Changing landscape of professional photography with Glen A. Clark

Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society talks with Glen  A. Clark, Cr. Photog., F/S-PPC, a longtime professional photography industry veteran. Clark has been on all sides of the business for more than 35 years, focusing on marketing and sales within and for professional photography, imaging, and communications industry initiatives. He has worked as a commercial and portrait/wedding photographer/illustrator, as well as a studio manager and supplier's rep. 

In this episode, Clark shares what has changed in professional photography over three decades, what hasn't changed, and what the enduring principles of the industry are.

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Transcript

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Gary Pageau  0:03  
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're joined by longtime photo industry executive, Glen Clark. Hello, Glenn, how are you today?

Glen Clark  0:16  
I'm doing great today. Thank you for having me on. I appreciate it.

Gary Pageau  0:21  
So you and I have run across each other, like we're seeing before the call in for literally decades running into each other with the various companies you've been associated with. You really been in the industry since the 70s. Correct?

Glen Clark  0:39  
Yeah, that's correct. I graduated from deanza College with a degree in photography in 1972. So you can do the math.

Gary Pageau  0:50  
And then from there, you've worked for a variety of companies in the industry. You know, Burrell marathon press, tap, and then you've kind of concluded your career at bay photo, and you've always been on the professional photography output side, what what drew you to that?

Glen Clark  1:13  
I love of photography, but it really, it goes back to a story and I'll keep it short. I was I graduated from college, and my draft number was two, number two. And I thought if I was going to go into combat situation, I'd rather have a camera than a rifle. I don't know how smart that thinking was. But I I went to deanza College to get a degree in photography, so I'd have a skill. And it just started there. I was photographed weddings to get myself through college. And one thing just led to another and it's been a path I've been on ever since.

Gary Pageau  1:55  
So you've always kind of been in the the wedding portrait space, is that something you just naturally kind of? were drawn to because you're a social person. Or because you didn't it doesn't sound to me like you spend much time in the photojournalism space, or even commercial photography or some of the other areas that were hot at that time.

Glen Clark  2:16  
Well, if I can correct you a little bit, Gary, I spent a number of years in Hollywood working for Easterbrook photography and commercial photography. Okay. Oh, and we did food. We did product, we did celebrities. So I have done both my my I migrated originally portrait and wedding primarily because like I said, I did weddings, putting myself through college. And then I got a job at the old Keith Cole color lab in Redwood City, California, which at the time was a national color lab all across the country. And their core business customers were portrait wedding photographers. So that's what I grew up knowing.

Gary Pageau  3:03  
Right. Now, did you ever get drafted?

Glen Clark  3:07  
I did not. that's a that's a terribly long story in itself. But I, I was having a conversation with the draft board scheduled for the day after the draft ended. So it just sort of came to a conclusion it kind of petered out.

Gary Pageau  3:25  
So it kind of wound down as you as you became eligible for the draft. Okay,

Glen Clark  3:29  
exactly. Right.

Gary Pageau  3:31  
So you've seen a lot of, obviously technological change in the wedding industry. Now what was it like in the 70s to shoot a wedding? Well,

Glen Clark  3:46  
my experience was, that was the boom of 35 millimeter flash on camera. I worked for a real off off brand studio that we did, you know, $99 weddings, and we did like 20 or 30 of them in a weekend. But we it was scripted. And you had a shot list. And the biggest thing in the 70s. And even in the 80s was we it was drilled into us that every time we push the shutter button, it cost $1 between the film and the proofing. You're spending money every time you push the button. So the biggest difference between then and now is back then you had to be very selective. And I worked for photographers that would literally count your rolls of film and literally keep you to a limit on how many shots to do during an event. So you were very much more selective in your posing your lighting and you're grabbing because you wouldn't take you know, multiple images and you wouldn't just shoot off the cuff. You'd have to plan things And the other major factor was, we shot knowing where the images would end up in an album. We shot, left facing pages and right facing pages, we had in our head, a script that told us we need the bride with mom and dad, we need the groom with mom and dad, we need the entire wedding party we need. So there was this whole kind of scenario that you dance through at an event, keeping the people in mind, but also keeping the final product in mind, if that makes sense.

