just that we're in a dynamic during the sexual experience that we definitely are. Our sex is very kinky. So , so we really have to be attuned to what we're up to in the context of our sexual partnership. The rest of our relationship is really just a relationship, but it has a framework of a DS dynamic. And we were just being responsible about creating each other and being responsible to each other ongoingly in just our regular relationship. That goes well beyond our sexual relationship . So the question is pony as a type of pretending or role play as an animal, this is a really interesting thing. You can find a whole subculture of it lives alongside latex or leather or leather, but definitely on its own. There's a whole subculture of people play at being horses and people who play a training horses, and they have show ponies and they have my pretty pony, pretty ponies ponies, a pull carts , and their ponies are carry people. And they have races. Sometimes it's sexual. Sometimes it's not very often, it's not. And so, you know, pony play, but I've a pet play as well. There are , there is pet play in the world of sexuality. So there is pawn . You play that sexual, there is Peck play, that's sexual, but a lot of pony play isn't sexual.

Speaker 3:

It's getting all the cool outfits and pretending you're a horse, the huge area when we get into animal role play and animal role play with owners. So there's Fox there's Fox play and there's Fox hunts. So before COVID here in the Bay area, it was people would come from all over the world to stage a Fox hunt. And so there would be hunters and the foxes there would there's ponies that pull carts with, you know , the kind of like with the ponies, with the, with the big, like feathers in their hair. And they have a blood plug that looks like a tail there's there's dogs, there's kitties , there's rabbits, there's all kinds of pets and different types of pets and different types of pet owners. And so there can be the, you know, the more distinct pet owner there could be the really loving pet owner. There could be more loving, nurturing. There could be a pet owner that's like training. You know, I'm going to train you and show you off. So there's all different types of this. And I'm going to ask you a question to see if you agree with this is my belief more often than not is the currency or the payment that submissives get by giving their submission, which could be service, which could be sexual, which could be any number of things that the payment, they get his attention. And then it's what kind of attention do they want? Do they want denigration attention? Do they want pain attention? Do they want approval attention? Do they want being shown off attention? Do they want being dressed up attention? Do they want sexual attention? Do they want pleasure? Attention? I'm going to ask them to currency to submissive receives his attention.

Speaker 5:

I do think that in the case of our dynamic, that in her case, just being with me, but if I go on an errand in the car and the choices, she can stay here and continue working or should come with me for a drive in the car, she'll choose to drive in the car. Cause she likes just being with me, right? So her submission, it's really deeper than seeking attention. If I'm on the couch, watching TV, she'll come and curl up on the couch and watch TV. And she might not even watch. She may just sleep, you know , with her head on my lap. But it's really about the experience of connecting more than it is about getting attention. That's not to say that what you're proposing is inaccurate to in the main, in this case, it's just her nature to want to be with.

Speaker 3:

And is that, do you consider in the inner aspect model where there's different parts of us, you consider that that's from your adult, you consider that

Speaker 1:

From maybe a part of you that's more teen romantic. Like one of the things I discovered in my submission is that my submissive part of my submission felt very like this very romantic teenager. That was like my dominance dreamy . I , yeah. See, I don't like adoring him and want to be with him like all the time. So I don't, I don't know if that's it. I know that I came out of a 30 year marriage where I never held hands. There was no sitting on the couch together. So I was probably starving for things that people might've gotten earlier on in relationship. But my submission of like, even if I look at my submission of service, I mean, this is hardwired into me. I have been doing that kind of service for people. My family, since I was like three or four, like I was the weird kid that went and helped mom unload the dryer and match all the socks, but not just match them like Annalee match them and make sure that they're just perfect. And you know, that's just kind of how I've been my whole life. And I do that for all the people I come in contact with. And of course with my dominant, I love it because it's a way to ease things he can so he can do other things. But I actually liked doing it. I know it sounds really weird, but it's just the way I'm wired. But since I was real little so to find a partner who appreciates that in me and lets me show that cause , which is my love language, lets me show that as my love language, how powerful is that? That's extremely powerful. It's not judged. I don't feel like I'm trying to be like 1950s Beaver Cleaver. That's not it. This is absolutely wired into me. And it's a way I express my through actions, my love and gift for other people. Beautiful. And what I, what I think I hear you saying is that you , uh , when you look back on who you are in BDSM or your, your identity is kinky, that you look all the way back to three and that you see this as like, you know , like somebody might say, Oh, I discovered that I was gay when I was three or five. Right. I discovered that I was an artist at five. It's like you look back at that and say, I discovered now when I look back with the lens that I have, I just, I see that as a core identity is that yeah , it's the way I contribute in service yet. Beautiful. And for you suffer master, when you look back on, when you like now with the lens of BDSM, where do you see it starting in your life? Let's do it real quick.

