{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":5.76,"endTime":8.01,"body":"Welcome to questions"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":5.76,"endTime":8.01,"body":"from the closet. I'm Charlie"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":8.01,"endTime":8.37,"body":"Bird"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.49,"endTime":11.73,"body":"And I Ben Schilaty. Each"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.49,"endTime":11.73,"body":"episode we discuss a question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.73,"endTime":14.43,"body":"that we commonly get asked as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.73,"endTime":14.43,"body":"LGBTQ Latter-day Saints."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.64,"endTime":16.83,"body":"We are not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.64,"endTime":16.83,"body":"answer this question or come to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.83,"endTime":20.04,"body":"a consensus but simply sharing"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.83,"endTime":20.04,"body":"our perspectives. Today's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":20.04,"endTime":24.12,"body":"question is, what is it like to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":20.04,"endTime":24.12,"body":"be transgender? Ben and I are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":24.12,"endTime":26.73,"body":"not terribly diverse, and we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":24.12,"endTime":26.73,"body":"share many opinions and life"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":26.73,"endTime":30.48,"body":"experiences. For example,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":26.73,"endTime":30.48,"body":"neither of us owns a television."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":30.54,"endTime":32.37,"body":"I actually have never owned"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":30.54,"endTime":32.37,"body":"my own television."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":32.43,"endTime":33.54,"body":"I also have not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":33.6,"endTime":37.08,"body":"Yeah, I do watch a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":33.6,"endTime":37.08,"body":"Netflix on my computer. However,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":37.11,"endTime":40.41,"body":"there are some pretty big"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":37.11,"endTime":40.41,"body":"differences. For example, even"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":40.41,"endTime":43.47,"body":"though he doesn't have one,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":40.41,"endTime":43.47,"body":"Charlie is always on TV. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":43.47,"endTime":47.49,"body":"have never been on TV. But I do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":43.47,"endTime":47.49,"body":"watch a lot of TV. I watched a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.49,"endTime":50.4,"body":"lot of TV as a child because it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.49,"endTime":50.4,"body":"rains in Washington. So I would"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":50.4,"endTime":51.54,"body":"sit inside and watch TV."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":51.9,"endTime":53.73,"body":"I like to be on TV."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":54.24,"endTime":56.22,"body":"I think I've seen every"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":54.24,"endTime":56.22,"body":"episode of \"Saved by the Bell\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":56.22,"endTime":58.92,"body":"at least five times. Anyway,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":59.46,"endTime":61.89,"body":"We would like to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":59.46,"endTime":61.89,"body":"provide a variety of voices and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":61.89,"endTime":64.53,"body":"perspectives on our show. So"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":61.89,"endTime":64.53,"body":"today, we're joined by Ann."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":65.11,"endTime":67.18,"body":"Hello. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":65.11,"endTime":67.18,"body":"having me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":67.21,"endTime":71.14,"body":"Welcome Ann. So let's start"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":67.21,"endTime":71.14,"body":"off by by talking about what the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":71.14,"endTime":73.09,"body":"word \"transgender\" means. Do you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":71.14,"endTime":73.09,"body":"want to tell us what it means,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":73.15,"endTime":75.07,"body":"like the difference in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":73.15,"endTime":75.07,"body":"transgender and cisgender?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":75.36,"endTime":79.71,"body":"Well, transgender"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":75.36,"endTime":79.71,"body":"generally means a person whose"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":79.74,"endTime":83.55,"body":"gender identity or the gender"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":79.74,"endTime":83.55,"body":"that they envision themselves"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":83.58,"endTime":87.18,"body":"does not align with the sex that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":83.58,"endTime":87.18,"body":"they were assigned at birth."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":87.27,"endTime":91.05,"body":"Whereas cisgender is, is where"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":87.27,"endTime":91.05,"body":"everything matches up"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":91.5,"endTime":95.46,"body":"there--your gender identity, how"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":91.5,"endTime":95.46,"body":"you feel matches with your sex"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":95.46,"endTime":96.72,"body":"assigned at birth."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":96.78,"endTime":98.64,"body":"Okay, so being cisgender"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":96.78,"endTime":98.64,"body":"would be a more common"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":98.64,"endTime":99.33,"body":"experience."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":99.45,"endTime":99.69,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":99.69,"endTime":103.5,"body":"Where the sex assigned at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":99.69,"endTime":103.5,"body":"birth is how you identify and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":103.5,"endTime":104.01,"body":"how you feel."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":104.52,"endTime":105.18,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":105.3,"endTime":109.8,"body":"Okay. And Charlie and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":105.3,"endTime":109.8,"body":"we're not trans. But since we're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":109.8,"endTime":110.37,"body":"part of the LGBTQ.."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":110.37,"endTime":110.7,"body":"You're cisgender."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":110.73,"endTime":114.84,"body":"We're cisgender, yes, yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":110.73,"endTime":114.84,"body":"And, but we have get asked about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":114.84,"endTime":118.47,"body":"what it's like to be trans all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":114.84,"endTime":118.47,"body":"the time. And I feel inadequate"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":118.47,"endTime":120.78,"body":"doing that, like, answer a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":118.47,"endTime":120.78,"body":"of those questions."