{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":5.79,"endTime":7.95,"body":"Welcome to questions"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":5.79,"endTime":7.95,"body":"from the closet. I'm Charlie"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":7.95,"endTime":8.34,"body":"Bird."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.43,"endTime":11.22,"body":"And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.43,"endTime":11.22,"body":"episode we discuss a question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.22,"endTime":13.92,"body":"that we commonly get asked as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":11.22,"endTime":13.92,"body":"LGBTQ Latter-day Saints."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.17,"endTime":16.18,"body":"We are not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":14.17,"endTime":16.18,"body":"answer this question or come to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.18,"endTime":18.61,"body":"a consensus, but simply sharing"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.18,"endTime":18.61,"body":"our perspectives."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":18.82,"endTime":21.88,"body":"Today's question is, how do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":18.82,"endTime":21.88,"body":"I fit in the plan of salvation?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":22.33,"endTime":24.25,"body":"Ben and I are not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":22.33,"endTime":24.25,"body":"terribly diverse and we share"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":24.25,"endTime":27.22,"body":"many opinions and life"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":24.25,"endTime":27.22,"body":"experiences. For example, this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":27.22,"endTime":29.68,"body":"past Saturday, we spent the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":27.22,"endTime":29.68,"body":"afternoon raking leaves for a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":29.68,"endTime":30.1,"body":"widow."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":30.28,"endTime":32.71,"body":"However, there are some"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":30.28,"endTime":32.71,"body":"pretty big differences. For"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":32.71,"endTime":35.32,"body":"example, I rake leaves for about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":32.71,"endTime":35.32,"body":"three hours and you came out for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":35.32,"endTime":36.34,"body":"what 20 minutes?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":36.37,"endTime":37.48,"body":"Probably about 20"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":36.37,"endTime":37.48,"body":"minutes."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":38.59,"endTime":42.52,"body":"So I started raking and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":38.59,"endTime":42.52,"body":"raked like two leaf fulls. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":42.52,"endTime":45.19,"body":"then a big gust came and blew"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":42.52,"endTime":45.19,"body":"the leaves farther back than"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":45.19,"endTime":47.77,"body":"they had come from. And so I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":45.19,"endTime":47.77,"body":"like, I can't do this on my own."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.77,"endTime":50.71,"body":"So I texted a bunch of people,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.77,"endTime":50.71,"body":"including you, and you were"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":50.71,"endTime":51.19,"body":"asleep."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":51.88,"endTime":53.17,"body":"It was 1pm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":55.12,"endTime":57.82,"body":"It was 10 when I texted"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":55.12,"endTime":57.82,"body":"you. And then I texted a couple"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":57.82,"endTime":59.71,"body":"friends. My friend Heidi came"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":57.82,"endTime":59.71,"body":"and saved the day but then you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":59.71,"endTime":61.03,"body":"came out for a while I'm just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":59.71,"endTime":61.03,"body":"took selfies."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":61.06,"endTime":63.64,"body":"Yeah, I took selfies. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":61.06,"endTime":63.64,"body":"also made a pretty nice leaf"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":63.64,"endTime":66.61,"body":"pile that I jumped in. I had a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":63.64,"endTime":66.61,"body":"good time. They were almost done"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":66.61,"endTime":67.42,"body":"by the time I got there."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":68.02,"endTime":69.97,"body":"But you were you were"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":68.02,"endTime":69.97,"body":"actually quite helpful for those"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":69.97,"endTime":70.54,"body":"20 minutes."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":70.54,"endTime":71.77,"body":"Thanks. I do what I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":70.54,"endTime":71.77,"body":"can."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":71.939,"endTime":72.839,"body":"Thank you, Charlie."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":73.38,"endTime":75.42,"body":"Well, we would like to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":73.38,"endTime":75.42,"body":"provide a variety of voices and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":75.42,"endTime":78.0,"body":"perspectives on our show. So"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":75.42,"endTime":78.0,"body":"today we're joined by Terryl"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":78.0,"endTime":78.63,"body":"Givens."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":78.78,"endTime":80.43,"body":"So tell us a little bit"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":78.78,"endTime":80.43,"body":"about yourself, Terryl."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":81.14,"endTime":84.56,"body":"Well, I spent"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":81.14,"endTime":84.56,"body":"most of my professional life as"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":84.59,"endTime":89.18,"body":"a professor of literature and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":84.59,"endTime":89.18,"body":"religion at the University of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":89.18,"endTime":92.72,"body":"Richmond, Virginia. As a little"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":89.18,"endTime":92.72,"body":"over a year ago, I relocated"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":92.72,"endTime":98.6,"body":"here to Utah, which in itself is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":92.72,"endTime":98.6,"body":"a considerable miracle. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":98.6,"endTime":102.26,"body":"now a senior Neal  A. Maxwell"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":98.6,"endTime":102.26,"body":"research fellow at the Neal A."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":102.26,"endTime":104.21,"body":"Maxwell Institute at Brigham"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":102.26,"endTime":104.21,"body":"Young University."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":104.39,"endTime":106.04,"body":"Okay, and what are some of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":104.39,"endTime":106.04,"body":"the projects we're working on"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":106.0,"endTime":108.61,"body":"I have a book"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":106.0,"endTime":108.61,"body":"coming out this week that I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":106.04,"endTime":106.46,"body":"right now?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":108.61,"endTime":112.33,"body":"co-authored with Fiona called"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":108.61,"endTime":112.33,"body":"\"All Things New: Rethinking Sin,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":112.33,"endTime":115.87,"body":"Salvation and everything in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":112.33,"endTime":115.87,"body":"between\"  in an attempt to try"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":115.87,"endTime":118.51,"body":"to create a kind of new"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":115.87,"endTime":118.51,"body":"religious vocabulary for"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":118.51,"endTime":121.75,"body":"Latter-day Saints that moves us"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":118.51,"endTime":121.75,"body":"further away from our Protestant"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":121.75,"endTime":126.25,"body":"heritage. I have a biography of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":121.75,"endTime":126.25,"body":"Gene England that I recently"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":126.25,"endTime":129.61,"body":"completed, so that'll be coming"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":126.25,"endTime":129.61,"body":"out next year from UNC press."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":129.91,"endTime":134.92,"body":"Right now I'm working on a kind"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":129.91,"endTime":134.92,"body":"of revisionist history of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":134.92,"endTime":137.32,"body":"Christianity from a Latter-day"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":134.92,"endTime":137.32,"body":"Saint perspective."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":138.01,"endTime":140.2,"body":"Fun stuff. We'll read all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":138.01,"endTime":140.2,"body":"of it. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":141.49,"endTime":143.38,"body":"That sounds amazing."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":141.49,"endTime":143.38,"body":"Terryl, I gotta say, when I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":143.38,"endTime":146.02,"body":"started working with Deseret"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":143.38,"endTime":146.02,"body":"Book on my book, it was kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":146.02,"endTime":149.83,"body":"like a sensitive topic. And they"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":146.02,"endTime":149.83,"body":"gave me a couple authors to look"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":149.83,"endTime":153.1,"body":"into as examples of someone who"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":149.83,"endTime":153.1,"body":"are really good at diving into"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":153.1,"endTime":155.86,"body":"sensitive topics. And you were"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":153.1,"endTime":155.86,"body":"one of them. So I have a couple"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":155.86,"endTime":159.64,"body":"of your books, and I read them,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":155.86,"endTime":159.64,"body":"they're very good. So wonderful"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":159.64,"endTime":160.03,"body":"job."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":161.19,"endTime":162.72,"body":"Well, today, we're here to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":161.19,"endTime":162.72,"body":"talk about the plan of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":162.72,"endTime":165.81,"body":"salvation, and how LGBTQ folks"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":162.72,"endTime":165.81,"body":"like us fit into the plan of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":165.81,"endTime":168.69,"body":"salvation. There's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":165.81,"endTime":168.69,"body":"worry about, you know, how do I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":168.69,"endTime":171.54,"body":"fit in if the plan is all about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":168.69,"endTime":171.54,"body":"marriage between a man and a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":171.54,"endTime":175.38,"body":"woman? How do we, as LGBTQ folks"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":171.54,"endTime":175.38,"body":"fit in? And there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":175.38,"endTime":177.84,"body":"worry, and a lot of speculation,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":175.38,"endTime":177.84,"body":"we just kind of want to share"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":177.84,"endTime":180.33,"body":"some perspectives on some"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":177.84,"endTime":180.33,"body":"thoughts that we've had."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":180.69,"endTime":183.15,"body":"Yeah. And I think well"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":180.69,"endTime":183.15,"body":"given a little bit of an extra"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":183.15,"endTime":185.7,"body":"caveat to this episode, in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":183.15,"endTime":185.7,"body":"particular, because there's a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":185.7,"endTime":188.01,"body":"lot of things that are just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":185.7,"endTime":188.01,"body":"speculated about with the plan"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":188.01,"endTime":191.22,"body":"of salvation in general. And we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":188.01,"endTime":191.22,"body":"just want to share some"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":191.22,"endTime":191.73,"body":"thoughts."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":191.99,"endTime":194.6,"body":"Well, I have had"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":191.99,"endTime":194.6,"body":"a few thoughts, and many of them"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":194.6,"endTime":198.59,"body":"run in the direction of thinking"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":194.6,"endTime":198.59,"body":"that we could have a healthier"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":198.59,"endTime":204.5,"body":"space for contemplation and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":198.59,"endTime":204.5,"body":"conversation about the topic if"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":204.5,"endTime":209.51,"body":"we would actually clarify how"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":204.5,"endTime":209.51,"body":"much of our supposed theology is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":209.51,"endTime":214.4,"body":"actually speculative theology."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":209.51,"endTime":214.4,"body":"In Latter-day Saint tradition,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":214.4,"endTime":218.78,"body":"we often aren't careful to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":214.4,"endTime":218.78,"body":"separate out what is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":218.78,"endTime":224.27,"body":"folkloric inheritance. Or, as"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":218.78,"endTime":224.27,"body":"Gene England himself once said,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":224.48,"endTime":227.0,"body":"tragically, and poignantly at"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":224.48,"endTime":227.0,"body":"the end of his life: \"I wish I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":227.0,"endTime":230.93,"body":"had known the difference between"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":227.0,"endTime":230.93,"body":"when the brethren speak and when"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":230.96,"endTime":235.49,"body":"a brother speaks.\" There's a lot"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":230.96,"endTime":235.49,"body":"less that has been said"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":235.49,"endTime":239.96,"body":"authoritatively on the subject"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":235.49,"endTime":239.96,"body":"of the family in the eternities."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":240.38,"endTime":241.61,"body":"Then we often think."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":242.06,"endTime":244.25,"body":"What are some things that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":242.06,"endTime":244.25,"body":"have been said?  I've, this is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":244.25,"endTime":245.33,"body":"intriguing to me what you're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":244.25,"endTime":245.33,"body":"saying?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":245.0,"endTime":248.57,"body":"Well, for"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":245.0,"endTime":248.57,"body":"example, there are in the early"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":248.57,"endTime":251.9,"body":"church, there were three"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":248.57,"endTime":251.9,"body":"different models of how the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":251.9,"endTime":255.74,"body":"family itself was constituted in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":251.9,"endTime":255.74,"body":"the eternities. One of the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":255.74,"endTime":259.52,"body":"problems is that Latter-day"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":255.74,"endTime":259.52,"body":"Saint thinkers like Joseph Smith"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":259.52,"endTime":263.78,"body":"and Orson Pratt and Parley"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":259.52,"endTime":263.78,"body":"Pratt, were trying to find"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":263.84,"endTime":270.14,"body":"earthly language and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":263.84,"endTime":270.14,"body":"counterparts to divine"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":270.14,"endTime":274.49,"body":"processes, and, and realities."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":270.14,"endTime":274.49,"body":"And so they would use different"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":274.49,"endTime":277.88,"body":"metaphors for talking about the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":274.49,"endTime":277.88,"body":"family in the afterlife. For"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":277.88,"endTime":281.48,"body":"example, in the King Follett"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":277.88,"endTime":281.48,"body":"discourse, Joseph Smith was"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":281.48,"endTime":287.06,"body":"clearly articulating a version"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":281.48,"endTime":287.06,"body":"of adoption, that God finds"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":287.06,"endTime":291.17,"body":"himself in the midst of these"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":287.06,"endTime":291.17,"body":"intelligences. He invites them"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":291.17,"endTime":296.54,"body":"into eternal relationship with"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":291.17,"endTime":296.54,"body":"Him. And that's that's what the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":296.57,"endTime":301.85,"body":"new and everlasting covenant is."