Speaker 5:

So I grew up in South Africa and there was corporal punishment in the classroom. And there was a girl that I was flirting with who got into trouble. And she went to the front of the room and got cane . And she was the only girl who got caned in my experience. And I had a raging hard-on as a result. And she used to sit on my foot and she did. And she had a massive orgasm. And that was when I was like 17, 16, 17 in high school when I was 60 . And I went to Germany with a gymnastics team, we went to Berlin, which is the King center of the world. And I've got some German kink porn. And I had this magazine that I read that I just really identified with the characters. It involves sadomasochism , it involved anal Saxenda , motor sports and involved caning , and about all the things that, that I've always enjoyed emotionally. And I've literally masturbated on that magazine for like 30 years. And now, now I have that experience in myself here throughout my marriage. My wife was a preacher's kid. She was extremely vanilla. Sex was very prudish and it was really just a struggle to let be in that relationship and be so unfulfilled. And I always was looking in the back pages to find kinky women to get with. And if when we got divorced, I was like, you know what? I'm not going to pretend any longer. I'm just gonna put that front and center and I'm going to make this my purpose of existence. And I'm going to find somebody with whom I'm aligned sexually. And my life's going to work from that point. And so for me, it just started really early and I've been on a search ever since. And now that we're together, I literally have found somebody with whom I'm aligned in every possible respect, both emotionally, physically, spiritually, sexually.

Speaker 1:

And how did you meet?

Speaker 5:

I created a , a seeking document that I posted on FetLife and the personals and I put it on my friend page and she was searching.

Speaker 1:

You have to hear how I was searching. Cause I was dedicated to this. I had played online with several dominance online that I was actually very like we were together online for a year and a half, but there was no chance of meeting it. Basically. I kept asking about that there was no chance of meeting. I was willing to relocate. He wasn't willing to progress further because he was in a marriage and it just didn't seem like it was going to work. And I was like, I'm not going to do this. This is bullshit. Plus I had outgrown, whatever you can do online, I'd already done all the things you can do. And I was like, okay, now the next part is to touch somebody to have a real person. So I went on FetLife also and I systematically started at the A's filtered by dominance and people that were in Seattle. And I went and read only thereabouts. I didn't look at any pictures because I'm a dummy sexual. I read thereabouts to see if they could even speak and just went through hundreds of them and got to like, I don't know, F and uh, I started getting tired, cause this is going, I was going on weeks doing this, you know? And something just told me one night I was like, this is stupid. I'm just going to start at the end of the alphabet. I went to Z, which was ridiculous. Y w all those were bad letters. I finally get to S and luckily he was S a, so it's early in the SS , cause I was ready to stop. I was, I had done this for awhile for awhile , and I read his about, and it was as if he had written it for me. Like I read it. And I was like, no, I gotta read that again. I think I read it four or five times in one, one time after another thinking, this is me. Like, I can't, this is me. And then of course, then I started to research him. I looked at his pictures and I saw that he had a submissive. And so then my, I shifted my thinking and thought, okay, he's taken. But what he is is someone that speaks to me and probably can get some

Speaker 3:

