{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":5.4,"endTime":7.98,"body":"Welcome to questions from"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":5.4,"endTime":7.98,"body":"the closet. I'm Ben Schilaty."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":8.13,"endTime":9.15,"body":"And I am Charlie bird."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":9.45,"endTime":11.76,"body":"Each episode we discuss a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":9.45,"endTime":11.76,"body":"question that we commonly get"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.76,"endTime":13.83,"body":"asked as LGBTQ Latter Day"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.76,"endTime":13.83,"body":"Saints."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.22,"endTime":16.23,"body":"We're not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.22,"endTime":16.23,"body":"answer this question or come to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.23,"endTime":19.62,"body":"a general consensus, but simply"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.23,"endTime":19.62,"body":"sharing our perspectives. The"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":19.62,"endTime":22.2,"body":"question that we're going to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":19.62,"endTime":22.2,"body":"discuss today is should I come"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":22.2,"endTime":22.53,"body":"out?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":23.71,"endTime":25.99,"body":"So Charlie and I are not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":23.71,"endTime":25.99,"body":"terribly diverse, and we share"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":25.99,"endTime":28.75,"body":"many opinions and life"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":25.99,"endTime":28.75,"body":"experiences. For example, we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":28.75,"endTime":30.43,"body":"both we both speak Spanish."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":30.55,"endTime":33.07,"body":"And we actually both"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":30.55,"endTime":33.07,"body":"have Spanish degrees from the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":33.07,"endTime":33.97,"body":"same university."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":33.97,"endTime":34.6,"body":"That's true."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":34.63,"endTime":37.21,"body":"Yeah. But there are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":34.63,"endTime":37.21,"body":"some pretty big differences. For"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":37.21,"endTime":40.51,"body":"example, Ben served his mission"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":37.21,"endTime":40.51,"body":"in Mexico."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":40.6,"endTime":42.73,"body":"And Charlie served his"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":40.6,"endTime":42.73,"body":"mission in a place that used to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":42.73,"endTime":43.42,"body":"be Mexico."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":43.72,"endTime":44.83,"body":"Good old California."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":45.28,"endTime":47.32,"body":"So we would like to provide"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":45.28,"endTime":47.32,"body":"a variety of voices and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.32,"endTime":49.78,"body":"perspectives. So today, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.32,"endTime":49.78,"body":"joined by Travis."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":50.37,"endTime":50.76,"body":"Hi, guys."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":51.0,"endTime":53.4,"body":"So tell us a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":51.0,"endTime":53.4,"body":"about yourself, Travis?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":53.91,"endTime":56.67,"body":"Okay, guys. I speak"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":53.91,"endTime":56.67,"body":"Spanish too. Sorry I don't have"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":56.67,"endTime":57.48,"body":"a degree in Spanish."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":57.69,"endTime":58.2,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":58.23,"endTime":63.27,"body":"There's the diversity."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":58.23,"endTime":63.27,"body":"Right? There we go. I grew up in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":63.63,"endTime":67.47,"body":"a farm, small farm in northern"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":63.63,"endTime":67.47,"body":"Utah, Tremonton, Utah. I'm"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":67.5,"endTime":70.17,"body":"married. I've been married this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":67.5,"endTime":70.17,"body":"summer, we'll have our 35th"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":70.23,"endTime":71.01,"body":"anniversary."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":71.04,"endTime":72.21,"body":"Congratulations."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":72.24,"endTime":76.8,"body":"Six awesome kids, and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":72.24,"endTime":76.8,"body":"two and a half darling"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":76.8,"endTime":77.46,"body":"grandkids."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":77.67,"endTime":78.15,"body":"Oh, wow."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":78.3,"endTime":81.99,"body":"I did come through BYU,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":78.3,"endTime":81.99,"body":"graduated from BYU with a degree"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":81.99,"endTime":86.01,"body":"in geography. And I worked for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":81.99,"endTime":86.01,"body":"the church at the Provo"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":86.01,"endTime":89.1,"body":"Missionary Training Center. My"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":86.01,"endTime":89.1,"body":"entire career has been actually"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":89.1,"endTime":91.26,"body":"working for the church at the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":89.1,"endTime":91.26,"body":"Missionary Training Center. In"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":91.26,"endTime":95.49,"body":"fact, this spring will be 36"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":91.26,"endTime":95.49,"body":"years. Since I returned from my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":95.49,"endTime":97.41,"body":"mission and started there as a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":95.49,"endTime":97.41,"body":"Spanish teacher."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":97.47,"endTime":101.46,"body":"36 years at the MTC?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":97.47,"endTime":101.46,"body":"Wow. You've seen it all."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":101.49,"endTime":102.78,"body":"They're so lucky to have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":101.49,"endTime":102.78,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":103.29,"endTime":104.88,"body":"And I thought six weeks"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":103.29,"endTime":104.88,"body":"was enough."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":107.85,"endTime":109.56,"body":"And Travis, tell us a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":107.85,"endTime":109.56,"body":"little bit about your church"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":109.56,"endTime":110.25,"body":"service as well."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":111.15,"endTime":115.77,"body":"Okay, let's see. So,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":111.15,"endTime":115.77,"body":"when I got married 35 years ago,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":115.8,"endTime":117.87,"body":"interestingly, I was serving as"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":115.8,"endTime":117.87,"body":"a counselor in a branch"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":117.87,"endTime":123.45,"body":"presidency at the MTC. And so"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":117.87,"endTime":123.45,"body":"when I got married, I was on the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":123.45,"endTime":126.57,"body":"stand. It was kind of fun,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":123.45,"endTime":126.57,"body":"because my wife would come to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":126.57,"endTime":130.5,"body":"church and it was in Spanish. It"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":126.57,"endTime":130.5,"body":"was a Spanish branch. She"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":130.5,"endTime":134.88,"body":"learned to bless the sacrament"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":130.5,"endTime":134.88,"body":"in Spanish. But she didn't bless"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":134.88,"endTime":135.45,"body":"the sacrament..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":135.45,"endTime":138.09,"body":"I was gonna say, how"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":135.45,"endTime":138.09,"body":"progressive were you guys 35"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":138.09,"endTime":138.63,"body":"years ago?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":138.93,"endTime":141.63,"body":"She learned the, she"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":138.93,"endTime":141.63,"body":"memorized the prayers on the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":141.63,"endTime":145.77,"body":"sacrament. And then that just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":141.63,"endTime":145.77,"body":"kind of rolled into lots of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":145.8,"endTime":147.93,"body":"opportunities of church"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":145.8,"endTime":147.93,"body":"leadership service in the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":147.93,"endTime":152.52,"body":"church. I was about 28, when I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":147.93,"endTime":152.52,"body":"was called to be a counselor in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":152.52,"endTime":155.94,"body":"a stake presidency in my home"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":152.52,"endTime":155.94,"body":"stake here in Provo. That was 11"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":155.94,"endTime":159.39,"body":"and a half years, almost 12"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":155.94,"endTime":159.39,"body":"years later. And then that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":159.39,"endTime":164.28,"body":"rolled into Young Men's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":159.39,"endTime":164.28,"body":"President, High Council. And"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":164.28,"endTime":169.17,"body":"then in 2004, I was called to be"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":164.28,"endTime":169.17,"body":"a Mission President and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":169.17,"endTime":171.99,"body":"served--presided with my wife"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":169.17,"endTime":171.99,"body":"over the Texas Houston mission"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":172.23,"endTime":178.77,"body":"from 2005 to 2008. And got home"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":172.23,"endTime":178.77,"body":"and I was home about six weeks,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":178.77,"endTime":180.93,"body":"and I was called to be the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":178.77,"endTime":180.93,"body":"Bishop of my home ward."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":180.99,"endTime":181.62,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":181.86,"endTime":182.64,"body":"Keeping you busy"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":182.64,"endTime":186.9,"body":"Five more years there,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":182.64,"endTime":186.9,"body":"then moved into some High"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":186.9,"endTime":191.34,"body":"Council YSA stuff. So probably"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":186.9,"endTime":191.34,"body":"of our 35 years of marriage,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":191.67,"endTime":194.67,"body":"I've probably been on the stand"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":191.67,"endTime":194.67,"body":"in one capacity or another for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":194.67,"endTime":196.23,"body":"probably 30 of those 35 years."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":196.26,"endTime":198.96,"body":"Holy moly. So you've seen"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":196.26,"endTime":198.96,"body":"and done at all?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":199.02,"endTime":203.7,"body":"Well, no, I've seen a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":199.02,"endTime":203.7,"body":"lot. Never say you've seen it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":203.7,"endTime":204.0,"body":"all."