Gary Pageau  5:33  
Sure. Plus, you had to make sure your exposure was right on, right, because you really had to know what you were doing in terms of exposure, because you couldn't see what you were doing.

Glen Clark  5:42  
I mean, you couldn't see the end product. That is absolutely correct. On the other hand, thanks to professional labs back then they there was some leeway, because they could they could fudge in the printing. But and it was it was interesting back then, Gary, I mean, I don't know about everybody, it was pretty common. And I did it had numbers, handwritten on the back of my flash, and it said, If I'm so many feet away, use this off f stop and use this power setting. And back then are on cameras, strobes had two settings, full power, or half power. And that was it. And and you didn't vary the ISO, the ISO was based on your film, if you put you know, 100 speed film in, that's what you had it right. So there wasn't there wasn't as many variables as there is with the technology today.

Gary Pageau  6:29  
Even then, as as film, tech is built technology advanced, you had various ISOs various capabilities within the film you had, you know, various now, you know, motions that would, you know, have convey this sort of effect, like, you know, realla, from Fuji or things like that. So I always thought that was kind of interesting when, when the film technology also advanced to the point where you could select different looks and feels just based on the emotion.

Glen Clark  7:01  
Yes, and I think that was a that was a big factor in Why two and a quarter scomp formats, larger format film took off, because you have removable batteries for the camera. So you if you are shooting Hasselblad or shooting Mumia, you could have a variety of motions of film loaded into batch, and you could switch your back. So you could go from 100 ASA, to a 400, ASA to possibly an 800 ASA and you had Kodak that was more skin-tone, balanced and Fuji that was more vivid-color balanced, and you had all these different emotions that would give you different responses in the shade or the open sun. And so that really was the first I recall, of opening up the palette to creativity with the ability to change films, and come up with different looks that way.

Gary Pageau  7:56  
And that also, I mean, you know, kind of changed, because you know, during that period also, you know, 35millimeter was opening up to amateurs, right? So you saw that was a way for a professional to distinguish themselves was to use a professional back with, you know, professional film, as opposed to, you know, your your Canon 81 with a kid lens and often enough flash, right?

Glen Clark  8:21  
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It also opened up the professionals to what later became the wall portrait market, because now they had a capture device in the film that would allow them to go to wall size prints. Whereas with the 35, once you got past the eight by 10 or 11 by 14, you were kind of questionable as to what you could do with it.

Gary Pageau  8:42  
I found an interesting that you were mentioning the album as the final product. Because today, I just don't get the feeling photographers shoot a wedding with a a final product in mind.

Glen Clark  9:00  
I would very much agree with that. Just Just thinking about your own organizational name here. I think the live pixels don't know an album. The live pixel album is the screen they're looking at it on. Right.

Gary Pageau  9:19  
So so getting into that, you know, you've been working with photographers you've been working with, especially last 10 years, you've been working with photographers who are you know, ambassadors, and also, you know, key customers and whatnot. How are they? How have they adapted to the change in not only technology but also in what the expectations are from the bride and groom, mostly the bride but let's say the bride and groom.

Glen Clark  9:49  
Well, I think one of the biggest factors, and you mentioned that I've been around for a long time. So there was a period of time where pbfa was doing studies It became apparent that the industry was moving from a male dominated industry to, to a female oriented industry. That made a huge difference. Because, and I don't want to be typecasting or anything like that. But in general, feelings became more involved with photography as opposed to just technology. So the technology today has lightened the weight of the cameras, it has increased the ability to do lighting on location. And it is given us a whole set of tools to use via computers, and software's and apps and everything else, to take things beyond the initial capture. So I think all those things together have really changed the type of person that is a photographer, to still village still visually oriented, but not the mechanic of the old days, as much as the technical or emotionally driven today. So I think there's a huge difference that took decades to actually transition from one to the other. But now it's a lot more impulsive. Now, it's a lot more immediate. And it's a lot more I almost want to say user friendly. But you know, back in the day, you did a wedding, and they were looking at getting a final album, six to eight weeks down the road. Today, if you don't see an image before you leave the wedding party. Something's wrong.