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":120.81,"endTime":123.03,"body":"Yeah, I think it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":120.81,"endTime":123.03,"body":"important to realize that gender"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":123.03,"endTime":125.73,"body":"identity is not the same as"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":123.03,"endTime":125.73,"body":"sexual orientation. They're two"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":125.73,"endTime":129.21,"body":"very different things. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":125.73,"endTime":129.21,"body":"someone's gender does not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":129.27,"endTime":131.1,"body":"determine their sexual"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":129.27,"endTime":131.1,"body":"orientation."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":131.61,"endTime":136.38,"body":"Exactly. Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":131.61,"endTime":136.38,"body":"Gender identity, your gender is"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":136.41,"endTime":139.89,"body":"who you are. And the sexual"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":136.41,"endTime":139.89,"body":"orientation is who you love, who"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":139.89,"endTime":143.16,"body":"you're attracted to. So very"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":139.89,"endTime":143.16,"body":"different. If any of you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":143.16,"endTime":147.96,"body":"listeners want to Google"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":143.16,"endTime":147.96,"body":"\"Gender-bread Person.\" Have you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":147.96,"endTime":148.41,"body":"seen that?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":148.56,"endTime":149.82,"body":"Of course, I've seen the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":148.56,"endTime":149.82,"body":"\"Gender-bread Person.\""},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":149.85,"endTime":150.33,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":150.0,"endTime":151.98,"body":"I've used it as a tool many"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":150.0,"endTime":151.98,"body":"times in teaching."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":151.98,"endTime":152.52,"body":"I have not..."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":152.51,"endTime":155.21,"body":"Good for you. Charlie,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":152.51,"endTime":155.21,"body":"you need to look it up. Okay."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":155.24,"endTime":156.62,"body":"goldstar. For Ben,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":157.49,"endTime":158.63,"body":"He's always one step"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":157.49,"endTime":158.63,"body":"ahead."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":159.17,"endTime":164.03,"body":"Yeah. It's an image"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":159.17,"endTime":164.03,"body":"that you'll easily find online"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":164.03,"endTime":168.47,"body":"that shows the difference"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":164.03,"endTime":168.47,"body":"between gender identity, sexual"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":168.47,"endTime":172.67,"body":"orientation, sex assigned at"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":168.47,"endTime":172.67,"body":"birth, and your presentation,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":172.7,"endTime":174.74,"body":"meaning how the world sees you."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":174.96,"endTime":178.14,"body":"And I think it's easy,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":174.96,"endTime":178.14,"body":"easier for people who identify"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":178.14,"endTime":181.68,"body":"as cisgender, heterosexual to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":178.14,"endTime":181.68,"body":"under... maybe picture the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":181.71,"endTime":184.02,"body":"lesbian and gay experience,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":181.71,"endTime":184.02,"body":"because they know what it's like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":184.02,"endTime":187.38,"body":"to feel attracted to someone,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":184.02,"endTime":187.38,"body":"and to talk about those"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":187.38,"endTime":189.6,"body":"feelings. So that they can say,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":187.38,"endTime":189.6,"body":"\"Well, oh, well, if I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":189.6,"endTime":192.72,"body":"attracted to women, then they're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":189.6,"endTime":192.72,"body":"just attracted to men.\" And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":192.72,"endTime":195.24,"body":"that's kind of an easier thing."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":192.72,"endTime":195.24,"body":"That kind of easy, easy to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":195.24,"endTime":198.12,"body":"envision, but we don't often"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":195.24,"endTime":198.12,"body":"think about our gender identity."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":198.66,"endTime":200.85,"body":"And so since we don't think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":198.66,"endTime":200.85,"body":"about it, when someone has a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":200.85,"endTime":203.19,"body":"gender identity that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":200.85,"endTime":203.19,"body":"match with what they were"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":203.19,"endTime":206.16,"body":"assigned at birth, it's it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":203.19,"endTime":206.16,"body":"hard to wrap our heads around."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":206.49,"endTime":210.09,"body":"Yeah, I would say, the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":206.49,"endTime":210.09,"body":"majority of cisgender"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":210.09,"endTime":213.75,"body":"individuals, you two, rarely"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":210.09,"endTime":213.75,"body":"think about your gender"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":213.75,"endTime":217.29,"body":"identity. I'm assuming your"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":213.75,"endTime":217.29,"body":"gender identity is male."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":217.32,"endTime":219.96,"body":"Yeah, because you've heard"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":217.32,"endTime":219.96,"body":"my voice."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":220.92,"endTime":226.41,"body":"It's definitely deep"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":220.92,"endTime":226.41,"body":"and sexy Ben. But for a"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":226.41,"endTime":230.76,"body":"transgender individual, they are"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":226.41,"endTime":230.76,"body":"constantly thinking about their"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":230.76,"endTime":234.72,"body":"gender identity. And there was a"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":230.76,"endTime":234.72,"body":"talk by a General Authority"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":235.2,"endTime":237.93,"body":"awhile ago, I think they were"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":235.2,"endTime":237.93,"body":"talking about, well trying to"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":237.93,"endTime":242.25,"body":"explain what salt tastes like to"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":237.93,"endTime":242.25,"body":"someone who's never tasted salt,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":242.31,"endTime":246.27,"body":"and how difficult that is for"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":242.31,"endTime":246.27,"body":"someone to grasp, really grasp"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":246.27,"endTime":247.86,"body":"what it what it tastes like."