Driving a sales-oriented photography business, with Lynn Cartia

Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society talks with Lynn Cartia, a New Mexico-based professional photographer for more than 30 years. Cartia gained notoriety a few years ago with her humorous alter-ego, Missy MWAC, but soon discovered there was a need for straight-to-the-point advice for photographers.

In this interview, Cartia talks about sales strategies, the need for photographers to sell prints, and how classic business practices, while not trendy, are what build a successful long-term business.

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Transcript

Erin Manning  
Welcome to the dead pixel society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Gary Pageau  
The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Photo Finale and Advertek Printing. Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're joined by professional photographer and industry gadfly Lynn Cartia Lynn, how are you today?

Lynn Cartia  
 I am fantastic. How are you doing? We're doing great today. 

Gary Pageau  
Tell us a little bit about where you are in your business and where you are geographically?

Lynn Cartia  
Well, geographically. I'm in a chair at my desk. I'm in New Mexico. Where I am in my business. I have been in the industry, I almost don't want to tell you how many years because in in dog years, I would have been dead A long time ago. Okay, but I haven't done this since I was I've been in in the photography industry since I was 19. Okay, so like 10 years ago, Gary? No, I've been for many, many moons many decades have passed?

Gary Pageau  
Well, how did that start to get into the industry? Did you start out on you know, shooting it through somebody else's studio? or How did that work?

Lynn Cartia  
You know, it started I was unhappy where I was working. I like I said, I was 19 I was in college. And I started working at a studio. And I remember that I was I was in college at the time. And I would sit in like my classes and I'd be bouncing my leg because I couldn't wait for it to be over. So I could get to work. So I could be immersed in that it was unlike anything I had ever ever experienced. Um, and you know, it just snowballed from there. There's ever been that I don't want to do this.

Gary Pageau  
So what kind of studio was it? Was it like seniors graduation? Was it? portrait studio? So it was a little bit rambley? A little bit of everything babies? It was so and then how long from there? Did you then work there and then move on to doing your own shop your own place? Oh gosh, probably about? I'm going to say about five years. Okay. So you're in your mid 20s. And you say, Listen, this is this is my passion. This is what I'm going to do. And you start your own thing. So that was what, two years ago maybe? Exactly. I'm really new. Well, how a lot of people encountered you at first, I always that's all I did was true an alter ego that you had. Can you tell us a little bit about Missy and where Missy came from?

Lynn Cartia  
Yeah, Missy came about because I went to lunch with a fellow photographer in my state. And we went to lunch. And we were talking about the state of the industry. And this was back in 2011 I think it was so 10 years ago. And at the time, which we don't wish we kind of gotten away from thank heavens, you would go to the trade shows and you go to the to the the conferences, and everything was camera bags for women and everything was the cutesy little straps on the camera. Oh, it was just everything was like the accessory I became a photographer to for the accessories because there darling. And so at this lunch, I remember where the Macaroni Grill, I started improvising. I might have a little bit of that background. And I started I started riffing on this, you know, kind of I'm I'm just in it because it's fun. And I get to wear the pretty things. And you know, I don't know how the camera works. And yeah, I think that pays for professional on the camera. I did this whole bit. I just ripped it up. And he laughed so hard. He was like, you know, you need to make a video for me because I need to watch this when I get frustrated. And I said okay, so I actually came home and I made a video, and I couldn't send it because it was too long. And I'm like, Oh, forget it. I'll just make a YouTube account. I had no idea. So I made two I sent it haha, we're laughing and then I get a call in December. This is like the end of summer. I get a call in December from a well known photographer that I know who used to be in New Mexico no longer is and he asked her Missy, and he called the studio and I'm like, I didn't even know what you're talking about. I'm like, Well, I know who this is. And my studio manager is like you gotta call it's kind of weird. So I called I had not known that people there was a stupid little video that somebody found it and then it just got exploded. And and that's where Missy started. It was really dressing the absurdities in the industry by being absurd by making myself see this. And in fact, I would have people that would message me and say, used to really dislike you until I saw it because I saw myself in you. And then I realized, Oh, that's probably why I don't like it. So wake up call. So for that it was fun. And then and then people started asking really serious questions. They were like, they wanted to know business questions. They wanted to know sales questions, things about printing and why I should do it and how were things done and and I find I found myself not content to give them a flippant Missy answer, because I felt like they deserve more than that. Because they're really serious in their in their

Gary Pageau  
Missy was a character.

