{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":3.09,"endTime":5.4,"body":"Welcome to Questions"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":3.09,"endTime":5.4,"body":"from the Closet. I'm Charlie"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":5.4,"endTime":5.79,"body":"Bird."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":5.91,"endTime":8.52,"body":"And I'm Ben Schilaty. Each"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":5.91,"endTime":8.52,"body":"episode we discuss a question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.52,"endTime":11.01,"body":"that we commonly get asked as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":8.52,"endTime":11.01,"body":"LGBTQ Latter-day Saints."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":11.16,"endTime":13.29,"body":"We're not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":11.16,"endTime":13.29,"body":"answer this question or come to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":13.29,"endTime":16.26,"body":"a consensus but simply sharing"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":13.29,"endTime":16.26,"body":"our perspectives. Today's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.26,"endTime":18.87,"body":"question is, will God change my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":16.26,"endTime":18.87,"body":"orientation?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":19.38,"endTime":21.03,"body":"Charlie and I are not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":19.38,"endTime":21.03,"body":"terribly diverse. And we share"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":21.03,"endTime":23.46,"body":"many opinions and life"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":21.03,"endTime":23.46,"body":"experiences. For example, we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":23.46,"endTime":27.03,"body":"both love going to orientations."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":23.46,"endTime":27.03,"body":"However, there are some pretty"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":27.03,"endTime":27.84,"body":"big differences."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":27.93,"endTime":30.99,"body":"For example, I had an"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":27.93,"endTime":30.99,"body":"orientation today and Ben did"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":30.99,"endTime":31.17,"body":"not."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":31.5,"endTime":32.91,"body":"Which is sad, because I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":31.5,"endTime":32.91,"body":"really do love going to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":32.91,"endTime":33.54,"body":"orientations."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":33.57,"endTime":35.7,"body":"I do too. There's so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":33.57,"endTime":35.7,"body":"many things to learn. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":35.7,"endTime":38.37,"body":"especially if I'm like, excited"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":35.7,"endTime":38.37,"body":"to do something, and then I get"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":38.37,"endTime":41.31,"body":"there and I'm like, \"Oh, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":38.37,"endTime":41.31,"body":"teach me everything. Orient me.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":41.72,"endTime":43.52,"body":"It also like you get paid,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":41.72,"endTime":43.52,"body":"but you don't have to do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":43.52,"endTime":47.39,"body":"anything. And they like, give"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":43.52,"endTime":47.39,"body":"you treats often. Like, here's a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.39,"endTime":49.52,"body":"pamphlet and a candy bar that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":47.39,"endTime":49.52,"body":"goes with it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":49.66,"endTime":51.85,"body":"I did not get paid for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":49.66,"endTime":51.85,"body":"today's orientation."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":51.94,"endTime":52.39,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":52.78,"endTime":53.41,"body":"It was free."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":53.44,"endTime":54.04,"body":"How was it?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":54.31,"endTime":56.32,"body":"It was pretty good. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":54.31,"endTime":56.32,"body":"liked it. It's for my internship"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":56.32,"endTime":57.58,"body":"for my grad program. So..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":58.27,"endTime":61.33,"body":"Like, my dream orientation"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":58.27,"endTime":61.33,"body":"would be like to get hired at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":61.33,"endTime":64.09,"body":"Disney World and have like a 3"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":61.33,"endTime":64.09,"body":"day orientation. It's actually"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":64.09,"endTime":64.96,"body":"called Disney U."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":66.07,"endTime":70.06,"body":"Alright? We're gonna"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":66.07,"endTime":70.06,"body":"move on quick. Cuz we'll get"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":70.06,"endTime":72.76,"body":"distracted real quick. We get"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":70.06,"endTime":72.76,"body":"Ben talking about Disney."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":72.79,"endTime":75.34,"body":"Oh my gosh. Anyway. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":72.79,"endTime":75.34,"body":"so we would like to provide a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":75.34,"endTime":77.59,"body":"variety of voices and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":75.34,"endTime":77.59,"body":"perspectives. But today, we're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":77.59,"endTime":78.46,"body":"joined by nobody."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":78.79,"endTime":80.65,"body":"And today we're talking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":78.79,"endTime":80.65,"body":"about a pretty sensitive topic."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":80.65,"endTime":83.08,"body":"And when we do that, sometimes"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":80.65,"endTime":83.08,"body":"we feel like it's better for it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":83.08,"endTime":86.62,"body":"just to be us. And just so if"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":83.08,"endTime":86.62,"body":"anyone takes the heat it can be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":86.62,"endTime":86.68,"body":"us."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":87.94,"endTime":90.34,"body":"Yeah, also, I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":87.94,"endTime":90.34,"body":"about, like, the things I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":90.34,"endTime":94.06,"body":"going to say, and how scary the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":90.34,"endTime":94.06,"body":"things I say would have been to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":94.06,"endTime":95.5,"body":"like, 22 year old me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":95.53,"endTime":96.04,"body":"Yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":96.04,"endTime":97.99,"body":"And I just want to, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":96.04,"endTime":97.99,"body":"know, say things like a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":98.02,"endTime":101.5,"body":"sensitive way so like, 22 year"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":98.02,"endTime":101.5,"body":"old Ben wouldn't be freaked out."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":101.58,"endTime":104.37,"body":"Yeah. As far as"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":101.58,"endTime":104.37,"body":"credibility is concerned, we are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":104.37,"endTime":106.86,"body":"not theologians. We're not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":104.37,"endTime":106.86,"body":"religious or spiritual leaders."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":107.1,"endTime":111.84,"body":"But we are same sex attracted."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":107.1,"endTime":111.84,"body":"And we both spent a lot of time"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":111.84,"endTime":114.63,"body":"and effort seeking for God to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":111.84,"endTime":114.63,"body":"change our sexual orientations."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":114.72,"endTime":117.99,"body":"So it's maybe a little bit"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":114.72,"endTime":117.99,"body":"tricky. We're not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":117.99,"endTime":120.3,"body":"speak for God, but we're just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":117.99,"endTime":120.3,"body":"gonna share some of our past"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":120.3,"endTime":123.6,"body":"experiences that have led us to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":120.3,"endTime":123.6,"body":"healthier mental and emotional"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":123.6,"endTime":124.17,"body":"spaces."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":124.6,"endTime":127.09,"body":"Definitely. So as I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":124.6,"endTime":127.09,"body":"like, thinking out what I wanted"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":127.09,"endTime":130.15,"body":"to say today, I heard a quote"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":127.09,"endTime":130.15,"body":"recently, that was \"A problem"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":130.15,"endTime":135.16,"body":"well defined is a problem half"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":130.15,"endTime":135.16,"body":"solved.\" And for me, I think the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":135.16,"endTime":140.8,"body":"main problem with me being gay,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":135.16,"endTime":140.8,"body":"and you know, all the issues of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":140.8,"endTime":144.91,"body":"like, shame and depression, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":140.8,"endTime":144.91,"body":"like, wishing I was dead that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":144.94,"endTime":147.58,"body":"came from that was this question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":144.94,"endTime":147.58,"body":"like, Will God change"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":147.58,"endTime":150.1,"body":"orientation? So if I were to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":147.58,"endTime":150.1,"body":"find like, the problem that led"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":150.1,"endTime":154.27,"body":"to like most of my issues, it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":150.1,"endTime":154.27,"body":"was, I believed that God was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":154.27,"endTime":155.26,"body":"going to make me straight."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":155.35,"endTime":157.87,"body":"Yeah. Or at least I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":155.35,"endTime":157.87,"body":"believed that I had to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":157.87,"endTime":159.73,"body":"straight in order to have a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":157.87,"endTime":159.73,"body":"place with God."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":159.76,"endTime":161.02,"body":"Yes, exactly."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":161.0,"endTime":164.15,"body":"Like in order to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":161.0,"endTime":164.15,"body":"worthy, or good enough or"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":164.15,"endTime":166.43,"body":"righteous enough that there's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":164.15,"endTime":166.43,"body":"something about me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":166.46,"endTime":170.75,"body":"fundamentally, that needed to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":166.46,"endTime":170.75,"body":"changed. And I think part of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":170.75,"endTime":173.54,"body":"that was that I had this belief"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":170.75,"endTime":173.54,"body":"that, like, all things are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":173.54,"endTime":178.37,"body":"possible through Christ. And so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":173.54,"endTime":178.37,"body":"like viewing it as some sort of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":178.37,"endTime":182.9,"body":"like, spiritual or life defect,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":178.37,"endTime":182.9,"body":"it just seems so obvious to me,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":183.26,"endTime":186.71,"body":"that God would change my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":183.26,"endTime":186.71,"body":"orientation, because that is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":186.71,"endTime":190.28,"body":"what God does. Like he fixes"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":186.71,"endTime":190.28,"body":"spiritual defects."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":190.0,"endTime":193.48,"body":"Yeah. And like, and like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":190.0,"endTime":193.48,"body":"going on with that, like, 1"},{"speaker":"Nephi 3","startTime":193.48,"endTime":197.14,"body":"7 that says, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nephi 3","startTime":193.48,"endTime":197.14,"body":"God will prepare a way for us to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":196.25,"endTime":198.77,"body":"And I remember, my dad has"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":196.25,"endTime":198.77,"body":"apologized for this, like dozens"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":197.23,"endTime":199.36,"body":"live His commandments. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":197.23,"endTime":199.36,"body":"thought, \"Well, God has"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":198.77,"endTime":201.68,"body":"of times, like dozens of times,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":198.77,"endTime":201.68,"body":"so don't give hate to my dad."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":199.36,"endTime":201.91,"body":"commanded me to be married to a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":199.36,"endTime":201.91,"body":"woman, and therefore he will"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":201.91,"endTime":204.58,"body":"provide the way for that. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":201.91,"endTime":204.58,"body":"that includes changing my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":202.16,"endTime":205.07,"body":"But he really heavily encouraged"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":202.16,"endTime":205.07,"body":"me to go to therapy, like two"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":204.58,"endTime":205.33,"body":"orientation.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":205.0,"endTime":213.46,"body":"And, and so I went, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":205.0,"endTime":213.46,"body":"because I really believe that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":205.07,"endTime":208.16,"body":"months after I came out to my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":205.07,"endTime":208.16,"body":"parents. And I told him, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":205.36,"endTime":205.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":205.36,"endTime":205.72,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":208.16,"endTime":210.74,"body":"didn't need to go to therapy to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":208.16,"endTime":210.74,"body":"change my orientation. I said,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":210.92,"endTime":213.59,"body":"God could fix me if you wanted"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":210.92,"endTime":213.59,"body":"to. And my dad has really bad"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":213.59,"endTime":216.95,"body":"eyesight. And he said, \"Ben God"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":213.59,"endTime":216.95,"body":"could fix my eyesight but"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":214.15,"endTime":240.64,"body":"like, and like the question for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":214.15,"endTime":240.64,"body":"me wasn't, like, like, \"Can God"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":216.95,"endTime":219.56,"body":"nstead, he gave me glasses\","},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":216.95,"endTime":219.56,"body":"which is actually a really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":219.56,"endTime":222.59,"body":"lovely metaphor. So you're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":219.56,"endTime":222.59,"body":"saying, you know, maybe God is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":222.59,"endTime":225.74,"body":"going to change your orient"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":222.59,"endTime":225.74,"body":"tion through therapy."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":240.64,"endTime":243.01,"body":"change orientation?\" It was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":240.64,"endTime":243.01,"body":"like, \"When is he going to do"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":243.01,"endTime":243.28,"body":"it?\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":244.06,"endTime":245.59,"body":"And did you go to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":244.06,"endTime":245.59,"body":"therapy?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":245.62,"endTime":246.43,"body":"I did. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":246.52,"endTime":248.23,"body":"What, was it like a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":246.52,"endTime":248.23,"body":"conversion therapist?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":248.26,"endTime":250.09,"body":"You should listen to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":248.26,"endTime":250.09,"body":"\"Should I go to therapy?\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":250.09,"endTime":250.81,"body":"Because I talked about it there."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":250.81,"endTime":253.9,"body":"I know, but talk about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":250.81,"endTime":253.9,"body":"it again. Give us some juice."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":253.96,"endTime":254.98,"body":"Give us the details."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":254.98,"endTime":258.34,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. So it was a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":254.98,"endTime":258.34,"body":"therapist at BYU at the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":258.34,"endTime":260.35,"body":"counseling center there and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":258.34,"endTime":260.35,"body":"like, you had to fill out like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":260.35,"endTime":263.41,"body":"all these forms, like, like a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":260.35,"endTime":263.41,"body":"stack of forms. And now it's all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":263.41,"endTime":264.13,"body":"just electronic."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":264.49,"endTime":266.53,"body":"Like, so this was like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":264.49,"endTime":266.53,"body":"17 years ago."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":266.59,"endTime":267.97,"body":"This was in 2008."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":267.97,"endTime":268.3,"body":"Thirteen years ago."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":268.51,"endTime":270.76,"body":"This was January, this was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":268.51,"endTime":270.76,"body":"January 2008."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":270.76,"endTime":271.06,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":271.33,"endTime":274.27,"body":"And I had to answer all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":271.33,"endTime":274.27,"body":"these questions about like, what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":274.27,"endTime":276.22,"body":"was going on my life and then at"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":274.27,"endTime":276.22,"body":"the end, there was like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":276.28,"endTime":278.35,"body":"questions for additional"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":276.28,"endTime":278.35,"body":"comment. I said, I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":278.35,"endTime":280.39,"body":"change the orientation. Like I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":278.35,"endTime":280.39,"body":"wrote something like that. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":280.39,"endTime":282.91,"body":"so I got into the therapy room,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":280.39,"endTime":282.91,"body":"like the therapist, like ignored"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":282.91,"endTime":285.04,"body":"all the papers I had like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":282.91,"endTime":285.04,"body":"filled out like these dozens of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":285.04,"endTime":287.74,"body":"questionnaires and, and then he"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":285.04,"endTime":287.74,"body":"like looked at the paper where"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":287.74,"endTime":289.99,"body":"I'd like written that I wanted"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":287.74,"endTime":289.99,"body":"to change my orientation. And he"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":289.99,"endTime":291.97,"body":"just like set the paper down"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":289.99,"endTime":291.97,"body":"nonchalantly and said, \"Well,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":291.97,"endTime":297.07,"body":"this is easy to fix.