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":296.57,"endTime":301.85,"body":"It is the set of conditions and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":301.85,"endTime":306.26,"body":"laws and principles by which we"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":301.85,"endTime":306.26,"body":"become adopted into an eternal"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":306.26,"endTime":310.01,"body":"family. And Brigham Young and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":306.26,"endTime":310.01,"body":"others frequently pointed out"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":310.01,"endTime":313.88,"body":"that the law of adoption was the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":310.01,"endTime":313.88,"body":"subject of greatest interest and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":313.88,"endTime":316.91,"body":"on the minds of the early saints"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":313.88,"endTime":316.91,"body":"more than any other topic."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":318.14,"endTime":323.9,"body":"Parley Pratt use the language of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":318.14,"endTime":323.9,"body":"emanation. He thought that our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":323.9,"endTime":328.94,"body":"spirits somehow emanated from"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":323.9,"endTime":328.94,"body":"some primeval core or center or"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":328.94,"endTime":333.41,"body":"divine spirit. Orson Pratt, just"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":328.94,"endTime":333.41,"body":"within months of the prophets"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":333.41,"endTime":338.87,"body":"death was apparently the first"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":333.41,"endTime":338.87,"body":"to refer to spirit parturition"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":339.59,"endTime":342.98,"body":"the notion that Heavenly Mother"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":339.59,"endTime":342.98,"body":"and Heavenly Father actually"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":343.01,"endTime":348.29,"body":"engender offspring in a way that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":343.01,"endTime":348.29,"body":"is analogous to how earthly"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":348.29,"endTime":353.36,"body":"people have intercourse and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":348.29,"endTime":353.36,"body":"produce offspring. So there's a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":353.36,"endTime":357.98,"body":"diversity of opinions and Orson"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":353.36,"endTime":357.98,"body":"Pratt's view kind of won the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":357.98,"endTime":363.89,"body":"day. And so that tends to this"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":357.98,"endTime":363.89,"body":"present hour to be the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":363.92,"endTime":366.95,"body":"prevailing opinion, although"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":363.92,"endTime":366.95,"body":"there's not an official church"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":366.95,"endTime":371.18,"body":"pronouncement on the mechanism"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":366.95,"endTime":371.18,"body":"by which spirit offspring are"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":371.18,"endTime":375.05,"body":"produced in the worlds to come."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":371.18,"endTime":375.05,"body":"And I think in many ways that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":375.05,"endTime":378.17,"body":"cuts pretty close to the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":375.05,"endTime":378.17,"body":"question that you're dealing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":378.17,"endTime":383.24,"body":"with today, which is, what is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":378.17,"endTime":383.24,"body":"our role in the plan of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":383.24,"endTime":386.18,"body":"salvation? What is the role of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":383.24,"endTime":386.18,"body":"heterosexuals versus people of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":386.18,"endTime":390.5,"body":"same sex attraction? I think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":386.18,"endTime":390.5,"body":"that we kind of box ourselves in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":390.5,"endTime":394.73,"body":"if we make too many assumptions"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":390.5,"endTime":394.73,"body":"about the way the family is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":394.73,"endTime":399.14,"body":"constituted, procreation occurs,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":394.73,"endTime":399.14,"body":"or the nature of human"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":399.14,"endTime":401.84,"body":"relationality in the world to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":399.14,"endTime":401.84,"body":"come."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":402.56,"endTime":404.36,"body":"Yeah, what we're saying"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":402.56,"endTime":404.36,"body":"reminds me of something that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":404.39,"endTime":407.63,"body":"that President Oakes said in a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":404.39,"endTime":407.63,"body":"few conferences ago about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":407.72,"endTime":410.48,"body":"someone worried about polygamy"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":407.72,"endTime":410.48,"body":"in the next life, he said,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":410.48,"endTime":412.49,"body":"there's a lot we don't know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":410.48,"endTime":412.49,"body":"focus on what you do know."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":412.51,"endTime":414.13,"body":"Yeah. And I've"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":412.51,"endTime":414.13,"body":"been happy to hear President"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":414.13,"endTime":417.01,"body":"Oaks make that kind of comment a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":414.13,"endTime":417.01,"body":"couple of times in relation to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":417.01,"endTime":421.0,"body":"different issues, especially"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":417.01,"endTime":421.0,"body":"touching on sexuality, venturing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":421.0,"endTime":423.73,"body":"into speculative theology here."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":421.0,"endTime":423.73,"body":"And so I want to clarify it, I'm"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":423.73,"endTime":429.01,"body":"certainly not claiming any any"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":423.73,"endTime":429.01,"body":"authority for my ideas, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":429.01,"endTime":433.6,"body":"just trying to open up a larger"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":429.01,"endTime":433.6,"body":"space for conversation, I think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":433.63,"endTime":437.17,"body":"about some of these ideas. But I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":433.63,"endTime":437.17,"body":"think one area, for example that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":437.17,"endTime":442.45,"body":"hasn't been explored"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":437.17,"endTime":442.45,"body":"sufficiently is the role of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":442.45,"endTime":448.18,"body":"gender, and the nature of gender"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":442.45,"endTime":448.18,"body":"as its adumbrated, or at least"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":448.18,"endTime":452.44,"body":"alluded to in the Proclamation"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":448.18,"endTime":452.44,"body":"on the Family. I think that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":452.47,"endTime":459.7,"body":"there is a rich set of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":452.47,"endTime":459.7,"body":"possibilities that are opened up"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":459.7,"endTime":463.36,"body":"to us by the emphasis of the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":459.7,"endTime":463.36,"body":"proclamation on the eternity of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":463.36,"endTime":469.6,"body":"gender, not the eternity of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":463.36,"endTime":469.6,"body":"sexuality. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":469.6,"endTime":475.39,"body":"there's a huge difference here."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":469.6,"endTime":475.39,"body":"Now, I know I'm fully conversant"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":475.39,"endTime":479.2,"body":"on contemporary gender theory,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":475.39,"endTime":479.2,"body":"and I know that in the academy,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":479.74,"endTime":483.73,"body":"it's de rigueur to insist that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":479.74,"endTime":483.73,"body":"gender is entirely a social"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":483.73,"endTime":486.67,"body":"construct. The World Health"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":483.73,"endTime":486.67,"body":"Organization officially defines"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":486.67,"endTime":490.81,"body":"gender as a 100% social"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":486.67,"endTime":490.81,"body":"construct. But the Proclamation"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":490.81,"endTime":493.66,"body":"on Family says otherwise."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":490.81,"endTime":493.66,"body":"Proclamation on Family says that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":493.66,"endTime":498.1,"body":"gender is an eternal constituent"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":493.66,"endTime":498.1,"body":"of identity. So if you want me"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":498.1,"endTime":502.45,"body":"to talk a little bit about about"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":498.1,"endTime":502.45,"body":"that, I'll continue because i"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":502.45,"endTime":505.36,"body":"think i think that there's some"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":502.45,"endTime":505.36,"body":"interesting possibilities,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":505.36,"endTime":508.12,"body":"repercussions that follow from"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":505.36,"endTime":508.12,"body":"that differentiation."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":508.48,"endTime":512.2,"body":"Keep expanding Terryl."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":508.48,"endTime":512.2,"body":"Teach us teach us your your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":512.2,"endTime":513.1,"body":"speculative wisdom."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":513.0,"endTime":515.61,"body":"Well, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":513.0,"endTime":515.61,"body":"think it's interesting that,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":515.88,"endTime":522.72,"body":"that conventional theology is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":515.88,"endTime":522.72,"body":"consistently defined by many"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":522.72,"endTime":527.52,"body":"Christian theologians, as that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":522.72,"endTime":527.52,"body":"realm of soteriology, or"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":527.52,"endTime":531.36,"body":"salvation theology that has to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":527.52,"endTime":531.36,"body":"do with the span of human"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":531.36,"endTime":535.47,"body":"existence between the fall of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":531.36,"endTime":535.47,"body":"Adam and our resurrection. Now,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":535.47,"endTime":537.69,"body":"Latter-day Saint theology is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":535.47,"endTime":537.69,"body":"interesting, because it goes far"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":537.69,"endTime":544.26,"body":"beyond that in both directions."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":537.69,"endTime":544.26,"body":"And in so doing, it relocates"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":544.32,"endTime":548.7,"body":"the essential human identity in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":544.32,"endTime":548.7,"body":"both a pre and post mortal"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":548.7,"endTime":551.82,"body":"world. And yet all of our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":548.7,"endTime":551.82,"body":"paradigms and our assumptions"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":551.82,"endTime":555.81,"body":"are based on mortal experience."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":551.82,"endTime":555.81,"body":"So let me let me be a little bit"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":555.81,"endTime":559.08,"body":"more concrete about this. I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":555.81,"endTime":559.08,"body":"think it's interesting that in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":559.08,"endTime":563.43,"body":"the Genesis account of creation,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":559.08,"endTime":563.43,"body":"Adam and Eve are not sexual"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":563.43,"endTime":567.45,"body":"beings, as they are first"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":563.43,"endTime":567.45,"body":"created. And if we read that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":567.45,"endTime":570.96,"body":"through a Latter-day Saint lens"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":567.45,"endTime":570.96,"body":"would that would suggest is that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":570.96,"endTime":573.75,"body":"coming from the pre-existence,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":570.96,"endTime":573.75,"body":"Adam and Eve are not sexual"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":573.75,"endTime":579.99,"body":"beings, they are gendered, but"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":573.75,"endTime":579.99,"body":"they aren't sexual. Now, if you"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":579.99,"endTime":583.38,"body":"press me on what the difference"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":579.99,"endTime":583.38,"body":"of that is I don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":583.38,"endTime":586.17,"body":"have a full and convincing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":583.38,"endTime":586.17,"body":"explanation. except to say that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":586.17,"endTime":590.13,"body":"sexuality is a function of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":586.17,"endTime":590.13,"body":"hormones and body chemistry and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":590.13,"endTime":593.49,"body":"you know, testosterone and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":590.13,"endTime":593.49,"body":"sexual chemistry and attraction."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":594.21,"endTime":598.56,"body":"Gender seems to be something"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":594.21,"endTime":598.56,"body":"else. It's about femaleness and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":598.56,"endTime":602.7,"body":"maleness and I think it's it's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":598.56,"endTime":602.7,"body":"clearly seems to be a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":602.7,"endTime":606.81,"body":"significant element in the story"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":602.7,"endTime":606.81,"body":"that it's after the seeds of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":606.81,"endTime":610.98,"body":"mortality are introduced to Adam"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":606.81,"endTime":610.98,"body":"and Eve, that they become sexual"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":610.98,"endTime":616.38,"body":"beings. Similarly, if we look at"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":610.98,"endTime":616.38,"body":"the other end of the human"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":616.38,"endTime":621.63,"body":"timeframe, we anticipate that we"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":616.38,"endTime":621.63,"body":"will pass through a veil as"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":621.66,"endTime":625.35,"body":"spiritual entities. Well, one"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":621.66,"endTime":625.35,"body":"question that I think we don't"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":625.38,"endTime":628.17,"body":"spend enough time asking"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":625.38,"endTime":628.17,"body":"ourselves is well, what gets"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":628.17,"endTime":634.5,"body":"left behind when we shuffle off"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":628.17,"endTime":634.5,"body":"this mortal coil? What aspects"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":634.5,"endTime":640.08,"body":"of our identity are essential"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":634.5,"endTime":640.08,"body":"and eternal? And what aspects of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":640.08,"endTime":643.83,"body":"our identity are merely"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":640.08,"endTime":643.83,"body":"contingent? I'm not making any"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":643.83,"endTime":648.18,"body":"declaration, I'm asking a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":643.83,"endTime":648.18,"body":"genuine question. In a related"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":648.18,"endTime":652.44,"body":"way, I think it's significant"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":648.18,"endTime":652.44,"body":"that the way in which the family"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":652.44,"endTime":655.23,"body":"itself is organized in the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":652.44,"endTime":655.23,"body":"eternities has shifted"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":655.23,"endTime":659.73,"body":"dramatically in the course of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":655.23,"endTime":659.73,"body":"LDS theology. Right? I think one"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":659.73,"endTime":663.39,"body":"of the most interesting and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":659.73,"endTime":663.39,"body":"certainly earth shattering"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":663.96,"endTime":666.45,"body":"discourses that was delivered in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":663.96,"endTime":666.45,"body":"the history of the church was in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":666.45,"endTime":670.86,"body":"October of 1894. It's not even"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":666.45,"endTime":670.86,"body":"recorded in the