Transforming Photography: Debbie Gainsford on Digital Imaging and Small Business Success

Curious about how digital imaging transformed an entire industry? Join us for an insightful conversation with Debbie Gainsford, a veteran small business consultant and coach from Australia, as she recounts her pioneering days at Getty Images during their revolutionary shift to a fully digital platform. Gain a unique perspective on the early challenges of digital file formats and the intricate world of digital rights, as Gainsford walks us through her experiences educating clients and adapting to a rapidly evolving market. Her stories offer an educational glimpse into how far the world of photography and marketing has come over the past 25 years.

In our discussion, we tackle the modern-day trials small business owners face, especially in marketing and finance, and how to navigate them successfully. Gainsford shares invaluable strategies for overcoming feelings of overwhelm and the pitfalls of constantly comparing oneself to competitors. Learn about the vital importance of clear communication on social media, setting up a Google Business profile, and nurturing customer relationships through community engagement and advocacy. With actionable advice on leveraging email newsletters and trade shows to foster loyalty, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for anyone looking to thrive in today's competitive business landscape.

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Transcript

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The Evolution of Digital Imaging

Erin Manning 0:12

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast , the photo imaging industry's leading news source . Here's your host , Gary Pageau .

Gary Pageau 0:28

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast . I'm your host , Gary Pageau , and today we're joined by a small business consultant and coach named Debbie Gainsford , who's coming to us from Australia . Debbie , that's a long way away from here . Tell me about Australia .

Debbie Gainsford 0:45

Well , it's one . It is a long way away from you I'm in the future now and from you , and it's a really hot and sunny day here today in Australia , so it's a really lovely day .

Gary Pageau 0:57

So before we get into the journey of you know kind of the small business consulting and coaching tips that I want you to share , you actually got your start in the imaging industry . Can you talk a little bit about your experience on starting at Getty Images on the day they went digital ? How did that happen ?

Debbie Gainsford 1:16

Yeah , so yeah , really interesting . I had absolutely no idea who Getty Images was or what they did when I interviewed for the job . I just knew that it was great people and it had something to do with photography . So I was super excited to join the business and I joined from a marketing perspective um , that's where I kicked off my marketing career and , yeah , I joined the . You know the day they went 100% digital , um , which is obviously an exciting time in the industry . It was a very long time ago . It was almost 25 years ago now .

Gary Pageau 1:52

I remember those days .

Debbie Gainsford 1:53

Yes , yeah , exactly exactly all the days before Facebook and you know Google and things like that as well almost 25 years ago now . I remember those days yes , yeah , exactly exactly All the days before Facebook and you know Google and things like that as well . But , yeah , like super , super interesting company which has obviously grown hugely since I've been there . So they had 2 million images on their website , I think at the very beginning , when they did go 100% digital , and now you know the influx of images that they have and how that's grown . You know is incredible , and I was very fortunate to work with photographers who have now gone on to like win world press . You know photo awards and other sort of leading awards as well . So , yeah , super lucky to kickstart my marketing career at what is now like a world leading company from a photography perspective .

Gary Pageau 2:36

Just I'm curious , you know back then , what were they marketing , right ? I mean in terms of were you trying to reach out to get photographers to be clients ? Were you trying to reach ad agencies to get their stuff from Getty ? Who were you marketing to ?

Debbie Gainsford 2:51

Yeah , so we were marketing to ad agencies to . Yeah , so we were marketing to ad agencies . They were , you know , key customers of ours a lot from like a stock photography perspective . That was like the core of what the business was . And we had an editorial team as well , so photographers that were out there shooting a lot of news and sport primarily sport and entertainment as well . So dealing with in that in those days it was still like print magazines and print newspapers and you know getting the you know , the latest images from , you know whatever event had happened that day or that weekend in the press . And you know we're in a really fortunate position as well , especially as the company was growing that photographers wanted to work at Getty . So there was like quite a strict you know stringent application process and you know they're in a position where they were hiring , you know the best of the best that were out there . So , yeah , so that was good . So not so much marketing to photographers but marketing to people who have the need for the imagery in their business .

Gary Pageau 3:54

I mean , obviously that's a visual business business and it's a business that you know consumes a lot of images . So was it really hard ? I mean , what was the ? Well , I mean I'm just curious , what were the some of the messaging you were you trying to get to to ad agencies , cause clearly you know they were using up a lot of images ?