\" And I went"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":291.97,"endTime":297.07,"body":"twice. And he, he told me how to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":297.07,"endTime":298.93,"body":"change my orientation."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":297.07,"endTime":298.93,"body":"Basically, what he said was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":299.08,"endTime":301.39,"body":"every time I got aroused I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":299.08,"endTime":301.39,"body":"just supposed to think of a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":301.39,"endTime":304.33,"body":"woman. And he walked me through"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":301.39,"endTime":304.33,"body":"all the beautiful parts of a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":304.33,"endTime":306.7,"body":"woman's body and told me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":304.33,"endTime":306.7,"body":"whenever I got around to just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":306.7,"endTime":309.34,"body":"think of those parts of a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":306.7,"endTime":309.34,"body":"woman's body, and that would"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":309.34,"endTime":313.09,"body":"change my orientation. And then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":309.34,"endTime":313.09,"body":"I, I felt so uncomfortable that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":313.09,"endTime":315.31,"body":"I made a follow up appointment,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":313.09,"endTime":315.31,"body":"because I didn't know how to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":315.31,"endTime":318.34,"body":"tell him that I couldn't go"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":315.31,"endTime":318.34,"body":"back. And then I left and called"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":318.34,"endTime":320.98,"body":"later and like, told the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":318.34,"endTime":320.98,"body":"secretary to cancel my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":320.98,"endTime":322.36,"body":"appointment. She said, \"When do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":320.98,"endTime":322.36,"body":"you want to reschedule?\" I said,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":322.39,"endTime":324.49,"body":"\"Well, I don't know.\" And then I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":322.39,"endTime":324.49,"body":"just never reschedules. So I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":324.49,"endTime":325.09,"body":"just went twice."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":325.12,"endTime":326.38,"body":"You ghosted, your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":325.12,"endTime":326.38,"body":"therapist."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":326.38,"endTime":328.36,"body":"I did ghost my therapist,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":326.38,"endTime":328.36,"body":"which actually happens quite a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":328.36,"endTime":328.63,"body":"bit."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":328.93,"endTime":331.36,"body":"Well, I'm glad you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":328.93,"endTime":331.36,"body":"ghosted that therapist. Just a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":331.36,"endTime":335.74,"body":"quick plug for BYU Psychological"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":331.36,"endTime":335.74,"body":"Services. It is not really like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":335.74,"endTime":339.46,"body":"that anymore. I actually went"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":335.74,"endTime":339.46,"body":"there for my orientation as well"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":339.46,"endTime":342.19,"body":"and had a very, like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":339.46,"endTime":342.19,"body":"orientation affirming, faith"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":342.19,"endTime":345.01,"body":"affirming therapist that was not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":342.19,"endTime":345.01,"body":"like that at all. I'm sorry you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":345.01,"endTime":345.79,"body":"had that experience."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":345.79,"endTime":347.83,"body":"Yeah, same with me when I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":345.79,"endTime":347.83,"body":"went like three years ago. So"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":347.83,"endTime":349.63,"body":"yeah, I mean, the person I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":347.83,"endTime":349.63,"body":"talked to was like, old back"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":349.63,"endTime":350.86,"body":"then. I mean, he's long gone."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":351.07,"endTime":353.8,"body":"Well, the thing is,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":351.07,"endTime":353.8,"body":"like, I felt gross when you were"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":353.8,"endTime":357.64,"body":"saying that. I just felt gross,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":353.8,"endTime":357.64,"body":"because it is just kind of like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":357.67,"endTime":360.37,"body":"not healthy. You know, it's,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":357.67,"endTime":360.37,"body":"it's based on this defective"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":360.37,"endTime":362.62,"body":"idea. It's like, there's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":360.37,"endTime":362.62,"body":"something wrong with you that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":362.62,"endTime":363.55,"body":"needs to be fixed."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":363.88,"endTime":366.25,"body":"Yeah, Charlie sorry to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":363.88,"endTime":366.25,"body":"interrupt, but like, I think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":366.25,"endTime":369.58,"body":"that's like the root of like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":366.25,"endTime":369.58,"body":"the problem for me, like being"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":369.61,"endTime":372.88,"body":"like, my orientation was this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":369.61,"endTime":372.88,"body":"defect that I had to fix. And so"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":372.88,"endTime":374.74,"body":"this question like, \"Will God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":372.88,"endTime":374.74,"body":"change my orientation?\" like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":374.74,"endTime":377.08,"body":"for me, it was rooted in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":374.74,"endTime":377.08,"body":"fact that like, I was broken,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":377.26,"endTime":378.91,"body":"and this part of me had to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":377.26,"endTime":378.91,"body":"fixed"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":378.94,"endTime":380.74,"body":"Well, and that even"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":378.94,"endTime":380.74,"body":"goes into the way we talk about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":380.74,"endTime":384.01,"body":"it. And like the vernacular, in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":380.74,"endTime":384.01,"body":"this religious space is very"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":384.01,"endTime":386.98,"body":"focused on like struggle, like a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":384.01,"endTime":386.98,"body":"struggle with same sex"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":386.98,"endTime":389.68,"body":"attraction or a temporary"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":386.98,"endTime":389.68,"body":"condition or something that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":389.68,"endTime":393.19,"body":"you're working through. And that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":389.68,"endTime":393.19,"body":"paints it in this light of this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":393.19,"endTime":396.55,"body":"is something that needs to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":393.19,"endTime":396.55,"body":"change, and also gives the hope"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":396.55,"endTime":400.87,"body":"that it will, and like plants a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":396.55,"endTime":400.87,"body":"spiritual hope, that God will"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":400.87,"endTime":403.27,"body":"change it because it's wrong,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":400.87,"endTime":403.27,"body":"you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":403.33,"endTime":406.48,"body":"Yeah. So when I was like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":403.33,"endTime":406.48,"body":"25, I was like, in a good place"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":406.48,"endTime":408.94,"body":"emotionally. And I decided to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":406.48,"endTime":408.94,"body":"write a book about being gay. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":408.94,"endTime":411.16,"body":"wouldn't have said gay back"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":408.94,"endTime":411.16,"body":"then. And I only wrote one page"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":411.16,"endTime":414.07,"body":"because I was like, 25 and what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":411.16,"endTime":414.07,"body":"did I know, but the first page I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":414.07,"endTime":417.22,"body":"made an analogy about how much I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":414.07,"endTime":417.22,"body":"love Cinnabons. And I felt like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":417.22,"endTime":420.64,"body":"for my entire life, I just was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":417.22,"endTime":420.64,"body":"gonna get carrots. And like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":420.64,"endTime":423.34,"body":"that's how I that's how I viewed"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":420.64,"endTime":423.34,"body":"things like, like, I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":423.37,"endTime":425.86,"body":"live this life where I can have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":423.37,"endTime":425.86,"body":"a Cinnabon, but instead, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":425.86,"endTime":427.51,"body":"only life I can live is this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":425.86,"endTime":427.51,"body":"life, or I just get to eat"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":427.51,"endTime":429.43,"body":"carrots all the time. I just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":427.51,"endTime":429.43,"body":"felt like I was never going to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":429.43,"endTime":430.21,"body":"enjoy life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":429.78,"endTime":433.53,"body":"Carrots are women? In"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":429.78,"endTime":433.53,"body":"our analogy?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":434.02,"endTime":434.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":436.12,"endTime":437.29,"body":"I love carrots."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":438.37,"endTime":441.85,"body":"Well, I love Cinnabon. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":438.37,"endTime":441.85,"body":"eat carrots, because they're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":441.85,"endTime":443.8,"body":"good for me. Yeah, I'd rather"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":441.85,"endTime":443.8,"body":"eat a Cinnabon"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":443.8,"endTime":446.17,"body":"Anyway. Yeah, that's,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":443.8,"endTime":446.17,"body":"that's sad. That's..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":446.26,"endTime":448.81,"body":"Yeah, well, so the reason I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":446.26,"endTime":448.81,"body":"bring that up is like, I just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":448.81,"endTime":451.81,"body":"kind of felt like I was doomed"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":448.81,"endTime":451.81,"body":"to a life of like, lesser"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":451.81,"endTime":452.56,"body":"happiness."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":452.59,"endTime":453.16,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":453.19,"endTime":455.98,"body":"And it just like, wasn't a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":453.19,"endTime":455.98,"body":"way that I was going to live."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":455.98,"endTime":458.53,"body":"Like, like, it was like, I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":455.98,"endTime":458.53,"body":"gonna get a, like, the highest"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":458.53,"endTime":460.9,"body":"grade I could get in life, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":458.53,"endTime":460.9,"body":"happiness wise was like a C+."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":461.89,"endTime":464.53,"body":"Like, I was going to pass the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":461.89,"endTime":464.53,"body":"test. But I was like, gonna,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":464.56,"endTime":466.78,"body":"like barely pass, because I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":464.56,"endTime":466.78,"body":"like, gonna barely make it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":466.78,"endTime":468.76,"body":"through. But I wasn't going to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":466.78,"endTime":468.76,"body":"be happy because of this problem"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":468.76,"endTime":469.18,"body":"I had."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":469.21,"endTime":472.66,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, I remember,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":469.21,"endTime":472.66,"body":"I never went to like a real"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":472.66,"endTime":476.08,"body":"conversion therapist. But I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":472.66,"endTime":476.08,"body":"would like look at pamphlets"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":476.08,"endTime":479.32,"body":"online in Google and like, did a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":476.08,"endTime":479.32,"body":"lot of like psychological"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":479.32,"endTime":482.89,"body":"research about how to change my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":479.32,"endTime":482.89,"body":"own orientation. And I would"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":482.89,"endTime":486.94,"body":"like practice conversion therapy"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":482.89,"endTime":486.94,"body":"on myself behind closed doors."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":487.33,"endTime":492.49,"body":"And it was like, not good. It"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":487.33,"endTime":492.49,"body":"was, it was not healthy. It"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":492.52,"endTime":498.28,"body":"never made me feel good. I felt"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":492.52,"endTime":498.28,"body":"very on edge and disappointed"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":498.28,"endTime":500.44,"body":"all the time. I was always"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":498.28,"endTime":500.44,"body":"disappointed in myself because"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":500.44,"endTime":502.96,"body":"it never worked. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":503.08,"endTime":503.5,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":503.56,"endTime":505.24,"body":"I guess in this we're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":503.56,"endTime":505.24,"body":"not really talking about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":505.24,"endTime":507.31,"body":"conversion therapy, though. It's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":505.24,"endTime":507.31,"body":"more this idea of like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":507.61,"endTime":511.03,"body":"spiritually God fixing you with"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":507.61,"endTime":511.03,"body":"the atonement."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":511.51,"endTime":514.51,"body":"Yeah. And, and it really,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":511.51,"endTime":514.51,"body":"for me, like came down to this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":514.51,"endTime":516.28,"body":"thing. Like, I felt like there's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":514.51,"endTime":516.28,"body":"something that was broken and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":516.28,"endTime":518.86,"body":"wrong with me, they needed to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":516.28,"endTime":518.86,"body":"fixed. And I remember having"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":518.86,"endTime":521.92,"body":"this, this epiphany one day"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":518.86,"endTime":521.92,"body":"where I was like, God answers my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":521.92,"endTime":524.86,"body":"prayers in like miraculous ways."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":521.92,"endTime":524.86,"body":"Like, I don't know what other"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":524.86,"endTime":527.44,"body":"people's experiences are like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":524.86,"endTime":527.44,"body":"but I'll like pray for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":527.44,"endTime":530.05,"body":"something. And like, God answers"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":527.44,"endTime":530.05,"body":"my prayers, like in really"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":530.05,"endTime":532.51,"body":"miraculous ways. And just like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":530.05,"endTime":532.51,"body":"one example, I was when I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":532.51,"endTime":535.27,"body":"working in the Provo temple, I'd"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":532.51,"endTime":535.27,"body":"like I was having trouble making"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":535.27,"endTime":537.07,"body":"friends on my shift. And I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":535.27,"endTime":537.07,"body":"just like feeling kind of lonely"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":537.07,"endTime":538.84,"body":"there because like, I'll return"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":537.07,"endTime":538.84,"body":"like, recently returned"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":538.84,"endTime":541.48,"body":"missionaries, and like all old"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":538.84,"endTime":541.48,"body":"men, and it was like me, who was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":541.48,"endTime":544.48,"body":"like, 33 and like, didn't have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":541.48,"endTime":544.48,"body":"peers. Yeah. And so one day, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":544.48,"endTime":545.95,"body":"was like, walking to the temple"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":544.48,"endTime":545.95,"body":"and I'm like, \"God, I'm just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":545.95,"endTime":548.38,"body":"kind of lonely at the temple can"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":545.95,"endTime":548.38,"body":"you help me make a friend?\" And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":548.38,"endTime":551.44,"body":"so I'm like changing like right"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":548.38,"endTime":551.44,"body":"after get in there. And the, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":551.44,"endTime":554.11,"body":"guy in the changing booth next"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":551.44,"endTime":554.11,"body":"to me is like, \"Hey, what was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":554.11,"endTime":556.15,"body":"your name again?\" I said, \"My"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":554.11,"endTime":556.15,"body":"name is Ben.\" And we started"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":556.15,"endTime":558.85,"body":"talking like, you should come"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":556.15,"endTime":558.85,"body":"over for dinner sometime. Like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":558.85,"endTime":560.56,"body":"my family would love to get to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":558.85,"endTime":560.56,"body":"know you. I was like, \"Oh my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":560.56,"endTime":562.36,"body":"gosh, like I just said this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":560.56,"endTime":562.36,"body":"prayer like five minutes ago."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":562.36,"endTime":565.36,"body":"Now God's like, already given me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":562.36,"endTime":565.36,"body":"a friend.\" So I have, I have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":565.36,"endTime":566.62,"body":"those kinds of experiences all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":565.36,"endTime":566.62,"body":"the time."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":566.7,"endTime":569.31,"body":"So God answers your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":566.7,"endTime":569.31,"body":"prayers, but never answered this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":569.31,"endTime":570.21,"body":"one particular prayer."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":570.21,"endTime":573.0,"body":"Correct. like not even a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":570.21,"endTime":573.0,"body":"little. And so that made me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":573.0,"endTime":576.48,"body":"wonder, you know, if God hears"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":573.0,"endTime":576.48,"body":"and answers my prayers, like why"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":576.48,"endTime":577.98,"body":"isn't he answering this prayer?