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":248.07,"endTime":250.47,"body":"And I think that's an"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":248.07,"endTime":250.47,"body":"important point. As much as we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":250.71,"endTime":253.08,"body":"as people who are cisgender"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":250.71,"endTime":253.08,"body":"trying to understand the trans"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":253.08,"endTime":255.15,"body":"experiences, we're trying to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":253.08,"endTime":255.15,"body":"empathize and walk in your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":255.15,"endTime":258.0,"body":"shoes. We're not gonna know what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":255.15,"endTime":258.0,"body":"it's like, because we're not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":258.0,"endTime":258.09,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":258.09,"endTime":258.75,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":258.84,"endTime":261.15,"body":"And obviously, you speak"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":258.84,"endTime":261.15,"body":"for all transgender people."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":261.24,"endTime":262.86,"body":"And that's a NO."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":262.92,"endTime":263.31,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":263.0,"endTime":269.27,"body":"A really strong, hard"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":263.0,"endTime":269.27,"body":"No. One transgender person's"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":269.27,"endTime":273.17,"body":"story could be very different"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":269.27,"endTime":273.17,"body":"from another person and their"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":273.17,"endTime":276.77,"body":"path and their experiences."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":273.17,"endTime":276.77,"body":"While we all have some"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":276.77,"endTime":279.83,"body":"similarities in our stories are"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":276.77,"endTime":279.83,"body":"very unique."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":280.1,"endTime":282.02,"body":"Well, we all are very"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":280.1,"endTime":282.02,"body":"glad you're here and we're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":282.02,"endTime":284.54,"body":"excited to get to know a little"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":282.02,"endTime":284.54,"body":"bit more about your experience."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":284.57,"endTime":286.52,"body":"Thanks for having me."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":284.57,"endTime":286.52,"body":"I'm glad to be here."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":286.61,"endTime":288.5,"body":"And Charlie's worried that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":286.61,"endTime":288.5,"body":"he's going to say something rude"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":288.5,"endTime":289.61,"body":"or offensive on accident."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":289.97,"endTime":292.31,"body":"I promise you, you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":289.97,"endTime":292.31,"body":"don't need to worry about that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":292.34,"endTime":296.69,"body":"with me. I like it when people"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":292.34,"endTime":296.69,"body":"ask me questions when they're"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":296.69,"endTime":300.32,"body":"sincere about it because I want"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":296.69,"endTime":300.32,"body":"people to understand."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":300.32,"endTime":303.8,"body":"And so Ann, help us"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":300.32,"endTime":303.8,"body":"understand when you first"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":303.8,"endTime":306.23,"body":"started to realize that the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":303.8,"endTime":306.23,"body":"gender you were assigned at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":306.23,"endTime":308.36,"body":"birth didn't really match how"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":306.23,"endTime":308.36,"body":"you felt?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":308.73,"endTime":314.37,"body":"Well, my earliest"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":308.73,"endTime":314.37,"body":"memory was probably five or six,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":314.67,"endTime":319.23,"body":"I didn't quite have the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":314.67,"endTime":319.23,"body":"vocabulary to describe what what"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":319.23,"endTime":323.22,"body":"I was experiencing, but I knew"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":319.23,"endTime":323.22,"body":"something was about me was"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":323.22,"endTime":328.11,"body":"different. Both my dad and my"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":323.22,"endTime":328.11,"body":"grandpa, they were very manly"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":328.11,"endTime":332.34,"body":"men, tough guys. And you know,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":328.11,"endTime":332.34,"body":"boys don't cry, that type of"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":332.34,"endTime":336.18,"body":"thing. So I quickly learned that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":332.34,"endTime":336.18,"body":"the way I was different was not"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":336.18,"endTime":341.4,"body":"okay. I, you know, did that, you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":336.18,"endTime":341.4,"body":"know, pray, you know, take this"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":341.4,"endTime":346.11,"body":"away make me just like all the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":341.4,"endTime":346.11,"body":"other boys, there was a huge"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":346.11,"endTime":350.58,"body":"amount of shame. I just did not"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":346.11,"endTime":350.58,"body":"see a future for me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":350.88,"endTime":353.07,"body":"So your sex assigned at"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":350.88,"endTime":353.07,"body":"birth was male. But inside you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":353.07,"endTime":354.39,"body":"always felt like you were"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":353.07,"endTime":354.39,"body":"female."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":354.54,"endTime":355.14,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":355.5,"endTime":357.72,"body":"I had an experienced when I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":355.5,"endTime":357.72,"body":"was a child--and I just want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":357.75,"endTime":360.24,"body":"see maybe how my experience is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":357.75,"endTime":360.24,"body":"different than yours."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":360.27,"endTime":360.81,"body":"Oh, definitely."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":360.81,"endTime":363.0,"body":"So when I was like seven or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":360.81,"endTime":363.0,"body":"eight, I remember talking,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":363.03,"endTime":364.83,"body":"talking to some friends and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":363.03,"endTime":364.83,"body":"saying that I wished I were a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":364.83,"endTime":368.04,"body":"girl. And the reason was,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":364.83,"endTime":368.04,"body":"because this was the early 90s."