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":204.0,"endTime":205.59,"body":"Well, it sounds like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":204.0,"endTime":205.59,"body":"you've influenced a lot of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":205.59,"endTime":209.28,"body":"people especially it seems like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":205.59,"endTime":209.28,"body":"I mean, working at MTC and YSA"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":209.28,"endTime":211.68,"body":"wards and being Mission"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":209.28,"endTime":211.68,"body":"President, that's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":211.71,"endTime":212.88,"body":"younger people that you..."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":213.449,"endTime":216.059,"body":"Yeah, and I feel like"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":213.449,"endTime":216.059,"body":"I'm on the other side of that,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":216.059,"endTime":219.389,"body":"Charlie, I feel like I've been"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":216.059,"endTime":219.389,"body":"the obvious wonderful recipient"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":219.389,"endTime":224.729,"body":"of opportunities to engage with"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":219.389,"endTime":224.729,"body":"a lot of young people and a lot"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":224.729,"endTime":229.139,"body":"of situations of helping and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":224.729,"endTime":229.139,"body":"serving and contributing."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":229.84,"endTime":232.9,"body":"Well, I'm going to use"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":229.84,"endTime":232.9,"body":"that to kind of segue right into"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":232.93,"endTime":236.35,"body":"coming out. It seems like, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":232.93,"endTime":236.35,"body":"mean, I thought my decision to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":236.35,"endTime":239.41,"body":"whether or not I should come out"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":236.35,"endTime":239.41,"body":"was hard, but in that I had a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":239.41,"endTime":242.35,"body":"lot of pressure, but it seems"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":239.41,"endTime":242.35,"body":"like you were, probably had"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":242.35,"endTime":243.13,"body":"quite a bit more."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":244.42,"endTime":251.11,"body":"Oh, perspective, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":244.42,"endTime":251.11,"body":"guess. Yeah. Yeah. So it was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":251.11,"endTime":258.88,"body":"tough. It was a tough thing for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":251.11,"endTime":258.88,"body":"me to not only come out about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":258.88,"endTime":260.86,"body":"being gay, but also to come to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":258.88,"endTime":260.86,"body":"terms with it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":260.89,"endTime":261.31,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":261.42,"endTime":263.4,"body":"I was pretty sure"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":261.42,"endTime":263.4,"body":"this--like probably most"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":263.43,"endTime":267.81,"body":"people--that I was gonna get to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":263.43,"endTime":267.81,"body":"my grave with this. I did pretty"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":267.81,"endTime":271.2,"body":"good. You know, I made it about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":267.81,"endTime":271.2,"body":"four decades in the closet."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":271.89,"endTime":275.22,"body":"That's definitely not a world"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":271.89,"endTime":275.22,"body":"record. But I did pretty well. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":275.22,"endTime":277.59,"body":"don't think that's anything I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":275.22,"endTime":277.59,"body":"necessarily want to be proud of,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":277.59,"endTime":279.3,"body":"or anything, anybody ought to..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":280.02,"endTime":283.05,"body":"Well, I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":280.02,"endTime":283.05,"body":"testament to just how difficult"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":283.05,"endTime":285.09,"body":"it can be when you're trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":283.05,"endTime":285.09,"body":"figure this out. And there's,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":285.12,"endTime":289.44,"body":"there's different pressures and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":285.12,"endTime":289.44,"body":"like this process that gets you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":289.44,"endTime":293.85,"body":"to the point of, of actually"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":289.44,"endTime":293.85,"body":"coming out is so much so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":293.85,"endTime":296.04,"body":"different for every person, you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":293.85,"endTime":296.04,"body":"know,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":296.66,"endTime":300.08,"body":"For sure. And I think,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":296.66,"endTime":300.08,"body":"obviously--well for me, I would"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":300.08,"endTime":304.79,"body":"say--that this church service"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":300.08,"endTime":304.79,"body":"obviously made it much more"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":304.79,"endTime":307.85,"body":"difficult, you know. You you're"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":304.79,"endTime":307.85,"body":"serving as a counselor in the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":307.85,"endTime":311.39,"body":"Stake Presidency, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":307.85,"endTime":311.39,"body":"just, you just can't, you can't"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":311.39,"endTime":314.87,"body":"talk about that. A Mission"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":311.39,"endTime":314.87,"body":"President, I mean, you. So I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":314.87,"endTime":318.38,"body":"think a lot of that just the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":314.87,"endTime":318.38,"body":"circumstances with church"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":318.38,"endTime":322.19,"body":"calling and feeling the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":318.38,"endTime":322.19,"body":"pressure, or feeling the weight"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":322.22,"endTime":326.18,"body":"of the \"what if?\" if people"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":322.22,"endTime":326.18,"body":"knew--particularly while being"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":326.21,"endTime":329.57,"body":"well being in those types of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":326.21,"endTime":329.57,"body":"assignments--definitely weighed"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":329.57,"endTime":333.89,"body":"into the decision whether I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":329.57,"endTime":333.89,"body":"would or wouldn't. Also, at the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":333.89,"endTime":338.33,"body":"same time, on the flip side of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":333.89,"endTime":338.33,"body":"that, I feel like all those"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":338.33,"endTime":342.26,"body":"years of church service were a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":338.33,"endTime":342.26,"body":"great blessing in actually"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":342.41,"endTime":350.0,"body":"helping me with my same sex"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":342.41,"endTime":350.0,"body":"attraction. It, for one, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":350.0,"endTime":355.16,"body":"believe it provided a really"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":350.0,"endTime":355.16,"body":"great space and place to be"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":355.19,"endTime":359.57,"body":"with--in an appropriate and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":355.19,"endTime":359.57,"body":"healthy way--other men. I'm"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":359.57,"endTime":363.74,"body":"really terrible at male"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":359.57,"endTime":363.74,"body":"friendships. But kind of some of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":363.74,"endTime":366.35,"body":"these forced, you know,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":363.74,"endTime":366.35,"body":"friendships, these forced"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":366.38,"endTime":369.68,"body":"opportunities, experiences, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":366.38,"endTime":369.68,"body":"know, you're when you're in a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":369.77,"endTime":373.76,"body":"presidency of some sort. There's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":369.77,"endTime":373.76,"body":"always counselors, there's a lot"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":373.76,"endTime":377.09,"body":"of people, other men in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":373.76,"endTime":377.09,"body":"particular, and here together,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":377.12,"endTime":380.0,"body":"working together closely on a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":377.12,"endTime":380.0,"body":"great cause, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":380.0,"endTime":384.56,"body":"camaraderie, a lot of sweet"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":380.0,"endTime":384.56,"body":"association, but also in a safe,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":384.59,"endTime":389.42,"body":"healthy, and appropriate way. So"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":384.59,"endTime":389.42,"body":"I think in lots of ways, there"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":389.42,"endTime":392.27,"body":"was a lot of comfort and a lot"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":389.42,"endTime":392.27,"body":"of help in that I wasn't, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":392.27,"endTime":395.48,"body":"wasn't completely alone. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":392.27,"endTime":395.48,"body":"obviously, I was alone in that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":395.48,"endTime":400.88,"body":"secret. But I wasn't this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":395.48,"endTime":400.88,"body":"isolated male person, without"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":401.18,"endTime":404.96,"body":"other men in my life in a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":401.18,"endTime":404.96,"body":"healthy and productive way."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":405.02,"endTime":407.33,"body":"Yeah. So your calling"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":405.02,"endTime":407.33,"body":"provided you with opportunities"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":407.33,"endTime":410.72,"body":"to form good, healthy"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":407.33,"endTime":410.72,"body":"relationships, but also put"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":410.72,"endTime":413.69,"body":"pressure on you to not share"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":410.72,"endTime":413.69,"body":"personal things about your life?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":413.72,"endTime":414.35,"body":"Yeah, for sure."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":414.65,"endTime":418.25,"body":"So when did you first start"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":414.65,"endTime":418.25,"body":"wanting to come out or feeling"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":418.37,"endTime":419.57,"body":"that desire to come out?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":420.38,"endTime":425.9,"body":"So along this line of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":420.38,"endTime":425.9,"body":"all these years, about five"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":425.9,"endTime":431.87,"body":"years ago, it kind of all came"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":425.9,"endTime":431.87,"body":"to a halt, like this strain of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":431.87,"endTime":435.35,"body":"church service kind of ended. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":431.87,"endTime":435.35,"body":"was released from being bishop."