Lynn Cartia  
So I couldn't let her but I was getting more and more and more of these. And so I thought, you know, I can't I can't answer in in a parody fashion. I have to be completely honest. Because it would be do a disservice if I did anything other than that. And so yeah, so Missy morph to Lin. And so here I am.

Gary Pageau  
One of the things that I that I found interesting about the Missy character, is it really focusing on sort of the entry level lifestyle that photographers aspire to, like you said, you know, ps4 program, I get all these cute gadgets and why, you know, and it's really I'm on the Nikon team, yay. And then, and then they would go to shows and sort of live that sort of experience as well. And that seemed to be that's where conference in shows sort of became social events rather than educational events.

Lynn Cartia  
It's funny because and you and I talked a little bit about this before, during our during our kind of warm up before the podcast. And that is, um, you did see a lot of people promote kind of that lifestyle. And to be honest, you still do, I joke that I know the pandemics coming to a close because the workshops are now coming out of the woodwork again, online thing, right? And so and so you see people who sit in it in a room and they listen to a story from a stage, and they believe every word of it, because why wouldn't they? They're brand new, they don't know what they don't know, a seasoned photographer is sitting in the crowd, like me going, ah, you know, can I ask a question? Because I wouldn't do that. But But knowing that so much of this is because there is a product to sell or join my facebook group, and then we're gonna have these retreats, and then we're getting buy my stuff. And so it became, it became a lot of that, and it just kind of grew that, that kind of mentality. And I think you might be seeing that start to happen again. I don't know, we saw a lot of that. You know, after 2008 we had the recession. And

Gary Pageau  
yeah, what happened was people got laid off from their jobs, they decide they want to be a photographer. And they kind of rushed into the industry because we saw that in the PMA world. And it was just kind of fascinating. And then one of the things you've been commenting on is the workshop is really the business photography's not the business.

Lynn Cartia  
I tell you to Okay, so I travel I'm not as well traveled as a lot of people, I'm sure, but I, I get around Gary. And so when I go places and make it a point to look on, you'll Google and see who's here, like, Who do I know who's like a workshop or rock star kind of, I think we've stars, I'll go to Nashville, I'll do it, I'll go to LA I'll do it. Wherever I am. I'm gonna go look and see. And it is amazing to me, the lack of presence, the people who are very big within the industry have within their own community. Right. So they're known within the industry at large. Right, but as far as like a recognized brand business reputation within their own city, not so much. And so there's a disconnect there. And I don't think that new photographers always realize that they're like, oh, they're so famous and popular and successful, and then try to find their studio,

Gary Pageau  
they can't make payroll, or they don't have any assistance. I mean, that's the thing I hear from other people in the industry, sort of in this realm is you know, you have the folks who are rock stars, they're, they're, you know, they're bumming drink tickets out at the reception that night. You know, so it's, it's a weird sort of thing, how the lack of actual credentials in sales or business or marketing because if you're good at the Insta, and you're good at the Twitter, and maybe you can do a tick tock or two, you get a following and all of a sudden, you're credible.

Lynn Cartia  
I had it I had someone a little side note, I had someone asked me to come speak at a conference and I thought long and hard about it because I'm like, I don't know if I want to go and do this conference. But I thought okay, I who else is speaking I looked at the lineup and I'm like, oh boy, you know, I felt like a which of these things is not like the other Like, oh, this is not this is. But I think you know, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it because I, I think it could be refreshing, I think it can be fun, I'm gonna keep in mind who's there and, and I will tread cautiously but at the same time, you know, you know, because I don't drop names, I don't think do things like that it's not, that's not who I am. And I remember that there were a couple of the rock stars, I know who they are, I shan't say their names. That hard time with me. And so the organizer of this, this conference, and it was annual, I don't think they do it anymore. I think it kind of just fizzled out, sent me an email and said, I've got a couple concerns. Now, here I am. Now I'm in this thing. This is I live it, I breathe it, I work it. This is my bread and butter, there is no plan B, this isn't a side hustle. This is what I do. It puts food on the table. It pays for my kids, everything, it's yours, but they wanted to, they wanted me to give proof to the other work shoppers that I was

Gary Pageau  
seeing you on the circuit.