Gary Pageau  11:43  
Wow. That's something so I remember when PP of a recognize that trend, because they change the name of their magazine, from professional photographer magazine to storytellers. And then they kind of went back, it went back to professional photographer. So I thought that was kind of interesting. But that that is an interesting insight into sort of not only is the technology change, but also the the the the ability of the photographer to tell that story.

Glen Clark  12:21  
Mm hmm. Yep.

Gary Pageau  12:24  
So from the output side of the business, that's a very, very different value proposition. Because there isn't always an album, although there always seems to be a belief that the bride and groom won an album. And there's a lot of debate whether that's actually the case, whether they want a physical album, or, or whatnot, of course, there's a lot of societal changes to in terms of how people are, where they're having weddings, and you know, their destination weddings. Now, there's, you know, very fewer of them are occurring in churches. So it's just, there's a lot of change in that wedding market right now.

Glen Clark  13:06  
Yes, it's huge. And it's a spectrum. And there's extremes on both ends, you still have traditional photographers that are producing albums, while prints folios, and things of that nature, because there's still customers from my generation and the next generation that that value those things. But there's also on the other spectrum, the other end of the spectrum, photographers that are passing along life pixels, to put it in your vernacular, I mean, they're sharing, they're sharing on screens, they're offering downloads, they're letting the customer make the decision as to whether it goes into a slideshow on an iPhone, or some kind of an app that's being posted on a website or shared on Instagram. So it's, it's very different than it was before. But on the plus side, I think in general, a lot more eyes might be seeing the images, because in the old days, there was an album and maybe some prints for mom and dad and grandma and grandpa. And a very limited number of people saw the wedding photography unless you went to the bride and groom's house to look at their album. Whereas today, it can be hundreds or 1000s of people that are viewing images online or being passed via text messages or who knows what. So it I think there's a given take in the whole process.

Gary Pageau  14:34  
You know, it's kind of interesting, because you've kind of touched on a point that is is kind of interesting how the wedding is now becoming almost a promotional tool for the photographer, in a sense, who, like you said posts during the wedding with the hashtag to Instagram and things like that. So Really, photographers have become much more savvy in terms of marketing than I think they would maybe be 30 years ago, I think not not not sitting work savvy, because that's not what I'm saying. But I, but I think it was, it was a very, very different sort of marketing.

Glen Clark  15:15  
Yes. And I do think that they have to be much more savvy as far as technology is concerned, because it's keeps changing all the time. Probably a big difference, Gary was, and I'm not saying this for all photographers, but in general. Back in the day, photographers did weddings, and they realized I used to do programs, training photographers on the fact that a wedding could be the opening the door to a customer for the rest of your life, because the weddings lead to children lead to families lead to school, pictures lead to high school seniors lead to the next generation of weddings. So you have this cycle that goes over and over and on and on. Right? I don't think today's photographers in general, I don't think they think that way. I think a wedding photographer is a wedding photographer, a wedding photographer, it's kind of a catch and release program, where they they do the images, and in many cases, offer them as downloads. So they never see the customer again, and they're perfectly happy. You know, they're perfectly happy to provide images. And they don't even know what the final output might be. And they don't even know how many people are utilizing those images. And they don't care. Yeah,

Gary Pageau  16:31  
yeah, no, it is it is sort of that photography is a service model, right, where you're gonna have somebody come and photograph your, your wedding or your wedding or your reunion or something like that, and you're just gonna hand over the images and, and they're off.