journal"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":670.86,"endTime":674.16,"body":"discourses, but we have other"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":670.86,"endTime":674.16,"body":"records that indicate that on"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":674.16,"endTime":677.13,"body":"that occasion, Wilford Woodruff"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":674.16,"endTime":677.13,"body":"stood up in the tabernacle and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":677.13,"endTime":678.81,"body":"he made what I think was one of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":677.13,"endTime":678.81,"body":"the most remarkable"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":678.81,"endTime":681.51,"body":"announcements in the history of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":678.81,"endTime":681.51,"body":"the church. He said,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":681.51,"endTime":683.64,"body":"effectively, brothers and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":681.51,"endTime":683.64,"body":"sisters, I have an announcement"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":683.64,"endTime":686.55,"body":"to make. For the last 51 years,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":683.64,"endTime":686.55,"body":"we've been doing temple sealing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":686.55,"endTime":690.51,"body":"incorrectly. And he used the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":686.55,"endTime":690.51,"body":"word \"wrong,\" that what we're"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":690.51,"endTime":694.5,"body":"doing in the temple struck me is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":690.51,"endTime":694.5,"body":"wrong. Wow. We have been sealing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":694.89,"endTime":702.33,"body":"children to prophets. So heaven"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":694.89,"endTime":702.33,"body":"was organized dynastically. It"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":702.33,"endTime":705.9,"body":"was believed that you had to be"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":702.33,"endTime":705.9,"body":"sealed into a prophetic line. So"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":705.9,"endTime":708.84,"body":"you would be sealed to Brigham"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":705.9,"endTime":708.84,"body":"Young or Joseph Smith or John"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":708.84,"endTime":712.92,"body":"Taylor. And it's not till 1894"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":708.84,"endTime":712.92,"body":"that Wilford Woodruff says,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":712.92,"endTime":716.91,"body":"\"Well, you know, Elijah talked"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":712.92,"endTime":716.91,"body":"about the hearts of the children"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":716.91,"endTime":719.04,"body":"being turned to the fathers, not"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":716.91,"endTime":719.04,"body":"the hearts of the children being"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":719.04,"endTime":722.43,"body":"turned to the prophets.\" And he"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":719.04,"endTime":722.43,"body":"said, \"The word of the Lord came"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":722.43,"endTime":725.85,"body":"unto me saying that every child"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":722.43,"endTime":725.85,"body":"we seal to its parents and every"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":725.85,"endTime":729.51,"body":"parent to its child. So that's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":725.85,"endTime":729.51,"body":"interesting to me for a couple"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":729.51,"endTime":732.75,"body":"of reasons. One, because it"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":729.51,"endTime":732.75,"body":"shows that for 51 years, we had"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":732.81,"endTime":736.08,"body":"apparently an incorrect model of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":732.81,"endTime":736.08,"body":"how the heavenly families are"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":736.08,"endTime":743.01,"body":"organized. And two, in neither"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":736.08,"endTime":743.01,"body":"case was the emphasis on how men"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":743.01,"endTime":746.07,"body":"and women are sealed to each"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":743.01,"endTime":746.07,"body":"other. But the emphasis was on"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":746.07,"endTime":750.15,"body":"intergenerational sealing, that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":746.07,"endTime":750.15,"body":"we are sealed to our ancestors"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":750.15,"endTime":754.8,"body":"to our forebears to, to parents"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":750.15,"endTime":754.8,"body":"and to children. So there again,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":754.8,"endTime":759.06,"body":"it, it seems that those"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":754.8,"endTime":759.06,"body":"precedents, encourage us to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":759.06,"endTime":763.2,"body":"break free from a highly"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":759.06,"endTime":763.2,"body":"restricted set of expectations"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":763.74,"endTime":767.04,"body":"about the way in which nuclear"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":763.74,"endTime":767.04,"body":"families are organized and how"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":767.07,"endTime":771.12,"body":"they may be. But what I'm saying"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":767.07,"endTime":771.12,"body":"is we have less historical and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":771.12,"endTime":775.62,"body":"theological grounding for those"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":771.12,"endTime":775.62,"body":"assumptions. And maybe we have"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":775.62,"endTime":776.07,"body":"thought,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":776.27,"endTime":778.67,"body":"I have a follow up question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":776.27,"endTime":778.67,"body":"to that. So what was the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":778.67,"endTime":781.82,"body":"response of the church"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":778.67,"endTime":781.82,"body":"membership to we've been doing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":781.82,"endTime":782.63,"body":"sealings wrong?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":782.96,"endTime":785.96,"body":"I think that's a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":782.96,"endTime":785.96,"body":"terrific question. And I've"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":785.99,"endTime":790.79,"body":"tried to find what records I can"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":785.99,"endTime":790.79,"body":"of specific responses to that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":790.79,"endTime":794.33,"body":"specific announcement. And so"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":790.79,"endTime":794.33,"body":"far, I found a couple. I found"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":794.33,"endTime":798.44,"body":"one by the prominent journal"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":794.33,"endTime":798.44,"body":"keeper named Warren Foot, one by"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":798.44,"endTime":803.3,"body":"another young man of that era,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":798.44,"endTime":803.3,"body":"Darius Clement. I have records"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":803.3,"endTime":806.48,"body":"of both of their responses to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":803.3,"endTime":806.48,"body":"that very address. And they're"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":806.48,"endTime":809.57,"body":"really quite remarkable, because"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":806.48,"endTime":809.57,"body":"they both were parallel. They"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":809.57,"endTime":813.32,"body":"effectively said, \"I always felt"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":809.57,"endTime":813.32,"body":"something was wrong with the way"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":813.32,"endTime":816.68,"body":"temple sealings were being"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":813.32,"endTime":816.68,"body":"performed. But I had confidence"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":816.68,"endTime":818.99,"body":"that if I waited upon the Lord,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":816.68,"endTime":818.99,"body":"he would eventually straighten"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":818.99,"endTime":822.62,"body":"things out. And we'd come into"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":818.99,"endTime":822.62,"body":"greater alignment with his"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":822.62,"endTime":826.01,"body":"intention and purposes for the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":822.62,"endTime":826.01,"body":"human family.\" In the aftermath"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":826.01,"endTime":829.7,"body":"of that talk, Brethren, Apostles"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":826.01,"endTime":829.7,"body":"and Seventy, alike over the next"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":829.7,"endTime":833.21,"body":"few years, would would return to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":829.7,"endTime":833.21,"body":"that event and comment upon it."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":833.63,"endTime":836.72,"body":"And their comments were always"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":833.63,"endTime":836.72,"body":"in the nature of, well,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":837.26,"endTime":841.01,"body":"Revelation is ongoing. This is a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":837.26,"endTime":841.01,"body":"process. Sometimes it's trial"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":841.01,"endTime":843.8,"body":"and error. Sometimes we hit cul"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":841.01,"endTime":843.8,"body":"de sacs and dead ends, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":843.8,"endTime":847.49,"body":"we have to reformulate our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":843.8,"endTime":847.49,"body":"thinking. We were children in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":847.49,"endTime":852.32,"body":"the infancy of the church, and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":847.49,"endTime":852.32,"body":"we're continuing to mature. So I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":852.32,"endTime":856.16,"body":"think in general, the membership"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":852.32,"endTime":856.16,"body":"of the church had an incredibly"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":856.16,"endTime":861.14,"body":"healthy understanding of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":856.16,"endTime":861.14,"body":"prophetic revelation, as an"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":861.17,"endTime":866.87,"body":"imperfect process. That in the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":861.17,"endTime":866.87,"body":"total picture was always taken"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":866.87,"endTime":872.06,"body":"us in the direction of God's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":866.87,"endTime":872.06,"body":"blueprint, so to speak for, for"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":872.06,"endTime":875.15,"body":"the church, and the human"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":872.06,"endTime":875.15,"body":"family. But there was a sense"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":875.15,"endTime":877.43,"body":"that mistakes could be made"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":875.15,"endTime":877.43,"body":"along the way. And there's a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":877.43,"endTime":879.92,"body":"human element that is there, and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":877.43,"endTime":879.92,"body":"we just have to be patient."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":879.0,"endTime":882.39,"body":"So Terryl, what I'm hearing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":879.0,"endTime":882.39,"body":"you say is, there's a lot we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":882.39,"endTime":885.78,"body":"don't know, and God isn't done"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":882.39,"endTime":885.78,"body":"talking to us about the plan of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":885.78,"endTime":888.3,"body":"salvation, or what the nature of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":885.78,"endTime":888.3,"body":"eternity looks like. When I have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":888.3,"endTime":891.03,"body":"said similar things in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":888.3,"endTime":891.03,"body":"future, or in the past, people"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":891.03,"endTime":892.65,"body":"will say things like, well,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":891.03,"endTime":892.65,"body":"you're saying that there's going"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":892.65,"endTime":896.04,"body":"to be gay marriage. And what I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":892.65,"endTime":896.04,"body":"say is, you know, I don't know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":896.07,"endTime":898.95,"body":"what is going to happen, but I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":896.07,"endTime":898.95,"body":"know that the Lord isn't done"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":898.95,"endTime":901.65,"body":"talking to us about His plan for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":898.95,"endTime":901.65,"body":"his children."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":901.74,"endTime":903.3,"body":"Yeah, well, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":901.74,"endTime":903.3,"body":"think that's a healthy and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":903.3,"endTime":906.03,"body":"realistic posture to assume. I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":903.3,"endTime":906.03,"body":"don't have any expectation or"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":906.03,"endTime":910.83,"body":"anticipations either I just"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":906.03,"endTime":910.83,"body":"think that the Lord is capable"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":910.83,"endTime":914.58,"body":"of always surprising us in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":910.83,"endTime":914.58,"body":"delightful, unexpected ways."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":914.97,"endTime":917.7,"body":"That's, I think, a healthy sign"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":914.97,"endTime":917.7,"body":"of the church that takes"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":918.09,"endTime":919.68,"body":"continuing revelation serious."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":919.96,"endTime":921.73,"body":"Well, and even that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":919.96,"endTime":921.73,"body":"reminds me of Dieter F."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":921.88,"endTime":923.65,"body":"Uchtdorf's most recent"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":921.88,"endTime":923.65,"body":"conference address where he"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":923.65,"endTime":926.83,"body":"said, \"The Lord will surprise us"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":923.65,"endTime":926.83,"body":"in unexpected ways.\" You know,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":926.83,"endTime":929.08,"body":"that's just kind of what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":926.83,"endTime":929.08,"body":"happens. I want to talk to this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":929.08,"endTime":933.7,"body":"idea real quick of sometimes we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":929.08,"endTime":933.7,"body":"are limited by through our"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":933.73,"endTime":936.76,"body":"mortal eyes. We limit our view"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":933.73,"endTime":936.76,"body":"of the entire plan of salvation,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":937.0,"endTime":939.91,"body":"and we don't look at the the pre"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":937.0,"endTime":939.91,"body":"mortal and the post mortal life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":940.03,"endTime":942.76,"body":"And I feel like that's a way"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":940.03,"endTime":942.76,"body":"that I've boxed myself in, as I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":942.76,"endTime":947.17,"body":"consider like my own spirit, on"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":942.76,"endTime":947.17,"body":"this continuum. And on this,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":947.53,"endTime":950.5,"body":"like this journey, the plan of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":947.53,"endTime":950.5,"body":"happiness, I think like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":950.5,"endTime":954.13,"body":"congruence and belonging, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":950.5,"endTime":954.13,"body":"fit is one of the biggest"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":954.13,"endTime":957.07,"body":"worries, and it's for gay"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":954.13,"endTime":957.07,"body":"people, for LGBTQ people. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":957.07,"endTime":959.26,"body":"it's usually based on what's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":957.07,"endTime":959.26,"body":"going to happen after death."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":959.65,"endTime":962.35,"body":"Like, Will I still be gay? Will"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":959.65,"endTime":962.35,"body":"I be part of my family? What"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":962.35,"endTime":965.89,"body":"happens? Like there's so many"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":962.35,"endTime":965.89,"body":"questions there. And I've had"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":965.89,"endTime":968.68,"body":"the sense a lot that like, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":965.89,"endTime":968.68,"body":"don't really fit into the plan"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":968.68,"endTime":972.01,"body":"of salvation, the way it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":968.68,"endTime":972.01,"body":"described to me, currently, like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":972.01,"endTime":975.79,"body":"when I go to church, Sunday"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":972.01,"endTime":975.79,"body":"school, things like that. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":975.79,"endTime":978.79,"body":"think it's, it's been really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":975.79,"endTime":978.79,"body":"healthy for me to remember that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":979.03,"endTime":981.82,"body":"this isn't the beginning, I've"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":979.03,"endTime":981.82,"body":"actually existed for a really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":981.82,"endTime":984.43,"body":"long time. If I believe in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":981.82,"endTime":984.43,"body":"pre-existence and the premortal"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":984.43,"endTime":989.35,"body":"life, then my spirit has been"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":984.43,"endTime":989.35,"body":"gaining experience and knowledge"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":989.44,"endTime":993.25,"body":"and character for, I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":989.44,"endTime":993.25,"body":"like, what even is time, you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":993.25,"endTime":997.6,"body":"know? And that I came into the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":993.25,"endTime":997.6,"body":"earth as a being already. And so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":997.6,"endTime":1001.23,"body":"I have been fitting in the plan"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":997.6,"endTime":1001.23,"body":"of salvation. Ever since I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1001.26,"endTime":1005.52,"body":"my inception, you know. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1001.26,"endTime":1005.52,"body":"remember the first time, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1005.52,"endTime":1007.68,"body":"really prayed about my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1005.52,"endTime":1007.68,"body":"orientation to figure out what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1007.68,"endTime":1011.34,"body":"it was. And it's kind of like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1007.68,"endTime":1011.34,"body":"you were saying earlier, what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1011.34,"endTime":1014.34,"body":"parts of me are eternal and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1011.34,"endTime":1014.34,"body":"real, and will stay with me? And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1014.34,"endTime":1018.18,"body":"what parts won't? I started"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1014.34,"endTime":1018.18,"body":"asking God those questions,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1018.75,"endTime":1022.02,"body":"really believing for the first"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1018.75,"endTime":1022.02,"body":"time that I could get answers. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1022.02,"endTime":1023.94,"body":"don't want to share all of that,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1022.02,"endTime":1023.94,"body":"because some of it's pretty"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1023.94,"endTime":1027.72,"body":"personal. But as I was saying,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1023.94,"endTime":1027.72,"body":"this prayer, I had a very, very"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1027.72,"endTime":1031.32,"body":"strong impression, that in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1027.72,"endTime":1031.32,"body":"premortal existence, this aspect"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1031.32,"endTime":1034.11,"body":"of me was somehow part of my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1031.32,"endTime":1034.11,"body":"spirit.  I didn't really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1034.11,"endTime":1036.39,"body":"understand what that looked"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1034.11,"endTime":1036.39,"body":"like. And you were saying that,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1036.57,"endTime":1040.5,"body":"in your view of Adam and Eve,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1036.57,"endTime":1040.5,"body":"sexuality came in mortal life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1041.01,"endTime":1044.34,"body":"But I've always believed and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1041.01,"endTime":1044.34,"body":"just felt that this aspect of me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1044.34,"endTime":1047.31,"body":"being gay is so much more than"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1044.34,"endTime":1047.31,"body":"sex. There, there are components"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1047.31,"endTime":1051.0,"body":"like relational components,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1047.31,"endTime":1051.0,"body":"attraction in my worldview, go"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1051.0,"endTime":1054.15,"body":"so much deeper than sex. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1051.0,"endTime":1054.15,"body":"felt strongly that that has"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1054.15,"endTime":1057.33,"body":"always been a part of my spirit,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1054.15,"endTime":1057.33,"body":"and was part of the way that I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1057.33,"endTime":1063.15,"body":"was lovingly created by Heavenly"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1057.33,"endTime":1063.15,"body":"Father. As that being, I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1063.18,"endTime":1066.84,"body":"given a body and brought to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1063.18,"endTime":1066.84,"body":"Earth. To me that knowledge and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1066.84,"endTime":1070.98,"body":"in that, that testimony, I have"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1066.84,"endTime":1070.98,"body":"it that who I am, was created"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1070.98,"endTime":1074.94,"body":"and intentional, and was able to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1070.98,"endTime":1074.94,"body":"pass through stage one of the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1074.94,"endTime":1079.02,"body":"plan salvation gives me hope"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1074.94,"endTime":1079.02,"body":"that I, as this same being"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1079.32,"endTime":1083.13,"body":"that's now had more experiences"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1079.32,"endTime":1083.13,"body":"and kind of been able to work"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1083.13,"endTime":1085.35,"body":"through things a little bit"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1083.13,"endTime":1085.35,"body":"differently, will be able to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1085.35,"endTime":1090.51,"body":"continue and find place, the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1085.35,"endTime":1090.51,"body":"right place as an eternal being."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1091.62,"endTime":1093.45,"body":"It makes sense to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1091.62,"endTime":1093.45,"body":"suggest that a third of our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1093.45,"endTime":1098.49,"body":"identity is eternal, from our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1093.45,"endTime":1098.49,"body":"eternal past. A third is an"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1098.49,"endTime":1101.73,"body":"inheritance from our parents,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1098.49,"endTime":1101.73,"body":"and a third is shaped by our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1101.73,"endTime":1106.68,"body":"social environment. So, but we"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1101.73,"endTime":1106.68,"body":"can't sort that out. I can't"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1106.68,"endTime":1109.35,"body":"look into a mirror and say,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1106.68,"endTime":1109.35,"body":"\"Okay, I think this aspect of me"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1109.35,"endTime":1111.66,"body":"probably is just completely"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1109.35,"endTime":1111.66,"body":"contingent on my parents, and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1111.66,"endTime":1114.45,"body":"it's not really a part of who I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1111.66,"endTime":1114.45,"body":"am eternally.\" We have no way of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1114.45,"endTime":1118.59,"body":"knowing that we can't sort out"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1114.45,"endTime":1118.59,"body":"those threads, those filaments"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1118.59,"endTime":1123.12,"body":"of our identity. All I'm"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1118.59,"endTime":1123.12,"body":"suggesting is that it would be"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1123.12,"endTime":1129.66,"body":"wrong to project the central"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1123.12,"endTime":1129.66,"body":"role that sexual attraction has"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1129.66,"endTime":1136.95,"body":"in this life into an eternal"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1129.66,"endTime":1136.95,"body":"role. And yes, I readily"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1136.95,"endTime":1139.68,"body":"recognize I wouldn't, for a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1136.95,"endTime":1139.68,"body":"moment want to reduce gay"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1139.68,"endTime":1142.65,"body":"identity to sexual attraction. I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1139.68,"endTime":1142.65,"body":"know that involves much more"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1142.65,"endTime":1145.26,"body":"than that. But there's no"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1142.65,"endTime":1145.26,"body":"question that that figures"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1145.26,"endTime":1148.74,"body":"prominently, right? In the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1145.26,"endTime":1148.74,"body":"anxieties and worries and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1148.74,"endTime":1153.3,"body":"challenges of what it means to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1148.74,"endTime":1153.3,"body":"be gay. Is what what do I do"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1153.3,"endTime":1154.47,"body":"with a sexual attraction?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1154.47,"endTime":1157.14,"body":"Right, especially"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1154.47,"endTime":1157.14,"body":"withinthe context of marriage"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1157.17,"endTime":1158.28,"body":"and temple marriage?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1158.0,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"Exactly. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1158.0,"endTime":1160.46,"body":"exactly. And that's why I would"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1160.46,"endTime":1163.76,"body":"say that as a heterosexual, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1160.46,"endTime":1163.76,"body":"don't expect to experience my"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1163.76,"endTime":1168.62,"body":"sexuality, in the same way in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1163.76,"endTime":1168.62,"body":"the world to come. I hope that I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1168.62,"endTime":1171.8,"body":"don't have to fight the same"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1168.62,"endTime":1171.8,"body":"kinds of proclivities and lusts"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1171.8,"endTime":1174.74,"body":"of the flesh, on the other side"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1171.8,"endTime":1174.74,"body":"of the veil that are incident to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1174.74,"endTime":1178.22,"body":"the to the mortal condition that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1174.74,"endTime":1178.22,"body":"I have it now. So I have to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1178.22,"endTime":1183.2,"body":"believe that human relationality"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1178.22,"endTime":1183.2,"body":"will be experienced differently."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1183.32,"endTime":1186.29,"body":"I mean, there'll be a lot that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1183.32,"endTime":1186.29,"body":"carries over. But I don't think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1186.29,"endTime":1188.66,"body":"that everything will and I think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1186.29,"endTime":1188.66,"body":"there will be new dimensions and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1194.03,"body":"new aspects when our minds and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1188.66,"endTime":1194.03,"body":"spirits are clarified of the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1194.03,"endTime":1199.31,"body":"impediments of our Darwinian"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1194.03,"endTime":1199.31,"body":"fleshly inheritance. And I think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1199.31,"endTime":1201.74,"body":"that's why The Gospel of John"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1199.31,"endTime":1201.74,"body":"and the Book of Mormon talk"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1201.74,"endTime":1207.47,"body":"about \"knowing as we are known\""},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1201.74,"endTime":1207.47,"body":"in a new way, I think that that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1207.47,"endTime":1210.2,"body":"a different kind of self will be"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1207.47,"endTime":1210.2,"body":"revealed and it will be"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1210.2,"endTime":1213.29,"body":"beautiful and glorious. But I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1210.2,"endTime":1213.29,"body":"just I want to make one other"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1213.29,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"comment that I think expands"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1213.29,"endTime":1216.74,"body":"upon the insight that you"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1222.05,"body":"gained. I think it's it's a one"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1216.74,"endTime":1222.05,"body":"of the great misfortunes of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1222.2,"endTime":1225.95,"body":"Latter-day Saint -ism's place in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1222.2,"endTime":1225.95,"body":"the world, that we have a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1225.95,"endTime":1230.9,"body":"reputation for being elitist or"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1225.95,"endTime":1230.9,"body":"exclusionary, when in actual"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1230.9,"endTime":1235.52,"body":"fact, there's no question that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1230.9,"endTime":1235.52,"body":"Latter-day Saints theology is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1235.52,"endTime":1241.37,"body":"the most encompassing, embracing"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1235.52,"endTime":1241.37,"body":"Universalist theology in the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1241.37,"endTime":1244.97,"body":"history of Christian thought. I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1241.37,"endTime":1244.97,"body":"mean, Joseph Smith was convinced"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1245.03,"endTime":1250.67,"body":"that every single human spirit"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1245.03,"endTime":1250.67,"body":"would eventually find a place in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1250.67,"endTime":1255.92,"body":"the eternal family. And that's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1250.67,"endTime":1255.92,"body":"absolutely central in core to my"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1255.92,"endTime":1258.8,"body":"understanding of what it means"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1255.92,"endTime":1258.8,"body":"to be a Latter-day Saint. So"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1258.8,"endTime":1262.91,"body":"it's not imaginable or thinkable"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1258.8,"endTime":1262.91,"body":"in any sense of the word that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1262.91,"endTime":1266.6,"body":"anybody is going to find"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1262.91,"endTime":1266.6,"body":"themselves on the peripheries of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1266.6,"endTime":1267.71,"body":"that heavenly family."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1268.11,"endTime":1269.94,"body":"As you've been talking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1268.11,"endTime":1269.94,"body":"Terryl, I've been thinking, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1269.94,"endTime":1273.24,"body":"as Charlie spoke, I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1269.94,"endTime":1273.24,"body":"about this time of my life in my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1273.24,"endTime":1276.18,"body":"20s, when I thought, okay,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1273.24,"endTime":1276.18,"body":"something has to change, either"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1276.18,"endTime":1280.8,"body":"my orientation has to change,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1276.18,"endTime":1280.8,"body":"or, or the church has to change,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1280.86,"endTime":1283.02,"body":"like, those are the two options,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1280.86,"endTime":1283.02,"body":"something's got to change for me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1283.02,"endTime":1287.13,"body":"to have a good eternity. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1283.02,"endTime":1287.13,"body":"felt really trapped. Like you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1287.13,"endTime":1288.81,"body":"say that the gospel is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1287.13,"endTime":1288.81,"body":"expansive, and includes"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1288.81,"endTime":1290.16,"body":"everyone. But that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1288.81,"endTime":1290.16,"body":"something that I could really"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1290.16,"endTime":1295.35,"body":"see. And it wasn't until I kind"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1290.16,"endTime":1295.35,"body":"of got out of feeling trapped"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1295.35,"endTime":1298.92,"body":"and started exploring and really"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1295.35,"endTime":1298.92,"body":"thinking about, well, \"How do I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1298.92,"endTime":1301.35,"body":"fit into the plan?