Lynn Cartia  
I was like, you know, maybe you know, if we all want to put in our income tax returns, I would be thrilled to do so. I would love to put my Corporation up, you put yours up, you put yours up. Let's all go look, they didn't want to do that. So I'm like, Okay, well, why do I have to prove when you don't have to prove it? And that kind of goes back to the vetting process. And it's not just for the industry as a whole? It's not it's very disappointing. When you see these large organizations, not thoroughly vetting their speakers who are teaching a new generation of photographers, I always encourage people, you know, don't count on them to do it. You do it. You've got the Google, you have the internet, you know, anybody can be anything online. Right? How easy is that? But you need to do your own homework on this as well. Or, you know, you're going to get surprised really fast.

Gary Pageau  
So did you do that event? Or did they did they bail on you?

Lynn Cartia  
I was so taken aback by the request. Because the people who were there I knew for a fact had no business. I mean, I knew it, like prove it knew it. And I wasn't going to do that. Because I wasn't going to be embarrassing, but to the organizer. I did say Listen, I can tell you right now, their business is workshopping, they do not make their money with their camera and a studio. They make it selling their goods to other photographers. It's always funny to me when people say, you know, I had a studio for three years or five years, and then I closed it so I could teach. And it was highly successful and profitable. And I'm like, Listen, if you're closing a successful and profitable business to workshop, I don't think I want you teaching me about business. Right? Because why would you? Not? Right? Yeah, that didn't add up. So no, long story short? No, I did not. I did not do

Gary Pageau  
that conference, you chose not to?

Lynn Cartia  
I chose not to? Yeah, well, you know, Association, you got to be careful.

Gary Pageau  
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, because we, you know, in the PMA world, you know, we did conferences all the time, we kind of ran into that as well, a little bit, because you'd have sort of the rule of thumb was, you know, if you've got somebody who's super eager to present, how do some, you know, vet them? figure that out? You know? Because, I mean, they may have another agenda, right? They may be looking to sell their business, they may be looking to do something else. And in the photography world, the photographer world, I should say, You've also got the sponsorship angle, right? Because you've got vendors who, you know, are basically paying for the session, right? And then the event organizer has to kind of accommodate that, because that's, that's where the money is. So it is interesting.

Lynn Cartia  
It is tricky. And I think you just have to be careful and I think there has to be an accountability to and that's something I speak of quite often or I did pre COVID did you talk photography during COVID it was just so dumb. Why am I going to talk about in person sales and print your photographs when you know people are shut down? It was just dumb. So it's kind of nice to be back talking about it again.

Gary Pageau  
Well, you know, what's interesting is you made a comment once or something about this corn stuck with me was that Be careful of of a presenter or an instructor who's only pictures are from their workshops.

Lynn Cartia  
true, it's true, or you see the same models used over and over again, you're like, oh, because it's not it's not a fresh body of work, which means there is not you're not seeing new clients and I'm okay with repeat clients, I get it. I post repeat clients. Um, you know, I did a family and then they come back, you know, three years and do it again. And And sure, but I'm talking this same people and everything that you know, and I've seen these workshops to where mentioning sponsors, you know, I have a lighting sponsor, and they will come in and set up the freakin lights. And I'm like, Whoa, so So that the workshop giver, like I'm using air quotes, like anybody can even see us, you can see me.

Gary Pageau  
They were implied.

Lynn Cartia  
Yeah, they, um, they just have to come in and pick up the camera and shoot. And it's not like they gave the instructions, right. Like, you just said it this way. They set it up and then they. So it's a lot of style over substance. And I think and where do you not find that in the world? It's everywhere, right? Yeah, I

Gary Pageau  
mean, it's certainly not exclusive to photography by any means. Not at all. So brag a little bit about your business itself.