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":436.64,"endTime":440.6,"body":"I didn't jump right into any"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":436.64,"endTime":440.6,"body":"other calling. You know, I felt"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":440.6,"endTime":445.19,"body":"like I for like, a good 25 years"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":440.6,"endTime":445.19,"body":"had just been running really"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":445.19,"endTime":448.79,"body":"hard from calling to calling to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":445.19,"endTime":448.79,"body":"calling. And then all of a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":448.79,"endTime":453.8,"body":"sudden, it was just this empty"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":448.79,"endTime":453.8,"body":"period of some years where I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":453.8,"endTime":456.59,"body":"didn't have somewhere I had to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":453.8,"endTime":456.59,"body":"be on Sunday. I didn't have"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":456.89,"endTime":460.52,"body":"weeknight meetings. I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":456.89,"endTime":460.52,"body":"meeting with these other men and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":460.61,"endTime":466.07,"body":"in presidency meetings, or Ward"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":460.61,"endTime":466.07,"body":"councils. And so there begin to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":466.07,"endTime":471.62,"body":"be this feeling of just alone"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":466.07,"endTime":471.62,"body":"with myself, alone with my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":471.62,"endTime":476.87,"body":"thoughts alone, with my time,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":471.62,"endTime":476.87,"body":"alone in my head. And so I'd say"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":476.87,"endTime":482.93,"body":"a lot of these, this same sex"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":476.87,"endTime":482.93,"body":"attraction, that normally a lot"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":482.93,"endTime":486.08,"body":"of these activities could kind"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":482.93,"endTime":486.08,"body":"of keep, you know, on the shelf,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":486.08,"endTime":488.39,"body":"because I was so busy, and they"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":486.08,"endTime":488.39,"body":"were kind of in my face--felt"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":488.51,"endTime":492.92,"body":"like it just kind of was really"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":488.51,"endTime":492.92,"body":"coming up in my face. And I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":492.92,"endTime":495.35,"body":"think that's what I would kind"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":492.92,"endTime":495.35,"body":"of pin it on just, you know,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":495.35,"endTime":498.62,"body":"this downtime. This, unlike any"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":495.35,"endTime":498.62,"body":"time in period of my life"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":498.62,"endTime":502.16,"body":"related I'd ever had, I suddenly"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":498.62,"endTime":502.16,"body":"had a lot of time to think and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":502.16,"endTime":504.71,"body":"this just kind of really rose up"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":502.16,"endTime":504.71,"body":"and was in my face."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":505.26,"endTime":508.11,"body":"You know, my experience was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":505.26,"endTime":508.11,"body":"super similar, although a few"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":509.04,"endTime":513.6,"body":"years younger. When I was 23, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":509.04,"endTime":513.6,"body":"was taking a full load of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":513.6,"endTime":516.84,"body":"classes at BYU, I was teaching"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":513.6,"endTime":516.84,"body":"part time at the MTC and I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":516.84,"endTime":521.31,"body":"dating a woman. And then at the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":516.84,"endTime":521.31,"body":"end of that semester, she and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.66,"body":"broke up. And I was not taking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.66,"body":"classes spring and summer term."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":525.66,"endTime":528.63,"body":"And I was only working part time"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":525.66,"endTime":528.63,"body":"at the MTC and I finally had all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":528.63,"endTime":531.99,"body":"this time to just sit and stew"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":528.63,"endTime":531.99,"body":"and think and that's when things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":531.99,"endTime":533.4,"body":"started to get really hard for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":531.99,"endTime":533.4,"body":"me as well."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":534.17,"endTime":537.2,"body":"It was interesting"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":534.17,"endTime":537.2,"body":"because it it started to just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":537.2,"endTime":541.07,"body":"really be in my head, but but"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":537.2,"endTime":541.07,"body":"there was a particular part"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":541.07,"endTime":544.07,"body":"about it that I had never"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":541.07,"endTime":544.07,"body":"experienced in all those years"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":544.07,"endTime":547.97,"body":"was that, that I should tell my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":544.07,"endTime":547.97,"body":"wife. And this was a new twist"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":547.97,"endTime":551.78,"body":"on this that kind of came out of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":547.97,"endTime":551.78,"body":"nowhere. And it was alarming."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":552.65,"endTime":555.86,"body":"Because I just felt like it was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":552.65,"endTime":555.86,"body":"just welling up in me and it was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":555.86,"endTime":559.04,"body":"just gonna, like, fall out of my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":555.86,"endTime":559.04,"body":"mouth. You know, have you ever"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":559.25,"endTime":562.64,"body":"been in a situation where you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":559.25,"endTime":562.64,"body":"you're, you're worried that you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":562.64,"endTime":566.39,"body":"might just say something crazy,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":562.64,"endTime":566.39,"body":"or it might be the truth, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":566.39,"endTime":568.91,"body":"might be sitting on the truth of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":566.39,"endTime":568.91,"body":"something and someone's talking"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":568.91,"endTime":572.45,"body":"and you want to just scream the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":568.91,"endTime":572.45,"body":"truth but you kind of go, \"No, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":572.45,"endTime":574.61,"body":"can't do that. You know that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":572.45,"endTime":574.61,"body":"would be ridiculous. Don't do"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":574.61,"endTime":577.55,"body":"that.\" It kind of felt like"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":574.61,"endTime":577.55,"body":"that's what was going to happen"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":577.58,"endTime":581.0,"body":"happen that that this was just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":577.58,"endTime":581.0,"body":"gonna come out to my wife and I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":581.0,"endTime":581.57,"body":"just kind of terrifying."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":581.66,"endTime":582.29,"body":"Terrifying."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":582.81,"endTime":586.41,"body":"Very terrifying. I kept saying"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":582.81,"endTime":586.41,"body":"\"No, no, not going there. No,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":586.41,"endTime":588.66,"body":"where's this coming from? No,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":586.41,"endTime":588.66,"body":"you know, you're not going to do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":588.66,"endTime":593.01,"body":"that.\" But it persisted and it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":588.66,"endTime":593.01,"body":"and it got much, much more"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":593.01,"endTime":598.11,"body":"intense day by day to where I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":593.01,"endTime":598.11,"body":"just really was alarmed that at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":598.11,"endTime":602.97,"body":"any moment, it would just fall"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":598.11,"endTime":602.97,"body":"out of my mouth. And one Sunday"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":602.97,"endTime":607.17,"body":"morning, I woke up and it just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":602.97,"endTime":607.17,"body":"fell out of my mouth, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":607.17,"endTime":612.0,"body":"out of my control. So I have to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":607.17,"endTime":612.0,"body":"say, in that particular instance"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":612.0,"endTime":615.21,"body":"of coming out to the first"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":612.0,"endTime":615.21,"body":"person, I didn't come out"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":615.45,"endTime":619.11,"body":"willingly or intentionally, it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":615.45,"endTime":619.11,"body":"just fell out."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":619.32,"endTime":621.81,"body":"How would you describe that?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":619.32,"endTime":621.81,"body":"What was happening that week,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":621.81,"endTime":624.0,"body":"and that day that led it to just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":621.81,"endTime":624.0,"body":"fall out?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":624.0,"endTime":626.34,"body":"I think it just was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":624.0,"endTime":626.34,"body":"building day by day, the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":626.34,"endTime":629.91,"body":"pressure of it and the worry and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":626.34,"endTime":629.91,"body":"the fear and along with it, the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":629.91,"endTime":633.51,"body":"associated shame and fear of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":629.91,"endTime":633.51,"body":"what it would mean if someone"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":633.51,"endTime":639.45,"body":"knew. And so I think it was just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":633.51,"endTime":639.45,"body":"broiling inside of me much, much"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":639.45,"endTime":644.13,"body":"more than it had at any other"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":639.45,"endTime":644.13,"body":"point in my life. And I think,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":644.82,"endTime":647.94,"body":"subconsciously, maybe was this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":644.82,"endTime":647.94,"body":"this thought that if it came"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":647.94,"endTime":653.37,"body":"out, then it would relieve this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":647.94,"endTime":653.37,"body":"broiling, worrisome, fearsome,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":653.4,"endTime":659.43,"body":"shameful, shameful feelings that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":653.4,"endTime":659.43,"body":"I was having. But I wasn't I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":659.43,"endTime":661.98,"body":"wasn't in agreement that that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":659.43,"endTime":661.98,"body":"was the thing to do. Or this is"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":661.98,"endTime":667.17,"body":"the time or, or anything. And so"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":661.98,"endTime":667.17,"body":"it, it was alarming and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":667.17,"endTime":667.8,"body":"surprising."