Real good answers about how to find a dominant from him. So that's how the conversation started. I was just asking him questions about the lifestyle and how I might be able to find someone, myself. And then she reached out to me and we started chatting and our chats led eventually to a meeting. And then, you know , life intervened. I went away for a month. She went away for awhile when Matt came back and he was, we'd been chatting the whole time by a text. But when I came back, we got together for another face to face meeting. And then on a gradient, we sort of started to get to a point where we would agree to play. So it took that took like seven months that cycle. And it was really a way of getting clear about what I was asking for or what she was seeking and what I was seeking when I was asking for I'm going to highlight what he just said. So just to clarify for everybody, if you're working with a couple and they come to you and there has been some maybe breach of trust or there's some, some, there was a terrible scene at winter rock. You know , when it went badly or you're working with one person that's saying, is this healthy, this is the way my dominant is treating me. Or this is the way my submissive is treating me. Take out. Even that it's kink for a moment, just say, healthy relationships are built upon two people, re respecting each other, communicating well valuing each other's wants, needs, limits, and boundaries. And that's the foundation for healthy relationship, regardless of whether it's sexual or not sexual kinky sexual or not kinky sexual, and regardless of what you call it. And even if there is a master slave relationship, even if there is consensual non-consent, I recommend to my people, you have to have times where are your submissive gets to, or your slave gets to safe word or gets to sometimes it's safe word . Sometimes it's red , you know, gets to say something like something's really not working. And we have to talk about it because people have trauma to what's arising for this submissive. Even if they mostly delight like 95% of the time, the submissive maybe wants to give away their power. And they want to be told what to do. Morning, noon, and night. There's still going to be times where they need to be able to advocate for themselves or advocate that something shift so that they're not actually damaged or harmed in a way that's irrevocable. So I actually have been a dominant to have somebody who likes central non-consent, who considers themselves a toy and a bimbo who loves to be used. And the way that they say it is, they'll say, I know that you want your toy to, you know, be to not break. I want , I know that you want your submissive, your slave to still be functional. So I need to be able to tell you this. And I mean , I'm a yes to that, but that's the way they like to say it because it keeps them in the mindset of the slave or the mindset of the submissive. So there are ways to create eight language, like a script in a way, a way to create a script. So when I'm in the submissive role, unless I'm a brat, I don't just come and say, well, I want a different, well, I don't want to do it like that. A brat Mick , but most submissives are slaves. Would it? They would say, you know, master or mistress, would it please you to know that , um , I'm allergic to bell peppers, you know, before we you're asking me to eat this, would it please you to know that I'm allergic? So you have a different way of speaking, but there needs to be a way that the dominant who's holding the container is getting the information that they need to hold it well. And so if somebody says, I just want to do what I want to do when I want to do it as the dominant, I just want to, you know, my whole life, I give away too much and I've heard this and I think it's unhealthy. Okay. It was my dominance that said this in the rest of my life. I'm too generous. So, so the dot , so the DSG container, the doc I'm an in submissive relationship is where I get my payback. And when I heard that, I was like, wow, that is so unhealthy. That is so unhealthy because it means you're, over-giving in life colluding with your own abuse to yourself, out in the world. And then you're also acknowledged not allowing for the healthy dynamic between you and your submissive, because you have to take from them in a way that you're not willing to listen to them because you've over given over here. So people can be unhealthy in BDSM or they can be healthy and BDSM. So we, we want, we, they come to us ultimately to help, you know, there's nothing wrong with being a dominant, but how are you being a dominant? Why are you being a , yeah , there's nothing wrong with being a submissive, but how are you being a submissive? Are you being as submissive

Speaker 4:

From where I stand? There's there's no place for being domineering. If you were to ask lady Petra, the difference between my relationship with her and her ex husband, I am dominant, whereas he was domineering. It just didn't work. It wasn't her love language to be domineered right. Whereas, you know, in experience with her, I want her to do certain things, but I want her to do them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do that . So, so I enroll her in doing things I want her to do so that she does them because she wants to do them. Not because I want her to do them . Does that make sense? So it's really about, it's really about, you know, being present with her in a space that allows her , her agency. So there's a question here about your , about hard limits and soft limits and safe words. You know, we basically have two safe words, just very simple yellow. When she says yellow, that says, I like what we're doing, but you're doing a too aggressively back off, and then red is stop what you're doing and that's it. And there's because we also believe, and there's nothing wrong ever. She can stop it at any time and there's nothing wrong because you know, it what's . So is it's past her tolerance. That's what so . And so that's really that, you know , she's never minimized, diminished, made nothing of humiliated or otherwise shamed for, for taking a safe word. That's just part of play

Speaker 1:

And, you know, Safra doesn't break his toys.