Lynn Cartia  
I work damn hard. And I have I don't think people know how hard I work. I don't talk about that aspect of me a lot. When I got into this whole talk about photography, and people kind of knew my name. And I've always wanted, it's the way I run my business. You I've always wanted it to be about the people and not about me. Well, it's not Oh, you know, I had my best year ever in 2019. I my second best year ever in 2019. That is true, right? For COVID hit my second best year, in 30 years, and it was awesome. And this year is shaping up, I'm pretty, I'm happy with 2021. this far, I was nervous coming into it. I worked very, very hard. You know, I don't, especially during the summer, you know, a day could start at nine and then I don't get home till 930 at night. Because that's how it works. I believe in being incredibly accessible to your clients. Um, not that well just don't bother me with an email. Yeah, you better bother me with an email. And I'll respond to it just as soon as I can. And not that that's wrong, that people don't do that. Because you have to decide what's best for you and yours. It's just, I've always run a very client forward client focused business, it's never mean my mind, I look at me look at this on this, that it's always done. And it's held me in good stead, I'm sure there's someone who could argue that for them, you know, I become all that and a bag of chips. And people love it. Well, maybe they do. But I can tell you the proof is in the pudding. And it's been a great life with the core values that I believe when it comes to, to running a business. I mean, I believe strongly in being a salesperson first. And, second, I always have, I've always believed that you can be the best at what you do. And make these you know, jaw dropping images. But if you can't sell your work, you are not gonna make money. And all it will ever be as a great hobby. And you'll be the one who was just a great photographer. So it depends on your goal, and that's okay. But if your goal is to run a business, you got to run it like a business otherwise it is just a hobby. So I've done that for a long, long time. And I'm thrilled to still be doing it.

Gary Pageau  
So what would be a good resource for photographers to get sales, training and advice because you don't always see that at conferences. You don't see that

Lynn Cartia  
you know, PPA is to have the m&m conference, the marketing and management conference. And this is when ppas main convention was always held in the summer. And then they would have their m&m in January and it was in Vegas. And they would bring in they had photography people, but they would bring in non photography folks, right who just talked about sales. And that's where I first encountered Jeffrey Gitomer. They brought Jeffrey Gitomer in and I'm like, Who is this man? Who's walking down the aisles saying, you know what happens when you give someone your brochure, as like, you just threw up on him? He was brutal. And it was wonderful. And I followed him ever since it's like, Yeah, okay. So I'm in my head. I think that you have to look beyond your industry. I always say that you have to find people who are doing what you want to do. And it's, it can be difficult, you have to put some legwork in it because they often won't be on stage, right? You doing what they're doing. So you have to scout them out, watch what they do, look at how they market and then look for inspiration beyond it you know, I I joke all the time. And if this is gonna make me sound like I'm 89 years old, you know, some of the past greats, the zig Zigler of the world. Those sales concepts they don't change. Right. Those are the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. And then you know, today's get immers who who kind of forward that mentality because sales is a mentality. Well, you know,

Gary Pageau  
it's funny, I think I think I've seen you mentioned john Aiko once or twice Oh, yeah. Jamaica. Yeah. Yeah, I just finished his latest book and soundtracks for those listening who want to check it out. And he actually in his podcast, he was he referenced Zig Ziglar and he talked in the book he talks for a chapter about Zig Ziglar which you know, I read I remember it PMA. We had Zig Ziglar. Once you know cost a fortune, but that was level people we tried to and he was worth every penny. Any? Well, exactly. Yeah, that was always, you know, some of the smartest people at a conference, you don't look for the people in the front, you look for the people in the back who are like, I don't know everything but there, and you just look to see what they're taking notes. Right?

Lynn Cartia  
Those are I remember listening to Zig Ziglar on a cassette tape, kids, if you don't know what that is, are these little plastic things with look like film inside them, and you put them in your car and you press play and fast forward. But I had the whole library of all of Zig Ziglar things I have a little album thing I keep in my car, they put in in on road trips, or whatever. I just listened to that. Because, you know, I thought this is this is right on, and those Zig isms. And they still buzz around in the back of my brain. So So yeah,

Gary Pageau  
I think what I think is funny is, you know, as we've gotten more technological, and more social media E and things like that people think the rules have changed. And they really haven't. The medium may change. But you know, though the rules of selling and business really haven't