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":578.13,"endTime":580.98,"body":"Yeah, well, maybe it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":578.13,"endTime":580.98,"body":"a challenge that you're just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":580.98,"endTime":582.24,"body":"supposed to face in this life."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":582.9,"endTime":584.25,"body":"Could be. I don't think so."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":584.43,"endTime":586.2,"body":"I don't think so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":584.43,"endTime":586.2,"body":"either. I was just, I was just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":586.23,"endTime":588.87,"body":"playing along to see what you,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":586.23,"endTime":588.87,"body":"like how would you respond to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":588.87,"endTime":589.29,"body":"that though?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":589.44,"endTime":590.19,"body":"Like now?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":590.43,"endTime":592.53,"body":"Yeah. So because that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":590.43,"endTime":592.53,"body":"what's been told to me since I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":592.53,"endTime":594.48,"body":"was like, forever, you know?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":594.51,"endTime":596.97,"body":"Yeah. I don't want to like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":594.51,"endTime":596.97,"body":"put words in anyone else's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":596.97,"endTime":599.07,"body":"mouth. Like if someone wants to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":596.97,"endTime":599.07,"body":"like view this as like a trial"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":599.07,"endTime":602.28,"body":"or a struggle. You know, or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":599.07,"endTime":602.28,"body":"whatever, like, I, I'm fine with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":602.28,"endTime":606.06,"body":"that. For me, those words like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":602.28,"endTime":606.06,"body":"trial, struggle, temptation,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":606.06,"endTime":608.28,"body":"inclination were, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":606.06,"endTime":608.28,"body":"incredibly damaging to me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":608.28,"endTime":609.0,"body":"A tendency."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":609.0,"endTime":612.21,"body":"Yes, like a tendency. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":609.0,"endTime":612.21,"body":"like they did like, like God had"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":612.21,"endTime":614.79,"body":"given me this thing I just like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":612.21,"endTime":614.79,"body":"had to learn to say no, and then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":614.79,"endTime":618.93,"body":"I could be exalted. And that was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":614.79,"endTime":618.93,"body":"just like, that just was so bad"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":618.93,"endTime":622.02,"body":"for my soul. Because it just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":618.93,"endTime":622.02,"body":"like, once again, like made me"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":622.02,"endTime":624.84,"body":"feel inherently broken. And then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":622.02,"endTime":624.84,"body":"once I started, like seeing my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":624.84,"endTime":627.75,"body":"orientation, like not as a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":624.84,"endTime":627.75,"body":"defect, but as a gift, like that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":627.75,"endTime":631.2,"body":"was such a freeing thing. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":627.75,"endTime":631.2,"body":"once I stopped trying to, trying"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":631.2,"endTime":634.83,"body":"to change it, I really saw how"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":631.2,"endTime":634.83,"body":"my orientation was, it was a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":634.83,"endTime":636.69,"body":"gift and not something that was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":634.83,"endTime":636.69,"body":"wrong with me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":637.2,"endTime":640.62,"body":"For me, there was a lot"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":637.2,"endTime":640.62,"body":"of power in ownership. And that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":640.68,"endTime":644.58,"body":"as I was looking at it that way,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":640.68,"endTime":644.58,"body":"I felt like I was a victim of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":644.58,"endTime":648.93,"body":"something. Like I identified, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":644.58,"endTime":648.93,"body":"guess, as dealing with feelings"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":648.93,"endTime":652.11,"body":"of same sex attraction. I put it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":648.93,"endTime":652.11,"body":"as far away as possible from me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":652.11,"endTime":655.02,"body":"because it was something bad."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":652.11,"endTime":655.02,"body":"You know, it was like an illness"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":655.02,"endTime":660.09,"body":"or disease. And I didn't want to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":655.02,"endTime":660.09,"body":"be defined by that. And as I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":660.12,"endTime":663.51,"body":"kind of had the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":660.12,"endTime":663.51,"body":"conclusion that you did, Ben, of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":663.51,"endTime":665.82,"body":"this is part of me, this is a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":663.51,"endTime":665.82,"body":"gift. That's when I started"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":665.82,"endTime":668.88,"body":"identifying myself differently."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":665.82,"endTime":668.88,"body":"I took on a more identity based"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":668.88,"endTime":673.38,"body":"label that felt like this was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":668.88,"endTime":673.38,"body":"part of me and something to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":673.38,"endTime":675.96,"body":"honored and something I can move"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":673.38,"endTime":675.96,"body":"forward with, rather than run"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":675.96,"endTime":676.62,"body":"away from."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":677.28,"endTime":679.56,"body":"And you know, and I think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":677.28,"endTime":679.56,"body":"like, I wrote about this in my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":679.56,"endTime":682.2,"body":"book, but there's a line where I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":679.56,"endTime":682.2,"body":"wrote, like, I spent so much"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":682.2,"endTime":684.9,"body":"time trying to change who I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":682.2,"endTime":684.9,"body":"that I missed out on being who I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":684.9,"endTime":685.26,"body":"was."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":685.29,"endTime":685.83,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":687.09,"endTime":690.45,"body":"I feel like my orientation"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":687.09,"endTime":690.45,"body":"is something that was designed"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":690.45,"endTime":690.96,"body":"for me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":691.41,"endTime":692.01,"body":"That's beautiful."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":692.01,"endTime":694.35,"body":"And the reason that God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":692.01,"endTime":694.35,"body":"didn't change me was because I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":694.35,"endTime":695.64,"body":"not supposed to be changed."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":695.81,"endTime":698.24,"body":"I mentioned this in my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":695.81,"endTime":698.24,"body":"book, it's in my first chapter"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":698.69,"endTime":701.51,"body":"of this experience I had, that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":698.69,"endTime":701.51,"body":"was the first time that I really"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":701.51,"endTime":705.2,"body":"felt like I was created"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":701.51,"endTime":705.2,"body":"intentionally, and that this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":705.2,"endTime":709.43,"body":"aspect of my identity is whole,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":705.2,"endTime":709.43,"body":"and doesn't need to change. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":709.43,"endTime":713.63,"body":"was at the Washington DC temple"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":709.43,"endTime":713.63,"body":"praying. And it was one of the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":713.63,"endTime":717.56,"body":"first times that I'd ever like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":713.63,"endTime":717.56,"body":"prayed in a way that wasn't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":717.56,"endTime":720.8,"body":"rooted in this idea of \"God,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":717.56,"endTime":720.8,"body":"please change me.\" My prayer"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":720.8,"endTime":723.65,"body":"shifted, and it wasn't like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":720.8,"endTime":723.65,"body":"\"I'm so sorry for who I am. I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":723.65,"endTime":728.09,"body":"so sorry for who I am. Please"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":723.65,"endTime":728.09,"body":"fix me.\" It was like, \"Hey, if"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":728.09,"endTime":731.87,"body":"this is never going to change,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":728.09,"endTime":731.87,"body":"let me know why and what I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":731.87,"endTime":735.38,"body":"should do with it\" and, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":731.87,"endTime":735.38,"body":"that's like a small shift, but"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":735.38,"endTime":736.88,"body":"it's also a pretty dramatic"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":735.38,"endTime":736.88,"body":"shift."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":736.91,"endTime":737.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":737.194,"endTime":739.684,"body":"Of \"Please change me\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":737.194,"endTime":739.684,"body":"to \"Okay, what should I do with"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":739.684,"endTime":743.074,"body":"this?\" And as I said that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":739.684,"endTime":743.074,"body":"prayer, I have one of the most"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":740.87,"endTime":854.87,"body":"So, so what I'm hearing you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":740.87,"endTime":854.87,"body":"say is like to use an analogy,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":743.344,"endTime":747.214,"body":"transcendental beautiful"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":743.344,"endTime":747.214,"body":"spiritual experiences of my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":747.214,"endTime":751.204,"body":"life. I would say the most. It"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":747.214,"endTime":751.204,"body":"was really something. It was so"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":751.204,"endTime":754.834,"body":"powerful. How much should I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":751.204,"endTime":754.834,"body":"share? I'll share this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":755.254,"endTime":758.074,"body":"experience was given to me I'll"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":755.254,"endTime":758.074,"body":"share with people. I had like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":758.074,"endTime":764.584,"body":"visions, of, of my identity, of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":758.074,"endTime":764.584,"body":"my soul, of who I am. And it was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":764.614,"endTime":770.224,"body":"like this mixture of like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":764.614,"endTime":770.224,"body":"imagery, and feeling. And part"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":770.224,"endTime":774.244,"body":"of that was, I don't know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":770.224,"endTime":774.244,"body":"don't want to sound crazy, Ben,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":774.244,"endTime":777.784,"body":"I don't but, and this is, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":774.244,"endTime":777.784,"body":"know, more deeply than I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":777.784,"endTime":781.324,"body":"shared, previously, but, but I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":777.784,"endTime":781.324,"body":"saw myself in the premortal"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":781.324,"endTime":784.864,"body":"life, as me having this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":781.324,"endTime":784.864,"body":"component of me and I felt that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":784.864,"endTime":789.664,"body":"my heavenly parents knew that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":784.864,"endTime":789.664,"body":"and understood it. And were okay"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":789.664,"endTime":792.994,"body":"with it. Like, it wasn't an"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":789.664,"endTime":792.994,"body":"issue but, and I was sent to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":792.994,"endTime":796.714,"body":"Earth at this time, not to, not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":792.994,"endTime":796.714,"body":"for it to be like the challenge"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":796.714,"endTime":801.364,"body":"that I would overcome, but as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":796.714,"endTime":801.364,"body":"something to develop my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":801.364,"endTime":806.134,"body":"character, and provide ways to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":801.364,"endTime":806.134,"body":"serve and provide ways to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":806.134,"endTime":811.864,"body":"develop a faith in Jesus Christ."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":806.134,"endTime":811.864,"body":"And I saw myself wanting, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":811.864,"endTime":818.074,"body":"wanting to come to earth as, a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":811.864,"endTime":818.074,"body":"gay. And as I was thinking abou"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":818.074,"endTime":820.804,"body":"the premortal life and who I a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":818.074,"endTime":820.804,"body":"now that kind of like took i"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":820.804,"endTime":823.954,"body":"away from this, like, this i"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":820.804,"endTime":823.954,"body":"like some curse that I was give"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":823.954,"endTime":827.854,"body":"to this is a blessing. This i"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":823.954,"endTime":827.854,"body":"something I like. And then i"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":827.854,"endTime":831.394,"body":"also moved into the next lif"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":827.854,"endTime":831.394,"body":"where where I saw myself wit"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":831.394,"endTime":835.144,"body":"God as whole, as me. And it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":831.394,"endTime":835.144,"body":"s weird, I don't really know h"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":835.144,"endTime":837.244,"body":"w to explain it because it wasn"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":835.144,"endTime":837.244,"body":"t so much focused on like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":837.244,"endTime":842.224,"body":"m gay. But it was just like, th"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":837.244,"endTime":842.224,"body":"s is my makeup. This is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":842.224,"endTime":848.524,"body":"y spiritual DNA. This is who I a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":842.224,"endTime":848.524,"body":". And I felt loved and held a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":848.524,"endTime":851.794,"body":"d accepted and validated in tha"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":854.87,"endTime":857.36,"body":"like you kind of viewed your"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":854.87,"endTime":857.36,"body":"orientation, kind of like maybe"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":857.36,"endTime":860.69,"body":"something you've carried around."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":857.36,"endTime":860.69,"body":"And then you saw that it was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":860.69,"endTime":862.4,"body":"like, actually like, part of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":860.69,"endTime":862.4,"body":"your being."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":862.47,"endTime":864.24,"body":"Yeah, yeah, definitely."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":864.299,"endTime":865.259,"body":"What did that do for you?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":865.63,"endTime":870.55,"body":"It changed my entire"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":865.63,"endTime":870.55,"body":"life. I stopped hating myself. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":870.55,"endTime":875.41,"body":"became way less depressed, way"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":870.55,"endTime":875.41,"body":"less anxious, way more connected"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":875.44,"endTime":880.03,"body":"to God. And I also started"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":875.44,"endTime":880.03,"body":"giving more and serving more and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":880.03,"endTime":884.74,"body":"opening up to where I could,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":880.03,"endTime":884.74,"body":"like connect with other people."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":885.28,"endTime":888.55,"body":"And it, that really that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":885.28,"endTime":888.55,"body":"experience was kind of like the,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":889.0,"endTime":892.33,"body":"the catalyst in my, like even"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":889.0,"endTime":892.33,"body":"being on this podcast, like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":892.45,"endTime":896.44,"body":"coming out in a way that was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":892.45,"endTime":896.44,"body":"centered on trying to help"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":896.44,"endTime":899.47,"body":"people because I know what it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":896.44,"endTime":899.47,"body":"feels like, what it felt like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":899.47,"endTime":902.5,"body":"for me To be viewing myself"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":899.47,"endTime":902.5,"body":"through that other lens."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":902.57,"endTime":907.55,"body":"Yeah. I didn't have a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":902.57,"endTime":907.55,"body":"moment like that. But I can"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":907.55,"endTime":910.85,"body":"think, I can think back like on"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":907.55,"endTime":910.85,"body":"the time of my life when things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":910.85,"endTime":914.51,"body":"changed for me, like when I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":910.85,"endTime":914.51,"body":"stopped saying same sex"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":914.51,"endTime":917.96,"body":"attraction or SSA, because that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":914.51,"endTime":917.96,"body":"for me was like, if when I said"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":917.96,"endTime":920.45,"body":"I had same sex attraction that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":917.96,"endTime":920.45,"body":"was, and I want to say, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":920.45,"endTime":922.94,"body":"people can definitely"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":920.45,"endTime":922.94,"body":"self-define that way. But for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":922.94,"endTime":926.87,"body":"me, it was like, there's this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":922.94,"endTime":926.87,"body":"thing that I need to change. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":926.87,"endTime":929.24,"body":"for me, like starting to call"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":926.87,"endTime":929.24,"body":"myself gay was like, \"Okay, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":929.42,"endTime":931.67,"body":"tried to change. I can't. I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":929.42,"endTime":931.67,"body":"just gonna, like thrive with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":931.85,"endTime":935.84,"body":"what God's given me.