Speaker 4:

Yeah. And how did you meet? Well, I created a , um, a seeking document that I posted on fat life and the personals, and I put it on my friend page and she was searching. Okay .

Speaker 1:

Now you have to hear how I was searching. Cause I was dedicated to this. I had played online with several dominance online that I was actually very like, we were together online for a year and a half. Um, but there was no chance of meeting it. Basically. I kept asking about that there was no chance of meeting. I was willing to relocate. He wasn't willing to progress further because he was in a marriage and it just didn't seem like it was gonna work. And I was like, I'm not going to do this. This is bullshit. Plus I had outgrown, whatever you can do online, I'd already done all the things you can do. And I was like, okay, now the next part is to touch somebody to have a real person. Um, so I went on FetLife also and I systematically started at the A's and S and you know , filtered by dominance and people that were in Seattle. And I went and read only thereabouts. I didn't look at any pictures because I'm a dummy sexual. I read thereabouts to see if they could even speak and just went through hundreds of them and got to like, I don't know, F and , uh, I started getting tired , cause this is going, I was going on weeks doing this, you know, and something just told me one night, I was like, this is stupid. I'm just going to start at the end of the alphabet. I went to Z, which was ridiculous. Y w all those were bad letters. I finally get to S and luckily he was S a, so it was early in the SS , cause I was ready to stop. I was, I had done this for awhile , for awhile . And , um, I read his about, and it was as if he had written it for me, like I read it. And I was like, no, I gotta read that again. I think I read it four or five times in one, one time after another thinking, this is me. Like, I can't, this is me. And then of course, then I started to research him. I looked at his, then I started looking at his pictures and I saw that he had a submissive. And so then my, I shifted my thinking and thought, okay, he's taken. But what he is is someone that speaks to me and I probably can get some real good answers about how to find a dominant from him. So that's how the conversation started. I was just asking him questions about the lifestyle and how I might be able to find someone, myself.

Speaker 5:

Yeah. And then she reached out to me and we started chatting and our chats led eventually to a meeting. And then, you know, life intervened. I went away for a month. She went away for awhile . And when we come in and be , when I came back and we was, we'd been chatting the whole time by a text. But when I came back, we got together for another face to face meeting. And then on a gradient, we sort of started to get to a point where we would agree to play. So it took, that took like seven months that cycle. And it was really, it was really a way of , um, getting clear about what I was asking for what she was seeking and what I was seeking when I was asking,

Speaker 1:

I love it. I love it. You've spent so much time talking and really unpacking and like so beautiful. You, you know, it's just like no wonder you have such a lovely and loving relationship. Um, any, you know what, I , we only have a couple minutes left. So what I would love is if some of our , uh ,

Speaker 5:

The students, if we could give them an appreciation, something, anything stood out for you and Ali , like I came into this kin certification with so many kind of questions and like misconceptions and doubts, like how could this really work? But like Francesca said , you guys have really been like the model couple that really going away with a, just like a renewed sense of like, wow, this can be, it can be really, really healthy and beautiful as long , long as, you know , people do what you guys are doing. And I work with a lot of couples and, you know, all of the, like, just like the foundations that you talked about, like affinity and communication, like none of the couples that I work with have that, you know, and you know, they're not kinky or any of that stuff. So it's just, it's just amazing. I'm like so grateful to have been able to have heard you guys and you guys are like a really awesome couple. Thanks .