Lynn Cartia  
they haven't you know that people always want to feel valued. They want to feel appreciated. They want to feel as though they matter. And their opinions matter that that's timeless people, you know, for example, in my studio, I have priceless and I do have a price schedule just printed out on sheets. But I don't I have a screening room because we do in person sales. I don't show a price list. Here's a priceless Tell me what you want. I don't do that. Because again, I don't want you to buy off of a list. What do you want? Tell me what you want. Look at what you get, how will you want? What do you want? No. So it's a whole different philosophy, again, that goes back to that, that doesn't change, you know, people still look for that. And they look to be respected. And and again, they want their business to matter to the people they're doing business with. That's why I'm a huge advocate, I have never sold online, I had to do some zooms during COVID, which was an ideal, but you know, you have to do what you have to do. Because it's it's it's all the things that people don't say the body language, the pause. That's how you do it, its relationship, and back and forth. And you have that ability is paramount no matter what you do.

Gary Pageau  
So you don't do any online galleries, or anything like that, or

Lynn Cartia  
I do I do a Social Media Gallery with purchase depends on what they purchase. But Social Media Gallery, and yes, and that will have a logo on it, and it will be uploaded, and they can download that. But I don't sell digital files. I never have I there are exceptions if it's like for a billboard or it's an executive or it's a campaign or something like that, where they really do need them. I will do it I do I photograph all the new providers for a hospital here in town and and they always get their digital images. So there are exceptions to that. I don't want to say that for a portrait client. No, I don't sell digital files. I give them a social media copy.

Gary Pageau  
One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you was your belief in print the importance of print, and why it's vital for professional photographers, you offer print, because there's sort of this undercurrent in the newbie world of the I will come shoot your wedding for $200 and give you a disc or I'll point you to us smugmug gallery or something and I don't think a you're serving the client very well, because you're kind of leaving a lot of the work up to them. And B, you're not really helping your business at all, either. But you've always been very print focused. And you've been a much of an advocate for that.

Lynn Cartia  
Always, always and I wish and there are people in the industry who have as well. So I don't I know that it's not just me, I wish that our labs are wonderful labs would just huge focus. I'm thinking Gosh, the labs could join together and just make this huge push for prints. I've always I've always marveled at why that isn't pushed more if I'm a lab. You know, it's what I do. So I'm gonna really make an effort to get that message out

Gary Pageau  
one more PPA tried that a couple years ago right there print for success campaign.

Lynn Cartia  
Okay, and I and Nathan Billa for you PPA, but I think it was a little behind the ball. I think that we had that ship had already begun to sail. Hey, we've left the dock and then here we come behind trying to run after it going. It's important and I think in order to really it's a it's kind of this is where get excited. It's a very multi layered issue why people don't print why photographers don't even offer it. I always believe that what you don't find important you will have a very difficult, difficult time selling right? You can play the game and you can pretend it's important to you but but many of today's new photographers do not believe in the printed photo. They don't. And they, and they enter the industry on the heels of someone who I will bet you didn't believe in the printed photo either. Right? And so well, that's just what we do, right? That's like when a client calls you and they ask for how much are all your images? How much you're all images, all the digital images? They're asking that because that's what they got the last time. And so they figure that that's the norm, right? Well, that's the norm because that's what everybody's doing. You must be the odd man out because you're not doing it instead of the other way around. I think that it goes again, we're going back to a core belief, why is it you do what you do? And I have seen because I'm in these groups. And so I watch quietly from my dark little corner. And I watch what people say, I've seen people say, I know I really should sell prints, but I don't want to hassle with it. Right? I know, I really could be making a little more money with this. But I wouldn't even know how to do it. It is such a foreign concept, a printed photograph to a freaking photographer. And this is where the disconnect comes in with me that they don't even know where to start. And people don't want to do it because they're afraid of selling Oh, I got to sell it then you know, I have to I have to do a sale that involves me. They just want to be one and done. I meet him I shoot it. I upload it. I never have to see him again. I go to Costco and spend my $150 if that's your business philosophy, who am I to say that that's wrong for you? I'm just saying it's not sustainable?