Debbie Gainsford 4:13

Yeah , yeah , absolutely . And in those days , you know they were using up a lot of images . Yeah , yeah , absolutely . And in those days , you know we were still sending out books filled with photos . So , from a stock image perspective , you know it was literally . You know something that looked , you know , almost as thick as you know , something like a Bible , not bigger , just full of photos with the image numbers on it for people to select . And you know , know , really educating them around the rights when it comes to photography as well , like royalty free and rights managed and how to license an image . Um , and then , as the website grew , you know we had things like keyword guides that were then educating customers on how to search for an image themselves in the website . So you know , back in those days when search wasn't second nature , it was really educating people on how to access . You know the imagery themselves and you know file sizes , file quality . You know how to download images off the web , how to use digital files .

Gary Pageau 5:11

That was like a big part of like those old days of digitizing and file formats were like a big deal back then because exactly there was a ton of them that were incompatible with different software and yeah , and they were huge .

Debbie Gainsford 5:25

You know the , the files themselves , and you need to remember that . You know computers didn't have the capacity to like download those huge big files to , you know , start off with as well , so we'd also send out . You know computers didn't have the capacity to like download those huge big files to , you know , start off with as well , so we'd also send out . You know , images that still be on disk , so we'd send them out on CDs and things like that too , for people to then be able to to pick up and grab and use . So yeah , it was a . It was a whole different time . That feels like a million years ago , but it wasn't actually that long ago .

Gary Pageau 5:52

It seems kind of quaint if you think about it . You know , because you're right . I mean , you've really touched on an interesting point right Right now people's first inclination is to do search right , and they've kind of trained themselves because they know how to look for keywords and search and all that now , because of Google and Bing and whatnot , have trained them to do that . But back then you as the content writer had to provide a lot of help for that .

Debbie Gainsford 6:16

Yeah , yeah , and it's crazy . I mean I was actually going through some of my old you know material the other day because it had been in storage because I'd recently moved back to Australia from the UK and so I was looking through all the boxes and I came across a load of my old Getty you know marketing material and what we used to send out . And you know I came across the physical keyword guide , which was a little booklet that we sent to people to have sitting on their desk that gave them hints and tips of like what keywords to use to you know , find the imagery that they want . You know to think about doing that today , helping people search in that way . It seems so antiquated , but it was such a big deal back there to sort of educate around how to use the website and how to access what they , I would imagine and from there .

Gary Pageau 7:04

From there you moved on , and I don't want to dwell on Getty stuff because that was a long time ago , but that is sort of an industry thing that I felt was interesting to mention was that ?

Gary Pageau 7:18

Because sort of all those of us who have lived through the analog to digital transition and then you know , now digital web and now web to AI or whatever that is , you know we're all kind of used to this in the imaging business and it's just interesting sometimes to look back and kind of think what were we thinking back then , right , but let's talk a little bit about what's happening now in the future , right ?

Navigating Marketing Challenges for Small Businesses

Gary Pageau 7:41

So you're a small business consultant and a coach and I want to talk a lot about the people you work with , what their concerns are , because today's kind of a difficult environment . You know you're in Australia and I'm in the United States , so I'm sure things are slightly different , but there's still a lot of global concerns , a lot of uncertainty now , and I think there will be throughout the course of this year . And so when you're talking to clients , what are they expressing to you ?

Debbie Gainsford 8:10

Yeah , so there are a few things and I really focus in on the marketing side of the business and you know , for for them at the moment one can be a lot of overwhelm and comparison that's happening out there at the moment , um , but the other side of things too is that you know , as you mentioned , the economy globally is not fantastic and a lot of businesses are suffering . So you know it's having to think of new ways to engage with clients , new ways to bring new people into the business and to keep revenue going . And you know , for some people they haven't necessarily had to think about that before like their business is always kind of run on autopilot and all of a sudden you know it's , you know there are some rocky patches happening and they're having to , you know , get creative or think differently . And you know that's that's interesting because there are common themes , but then there is also things that are specific to individual industries as well .

Gary Pageau 9:11

So most of our listenership , I would say you would call them small to midsize businesses , right yeah , do you see a difference between those business types , or or do you agree with what I see , which sort of like they all kind of have the same problems , just in different levels of magnitude ?

Debbie Gainsford 9:30

yeah , I think I work with a lot of um people who either just run their own business by themselves or they've got like a couple of people that work with them and they're growing and there's some like bigger businesses too . And , yes , like there are common themes there about having the basics and the fundamentals in place , which is it surprises me that it doesn't matter what size the business is .

