Welcome to Questions from the Closet. I'm Ben Schilaty.
Charlie:And I'm Charlie Bird. Each episode we discuss a question that we commonly get asked as LGBTQ Latter-day Saints.
Ben:We're not trying to answer this question or come to a consensus but simply sharing our perspectives.
Charlie:Today's question is, what should I do if I think a family member is gay?
Ben:So Charlie and I are not terribly diverse and we share many opinions and life experiences. For example, we both hate leg day at the gym.
Charlie:However, there are some pretty big differences for example, Ben pushes through and does it anyway and I usually don't. I really hate leg day.
Ben:What, what do you do instead?
Charlie:I usually just do like backflips and pretend it's a leg workout.
Ben:So you just like...
Charlie:Like, that's making me sound good. But it's not good. It's like a cop out. I hike a lot. I go on a lot of hikes.
Ben:I feel like I would if if I could skip leg day to be able to do backflips I would definitely do that. But no, I do like day almost every week. I, my goal is to work out zero to four times a week, and I make my goal every week.
Charlie:Zero to four times. That's great.
Ben:Anyway, we would like to provide a variety of voices and perspectives. So today, we're joined by Anne Rodman. Welcome, Anne.
Anne Rodman:Hi, thank you. Glad to be here.
Charlie:Anne let me just say that it is an honor to have you here.
Anne Rodman:Thank you. It's an honor to be here.
Unknown:Anne is my sister. Anne's my older sister. We are three and a half years. No, like three years apart.
Anne Rodman:Two and a half years. Yeah.
Unknown:Two and a half. We're two and a half years apart. I don't even know how old I am these days.
Anne Rodman:You're getting up there. I'm not gonna lie. You're almost 27 and I'm almost 30.
Charlie:That means you're almost 30
Anne Rodman:This needs to be cut. Edit!
Unknown:Turning 30 year is amazing. Trust me, I did it once. So this is a question we get asked a lot. Someone will say, "Hey, I think my brother's gay, or my son, or my cousin or my sister is gay. What do I do? How do I help them?" So that's what we're here to talk about. So Anne why did you first start suspecting that I was gay?
Anne Rodman:Um, I think...
Charlie:That's a loaded question. Yes, it is. But I think I, knowing you so well. And for years, and I didn't ever really, it didn't cross my mind before you served a mission. But after you came home, I remember just asking, I mean, we would talk on the phone a couple times a week, if not more, and I would just ask questions about your life. And everything. Dating, of course, always comes up whenever you're young and in college and got home from your mission. And I remember in particular, you had really liked this one girl a lot. And you talked about it, like you, I remember you talking, you admired her looking back, it was admiration. And you admired her so much. And I was like, so excited for you. Because I was like, this is awesome. Like, I'm watching my brother, like fall in love is what I thought. And I would ask you like, have you kissed her yet? You'd hang out with her, like, all the time. Did you kiss her? No, no, it wasn't right. And I was like, okay, so like a month went by. I'm like, Okay, you've definitely kissed her. You're like, "Oh, no, we went to the hot springs. But it just the moment wasn't right." I'm like, you're in a hot spring with a girl that you totally admire. So I was starting to be like, okay, like, he really enjoys being around this girl. And he's so sweet and cute about her. Like, he's like, "She's amazing. She's beautiful. She's smart. She's incredible", saying all these things. And I'm like, but I could just tell that the attraction wasn't there. And so I really started to, I wouldn't necessarily say worry about it. But I kind of was worried because I figured if you were in that space, that it was going to be really hard. And I was worried about your emotional well-being because I just knew that that would be a hard spot to be in.