\" And that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":931.85,"endTime":935.84,"body":"was like, in my late 20s. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":935.84,"endTime":937.79,"body":"just like, remember some things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":935.84,"endTime":937.79,"body":"that happened around that time,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":937.94,"endTime":940.55,"body":"just like having a crush on a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":937.94,"endTime":940.55,"body":"guy and like, not feeling bad"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":940.55,"endTime":944.39,"body":"about it. I remember Josh and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":940.55,"endTime":944.39,"body":"Lolly like wrote, theire coming"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":944.39,"endTime":946.37,"body":"out post. And I was like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":944.39,"endTime":946.37,"body":"\"They're happy. They've been"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":946.37,"endTime":949.7,"body":"married for 10 years. Like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":946.37,"endTime":949.7,"body":"can be gay and say I'm gay and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":949.7,"endTime":952.04,"body":"still get married.\" So it was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":949.7,"endTime":952.04,"body":"like, I felt like there was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":952.04,"endTime":954.92,"body":"like, all this whole, like, all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":952.04,"endTime":954.92,"body":"these possibilities ahead of me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":955.38,"endTime":956.67,"body":"You mentioned"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":955.38,"endTime":956.67,"body":"possibilities. And I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":956.67,"endTime":960.33,"body":"thinking about this in terms of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":956.67,"endTime":960.33,"body":"like, having a soft heart, like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":960.33,"endTime":962.34,"body":"a broken heart, a contrite"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":960.33,"endTime":962.34,"body":"spirit. And in the Scriptures,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":962.34,"endTime":965.88,"body":"there's this phrase of like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":962.34,"endTime":965.88,"body":"softening your heart. And for a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":965.88,"endTime":969.66,"body":"really long time, my prayers"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":965.88,"endTime":969.66,"body":"were said with a hard heart when"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":969.66,"endTime":972.69,"body":"it came to this aspect of who I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":969.66,"endTime":972.69,"body":"am. Because I was only looking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":972.69,"endTime":976.32,"body":"for one answer. And that time"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":972.69,"endTime":976.32,"body":"when I softened my heart, and I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":976.32,"endTime":979.38,"body":"was really like, \"Okay, God,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":976.32,"endTime":979.38,"body":"like, guide me, I'm gonna open"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":979.38,"endTime":982.95,"body":"myself up to a lot of different"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":979.38,"endTime":982.95,"body":"possibilities. And then trust"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":982.95,"endTime":987.93,"body":"that with faith and personal"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":982.95,"endTime":987.93,"body":"revelation, I can move forward"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":987.93,"endTime":990.54,"body":"on the path that's going to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":987.93,"endTime":990.54,"body":"right for me.\" And to me, that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":990.54,"endTime":994.59,"body":"kind of represents looking back"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":990.54,"endTime":994.59,"body":"a softening of my heart. And the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":994.59,"endTime":998.1,"body":"answer that I was, like, even"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":994.59,"endTime":998.1,"body":"like the possibility of answer"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":998.1,"endTime":1002.36,"body":"that I thought I could get was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":998.1,"endTime":1002.36,"body":"opened. And then I was able to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1002.39,"endTime":1003.83,"body":"make healthier decisions."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1003.86,"endTime":1004.37,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1004.54,"endTime":1007.45,"body":"Also, I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1004.54,"endTime":1007.45,"body":"about like, just like faith and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1007.45,"endTime":1010.63,"body":"the power of Jesus Christ in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1007.45,"endTime":1010.63,"body":"healing power of Christ's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1010.63,"endTime":1016.12,"body":"atonement. And I used to think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1010.63,"endTime":1016.12,"body":"that the healing that I needed"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1016.12,"endTime":1020.14,"body":"was, like a switch in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1016.12,"endTime":1020.14,"body":"orientation, but the healing"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1020.14,"endTime":1025.15,"body":"that I really needed was just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1020.14,"endTime":1025.15,"body":"like, love for myself. Like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1026.05,"endTime":1027.13,"body":"does that make sense?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1027.0,"endTime":1029.76,"body":"Yeah. I mean, the way I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1027.0,"endTime":1029.76,"body":"talked about in the past is"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1029.76,"endTime":1034.74,"body":"27 as"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1029.76,"endTime":1034.74,"body":"like, \"I've got this weakness."},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1034.77,"endTime":1037.95,"body":"My weakness is being gay. And if"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1034.77,"endTime":1037.95,"body":"I'm just, if I turn to Christ,"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1037.95,"endTime":1040.26,"body":"and God will take away my"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1037.95,"endTime":1040.26,"body":"weakness of being gay, and then"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1040.26,"endTime":1043.38,"body":"make it a strength by like,"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1040.26,"endTime":1043.38,"body":"making me straight.\" But that"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1043.38,"endTime":1045.54,"body":"wasn't my weakness at all. Like,"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1043.38,"endTime":1045.54,"body":"like, my weakness was like not"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1045.54,"endTime":1048.54,"body":"trusting God in His plan. My"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1045.54,"endTime":1048.54,"body":"weakness was this, this shame"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1048.54,"endTime":1051.57,"body":"and self hatred that I felt. And"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1048.54,"endTime":1051.57,"body":"then as I turned to God, like"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1051.57,"endTime":1053.58,"body":"that shame went away. And that"},{"speaker":"like, I read Ether 12","startTime":1051.57,"endTime":1053.58,"body":"self hatred went away."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1053.61,"endTime":1055.47,"body":"Yeah, like my heart"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1053.61,"endTime":1055.47,"body":"needed to heal not my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1055.47,"endTime":1056.16,"body":"orientation."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1056.58,"endTime":1059.37,"body":"Exactly. And actually,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1056.58,"endTime":1059.37,"body":"like, like, having that paradigm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1059.37,"endTime":1063.33,"body":"shift of like, I don't need to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1059.37,"endTime":1063.33,"body":"heal my orientation was like one"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1063.33,"endTime":1066.0,"body":"of the huge things that really"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1063.33,"endTime":1066.0,"body":"brought me to like a life where"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1066.0,"endTime":1069.45,"body":"I was like, happy and thriving."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1066.0,"endTime":1069.45,"body":"And I can like picture 22 year"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1069.45,"endTime":1072.06,"body":"old Ben, like in the closet"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1069.45,"endTime":1072.06,"body":"hearing me say that, and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1072.06,"endTime":1072.36,"body":"Freaking out?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1072.36,"endTime":1075.42,"body":"Yeah freaking out, because,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1072.36,"endTime":1075.42,"body":"because all I wanted was to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.42,"endTime":1077.46,"body":"straight. Like, I just wanted to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1075.42,"endTime":1077.46,"body":"live a normal life, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1077.46,"endTime":1080.61,"body":"anything I could have done to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1077.46,"endTime":1080.61,"body":"change it, I would have done."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1080.85,"endTime":1082.77,"body":"And the idea that it was going"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1080.85,"endTime":1082.77,"body":"to stay with me for the rest of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1082.77,"endTime":1086.07,"body":"my life, would like, terrified"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1082.77,"endTime":1086.07,"body":"me, I'm not sure terrified,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1086.07,"endTime":1088.95,"body":"like, is even a strong enough"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1086.07,"endTime":1088.95,"body":"word. Like it like immobilized"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1088.95,"endTime":1089.61,"body":"me with fear."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1090.11,"endTime":1093.89,"body":"Well, like think of the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1090.11,"endTime":1093.89,"body":"perceived eternal consequences"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1093.89,"endTime":1094.37,"body":"of that."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1094.72,"endTime":1099.19,"body":"I remember, like, once I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1094.72,"endTime":1099.19,"body":"like started thinking about what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1099.55,"endTime":1101.65,"body":"was going on in my life, and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1099.55,"endTime":1101.65,"body":"just, like, needed to talk about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1101.65,"endTime":1103.39,"body":"it. But I couldn't talk about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1101.65,"endTime":1103.39,"body":"because I was so afraid. Like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1103.39,"endTime":1105.79,"body":"like wanted to, like write about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1103.39,"endTime":1105.79,"body":"it. But I couldn't write about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1105.79,"endTime":1108.61,"body":"it in my journal, because then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1105.79,"endTime":1108.61,"body":"my kids would read it someday."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1108.61,"endTime":1109.63,"body":"And they would know their,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1108.61,"endTime":1109.63,"body":"their..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1110.47,"endTime":1112.45,"body":"I stopped keeping a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1110.47,"endTime":1112.45,"body":"journal for that very reason."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1112.51,"endTime":1117.28,"body":"So I had this secret"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1112.51,"endTime":1117.28,"body":"journal that I like, hid. Like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1117.28,"endTime":1118.27,"body":"it's this, I just like..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1118.27,"endTime":1118.78,"body":"Say it."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1118.81,"endTime":1121.63,"body":"It was like, so long ago, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1118.81,"endTime":1121.63,"body":"just, it's just so weird to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1121.63,"endTime":1123.64,"body":"like, try and put myself back in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1121.63,"endTime":1123.64,"body":"those shoes."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1123.679,"endTime":1124.189,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1124.48,"endTime":1127.09,"body":"Just like thinking about, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1124.48,"endTime":1127.09,"body":"just was just like, so"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1127.09,"endTime":1130.33,"body":"terrified. I just wanted to do"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1127.09,"endTime":1130.33,"body":"anything I could, like, I'm just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1130.33,"endTime":1132.13,"body":"like, writing like, \"God, I want"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1130.33,"endTime":1132.13,"body":"to be good. Like, I want to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1132.13,"endTime":1134.68,"body":"good. I'm trying to be good."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1132.13,"endTime":1134.68,"body":"Just like, please help me be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1134.68,"endTime":1137.05,"body":"good. Like, like, help me just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1134.68,"endTime":1137.05,"body":"live the life that I'm supposed"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1137.05,"endTime":1138.61,"body":"to live.\" And..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1138.61,"endTime":1140.29,"body":"And that's sad, Ben,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1138.61,"endTime":1140.29,"body":"because you're thinking that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1140.29,"endTime":1143.08,"body":"there's something inherently"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1140.29,"endTime":1143.08,"body":"evil about you just because you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1143.08,"endTime":1143.68,"body":"exist."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1143.71,"endTime":1145.84,"body":"Yeah. And I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1143.71,"endTime":1145.84,"body":"not just me thinking that. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1145.84,"endTime":1148.06,"body":"talked to young young kids all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1145.84,"endTime":1148.06,"body":"the time."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1148.06,"endTime":1149.17,"body":"That's exactly how I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1148.06,"endTime":1149.17,"body":"felt."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1149.2,"endTime":1151.18,"body":"Yeah. And people say that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1149.2,"endTime":1151.18,"body":"all the time, \"Like, like, why"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1151.18,"endTime":1153.49,"body":"is this an evil part of me?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1151.18,"endTime":1153.49,"body":"Like, why do I have this evil"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1153.49,"endTime":1154.57,"body":"part of me? I just want to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1153.49,"endTime":1154.57,"body":"good.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1154.9,"endTime":1157.72,"body":"You know that analogy,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1154.9,"endTime":1157.72,"body":"it's like, I think it's, I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1157.72,"endTime":1160.84,"body":"want to, maybe I'm wrong, but I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1157.72,"endTime":1160.84,"body":"think it's Native American,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1160.87,"endTime":1164.86,"body":"like, lore. Or maybe it's just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1160.87,"endTime":1164.86,"body":"the story. Who knows? But it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1164.86,"endTime":1167.2,"body":"like, there's these two wolves"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1164.86,"endTime":1167.2,"body":"and there's like a good wolf and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1167.2,"endTime":1169.99,"body":"a bad wolf. And the one that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1167.2,"endTime":1169.99,"body":"lives is the one you feed."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1170.29,"endTime":1172.75,"body":"Right? And people are like \"I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1170.29,"endTime":1172.75,"body":"don't want to feed the bad part"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1172.75,"endTime":1175.42,"body":"of me. I don't want to accept"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1172.75,"endTime":1175.42,"body":"this.\" And like you're just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1175.42,"endTime":1178.99,"body":"abusing yourself. You're not,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1175.42,"endTime":1178.99,"body":"not feeding a bad wolf. You're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1178.99,"endTime":1183.37,"body":"just like hurting you. I also"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1178.99,"endTime":1183.37,"body":"was thinking about Philippians"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1183.37,"endTime":1186.01,"body":"13 where it says I can do all"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1183.37,"endTime":1186.01,"body":"things through Christ who"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1186.01,"endTime":1189.79,"body":"strengthens me. And I was"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1186.01,"endTime":1189.79,"body":"thinking about it today because"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1189.79,"endTime":1192.64,"body":"that's like, what used to be"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1189.79,"endTime":1192.64,"body":"like one of my mantra"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1192.64,"endTime":1194.95,"body":"scriptures. Like I can do this"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1192.64,"endTime":1194.95,"body":"and Christ is gonna strengthen"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1194.95,"endTime":1198.34,"body":"me. And it says Christ who"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1194.95,"endTime":1198.34,"body":"strengthens me. It doesn't say"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1198.34,"endTime":1203.08,"body":"like Christ who changes me. Or"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1198.34,"endTime":1203.08,"body":"Christ, who flips my identity."},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1203.35,"endTime":1208.12,"body":"Like Christ strengthened me in"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1203.35,"endTime":1208.12,"body":"an unforeseen way. He"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1208.12,"endTime":1213.28,"body":"strengthened my testimony, my"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1208.12,"endTime":1213.28,"body":"sense of self, my eternal view"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1213.28,"endTime":1217.81,"body":"of who I am, and who I am to"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1213.28,"endTime":1217.81,"body":"become, and to serve. And when I"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1217.81,"endTime":1222.55,"body":"think about like, like who I am,"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1217.81,"endTime":1222.55,"body":"gosh, like, like now looking"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1222.67,"endTime":1225.49,"body":"back, changing my orientation"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1222.67,"endTime":1225.49,"body":"would have been the worst thing"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1225.49,"endTime":1229.36,"body":"that could have happened to me."},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1225.49,"endTime":1229.36,"body":"Like, I do not want that to"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1229.36,"endTime":1232.72,"body":"happen. It, it would be"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1229.36,"endTime":1232.72,"body":"horrible, because I would lose"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1232.72,"endTime":1237.16,"body":"such an integral part of me."},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1232.72,"endTime":1237.16,"body":"Like, I don't want that at all."},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1237.73,"endTime":1240.28,"body":"And to be honest, I'm not even"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1237.73,"endTime":1240.28,"body":"sure that God could change our"},{"speaker":"4","startTime":1240.28,"endTime":1240.94,"body":"orientation."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1241.02,"endTime":1244.35,"body":"You know, I've wondered"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1241.02,"endTime":1244.35,"body":"that as well. Like, let's say, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1244.35,"endTime":1248.16,"body":"mean, can God like change our"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1244.35,"endTime":1248.16,"body":"genders? Like, I mean, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1248.16,"endTime":1250.08,"body":"so much like, once again like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1248.16,"endTime":1250.08,"body":"we're not theologians, and we're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1250.08,"endTime":1251.16,"body":"not like called to teach"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1250.08,"endTime":1251.16,"body":"doctrine."