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":368.04,"endTime":370.47,"body":"And in hot pink was super cool."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":368.04,"endTime":370.47,"body":"I really wanted to wear pink,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":370.5,"endTime":374.4,"body":"but I couldn't because I was a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":370.5,"endTime":374.4,"body":"boy. And so I wanted to--so I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":374.4,"endTime":378.21,"body":"wanted to, like wear some of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":374.4,"endTime":378.21,"body":"these, like, pink things that my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":378.24,"endTime":380.34,"body":"that I saw women wearing. So I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":378.24,"endTime":380.34,"body":"was like, \"I want to be a girl,\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":380.37,"endTime":383.34,"body":"in my mind, because I wanted to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":380.37,"endTime":383.34,"body":"wear hot pink. It was the early"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":383.34,"endTime":387.09,"body":"90s, alright?  How would that be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":383.34,"endTime":387.09,"body":"different from from what you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":387.09,"endTime":387.78,"body":"were experiencing?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":388.38,"endTime":392.04,"body":"There definitely is a"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":388.38,"endTime":392.04,"body":"difference between someone who"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":392.04,"endTime":396.69,"body":"is gay, but as a child, just,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":392.04,"endTime":396.69,"body":"you know, who liked girl things,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":396.81,"endTime":400.98,"body":"versus somebody whose gender"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":396.81,"endTime":400.98,"body":"identity does not match up with"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":400.98,"endTime":402.69,"body":"their sex assigned at birth."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":402.72,"endTime":404.46,"body":"Yeah, I just wanted to like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":402.72,"endTime":404.46,"body":"\"My Little Ponies\" and not be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":404.46,"endTime":405.15,"body":"teased for it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":406.23,"endTime":406.71,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":407.07,"endTime":409.47,"body":"Which you shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":407.07,"endTime":409.47,"body":"teased for it. Ben,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":409.89,"endTime":411.57,"body":"I did have a lot though I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":409.89,"endTime":411.57,"body":"did have quite the collection."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":412.44,"endTime":415.41,"body":"Well, I mean, there's a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":412.44,"endTime":415.41,"body":"difference between wanting to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":415.41,"endTime":417.75,"body":"maybe break gender stereotypes."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":415.41,"endTime":417.75,"body":"So being comfortable with your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":417.75,"endTime":420.93,"body":"own gender. Versus Ben, you said"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":417.75,"endTime":420.93,"body":"you wanted to wear the clothes."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":420.93,"endTime":423.18,"body":"You didn't want to be the person"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":420.93,"endTime":423.18,"body":"in the clothes, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":423.63,"endTime":428.1,"body":"Yeah. I wasn't allowed"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":423.63,"endTime":428.1,"body":"to watch Jerry Springer growing"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":428.1,"endTime":432.18,"body":"up. But of course, when you're"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":428.1,"endTime":432.18,"body":"as a teenager, when you're told"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":432.18,"endTime":435.18,"body":"no, that just makes you want to"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":432.18,"endTime":435.18,"body":"do it more."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":435.21,"endTime":435.78,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":435.81,"endTime":440.82,"body":"And so I late at"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":435.81,"endTime":440.82,"body":"night, I snuck snuck and watched"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":440.91,"endTime":444.9,"body":"an episode. And it was an"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":440.91,"endTime":444.9,"body":"episode about you know, there"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":444.9,"endTime":449.55,"body":"was a transgender girl on there."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":444.9,"endTime":449.55,"body":"And that was I just remember"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":449.64,"endTime":454.62,"body":"saying to myself, \"I never want"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":449.64,"endTime":454.62,"body":"to be that.\" They were referring"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":454.62,"endTime":459.99,"body":"to her as \"it\" or \"thing,\" or I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":454.62,"endTime":459.99,"body":"just made me..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":461.55,"endTime":464.1,"body":"Well, it seems like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":461.55,"endTime":464.1,"body":"that would be kind of like the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":464.1,"endTime":466.35,"body":"manifestation of something. You"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":464.1,"endTime":466.35,"body":"were scared of?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":466.47,"endTime":466.86,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":466.89,"endTime":469.74,"body":"And also the way that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":466.89,"endTime":469.74,"body":"that individual was treated was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":469.77,"endTime":473.94,"body":"sounds very poorly and othering"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":469.77,"endTime":473.94,"body":"and dehumanizing, and why would"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":473.94,"endTime":477.0,"body":"you want to succumb yourself or"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":473.94,"endTime":477.0,"body":"submit yourself to that type of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":477.0,"endTime":477.6,"body":"treatment?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":477.81,"endTime":481.65,"body":"Yeah, internalized"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":477.81,"endTime":481.65,"body":"transphobia that's very much a"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":481.65,"endTime":482.28,"body":"thing. And..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":482.52,"endTime":485.43,"body":"So there was a time in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":482.52,"endTime":485.43,"body":"your life when you presented"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":485.43,"endTime":489.12,"body":"yourself and were referred to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":485.43,"endTime":489.12,"body":"with with male pronouns."