Unknown:And so you weren't actually worried about his sexuality or his orientation. You were just, you wanted to know that he was okay. Right. Exactly. I didn't even think about. I mean, I guess I thought, "Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Is he gay?" And it kind of worried me because I was thinking, "Oh, my gosh, if he is this is huge. And he's alone." And I thought, you know how hard that would be to come home from a mission be expected, all these things are expected of you. And you just, and I know how much of a perfectionist Charlie is like, crazy perfectionist, like this kid never failed at anything. So I was like, just really worried whenever I could feel him, I wouldn't say failing at something, but he wasn't excelling in dating and marriage like I knew he wanted to. And so I was just kind of like, okay, something's not right. And then if I'm being honest, the telltale sign was whenever he actually, I was pushing him to kiss her, which is probably bad on my part, but I was like, the only way he's gonna, I'm gonna know and he's gonna know is if he actually takes the plunge. So I remember him calling me and telling me about actually kissing her. And he was just like, "It was yeah. It was it was fine. Like we kissed it was, it was, I mean, it was good." I brushed my teeth after but I mean, it was great. It was just like, hmmm, interesting, like the way, I mean, he was just trying to be positive about it, but I was just like, "Did you like it?" He was like, "I mean it was okay. It was okay." And anyway, and I was just like, okay, convinced I had convinced myself. And I would go through these times where I'd be like super convinced. And then I'd be like, No, no, no, I'm thinking too much about it. Like, I just need to chill out. No, no, no. And then almost like I was being prompted, like, no, he is, and you need to do something about it type thing.
Ben:So what did you do?
Unknown:Well, I, so I started reading a lot about LDS, I read a lot on the lds.org. They had like a tab LDS and Gay. Or I would just search in the bar. I don't even know if they had the tab yet but I would search LDS and gay or homosexuality, and I would read everything I could find. And I wouldn't say a lot of it. A lot of the older stuff was negative. Or more, I wouldn't say negative but more, I guess.
Charlie:Problematic. Sad. Yeah. And so I would steer, steer clear from that. But I had found a lot of like newer content that was like, videos of you know, my son came out to me and I watched a lot of those. Honestly Ben as I thought back about it I'm like, "I bet that I had come across Ben's blog at some point." I don't know how long you've done that blog. But I've read...
Ben:I mean who wouldn't have. Right?
Charlie:Yes, exactly. Anyway, just totally Ben's, Ben's blog, just totally helped me so much. And then I just started just texting him every once in a while. I remember one night I was, I had a newborn baby. And so I would read a lot whenever I was up, and at all hours of the night with my baby. I remember one night it was late. And I just I just kept having this nagging feeling. And I remember I was even shaking, I and I was like, oh, man, I feel like I needed to do something. But I didn't want to make Charlie feel like I was calling him out or like, Hey, I know you're gay or exposing him. Especially if he wasn't because nobody wants to be accused of something that they're not. And so I um, I just texted him and my brother Sam together. And I just said, "Hey, just sitting here thinking and I just wanted you guys to know that I'll love you always no matter what, whether you're gay, or whether you're straight, or whether anything." I was just kind of made it like a generic"I love you guys so much." And Charlie had just said, like thanks with a heart or something. I was like, okay, like, maybe he's not, but I feel like if he is that's at least something. And I think that's when things kind of started to change. And he didn't, I don't even think we even talked anymore about that for several more months. But we went back and forth a lot more with text messages, like, hey, read this. Or hey, what do you think about this? And that kind of stuff.
Unknown:Yeah. So what I'm hearing you say is you you noticed some signs you thought you might be gay, you were legitimately just worried about him and didn't want to be alone in all this. So you educated yourself. And then you did this really smart thing of texting Charlie and Sam. So that Charlie wasn't being called out. Well, it's funny, because looking back, Sam was probably 16.
Charlie:16 or 17. Yeah. Yeah. So he was he was probably 16. And it's funny, because I knew at the time that Sam would just not think twice about it. He'd just be okay. But I knew that Charlie would, that he would read that and be like, okay, Sam's in this too. So like, she doesn't necessarily know, but it would mean something to him. And Sam would be like, okay, sweet. You know? And he was like, Sam didn't even think twice about it, because he's just like, my older sappy sister. Like, because I'd been like, "love you guys so much" or you know, we're really mushy siblings. To be honest, like, we love each other a whole lot. So it's not, it's not uncommon for us to be like, "Oh, I miss you guys. Love you so much." And I mean, that's just kind of how we are. So saying something like that wasn't necessarily out of the ordinary, but I had never come out and said, "if you are gay, I'll love you the same." You know? So I felt like I needed to. Then looking back I'm so glad I did.