Debbie Gainsford 9:55

Um , sometimes there are some really basic things lacking , um , but I think for like the sort of really you know micro businesses , where it's a lot smaller , they've got the added , I guess you know challenge that they're having to do everything themselves as well . You know they're an expert at what they do , but they're not a marketing expert , they're not a finance expert , you know . They don't have that background and all those other skills . So they're really looking for the support from people and you know , to be educated and have that knowledge and have like a cheerleader or somebody to hold their hand through it , whereas larger businesses you know , even medium sized businesses can sometimes be in the position to either have a marketing person already in house or they're working with an agency or something like that . So challenge is the same , but the different levels of resources , you know , are definitely there .

Gary Pageau 11:11

You know , I think you've hit an interesting point right . Most people get into a small business because they like to do the thing they're doing , whether it's , you know , photography business , a printing business , a hair salon or whatever but the thing that keeps the business going is all the other stuff that you mentioned that they may not have experience in , have an interest in or have any aptitude in . You know , marketing is an example media relations , which is very important right now , and those kind of things . So is that where you help people is kind of shoring up those things so they can kind of focus on the things that actually they want to do yeah , absolutely .

Debbie Gainsford 11:51

My whole ethos is around like simplifying marketing for people , very much focused on . You're the expert at what you do . I have absolutely no idea about how to run a photography business or a gym or , you know , write a travel blog , whatever is , but I have all of this marketing expertise that I can share with you . That's going to help . And I do that in sort of two different ways . One , I can come in and help from like a strategy and planning perspective and come up with the ideas of how people can build their business and look at what they can do to grow or to retain customers . And then the other side of things is the coaching side of the business , which is really partnering with these small business owners to empower them and you know one , educate them about marketing , but then actually empower them to be able to do the marketing themselves as well .

Debbie Gainsford 12:45

So a lot of that comes down to . You know , confidence and knowledge are the two key areas that I focus on from that perspective and really help , you know , business owners , you know , become more comfortable with marketing so that they feel empowered . To . You know , go out there and do more . That's you know going to help grow their business .

Gary Pageau 13:07

You said something earlier that I made a note on here and I want to bring it back to because I think it gets back to your idea of simplification and I don't know if you intended to say this , if this is a thing , or even if I heard it right , but it was overwhelming comparisons . That stuck out to me because I see that all the time and I think that is something where business owners overall are just you know , they see everyone else doing things and they think they have to do all those things . Can you talk a little bit ?

Debbie Gainsford 13:37

about that and they're comparing themselves to somebody who's been doing it for you know , the last 10 years , and they've got great social media accounts . Their website's incredible and a lot of the time . And what I speak to my customers about is that you know you don't know what resources your competitors have . You know you don't necessarily know what their market budget is or what support they have . And you know , don't focus on what they're doing . Take inspiration from what they're doing . You know there are people out there already doing what you want to do , so you know it can be done like . Be inspired by them , but don't let the fear of somebody else doing it stop you from actually doing what you want to do .

Debbie Gainsford 14:29

And the other key thing that I really focus on with my clients is that you know no two people are the same , so everybody's life experience and business experience is different . So what you bring to the table is different to what your competitors bring to the table , and you know how your customers engage with you . You know you might be the right fit for them and your competitor might not be . So it's about the choice in the marketplace , and so it's getting people to really realize that you know they're unique , they have things they can bring to the table for their customers that their competitors can't , and to focus on their strengths and what makes their business unique and special . That's going to attract customers and have them coming back . And once people really start to understand that , that's when their confidence starts to build as well of like oh okay , I can , I can do this , and like let's look at how we move things forward .

Gary Pageau 15:24

It seems to me it was again back in the prehistoric days and when you were getting images right , right .

Gary Pageau 15:30

The technology world was very different and now it seems a lot of technology is actually built around marketing . It's marketing platforms , it's all of these things to market your business . There's email platforms , there's CRM platforms , there's dropping pixels on people's websites and you know apps and all these things and you know there's . You can advertise within apps and you can do all these various activities and , like you said , it's overwhelming . What are some of the things that a business owner needs to keep in mind as they evaluate some of these things ? Because you know , I run across people all the time where it's like all my customers are TikTok . I got to have TikTok and it's like , well , is that really ? Are they really your customers ? Are they really the people where you actually get a buy from you ? Are they TikTok on ? Are there just a lot of eyeballs there ? How do you coach people with that in mind ? Because you may have someone who says I really need a TikTok .