Gary Pageau  
Well, I am I am on there's a market for that. I mean, there's always been a you know, that's sort of the you know what I would say the quote, I'm sure the chainstore photo, right, you know, going to JC right? Or whatever back in the day, right? Where it's more utility type thing. But you're not capturing the the cherished moments, the special moments, the wall worthy moments, if you want to come, you know, come up with a phrase, you know, where you were saying, Yeah, this is this is the heirloom print or whatnot, how much your business? Is that sort of thing versus the just regular graduation photos and all that kind of stuff? I'm trying to get off trying to get up here? Well, when you say heirloom portrait, what do you mean by like, the like the family sitting that's framed, sitting behind the couch,

Lynn Cartia  
everyone has a different goal, I can tell you, for me, I will work. If we're talking about there's different kinds of sessions. We all shoot for what we want our finished product to be, or at least we should be doing that, right. So when it comes to families, my goal is always a wall portrait. That's it, they don't over the wall project probably haven't done my job. And they might not it's not like every client leaves the wall portrait. But if it's a family session, I shoot for a while portrait. If it's a senior session, I shoot for an album, because I want them to by 40, you know, four by six to eight by 10 images in a book or a box, I want that that is my goal. I want to make it hard for them to pick, I don't want them to narrow it down. I know some people shoot like seniors, they want to do the clusters on the wall, like the photo clusters while portrait clusters. But that's for me, that's what I do. That's my goal. I go in with that. With that notion. It also affects where I shoot as well. So I that's my goal on each and every session. I don't do many sessions. I don't do on, I don't run sales. I used to I remember doing valpak coupons back in the day, and those sorts of things. When I go in a store, and and they're like, do you have a coupon for this? And I'm like, no. And they say, my question is, Can I have the coupon price? Because I'm here and I'm buying the thing, right? Why do I need a piece of paper. So that mentality has stayed with me all my life. And I extend that in my sales room. Because if a client is in front of me, and they're placing this amazing order, and I can do something to sweeten the pot for them, or something that makes them feel special because they are special to me, I have no they have a choice. And they came to me, I'm going to do that. So every session back to your question, every session that I shoot, from the beginning to the end, even through the editing process, it's not like ah, these are just good. These are just, these are just five by seven, it doesn't matter. I will retouch it like it's a wall portrait. Because it's my name on it. And it's important.

Gary Pageau  
Some people would argue that's a very 20th century approach. And we all know there's not a lot of photographers who would that approach who have served by so what did you do differently? When you say what part of that is that a 20th century approach? Well, you know, you've got a sales room you've got the you know, the the packages that your day you present your price list and although you're not doing a lot online, you know, online or online ordering, nothing

Lynn Cartia  
Oh, so I'll do a quick correction. I don't show a price list unless they request. And I don't I don't necessarily do packages, I do offer some for seniors. I don't do anything in a package, because then you have to get what I want you to have instead of what you want to have. So how about I just cluster it for you tell me what you want to make a package for you? Right? That I bundle it for them? As far as in person. I tell you what, when back in the day, Gary, people said Kodak in the early 90s came out with their prison systems. You remember the prison system for Oh, yeah, yeah, I was, I think the second studio in New Mexico to get the prison system in the present.

Gary Pageau  
For those who don't remember, can you say what the prison system was?

Lynn Cartia  
I can the prison system was basically at the time everything was filmed. And so I shot Hasselblad, so I shot square. and below the camera on a monopod was his big video capture, if you will, and it would capture at the same time on his little video card the same image that the camera was capturing on, it was a precursor to digital.

Gary Pageau  
It was a there's a team splitter or something in there. And that's why it's called the prism because it split the image,

Lynn Cartia  
it changed what I did, because up until that time, in order for a client to see what they had, they had paper proofs, there was no other way to see it. You had negatives and in order to see the image, I mean, you had to do that. So people would project you know, they project the proof, right? I remember

Gary Pageau  
that, yeah.