Glen Clark  16:44  
And in that sense, it's become more similar to what commercial photography used to be. Because that used to be the big difference between commercial photography and portrait photography is you'd pay a commercial photography, lots of money to show up and take the images. And he'd hand you a piece of transparency film or a final output. And the photographers were, you know, $29 sitting fees, and they made it made their money in their profit, selling the output and the prince well, that that model has changed.

Gary Pageau  17:15  
It's really kind of gone, it's kind of gone back to the, to the roots, actually, I think early photography was was like a paid for the setting fee. And that was the higher value than the extra output because and you know, back in the day, you're just using glass plates and whatnot. Now, that's even before our time the glass plates. So what is do you think is the constant that's been constant through all these decades of the portrait industry, what has been consistent that, you know, photographers can rely on

Glen Clark  17:49  
my, my experience to my training, I always go immediately to the fact that we are in the people business, we create a product, but we're in the people business. So Customer service is a constant. relationship building is a constant, you may only be the photographers today might only be seeing the customer or the client for that one day or for that one job, but you never know. And it's still a relationship once we get together. And there's the only thing between you and the subject is a camera, you build a relationship. So it's the relationship business, it's its service and its people. The other thing I think that are constant is quality. There's no substitute for quality as quality is kind of subjective, when you look at it from, you know, just the standpoint of what's good and what's bad. Because your tastes might be different than my taste. But quality as far as a lasting product quality as far as a finish, that lets the person know that they got what they paid for kind of thing. And I think another constant is visual excitement. Photography, in general, is visually exciting to all of us. Now, we all may have different types of photography that we like, but it still it captures our attention and captures our imagination. So I think it's, it's an exciting business to be in, it's a people, business. Technology is changing that we can do it from more distances, we can do it in different places, but there's still this connection, even if that connection is just on Instagram, for a moment or, you know, through social media for a back and forth exchange, there's still this connection that makes it a person to person activity.

Gary Pageau  19:45  
So, you've also been on you know, the lab side, you know, there's been a lot of changes there to like you said there's been you know, album you know, I remember when labs would actually you know, consider struck the album's for the photographers and all that. And that's, that's, to some extent gone to photo books and things like that. And, you know, I think there's still some, some some some album out there. But it's, you know, very, very small part of the market compared to what it used to be. How are the labs coping with this new kind of photographer.

Glen Clark  20:20  
I think the labs today have been the labs that are surviving and doing well today have become the model of adaptation. I mean, again, back in the day, we produced photo prints. And that was about it. Variations of photo prints. Nowadays a lab is, is it produces manual manufacturers photos on a variety of substrates from paper to metal to wood. But they also, they do still build albums, they do still build books, they do framing, they do. They still do coffee cups and, and key rings and things like that. Labs today are also divergent in the sense that they recognize there's a difference between the professional market and the retail market. And they can custom tailor their products to fit different markets, labs today may be fulfilling through websites they may be through fulfilling through multiple storefronts, they may be fulfilling for individual photographers, through partner relationships. With online services, a photographer can easily put up a website in a gallery connected to a lab and be selling images that are delivered across the country or around the world. So they become much more involved in shipping, much more involved in coming up with new products, new ways to use the image. And because it's digital, I mean, we used to print prints and slip them into an album page. Now with digital prints are printed on pages, they're printed on wood, metal or whatever, it's a different process entirely. And you still have the traditional photo processes of light sensitive emulsion, but you've got this whole genre of inkjet type, or dye sub type printing that allows for the creation of a whole new world of products.

Gary Pageau  22:22  
I think you've hit on something that that really has been a strong effect in the industry, because for a lot for many for decades, the driver in terms of technology was the Eastman Kodak company, you know, they came up with a technology platform, they would in terms of you know, film and the emulsion and chemistry and they even sold the equipment to analyze the you know, the PBX back in the day and everything else to analyze the prints and all those, all that technology. And that's really missing today, that sort of leadership isn't really there, where you would have us a major vendor. And you know, Fujifilm to some extent to who we're providing really, the infrastructure for the lab. And nowadays, a lab has to be far more creative, I think be far more aggressive in terms of their own product development than they ever had to be.