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":667.95,"endTime":671.46,"body":"Yeah. So what I heard you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":667.95,"endTime":671.46,"body":"say was part of this decision to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":671.46,"endTime":675.78,"body":"tell your wife, even if it was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":671.46,"endTime":675.78,"body":"not a conscious decision, was it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":675.78,"endTime":679.02,"body":"there was all this shame"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":675.78,"endTime":679.02,"body":"bubbling up in you? And that was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":679.02,"endTime":681.06,"body":"a way to release those feelings?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":681.09,"endTime":683.85,"body":"Yeah, it was, oh man, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":681.09,"endTime":683.85,"body":"was a hot mess. But"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":684.96,"endTime":689.94,"body":"unfortunately, and and, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":684.96,"endTime":689.94,"body":"know, I, I couldn't have known"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":689.94,"endTime":693.63,"body":"this, that but rather than, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":689.94,"endTime":693.63,"body":"know, I got it out. And I have"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":693.63,"endTime":697.71,"body":"to admit, my wife was, was a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":693.63,"endTime":697.71,"body":"hero with this. She, she took it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":697.71,"endTime":701.43,"body":"extremely well with with"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":697.71,"endTime":701.43,"body":"incredible compassion and great"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":701.46,"endTime":705.48,"body":"understanding. And man, it came"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":701.46,"endTime":705.48,"body":"out with great, great emotion. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":705.48,"endTime":708.27,"body":"mean, it was this was, this was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":705.48,"endTime":708.27,"body":"not pretty."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":708.72,"endTime":710.19,"body":"You had decades of holding"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":708.72,"endTime":710.19,"body":"it in."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":710.7,"endTime":715.56,"body":"And she just, she just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":710.7,"endTime":715.56,"body":"listened and encouraged and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":715.56,"endTime":719.52,"body":"reassured, and, you know, \"Hey,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":715.56,"endTime":719.52,"body":"we'll get this figured out. And"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":719.52,"endTime":722.43,"body":"I'm so glad you told me and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":719.52,"endTime":722.43,"body":"you're great. And we're great.\""},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":722.43,"endTime":722.76,"body":"And..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":723.5,"endTime":724.46,"body":"She's just wonderful."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":724.49,"endTime":727.19,"body":"Yeah, just she she is a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":724.49,"endTime":727.19,"body":"rock star, just a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":727.19,"endTime":731.45,"body":"reassuring comfort. But almost"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":727.19,"endTime":731.45,"body":"immediately, what began to set"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":731.45,"endTime":736.91,"body":"in was this, this fact that I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":731.45,"endTime":736.91,"body":"had actually said the words, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":736.91,"endTime":738.56,"body":"mean, I, I said it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":738.59,"endTime":740.87,"body":"It like makes it real"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":738.59,"endTime":740.87,"body":"and you can't go back."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":740.87,"endTime":741.17,"body":"Once you say it."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":741.0,"endTime":745.98,"body":"And I had no idea how"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":741.0,"endTime":745.98,"body":"much that that that that would"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":746.55,"endTime":748.44,"body":"particularly--saying that would"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":746.55,"endTime":748.44,"body":"would affect me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":748.47,"endTime":749.79,"body":"And the words you said"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":748.47,"endTime":749.79,"body":"were, \"I'm gay.\""},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":749.79,"endTime":750.06,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":750.81,"endTime":752.67,"body":"Some of the things you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":750.81,"endTime":752.67,"body":"were saying really resonated to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":752.67,"endTime":755.46,"body":"me about feeling shame, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":752.67,"endTime":755.46,"body":"everything was just building up."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":755.46,"endTime":759.87,"body":"And for any listeners that that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":755.46,"endTime":759.87,"body":"are wondering what it like, what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":759.87,"endTime":762.66,"body":"it's like to feel like you're in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":759.87,"endTime":762.66,"body":"the closet. For me, it literally"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":762.66,"endTime":765.42,"body":"felt like I was in an actual"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":762.66,"endTime":765.42,"body":"closet, I was like Harry Potter"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":765.42,"endTime":768.42,"body":"living under this stairwell, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":765.42,"endTime":768.42,"body":"I was cramped up and it was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":768.42,"endTime":776.46,"body":"dark. And I felt like before I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":768.42,"endTime":776.46,"body":"came out, being isolated from"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":776.46,"endTime":781.8,"body":"everyone, and being alone with"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":776.46,"endTime":781.8,"body":"myself, really, almost was like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":781.83,"endTime":785.7,"body":"a conduit for the adversary to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":781.83,"endTime":785.7,"body":"get to me, and, and make me hate"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":785.7,"endTime":792.03,"body":"myself. And any fear or, like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":785.7,"endTime":792.03,"body":"hatred I had for myself was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":792.03,"endTime":794.76,"body":"amplified when I was alone, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":792.03,"endTime":794.76,"body":"when it was dark, and when I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":794.76,"endTime":798.87,"body":"scared, and when I wasn't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":794.76,"endTime":798.87,"body":"letting any light in. And so the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":798.87,"endTime":801.87,"body":"reason I ended up coming out to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":798.87,"endTime":801.87,"body":"the first person was because"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":801.87,"endTime":807.45,"body":"finally, those terrible feelings"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":801.87,"endTime":807.45,"body":"of of just like--this is no way"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":807.45,"endTime":812.97,"body":"to live--where were outweighed"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":807.45,"endTime":812.97,"body":"by my fear of rejection. So"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":812.97,"endTime":815.22,"body":"like, the reason I wasn't coming"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":812.97,"endTime":815.22,"body":"out was because I was scared of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":815.22,"endTime":817.29,"body":"it, that my loved ones would"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":815.22,"endTime":817.29,"body":"reject me or that my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":817.29,"endTime":822.63,"body":"relationships would change. But"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":817.29,"endTime":822.63,"body":"I was less scared of that, than"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":822.63,"endTime":826.56,"body":"I was at forever living in this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":822.63,"endTime":826.56,"body":"place of darkness. And for me,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":826.56,"endTime":829.35,"body":"that was kind of my transition"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":826.56,"endTime":829.35,"body":"state."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":830.01,"endTime":832.68,"body":"You know, you know, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":830.01,"endTime":832.68,"body":"hear that? I don't know that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":832.68,"endTime":835.71,"body":"phrase, the hardest person to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":832.68,"endTime":835.71,"body":"come out to is yourself. And,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":836.16,"endTime":839.85,"body":"and boy, in this particular"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":836.16,"endTime":839.85,"body":"case, that was for sure me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":840.0,"endTime":840.36,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":841.08,"endTime":845.85,"body":"I just I I had lived"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":841.08,"endTime":845.85,"body":"most of my life really, I think,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":846.9,"endTime":851.43,"body":"as a major coping mechanism was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":846.9,"endTime":851.43,"body":"denial, just just denying this,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":851.7,"endTime":854.49,"body":"you know, or minimizing it, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":851.7,"endTime":854.49,"body":"know, maybe I'm a little bit gay"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":854.49,"endTime":858.24,"body":"or, yeah, sometimes I'm kind of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":854.49,"endTime":858.24,"body":"gay, but mostly I'm not gay. Or"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":858.78,"endTime":861.63,"body":"you know, I've had big stretches"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":858.78,"endTime":861.63,"body":"where I think, \"I don't know"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":861.63,"endTime":863.76,"body":"what that was all about,\""},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":861.63,"endTime":863.76,"body":"thinking that you were gay and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":863.76,"endTime":866.1,"body":"then I'd have ever other times"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":863.76,"endTime":866.1,"body":"where it was just like in my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":866.1,"endTime":871.83,"body":"face and I was just so"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":866.1,"endTime":871.83,"body":"overwhelmed or confused. And so"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":873.87,"endTime":879.39,"body":"now having said it, now having"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":873.87,"endTime":879.39,"body":"looked at it was just more than"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":879.39,"endTime":884.34,"body":"at the moment that I could bear."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":879.39,"endTime":884.34,"body":"I I studied a lot and learned a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":884.34,"endTime":887.91,"body":"lot as I've kind of been through"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":884.34,"endTime":887.91,"body":"this. And recently I was reading"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":887.94,"endTime":891.57,"body":"\"Co-dependent No More,\" by"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":887.94,"endTime":891.57,"body":"Melody Beattie and I came across"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":891.57,"endTime":895.68,"body":"this this thing she says about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":891.57,"endTime":895.68,"body":"denial and this was me to a tee."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":895.68,"endTime":900.63,"body":"She says, \"Denial can be a gift."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":895.68,"endTime":900.63,"body":"It gives people time to gather"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":900.66,"endTime":905.64,"body":"their resources so they can face"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":900.66,"endTime":905.64,"body":"the truth.