Lynn Cartia  
duction rooms and never did that. prison system came along. And I started selling on a great big 19 inch TV, and it was in a little sales room. And really, I thought this is an investment. Oh, it's gonna work. It worked great. And everyone at the times like oh, you'll never be able to do it. People are gonna want to see proof. You'll never work. It worked beyond my wildest dreams. So when digital came along, if you're like, yeah, God, I post them online, because everybody wants to see him online. I thought, wow, do they? Do they? How personal is it Gary, when I meet you, and and we talk about what you want, for your family's photo, for example, how important it is to you. And when was the last time you guys did this. And you know, you might have kids coming in from out of town and, and we spend this wonderful time getting to know each other, it could be even over the phone, and then we meet and it's a great time and we get everything you want. We laugh and kind of get a little sneak peek on the back of the camera and oh, shake hands was a fun time. So much more fun than I thought. Then all of a sudden you and I have formed this relationship. And am I sick? Those digital images on an online gallery? All of a sudden between you and me is this thing called a computer? It's horrible. It's horrible. I'm not there as you see them. I'm not there to answer questions you might have. Right, you're gonna have all these things rattling around in your head. I can't help influence that by by, you know, giving you my opinion. What can or can't be done? You don't have those options in front of you. Oh, yeah, I could give you a brochure, in the words of Jeffrey Gitomer. there to answer those questions. Again, harking back to the zig ziglar topic, those things don't change, right, those things don't change at all, you know, if we see it on a on a huge screen, and clients pick them out. I think those client forward concepts have held me in good stead. Now. When I market I market with prints. Yeah, I've got online marketing, too. I do my Google ads and things like that. But within my own town, I have a print presence. I am in my airport in two locations. I've got a big display right next to the southwest counter. I'm as soon as you walk in from the parking lot. I it's actually a promotion that we do every year with with our public schools, called the selfless Senior Program, that the airport is a sponsor, and they put those kids up. And almost every theater in town, I have a print display in the lobby. In the mall, I have a print display. So I'm very print forward on everything I do so that it's not you come into the studio, hundreds of prints, I've got catalogs, you can go through a 1620. So you can just rifle through and get ideas. So it's not a shock to someone that I'm selling prints. So I'm going to show what you sell.

Gary Pageau  
So obviously you've got a great deal of passion for the industry. I think that's what I what's interesting, I thought was interesting. You said you were the picture taking the photographers it takes the backseat to more of the sales and customer service approach. But I have a feeling a lot of the people who get into it these days, almost get into it for the technical side of it or the social side of it, not the sales side.

Lynn Cartia  
Correct. But I think it's it's how you treat your it's how again, we go back to What is your philosophy? And that will direct you going forward that will determine how you approach everything. I see people online dogging out their clients, and I'm like, Oh, no, no, my worst day, would I share a story? And we all have them. the client made me wait 40 minutes and she showed up, it wasn't even sorry. And then when you post this, people who aren't your clients will see it. Right. And they will wonder, oh, if I use her, will she talk about me too? Or he? There isn't some? To some degree, there is a lack of taking the professional out of professional photography since 2008. No, there are people that don't like I said, they don't treat it like a business. And it becomes a hobby. And you can call it a business all you want, because it makes you feel good that you have a business, right. But we both know that it's a it's a whole different ballgame.

Gary Pageau  
So how does that so I'm sure you have to compete against some of those people. Yeah. Does that what does that do to the market?

Lynn Cartia  
The market has been saturated for a long time. And you know, everybody's a photographer, you know, everyone says that which, which I get a little little irritated with what me irritated? I think, I don't think he's everybody's photographer. I think that everybody has a camera. And I think that that's, that's a better way to look at it. And it's to the point where it's changed. It's changed a little bit the way I interact with potential clients. Because there is a there is a marked difference in philosophies. And and and you'll see that in the outcomes to in the outcome of the experience, and the outcome and the final product. And we all get lumped together, right, like, oh, all the photographers. And so you know, I have a storefront, I've had commercial space for a million years. And I think it's really important. I don't know if that's going to change. Now post COVID, which is a whole other you know, Game Changer when it comes to how we work and where we work. But I think it's important that people know, if you're going to drop a chunk of change, you know where to find me, if you don't like it. Um, I've always offered 100% money back guarantee, I mean, period, I will fix it. If you don't like it, or I will give you your money back. There's absolutely no risk. It's not like wow, and I don't do Digital's so you're doing a print, you have to you know what I mean? It's not like I can count maybe on one hand in 30 years, how many times that's happened, for one reason or another? Yeah. So So I take the risk out of it, because that's how strongly I believe in in what it is that I do.