Glen Clark  23:16  
Right. I think that's particularly true on the professional side. If you look at the way, the industry and just everything is evolving. That line between professional and retail, amateur and enthusiast is really blurry. And you'll see you don't have a Kodak leading a professional charge when you see companies like Nikon pulling out of professional trade shows. And you see companies like Panasonic and Sony going into professional trade shows, you know that there's huge changes out there. One other point I wanted to bring up this may be a little bit off your question, but one of the points I wanted to bring up before we lose the conversation is and you would remember this well. Back in 2007 2008, PMA and and DIMA. Were featuring "The Long Tail" a book by Chris Anderson. Yep. Do you remember that? Oh, yeah, definitely. And I think we're seeing the long term effects of the long term phenomena. There used to be a finite number of professional photographers in the US. And we used to work with a number that said something like, you know, 30,000 was the top number of full time professionals and maybe 100,000 part timers. Nowadays, you're looking at numbers that no one can count, because they're in the millions because everybody with an iPhone, everybody with a an Android with good camera is potentially a professional photographer through websites and through sharing sites and through social media. So it's very different but what I The reason I bring up the longtail is because now You've got millions of people doing specialty items, you'll see the genre of landscape and nature is exploded, which and before before, it was just kind of a separate little category that was just within something else. I mean, it wasn't, it didn't produce that much. And it was a real niche. But now you've got these these little areas, what would have been little areas that are now areas of concentration that people can make their statement with?

Gary Pageau  25:37  
But is that a business? I wonder?

Glen Clark  25:41  
That's a real good question. I talked to photographers all the time. I mean, it used to be full time, part time, or amateur now is, you know, you can divide that up probably another 20 times, I'm still involved in a couple of weekly meetings with photographers, we do zoom calls, we do things like that. And there's everything from retirees who have never touched a camera before, to full time studio owners on these calls. And there's everything in between. and, you know, there's somebody that has an exhibit at the local restaurant, there's somebody that has an exhibit at a recreation Hall in town, they all consider themselves as professionals as soon as they sell one image. And that image may be a download through smugmug. Or it could be a, you know, a print that they sold through shoot true for who knows. But as soon as they do that, in their minds, they're a professional. And there's still those people that believe they're professional, even if they haven't sold one because they want to write so that's a that's a tough thing. To put a actual definition on.

Gary Pageau  26:53  
Yeah, cuz I mean, it's, I mean, you would think being a professional means you're at least making some money at it. I mean, that would be we think there's that would be part of the definition of professional, right?

Glen Clark  27:05  
Traditionally, yes. But nowadays, I think a lot of people think they're a professional if they're spending money on it. If they're taking classes if they're reading books, if they're buying cameras. So yeah, I mean, you and I would probably define professional differently. But it really is up to each individual to say, What are you and even some people that are selling prints, they don't call themselves professionals, they just happen to sell a print. So that the definition is all over the board.

Gary Pageau  27:35  
You mentioned something earlier that I found interesting was the remark about trade shows. That's really changed. And it was changing even before COVID because I started to see it where you know it like if some of the big photographer shows I was going to W ppi. I had not even been imaging in a while, but I had been to W PPI probably for three or four years ago. And you got a sense from the big supporters like the labs, that it was not as cost effective as it could have been in terms of exhibition space. And then like you said, you mentioned you got Nikon pulling out of shows, which is unheard of probably, you know, like, like photo plus and things like that. What do you think the future is of the those end user type shows?