\" that things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1298.92,"endTime":1301.35,"body":"really started to open up and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1301.35,"endTime":1304.05,"body":"felt like I was able to find my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1301.35,"endTime":1304.05,"body":"place. Like I remember once"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1304.08,"endTime":1307.29,"body":"hearing a church leader say"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1304.08,"endTime":1307.29,"body":"that, that there are no"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1307.32,"endTime":1309.24,"body":"homosexuals in the church,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1307.32,"endTime":1309.24,"body":"because we're all children of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1309.24,"endTime":1313.47,"body":"God. And and then he said it. He"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1309.24,"endTime":1313.47,"body":"said, \"If you don't get married,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1313.5,"endTime":1316.02,"body":"the plan is halted for you.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1313.5,"endTime":1316.02,"body":"Those are the exact words we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1316.02,"endTime":1319.71,"body":"don't get married, the plan is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1316.02,"endTime":1319.71,"body":"halted for you. And I was......"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1320.16,"endTime":1320.94,"body":"devastated?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1320.96,"endTime":1323.69,"body":"Yeah, that's the right"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1320.96,"endTime":1323.69,"body":"word. Yeah. And some of the I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1323.69,"endTime":1326.21,"body":"remember in general conference,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1323.69,"endTime":1326.21,"body":"hearing, hearing an apostle say"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1326.21,"endTime":1328.52,"body":"that that the end of all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1326.21,"endTime":1328.52,"body":"activity in the church, is that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1328.52,"endTime":1331.16,"body":"a man, his wife, and their"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1328.52,"endTime":1331.16,"body":"children are happy at home. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1331.16,"endTime":1333.83,"body":"said, \"Well, I don't have a wife"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1331.16,"endTime":1333.83,"body":"or children. So what's the point"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1333.83,"endTime":1337.19,"body":"of the church for someone like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1333.83,"endTime":1337.19,"body":"me?\" And so what I did was I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1337.25,"endTime":1340.19,"body":"mentioned this on a previous"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1337.25,"endTime":1340.19,"body":"episode, but I pulled out my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1340.19,"endTime":1343.67,"body":"Preach My Gospel, and in Preach"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1340.19,"endTime":1343.67,"body":"My Gospel there's in chapter two"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1343.67,"endTime":1346.22,"body":"about the plan of salvation,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1343.67,"endTime":1346.22,"body":"there's a whole list of, of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1346.22,"endTime":1350.0,"body":"chapters about the plan. And as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1346.22,"endTime":1350.0,"body":"I read about it, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1350.0,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"thought I found it well, in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1350.0,"endTime":1352.25,"body":"Book of Mormon contains the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1352.25,"endTime":1355.94,"body":"fullness of the plan of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1352.25,"endTime":1355.94,"body":"salvation. And so as I read"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1355.94,"endTime":1359.87,"body":"about that, it said, It called"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1355.94,"endTime":1359.87,"body":"it the plan of happiness, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1359.87,"endTime":1362.69,"body":"the plan of redemption. And as I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1359.87,"endTime":1362.69,"body":"read all those chapters, I found"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1365.54,"body":"that they weren't really about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1362.69,"endTime":1365.54,"body":"marriage. They were about my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1365.54,"endTime":1368.72,"body":"relationship with God,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1365.54,"endTime":1368.72,"body":"developing the attributes of the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1368.72,"endTime":1372.68,"body":"Savior and building Zion along"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1368.72,"endTime":1372.68,"body":"the way. As I, as I read that I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1372.68,"endTime":1375.5,"body":"found, well I do fit in this,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1372.68,"endTime":1375.5,"body":"like, this plan is all about me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1375.77,"endTime":1378.14,"body":"And as I, as I started to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1375.77,"endTime":1378.14,"body":"realize, well, what is the plan"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1378.14,"endTime":1382.73,"body":"of salvation for Ben Schilaty? I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1378.14,"endTime":1382.73,"body":"found that all the ways I felt"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1382.73,"endTime":1386.78,"body":"trapped, weren't the ways I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1382.73,"endTime":1386.78,"body":"supposed to be living. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1386.78,"endTime":1389.9,"body":"felt guided to a different life"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1386.78,"endTime":1389.9,"body":"that has been really wonderful"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1389.9,"endTime":1390.32,"body":"for me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1390.66,"endTime":1393.51,"body":"Yeah. And you know,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1390.66,"endTime":1393.51,"body":"that goes back to the key that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1393.51,"endTime":1396.03,"body":"the center of the plan of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1393.51,"endTime":1396.03,"body":"salvation being the Atonement of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1396.03,"endTime":1398.55,"body":"Jesus Christ. If we really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1396.03,"endTime":1398.55,"body":"believe that Christ's atonement"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1398.55,"endTime":1401.97,"body":"is all encompassing, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1398.55,"endTime":1401.97,"body":"personal, worrying about the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1401.97,"endTime":1405.48,"body":"future, and what's going to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1401.97,"endTime":1405.48,"body":"happen to our souls, it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1405.48,"endTime":1407.49,"body":"really matter, because what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1405.48,"endTime":1407.49,"body":"we're really supposed to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1407.52,"endTime":1411.54,"body":"doing now is learning how to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1407.52,"endTime":1411.54,"body":"develop faith in Jesus Christ."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1412.2,"endTime":1414.9,"body":"Like what if we reframed and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1412.2,"endTime":1414.9,"body":"looked at the plan of salvation"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1414.9,"endTime":1418.71,"body":"as accessing the atonement of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1414.9,"endTime":1418.71,"body":"Jesus Christ? For an LGBTQ"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1418.71,"endTime":1423.06,"body":"person, there's not really like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1418.71,"endTime":1423.06,"body":"a guidebook or like a pattern to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1423.06,"endTime":1427.83,"body":"follow. But we do have a Savior"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1423.06,"endTime":1427.83,"body":"who knows us perfectly. And if"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1427.83,"endTime":1431.31,"body":"we understood better that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1427.83,"endTime":1431.31,"body":"repentance isn't so much about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1431.31,"endTime":1435.0,"body":"restitution as it is learning,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1431.31,"endTime":1435.0,"body":"and that we have agency, we can"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1435.0,"endTime":1437.85,"body":"honor that agency, and we can"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1435.0,"endTime":1437.85,"body":"move and make decisions and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1437.85,"endTime":1440.7,"body":"recalibrate and switch what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1437.85,"endTime":1440.7,"body":"we're doing and try to figure"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1440.7,"endTime":1445.11,"body":"out where we're supposed to fit."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1440.7,"endTime":1445.11,"body":"Then, on top of that, it's just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1445.11,"endTime":1449.79,"body":"faith that like, as we grow"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1445.11,"endTime":1449.79,"body":"closer to Christ, that that is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1449.79,"endTime":1452.58,"body":"our plan of salvation, we will"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1449.79,"endTime":1452.58,"body":"find our fit."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1453.11,"endTime":1455.15,"body":"It seems to me"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1453.11,"endTime":1455.15,"body":"that at this moment in our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1455.15,"endTime":1457.73,"body":"cultural evolution and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1455.15,"endTime":1457.73,"body":"theological evolution, that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1457.73,"endTime":1462.71,"body":"being gay may be the the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1457.73,"endTime":1462.71,"body":"greatest, most dramatic instance"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1462.83,"endTime":1466.25,"body":"of the challenge of Zion"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1462.83,"endTime":1466.25,"body":"building. But that's always been"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1466.25,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"the central challenge, right? Is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1466.25,"endTime":1472.4,"body":"how do we make the church truly"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1472.4,"endTime":1478.4,"body":"inclusive, so that we emulate"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1472.4,"endTime":1478.4,"body":"the city of Enoch, or the Zion"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1478.4,"endTime":1482.27,"body":"of a 4th Nephi? Yeah. So it"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1478.4,"endTime":1482.27,"body":"seems to me that there's there's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1482.27,"endTime":1486.26,"body":"always some group that is"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1482.27,"endTime":1486.26,"body":"ostracized, marginalized,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1486.29,"endTime":1490.7,"body":"devalued. I think, in many ways,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1486.29,"endTime":1490.7,"body":"right? There's a clear analogy"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1490.7,"endTime":1494.06,"body":"between the position of LGBT"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1490.7,"endTime":1494.06,"body":"people today and the position of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1494.06,"endTime":1497.87,"body":"blacks in the church pre 1978,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1494.06,"endTime":1497.87,"body":"who were asking the exact same"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1497.87,"endTime":1499.52,"body":"questions right? What is life?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1499.52,"endTime":1501.8,"body":"It is our turn to carry"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1499.52,"endTime":1501.8,"body":"the torch?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1503.04,"endTime":1505.14,"body":"Exactly. And"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1503.04,"endTime":1505.14,"body":"that's why it's it seems to me"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1505.14,"endTime":1509.13,"body":"that the best attitude going"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1505.14,"endTime":1509.13,"body":"forward is just to be cognizant"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1509.67,"endTime":1513.57,"body":"of how variable and shifting our"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1509.67,"endTime":1513.57,"body":"understanding of the family has"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1513.57,"endTime":1517.83,"body":"been. I mean, we've gone as I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1513.57,"endTime":1517.83,"body":"said, from polygamy to dynastic"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1517.89,"endTime":1522.72,"body":"to monogamous nuclear, and, you"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1517.89,"endTime":1522.72,"body":"know, who knows where we will"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1522.72,"endTime":1524.7,"body":"end up eventually?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1525.26,"endTime":1528.41,"body":"I think that's exactly"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1525.26,"endTime":1528.41,"body":"right. And, you know, we talked"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1528.41,"endTime":1530.36,"body":"about, you know, we don't know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1528.41,"endTime":1530.36,"body":"what's gonna happen in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1530.36,"endTime":1533.42,"body":"future, like, we don't know what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1530.36,"endTime":1533.42,"body":"God has yet to teach us. And,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1533.45,"endTime":1536.9,"body":"and I think it's really fun and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1533.45,"endTime":1536.9,"body":"beautiful to think about, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1536.9,"endTime":1540.23,"body":"the expanses of God and how He"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1536.9,"endTime":1540.23,"body":"has for us to fit in. And yet,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1540.26,"endTime":1543.41,"body":"there are so many people like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1540.26,"endTime":1543.41,"body":"like right now who just feel so"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1543.41,"endTime":1546.56,"body":"excluded from the plan. And I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1543.41,"endTime":1546.56,"body":"been thinking about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1546.56,"endTime":1549.98,"body":"like, what message would I want"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1546.56,"endTime":1549.98,"body":"to give to someone who right now"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1550.01,"endTime":1553.13,"body":"feels excluded? And we can talk"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1550.01,"endTime":1553.13,"body":"about well, we don't know a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1553.13,"endTime":1556.31,"body":"about the next life and, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1553.13,"endTime":1556.31,"body":"know that there were times when"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1556.31,"endTime":1558.74,"body":"that wouldn't have been"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1556.31,"endTime":1558.74,"body":"comforting to me. To know that I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1558.74,"endTime":1562.97,"body":"like now I feel I feel okay and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1558.74,"endTime":1562.97,"body":"settled about that. But I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1562.97,"endTime":1566.12,"body":"remember when I, when I was in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1562.97,"endTime":1566.12,"body":"living in Tucson, my last"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1566.12,"endTime":1569.51,"body":"semester of graduate school"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1566.12,"endTime":1569.51,"body":"there, I had a group of LGBTQ"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1569.51,"endTime":1571.61,"body":"Latter-day Saints that we met"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1569.51,"endTime":1571.61,"body":"together regularly. And I said,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1571.61,"endTime":1573.83,"body":"I want to read the Book of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1571.61,"endTime":1573.83,"body":"Mormon, my last semester. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1573.83,"endTime":1578.36,"body":"invite everyone to read with me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1573.83,"endTime":1578.36,"body":"And, like 10 people wanted to do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1578.36,"endTime":1582.05,"body":"it. And we made a reading chart"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1578.36,"endTime":1582.05,"body":"with stickers and we read five"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1582.05,"endTime":1584.84,"body":"pages a day, then we'd get"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1582.05,"endTime":1584.84,"body":"together once or twice a week to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1584.84,"endTime":1587.18,"body":"discuss our reading. And for the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1584.84,"endTime":1587.18,"body":"first time, I was reading the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1587.18,"endTime":1589.4,"body":"Book of Mormon, with like a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1587.18,"endTime":1589.4,"body":"queer lens, like, like, what is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1589.4,"endTime":1591.83,"body":"it? And we called it  the queer"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1589.4,"endTime":1591.83,"body":"Book of Mormon study. And for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1591.83,"endTime":1593.96,"body":"the first time, like, read the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1591.83,"endTime":1593.96,"body":"Book of Mormon as a gay person,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1593.99,"endTime":1596.84,"body":"and I remember just like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1593.99,"endTime":1596.84,"body":"reading about Ammon and thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1596.87,"endTime":1599.48,"body":"is Ammon gay? because...."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1599.51,"endTime":1600.74,"body":"He he turned down the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1599.51,"endTime":1600.74,"body":"princess..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1600.78,"endTime":1602.67,"body":"I know the king's like, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1600.78,"endTime":1602.67,"body":"king's like, \"Marry, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1602.67,"endTime":1603.66,"body":"princess.