\" And, you know, that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":905.67,"endTime":909.63,"body":"40 years of trying to gather my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":905.67,"endTime":909.63,"body":"resources, and I kind of think,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":909.9,"endTime":915.33,"body":"and I believe that there was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":909.9,"endTime":915.33,"body":"surely a spiritual aspect of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":915.33,"endTime":918.78,"body":"this process that God was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":915.33,"endTime":918.78,"body":"saying, \"Hey, you know, Travis,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":918.78,"endTime":922.8,"body":"we've, we've worked on this for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":918.78,"endTime":922.8,"body":"40 years, or you've worked on"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":922.8,"endTime":925.77,"body":"this for 40 years. And, and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":922.8,"endTime":925.77,"body":"you've, this has really been"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":925.77,"endTime":929.55,"body":"tough to watch you. And you know"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":925.77,"endTime":929.55,"body":"what, I'm gonna help you along"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":929.55,"endTime":934.11,"body":"here. We're gonna...\" because I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":929.55,"endTime":934.11,"body":"think had I been left to myself,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":934.11,"endTime":937.14,"body":"I'm pretty sure that I could"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":934.11,"endTime":937.14,"body":"have got to my grave with this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":937.26,"endTime":942.21,"body":"as a secret. But I feel like He"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":937.26,"endTime":942.21,"body":"just said, \"I'm gonna, I'm"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":942.21,"endTime":945.15,"body":"gonna, I'm going to do this for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":942.21,"endTime":945.15,"body":"you. We are going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":945.15,"endTime":948.6,"body":"it. And I'm going to start the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":945.15,"endTime":948.6,"body":"ball rolling. And here we go.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":948.63,"endTime":950.79,"body":"Now so Travis, I'm hearing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":948.63,"endTime":950.79,"body":"you say two things right now"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":950.79,"endTime":955.02,"body":"that that being in the closet"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":950.79,"endTime":955.02,"body":"for so long was was sort of a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":955.02,"endTime":958.35,"body":"blessing for you. It was a good"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":955.02,"endTime":958.35,"body":"thing. It was a way for you to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":958.38,"endTime":962.19,"body":"prepare for that, for that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":958.38,"endTime":962.19,"body":"revealing of a hard truth."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":962.0,"endTime":965.48,"body":"Yeah, I think so. And,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":962.0,"endTime":965.48,"body":"you know, it's 40 years is a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":965.48,"endTime":968.63,"body":"long time to carry that type of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":965.48,"endTime":968.63,"body":"a burden. And, and believe me,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":968.63,"endTime":971.6,"body":"it was, it was plenty of burden."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":968.63,"endTime":971.6,"body":"But I can't say that it was 40"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":971.6,"endTime":974.78,"body":"years of misery. I mean, I've"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":971.6,"endTime":974.78,"body":"had a great life, I've had a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":974.78,"endTime":978.98,"body":"great marriage, we have six"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":974.78,"endTime":978.98,"body":"awesome kids, I've had a great"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":978.98,"endTime":982.61,"body":"career, a lot of joy, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":978.98,"endTime":982.61,"body":"happiness. Of course, we've you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":982.61,"endTime":985.25,"body":"know, we're like any other"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":982.61,"endTime":985.25,"body":"family, like any other marriage,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":985.25,"endTime":990.5,"body":"we've had our ups and downs. But"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":985.25,"endTime":990.5,"body":"underlying this was always just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":990.53,"endTime":998.54,"body":"eating at my self-esteem, my my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":990.53,"endTime":998.54,"body":"self-worth, in probably some of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":998.54,"endTime":1003.16,"body":"the most damaging ways. Which I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":998.54,"endTime":1003.16,"body":"believe really kind of fed into"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1003.16,"endTime":1007.36,"body":"this opportunity to serve and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1003.16,"endTime":1007.36,"body":"help other people. It was kind"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1007.36,"endTime":1011.38,"body":"of like, \"I'm, I'm the worst of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1007.36,"endTime":1011.38,"body":"worst, I'm broken. I'm"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1011.38,"endTime":1016.3,"body":"inherently bad. And part of the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1011.38,"endTime":1016.3,"body":"penance of that is the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1016.3,"endTime":1020.38,"body":"opportunity to help other"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1016.3,"endTime":1020.38,"body":"people.\" And so, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1020.38,"endTime":1023.56,"body":"just threw myself into what can"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1020.38,"endTime":1023.56,"body":"I do for everyone else, so I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1023.74,"endTime":1026.56,"body":"couldn't or wouldn't think about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1023.74,"endTime":1026.56,"body":"myself and then underlying,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1026.56,"endTime":1033.1,"body":"hoping that maybe at the end,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1026.56,"endTime":1033.1,"body":"there will have been enough of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1033.1,"endTime":1036.97,"body":"trying and enough of good that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1033.1,"endTime":1036.97,"body":"maybe it will outweigh..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1036.97,"endTime":1038.92,"body":"To just like make up"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1036.97,"endTime":1038.92,"body":"for broken you were?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1038.92,"endTime":1040.45,"body":"You know, how bad and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1038.92,"endTime":1040.45,"body":"broken I really am."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1041.23,"endTime":1043.84,"body":"Okay, the other thing I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1041.23,"endTime":1043.84,"body":"heard you say, Travis, is that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1043.84,"endTime":1047.08,"body":"you feel like coming out was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1043.84,"endTime":1047.08,"body":"something that God led you to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1047.08,"endTime":1052.09,"body":"do. I had a very similar"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1047.08,"endTime":1052.09,"body":"experience where, when I, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1052.09,"endTime":1054.7,"body":"didn't really decide I'm going"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1052.09,"endTime":1054.7,"body":"to come out right now. But I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1054.73,"endTime":1058.63,"body":"just had this burden on me, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1054.73,"endTime":1058.63,"body":"just couldn't keep it inside"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1058.63,"endTime":1061.87,"body":"anymore. It wasn't that I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1058.63,"endTime":1061.87,"body":"trying to get rid of shame or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1061.99,"endTime":1065.95,"body":"let go of some release valve. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1061.99,"endTime":1065.95,"body":"just couldn't do it on my own"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1065.95,"endTime":1069.04,"body":"anymore. I just needed support."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1065.95,"endTime":1069.04,"body":"And that was when I was 23. And,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1069.28,"endTime":1071.68,"body":"and I had tried to come out a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1069.28,"endTime":1071.68,"body":"couple friends and I kept"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1071.68,"endTime":1075.25,"body":"chickening out. And then, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1071.68,"endTime":1075.25,"body":"know, it was like God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.25,"endTime":1078.58,"body":"orchestrated the perfect"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.25,"endTime":1078.58,"body":"situation. I ended up on a walk"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1078.58,"endTime":1082.42,"body":"on on a summer evening with my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1078.58,"endTime":1082.42,"body":"two best friends in this quiet"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1082.42,"endTime":1085.15,"body":"secluded place. And I knew I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1082.42,"endTime":1085.15,"body":"needed to tell them but I almost"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1085.15,"endTime":1088.18,"body":"chickened out. But it was like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1085.15,"endTime":1088.18,"body":"God said, \"I created this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1088.18,"endTime":1091.3,"body":"perfect situation for you to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1088.18,"endTime":1091.3,"body":"able to tell them what's been"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1091.3,"endTime":1095.77,"body":"going on.\" And that was the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1091.3,"endTime":1095.77,"body":"right thing for me. I feel like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1095.77,"endTime":1096.94,"body":"God led me to do that."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1097.0,"endTime":1099.07,"body":"And I think in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1097.0,"endTime":1099.07,"body":"hindsight--and I think my wife"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1099.07,"endTime":1101.95,"body":"would definitely agree too--that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1099.07,"endTime":1101.95,"body":"she'd been prepared. Yeah, she'd"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1101.95,"endTime":1105.34,"body":"been prepared. It was the time"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1101.95,"endTime":1105.34,"body":"it was the moment. And it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1105.37,"endTime":1108.85,"body":"probably couldn't have been any"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1105.37,"endTime":1108.85,"body":"better for what it was."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1108.88,"endTime":1111.67,"body":"For what it was. I kind"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1108.88,"endTime":1111.67,"body":"of compare it sometimes--I've"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1111.67,"endTime":1113.65,"body":"had people ask me, \"What does it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1111.67,"endTime":1113.65,"body":"feel like right before you come"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1113.65,"endTime":1118.93,"body":"out?\" And to me, it was almost"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1113.65,"endTime":1118.93,"body":"like you're sitting in fast and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1118.93,"endTime":1121.12,"body":"testimony meeting, and the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1118.93,"endTime":1121.12,"body":"Spirit's telling you to bear"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1121.12,"endTime":1125.44,"body":"your testimony. And it's like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1121.12,"endTime":1125.44,"body":"but like, amplified by a crazy"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1125.44,"endTime":1126.1,"body":"factor."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1126.13,"endTime":1126.55,"body":"Totally."