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":489.15,"endTime":489.66,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":489.66,"endTime":491.76,"body":"And then you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":489.66,"endTime":491.76,"body":"transitioned into presenting as"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":491.76,"endTime":496.71,"body":"a female, the the gender that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":491.76,"endTime":496.71,"body":"you feel like you are, and, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":496.71,"endTime":499.29,"body":"now people refer to you in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":496.71,"endTime":499.29,"body":"female pronouns, and you changed"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":499.29,"endTime":501.99,"body":"your name? Can you talk a little"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":499.29,"endTime":501.99,"body":"bit more about that experience"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":501.99,"endTime":503.04,"body":"what that was like?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":504.24,"endTime":505.35,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":506.91,"endTime":509.22,"body":"Basically, I just asked"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":506.91,"endTime":509.22,"body":"you, what's it like to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":509.22,"endTime":510.15,"body":"transgender?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":512.46,"endTime":516.6,"body":"That's, that's totally"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":512.46,"endTime":516.6,"body":"okay. That's totally okay. And"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":516.6,"endTime":521.31,"body":"again, I'm just speaking for my"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":516.6,"endTime":521.31,"body":"experience and not for the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.39,"body":"transgender community or other"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":521.31,"endTime":525.39,"body":"transgender individuals. Most of"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":525.39,"endTime":530.94,"body":"us, of course, wish there was"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":525.39,"endTime":530.94,"body":"some magic wand or magic pill"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":530.94,"endTime":535.44,"body":"that we could just take to just"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":530.94,"endTime":535.44,"body":"just like that--snap--just just"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":535.92,"endTime":540.21,"body":"switch us over and make us the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":535.92,"endTime":540.21,"body":"right way how we were supposed"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":540.21,"endTime":544.44,"body":"to be. That doesn't exist. And"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":540.21,"endTime":544.44,"body":"that's not real, unfortunately."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":545.1,"endTime":550.5,"body":"And transitioning does not"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":545.1,"endTime":550.5,"body":"happen overnight, or just over a"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":550.5,"endTime":556.53,"body":"few months, years, it takes"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":550.5,"endTime":556.53,"body":"years. And there's a lot that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":556.53,"endTime":562.38,"body":"goes into it. There's social"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":556.53,"endTime":562.38,"body":"transitioning, which, like you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":562.38,"endTime":567.36,"body":"said, going by a different name,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":562.38,"endTime":567.36,"body":"you know, coming out to people,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":567.72,"endTime":572.31,"body":"changing your pronouns to--in my"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":567.72,"endTime":572.31,"body":"case--\"she/her and hers.\""},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":573.72,"endTime":578.28,"body":"Medical transitioning, which"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":573.72,"endTime":578.28,"body":"would be hormone therapy,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":579.27,"endTime":584.79,"body":"surgeries to kind of make"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":579.27,"endTime":584.79,"body":"yourself feel more like the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":584.79,"endTime":589.26,"body":"gender you are, and legal"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":584.79,"endTime":589.26,"body":"transitioning, which would be"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":589.29,"endTime":593.61,"body":"legally changing your name, and"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":589.29,"endTime":593.61,"body":"legally, legally changing your"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":594.0,"endTime":597.81,"body":"gender marker, so like on your"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":594.0,"endTime":597.81,"body":"driver's license, the M or the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":597.81,"endTime":598.26,"body":"F."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":598.87,"endTime":601.57,"body":"So can a person"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":598.87,"endTime":601.57,"body":"socially transition but not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":602.14,"endTime":603.25,"body":"medically transition?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":603.49,"endTime":603.91,"body":"Oh, yeah"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":603.94,"endTime":604.72,"body":"Is that common?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":605.05,"endTime":609.43,"body":"There are so many"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":605.05,"endTime":609.43,"body":"different I, at first, I thought"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":609.43,"endTime":613.27,"body":"there was only, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":609.43,"endTime":613.27,"body":"thought I can't do this. I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":613.27,"endTime":617.29,"body":"either have to choose between"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":613.27,"endTime":617.29,"body":"transition all the way or not."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":617.32,"endTime":621.46,"body":"Those, I thought, were my only"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":617.32,"endTime":621.46,"body":"two choices. But there's so much"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":621.49,"endTime":626.29,"body":"in between those two there, I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":621.49,"endTime":626.29,"body":"have lots of friends who have"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":626.29,"endTime":630.07,"body":"socially transitioned, but have"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":626.29,"endTime":630.07,"body":"done nothing medically or"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":630.16,"endTime":635.2,"body":"legally. And, yeah, it's just"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":630.16,"endTime":635.2,"body":"every trans person you meet as"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":635.23,"endTime":639.4,"body":"their path is unique to them,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":635.23,"endTime":639.4,"body":"and very personalized. So."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":639.58,"endTime":642.61,"body":"So transitioning, is it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":639.58,"endTime":642.61,"body":"safe to say that it's, it's more"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":642.61,"endTime":645.55,"body":"about getting to a place where"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":642.61,"endTime":645.55,"body":"you're comfortable with who you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":645.55,"endTime":648.37,"body":"are and how you're treated? And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":645.55,"endTime":648.37,"body":"how you view yourself?