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1251.16,"endTime":1252.57,"body":"We're getting into some"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1251.16,"endTime":1252.57,"body":"sticky space here."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1252.57,"endTime":1254.4,"body":"Yeah, we're getting into"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1252.57,"endTime":1254.4,"body":"some weeds here. But like, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1254.4,"endTime":1256.38,"body":"we all existed before we were"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1254.4,"endTime":1256.38,"body":"spirits. Like we were all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1256.38,"endTime":1259.5,"body":"intelligences did intelligences"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1256.38,"endTime":1259.5,"body":"have gender? Did they have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1259.5,"endTime":1262.92,"body":"orientation? Like, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1259.5,"endTime":1262.92,"body":"So when our heavenly parents"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1262.92,"endTime":1266.4,"body":"created us and made us spirits,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1262.92,"endTime":1266.4,"body":"like, do they like choose a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1266.4,"endTime":1269.37,"body":"gender for us? Did they, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1266.4,"endTime":1269.37,"body":"choose an orientation for us? Or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1269.37,"endTime":1271.83,"body":"was it like, already there?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1269.37,"endTime":1271.83,"body":"Like, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1271.9,"endTime":1274.57,"body":"Yeah. Like, it's not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1271.9,"endTime":1274.57,"body":"like a learned characteristic."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1274.81,"endTime":1278.14,"body":"And it's not like some sort of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1274.81,"endTime":1278.14,"body":"like, bad habit or sin that can"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1278.14,"endTime":1282.82,"body":"be changed. It just like, is. It"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1278.14,"endTime":1282.82,"body":"just is. Even I used to, like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1282.91,"endTime":1285.34,"body":"think about the resurrection."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1282.91,"endTime":1285.34,"body":"And I think it's an is an Alma"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1285.34,"endTime":1288.67,"body":"40, where it talks about like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1285.34,"endTime":1288.67,"body":"being restored, and like the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1288.67,"endTime":1290.47,"body":"body and the spirit will be in a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1288.67,"endTime":1290.47,"body":"perfect form."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1290.98,"endTime":1292.12,"body":"Around there probably."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1292.0,"endTime":1295.51,"body":"In that, that vicinity."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1292.0,"endTime":1295.51,"body":"And I used to like imagine"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1295.51,"endTime":1300.25,"body":"myself being resurrected as a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1295.51,"endTime":1300.25,"body":"straight eternal being. And that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1300.25,"endTime":1304.06,"body":"gave me hope. When I think about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1300.25,"endTime":1304.06,"body":"it now, I'd actually be like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1304.06,"endTime":1308.08,"body":"incredibly disappointed if that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1304.06,"endTime":1308.08,"body":"happened. I don't think it will."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1308.44,"endTime":1311.38,"body":"Because like I said, I feel like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1308.44,"endTime":1311.38,"body":"this is more of a, like an"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1311.38,"endTime":1314.38,"body":"internal identity trait that I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1311.38,"endTime":1314.38,"body":"have. And I'm cool with it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1314.38,"endTime":1318.67,"body":"Like, cool, I like who I am. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1314.38,"endTime":1318.67,"body":"don't know. Like, again, I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1318.67,"endTime":1320.92,"body":"know if we can, like, predict"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1318.67,"endTime":1320.92,"body":"what's going to happen in the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1320.92,"endTime":1326.38,"body":"next life. Because you can't."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1320.92,"endTime":1326.38,"body":"But me personally, I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1326.38,"endTime":1329.11,"body":"really feel that that will be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1326.38,"endTime":1329.11,"body":"the case."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1329.33,"endTime":1331.46,"body":"I reserve the right to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1329.33,"endTime":1331.46,"body":"change my mind on any of this,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1331.46,"endTime":1333.74,"body":"because I've changed my mind"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1331.46,"endTime":1333.74,"body":"about it in the past. But you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1333.74,"endTime":1336.05,"body":"know, there were there's a lot"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1333.74,"endTime":1336.05,"body":"of my life, most of my 20s where"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1336.05,"endTime":1338.66,"body":"I thought that as soon as I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1336.05,"endTime":1338.66,"body":"dead, I would be straight. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1338.66,"endTime":1340.61,"body":"And I also tried it when I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1338.66,"endTime":1340.61,"body":"your age when I was 27. That's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1340.61,"endTime":1342.59,"body":"what I thought, like, as soon as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1340.61,"endTime":1342.59,"body":"I was like, this was something"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1342.59,"endTime":1345.68,"body":"that was happening in my mortal"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1342.59,"endTime":1345.68,"body":"life, that would be gone once I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1345.68,"endTime":1349.43,"body":"wasn't like, mortal anymore. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1345.68,"endTime":1349.43,"body":"then when I was like dating"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1349.43,"endTime":1352.37,"body":"Jordan, and like in love with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1349.43,"endTime":1352.37,"body":"Jordan. I was like, Jordan and I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1352.76,"endTime":1355.34,"body":"are going to be together for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1352.76,"endTime":1355.34,"body":"eternity. And we're going to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1355.34,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"sealed together. And like I had"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1355.34,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"worked it all out in my head of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"like, there in the Celestial"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1361.13,"body":"kingdom, there are 3 degrees."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1364.13,"body":"And the top one is for straight"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1361.13,"endTime":1364.13,"body":"people so that they can have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1364.13,"endTime":1366.29,"body":"kids for all eternity, which I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1364.13,"endTime":1366.29,"body":"don't really want to do anyway."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1366.29,"endTime":1370.1,"body":"And then tier two is for the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1366.29,"endTime":1370.1,"body":"gays who want to be sealed"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1370.1,"endTime":1372.35,"body":"together. And the bottom tiers"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1370.1,"endTime":1372.35,"body":"are people who want to stay"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1372.35,"endTime":1375.86,"body":"single. Like, that's really how"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1372.35,"endTime":1375.86,"body":"I thought. And I was like that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1375.86,"endTime":1378.14,"body":"is for sure what's gonna happen."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1375.86,"endTime":1378.14,"body":"And then you know, things with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1378.14,"endTime":1380.36,"body":"Jordan ended, I just got to a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1378.14,"endTime":1380.36,"body":"place where was like, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1380.39,"endTime":1382.55,"body":"I don't know what's going to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1380.39,"endTime":1382.55,"body":"happen in the next life. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1385.46,"body":"right now, I don't really need"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1382.58,"endTime":1385.46,"body":"to know. I don't need to know my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1385.46,"endTime":1387.56,"body":"orientation is going to be like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1385.46,"endTime":1387.56,"body":"an eternity. And there's a"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1387.56,"endTime":1390.62,"body":"2 that I"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1387.56,"endTime":1390.62,"body":"really liked. It says, it says,"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1390.65,"endTime":1393.11,"body":"\"Beloved, now are we the"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1390.65,"endTime":1393.11,"body":"children of God, and it does not"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1393.11,"endTime":1395.27,"body":"yet appear what we shall be. But"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1393.11,"endTime":1395.27,"body":"this we know that when he shall"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1395.27,"endTime":1398.24,"body":"appear, we shall be like Him,"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1395.27,"endTime":1398.24,"body":"for we shall see Him as He is.\""},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1398.69,"endTime":1399.95,"body":"And what I like about that"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1398.69,"endTime":1399.95,"body":"scripture is that it says, you"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1399.95,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"know, what we know now is we're"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1399.95,"endTime":1402.14,"body":"God's children. And we don't"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1404.87,"body":"know what we're going to be like"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1402.14,"endTime":1404.87,"body":"later. But we know that what"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1404.87,"endTime":1408.98,"body":"matters is we want to be like"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1404.87,"endTime":1408.98,"body":"Jesus. And so like, that's what"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1408.98,"endTime":1411.98,"body":"I try and focus on like, I've"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1408.98,"endTime":1411.98,"body":"stopped caring about, you know,"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1411.98,"endTime":1415.22,"body":"in the next life, am I going to"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1411.98,"endTime":1415.22,"body":"be gay or straight. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1415.22,"endTime":1418.85,"body":"have my opinions and"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1415.22,"endTime":1418.85,"body":"assumptions. But that doesn't"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1418.85,"endTime":1421.49,"body":"matter to me as much as like,"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1418.85,"endTime":1421.49,"body":"\"Am I becoming like Jesus"},{"speaker":"scripture in 1 John 3","startTime":1421.49,"endTime":1422.06,"body":"Christ?\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1422.24,"endTime":1422.69,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1423.14,"endTime":1425.42,"body":"Like if I become straight,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1423.14,"endTime":1425.42,"body":"but I'm not humble, then what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1425.42,"endTime":1428.03,"body":"does it matter? Like if I like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1425.42,"endTime":1428.03,"body":"like, if I'm gay, and I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1428.03,"endTime":1430.79,"body":"have charity, like, what does it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1428.03,"endTime":1430.79,"body":"matter? You know?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1433.45,"endTime":1435.91,"body":"Yeah, it's actually"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1433.45,"endTime":1435.91,"body":"funny, like, like, to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1435.91,"endTime":1438.13,"body":"completely honest. I was saying"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1435.91,"endTime":1438.13,"body":"that. And that's the first time"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1438.13,"endTime":1441.43,"body":"I've really said that in like, a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1438.13,"endTime":1441.43,"body":"more public. I don't know. Like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1441.43,"endTime":1443.89,"body":"I've told people in private that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1441.43,"endTime":1443.89,"body":"I don't, that I think I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1443.89,"endTime":1447.04,"body":"be like, gay forever. And I'm"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1443.89,"endTime":1447.04,"body":"comfortable with that. But like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1447.16,"endTime":1452.02,"body":"I don't know why it's like, so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1447.16,"endTime":1452.02,"body":"difficult to say that. Will you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1452.0,"endTime":1454.55,"body":"Yeah. I mean, it, well..."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1452.02,"endTime":1452.89,"body":"help me figure that out."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1455.69,"endTime":1457.25,"body":"Like, okay, first of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1455.69,"endTime":1457.25,"body":"all, like, I don't want to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1457.25,"endTime":1461.63,"body":"wrong. I don't want to like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1457.25,"endTime":1461.63,"body":"give people, but, but at the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1461.63,"endTime":1464.09,"body":"same time, it feels like I'm not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1461.63,"endTime":1464.09,"body":"allowed to say that."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1464.27,"endTime":1465.8,"body":"Yeah. Well..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1466.4,"endTime":1468.59,"body":"And like, I believe it."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1469.4,"endTime":1472.25,"body":"So like I said at the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1469.4,"endTime":1472.25,"body":"beginning, like, like, a problem"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1472.28,"endTime":1475.58,"body":"well-defined as a problem half"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1472.28,"endTime":1475.58,"body":"solved. And, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1475.58,"endTime":1478.43,"body":"problem I had is that I didn't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1475.58,"endTime":1478.43,"body":"see a place for gay Ben in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1478.43,"endTime":1479.03,"body":"eternity."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1479.18,"endTime":1479.6,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1479.9,"endTime":1484.13,"body":"And I'm not sure that the,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1479.9,"endTime":1484.13,"body":"well, the way I've been taught"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1484.61,"endTime":1488.12,"body":"that, you know, gay people fit"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1484.61,"endTime":1488.12,"body":"or LGBTQ people fit into the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1488.12,"endTime":1491.9,"body":"plan of salvation, is that we're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1488.12,"endTime":1491.9,"body":"children of God, but this part"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1491.9,"endTime":1496.04,"body":"of us goes away. And the way"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1491.9,"endTime":1496.04,"body":"I've been taught the doctrine is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1496.04,"endTime":1500.12,"body":"that there isn't really room for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1496.04,"endTime":1500.12,"body":"LGBTQ people in an exalted"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1500.12,"endTime":1504.29,"body":"world. So that's a problem. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1500.12,"endTime":1504.29,"body":"because, you know, we don't know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1504.29,"endTime":1508.04,"body":"where we fit in. And so what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1504.29,"endTime":1508.04,"body":"that requires of us is that we"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1508.04,"endTime":1510.92,"body":"have to have a lot of faith and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1508.04,"endTime":1510.92,"body":"hope for a future that we might"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1510.92,"endTime":1514.31,"body":"not even want. But that we have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1510.92,"endTime":1514.31,"body":"to trust that God is like good"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1514.31,"endTime":1517.25,"body":"and that we won't end up with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1514.31,"endTime":1517.25,"body":"eternity that we, that God's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1517.25,"endTime":1518.36,"body":"like, like \"Aha! Gotcha!\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1519.86,"endTime":1521.42,"body":"\"Aha! You're straight"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1519.86,"endTime":1521.42,"body":"now. And here's a girl.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1521.45,"endTime":1525.56,"body":"Yeah. But, but the truth is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1521.45,"endTime":1525.56,"body":"the way, the way like the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1525.56,"endTime":1527.54,"body":"celestial kingdom has been"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1525.56,"endTime":1527.54,"body":"taught to me like there isn't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1527.69,"endTime":1528.74,"body":"room for gay people."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1528.77,"endTime":1529.13,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1529.49,"endTime":1532.61,"body":"And I mean that there's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1529.49,"endTime":1532.61,"body":"room for Ben Schilaty. But Ben"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1532.61,"endTime":1535.16,"body":"Schilaty is going to be married"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1532.61,"endTime":1535.16,"body":"to a woman. That's the way it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1535.16,"endTime":1535.79,"body":"been taught to me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1535.82,"endTime":1536.69,"body":"Okay. Okay."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1536.9,"endTime":1540.8,"body":"And I don't know, that,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1536.9,"endTime":1540.8,"body":"that, that feels uncomfortable"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1540.8,"endTime":1541.13,"body":"to me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1543.2,"body":"But definitely, it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1543.2,"body":"definitely uncomfortable to me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1543.68,"endTime":1547.1,"body":"But then I also think of like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1543.68,"endTime":1547.1,"body":"this is an ongoing restoration."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1547.1,"endTime":1550.25,"body":"So like, like, think of all the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1547.1,"endTime":1550.25,"body":"unknowns. Like how do we even"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1550.25,"endTime":1551.48,"body":"explain something eternal?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1551.57,"endTime":1555.71,"body":"Right? So what is it in the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1551.57,"endTime":1555.71,"body":"past is like, I've lived all"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1555.71,"endTime":1557.69,"body":"over the world and all over the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1555.71,"endTime":1557.69,"body":"western United States. I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1557.69,"endTime":1559.94,"body":"lived in a bunch of different"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1557.69,"endTime":1559.94,"body":"houses. And I've seen pictures"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1559.94,"endTime":1562.61,"body":"of these all these places before"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1559.94,"endTime":1562.61,"body":"I've gone. And every time I get"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1562.61,"endTime":1563.78,"body":"there, it's different than I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1562.61,"endTime":1563.78,"body":"expected."