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1126.58,"endTime":1129.46,"body":"But this, like, you're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1126.58,"endTime":1129.46,"body":"kind of like, nervous and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1129.46,"endTime":1132.16,"body":"anxious. And you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1129.46,"endTime":1132.16,"body":"something you need to do. And it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1132.16,"endTime":1133.51,"body":"feels right, but it feels wrong."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1133.45,"endTime":1136.27,"body":"Absolutely. Excellent"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1133.45,"endTime":1136.27,"body":"example."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1136.42,"endTime":1140.23,"body":"But then once you do"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1136.42,"endTime":1140.23,"body":"it, it's so much better. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1140.8,"endTime":1145.69,"body":"you cry. Which I did a lot. The"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1140.8,"endTime":1145.69,"body":"first time I came out/"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1145.69,"endTime":1148.57,"body":"And part of it too, is"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1145.69,"endTime":1148.57,"body":"that it's not necessarily a one"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1148.57,"endTime":1152.23,"body":"time thing. But there's all"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1148.57,"endTime":1152.23,"body":"these other places. And they"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1152.23,"endTime":1155.95,"body":"each carry their own particular"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1152.23,"endTime":1155.95,"body":"fear and shame."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1156.04,"endTime":1157.72,"body":"Yeah, right. Good"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1156.04,"endTime":1157.72,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1157.72,"endTime":1161.02,"body":"So I think, for me, it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1157.72,"endTime":1161.02,"body":"was I could tell where I needed"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1161.32,"endTime":1163.75,"body":"to talk about it, because that's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1161.32,"endTime":1163.75,"body":"where I had the greatest fear"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1163.75,"endTime":1169.3,"body":"and the greatest shame. Coming"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1163.75,"endTime":1169.3,"body":"out really, for me was was based"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1169.3,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"on--it wasn't about what people"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1169.3,"endTime":1173.11,"body":"that people needed to know--t"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1173.5,"endTime":1176.86,"body":"was that I needed to say it."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1173.5,"endTime":1176.86,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1176.92,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"It was more for you than"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1176.92,"endTime":1178.45,"body":"them."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1178.48,"endTime":1182.35,"body":"Oh, absolutely. Because"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1178.48,"endTime":1182.35,"body":"it was it wasn't that I wanted"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1182.35,"endTime":1186.31,"body":"people to know or people needed"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1182.35,"endTime":1186.31,"body":"to know--I needed to not hide"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1186.31,"endTime":1188.92,"body":"it. I needed to speak it, I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1186.31,"endTime":1188.92,"body":"needed to own it, I needed to"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1188.92,"endTime":1194.2,"body":"say it. And so wherever I would"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1188.92,"endTime":1194.2,"body":"have places where I could have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1194.2,"endTime":1197.95,"body":"this fear building, and even on"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1194.2,"endTime":1197.95,"body":"occasion once in a while still"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1198.43,"endTime":1202.0,"body":"and there'll be a situation that"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1198.43,"endTime":1202.0,"body":"will arise where, even though"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1202.0,"endTime":1205.36,"body":"I'm out pretty"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1202.0,"endTime":1205.36,"body":"publicly--there'll be a"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1205.36,"endTime":1209.71,"body":"situation where someone won't"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1205.36,"endTime":1209.71,"body":"know. And, and I don't even"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1209.71,"endTime":1212.8,"body":"think about them not knowing."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1209.71,"endTime":1212.8,"body":"And then the occasion will arise"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":1212.8,"endTime":1215.02,"body":"where, \"Oh, they don't know.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1215.05,"endTime":1216.58,"body":"it's almost like a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1215.05,"endTime":1216.58,"body":"barrier between your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1216.58,"endTime":1216.91,"body":"relationship."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1216.91,"endTime":1220.78,"body":"Or it's like I call it a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1216.91,"endTime":1220.78,"body":"bubble starts to form. This,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1220.78,"endTime":1225.34,"body":"this bubble starts to form and I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1220.78,"endTime":1225.34,"body":"start going, \"Uh oh,\" and in my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1225.34,"endTime":1228.01,"body":"part, it's, you know, my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1225.34,"endTime":1228.01,"body":"narrative in my head, I go back"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1228.01,"endTime":1230.17,"body":"in my head. And there's this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1228.01,"endTime":1230.17,"body":"shame that begins of \"Oh, no,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1230.17,"endTime":1233.05,"body":"what if they find out?\" Or or,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1230.17,"endTime":1233.05,"body":"\"Oh, no, are they they're"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1233.05,"endTime":1235.75,"body":"thinking this.\" And there's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1233.05,"endTime":1235.75,"body":"going to be a misunderstanding,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1235.75,"endTime":1237.07,"body":"Reverting to old"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1235.75,"endTime":1237.07,"body":"thinking patterns."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1237.0,"endTime":1240.24,"body":"Exactly. And so I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1237.0,"endTime":1240.24,"body":"recognize that really quick"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1240.24,"endTime":1243.39,"body":"now--that bubble forming, and I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1240.24,"endTime":1243.39,"body":"work as quick as I can to pop"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1243.51,"endTime":1247.8,"body":"it--up to this point where I, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1243.51,"endTime":1247.8,"body":"can't bear shame anymore."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1248.43,"endTime":1250.71,"body":"So it sounds like your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1248.43,"endTime":1250.71,"body":"coming out with a deliberate"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1250.71,"endTime":1254.13,"body":"process of combating fear and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1250.71,"endTime":1254.13,"body":"shame in different areas of your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1254.13,"endTime":1254.49,"body":"life."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1254.55,"endTime":1259.59,"body":"Absolutely. And I have"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1254.55,"endTime":1259.59,"body":"to say, without the help of a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1259.59,"endTime":1264.12,"body":"really skilled therapist, and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1259.59,"endTime":1264.12,"body":"the support of my wife in kind"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1264.12,"endTime":1268.02,"body":"of really challenging a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1264.12,"endTime":1268.02,"body":"the false narrative that I began"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1268.05,"endTime":1272.58,"body":"to make her aware of, you know."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1268.05,"endTime":1272.58,"body":"I, I began to talk about all of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1272.58,"endTime":1275.97,"body":"this with her. She's like, \"What"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1272.58,"endTime":1275.97,"body":"do you think you're worthless?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1275.97,"endTime":1279.0,"body":"Why do you think you're broken?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1275.97,"endTime":1279.0,"body":"You think this?\" I mean, it was"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1279.0,"endTime":1283.35,"body":"just stunning to her. And as she"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1279.0,"endTime":1283.35,"body":"would respond in this surprised,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1283.35,"endTime":1286.2,"body":"and she would challenge me, and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1283.35,"endTime":1286.2,"body":"that was a really an awesome"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1286.2,"endTime":1291.18,"body":"part, along with the therapist"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1286.2,"endTime":1291.18,"body":"of--it doesn't, you know,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1291.21,"endTime":1294.48,"body":"somebody doesn't just say to you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1291.21,"endTime":1294.48,"body":"one time, \"Hey, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1294.48,"endTime":1298.2,"body":"not true what you just said.\" It"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1294.48,"endTime":1298.2,"body":"takes many, many times for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1298.2,"endTime":1302.34,"body":"people to chip away at really"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1298.2,"endTime":1302.34,"body":"old, strong, powerful"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1302.34,"endTime":1303.12,"body":"narratives."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1303.15,"endTime":1303.54,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1303.75,"endTime":1307.56,"body":"So Travis, you've had this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1303.75,"endTime":1307.56,"body":"really beautiful life, where you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1307.56,"endTime":1310.8,"body":"weren't telling anyone, where"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1307.56,"endTime":1310.8,"body":"you weren't coming out? And now,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1311.49,"endTime":1314.19,"body":"a few years now, where you have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1311.49,"endTime":1314.19,"body":"been open. What's been the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1314.19,"endTime":1314.91,"body":"difference for you?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1315.92,"endTime":1320.81,"body":"Oh, boy, it's been. It's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1315.92,"endTime":1320.81,"body":"been night and day, it's been"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1320.81,"endTime":1325.07,"body":"interesting. Because on this"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1320.81,"endTime":1325.07,"body":"other side, it's incredibly"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1325.07,"endTime":1328.88,"body":"liberating. I mean, I honestly"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1325.07,"endTime":1328.88,"body":"don't feel shame anymore. In"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1328.88,"endTime":1333.02,"body":"fact, that was probably the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1328.88,"endTime":1333.02,"body":"biggest difference, I'd say the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1333.02,"endTime":1336.56,"body":"biggest difference I have felt"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1333.02,"endTime":1336.56,"body":"in my life, to be mostly just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1336.56,"endTime":1337.61,"body":"really shame free."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1338.329,"endTime":1340.519,"body":"I wish the listeners"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1338.329,"endTime":1340.519,"body":"could see me smiling, you just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1340.519,"endTime":1342.769,"body":"look so relieved and happy."