\"  He's like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1602.67,"endTime":1603.66,"body":"\"Nevermind.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1605.04,"endTime":1607.26,"body":"I'll go shovel, shovel"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1605.04,"endTime":1607.26,"body":"horse manure."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1607.84,"endTime":1610.09,"body":"And, and I'm not saying"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1607.84,"endTime":1610.09,"body":"that he was, like, we know very"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1610.09,"endTime":1612.7,"body":"little about his personal life,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1610.09,"endTime":1612.7,"body":"but there was no record of him"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1612.7,"endTime":1615.67,"body":"getting married. And he was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1612.7,"endTime":1615.67,"body":"like, he did this amazing thing,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1616.09,"endTime":1618.1,"body":"and was part of the conversion"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1616.09,"endTime":1618.1,"body":"of these people that ended up"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1618.1,"endTime":1622.15,"body":"saving his nation. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1618.1,"endTime":1622.15,"body":"remember thinking, if someone"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1622.15,"endTime":1625.06,"body":"who had never mentioned their"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1622.15,"endTime":1625.06,"body":"marriage can do that much good,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1625.15,"endTime":1628.87,"body":"you know, how much good can Ben"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1625.15,"endTime":1628.87,"body":"Schilaty do in the world? And,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1628.87,"endTime":1631.42,"body":"and that really gave me hope for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1628.87,"endTime":1631.42,"body":"like how I can live life now."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1631.63,"endTime":1635.05,"body":"And, and you know, how I can be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1631.63,"endTime":1635.05,"body":"an instrument in God's hands."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1635.05,"endTime":1637.93,"body":"And so, you know, my questions"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1635.05,"endTime":1637.93,"body":"stopped being like, \"Well, what,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1638.05,"endTime":1640.42,"body":"what kind of marriage"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1638.05,"endTime":1640.42,"body":"relationship am I going to have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1640.42,"endTime":1643.6,"body":"the next life?\" to \"How am I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1640.42,"endTime":1643.6,"body":"going to build Zion now?\" What"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1643.6,"endTime":1646.36,"body":"like you were saying, and that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1643.6,"endTime":1646.36,"body":"can still be a scary"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1646.36,"endTime":1649.63,"body":"proposition, because we have,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1646.36,"endTime":1649.63,"body":"you know, not only culture and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1649.63,"endTime":1652.0,"body":"doctrine that that teaches us to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1649.63,"endTime":1652.0,"body":"want to be part of an eternal"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1652.0,"endTime":1655.63,"body":"family also just like a natural"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1652.0,"endTime":1655.63,"body":"impulse to be part of a family."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1655.9,"endTime":1658.27,"body":"But that was something really"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1655.9,"endTime":1658.27,"body":"important to me, just seeing,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1658.39,"endTime":1661.42,"body":"just reading the Book of Mormon"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1658.39,"endTime":1661.42,"body":"through like, like the lens of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1661.42,"endTime":1665.05,"body":"my life as a gay person seeing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1661.42,"endTime":1665.05,"body":"ways in the Book of Mormon, that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1665.08,"endTime":1666.61,"body":"I could do God's work."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1666.66,"endTime":1668.85,"body":"Yeah, Ben, I cannot"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1666.66,"endTime":1668.85,"body":"echo that enough. The first time"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1668.85,"endTime":1672.69,"body":"I read the Book of Mormon"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1668.85,"endTime":1672.69,"body":"through gay eyes, I was shocked"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1672.87,"endTime":1676.41,"body":"at what I learned about myself"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1672.87,"endTime":1676.41,"body":"and who I am and who I want to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1676.41,"endTime":1680.28,"body":"be and what I feel like I should"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1676.41,"endTime":1680.28,"body":"become. Like, try, really try to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1680.28,"endTime":1682.89,"body":"read it without the parameters"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1680.28,"endTime":1682.89,"body":"and the barriers and the horse"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1682.89,"endTime":1687.03,"body":"blinders of culture, and just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1682.89,"endTime":1687.03,"body":"say, \"What do I glean from this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1687.06,"endTime":1690.57,"body":"as me?\" And I think you'll be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1687.06,"endTime":1690.57,"body":"really surprised. I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1690.57,"endTime":1693.72,"body":"about this, too. You said that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1690.57,"endTime":1693.72,"body":"this idea of like, Oh, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1693.72,"endTime":1697.05,"body":"\"Well, we don't know a lot,\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1693.72,"endTime":1697.05,"body":"isn't very comforting. I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1697.05,"endTime":1699.78,"body":"trying to think of what I would"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1697.05,"endTime":1699.78,"body":"say to someone who, who maybe"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1699.78,"endTime":1702.72,"body":"feels like they're a wrench in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1699.78,"endTime":1702.72,"body":"the plan, you know, I think I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1702.72,"endTime":1705.3,"body":"would say, I don't really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1702.72,"endTime":1705.3,"body":"believe that there are wrenches"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1705.3,"endTime":1708.45,"body":"in the plan. But if you are a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1705.3,"endTime":1708.45,"body":"wrench in the plan, a wrench is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1708.45,"endTime":1712.56,"body":"useful. And like there's a place"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1708.45,"endTime":1712.56,"body":"for you like, like that we need"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1712.59,"endTime":1715.8,"body":"everyone. And we need diverse"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1712.59,"endTime":1715.8,"body":"perspectives and different"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1715.8,"endTime":1719.52,"body":"people. And I feel very strongly"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1715.8,"endTime":1719.52,"body":"that we're created in the image"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1719.52,"endTime":1722.85,"body":"of God. And so as we get to know"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1719.52,"endTime":1722.85,"body":"one another, like, collectively,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1722.85,"endTime":1726.42,"body":"we represent God. And if we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1722.85,"endTime":1726.42,"body":"don't have you, there's a piece"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1726.42,"endTime":1729.81,"body":"of God that we're not going to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1726.42,"endTime":1729.81,"body":"get to know. And I believe that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1730.2,"endTime":1731.91,"body":"God wants you with Him."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1732.24,"endTime":1734.55,"body":"There's just one"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1732.24,"endTime":1734.55,"body":"reflection I have on what you"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1734.55,"endTime":1742.71,"body":"said, is that you saw your"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1734.55,"endTime":1742.71,"body":"plight as an LGBT, unhappy"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1742.71,"endTime":1745.65,"body":"Latter-day Saint as your"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1742.71,"endTime":1745.65,"body":"responsibility to work through"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1745.71,"endTime":1748.86,"body":"and you found a way to do that."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1745.71,"endTime":1748.86,"body":"But I think it's important to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1748.86,"endTime":1751.95,"body":"point out that to the extent"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1748.86,"endTime":1751.95,"body":"that LGBT people don't feel"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1751.95,"endTime":1754.17,"body":"comfortable or happy in the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1751.95,"endTime":1754.17,"body":"church, that's also an"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1754.17,"endTime":1756.63,"body":"indictment of the membership."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1754.17,"endTime":1756.63,"body":"Right?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1756.99,"endTime":1757.41,"body":"Thank you."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1757.4,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"Because the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1757.4,"endTime":1760.37,"body":"membership has failed to create"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1760.4,"endTime":1762.53,"body":"the environment. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1760.4,"endTime":1762.53,"body":"mentioned that I'm working on a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1762.53,"endTime":1765.59,"body":"history of of Christianity right"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1762.53,"endTime":1765.59,"body":"now. I for months, I've been"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1765.59,"endTime":1770.48,"body":"immersed, immersed in every"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1765.59,"endTime":1770.48,"body":"source I can find that addresses"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1770.51,"endTime":1776.15,"body":"What was the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1770.51,"endTime":1776.15,"body":"most distinctive feature of"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1781.07,"body":"early Christianity? What made it"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1776.15,"endTime":1781.07,"body":"stand out? What what drew the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1781.07,"endTime":1785.03,"body":"wrath and ire of the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1781.07,"endTime":1785.03,"body":"persecutors? And what was the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1785.06,"endTime":1788.93,"body":"catalyst that created this"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1785.06,"endTime":1788.93,"body":"church of unprecedented growth"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1788.93,"endTime":1793.52,"body":"and appeal? And there's no"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1788.93,"endTime":1793.52,"body":"there's no controversy among the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1793.52,"endTime":1798.98,"body":"scholars of early Christianity."},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1793.52,"endTime":1798.98,"body":"It was the universality of the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1798.98,"endTime":1802.55,"body":"love that these early Christian"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1798.98,"endTime":1802.55,"body":"disciples manifested for one"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1802.55,"endTime":1806.09,"body":"another. There was no precedent"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1802.55,"endTime":1806.09,"body":"for that in the ancient world."},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1806.72,"endTime":1810.08,"body":"They created an environment in"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1806.72,"endTime":1810.08,"body":"which everybody felt part in the"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1810.08,"endTime":1814.34,"body":"link  of an extended family. And"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1810.08,"endTime":1814.34,"body":"it seems that we're we're clearl"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1814.34,"endTime":1818.03,"body":"a long way from that if we sti"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1814.34,"endTime":1818.03,"body":"l have people that are experie"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1818.03,"endTime":1821.24,"body":"cing racism in the church an"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1818.03,"endTime":1821.24,"body":"homophobia in the churc"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1821.24,"endTime":1825.17,"body":"and all other kinds of feelings"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1821.24,"endTime":1825.17,"body":"of exclusion and non-belon"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1825.44,"endTime":1830.9,"body":"ing. So the responsibility work"},{"speaker":"this one question","startTime":1825.44,"endTime":1830.9,"body":"on both sides."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1831.66,"endTime":1833.4,"body":"You know, it's interesting,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1831.66,"endTime":1833.4,"body":"as you've been talking, I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1833.4,"endTime":1835.56,"body":"been doing the Come Follow Me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1833.4,"endTime":1835.56,"body":"reading this year and reading"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1835.56,"endTime":1837.9,"body":"the Book of Mormon. And there"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1835.56,"endTime":1837.9,"body":"are a number of times where it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1837.9,"endTime":1840.99,"body":"talks about the way that church"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1837.9,"endTime":1840.99,"body":"members are hindering the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1840.99,"endTime":1843.27,"body":"progress of the church. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1840.99,"endTime":1843.27,"body":"Like it wasn't because the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1843.27,"endTime":1845.4,"body":"church wasn't true, or because"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1843.27,"endTime":1845.4,"body":"the doctrine wasn't true. But"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1845.4,"endTime":1848.01,"body":"the way the church members"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1845.4,"endTime":1848.01,"body":"weren't just weren't ready."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1848.04,"endTime":1850.86,"body":"Yeah. And it makes me think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1848.04,"endTime":1850.86,"body":"like, like today, or the way"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1850.86,"endTime":1853.71,"body":"we're treating people that are"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1850.86,"endTime":1853.71,"body":"hindering the work of God. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1853.71,"endTime":1855.81,"body":"think the answer, I think, yes,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1853.71,"endTime":1855.81,"body":"I think it is."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1855.0,"endTime":1858.21,"body":"I'd like to think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1855.0,"endTime":1858.21,"body":"just as an observer and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1858.21,"endTime":1860.85,"body":"commentator on Mormon history,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1858.21,"endTime":1860.85,"body":"I'd like to think that there's"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1861.15,"endTime":1864.99,"body":"discernible progress that's been"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1861.15,"endTime":1864.99,"body":"made in the last generation. I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1864.99,"endTime":1868.11,"body":"would, I would hope that you"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1864.99,"endTime":1868.11,"body":"would see and feel that."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1868.29,"endTime":1870.12,"body":"I think the fact that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1868.29,"endTime":1870.12,"body":"we're sitting here having this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1870.12,"endTime":1874.41,"body":"conversation with two active gay"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1870.12,"endTime":1874.41,"body":"church members proves that. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1874.53,"endTime":1878.55,"body":"don't know. Like, I feel this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1874.53,"endTime":1878.55,"body":"stuff happening more and more,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1878.55,"endTime":1878.88,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1878.94,"endTime":1881.28,"body":"And the fact that I work as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1878.94,"endTime":1881.28,"body":"an openly gay Honor Code"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1881.28,"endTime":1882.99,"body":"Administrator at BYU, like, that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1881.28,"endTime":1882.99,"body":"couldn't have happened a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1882.99,"endTime":1888.18,"body":"generation ago. Couldn't have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1882.99,"endTime":1888.18,"body":"been ten years ago. Yeah. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1888.18,"endTime":1889.5,"body":"we're definitely making"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1888.18,"endTime":1889.5,"body":"progress."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1889.78,"endTime":1892.93,"body":"You know, I'm thinking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1889.78,"endTime":1892.93,"body":"I just want to, I don't know, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1892.93,"endTime":1895.36,"body":"hope this doesn't sound like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1892.93,"endTime":1895.36,"body":"irreverent or inappropriate. But"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1895.87,"endTime":1900.01,"body":"I've had people suggest to me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1895.87,"endTime":1900.01,"body":"that I will most likely be a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1900.01,"endTime":1903.25,"body":"Ministering Angel in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1900.01,"endTime":1903.25,"body":"eternities. And I'm like, Okay,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1903.25,"endTime":1907.15,"body":"thanks. They're like, you won't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1903.25,"endTime":1907.15,"body":"make exaltation, but you'll be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1907.15,"endTime":1909.64,"body":"happy as a ministering Angel."