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1563.81,"endTime":1564.23,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1564.29,"endTime":1567.35,"body":"Like, it is super"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1564.29,"endTime":1567.35,"body":"different. And like, I just have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1567.35,"endTime":1569.06,"body":"no idea what heaven is gonna"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1567.35,"endTime":1569.06,"body":"look like, because it's going to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1569.06,"endTime":1570.14,"body":"be different than I imagine."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1570.39,"endTime":1573.78,"body":"Yeah, well, and I also"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1570.39,"endTime":1573.78,"body":"think, like, the way I got to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1573.78,"endTime":1577.44,"body":"where I am now is by asking God."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1573.78,"endTime":1577.44,"body":"And so I think if you're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1577.44,"endTime":1580.5,"body":"wondering if God's gonna change"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1577.44,"endTime":1580.5,"body":"your orientation, you can ask."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1580.53,"endTime":1584.61,"body":"You know, and like I said, it,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1580.53,"endTime":1584.61,"body":"that's, that's differing from"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1584.61,"endTime":1587.46,"body":"asking God to change your"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1584.61,"endTime":1587.46,"body":"orientation, but just like being"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1587.49,"endTime":1591.12,"body":"open to possibilities. And then"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1587.49,"endTime":1591.12,"body":"once you feel a little bit more"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1591.12,"endTime":1594.99,"body":"settled in like your identity,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1591.12,"endTime":1594.99,"body":"who knows, maybe first like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1594.99,"endTime":1599.52,"body":"maybe for me it's eternal. For"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1594.99,"endTime":1599.52,"body":"someone else it's not. I don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1599.52,"endTime":1602.7,"body":"really know. And I'm not going"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1599.52,"endTime":1602.7,"body":"to try to like, give one sort of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1602.7,"endTime":1605.94,"body":"like cookie cutter answer for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1602.7,"endTime":1605.94,"body":"everyone. But like, if you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1605.94,"endTime":1609.06,"body":"really have a sincere desire,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1605.94,"endTime":1609.06,"body":"ask and you shall receive."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1609.06,"endTime":1611.34,"body":"Knock, and it shall be opened"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1609.06,"endTime":1611.34,"body":"unto you. But I would kind of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1611.34,"endTime":1614.97,"body":"like caveat to try to do so with"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1611.34,"endTime":1614.97,"body":"a soft heart, as I was saying,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1614.97,"endTime":1619.32,"body":"and be open to different options"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1614.97,"endTime":1619.32,"body":"and kind of be willing to go"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1619.32,"endTime":1622.41,"body":"into that, that misty space"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1619.32,"endTime":1622.41,"body":"where you're not sure what the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1622.41,"endTime":1623.52,"body":"next steps look like."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1623.58,"endTime":1623.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1624.51,"endTime":1626.31,"body":"Or else you're just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1624.51,"endTime":1626.31,"body":"gonna keep running into a wall."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1626.61,"endTime":1629.79,"body":"Yeah. You know, I know, a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1626.61,"endTime":1629.79,"body":"lot of like, male gay friends"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1629.79,"endTime":1631.77,"body":"are like, you know, I want to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1629.79,"endTime":1631.77,"body":"married to women. Like, I want"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1631.77,"endTime":1633.39,"body":"to have kids. Like, I want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1631.77,"endTime":1633.39,"body":"have this traditional family"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1633.39,"endTime":1636.48,"body":"life. I just, it's not something"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1633.39,"endTime":1636.48,"body":"I'm sure I can do. And like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1636.48,"endTime":1638.07,"body":"think that's beautiful. Like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1636.48,"endTime":1638.07,"body":"those desires are beautiful."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1638.13,"endTime":1640.95,"body":"That wasn't something I wanted."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1638.13,"endTime":1640.95,"body":"Like, I never really want to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1640.95,"endTime":1642.78,"body":"have kids or be married to a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1640.95,"endTime":1642.78,"body":"woman. I just like felt like I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1642.78,"endTime":1646.08,"body":"was supposed to. And I just like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1642.78,"endTime":1646.08,"body":"wanted to have like a best"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1646.08,"endTime":1647.82,"body":"friend that I lived with, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1646.08,"endTime":1647.82,"body":"all the girls I dated. They were"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1647.82,"endTime":1649.68,"body":"like my best friends and I just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1647.82,"endTime":1649.68,"body":"like, loved hanging out with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1649.68,"endTime":1651.93,"body":"them. But like the idea of like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1649.68,"endTime":1651.93,"body":"actually being married to them."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1651.96,"endTime":1655.05,"body":"I remember like the girl I dated"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1651.96,"endTime":1655.05,"body":"the longest. I remember just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1655.05,"endTime":1657.3,"body":"like, picturing our future"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1655.05,"endTime":1657.3,"body":"together and I would just like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1657.48,"endTime":1659.4,"body":"freak out and like, \"I'll cross"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1657.48,"endTime":1659.4,"body":"that bridge. When I come to it."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1659.46,"endTime":1660.81,"body":"I'll cross that bridge when I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1659.46,"endTime":1660.81,"body":"come to it.\" I would like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1660.99,"endTime":1663.33,"body":"picture us like having a baby. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1660.99,"endTime":1663.33,"body":"was like, \"Oh my gosh, I can't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1663.33,"endTime":1665.58,"body":"do that. I can't do that.\" It"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1663.33,"endTime":1665.58,"body":"just like scared me so much."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1665.96,"endTime":1668.54,"body":"Well, and here's the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1665.96,"endTime":1668.54,"body":"deal. I don't necessarily"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1668.54,"endTime":1671.63,"body":"believe that wanting to have"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1668.54,"endTime":1671.63,"body":"kids and wanting a family"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1672.17,"endTime":1674.57,"body":"equates to wanting to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1672.17,"endTime":1674.57,"body":"straight."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1674.66,"endTime":1677.36,"body":"Definitely. I think that's,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1674.66,"endTime":1677.36,"body":"I think that's accurate. I, my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1677.36,"endTime":1680.54,"body":"point was that there are a range"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1677.36,"endTime":1680.54,"body":"of things that people want, in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1680.54,"endTime":1683.06,"body":"range like goals, like life and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1680.54,"endTime":1683.06,"body":"eternity goals that people have."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1683.09,"endTime":1685.88,"body":"Yeah, and that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1683.09,"endTime":1685.88,"body":"healthy. I think that's good."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1686.45,"endTime":1689.69,"body":"I don't want to like be too"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1686.45,"endTime":1689.69,"body":"harsh on the doctrine. But like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1689.72,"endTime":1692.57,"body":"the problem for me really was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1689.72,"endTime":1692.57,"body":"that there's no room for me an"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1693.29,"endTime":1693.32,"body":"exhaltation."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1693.41,"endTime":1693.86,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1693.89,"endTime":1695.93,"body":"Like that was the real"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1693.89,"endTime":1695.93,"body":"problem. And I remember like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1695.96,"endTime":1699.17,"body":"the moment I like became okay"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1695.96,"endTime":1699.17,"body":"with that was I was like doing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1699.17,"endTime":1703.22,"body":"sealings at the temple. And I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1699.17,"endTime":1703.22,"body":"was sealed, like, as a child by"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1703.22,"endTime":1707.54,"body":"proxy. And some of the promises"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1703.22,"endTime":1707.54,"body":"made in those, in that ordinance"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1707.54,"endTime":1710.81,"body":"are the same as in the ceiling"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1707.54,"endTime":1710.81,"body":"ordinance. I was like, \"Okay, if"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1710.81,"endTime":1713.42,"body":"I'm not married, like, I still"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1710.81,"endTime":1713.42,"body":"get these sealing blessings.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1713.66,"endTime":1716.6,"body":"And that, like gave me a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1713.66,"endTime":1716.6,"body":"peace. And so I just kind of got"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1716.6,"endTime":1719.45,"body":"to a place was like, you know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1716.6,"endTime":1719.45,"body":"don't know what my like future"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1719.45,"endTime":1721.97,"body":"is going to look like in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1719.45,"endTime":1721.97,"body":"eternity. I don't know if I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1721.97,"endTime":1723.86,"body":"going to be straight in the next"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1721.97,"endTime":1723.86,"body":"life. I don't know if I'm going"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1723.86,"endTime":1725.9,"body":"to be gay. I don't know what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1723.86,"endTime":1725.9,"body":"orientations even going to look"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1725.9,"endTime":1730.01,"body":"like. But like I'm sealed to my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1725.9,"endTime":1730.01,"body":"family. And right now, that's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1730.01,"endTime":1730.97,"body":"going to be enough for me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1731.47,"endTime":1734.95,"body":"I'm gonna share an"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1731.47,"endTime":1734.95,"body":"experience and I hope this like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1734.98,"endTime":1737.65,"body":"I'm not trying to make a direct"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1734.98,"endTime":1737.65,"body":"comparison with this. I'm just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1737.65,"endTime":1742.36,"body":"trying to like, explain a point."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1737.65,"endTime":1742.36,"body":"I watched a video the other day"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1742.36,"endTime":1746.26,"body":"in one of my classes, it's Elder"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1742.36,"endTime":1746.26,"body":"Renland, and he's talking about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1746.29,"endTime":1750.13,"body":"suicidal ideation and suicide."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1746.29,"endTime":1750.13,"body":"One of the things, like one of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1750.13,"endTime":1753.88,"body":"the points of the video is that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1750.13,"endTime":1753.88,"body":"there's kind of like an outdated"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1753.88,"endTime":1756.46,"body":"or like, I think he is the word"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1753.88,"endTime":1756.46,"body":"antiquated way of looking at"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1756.46,"endTime":1762.1,"body":"things where people who die by"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1756.46,"endTime":1762.1,"body":"suicide are cut off from certain"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1762.1,"endTime":1766.24,"body":"blessings in the eternities. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1762.1,"endTime":1766.24,"body":"he said, that is wrong, that is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1766.24,"endTime":1771.43,"body":"absolutely not true. And then"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1766.24,"endTime":1771.43,"body":"gave a more restored, spiritual,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1771.52,"endTime":1777.28,"body":"current view of the spirituality"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1771.52,"endTime":1777.28,"body":"in the place and the love for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1777.28,"endTime":1782.41,"body":"people who have died by suicide."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1777.28,"endTime":1782.41,"body":"And removing from, from that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1782.44,"endTime":1786.22,"body":"topic, I was just thinking about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1782.44,"endTime":1786.22,"body":"this idea of like, old ways of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1786.22,"endTime":1789.25,"body":"thinking versus new ways of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1786.22,"endTime":1789.25,"body":"thinking and how there are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1789.25,"endTime":1792.55,"body":"certain people that didn't have"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1789.25,"endTime":1792.55,"body":"a place in heaven that now have"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1792.55,"endTime":1796.63,"body":"a place in heaven because it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1792.55,"endTime":1796.63,"body":"been revealed. And sometimes I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1796.63,"endTime":1799.81,"body":"think, I mean, like, good"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1796.63,"endTime":1799.81,"body":"revelation comes from good"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1799.81,"endTime":1804.61,"body":"information. And as we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1799.81,"endTime":1804.61,"body":"understand more and get to know"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1805.12,"endTime":1808.0,"body":"a situation or a topic or an"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1805.12,"endTime":1808.0,"body":"issue, we can receive better"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1808.0,"endTime":1810.46,"body":"inspiration on that. And I think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1808.0,"endTime":1810.46,"body":"that explains like how the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1810.46,"endTime":1814.36,"body":"church is evolving right now."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1810.46,"endTime":1814.36,"body":"And I think suicide was one of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1814.36,"endTime":1817.24,"body":"those things where there just"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1814.36,"endTime":1817.24,"body":"wasn't good information on it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1817.48,"endTime":1820.9,"body":"And the inspiration was, was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1817.48,"endTime":1820.9,"body":"lacking in a certain sense."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1821.2,"endTime":1825.13,"body":"We're not there anymore. And so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1821.2,"endTime":1825.13,"body":"just like that type of, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1825.13,"endTime":1829.93,"body":"revelatory process made me think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1825.13,"endTime":1829.93,"body":"about, like different types of"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1829.93,"endTime":1834.64,"body":"people or identities that used"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1829.93,"endTime":1834.64,"body":"to not really have a place in"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1834.64,"endTime":1838.69,"body":"the plan of salvation, as"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1834.64,"endTime":1838.69,"body":"presented by current church"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1838.69,"endTime":1844.15,"body":"structure that now do. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1838.69,"endTime":1844.15,"body":"feel confident and hopeful that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1844.99,"endTime":1849.16,"body":"a similar thing will happen for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1844.99,"endTime":1849.16,"body":"LGBTQ people. As there's better"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1849.16,"endTime":1852.31,"body":"information and exposure and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1849.16,"endTime":1852.31,"body":"education, more inspiration will"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1852.31,"endTime":1855.52,"body":"come that will give us a more"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1852.31,"endTime":1855.52,"body":"robust, full picture of who we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1855.52,"endTime":1858.34,"body":"are, and how we are going to fit"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1855.52,"endTime":1858.34,"body":"in God's eternal plan."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1858.43,"endTime":1859.87,"body":"Yeah, you know, I was..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1859.87,"endTime":1860.71,"body":"Is that okay to say?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1860.83,"endTime":1863.05,"body":"You know, I think it's okay"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1860.83,"endTime":1863.05,"body":"to say as long as we say..."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1863.08,"endTime":1865.51,"body":"Like, I really am not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1863.08,"endTime":1865.51,"body":"trying to like mirror those two"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1865.51,"endTime":1866.38,"body":"things at all."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1866.47,"endTime":1869.05,"body":"Yeah. Well, I mean, the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1866.47,"endTime":1869.05,"body":"truth is like, it would be very"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1869.05,"endTime":1870.79,"body":"inappropriate for us to say"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1869.05,"endTime":1870.79,"body":"like, what the church will or"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1870.79,"endTime":1872.29,"body":"won't do what God will or won't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1870.79,"endTime":1872.29,"body":"teach us."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1872.32,"endTime":1872.86,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1872.89,"endTime":1875.59,"body":"But obviously, there's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1872.89,"endTime":1875.59,"body":"further light and knowledge that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1875.59,"endTime":1876.85,"body":"God has to give us on the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1875.59,"endTime":1876.85,"body":"subject."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1876.88,"endTime":1877.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1877.63,"endTime":1879.64,"body":"And so I think as long as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1877.63,"endTime":1879.64,"body":"we're like, looking for further"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1879.64,"endTime":1882.34,"body":"light and knowledge, like we're,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1879.64,"endTime":1882.34,"body":"we're good. As long as we're not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1882.34,"endTime":1883.63,"body":"like telling God what to tell"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1882.34,"endTime":1883.63,"body":"us."