Unknown:Yeah. Let me just highlight the brilliance of this. I've actually dubbed this the Anne Approach. In my book, I talked about the way she did this and the way she kind of like helped me come out and help me see that she was safe. And I told her, I tell her all the time. And I'm gonna shout this from the rooftops, the Anne Approach. And that's it. That's like, what she did was so effective for me because she didn't know this, well, I'm sure like, what you were scared of, like my isolation and like, potential, like, emotional and mental issues, like surrounding what I was going through, was exactly what was happening to me during that eight months to a year when like this was kind of unfolding, were probably some of the darkest times in my life, and I was dealing with these huge consequential questions of faith, and sexuality, and future and I was just really overwhelmed. And I think one of the hardest things about that is the weight of the "what if?" Right? When I was in the closet, there was so much like paranoia around this. What if this happens? Like what's going to happen if someone finds out? If someone knows? And that was really scary, especially with my family, and my friends. So like Anne was saying, like, our family's so close, especially our siblings, and I was so terrified of a bad reaction, or changing the dynamic of the relationship, or like a misunderstanding, and the weight of the "what if?" was so, so heavy. And because it was so heavy, it started making me paranoid, and I would like dream up these ridiculous falsified scenarios. And it kept me up at night. I'd be like, Well, someone could find out in this way. And then Anne's gonna react like this. And then my sister Janine will do this. And then my dad's gonna freak out. And this chain reaction that is just all fake. It's all just weight, and shame, and darkness that has been amplified in this like petri dish. Essentially, what Anne did--thank you Anne--is, is she removed that weight of the"what if?" with her. Right? And it was just so brilliant. Like I don't, she said, Anne you said you felt prompted. I think absolutely, you felt prompted because this was, you know what I'm I am biased. I do think this approach will work for like most people. Maybe it's not foolproof, but it really worked well for me, because essentially, what she did is say, "There is no 'What if?' with Anne." And I knew there was still a "what if?" with my mom or my dad or my roommate. But I knew that with Anne there was no"what if?" because she made it clear that, that nothing would change and that she was supportive. And then, Anne I just really appreciate the tactful way that you went about this. Our little brother Sam is like the straightest guy on the planet. Like he is, he's so straight. So by adding him in that text message, Anne like wasn't singling me out. It wasn't, I really appreciate that you never tried to, like pry me out of the closet or, or just like wrench it out of me. Because I wasn't ready. Like, personally, I wasn't ready for that yet. And I would have lied to you. And it would have been awkward, but just by giving signs of visible love and support and acceptance and saying whenever you're ready, I'm here. And you have a fan, you have a support. That was huge.
Ben:Having an Anne fan.
Charlie:Yeah.
Unknown:You know, I just have to say, I have to put this plug in that I always tell Charlie, I joke with him. I'm like, you could write a whole sequel book about everything that I did wrong, just me alone. Like all of the mistakes I made. I mean, I'm a two and a half year older sister than Charlie. So you can imagine all the same sibling fights like oh, I thought he was so annoying. I thought that he was you know, always trying to hang out with me, my friends. I mean, all that stuff is still there. Like we, of course, I feel like our sibling bond is, is stronger than probably most people with our siblings, and with our little brothers, but I was nowhere near the perfect sister. So don't feel like ah man. Like, I wish if me and my brother were closer, maybe I could do that. That's not necessarily true. Like me and Charlie were close. But it wasn't, it was more than that. It wasn't like I had been perfect. Or I had always said the right things. Because I actually said a lot of terrible things that whenever Charlie actually did come out to me, I remember grieving, because I was just like, and I would tell him I call him at all, like I'd call him late at night. Oh my gosh, Charlie, remember whenever we were on that road trip with our family to Idaho, and I said this to you? And I would, I would say. I won't say it here because it's so terrible. And you guys will
Charlie:And I was oh yes! be like, I'm never gonna take advice from her. But I remember phrases, I actually can't. And I said it to him. He knows what I'm talking about. Because it's like, it just, it just totally, I just get nightmares from this. And he was like, Yeah, I do. And then Charlie, I mean, he said the sweetest thing he said, and I forgave you the moment you said it, because I didn't know any better. I just thought, I don't like, I don't deserve Charlie's praise. I really don't. But I appreciate that he stays positive about something that I did do right. Because I was far I was far from it most of the time, but I'm really happy that I listened to those feelings because I was able to reach him whenever, whenever he needed it most. So...