Glen Clark  28:29  
I think and I hope that shows come back because there's still a real need for people to people contact? Sure. My guess would, my guess would be that they won't be as big as involved as they were before. You are exactly correct. That, at least on the professional side trade shows were diminishing. I think that's true all the way up to photokina. They were getting smaller, I can speak more intelligently to the trade shows in the US. But when you look at the anchor stores, like in a mall, I call it the camera companies and the labs are kind of the anchor stores. And you look at you look at the key anchor stores in a photo trade show. And in the last year before COVID and in 2019 look at those companies that ceased participating. And it's amazing. There were things such as major lab that didn't go to WPPI but they went across the street and put on their own workshop seminar. There were you know, there's things like that where I believe the major companies started to realize that when you put yourself in with everybody else, you're you're you're diluting by jumping in the ocean with a bunch of others. Whereas if you can make create your own pond and be the big fish in that pond, you'll you'll get more attention and that's kind of an effect of the long tail in in in a way, because you're creating a big fish little pond mentality, and you've got some more control. And in the last few years, trade shows have been all about capturing email addresses and creating lists. And you do that so you can go back and then start communicating and building up. And it's a it's a numbers game, that is way beyond what used to be the handing out business cards and shaking hands, you come back with, you know, 100 or 150 possible leads. And now it's how many people went to this show, there's 10,000, I expect to come back with 9000 names and email addresses and what can I do to get that and then we're going to communicate them with them. Maybe even before we leave the trade show floor, definitely within a week, you know, that kind of thing. It's very different. 

Gary Pageau  30:54  
Coming from, you know, my background with PMA, which, you know, the annual PMA show was, you know, our largest revenue driver. And it was clear even then, you know, when I left PMA in 2012, even going towards that time that the trade shows were struggling, this is becoming a this week coming up for decades, actually, you know, right print industry, we're seeing that, you know, consolidation among the print shows. It's just, it's just like you said, a shame, because it does bring people together. And that's the part that I would like to see continue in some way, shape or form, because you need the investment of some exhibitors somewhere to drive traffic to drive interest. You know, because people do want to get their hands on the latest Canon or the latest Nikon or the latest Sony, they do want to see what output looks like, you know, they do want to see what a giant print looks like. And so there there's a value in that. But in the end, I mean, you're kind of asking a lot of the vendors to, to invest in just to get people together. So they can have a cocktail party. And I don't know what the business model is for that in the future. But But you're right, I would like to see them continue.

Glen Clark  32:07  
Well, and I think the trend that I saw even before COVID. And I think what will likely happen after we get back to some kind of normal situation is vendors will start putting more emphasis on the education side of a convention rather than the trade show, right? Yeah. Photographers go to trade shows for multiple reasons. There's awards, presentations, there's education, there's camaraderie, and social and there's a trade show, the trade show, after a while becomes less attractive, because they can get the same information online, they can get it faster, they do still want to see the big prints, they do still want to see the new camera lenses, and those kinds of things. But my guess will be the sponsorship will shift to the photographers, to the education to the classrooms. I already saw that starting much more in 2018 2019. And I believe that's what's happening when you see vendors go off site to do their own thing, they're getting more involved in the education, they're getting more involved in the hook that will keep the customer attached to them. That'd be my guess where we're going.

Gary Pageau  33:20  
So it's kind of hollowing out the event or kind of inverting the event, if you will. Now, you know, what I think is gonna affect the economics of that, unfortunately, is, you know, the the the exhibits kind of underwrite the education side of it. So that keeps the education side affordable. And will people maybe if there is no trade show, let's say for example, we could we create it, you and I create an event. Garin Glenn's photo Expo or photo conference, and it's basically, you know, two days of education, some tabletops and things like that. But you and I are gonna have to charge 300 bucks a head for people to attend that because we've got still got rooms to occupy and overhead to cover and things like that. Whereas back in the day, you could kind of cover that with tradeshow expenses, right? You overcharge the exhibitors, so you can pay for that stuff. What do you think the Do you think photographers are willing to pay for education at that, under that model?