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1883.66,"endTime":1885.67,"body":"I can't believe you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1883.66,"endTime":1885.67,"body":"just let me muddle through like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1885.88,"endTime":1888.85,"body":"three minutes of weeds. And you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1885.88,"endTime":1888.85,"body":"were just like, there is further"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1888.85,"endTime":1892.9,"body":"light and knowledge for us. Yes,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1888.85,"endTime":1892.9,"body":"yes. That Yeah, that's the one."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1893.89,"endTime":1895.72,"body":"Because like, obviously,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1893.89,"endTime":1895.72,"body":"like, this is like, we don't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1895.72,"endTime":1897.85,"body":"know everything. And you I think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1895.72,"endTime":1897.85,"body":"about like the beautiful"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1897.85,"endTime":1900.4,"body":"doctrines we have about like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1897.85,"endTime":1900.4,"body":"children who die when they're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1900.43,"endTime":1903.13,"body":"like when they're infants, which"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1900.43,"endTime":1903.13,"body":"is like such a terrible tragedy"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1903.13,"endTime":1906.13,"body":"that Joseph Smith and his wife"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1903.13,"endTime":1906.13,"body":"experienced multiple times. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1906.13,"endTime":1908.47,"body":"they were struggling with this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1906.13,"endTime":1908.47,"body":"and trying to like figure things"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1908.47,"endTime":1911.41,"body":"out. And then Joseph got, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1908.47,"endTime":1911.41,"body":"all these beautiful revelations"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1911.53,"endTime":1914.08,"body":"like about that. And I think"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1911.53,"endTime":1914.08,"body":"about how beautiful those"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1914.08,"endTime":1916.72,"body":"revelations were like, like for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1914.08,"endTime":1916.72,"body":"my brother and my sister in law"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1916.72,"endTime":1918.07,"body":"when their baby died."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1918.1,"endTime":1918.52,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1918.55,"endTime":1921.37,"body":"And you know that. That's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1918.55,"endTime":1921.37,"body":"because like, they were actively"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1921.37,"endTime":1922.3,"body":"thinking about this."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1922.33,"endTime":1922.63,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1922.63,"endTime":1924.73,"body":"And you know, the reason I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1922.63,"endTime":1924.73,"body":"said no problem well-defined as"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1924.73,"endTime":1927.16,"body":"a problem half solved, is"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1924.73,"endTime":1927.16,"body":"because I'm not sure enough,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1927.16,"endTime":1930.64,"body":"people have been thinking about"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1927.16,"endTime":1930.64,"body":"how hard it is for gay people to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1930.64,"endTime":1931.78,"body":"realize that they don't fit."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1931.99,"endTime":1932.29,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1932.29,"endTime":1934.84,"body":"Like an eternity like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1932.29,"endTime":1934.84,"body":"like, we don't fit. Like they"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1934.84,"endTime":1937.06,"body":"have, no one has figured out how"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1934.84,"endTime":1937.06,"body":"we fit except that we change our"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1937.06,"endTime":1941.89,"body":"orientation. And, and I'm at a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1937.06,"endTime":1941.89,"body":"place spiritually and maturation"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1941.89,"endTime":1945.28,"body":"wise, where I'm okay, not"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1941.89,"endTime":1945.28,"body":"knowing. Like I'm okay with an"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1945.28,"endTime":1948.58,"body":"ambiguous eternity. And a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1945.28,"endTime":1948.58,"body":"people aren't there."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1948.61,"endTime":1949.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1949.06,"endTime":1951.1,"body":"And I wasn't there for a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1949.06,"endTime":1951.1,"body":"long time. And it just caused a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1951.1,"endTime":1953.44,"body":"lot of pain and heartache. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1951.1,"endTime":1953.44,"body":"Charlie, honestly, it sounds"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1953.44,"endTime":1955.36,"body":"like you're not at a place where"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1953.44,"endTime":1955.36,"body":"you're okay with ambiguity with"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1955.36,"endTime":1957.73,"body":"that, either. You've decided,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1955.36,"endTime":1957.73,"body":"like you're at a place like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1957.73,"endTime":1959.53,"body":"right now you're settled that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1957.73,"endTime":1959.53,"body":"you're going to be gay in the in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1959.53,"endTime":1960.13,"body":"the next life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1960.55,"endTime":1964.51,"body":"I think so. Yeah. But"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1960.55,"endTime":1964.51,"body":"that became because I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1964.78,"endTime":1968.02,"body":"thinking about it. I was"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1964.78,"endTime":1968.02,"body":"occupied by it. And like you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1968.02,"endTime":1969.94,"body":"were saying, I was thinking"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1968.02,"endTime":1969.94,"body":"about it so much, and putting a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1969.94,"endTime":1971.89,"body":"lot of effort into figuring it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1969.94,"endTime":1971.89,"body":"out for me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1971.95,"endTime":1972.4,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1972.0,"endTime":1975.15,"body":"Yeah. And I think that the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":1972.0,"endTime":1975.15,"body":"church as a whole needs to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1972.49,"endTime":1972.94,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1975.15,"endTime":1978.66,"body":"doing more effort this way. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1975.15,"endTime":1978.66,"body":"gave a like a training on"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1978.66,"endTime":1982.35,"body":"ministering to LGBTQ Latter-day"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1978.66,"endTime":1982.35,"body":"Saints a couple years ago. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1982.38,"endTime":1985.02,"body":"during the Q\u0026A, this guy raised"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1982.38,"endTime":1985.02,"body":"his hand, this was actually this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1985.02,"endTime":1988.32,"body":"last year. Well, it was right"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1985.02,"endTime":1988.32,"body":"before the pandemic. And this"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1988.32,"endTime":1990.66,"body":"guy raised his hand, this is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1988.32,"endTime":1990.66,"body":"exactly what he said, \"Sorry to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1990.66,"endTime":1993.78,"body":"ask you a gotcha question, but"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1990.66,"endTime":1993.78,"body":"isn't the atonement all about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1993.78,"endTime":1996.48,"body":"change? And shouldn't you be,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1993.78,"endTime":1996.48,"body":"shouldn't the atonement be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1996.48,"endTime":1999.09,"body":"changing your orientation?\" I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1996.48,"endTime":1999.09,"body":"told him a lot of the things"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1999.09,"endTime":2001.1,"body":"I've said today, you know, it's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":1999.09,"endTime":2001.1,"body":"not about being gay or straight"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2001.1,"endTime":2004.07,"body":"it's about becoming like Jesus."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2001.1,"endTime":2004.07,"body":"And but, you know, I think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2004.07,"endTime":2006.23,"body":"that's just how so many people,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2004.07,"endTime":2006.23,"body":"to so many people it's been"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2006.23,"endTime":2009.65,"body":"figured out. Like, this is a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2006.23,"endTime":2009.65,"body":"problem that will get fixed."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2009.68,"endTime":2011.21,"body":"Well, to the people"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2009.68,"endTime":2011.21,"body":"that it's figured out for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2011.21,"endTime":2013.91,"body":"they're not the ones who are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2011.21,"endTime":2013.91,"body":"affected by it. The ones who are"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2013.91,"endTime":2017.24,"body":"affected by it are being ravaged"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2013.91,"endTime":2017.24,"body":"spiritually."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2017.33,"endTime":2017.75,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2018.02,"endTime":2020.9,"body":"Because people have it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2018.02,"endTime":2020.9,"body":"figured out that done. And"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2020.9,"endTime":2023.87,"body":"that's why, like, the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2020.9,"endTime":2023.87,"body":"credibility that I gave us at"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2023.87,"endTime":2026.45,"body":"the beginning of this episode"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2023.87,"endTime":2026.45,"body":"was people who have been through"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2026.45,"endTime":2029.24,"body":"this and like, we have to put"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2026.45,"endTime":2029.24,"body":"stock in that credibility,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2029.24,"endTime":2032.33,"body":"because, like, who's gonna know"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2029.24,"endTime":2032.33,"body":"whether God will change"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2032.33,"endTime":2035.87,"body":"someone's orientation but the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2032.33,"endTime":2035.87,"body":"person who has been trying?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2035.93,"endTime":2036.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2036.53,"endTime":2037.04,"body":"You know?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2037.19,"endTime":2038.6,"body":"Can I define one more"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2037.19,"endTime":2038.6,"body":"problem?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2038.6,"endTime":2038.99,"body":"Please."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2039.02,"endTime":2041.3,"body":"So the problem for me, I've"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2039.02,"endTime":2041.3,"body":"seen this happen in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2041.3,"endTime":2043.55,"body":"other people's lives, is once I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2041.3,"endTime":2043.55,"body":"got to a place where like, felt"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2043.55,"endTime":2046.58,"body":"settled about my orientation, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2043.55,"endTime":2046.58,"body":"was like, I am done with this"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2046.58,"endTime":2048.59,"body":"church, because they don't have"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2046.58,"endTime":2048.59,"body":"a place for me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2048.62,"endTime":2049.01,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2049.07,"endTime":2051.68,"body":"And that's, that was the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2049.07,"endTime":2051.68,"body":"time when I was like, out. I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2051.68,"endTime":2054.32,"body":"ready, I was ready to leave. I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2051.68,"endTime":2054.32,"body":"didn't leave but that's what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2054.32,"endTime":2054.83,"body":"happened."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2055.1,"endTime":2055.85,"body":"Huge problem."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2055.87,"endTime":2057.13,"body":"And, and I see that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2055.87,"endTime":2057.13,"body":"happening all the time. Like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2057.16,"endTime":2059.86,"body":"when someone learns to like, be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2057.16,"endTime":2059.86,"body":"okay with their orientation and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2059.86,"endTime":2063.25,"body":"like, not hate themselves for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2059.86,"endTime":2063.25,"body":"it, then they're out. It doesn't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2063.25,"endTime":2066.76,"body":"happen with everybody, but I see"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2063.25,"endTime":2066.76,"body":"it happen a lot. And that's a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2066.76,"endTime":2069.94,"body":"problem. And if we can define"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2066.76,"endTime":2069.94,"body":"that problem a little more then"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2069.94,"endTime":2071.2,"body":"maybe we can start solving it."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2071.56,"endTime":2075.25,"body":"I also think that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2071.56,"endTime":2075.25,"body":"sometimes the answer that I've"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2075.25,"endTime":2080.41,"body":"gotten is like, \"Well, God loves"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2075.25,"endTime":2080.41,"body":"you and I love you.\" I'm like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2086.08,"body":"\"Okay, cool.\" You, you know,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2081.22,"endTime":2086.08,"body":"which I, which is a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2086.08,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"sentiment but like you were"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2086.08,"endTime":2088.54,"body":"saying that there has to be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2088.54,"endTime":2089.92,"body":"like, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2090.16,"endTime":2092.77,"body":"Yeah, you know, I, I hear"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2090.16,"endTime":2092.77,"body":"like church leaders say like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2092.77,"endTime":2095.23,"body":"really beautiful things like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2092.77,"endTime":2095.23,"body":"like, \"To our LGBTQ brothers and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2095.23,"endTime":2098.11,"body":"sisters, like stay faithful."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2095.23,"endTime":2098.11,"body":"Keep your covenants and all the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2098.11,"endTime":2100.69,"body":"blessings God has prepared for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2098.11,"endTime":2100.69,"body":"everyone else like will be yours"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2100.69,"endTime":2103.21,"body":"one day.\" And when I hear that,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2100.69,"endTime":2103.21,"body":"I don't know what they're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2103.21,"endTime":2105.73,"body":"thinking, but I hear them"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2103.21,"endTime":2105.73,"body":"saying, \"You know, at some"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2105.73,"endTime":2107.77,"body":"future date you'll be able to be"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2105.73,"endTime":2107.77,"body":"married to an opposite sex"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2107.77,"endTime":2108.76,"body":"spouse for eternity.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2110.23,"endTime":2111.79,"body":"Well, that might be"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2110.23,"endTime":2111.79,"body":"just when you're interpreting it"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2111.79,"endTime":2112.21,"body":"as well."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2112.24,"endTime":2113.44,"body":"It could be. Like, I don't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2112.24,"endTime":2113.44,"body":"know what they mean."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2113.44,"endTime":2115.0,"body":"But how else are we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2113.44,"endTime":2115.0,"body":"supposed to interpret it? When"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2115.0,"endTime":2117.22,"body":"that's what's been fed to us our"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2115.0,"endTime":2117.22,"body":"entire lives?"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2117.0,"endTime":2119.61,"body":"That's what people tell me."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2117.0,"endTime":2119.61,"body":"They like, they tell me like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2119.64,"endTime":2122.01,"body":"like, \"Ben you just be faithful,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2119.64,"endTime":2122.01,"body":"and you'll be married to a woman"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2122.01,"endTime":2122.61,"body":"for eternity.\""},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2122.7,"endTime":2125.31,"body":"I like, like, you tell"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2122.7,"endTime":2125.31,"body":"that to me and I'm like, I do"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2125.31,"endTime":2129.39,"body":"not want that. And so again, and"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2125.31,"endTime":2129.39,"body":"I don't know, I'm not trying to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2129.39,"endTime":2132.54,"body":"like rock people's worlds here."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2129.39,"endTime":2132.54,"body":"But it is, it rocked mine"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2132.54,"endTime":2135.24,"body":"realizing that. Like, am I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2132.54,"endTime":2135.24,"body":"working towards an exaltation"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2135.24,"endTime":2138.33,"body":"that I have, I want no part of?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2135.24,"endTime":2138.33,"body":"Like you like, you have to like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2138.33,"endTime":2140.73,"body":"think critically about this. It"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2138.33,"endTime":2140.73,"body":"gets complex."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2140.76,"endTime":2143.07,"body":"Yeah. And I remember like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2140.76,"endTime":2143.07,"body":"having that same thought process"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2143.07,"endTime":2145.26,"body":"where I'm like, do I even want"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2143.07,"endTime":2145.26,"body":"to go to heaven?"