Unknown:Yeah. I love that Anne. And I love your humility and saying, you know, I didn't do everything right. And then Charlie's saying, you know, you like, none of it was out of malice. It was just ignorance. And if had you known better, you wouldn't have done that. And Charlie knows that. Exactly. And that's what I want people to know. So that they
Charlie:So Charlie, what did it do for you to receive that text save themselves all those times that I had to be you know, that I've had to be, because I mean, still I feel terrible and eve though Charlie forgave me, a d immediately I haven't forgiv n myself because I should ha e known. You know? I should, pe ple need to know. I didn't kno but now I always say if people love someone that is gay, or l sbian, or any, insert any marg nalized group, insert anything hen they will understand and l ve them. And to know Charlie i to love Charlie. I've heard the same thing about Ben. To k ow Ben is to love Ben. I've he rd that from several people. An I just feel like, if yo get to know someone, it change your heart. That's what appened with Charlie immediat ly. I didn't know anyone really esides like, oh, an old middle s hool teacher or coach, or that e erybody, you know, joked about r teased about. Or soccer tea mate or something, you kn w, none of my good friends or fa ily members that I really l ved, had ever, you know, come ut to me. And so I just thoug t it was just like this far of problem. And then whenever I realized that it potenti lly might not be I started real y thinking, I need to be ducated, because I realized how much I was not and how much I just thought, just because just, I thought I knew. It's just kind of, it's kind of like parallel to being a mom. You think you know how you're gon a raise your kids. And then a l of a sudden, you have thr e kids, and you're like, I'm doi g so many things I thought that I wouldn't do. And that I judg d people for doing like, Oh m gosh, your kid is throwing a fit in the grocery store. Like, h, my gosh, that's so embarrassi g. And then here I am dragging three children out and shoving them in the car as people judg me. And I'm like, you don't kno what it's like to have three kids. I think it's the same way ou don't you don't know what t's like to walk a mile in Ch rlie shoes. And if you did, you would love hi from Anne?
Unknown:Like I was saying earlier, it just made me feel safe. It took away a lot of fear. As she was doing it I was still wasn't ready to come out, I still was working through a lot of things. But it was one less weight on my back. The potential loss of a family member is a really heavy weight. And so even just having that off, made it easier to have the strength to kind of work through the rest of the weight that I was carrying. Yeah, I like what you said about, you know, you weren't ready to come out yet. I remember, like, in my early 20s, like, shortly after my mission, I remember hanging out with one of my mission companions one day, and he was just being really vulnerable and sharing a lot of, a lot of what was going on in his life with me. And I like felt this desire to like, share what was going on in my life and to like, share my orientation with him and just let him know what was going on. And I just, I couldn't. Like I wasn't at a place where I was ready to do that. And yet, I also knew that if I did, he would be okay with that. And he didn't have to say the words, but I just knew from, from his vulnerability, that if I chose the vulnerable, that he would have been okay too. Well, Ben, I think you bring up a really good point. The Anne Approach, or yeah, I'm just gonna keep calling it the Anne Approach because I'm trying to tag that. It doesn't have to be the exact same way that Anne did it. Right? There's, there's so many ways to come to someone and make them feel safe and comfortable. And like you're saying, Ben this person came to you and was vulnerable, and you, your initial reaction as a human was to meet that with vulnerability. That's another way you can do this there. And I really think we can like, apply this to your, your own specific situation, and say, you know, like, I know this about my family member. What are some ways like with our relationship and in our dynamic that I could maybe get this message across that I am safe, that I am supportive, that, that my love is unconditional? I'm not, so people ask me a lot if I was gay. I mean, I watched The Golden Girls. I love my little ponies. I'm bad at sports. You know, I got, I got asked if I was gay regularly, like as a teenager, and then as a young adult. And I lied every time just because I was like, I don't think asking someone if they're gay is the right thing to do. And people often asked me, oh, I think someone might be gay, should I ask them? And I say unless the Holy Ghost like super prompts you to do that. Like I would not ask someone if they're gay. Because that is such a like a personal decision and instead, work to create an environment where someone can feel safe enough to come out, instead of asking them and letting them do it on their own time. Yeah, if you're asking somebody it makes your intentions seem more prying and more just out of curiosity than general concern. If you were truly concerned, it wouldn't necessarily be about their answer yes or no, more about their well being. And there's so many more ways to ask about their well-being then ask a direct question. You can ask so many other questions. Like I mean, was I concerned whether Charlie likes men or not. No. Was I concerned that Charlie was struggling or not? Yes. Did I know that the possible reason he was struggling was because he was gay? Yes. But that wasn't my concern. So if your concern is whether or not somebody is gay, you need to reevaluate why you're even concerned. Because if you're concerned because you don't know how that will reflect on you, or blah, blah, blah, then you know, that's, you need to check your priorities. But if you are concerned because you're worried about their well-being, then there's no there's not even a reason to come out and ask, Are you gay? There's so many other things that need to be addressed first, and then if they want to tell you that awesome! If they don't, then you can, you're still just tacking on a friend or loved one and their well-being, which is something totally normal and natural to do.