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":649.0,"endTime":652.42,"body":"I like that. Yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":649.0,"endTime":652.42,"body":"like that, Charlie, because I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":652.42,"endTime":656.05,"body":"would like to think that it"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":652.42,"endTime":656.05,"body":"means being okay with who you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":656.35,"endTime":659.98,"body":"are--somehow getting to a place"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":656.35,"endTime":659.98,"body":"where you're okay with yourself"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":659.98,"endTime":662.59,"body":"and your journey and where your"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":659.98,"endTime":662.59,"body":"path is going."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":662.83,"endTime":665.83,"body":"Do people ask you to what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":662.83,"endTime":665.83,"body":"extent you've transitioned?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":666.97,"endTime":667.63,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":667.96,"endTime":668.77,"body":"What is that like?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":671.54,"endTime":676.07,"body":"Well, there are, of"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":671.54,"endTime":676.07,"body":"course, different ways that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":676.07,"endTime":679.73,"body":"people ask this question. Some"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":676.07,"endTime":679.73,"body":"people will just right out ask,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":679.76,"endTime":681.92,"body":"you know, \"What surgeries have"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":679.76,"endTime":681.92,"body":"you had? Have you had"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":681.92,"endTime":686.0,"body":"surgeries?\" Other people will"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":681.92,"endTime":686.0,"body":"ask it the way you have, you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":686.0,"endTime":690.47,"body":"know, \"How far have you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":686.0,"endTime":690.47,"body":"transitioned?\" And which, you"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":690.47,"endTime":695.69,"body":"know--would you be okay, if I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":690.47,"endTime":695.69,"body":"asked you? You don't go around"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":695.69,"endTime":697.13,"body":"asking people?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":697.0,"endTime":699.58,"body":"Well, it probably feels"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":697.0,"endTime":699.58,"body":"uncomfortable and inappropriate"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":699.58,"endTime":702.82,"body":"to be asking someone, especially"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":699.58,"endTime":702.82,"body":"if you don't have a close"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":702.82,"endTime":705.73,"body":"relationship with them, like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":702.82,"endTime":705.73,"body":"details about their genitalia."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":705.85,"endTime":707.41,"body":"Exactly, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":707.44,"endTime":709.54,"body":"And I found that when I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":707.44,"endTime":709.54,"body":"come out to people, some people"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":709.54,"endTime":712.18,"body":"feel they have the right to ask"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":709.54,"endTime":712.18,"body":"me about my sexual history,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":712.51,"endTime":717.34,"body":"Which of course would"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":712.51,"endTime":717.34,"body":"be inappropriate and yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":717.82,"endTime":722.08,"body":"Again, it's it's about learning"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":717.82,"endTime":722.08,"body":"and understanding how to love"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":722.08,"endTime":725.14,"body":"and support people who are"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":722.08,"endTime":725.14,"body":"different than you."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":725.74,"endTime":728.41,"body":"It kind of sounds like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":725.74,"endTime":728.41,"body":"like, understanding versus"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":728.41,"endTime":731.98,"body":"curiosity. You know, like, if"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":728.41,"endTime":731.98,"body":"someone's asking things to truly"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":731.98,"endTime":735.4,"body":"understand it and know who Ann"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":731.98,"endTime":735.4,"body":"is and how she feels"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":736.24,"endTime":738.37,"body":"comfortable--versus just curious"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":736.24,"endTime":738.37,"body":"about something that seems"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":738.4,"endTime":739.09,"body":"peculiar."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":739.36,"endTime":744.28,"body":"Right. Right. And I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":739.36,"endTime":744.28,"body":"understand why people would be"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":744.28,"endTime":748.57,"body":"curious, I get it, but that it's"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":744.28,"endTime":748.57,"body":"not really important."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":748.84,"endTime":749.26,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":749.86,"endTime":752.23,"body":"So Ann, if we could go back"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":749.86,"endTime":752.23,"body":"a little bit to those those"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":752.23,"endTime":755.2,"body":"months, and maybe few years"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":752.23,"endTime":755.2,"body":"before you started to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":755.38,"endTime":759.91,"body":"transition, if we could step"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":755.38,"endTime":759.91,"body":"into your head those months"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":759.91,"endTime":760.72,"body":"before--what was going on in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":759.91,"endTime":760.72,"body":"there?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":760.66,"endTime":765.73,"body":"Warning, Ben, that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":760.66,"endTime":765.73,"body":"won't be a safe play. It will be"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":765.76,"endTime":771.22,"body":"crazy. I was pretty torn."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":765.76,"endTime":771.22,"body":"Because in my mind, being"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":771.22,"endTime":776.65,"body":"transgender meant that I would"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":771.22,"endTime":776.65,"body":"lose my job. I would--my family"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":776.65,"endTime":779.86,"body":"would disown me, you know, my I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":776.65,"endTime":779.86,"body":"would lose all my friends. Of"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":779.86,"endTime":785.26,"body":"course, I would get divorced and"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":779.86,"endTime":785.26,"body":"not be able to see my child. And"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":786.37,"endTime":791.29,"body":"I would I would pretty much have"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":786.37,"endTime":791.29,"body":"to move away and start a whole"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":791.29,"endTime":796.81,"body":"new life. And I, I envisioned"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":791.29,"endTime":796.81,"body":"for some reason that was San"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":796.81,"endTime":798.88,"body":"Francisco because the thought..