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2145.54,"endTime":2149.17,"body":"And then in that case,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2145.54,"endTime":2149.17,"body":"it's like, well, cool. Like, who"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2149.17,"endTime":2151.09,"body":"cares if I break my covenants,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2149.17,"endTime":2151.09,"body":"because that's an end goal that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2151.09,"endTime":2154.27,"body":"I don't want anyway. So, so I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2151.09,"endTime":2154.27,"body":"feel like that's why that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2154.27,"endTime":2157.33,"body":"happens, Ben. That's why when"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2154.27,"endTime":2157.33,"body":"you, when you figure out, when"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2157.33,"endTime":2159.61,"body":"you be, accept yourself, it's so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2157.33,"endTime":2159.61,"body":"easy to leave the church because"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2159.61,"endTime":2162.73,"body":"like, \"A\" there's not a place"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2159.61,"endTime":2162.73,"body":"for you and \"B\" you don't want"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2162.73,"endTime":2165.79,"body":"what they're trying to sell. You"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2162.73,"endTime":2165.79,"body":"know? I don't want to make that"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2165.79,"endTime":2168.94,"body":"seem like I don't want that,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2165.79,"endTime":2168.94,"body":"like I definitely do, but like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2169.24,"endTime":2173.11,"body":"just my view has been expanded"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2169.24,"endTime":2173.11,"body":"of what that could potentially"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2173.11,"endTime":2176.68,"body":"look like for me. And that is"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2173.11,"endTime":2176.68,"body":"something like I want to keep my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2176.68,"endTime":2179.59,"body":"covenants and stay close to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2176.68,"endTime":2179.59,"body":"Christ and move towards a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2179.59,"endTime":2184.33,"body":"heavenly future. I just wish"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2179.59,"endTime":2184.33,"body":"more people would think about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2184.33,"endTime":2188.77,"body":"this in a way that doesn't have"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2184.33,"endTime":2188.77,"body":"it all figured out. And that we"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2188.77,"endTime":2190.33,"body":"can get some better information."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2190.36,"endTime":2193.39,"body":"Yeah, I agree. You know, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2190.36,"endTime":2193.39,"body":"told the story, you know, too"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2193.39,"endTime":2195.4,"body":"many times about, you know, my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2193.39,"endTime":2195.4,"body":"friends Kevin and Allison"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2195.4,"endTime":2197.59,"body":"getting, getting sealed, like"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2195.4,"endTime":2197.59,"body":"the, the spiritual experience"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2197.59,"endTime":2199.72,"body":"that I had there when, like, I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2197.59,"endTime":2199.72,"body":"was about ready to leave the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2199.72,"endTime":2202.36,"body":"church and, and while I was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2199.72,"endTime":2202.36,"body":"watching them get sealed, I just"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2202.36,"endTime":2204.7,"body":"like, felt the strong impression"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2202.36,"endTime":2204.7,"body":"that like, no matter what"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2204.7,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"happened, I needed to be able to"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2204.7,"endTime":2207.07,"body":"be in that place with those"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2207.07,"endTime":2209.71,"body":"people forever. And you know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2207.07,"endTime":2209.71,"body":"Kevin and Allison, like, they're"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2209.71,"endTime":2213.85,"body":"my family. And they're like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2209.71,"endTime":2213.85,"body":"their families are my family."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2214.09,"endTime":2216.79,"body":"And like, the thing that God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2214.09,"endTime":2216.79,"body":"told me that like, kept me in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2216.79,"endTime":2218.98,"body":"the church was like, these"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2216.79,"endTime":2218.98,"body":"relationships with these people"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2218.98,"endTime":2222.1,"body":"are supposed to be eternal. And"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2218.98,"endTime":2222.1,"body":"so even though I don't like know"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2222.1,"endTime":2225.37,"body":"what exhaltation is gonna look"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2222.1,"endTime":2225.37,"body":"like, I know who I want to be in"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2225.37,"endTime":2228.43,"body":"heaven with. And like, I know,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2225.37,"endTime":2228.43,"body":"the relationships I have that I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2228.43,"endTime":2231.61,"body":"want to be eternal. And I want"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2228.43,"endTime":2231.61,"body":"to live my life in such a way"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2231.61,"endTime":2233.92,"body":"that these people that I care"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2231.61,"endTime":2233.92,"body":"about now are going to be, you"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2233.92,"endTime":2235.87,"body":"know, part of me forever."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2236.41,"endTime":2239.29,"body":"And I would say, I also"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2236.41,"endTime":2239.29,"body":"want to live a fruitful life on"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2239.29,"endTime":2244.39,"body":"Earth, that allows me to serve"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2239.29,"endTime":2244.39,"body":"and grow and isn't based on some"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2244.39,"endTime":2248.23,"body":"sort of belief that part of me"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2244.39,"endTime":2248.23,"body":"is disgusting and wrong. Like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2248.23,"endTime":2252.04,"body":"I've, I'm so much happier and so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2248.23,"endTime":2252.04,"body":"much better since I've been able"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2252.04,"endTime":2255.43,"body":"to be okay with, with who I am."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2255.52,"endTime":2258.43,"body":"Yeah. You know, I kind of"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2255.52,"endTime":2258.43,"body":"want to change the question for"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2258.43,"endTime":2259.0,"body":"this episode."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2259.27,"endTime":2259.45,"body":"Change it."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2259.274,"endTime":2260.954,"body":"Instead of like, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2259.274,"endTime":2260.954,"body":"like, \"Will God change"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2260.954,"endTime":2263.384,"body":"orientation?\" I think the better"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2260.954,"endTime":2263.384,"body":"question is, like, \"Will God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2263.384,"endTime":2266.924,"body":"make me like Jesus?\" And like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2263.384,"endTime":2266.924,"body":"for me, it has been so much more"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2266.924,"endTime":2270.554,"body":"fruitful to try and think of,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2266.924,"endTime":2270.554,"body":"\"Okay, I don't want to focus on"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2270.554,"endTime":2273.224,"body":"whether I'm going to marry a"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2270.554,"endTime":2273.224,"body":"person. I don't wanna focus on"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2273.224,"endTime":2276.314,"body":"like, that. I want to focus on"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2273.224,"endTime":2276.314,"body":"like, Who am I going to become?\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2276.764,"endTime":2279.404,"body":"And as I've like, changed my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2276.764,"endTime":2279.404,"body":"focus to like, developing"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2279.434,"endTime":2282.824,"body":"Christ-like attributes and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2279.434,"endTime":2282.824,"body":"acting like the Savior would and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2282.824,"endTime":2285.344,"body":"doing what he would do like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2282.824,"endTime":2285.344,"body":"that is what has made my life"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2285.344,"endTime":2288.014,"body":"fruitful. Like, for me, like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2285.344,"endTime":2288.014,"body":"yes, it was incredibly important"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2288.014,"endTime":2290.684,"body":"to like, stop hating myself"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2288.014,"endTime":2290.684,"body":"because of my orientation. But"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2290.684,"endTime":2293.144,"body":"the thing that like, really did"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2290.684,"endTime":2293.144,"body":"it for me, was being like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2293.594,"endTime":2295.784,"body":"\"Okay, this is this is the"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2293.594,"endTime":2295.784,"body":"structure of my life right now."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2295.874,"endTime":2298.994,"body":"This is what my life like, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2295.874,"endTime":2298.994,"body":"not going to marry a woman that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2298.994,"endTime":2303.194,"body":"just isn't gonna work. But I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2298.994,"endTime":2303.194,"body":"gonna do the best I can with"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2300.67,"endTime":2325.63,"body":"But you are so"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2300.67,"endTime":2325.63,"body":"Pollyanna. It's amazing. As you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2303.194,"endTime":2305.414,"body":"what I got. And I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2303.194,"endTime":2305.414,"body":"become like Jesus while I do"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2305.414,"endTime":2308.774,"body":"that.\" And that's when I started"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2305.414,"endTime":2308.774,"body":"to thrive. And like, my life has"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2308.774,"endTime":2313.454,"body":"been so good ever since. And,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2308.774,"endTime":2313.454,"body":"like, I've really loved my life,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2313.604,"endTime":2317.144,"body":"like so much. I know what I said"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2313.604,"endTime":2317.144,"body":"just now might sound a little"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2317.144,"endTime":2318.494,"body":"pollyannish. But like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2325.63,"endTime":2328.06,"body":"were saying that I was like,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2325.63,"endTime":2328.06,"body":"\"Ben, that's the perfect word"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2328.06,"endTime":2330.22,"body":"for what I was thinking as you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2328.06,"endTime":2330.22,"body":"said it.\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2331.57,"endTime":2334.57,"body":"But like, it's still true."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2331.57,"endTime":2334.57,"body":"You know? Like, that's, it's"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2334.57,"endTime":2336.01,"body":"still accurately describes my"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2334.57,"endTime":2336.01,"body":"life."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2336.07,"endTime":2336.49,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2338.98,"body":"And no one has to like that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2336.52,"endTime":2338.98,"body":"or do that. But like, that's,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2339.07,"endTime":2340.45,"body":"that's true to me."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2340.48,"endTime":2342.37,"body":"Yeah. Well, when I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2340.48,"endTime":2342.37,"body":"think of this question, the"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2342.37,"endTime":2345.64,"body":"original question, not the one"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2342.37,"endTime":2345.64,"body":"that you made, Pollyanna, which"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2345.64,"endTime":2347.32,"body":"was good. Yeah, that was a"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2345.64,"endTime":2347.32,"body":"beautiful thing. Thank you for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2347.32,"endTime":2350.38,"body":"sharing that. I think, \"Will,"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2347.32,"endTime":2350.38,"body":"God change my orientation?\""},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2350.38,"endTime":2351.25,"body":"Ben that question was"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2350.38,"endTime":2351.25,"body":"terrible."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2353.26,"endTime":2356.14,"body":"Will God change my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2353.26,"endTime":2356.14,"body":"orientation. No, I really don't"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2356.14,"endTime":2359.92,"body":"believe so. And, and that's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2356.14,"endTime":2359.92,"body":"like, a, that's a cool answer"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2359.92,"endTime":2362.26,"body":"that I know something more about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2359.92,"endTime":2362.26,"body":"myself. And I can move forward."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2362.26,"endTime":2366.07,"body":"And I feel just more hopeful"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2362.26,"endTime":2366.07,"body":"with that, you know, and so I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2366.07,"endTime":2368.47,"body":"can't say what's gonna happen"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2366.07,"endTime":2368.47,"body":"for anyone else. But I know for"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2368.47,"endTime":2372.46,"body":"me, this is what I've received."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2368.47,"endTime":2372.46,"body":"And I am happy, like, I'm moving"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2372.46,"endTime":2374.83,"body":"forward with that. And I like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2372.46,"endTime":2374.83,"body":"where I'm going."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2374.89,"endTime":2376.87,"body":"Yeah. And when I asked"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2374.89,"endTime":2376.87,"body":"like, when I asked myself that"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2376.87,"endTime":2379.39,"body":"question, like, Will God change"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2376.87,"endTime":2379.39,"body":"my orientation? I think like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2379.42,"endTime":2383.26,"body":"right now, that is not important"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2379.42,"endTime":2383.26,"body":"for me to know. Like, I am done"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2383.26,"endTime":2385.84,"body":"asking that question because it"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2383.26,"endTime":2385.84,"body":"was killing me. But like, if I'm"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2388.78,"body":"going to like project what I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2385.84,"endTime":2388.78,"body":"imagine I don't think so. Like I"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2388.78,"endTime":2391.24,"body":"don't I don't think he's going"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2388.78,"endTime":2391.24,"body":"to even in the eternities. But,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2391.27,"endTime":2395.11,"body":"but I don't know. And I'm open"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2391.27,"endTime":2395.11,"body":"to see like, what blessings God"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2395.11,"endTime":2397.78,"body":"has for me that I don't can't"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2395.11,"endTime":2397.78,"body":"even imagine yet."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2398.08,"endTime":2401.83,"body":"Thank you. Ben as we're"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2398.08,"endTime":2401.83,"body":"wrapping things up, I want to"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2401.83,"endTime":2404.11,"body":"call back something you said"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2401.83,"endTime":2404.11,"body":"that you like, reserve the right"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2404.11,"endTime":2406.45,"body":"to change your mind. And I think"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2404.11,"endTime":2406.45,"body":"that's so important. That's"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2406.45,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"healthy. And I also want to like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2406.45,"endTime":2410.02,"body":"claim that right for myself. I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2410.02,"endTime":2413.53,"body":"reserve the right to change my"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2410.02,"endTime":2413.53,"body":"mind. But thank you for like, I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2413.56,"endTime":2417.58,"body":"really liked this discussion"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2413.56,"endTime":2417.58,"body":"between us. Because I feel like"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2417.58,"endTime":2420.55,"body":"I know more about you. And I"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2417.58,"endTime":2420.55,"body":"also feel like I know more about"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2420.55,"endTime":2421.06,"body":"myself."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2421.12,"endTime":2423.67,"body":"Yeah, definitely. And like,"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2421.12,"endTime":2423.67,"body":"this is where I'm at at 37 and"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2423.67,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"where you're at at 27. And who"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2423.67,"endTime":2427.03,"body":"knows where I'll be at 47."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2426.67,"endTime":2428.23,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, that's great."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2428.23,"endTime":2429.21,"body":"Hopefully I'm still good looking."},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2429.76,"endTime":2435.94,"body":"Silver fox. Thank you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2429.76,"endTime":2435.94,"body":"for joining us today. If you"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2435.94,"endTime":2437.95,"body":"have enjoyed this or other"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2435.94,"endTime":2437.95,"body":"episodes, please consider"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2437.95,"endTime":2440.53,"body":"leaving a review following us on"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2437.95,"endTime":2440.53,"body":"Instagram or Facebook @q"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2440.53,"endTime":2443.08,"body":"estionsfromthecloset, or shar"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2440.53,"endTime":2443.08,"body":"ng this podcast with some"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2443.08,"endTime":2445.99,"body":"ne you love. And as always, plea"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2443.08,"endTime":2445.99,"body":"e remember that we do not repr"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2445.99,"endTime":2448.48,"body":"sent the Church of Jesus Chri"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2445.99,"endTime":2448.48,"body":"t of Latter-day Saints or Brig"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2448.48,"endTime":2451.33,"body":"am Young University. We are not"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2448.48,"endTime":2451.33,"body":"rying to be prescriptive or tell"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2451.33,"endTime":2453.52,"body":"anyone what to think or what"},{"speaker":"Charlie","startTime":2451.33,"endTime":2453.52,"body":"to do."},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2453.52,"endTime":2455.74,"body":"You heard two perspectives"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2453.52,"endTime":2455.74,"body":"and there are many, man"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2455.74,"endTime":2457.75,"body":"more. We encourage you to liste"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2455.74,"endTime":2457.75,"body":"to other voices and hear a wi"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2457.75,"endTime":2460.54,"body":"e variety of experiences. If"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2457.75,"endTime":2460.54,"body":"you would like to submit a q"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2460.54,"endTime":2463.09,"body":"estion or share a comment abo"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2460.54,"endTime":2463.09,"body":"t today's episode even e"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2463.09,"endTime":2465.67,"body":"ail us at question"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2463.09,"endTime":2465.67,"body":"fromthecloset@gmail.com. Unt"},{"speaker":"Ben","startTime":2465.67,"endTime":2466.0,"body":"l nex"}]}