Ben:Yeah.
Unknown:Well, and the really cool thing is there's no downside to this. Like, again, like I think it's foolproof. You were saying that when you send this text to me and Sam, Sam was like, "Oh, my sister's nice." And I was like, "World shift paradigm crazy I'm safe with my sister." Right? So there was no negative consequence of this. Sam was like, "Oh, my sister's accepting a nice" and I was like, "I'm safe." And so I really don't think there's, there's any downside to like spreading love and positivity. People have this misconception, like, if you say it, or if you like, even somebody had said this to me, like, "Oh, don't don't ask him. Don't say anything. It might like make him gay or..."
Charlie:It might turn me gay. Yeah.
Unknown:And I, that is not a thing, you guys. It doesn't give somebody the green light. Oh my goodness, like, they said, I actually like girls, but my sister said it was "Oh, she would love me if I was gay." Like, I think I'm going to like guys now. Like that logic doesn't make sense. And so it's not like you're giving someone the green light to be gay. It's, you are born this way. And you are created this way. And so it doesn't matter what anybody says. You're not gonna, you can't change. You don't want to change. And you shouldn't change. And so that's, that's definitely just you addressing that topic is not going to turn somebody gay. Please don't think that because it's definitely not true. That whenever you're talking about vulnerable, vulnerability, we get into this place where we don't want people to know that we struggle, because you have to humble yourself to admit your faults. And so we get into this prideful way of like, "oh, like, that doesn't happen to me, like, I don't, you know, I don't struggle." And it's just, if you're like that all the time, nobody's gonna come to you whenever they need you. Like, Hey, I'm having a hard time. But if you're able to, you know, share your faults and be like,"Hey, you know what? I really struggle with this, like, this is hard for me." Then that kind of opens the door for them to be like, "Oh, they're not a perfect person. They do have struggles." And I think a lot of that is happening with moms and depression and anxiety. People are just being more open, like,"Hey, you know what, having a newborn is really hard. And it's amazing. And I don't want to sound like I'm ungrateful for this beautiful baby, but it is hard." And then people can be, other moms can be like, "Oh, my goodness, I'm struggling. And you can kind of help with that" instead of being prideful and I know all of my alibi analogies go back to being a mom. I'm sorry, guys. I know that you can't really relate. But I just feel like it happens with a lot of stuff. You know, like if Charlie was a tumbler, I know he loves tumbling. And he's like,"Backflips were always super easy for me. Never struggled. Never struggled." Then people aren't going to want to come to him and be like, hey, I want to learn from you. Because nobody wants to learn from somebody that thinks that they're the best of everything.
Ben:Yeah, exactly.
Charlie:I am pretty good at backflips.
Anne Rodman:Charlie. So Charlie. Share one of your fail videos because I've seen them. I love the flip fails whenever you landed on your face. Those are the best.