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1907.15,"endTime":1909.64,"body":"And I was thinking about that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1909.64,"endTime":1912.34,"body":"one day, and I was like, What"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1909.64,"endTime":1912.34,"body":"would life look like? If that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1912.34,"endTime":1915.25,"body":"true? Like, if I really do end"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1912.34,"endTime":1915.25,"body":"up being a ministering Angel?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1915.25,"endTime":1918.52,"body":"And I was like, I'm gonna love"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1915.25,"endTime":1918.52,"body":"it, because I'm gonna get to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1918.52,"endTime":1920.98,"body":"travel. And if like, people are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1918.52,"endTime":1920.98,"body":"really building their little"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1920.98,"endTime":1924.13,"body":"worlds, I'm gonna be like, like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1920.98,"endTime":1924.13,"body":"a design consultant for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1924.13,"endTime":1926.53,"body":"different worlds. And I come"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1924.13,"endTime":1926.53,"body":"over, I'm like, uh uh, no, this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1926.53,"endTime":1929.59,"body":"tree is all wrong, like you need"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1926.53,"endTime":1929.59,"body":"to move it over there,and this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1929.59,"endTime":1932.68,"body":"canyon needs to be moved. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1929.59,"endTime":1932.68,"body":"I'm just like, I don't know, as"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1932.68,"endTime":1935.32,"body":"I was thinking about it, it was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1932.68,"endTime":1935.32,"body":"kind of ridiculous. Just, you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1935.32,"endTime":1936.97,"body":"know, imagining this, but..."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1938.23,"endTime":1940.36,"body":"Lemonade out of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1938.23,"endTime":1940.36,"body":"bad theological lemons."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1940.0,"endTime":1942.94,"body":"Yeah, exactly. But I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1940.0,"endTime":1942.94,"body":"was like, You know what, no"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1942.94,"endTime":1946.36,"body":"matter what happens, I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1942.94,"endTime":1946.36,"body":"be me. And I'm gonna have fun."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1946.36,"endTime":1949.66,"body":"And I believe that God loves me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1946.36,"endTime":1949.66,"body":"and that I'm gonna be happy. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1949.66,"endTime":1952.09,"body":"if it's as an angel, that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1949.66,"endTime":1952.09,"body":"great. Because like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1952.12,"endTime":1956.56,"body":"want a wife. Like, like I would,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1952.12,"endTime":1956.56,"body":"if it has to come down between"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1956.56,"endTime":1962.2,"body":"like, forever wife companion"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1956.56,"endTime":1962.2,"body":"versus traveling consultant, I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1962.2,"endTime":1964.99,"body":"gonna go with traveling"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1962.2,"endTime":1964.99,"body":"consultant every single time."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1965.62,"endTime":1969.31,"body":"So, so yeah, there's this... I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1965.62,"endTime":1969.31,"body":"don't know... take it with a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1969.31,"endTime":1969.85,"body":"grain of salt."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1969.88,"endTime":1971.86,"body":"Yeah, and even this,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1969.88,"endTime":1971.86,"body":"Charlie is this truth that like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1971.89,"endTime":1973.87,"body":"God hasn't prepared a heaven for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1971.89,"endTime":1973.87,"body":"us that we're gonna be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1973.87,"endTime":1974.68,"body":"disappointed in."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1974.74,"endTime":1975.49,"body":"Exactly,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1975.52,"endTime":1978.4,"body":"That we're gonna be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1975.52,"endTime":1978.4,"body":"unhappy. And if it ends up that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1978.4,"endTime":1981.67,"body":"you and I are ministering"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1978.4,"endTime":1981.67,"body":"angels, I won't be a design"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1981.67,"endTime":1983.05,"body":"consultant cuz that'd be a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1981.67,"endTime":1983.05,"body":"disaster."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1983.08,"endTime":1986.47,"body":"He's not a design game."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1983.08,"endTime":1986.47,"body":"You can rake all the leaves and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1986.47,"endTime":1987.52,"body":"I'll take pictures."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1988.29,"endTime":1991.23,"body":"But I am basically a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1988.29,"endTime":1991.23,"body":"ministering angel now. It's a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1991.23,"endTime":1994.83,"body":"fine life. So yeah, it's a great"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1991.23,"endTime":1994.83,"body":"life. Yeah, Terryl, can I ask"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1994.83,"endTime":1996.09,"body":"you a very speculative question?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1997.44,"endTime":1998.4,"body":"Even more"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":1997.44,"endTime":1998.4,"body":"speculative?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1998.97,"endTime":1999.75,"body":"Really? Ooh."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2000.83,"endTime":2004.43,"body":"So in D \u0026 C 131. It says"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2000.83,"endTime":2004.43,"body":"that in the celestial kingdom,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2004.43,"endTime":2006.41,"body":"there are three heavens or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2004.43,"endTime":2006.41,"body":"degrees in order to obtain"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2006.41,"endTime":2008.9,"body":"highest, you need to be in the,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2006.41,"endTime":2008.9,"body":"you need to enter into the new"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2008.9,"endTime":2011.3,"body":"and everlasting covenant of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2008.9,"endTime":2011.3,"body":"marriage. I think it says \"this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2011.33,"endTime":2012.92,"body":"order of the priesthood,\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2011.33,"endTime":2012.92,"body":"meaning the new and everlasting"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2012.92,"endTime":2016.19,"body":"covenant of marriage. Why do you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2012.92,"endTime":2016.19,"body":"think there are three degrees in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2016.19,"endTime":2016.94,"body":"the celestial kingdom?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2016.96,"endTime":2018.88,"body":"Well, I don't"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2016.96,"endTime":2018.88,"body":"know. I mean, it's in some ways,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2018.88,"endTime":2022.3,"body":"it's kind of comical, that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2018.88,"endTime":2022.3,"body":"preface to Section 76 of the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2022.3,"endTime":2024.4,"body":"Doctrine and Covenants where"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2022.3,"endTime":2024.4,"body":"Joseph says, it just didn't make"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2024.4,"endTime":2027.52,"body":"sense that there were only two"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2024.4,"endTime":2027.52,"body":"divisions, right? Heaven and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2027.52,"endTime":2032.77,"body":"hell. So we'll have three!"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2027.52,"endTime":2032.77,"body":"That's any, it's not really an"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2032.77,"endTime":2035.56,"body":"improvement. And then we"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2032.77,"endTime":2035.56,"body":"subdivide one of the three into"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2035.56,"endTime":2039.13,"body":"three more. I don't know, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2035.56,"endTime":2039.13,"body":"think that what it's really"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2039.13,"endTime":2042.94,"body":"pointing toward is an infinitude"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2039.13,"endTime":2042.94,"body":"of degrees and stations and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2042.94,"endTime":2049.21,"body":"levels, all of which I believe"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2042.94,"endTime":2049.21,"body":"we progress through. Joseph"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2049.36,"endTime":2052.66,"body":"clearly taught, I think it's, I"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2049.36,"endTime":2052.66,"body":"think it's implicit in"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2052.66,"endTime":2057.01,"body":"section--correct me if I'm"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2052.66,"endTime":2057.01,"body":"wrong, it  137? In Section 76,"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2057.04,"endTime":2060.04,"body":"he gets, he gets this"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2057.04,"endTime":2060.04,"body":"explication of The Three Degrees"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2060.04,"endTime":2062.98,"body":"Of Glory. He's been so"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2060.04,"endTime":2062.98,"body":"distraught over the death of his"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2062.98,"endTime":2065.38,"body":"brother, Alvin. Where's Alvin"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2062.98,"endTime":2065.38,"body":"going to end up? He wasn't"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2065.38,"endTime":2068.5,"body":"baptized. And then he learns"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2065.38,"endTime":2068.5,"body":"from section 76, the good and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2068.5,"endTime":2071.2,"body":"honorable men who die without a"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2068.5,"endTime":2071.2,"body":"knowledge of Christ inherit the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2071.2,"endTime":2074.47,"body":"terrestrial kingdom. I believe"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2071.2,"endTime":2074.47,"body":"that gave Joseph Smith great"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2074.47,"endTime":2078.28,"body":"comfort his brother album would"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2074.47,"endTime":2078.28,"body":"be a terrestrial Angel. And then"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2078.28,"endTime":2081.73,"body":"would happens? But five or six"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2078.28,"endTime":2081.73,"body":"years later, he gets section 137"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2082.15,"endTime":2084.88,"body":"a vision of the celestial"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2082.15,"endTime":2084.88,"body":"kingdom and what's the language?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2084.91,"endTime":2089.8,"body":"Right? I was amazed. Why?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2084.91,"endTime":2089.8,"body":"Because he sees Alvin in the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2089.8,"endTime":2094.3,"body":"celestial kingdom. I can't read"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2089.8,"endTime":2094.3,"body":"that any other way than Joseph"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2094.3,"endTime":2098.32,"body":"has discovered that everything"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2094.3,"endTime":2098.32,"body":"is fluid. Yeah. And his brother"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2098.38,"endTime":2102.1,"body":"Hyrum was recorded as saying The"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2098.38,"endTime":2102.1,"body":"Degrees Of Glory are like the"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2102.1,"endTime":2105.82,"body":"moon, they wax and they wane."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2102.1,"endTime":2105.82,"body":"There's endless fluidity and"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2105.82,"endTime":2110.65,"body":"progress and movement. So I just"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2105.82,"endTime":2110.65,"body":"think it's an exciting prospect"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2110.65,"endTime":2115.45,"body":"that the gospel holds out that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2110.65,"endTime":2115.45,"body":"nobody is ever locked into one"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2115.45,"endTime":2117.52,"body":"position. One of my favorite"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2115.45,"endTime":2117.52,"body":"talks I've ever heard was that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2117.55,"endTime":2119.92,"body":"might have been the last sermon"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2117.55,"endTime":2119.92,"body":"that Elder David B. Haight gave"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2119.92,"endTime":2122.98,"body":"before he died, when he spoke to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2119.92,"endTime":2122.98,"body":"the parents, the church, and he"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2122.98,"endTime":2128.02,"body":"said, \"Please, never never never"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2122.98,"endTime":2128.02,"body":"lock the doors of your heart to"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2128.02,"endTime":2131.92,"body":"your children.\" Well, then we"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2128.02,"endTime":2131.92,"body":"can hardly believe in a God who"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2131.92,"endTime":2135.34,"body":"had ever locked the door of his"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2131.92,"endTime":2135.34,"body":"heart to any of us now or"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2135.43,"endTime":2136.3,"body":"hereafter."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2140.2,"body":"We talked, we were talking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2140.2,"body":"about section 137, I thought,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2140.26,"endTime":2145.27,"body":"how amazed we would be if we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2140.26,"endTime":2145.27,"body":"could see Heaven, who would be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2145.27,"endTime":2149.35,"body":"there. And you know, maybe we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2145.27,"endTime":2149.35,"body":"lock ourselves out and don't see"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2149.35,"endTime":2150.91,"body":"the possibilities that God has"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2149.35,"endTime":2150.91,"body":"for us."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2150.93,"endTime":2154.86,"body":"Yeah. That's so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2150.93,"endTime":2154.86,"body":"beautiful. And I believe that. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2154.86,"endTime":2159.21,"body":"love listening to you say that."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2154.86,"endTime":2159.21,"body":"One of my favorite themes of the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2159.21,"endTime":2162.69,"body":"gospel and of God is eternal"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2159.21,"endTime":2162.69,"body":"progression. And I think if we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2163.29,"endTime":2166.68,"body":"limit our view of eternal"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2163.29,"endTime":2166.68,"body":"progression... I think so often,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2166.68,"endTime":2170.28,"body":"we look at the plan of salvation"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2166.68,"endTime":2170.28,"body":"as linear, when really, we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2170.28,"endTime":2172.8,"body":"should be looking more"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2170.28,"endTime":2172.8,"body":"spherical. And I don't know if"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2172.8,"endTime":2175.38,"body":"that makes sense. But like, it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2172.8,"endTime":2175.38,"body":"makes sense in my mind that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2175.38,"endTime":2178.47,"body":"we're just looking at this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2175.38,"endTime":2178.47,"body":"flatline as if it's, oh, it was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2178.47,"endTime":2181.23,"body":"and it will be, but it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2178.47,"endTime":2181.23,"body":"encompasses so much more. It's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2181.23,"endTime":2185.97,"body":"so much grander and fuller than"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2181.23,"endTime":2185.97,"body":"that. So as we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2185.97,"endTime":2187.89,"body":"this, I'm thinking about the way"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2185.97,"endTime":2187.89,"body":"I used to teach the plan of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2187.89,"endTime":2192.39,"body":"salvation as a missionary and I,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2187.89,"endTime":2192.39,"body":"I got into this like kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2192.48,"endTime":2194.88,"body":"groove where I would just draw"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2192.48,"endTime":2194.88,"body":"it out. I get a piece of paper,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2194.88,"endTime":2197.79,"body":"and I love to draw and like I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2194.88,"endTime":2197.79,"body":"draw, like, cute little veil and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2197.79,"endTime":2200.85,"body":"the premortal life and, and go"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2197.79,"endTime":2200.85,"body":"through and draw The Three"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2200.85,"endTime":2204.81,"body":"Degrees Of Glory. Looking back"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2200.85,"endTime":2204.81,"body":"now, what I was drawing isn't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2204.81,"endTime":2208.17,"body":"actually like described in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2204.81,"endTime":2208.17,"body":"scriptures really. And like, the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2208.17,"endTime":2211.71,"body":"way we view the plan of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2208.17,"endTime":2211.71,"body":"salvation, is sometimes limited"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2211.71,"endTime":2214.44,"body":"by the way we view the plan of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2211.71,"endTime":2214.44,"body":"salvation. Right?