Debbie Gainsford 16:31

Yeah , and you know there is so much out there that you could be doing and you just don't have the time or resource to do it all . And you know , for me it comes back to understanding , like what you're saying , who your customers are and where they are and what's going to get them to convert . And you know you could have an amazing tick tock account . You could go down that you know route and want to be on there and do the dancing videos or do whatever it is . That's great . You know , I tell my customers if that's what they want to do , you know , fine , go and do that . But actually you need to measure it and you need well , that was the question , right ?

Gary Pageau 17:06

exactly , that's what it gets to and that's it you need to .

Debbie Gainsford 17:09

yeah , sorry .

Gary Pageau 17:10

So no , you know you raise a good point , I want to . So how do you measure some of this stuff ? Is it just traffic ? Is it sales ? I mean , what are ? What do you think is a good metric , for example , for , let's say , a small two person shop who does a TikTok video ? Now , they're not gonna go viral and they're not gonna go , you know , be repeated on a nighttime TV show for a comedy bit or something . Just a normal everyday person doing a business TikTok . What is a reasonable expectation that you would say , yeah , that was worth spending 15 minutes doing ?

Debbie Gainsford 17:44

Yeah , and I you know metrics are great from like traffic and engagement and social media , and you know that's fine and I don't . You know metrics are great from like traffic and engagement and social media . And you know that that's fine , and I don't . You know , I don't give like a number out because it can differ depending on .

Gary Pageau 17:55

Sure , sure , sure .

Debbie Gainsford 17:57

But I think the most basic thing that people can do and it's something that a lot of businesses don't do , you know , and it goes back to the old school way of things , too , is like where did you hear about us ? Of things , too , is like where did you hear about us ? You know . So if you're , if you have an online store and you're getting people to purchase online , you just add that in as a question , especially if you're asking people to register and things like that is you know , how did you hear about us ? And you know it's a great way of you know finding out is your social media actually working ? Is it driving through ? You know new ?

Debbie Gainsford 18:26

new business for you , um , or if you have a physical shop and you're engaging with you know a customer , you know it's having a conversation with them as well .

Debbie Gainsford 18:34

It's like , well , how did you come across this and you know finding that out . The one thing I will caveat that with as well is that where some people can get caught up is you know , we use TikTok as an example is that all of a sudden , people will be saying , oh , I'm getting like all of my business from TikTok and that may be the last place that they've seen you , or maybe the first place that they've seen you , but they're also looking at your website . They're also looking at your reviews online . They're looking at other things as well . So if you invest just in one channel , you're actually going to be leaving money on the table , because people want to know more about you and they want to go to those other places where there's information about you to actually make that informed decision about whether or not they're going to drive or get public transport or walk to your shop , or if they're going to go online and spend their money , you know , with you that way .

Debbie Gainsford 19:29

So it's making sure that you know , you're covering like those key sort of like bases where people are going to interact with you .

Gary Pageau 19:36

You just raised a very good point , because I remember there was a time where you could expect that the average customer consumer needed seven impressions before they would see you . Now , what's that number ? 150 or ?

Debbie Gainsford 19:54

Yeah , I know , like with the scrolling and everything . And you know and that's one of the interesting things I talk to people about as well is , you know there's there can be frustration . Sometimes it's like , well , I've done one social media post , why is my phone ringing ? Why aren't the sales coming in ? And you know , it's about consistency , it's about perseverance , it's about , you know , continuing to say your message . And actually I think it was a manager I had in my Getty Images days that said to me when you're sick of saying your message , that's the point where your customers are just starting to understand it .

Gary Pageau 20:37

Right , which is interesting . I love that . That's a great point because you know , I read a lot of marketing stuff and I'm sure you do , and you see all the stuff and all the awards are the new campaigns and all this stuff . And I was wondering you know these wildly creative commercials ? You're running creative campaigns for creative campaigns for candy bars and phones and all these things . But I think they kind of do that stuff to win awards , not necessarily to sell more candy bars or phones .

Debbie Gainsford 21:00

No , and that's it . And even when I was at Getty we'd have agencies approaching us . I remember at once that you know their whole thing was that they wanted to do a campaign with us so they could enter it into the can lines and it was completely against our branding and what we wanted to do . So we said no . It didn't stop them from continuing to ask us for at least six months . But yeah , a lot of like those big companies , you know they do that shiny advertising . Yes , it drives sales , but a lot of the time it's to win awards so that they can then win new business as well .