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1342.799,"endTime":1348.229,"body":"I mean, I, I just, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1342.799,"endTime":1348.229,"body":"couldn't I didn't know that I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1348.229,"endTime":1350.179,"body":"was under the weight of such"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1348.229,"endTime":1350.179,"body":"pain."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1351.05,"endTime":1352.7,"body":"I keep thinking about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1351.05,"endTime":1352.7,"body":"the imagery of this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1352.7,"endTime":1356.63,"body":"conversation. And all three of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1352.7,"endTime":1356.63,"body":"us, when we talk about being"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1357.23,"endTime":1361.82,"body":"before coming out, the the words"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1357.23,"endTime":1361.82,"body":"are, are dark, and shadow and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1361.82,"endTime":1367.04,"body":"shame and weight. And then I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1361.82,"endTime":1367.04,"body":"just thinking that the question"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1367.04,"endTime":1369.77,"body":"we're discussing is, \"Should I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1367.04,"endTime":1369.77,"body":"come out?\" And that's how I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1369.77,"endTime":1374.36,"body":"knew, because I felt an absence"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1369.77,"endTime":1374.36,"body":"of light, and goodness, and I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1374.36,"endTime":1377.51,"body":"couldn't see my worth. And when"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1374.36,"endTime":1377.51,"body":"people would talk, like, I got"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1377.51,"endTime":1379.7,"body":"to a point where people would"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1377.51,"endTime":1379.7,"body":"compliment me or say something"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1379.7,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"nice about me and I would just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1379.7,"endTime":1382.58,"body":"completely dismiss it. Because I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1384.2,"body":"was so disgusted with myself."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1384.2,"endTime":1385.13,"body":"That's my entire life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1385.13,"endTime":1389.27,"body":"And it just anything"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1385.13,"endTime":1389.27,"body":"felt empty, you know. And so for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1389.27,"endTime":1393.62,"body":"me that just that imagery is so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1389.27,"endTime":1393.62,"body":"powerful, of coming into light"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1393.62,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"and, and having God inspire us"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1393.62,"endTime":1398.96,"body":"in our own ways to come out and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1401.42,"body":"get out of this place where we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1398.96,"endTime":1401.42,"body":"couldn't see our own worth."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1401.96,"endTime":1404.18,"body":"And Travis, like you, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1401.96,"endTime":1404.18,"body":"remember, I thought I was gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1404.18,"endTime":1407.57,"body":"take this to my grave. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1404.18,"endTime":1407.57,"body":"before I came out publicly, or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1407.63,"endTime":1411.56,"body":"to anyone I had been journaling"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1407.63,"endTime":1411.56,"body":"for for a long time. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1411.56,"endTime":1413.75,"body":"couldn't write my feelings in my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1411.56,"endTime":1413.75,"body":"journal, because I was too"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1413.75,"endTime":1415.73,"body":"afraid that my kids would read"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1413.75,"endTime":1415.73,"body":"it some day."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1415.73,"endTime":1416.33,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1416.3,"endTime":1418.97,"body":"So I had this secret"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1416.3,"endTime":1418.97,"body":"journal where I kept my thoughts"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1417.5,"endTime":1429.65,"body":"I think the the most"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1417.5,"endTime":1429.65,"body":"beautiful part of this journey"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1418.97,"endTime":1422.33,"body":"because I didn't want anyone to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1418.97,"endTime":1422.33,"body":"ever know. And then I came out"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1422.33,"endTime":1425.0,"body":"to my two best friends when I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1422.33,"endTime":1425.0,"body":"was 23. Then when I was 30, I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1425.0,"endTime":1428.6,"body":"start coming out publicly. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1425.0,"endTime":1428.6,"body":"remember coming out to an"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1428.6,"endTime":1430.67,"body":"Elder's Quorum, teaching an"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1428.6,"endTime":1430.67,"body":"Elders Quorum lesson, I had not"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1429.92,"endTime":1454.25,"body":"for me has been not necessarily"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1429.92,"endTime":1454.25,"body":"that I needed to come out"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1430.67,"endTime":1433.1,"body":"planned on doing that it just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1430.67,"endTime":1433.1,"body":"kind of happened organically. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1433.1,"endTime":1436.49,"body":"just felt the need to do that."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1433.1,"endTime":1436.49,"body":"And then more than a year later,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1436.49,"endTime":1439.07,"body":"I was talking to a member that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1436.49,"endTime":1439.07,"body":"bishopric and he told me that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1439.07,"endTime":1441.47,"body":"the thing he remembered most of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1439.07,"endTime":1441.47,"body":"the lesson was watching me sit"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1441.47,"endTime":1445.13,"body":"down in my chair after he said,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1441.47,"endTime":1445.13,"body":"\"Ben, I saw a literal weight com"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1445.13,"endTime":1449.12,"body":"off of you when that happened"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1445.13,"endTime":1449.12,"body":"\" And and to me, like that's wh"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1449.12,"endTime":1451.73,"body":"t being in the closet was lik"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1449.12,"endTime":1451.73,"body":", was having this burden on m"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1452.0,"endTime":1455.57,"body":". And that's how I knew I need"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1452.0,"endTime":1455.57,"body":"d to come out as I just realiz"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1455.57,"endTime":1457.64,"body":"d that I couldn't carry"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1455.57,"endTime":1457.64,"body":"t anymor"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1463.46,"endTime":1468.86,"body":"publicly that I'm gay, but that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1463.46,"endTime":1468.86,"body":"I needed to get out from under"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1469.13,"endTime":1473.6,"body":"the self-inflicted pain of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1469.13,"endTime":1473.6,"body":"trying to hide something."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1473.779,"endTime":1475.519,"body":"Do you wish you would come"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1473.779,"endTime":1475.519,"body":"out earlier in life?"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1477.46,"endTime":1483.25,"body":"Yeah, I think in some"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1477.46,"endTime":1483.25,"body":"ways, I really do because I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1483.25,"endTime":1489.76,"body":"think it it would have obviously"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1483.25,"endTime":1489.76,"body":"saved me a lot of years of pain"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1489.76,"endTime":1493.09,"body":"and suffering. But on the other"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1489.76,"endTime":1493.09,"body":"side of that, to be really"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1493.24,"endTime":1498.34,"body":"truthful with you, Ben, I'm glad"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1493.24,"endTime":1498.34,"body":"I didn't. And and here's a"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1498.34,"endTime":1504.16,"body":"couple reasons why. One is"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1498.34,"endTime":1504.16,"body":"sadly, I don't think I would"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1504.16,"endTime":1507.67,"body":"have had the opportunities of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1504.16,"endTime":1507.67,"body":"church leadership that I've had"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1508.27,"endTime":1514.36,"body":"had people known. I just think"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1508.27,"endTime":1514.36,"body":"that's the reality of that. I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1514.36,"endTime":1517.78,"body":"mean, had people known, maybe"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1514.36,"endTime":1517.78,"body":"particularly over the last 30"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1517.78,"endTime":1520.75,"body":"years, I don't think I would"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1517.78,"endTime":1520.75,"body":"have been called into a State"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1523.69,"body":"Presidency, I pretty sure I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1520.75,"endTime":1523.69,"body":"probably wouldn't have been"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1523.69,"endTime":1529.18,"body":"called to be a Mission"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1523.69,"endTime":1529.18,"body":"President, Bishop, and, and"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1529.18,"endTime":1532.33,"body":"actually, and not, you know, not"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1529.18,"endTime":1532.33,"body":"to be on the martyr train or"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1532.33,"endTime":1535.57,"body":"anything, but I can't imagine"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1532.33,"endTime":1535.57,"body":"really much of opportunity going"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1535.57,"endTime":1542.38,"body":"forward here. And it is what it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1535.57,"endTime":1542.38,"body":"is, but there's a there's a,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1543.22,"endTime":1546.91,"body":"there's a disappointment in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1543.22,"endTime":1546.91,"body":"that--there's a cost for me, in"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1546.91,"endTime":1551.29,"body":"particular, of coming out. And"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1546.91,"endTime":1551.29,"body":"another cost of that, that I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1551.29,"endTime":1553.99,"body":"think looking back of whether I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1551.29,"endTime":1553.99,"body":"would have done this or not, is"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1554.35,"endTime":1557.56,"body":"weighing the fact of what it's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1554.35,"endTime":1557.56,"body":"done to--not really done to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1559.15,"endTime":1561.67,"body":"relationships--but it's it's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1559.15,"endTime":1561.67,"body":"created a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1563.44,"endTime":1568.93,"body":"uncomfortableness with a lot of"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1563.44,"endTime":1568.93,"body":"people in my life. And I've had"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1568.93,"endTime":1574.21,"body":"to get to this place where I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1568.93,"endTime":1574.21,"body":"have to be okay that others"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1574.21,"endTime":1578.26,"body":"aren't okay with this part about"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1574.21,"endTime":1578.26,"body":"me. Because there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1578.26,"endTime":1581.47,"body":"wrong with being gay, there's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1578.26,"endTime":1581.47,"body":"nothing that--I just love that I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1581.47,"endTime":1585.58,"body":"can say--there's nothing bad or"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1581.47,"endTime":1585.58,"body":"wrong with this. Yeah, I just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1585.58,"endTime":1588.67,"body":"love that I'm not just going to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1585.58,"endTime":1588.67,"body":"say that, but I believe that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1588.97,"endTime":1592.42,"body":"with all my heart. So if"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1588.97,"endTime":1592.42,"body":"somebody else has a problem with"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1592.42,"endTime":1596.92,"body":"that, that's their problem."