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":799.45,"endTime":799.99,"body":"The Mecca..."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":799.99,"endTime":801.94,"body":"Oh, yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":799.99,"endTime":801.94,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":801.94,"endTime":803.65,"body":"Who can afford the Bay Area"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":801.94,"endTime":803.65,"body":"these days??"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":803.68,"endTime":804.1,"body":"No one."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":804.1,"endTime":808.66,"body":"I don't know. Yeah, but in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":804.1,"endTime":808.66,"body":"my mind, that was always like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":808.96,"endTime":813.7,"body":"\"Oh, if I ever do this, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":808.96,"endTime":813.7,"body":"where I would move to and start"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":813.7,"endTime":818.38,"body":"a new life.\" So that was very"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":813.7,"endTime":818.38,"body":"scary. That was really scary."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":818.74,"endTime":824.62,"body":"And it was also scary to my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":818.74,"endTime":824.62,"body":"wife. I'm married. It took a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":824.62,"endTime":829.66,"body":"while to finally get to a place"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":824.62,"endTime":829.66,"body":"where I could say, \"Yes, this is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":829.66,"endTime":834.46,"body":"who I am.\" And that brought on a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":829.66,"endTime":834.46,"body":"whole different, like, well,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":834.46,"endTime":838.57,"body":"what then what do I do? And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":834.46,"endTime":838.57,"body":"where do I go? and..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":839.26,"endTime":841.33,"body":"What was going on that led you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":839.26,"endTime":841.33,"body":"to a place where you just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":841.33,"endTime":843.16,"body":"couldn't continue how things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":841.33,"endTime":843.16,"body":"were?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":846.67,"endTime":854.05,"body":"When I started to make"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":846.67,"endTime":854.05,"body":"plans to end my life. That was"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":855.04,"endTime":859.78,"body":"pretty much like maybe I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":855.04,"endTime":859.78,"body":"should--before I do that--try"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":859.78,"endTime":861.46,"body":"something different."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":863.92,"endTime":865.99,"body":"And I'm so sorry, that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":863.92,"endTime":865.99,"body":"sounds like a terrifying time."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":868.33,"endTime":870.37,"body":"So walk us through what happened"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":868.33,"endTime":870.37,"body":"what's happened in the years"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":870.37,"endTime":872.74,"body":"since like, like, if we could go"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":870.37,"endTime":872.74,"body":"into your head now what would we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":872.74,"endTime":873.49,"body":"be experiencing?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":875.08,"endTime":880.66,"body":"Wow. Transitioning at"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":875.08,"endTime":880.66,"body":"work was scary, but they've been"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":880.99,"endTime":887.95,"body":"very supportive. Lost a few"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":880.99,"endTime":887.95,"body":"friends, but I gained so many"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":887.95,"endTime":894.25,"body":"more friends than I ever would"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":887.95,"endTime":894.25,"body":"have before. My family, they was"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":894.25,"endTime":898.18,"body":"hard for them to take. A couple"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":894.25,"endTime":898.18,"body":"of my siblings didn't talk to me"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":898.18,"endTime":902.59,"body":"for a while but you know after"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":898.18,"endTime":902.59,"body":"years and years, I, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":902.65,"endTime":908.53,"body":"they have since apologized and"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":902.65,"endTime":908.53,"body":"wanted me back in their life. So"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":909.49,"endTime":913.96,"body":"realize that the only thing that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":909.49,"endTime":913.96,"body":"really matters is love and that"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":914.08,"endTime":916.75,"body":"you love others."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":917.38,"endTime":918.85,"body":"Are you still married"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":917.38,"endTime":918.85,"body":"to your wife?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":919.38,"endTime":925.5,"body":"I am surprisingly. We"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":919.38,"endTime":925.5,"body":"got married in the Bountiful"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":925.5,"endTime":932.28,"body":"temple about 20 years ago, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":925.5,"endTime":932.28,"body":"both were starting to make plans"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":932.28,"endTime":936.81,"body":"to divorce when I when I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":932.28,"endTime":936.81,"body":"admitted that I was transgender."},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":937.62,"endTime":942.75,"body":"But we kind of took a step back,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":937.62,"endTime":942.75,"body":"and why don't we just Why? Why"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":942.75,"endTime":945.69,"body":"do we have to get divorced?"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":942.75,"endTime":945.69,"body":"Everybody does, of course, but"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":945.72,"endTime":950.73,"body":"why do we have to? And so we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":945.72,"endTime":950.73,"body":"just decided to, you know, we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.73,"endTime":954.24,"body":"still loved each other. So we"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":950.73,"endTime":954.24,"body":"just decided to just see how"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":954.24,"endTime":958.68,"body":"things go. And, you know, it's,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":954.24,"endTime":958.68,"body":"like I said, if it had happened"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":958.68,"endTime":962.76,"body":"overnight, or over a few months,"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":958.68,"endTime":962.76,"body":"you know, we wouldn't have"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":962.76,"endTime":966.54,"body":"stayed married. But"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":962.76,"endTime":966.54,"body":"transitioning takes years. And I"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":966.54,"endTime":970.86,"body":"think I probably took it slower"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":966.54,"endTime":970.86,"body":"than a lot of transgender"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":970.86,"endTime":972.45,"body":"people. And that's probably"},{"speaker":"Unknown","startTime":970.86,"endTime":972.45,"body":"helped."