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2214.5,"endTime":2216.72,"body":"Yeah, well, true to form,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2214.5,"endTime":2216.72,"body":"Charlie, the way you drew the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2216.72,"endTime":2218.64,"body":"plan of salvation, is much more"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2216.72,"endTime":2218.64,"body":"extra than me, I just drew lines"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2218.64,"endTime":2219.69,"body":"and circles on a chalkboard."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2221.25,"endTime":2223.8,"body":"But like, if we're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2221.25,"endTime":2223.8,"body":"viewing it through this cultural"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2223.8,"endTime":2228.03,"body":"lens, or this, like when you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2223.8,"endTime":2228.03,"body":"teach a kid that you teach about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2228.03,"endTime":2230.94,"body":"black and white, and good and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2228.03,"endTime":2230.94,"body":"bad, and yes and no. And like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2230.94,"endTime":2235.23,"body":"this idea of spectrum, is, is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2230.94,"endTime":2235.23,"body":"lost there. But it like plants,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2235.23,"endTime":2239.97,"body":"that seed of 1-2-3, to show that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2235.23,"endTime":2239.97,"body":"there's a spectrum like there,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2240.0,"endTime":2245.07,"body":"there is a range. And there's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2240.0,"endTime":2245.07,"body":"like, I guess, like Terryl, you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2245.07,"endTime":2246.57,"body":"were just saying fluidity there."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2246.0,"endTime":2248.64,"body":"You know, I think what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2246.0,"endTime":2248.64,"body":"you're saying is true. Like I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2248.64,"endTime":2252.0,"body":"remember, as I studied the plan"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2248.64,"endTime":2252.0,"body":"of salvation, as taught in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2252.0,"endTime":2255.12,"body":"Book of Mormon, you know, there"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2252.0,"endTime":2255.12,"body":"was no chapter where it started"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2255.12,"endTime":2259.35,"body":"with the pre-Earth life, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2255.12,"endTime":2259.35,"body":"then the veil of forgetfulness,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2259.35,"endTime":2262.32,"body":"and then mortal life. And you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2259.35,"endTime":2262.32,"body":"know, there's nothing that walks"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2262.32,"endTime":2265.5,"body":"you through all of those steps."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2262.32,"endTime":2265.5,"body":"But there were chapters about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2265.5,"endTime":2267.78,"body":"the plan of salvation that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2265.5,"endTime":2267.78,"body":"talked about agency, and the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2267.78,"endTime":2270.42,"body":"importance of agency. And then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2267.78,"endTime":2270.42,"body":"chapters that talked about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2270.42,"endTime":2273.42,"body":"redemption through Jesus Christ"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2270.42,"endTime":2273.42,"body":"and chapters that talks about,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2274.02,"endTime":2276.3,"body":"you know, faith, repentance,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2274.02,"endTime":2276.3,"body":"baptism, the gift of the Holy"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2276.3,"endTime":2279.6,"body":"Ghost and all those important"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2276.3,"endTime":2279.6,"body":"things. But the way that I drew"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2279.6,"endTime":2283.23,"body":"lines on a chalkboard in circles"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2279.6,"endTime":2283.23,"body":"like that, that's not spelled"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2283.23,"endTime":2286.02,"body":"out in there. I think that's,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2283.23,"endTime":2286.02,"body":"that's found in like chapter one"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2286.02,"endTime":2288.57,"body":"of the handbook. But in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2286.02,"endTime":2288.57,"body":"Scriptures, the plan of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2288.57,"endTime":2292.47,"body":"salvation is taught as you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2288.57,"endTime":2292.47,"body":"there's, there's, you know, this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2292.47,"endTime":2294.87,"body":"principle and this principle and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2292.47,"endTime":2294.87,"body":"this principle that to bring us"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2295.08,"endTime":2297.54,"body":"back to God. Terryl, can I quote"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2295.08,"endTime":2297.54,"body":"you?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2299.01,"endTime":2299.46,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2299.51,"endTime":2302.93,"body":"So, you gave a lecture"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2299.51,"endTime":2302.93,"body":"series at BYU last fall that I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2302.93,"endTime":2305.33,"body":"went to, and during the q\u0026a,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2302.93,"endTime":2305.33,"body":"someone asked you if you thought"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2305.33,"endTime":2308.51,"body":"that there was progression in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2305.33,"endTime":2308.51,"body":"the eternities, and and one of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2308.51,"endTime":2311.39,"body":"the things you said was, \"I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2308.51,"endTime":2311.39,"body":"believe in a God that gives"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2311.39,"endTime":2314.27,"body":"everyone who wants to progress,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2311.39,"endTime":2314.27,"body":"the chance to\" You said"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2314.27,"endTime":2315.74,"body":"something like that. You could"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2314.27,"endTime":2315.74,"body":"say it now, if you want to it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2315.74,"endTime":2318.62,"body":"better than that. But I just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2315.74,"endTime":2318.62,"body":"remember being so struck by"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2318.62,"endTime":2320.84,"body":"that, because that is true. Like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2318.62,"endTime":2320.84,"body":"that is the God I believe in,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2320.84,"endTime":2323.81,"body":"the God who gives everyone who"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2320.84,"endTime":2323.81,"body":"wants to progress, the chance to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2323.81,"endTime":2326.54,"body":"do so. And as I thought about my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2323.81,"endTime":2326.54,"body":"own life, I thought, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2326.54,"endTime":2330.05,"body":"right now, I really don't feel"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2326.54,"endTime":2330.05,"body":"called to be in, to be married."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2330.05,"endTime":2332.75,"body":"I don't feel that. And yet I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2330.05,"endTime":2332.75,"body":"want to progress and I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2332.75,"endTime":2335.24,"body":"be better. And God opens up"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2332.75,"endTime":2335.24,"body":"these opportunities for me to do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2335.24,"endTime":2337.52,"body":"that within the spirit he has"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2335.24,"endTime":2337.52,"body":"placed me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2337.82,"endTime":2340.52,"body":"Yeah, and I think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2337.82,"endTime":2340.52,"body":"adding to that it'll, it looks"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2340.52,"endTime":2343.49,"body":"different in different stages of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2340.52,"endTime":2343.49,"body":"life and for different people."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2343.82,"endTime":2344.33,"body":"And so..."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2344.99,"endTime":2347.24,"body":"The beauty of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2344.99,"endTime":2347.24,"body":"your testimony is that you have"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2347.36,"endTime":2352.28,"body":"enough reliance on past"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2347.36,"endTime":2352.28,"body":"experience, to anticipate that"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2352.28,"endTime":2354.05,"body":"is a pattern for your own"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2352.28,"endTime":2354.05,"body":"future."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2354.29,"endTime":2355.91,"body":"Well, and I just want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2354.29,"endTime":2355.91,"body":"say, you know, Terryl, thank you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2355.91,"endTime":2358.49,"body":"so much for for sharing your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2355.91,"endTime":2358.49,"body":"time with us. And for your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2358.49,"endTime":2363.35,"body":"expertise. You used a number of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2358.49,"endTime":2363.35,"body":"words I've never heard of. Like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2363.35,"endTime":2365.27,"body":"the word for the study of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2363.35,"endTime":2365.27,"body":"salvation, I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2365.36,"endTime":2365.96,"body":"what was that word?"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2365.99,"endTime":2367.1,"body":"Soteriology."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2367.0,"endTime":2368.17,"body":"Yes, I've never heard of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2367.0,"endTime":2368.17,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2368.17,"endTime":2369.88,"body":"Pull out a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2368.17,"endTime":2369.88,"body":"dictionary.Maybe in the show"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2369.88,"endTime":2373.18,"body":"notes. I'll just add like a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2369.88,"endTime":2373.18,"body":"glossary, a terminology section."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2373.0,"endTime":2374.62,"body":"I actually really wish that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2373.0,"endTime":2374.62,"body":"would have used the word"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2374.65,"endTime":2377.2,"body":"\"esoteric.\" I looked it up and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2374.65,"endTime":2377.2,"body":"it was like, \"understood only by"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2377.2,"endTime":2383.02,"body":"a few.\" I was like, well, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2377.2,"endTime":2383.02,"body":"ironic. So anyway, but Terryl,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2384.94,"body":"thank you so much for your time"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2383.02,"endTime":2384.94,"body":"and for your expertise. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2384.97,"endTime":2387.64,"body":"we've talked a lot, we've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2384.97,"endTime":2387.64,"body":"speculated a lot. We've talked"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2387.64,"endTime":2390.46,"body":"about things we know and things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2387.64,"endTime":2390.46,"body":"that you know, we don't know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2390.46,"endTime":2393.94,"body":"and, and, you know, none of us"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2390.46,"endTime":2393.94,"body":"have any idea what God has in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2393.94,"endTime":2395.92,"body":"store for us. And I think it'd"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2393.94,"endTime":2395.92,"body":"be inappropriate for us to say"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2395.92,"endTime":2398.62,"body":"what God will do. I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2395.92,"endTime":2398.62,"body":"also equally inappropriate to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2398.62,"endTime":2404.11,"body":"say what God won't do. And and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2398.62,"endTime":2404.11,"body":"to trust that, that that, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2404.11,"endTime":2406.39,"body":"know, we're not the experts on"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2404.11,"endTime":2406.39,"body":"this God is and as we turned to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2406.39,"endTime":2407.41,"body":"him, he'll teach us."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2407.53,"endTime":2410.65,"body":"I agree. And Nephi, in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2407.53,"endTime":2410.65,"body":"the Book of Mormon right towards"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2410.65,"endTime":2413.35,"body":"the beginning says, You know, \"I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2410.65,"endTime":2413.35,"body":"don't know everything but I do"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2413.35,"endTime":2416.86,"body":"know that God loves his"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2413.35,"endTime":2416.86,"body":"children.\" And that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2416.86,"endTime":2417.73,"body":"what we go off of."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2418.63,"endTime":2421.24,"body":"Yeah, I'm excited to see"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2418.63,"endTime":2421.24,"body":"what God reveals through through"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2421.27,"endTime":2424.78,"body":"the prophets and apostles in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2421.27,"endTime":2424.78,"body":"generations to come."},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2425.35,"endTime":2428.74,"body":"I agree, I think"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2425.35,"endTime":2428.74,"body":"the most profound realization of"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2428.74,"endTime":2433.36,"body":"Joseph Smith was that no matter"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2428.74,"endTime":2433.36,"body":"how great we think God's love"},{"speaker":"Terryl Givens","startTime":2433.36,"endTime":2435.4,"body":"is, we've underestimated."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2436.51,"endTime":2438.64,"body":"Thank you for joining us"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2436.51,"endTime":2438.64,"body":"today. If you have enjoyed this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2438.64,"endTime":2441.13,"body":"or other episodes, please"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2438.64,"endTime":2441.13,"body":"consider leaving us a podcast"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2441.13,"endTime":2443.62,"body":"review. And as always, please"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2441.13,"endTime":2443.62,"body":"remember that we do not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2443.62,"endTime":2446.11,"body":"represent the Church of Jesus"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2443.62,"endTime":2446.11,"body":"Christ of Latter-day Saints or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2446.11,"endTime":2448.99,"body":"Brigham Young University. We're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2446.11,"endTime":2448.99,"body":"not trying to be prescriptive or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2448.99,"endTime":2450.7,"body":"tell anyone what to think or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2448.99,"endTime":2450.7,"body":"what to do."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2451.2,"endTime":2452.64,"body":"You heard three"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2451.2,"endTime":2452.64,"body":"perspectives, and there are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2452.64,"endTime":2455.61,"body":"many, many more. We encourage"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2452.64,"endTime":2455.61,"body":"you to listen to other voices"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2455.61,"endTime":2458.22,"body":"and hear a wide variety of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2455.61,"endTime":2458.22,"body":"experiences. If you would like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2458.22,"endTime":2461.04,"body":"to submit a question or share a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2458.22,"endTime":2461.04,"body":"comment about today's episode,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2461.1,"endTime":2463.65,"body":"you can email us at"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2461.1,"endTime":2463.65,"body":"questionsfromthecloset@gmail.com."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2464.43,"endTime":2465.24,"body":"Until next time..."}]}