Gary Pageau 21:33

So that's , that's interesting Cause , like you said , I think what people , especially small businesses , don't have those resources don't have you know who ? I have to watch every penny because they're trying to keep the doors open . They have to look at as well , which is , you know , businesses not putting their locations on social

Building Customer Relationships for Business Success

Gary Pageau 21:51

media .

Debbie Gainsford 22:12

And so you're doing like all this great social media content , you're engaging with people , and then they want to buy from you , but they don't know where you are , and you know . It's like how do I get to your store ? Or you know where , you know where , you know where is it that I can contact you , and you know . That's like a real basic . Fundamental is like tell people where you are , tell people how to get in touch with you and also like , if you have a physical store , like make sure you've got your address there so that people know how to get to you and what your opening hours are too , because that creates frustration for the consumer if they've engaged with you and then they don't know how to like buy from you you know that's hugely frustrating .

Debbie Gainsford 22:55

So it's those basics and the consistency is so important for business .

Gary Pageau 22:59

Or they assume everyone knows right . I mean you know , I mean that's literally . I think that runs into a lot of the questions that marketers have who run small businesses . Well , they already know where I am right . I've been in the community for 20 years and everyone knows where we are . Well , I guarantee you there's new people coming in the community or some of your customers are dying off or whatever , and you've got to keep reintroducing yourself constantly .

Debbie Gainsford 23:26

A hundred percent and , you know , I had a conversation actually recently with somebody who you know their business . They weren't getting the customers that they needed , like they were a new business in a local area and they were relying really heavily on you know their social media account and also you know local community Facebook groups as well . But if that's all that you're relying on from a marketing perspective , you're not going to get people , and what they were missing was that they didn't have , like you know , their Google business profile set up on Google Maps , which is like the easiest thing to do to show people where you are and you know what you're doing and coming up in search results so people can find you and it's kind of you know people limiting you know the way that you know they're engaging with customers or attracting new customers because they think that people know who they are .

Debbie Gainsford 24:18

But when you think about people who are traveling , you know , either for work or for pleasure , and they may be looking for a business like yours in the area that they're in and they Google and it's like where's you know this company that I'm looking for , this type of business that's near me and if you don't show up on that map , your competitors going to and that's where that money's going .

Gary Pageau 24:39

You know we talked a lot about . You know kind of strategy and tactics , but one of the things that you like to talk about is you know relationships with customers and businesses , because that's really where the magic happens .

Debbie Gainsford 24:54

It is , yeah , and community is such a big part of business and I think you know you can get drawn into like chasing the new and just bringing new people in all the time , but actually it's focusing in on , you know , the customers that you have today as well , and that's , you know , that's where your growth is going to come from too . So if you've got people who are advocates of your business , they're going to talk about you . They're going to refer people to you business . They're going to talk about you . They're going to refer people to you . And so , especially at the moment where times are tough and marketing budgets may not be there , using your existing community is a great way to , one , keep growing your business . But , two , making sure that you're set up for success when people are ready to buy again and they've got money to buy again .

Debbie Gainsford 25:42

So that can be through things .

Debbie Gainsford 25:44

Like you know , making sure that you might have like an email newsletter that goes out to people , where you're constantly engaging with them .

Debbie Gainsford 25:51

If you've got an opportunity and the resources to go to something like a trade show where you're meeting people face to face as well , like that's a great way of like engaging with you , you know , with your audience doing things . If you've got a physical store doing things , like in store , where you're sharing knowledge with people or , you know , helping them connect with other people as well , there's lots of different ways you know to do that and that's so important is to , like , build that trust , make people really engaged with you , know your brand and your business , so they're talking about you to other people when you're not actually there . You know . That's really really key . And community I read something it was at the end of last year saying that 2024 is like the year of community , because we've come out of everything that we've come out of over the last few years and people are wanting to , like you know , re-engage again . People are wanting to , like you know , re-engage again .

Debbie Gainsford 26:44

People are wanting to they're wanting to feel like they're part of something . So if you're in a position where you can also connect your customers together so they're building their own community , that's really special and that's quite a powerful thing that you can do for your local community or for your customers .

Gary Pageau 27:01

So a lot of like photo retailers in our segment you know do workshops , they do photo walks and those kinds of things and you know that's great . The challenge I think for some of them are is , like you know they want to be able to tie like I sold X number of lenses or X number of bags or tripods and what you're saying is that you know there's really more of a halo effect . It's not necessarily a sales event , it's also a marketing event .