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":973.47,"endTime":975.54,"body":"Help us understand why it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":973.47,"endTime":975.54,"body":"was important to use different"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":975.54,"endTime":978.12,"body":"pronouns to switch from"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":975.54,"endTime":978.12,"body":"he/him/his pronouns,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":978.12,"endTime":978.39,"body":"she/her/hers."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":979.92,"endTime":983.91,"body":"When someone does"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":979.92,"endTime":983.91,"body":"misgendered me it, it feels kind"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":983.91,"endTime":987.45,"body":"of like putting a rubber band"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":983.91,"endTime":987.45,"body":"around your wrist and pulling it"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":987.45,"endTime":989.73,"body":"and letting it go. It's just..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":990.12,"endTime":990.75,"body":"Startling."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":990.78,"endTime":994.5,"body":"Yeah, it is Starling."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":990.78,"endTime":994.5,"body":"And in a way it feels like"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":994.5,"endTime":997.89,"body":"they're saying, \"You're wrong. I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":994.5,"endTime":997.89,"body":"don't believe you.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":998.8,"endTime":1000.66,"body":"Or maybe even \"I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":998.8,"endTime":1000.66,"body":"even accept you.\""},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1000.69,"endTime":1003.36,"body":"Yeah, if they're doing"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1000.69,"endTime":1003.36,"body":"it maliciously. I mean, if"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1003.36,"endTime":1006.63,"body":"they're, you know, honest"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1003.36,"endTime":1006.63,"body":"mistake, that's different. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1006.69,"endTime":1008.76,"body":"\"I don't accept you. I don't"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1006.69,"endTime":1008.76,"body":"believe you.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1009.72,"endTime":1012.51,"body":"If a If a parent came and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1009.72,"endTime":1012.51,"body":"talked to you and said, \"My"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1012.54,"endTime":1016.38,"body":"teenage child just came out as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1012.54,"endTime":1016.38,"body":"transgender.\" What advice would"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1016.38,"endTime":1017.13,"body":"you give that parent?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1018.62,"endTime":1024.23,"body":"Listen to your child,"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1018.62,"endTime":1024.23,"body":"don't try to tell them they're"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1024.23,"endTime":1030.47,"body":"wrong, or, you know, they should"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1024.23,"endTime":1030.47,"body":"do handle it some certain way."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1030.47,"endTime":1036.44,"body":"But just just listen and be"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1030.47,"endTime":1036.44,"body":"there. And it'll take time, but"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1037.25,"endTime":1039.29,"body":"everything will work out."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1039.8,"endTime":1041.66,"body":"Could you tell us about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1039.8,"endTime":1041.66,"body":"your faith?"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1043.01,"endTime":1047.15,"body":"Wow, that's a tricky"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1043.01,"endTime":1047.15,"body":"one. But I do know that my"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1047.15,"endTime":1052.4,"body":"Heavenly Father loves me. And I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1047.15,"endTime":1052.4,"body":"do have a testimony of the"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1052.4,"endTime":1057.05,"body":"gospel, and of my Savior, Jesus"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1052.4,"endTime":1057.05,"body":"Christ."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1057.87,"endTime":1059.91,"body":"Well, Ann thank you for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1057.87,"endTime":1059.91,"body":"joining us today. And thank you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1059.91,"endTime":1063.39,"body":"for your openness and honesty,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1059.91,"endTime":1063.39,"body":"and hopefully this podcast will"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1063.39,"endTime":1065.31,"body":"be able to start some"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1063.39,"endTime":1065.31,"body":"conversations and that other"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1065.31,"endTime":1069.0,"body":"people will be able to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1065.31,"endTime":1069.0,"body":"familiarize themselves with the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1069.0,"endTime":1071.67,"body":"transgender experience to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1069.0,"endTime":1071.67,"body":"able to empathize and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1071.67,"endTime":1072.27,"body":"understand."},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1073.05,"endTime":1075.45,"body":"Thank you guys, I"},{"speaker":"Ann Pack","startTime":1073.05,"endTime":1075.45,"body":"appreciate you both having me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.66,"endTime":1078.87,"body":"Of course. Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.66,"endTime":1078.87,"body":"joining us today. Please"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1078.87,"endTime":1080.82,"body":"remember that we do not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1078.87,"endTime":1080.82,"body":"represent the Church of Jesus"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1080.82,"endTime":1083.19,"body":"Christ of Latter-day Saints or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1080.82,"endTime":1083.19,"body":"Brigham Young University. We are"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1083.19,"endTime":1085.8,"body":"not trying to be prescriptive or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1083.19,"endTime":1085.8,"body":"tell anyone what to think or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1085.8,"endTime":1086.25,"body":"what to do."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1086.43,"endTime":1087.93,"body":"You heard three"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1086.43,"endTime":1087.93,"body":"perspectives, and there are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1087.93,"endTime":1090.87,"body":"many, many more. We encourage"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1087.93,"endTime":1090.87,"body":"you to listen to other voices"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1090.87,"endTime":1093.66,"body":"and hear a wide variety of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1090.87,"endTime":1093.66,"body":"experiences. If you would like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1093.66,"endTime":1096.66,"body":"to submit a question or share a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1093.66,"endTime":1096.66,"body":"comment about today's episode,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1096.69,"endTime":1099.69,"body":"you can email us at"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1096.69,"endTime":1099.69,"body":"questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1100.08,"endTime":1100.95,"body":"Until next time..."}]}