Unknown:Anne I love this. I love what you're saying that, you know, when we're vulnerable. That leads to people being vulnerable as well. And also kind of takes the pressure off, if we can just be honest about our imperfections and how life isn't perfect. Like I remember when I was 29, a bunch of my friends from Tucson, we went up to Zion National Park for a weekend. And I was like, I shared a room with two guys. So I didn't know like I was getting to know but didn't know super well. And while we were like going to bed and you know, having pillow talk, he was like telling me about girls he liked and, and unloading some some baggage from his past. And I think he like told me how many girls he'd kissed. He's like, how many girls have you kissed? I was like, one. And I was 29. He was like, that's really, really respectable. I was like, Uh huh. And then, and then since he was being vulnerable, and like, it kind of opened the door. Like, I just felt like I could come out to him. And I did, and are, the other guy who shared the room with us he wasn't in the room. And he came in a couple minutes later and interrupted our conversation. He's like, what are you guys talking about? And I said, how good of friends do want to be? And then, and then I told him, it was great. And so I think this, this idea that like when we're vulnerable and open, people are more likely to be vulnerable with us. So if someone has a loved one who they worry might be struggling, you know, as we are open and honest and share our hearts, they're more likely to share their heart as well when they're ready. Yeah, and I think it's, it's not like all the time. Me and Anne and Ben are like running around just divulging our history and like deepest struggles on everyone, right? It's like being vulnerable isn't like I a set radio station that you're always on. But I think you can just kind of like read the room and the situation and even like pray. Like sometimes I pray about when I, I should like, open up a little more. Like who needs that? And just to be sensitive to that, you know? Yeah. And I've kind of..
Charlie:When it's appropriate.
Unknown:Yeah, as I've as I've aged and matured, I kind of like can sense when the Spirit is telling me to like be more open about something. Yeah, a lot of times, if you can tell somebody is struggling, I will not just be like, "Hey, I can tell something's wrong", because nobody wants to hear that they're visibly distressed. But if you're like, "oh, man, can I share something with you? You know", like, and if you say something to them first, then they're like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so glad you said something, because I have been struggling." And then you can be like, "Wow, really? I had no idea" or just kind of help them instead of being like, it's so obvious that you're struggling right now, tell me, you know, nobody wants to feel like they are just this open book of emotional distress. But people want to hear like,"Hey, I'm struggling with something, can you help me?" And then they're like, "Oh, you know, I'm struggling with something too." And then it kind of lets you be able to help them as well. And build like a human experience. So Anne what was your reaction when I actually did come out to you? So the way, the way that it actually happened was Charlie sent me, Charlie had sent me this blog post about, I remember the kid, I wish I should go back and look it up. But it was about a kid that grew up on a farm. And I mean, which, which we also did. We grew up on a ranch in southwest Missouri. I listened to the whole video, and I just, I just, I was 100% positive in that moment. And I knew if I didn't say anything, right, then I would second guess myself later, because I had been doing that for weeks. I was like, I am positive. And then I, and the next day, I'd be like, uhhh.. but I knew at that moment, I was like, I was 100% confident. And so I just texted him back. And I just said, "Charlie, I know." And I thought, If he doesn't, under, if he is he'll understand what that means. But if he isn't he'll be like what? And I would just be like, what? Then would just be like what, what, what you know, and then I could just play it off as ignorance. But I said, "Charlie, I know." And then he sent back that, "I know, you know." And whenever I received that, I, I remember, I just, I was in my kitchen. And I just sat down on the floor. And I remember I just cried, and I cried because it wasn't because I was sad that my brother was gay. It was because I, I was a lot of mixed emotions. A lot of it was relief, because I was so glad in that moment that, that I had been there for him. And a lot of it was I was so sad for what he must have been going through and I was grieving for him. And I was thinking about how hard it must be for him to let go of this life that he had. Like, I think the chapter in his book is called The Glass Castle. And it's one of my favorite chapters, because I think it applies to everyone so well. You have this vision of what your life is going to be. And it's not going to be that way. It's not that way for, for very few people get their glass castle that they always thought they were going to have. And so I just I felt so much pain that he was in pain. And I think whenever you have a sibling or a loved one or a spouse or a child, you know that feeling. Whenever they're hurting, you're hurting. And so I was hurting for my brother, but I was also filled with so much love. And I was also grieving because of all the times that I had done him wrong personally, and I knew personally I had caused him pain. And that oh man, that was just, it was hard to sit and feel that. And I just think of if I could help somebody not have to feel that they had caused somebody they love so much that pain, then I will shout the Anne Approach from the rooftops and be like, "Listen, do this before you do all the wrong things that I did before I actually did something right. But I did a lot of things wrong as well." But yeah, I just, and that was, and then of course, poor Charlie, I had a lot of questions for him after that. And I felt like we, and he was coming. And he was coming. It was around Thanksgiving. He was coming in like a week. And so he had said, I had called him, I tried to call him after I had my moment then I tried to call him and he answered and he just said, "I want to talk about this in person. Can you wait?" I had to wait a whole week. And then whenever he got there we were always around other people. So I couldn't be like... I remember that like energy between us. Like oh hey mom.