Debbie Gainsford 27:27

Exactly so I think , if you're showing your customers that you care about them as people , you care about their interests you know that maybe they're having challenging financial times at the moment so they can't spend with you as much as they'd like to but you still care about them as people and that you're not just interested in the sales that has such a big , you know , knock on effect and thinking about ways that you know you can include your community in different , you know decisions that you're making from a business perspective is you know it's so important , I think , the businesses who are just solely focused on sales and numbers and thinking of their customers as numbers not so great , but thinking of your customers as people , you know that's where you know businesses really thrive and grow , because you're thinking about their wants and needs and how you meet them and solve their pain points .

Debbie Gainsford 28:19

You know they might buy a small value item from you today because that's all they've got the resources to do , but in 12 months time , when they're in a different financial situation , they might come in and buy that really expensive camera that they've had their eye on for like the last 12 or 18 months and they buy it from you because you've been doing all these other things to keep them engaged whilst they're , you know , building up the funds to be able to make that purchase engaged whilst they're , you know , building up the funds to be able to make that purchase .

Gary Pageau 28:46

That makes total sense . So tell me about why someone needs a business coach . Why on earth ? Because that's different than you know , different relationships than what the other kind of consulting you're doing . So what is a business coach and why do you need one ?

Debbie Gainsford 29:03

Yeah . So for me and where I see my customers like really thriving when they work with me , is that one . I'm a trusted sort of soundboard for them . So the great thing about coaching is that it's non judgmental , so I'm not there to judge them or their business decisions . They're making what they've done in the past , whether or not I think it's right or wrong . I'm there to like hold their hand as part of , like their journey that they're going on and , you know , challenge their thinking , getting them to think differently , maybe about you know , a goal or an objective or a challenge that they've got coming and then , working with them to like build that action plan of like well , well , what are those next steps that you're going to take ? And coaching really comes in when we're talking about the overwhelmed before , because it helps break down something that can seem so big and so challenging that people just want to put to the side . And actually working with a coach , you know , helps you break it down into small pieces so that you can actually get to your um , your end . And I'll give you an example of that .

Debbie Gainsford 30:07

Actually , you know , I worked with a client who had some amazing , incredible ideas for her business of what she was wanting , you know , to do , and it was fantastic . And you know she's like but I don't know where to start . Like , what one do I do first ? Like , what action should I take ? And we narrowed that down to you know immediately what she wanted to do was to have a meeting with some of her colleagues to talk about these ideas , to actually engage them in you know the future of the business too .

Debbie Gainsford 30:37

And I was like great , well , you know , have that meeting , when are you going to have the meeting ? She's like oh , and the thought of having the meeting and having to prepare for it was still really overwhelming for her . And so I said well , why don't you just book the meeting in ? Like , can you do that today ? Can you send the calendar invite out to your colleagues today ? And she's like well , yeah , I can do that . And I was like well , great , that's like your first step . You can plan for that meeting in a couple of days time . But actually it's just like starting that momentum and having the obligation going right .

Debbie Gainsford 31:09

Yeah , yeah . And having the person one who's going to help you stay accountable , but two who's invested in your business and wants to see you succeed and grow . However that looks for you know the customer . It doesn't matter what I think what they should be doing it's about . It's about making sure for you know the customer . It doesn't matter what I think what they should be doing . It's about making sure that you know what they're doing is right for them and their business .

Gary Pageau 31:31

That's great . Listen , debbie . Thanks for taking the time to talk to us . Where can people go to get more information about the kind of stuff you do and career coaching ?

Debbie Gainsford 31:42

Sure , so there is a load of resources out there . Obviously , people can visit my website , which is debbygainsfordcom .

Gary Pageau 31:50

Boy , that's really specific branding .

Debbie Gainsford 31:53

Exactly , you can't get it wrong , and I'm on Instagram and Facebook as well , and LinkedIn is Debbie Gainsford Marketing , so , you know , come on , follow me there and connect with me there . And there are a lot of resources out there as well , and there are two that I'll highlight . There is a great company that actually goes in the UK and London , one called Amazing If , who do some great books around careers and career coaching and squiggly careers is their big thing which is fantastic , and there is another one , which is I won't say the first word , but it's the F word , and then it's called being humble and it's all about , like confidence and , you know , building confidence and working with people . So they're two really good resources for people to tap into as well .

Gary Pageau 32:40

Awesome . Well , thanks , debbie . It was great to meet you and hopefully we connect together soon . Absolutely Thanks , so thanks , Debbie .

Debbie Gainsford 32:45

It was great to meet you and hopefully we connect together soon . Absolutely Thanks . So much , Gary .

Erin Manning 32:47

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