Glen Clark  34:21  
I do it but don't shortchange the fact that I think vendors will shift to putting more money on the education side and they'll be in the room. So eventually, those will be like many trade shows in a way. Because in an education room, when you're there as an exhibitor, you're shaking hands, and you're not trying to necessarily sell them things. You're trying to be part of the team part of the group. Right. So I think I think there's a difference that way. So I think that vendors will still be involved. Now I noticed in the last few years sponsor Ship monies was was increasing. And organizations were asking vendors more to cover things like hotel rooms for the speakers and meals, things that they didn't ask for specific coverage of before, because it was in the sponsorship package, it was in the trade show package, I see some of those things being separated out. And vendor vendors involved in those things. So the revenue won't, it'll, it'll go down. But at the same time, Gary, keep in mind, a major vendor going to a trade show spends hundreds of 1000s of dollars in physically going to the trade show in shipping and setup and teardown in booths. They if they don't have to spend that anymore, and they spend a little bit more on the education side, they're still saving money. And if they're getting if they're getting more better effect, because the speakers are talking about what they offer. It actually could be a win win for everybody.

Gary Pageau  36:01  
Yeah, I think you're exactly right on that. Because I think that was one of the things people in the industry or who attended shows like PMA or photokina, really did not know how much those booths actually cost in terms of just the overhead. I mean, construction. I mean, for example, if you go to CES, they're they're building those booths for weeks ahead of time. Mm hmm. And paying union wages for that. I mean, it's a very expensive event. So, like, if

Glen Clark  36:32  
Gary, if I could, if I could ask offer one more aspect of it. Absolutely. And and that is when I say education, education used to be a bunch of people sitting in a room taking notes. The new education is the workshop format. The new education is people with cameras, creating images, leaving an event with a portfolio leaving an event with samples. If you look at shows such as shutter Fest, portrait masters, click con. There was one in 2020, at the beginning of the year, on dance photography, and in Phoenix area, they become more specialized. They're smaller from the standpoint of 300 500, maybe 1000 attendees, but they're charging more money, they may not be charging more for the ticket to get in. But they're but by the time you take the classes, do the workshops, involve yourself, you're going to a hotel. So the models already there for photographers to spend more money. And I think photographers are willing to do that, if they're getting something if they're coming back with images they can use. That's huge in their mind. So I think there is a shift that's already happening.

Gary Pageau  37:55  
And hopefully, as we move forward into 2021, things will start opening up and we'll see those events.

Glen Clark  38:02  
Exactly, exactly.

Gary Pageau  38:04  
So as we draw to a close, what is your feeling about the professional photography industry? You know, you've seen a lot of change, you're still engaged, you're so excited, what do you see as the near term future?

Glen Clark  38:19  
Still think it's a viable option? I think that if I was entering the industry, I would be much more aware of technology. I think good light is always going to be good light. But, but the technology of two things, I think technology of the cameras and the software and the computers involved and all those things is huge. I think I think the other thing is, in the old days, we used to buy a Hasselblad camera and shoot with that camera for 25 years, I still have the Hasselblad I got 1971 in today's market, you're turning over equipment every two to three years. You're staying on top of new lenses, you're you're staying on top of new technology and new apps. I mean, you are staying on top of those things if you want to stay viable. So it's a different mindset entirely. I think adaptation is one of the key words. So a photographer that's flexible, a photographer that's looking for content is willing and able and enjoys constant change. And challenge will do you really well in photography. But again, I also go back to the thing that I don't think should change is you're in the people business, even if those people contacts are less in terms of amount of time, they're still valid and viable and it still puts you at an advantage over big box stores and things like that. 

Gary Pageau  39:50  
Well, great. Well, great Glen, thank you for taking time to talk today and hope to talk to you or see you sometime in 2021

Glen Clark  39:59  
Gary It's always a pleasure and thanks for having me.