Anne Rodman:We couldn't talk about the elephant in the room. I think we were around each other for like two whole days. And finally it was like 11pm one night and I said I'm picking you up and we're going for a drive. And we went on a drive and, and I was crying and I don't remember if Charlie was crying. He was probably just like trying to control the road. It was, I was driving and probably shouldn't have been. I was crying And, and I remember I felt, I after we had talked for a while I had, I had opened, I had opened up to him about some things that were hard for me. And it was just nice, like things that I never told anybody before. And it was nice that we had, that I felt like I could trust Charlie with this because he had trusted me with such a big part of him.
Unknown:As close as we are, it made us a lot closer.
Anne Rodman:Yeah, it did.
Unknown:One of the things I love most about what you said is, you know, are we asking, are we trying to find out someone's sexual orientation because we're curious, or because it's interesting, or because we really care about what's going on in their lives. And there have been times in my life where I thought someone I knew was gay. And so I'd be like, "I'm gay, do you have anything to say?" And you know, that, that is 100%, the wrong approach. Don't do the Ben Approach. Do To your to your defense, you're also I mean, you can connect the Anne Approach. with that person. And so it's not because you want to tell everybody in Relief Society that you know, somebody else is gay. It's because you have a commonality. So it's, that's okay. It's okay for you, but it's not okay for somebody that's straight, and just wants to tell everybody else, you know? The Ben Approach is like a second tier approach.
Anne Rodman:To be used if you are also gay. But I mean, you can tell, it's so I mean, just growing up in a family that went through a pretty, I mean, our world was rocked, and we went, our parents went through a pretty unconventional and um...
Charlie:Dramatic divorce?
Anne Rodman:Dramatic divorce. And a lot of people were very concerned for us, and a lot of people just wanted to know the dirt. And I still, I still remember who was who, through all of that. And you could just tell if somebody was asking because they genuinely cared, or because they wanted to tell their neighbor the latest tea about who did what and who said what, and it's just, I feel like it's the same way so easy to tell intentions. If, and so understand that, too. If, if you're trying to fake intentions, you will be exposed, because it's easy. It's easy to tell what somebody is trying to pry for.
Charlie:Anne personally will expose you.
Anne Rodman:I will find you. This is the new Anne Approach.
Charlie:I hope everyone in our hometown is listening.
Anne Rodman:Yes, seriously.
Charlie:She's got the list.
Anne Rodman:Actually that's more the Janine approach and I
Charlie:That's so true. can just get the.... Is that no true?
Unknown:Janine, she's like, the pitbull. And I'm just like the little yapper on the side. And I put in my two cents, even though nobody really cares. But we do our best. Well, Anne thank you for coming on my podcast.
Ben:Our podcast.
Unknown:You're really good sister. And I love you. I just want to publicly forgive you for anything you said.
Anne Rodman:Thank you. I appreciate that.
Unknown:Well, no, but honestly, I think this is such an important conversation. And I think you were so poised and full of grace in the way you helped me feel safe. And I also thank you, I just want to add that my family members have been incredibly supportive. And they continue to be because what I asked from them changes. At the beginning, I just like with and I just needed someone to listen to me mostly, and just kind of be there. But it's kind of turned into as I've been more public and try to do more like bridge building initiatives. I'm asking my sister to now like, talk about her experience. And it's just really beautiful, how supportive you've been of me and how you're willing to put yourself out there even though this is something that you don't have to do. So thank you. I love you.
Anne Rodman:Thanks Charlie, I love you too. And Ben come on, bring it in. We're all in this together.
Unknown:Virtual hug. Thank you for joining us today. If you have enjoyed this or other episodes, please consider leaving us an apple podcast review. And as always, please remember that we do not represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Brigham Young University. We are not trying to be prescriptive or tell anyone what to think or what to do. You heard three perspectives and there are many, many more. We encourage you to listen to other voices and hear a wide variety of experiences. If you would like to submit a question or share comment about today's episode, you can email us at questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com. Until next time.