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1592.42,"endTime":1596.92,"body":"That's not my problem. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1596.92,"endTime":1600.37,"body":"do anything to anybody. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1596.92,"endTime":1600.37,"body":"create or cause them to feel"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1600.37,"endTime":1603.85,"body":"that way. It's just where"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1600.37,"endTime":1603.85,"body":"they're coming from with that"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1603.85,"endTime":1609.43,"body":"information. And, honestly, it's"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1603.85,"endTime":1609.43,"body":"hard for a lot of people in my"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1609.43,"endTime":1613.33,"body":"life to know what to do with"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1609.43,"endTime":1613.33,"body":"that. If that makes any sense."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1613.369,"endTime":1614.749,"body":"That's really, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1613.369,"endTime":1614.749,"body":"really interesting, because I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1614.749,"endTime":1617.659,"body":"feel like my experience has been"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1614.749,"endTime":1617.659,"body":"so different. And maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1617.659,"endTime":1619.999,"body":"because maybe it's a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1617.659,"endTime":1619.999,"body":"generational thing, or, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1619.999,"endTime":1622.129,"body":"know, you've been living in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1619.999,"endTime":1622.129,"body":"same place for such a long time."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1622.129,"endTime":1626.299,"body":"And I, I move a lot. And so when"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1622.129,"endTime":1626.299,"body":"I show up in a new place,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1626.299,"endTime":1629.599,"body":"everyone just knows I'm gay. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1626.299,"endTime":1629.599,"body":"so I feel like my coming out has"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1629.599,"endTime":1632.959,"body":"really deepened relationships."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1629.599,"endTime":1632.959,"body":"And I actually had trouble"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1632.959,"endTime":1635.659,"body":"thinking about a relationship"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1632.959,"endTime":1635.659,"body":"that has suffered from my coming"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1635.659,"endTime":1635.989,"body":"out."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1635.99,"endTime":1641.18,"body":"Yeah. But I think part"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1635.99,"endTime":1641.18,"body":"of it is maybe the age maybe the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1641.18,"endTime":1644.0,"body":"long term marriage or long term"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1641.18,"endTime":1644.0,"body":"church service. You can you can"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1644.0,"endTime":1647.3,"body":"imagine if both of you imagine"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1644.0,"endTime":1647.3,"body":"just now finding out that your"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1647.3,"endTime":1649.28,"body":"Mission President is gay."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1649.31,"endTime":1650.12,"body":"I'd be so proud of him."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1650.0,"endTime":1653.87,"body":"I mean, of course, you"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1650.0,"endTime":1653.87,"body":"would, but but at the same time,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1653.87,"endTime":1656.42,"body":"you could probably imagine for"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1653.87,"endTime":1656.42,"body":"some of the missionaries or"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1656.42,"endTime":1660.11,"body":"whatever that that would be"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1656.42,"endTime":1660.11,"body":"like, \"Whoa!\" Or imagine some"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1660.11,"endTime":1664.25,"body":"other, you know, icon in your"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1660.11,"endTime":1664.25,"body":"life or person in your life--it"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1665.45,"endTime":1669.74,"body":"just doesn't fit the picture"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1665.45,"endTime":1669.74,"body":"doesn't fit the, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1669.74,"endTime":1673.67,"body":"billing they're in, and it could"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1669.74,"endTime":1673.67,"body":"be a bit unsettling. I think,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1673.67,"endTime":1676.43,"body":"for some that they just don't,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1673.67,"endTime":1676.43,"body":"that's a lot more information,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1676.43,"endTime":1679.04,"body":"you know, you're seeing you guys"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1676.43,"endTime":1679.04,"body":"are seeing still, you're"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1679.04,"endTime":1682.19,"body":"younger, still, you know,"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1679.04,"endTime":1682.19,"body":"there's not all these decisions"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1682.19,"endTime":1685.46,"body":"reached in the world about what"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1682.19,"endTime":1685.46,"body":"this means for you, two. Whereas"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1685.46,"endTime":1688.7,"body":"I'm kind of more settled along"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1685.46,"endTime":1688.7,"body":"the way. And it's a lot more I"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1688.7,"endTime":1691.37,"body":"think, for people to have to"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1688.7,"endTime":1691.37,"body":"sort through and trying to find"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1691.37,"endTime":1694.64,"body":"meaning in, \"How can you be"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1691.37,"endTime":1694.64,"body":"married? Man, what do his kids"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1694.64,"endTime":1695.15,"body":"think?\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1695.75,"endTime":1698.45,"body":"They're shifting paradigms."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1695.75,"endTime":1698.45,"body":"The world isn't what they"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1698.45,"endTime":1698.9,"body":"thought it was."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1698.9,"endTime":1701.42,"body":"Yeah, it's a lot more."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1698.9,"endTime":1701.42,"body":"Yeah. \"What are the missionaries"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1701.42,"endTime":1704.66,"body":"thinking from his mission? What"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1701.42,"endTime":1704.66,"body":"are their parents thinking? My"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1704.66,"endTime":1707.84,"body":"son has a gay Mission"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1704.66,"endTime":1707.84,"body":"President?\" I think there's just"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1707.87,"endTime":1713.48,"body":"a bit more baggage. But I think"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1707.87,"endTime":1713.48,"body":"there's just a lot like you said"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1713.48,"endTime":1714.98,"body":"a lot more paradigms there"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1713.48,"endTime":1714.98,"body":"that..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1715.28,"endTime":1716.24,"body":"A lot of waves ."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1716.24,"endTime":1718.94,"body":"A lot more, yeah, waves"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1716.24,"endTime":1718.94,"body":"and places to disrupt a few more"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1718.94,"endTime":1719.87,"body":"places to disrupt."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1720.98,"endTime":1722.81,"body":"Travis, thanks for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1720.98,"endTime":1722.81,"body":"joining us. It was so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1722.81,"endTime":1724.67,"body":"interesting to hear your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1722.81,"endTime":1724.67,"body":"perspectives, and I think you're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1724.67,"endTime":1731.0,"body":"really brave. And I it makes me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1724.67,"endTime":1731.0,"body":"happy to see how happy you are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1731.27,"endTime":1735.47,"body":"that and it's so--I love what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1731.27,"endTime":1735.47,"body":"you said about about defeating"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1735.47,"endTime":1738.68,"body":"shame and and kind of living in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1735.47,"endTime":1738.68,"body":"the light. That's really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1738.68,"endTime":1741.14,"body":"beautiful. And I'm going to take"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1738.68,"endTime":1741.14,"body":"that home with me today."},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1741.92,"endTime":1743.72,"body":"Awesome. Great to be"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1741.92,"endTime":1743.72,"body":"with you guys. Thanks for all"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1743.72,"endTime":1744.98,"body":"your great work you're doing"},{"speaker":"Travis","startTime":1743.72,"endTime":1744.98,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1745.25,"endTime":1746.15,"body":"Thank you, Travis."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1746.9,"endTime":1748.73,"body":"Thank you for joining"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1746.9,"endTime":1748.73,"body":"us today. Please remember that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1748.73,"endTime":1750.98,"body":"we do not represent the Church"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1748.73,"endTime":1750.98,"body":"of Jesus Christ of Latter-day"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1750.98,"endTime":1753.53,"body":"Saints or Brigham Young"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1750.98,"endTime":1753.53,"body":"University. We're not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1753.53,"endTime":1756.11,"body":"be prescriptive or telling you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1753.53,"endTime":1756.11,"body":"on what to think or what to do."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1756.74,"endTime":1758.96,"body":"You heard just three"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1756.74,"endTime":1758.96,"body":"perspectives today, and there"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1758.96,"endTime":1761.21,"body":"are many, many more. We"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1758.96,"endTime":1761.21,"body":"encourage you to listen to other"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1761.21,"endTime":1764.15,"body":"voices and hear a wide variety"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1761.21,"endTime":1764.15,"body":"of experiences. If you would"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1764.15,"endTime":1766.31,"body":"like to submit a question or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1764.15,"endTime":1766.31,"body":"share a comment about today's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1766.31,"endTime":1769.46,"body":"episode, you can email us at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1766.31,"endTime":1769.46,"body":"questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1770.27,"endTime":1771.02,"body":"Until next time..."}]}