Speaker 1:

Hi,

Speaker 5:

The quality of your relationship, how you both a voice

Speaker 3:

Individually and together, the unity shows it's very transparent. It just flows. The two of you, just the energy flows , the connection, the gratitude for each other, and you're holding space at all times. There's no separation between the two you're just together in harmony. That was beautiful. Thank you. Thank you. One thing that really struck out for me was when you discussed no space allowed , because that always, it sounded so antithetical to what we always learn , especially as counselors and relationships give each other space, you know, whatever. But when you described it, it made perfect sense that, you know, by not talking, you're not going to work through the issues of what's going on. So I , that really, to me, I really appreciate it .

Speaker 5:

You're welcome for me. That's not very important, you know, it's, it's the thing that if I would say, there's one thing that, there's one thing that makes our relationship

Speaker 3:

That you guys talked about, you know, you don't forget to be grateful about the children and the connection. It was, it was really beautiful. Really nice, good luck to you guys. You know, Laurie , you know , Emily says, I appreciate the communication and respect you share for each other. The openness you've brought to the experience and your willingness to share with us. And Nicole said, I absolutely enjoy their openness to their lifestyle, how to better form a relationship through less space. It helped me to better understand the emotions involved in their relationship. How would you like them to connect to you if they want to? And they can come up with this ,

Speaker 5:

Uh, on fat life easily enough if you're on fat life at Safa master and at lady underscore Petra, and you connect by email Safir [email protected] , either one of those

Speaker 3:

And just as a clinicians and people in the field, working with people that might be going through the week , do a daily podcast that actually approaches lots of these topics straight on every single day cast is the kinky cocktail hour. Yeah. And I will definitely put this in their notes, lady, Petra and saffron master. Is there anything that you want to let them know as clinicians? Like what would you want clinicians to know? Or what do you want them to think about? Well , I would say they have six months that they're learning.

Speaker 5:

I would , you can listen for people speaking about their kinks from a, from a place where they're not speaking about, they speak about where they live in the dominance submission scale based on how they speak. And there's an opportunity to give them access to resources, to expand their curiosity about those things. Because it's quite true that if I had had the opportunity to speak with my ex wife about these things, we might still have had a relationship, right. But because we couldn't speak about them because they were taboo that became really source of space. That was insurmountable. I think that if you just have the point of view, that everybody's somewhere on the dominance and submission space, and there are somewhere on the King space and then listen from that place, then it gives you an opportunity to like give them resources, to expand their curiosity and understanding. And I think that'll help people.

Speaker 1:

And in regardless of their kink, it , this all breaks down. And we might say it was because they're kinky or they're whatever, but it's not, this is all about communication. It's all healthy communication, no matter if they're vanilla or kink stirs . I do know that when I was going through my divorce before I was starting to get together with Safir , I actually sought out out a , a psychologist who was kink friendly, happened to be a dominant. And I didn't know how that would go, but I wanted to be able to talk, frankly, with that clinician about this dynamic that I was willing to create and what would be considered safe going into that kind of situation and what I , cause I had no other information. And so you could find yourself in a position where you're actually through your education of kink and the, and the, and the ideas behind dominance and submissive to be able to provide someone who's new or trying to explore this information or resources so they can be educated and make safe decisions. And he did, he provided me reading things to read things, to consider questions and discussions, to have with Safir things, to ask myself, it was very helpful, but it was, I rarely talked about kink. I rarely talked about what I was actually doing. He just knew I was a submissive and I was seeking a dominant, but most of the communication was about how to communicate.

Speaker 5:

Yeah . Yeah. I think if you ask us what our really is, our Cancun really is communication. That's really our kink . Yeah .

Speaker 1:

I love it. I love it so hard. Well, I love you. I'm glad I got to spend more time with you and thank you so much for dedicating your afternoon to us. You've made such a difference all around the world already with your podcast . And now with this other amazing group of students right here , that's it for today, you can find us on your favorite podcast directory. We also have an RSS fee. If you're interested in online coaching for Kingston or online domination, you can visit our Patrion website at lady Petra playground. And if you're having comments or suggestions or drink ideas for our podcast , you can email [email protected]mail.com . That's it.

Speaker 6:

Cheers.