Gary Pageau  
So you've mentioned sort of the post koban world and we're recording this, you know, as things are starting to open up, what do you think the post COVID world is going to look like for things like conferences, trade shows, seminars, things like that, in terms of how people gather and, and share information, because there's the school of thought that, well, everything's everyone's kind of moved online. And that's just the way it is. But I think there is, since we're human beings a need to actually meet and interact.

Lynn Cartia  
I agree, I think there is a hunger. And I think that a lot of people, including myself didn't realize how strong that hunger was to meet and hug and touch and see face to face and see expression and do everything face to face, right. Not real time, but face to face in the same place. I mean, if you look around, this was a question that was asked me during the height of the pandemic, because like I get these messages, what do you think's going to happen? And I'm like, how interested are you to go on vacation because I know I really am. And I and I see, having just gotten back from vacation, people are out and people are ready to engage in this thing called life. They're ready to eat at restaurants, and they're ready to take trips, and they're ready to go watch a baseball game. And so I don't foresee that changing for the industry. I think people want to congregate. I've always said I learned more with a drink in my hand in the hotel bar talking with other photographers than I do in almost any seminar or program I've attended.

Gary Pageau  
No, it's true. I mean, that's and that was always like, the strength of the PMA program to was the social aspect, right? I mean, that aspect of it. I mean, I think a lot of industries and conferences are like that, it would just be interesting to see what happens because in the trade show world, you know, clearly there is a lot of stress among the camera manufacturers right to instead of going to every show they were picking choosing which show to go to in the lab, reducing their space for variety of reasons and things like that. So I think when it comes back and I do think these are gonna come back, it is going to be very, very different. I think people I think the model is going to shift a little bit to maybe being they'll actually man To charge more for the conference piece, because there won't be as much trade show to offset the cost.

Lynn Cartia  
Well, and I think that and hopefully this is getting back to what we talked about earlier again, oh, hopefully, can I be in charge of picking people I always say that. You want to know, I had somebody once Gary, who is upset with something w PPI was doing. W PPI had a thing where they had, you can be a rock star, and they use those words, and it was you send in this, this, I don't know three minute tape of why you should be on the W PPI stage and not picking on w PPI they did this. And you why you should be on the W PPI stage. And then they're going to have whoever they have is going to judge it. And they're going to pick the next featured program, give her the next w ppi. And I had somebody who sent me a message, who was livid. Now I was kind of like, yeah, that's that. No, you know, I'm like, you're basing this on a video? Or is there anything else that has to happen? Or angels or experience? Or, you know, can you prove that you are a financially viable, successful business? Or do you just take you at your word, so this guy was upset, he was really upset, and he sent me a message. He's like, Can you believe they're doing this and you sent me the link, and then sheepishly? At the end of the conversation? He said, You know, I would say something, but I still want to be a speaker for them. Dude, what, though? What? So there's, there's there's a lot that needs to go on? I think. And I think that there does have to be changes and hopefully going forward, people will thirst for the real and the true and the honest. And we're going to get rid of this, you know, I'm sure there, there will always be there to some degree, because for sure, probably always has been very

Gary Pageau  
well there's you want to compete, there's a lot of competing interests. That is show, right? I mean, you've got the need of the attendees to get content. There's also need for the exhibitors to share their messages on their new products and services. They're also a need of the conference organizers to somehow make a buck at the end of it, which is not as easy as it sounds everyone thinks putting on a show is easy, but it's not. And so you know, and not a lot of times, those interests aren't always moving in the same direction. That's a challenge for a lot of organizations, especially those who rely like PMA did on, you know, the trade show for the majority of their revenue.

Lynn Cartia  
And that's fair, I come at it more from an educational standpoint. And I don't think I always give enough allowance to like you just said there are there people want to sell their product, you know,

Gary Pageau  
and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean, as a salesperson, you have to agree that selling your product is a good thing. Hey, God bless. No, I agree. Going forward as we draw this to a close, we're gonna see as positives and challenges through 2021.

Lynn Cartia  
I think that that photographers are going to have to and I don't know with the with the vaccine, and you know, the new the new guidelines that are surrounding that, like if you're vaccination wearing masks, during the pandemic, I always thought that the outdoor portrait photographer had it made six feet apart check. Yeah, uncrowded space, check, contact free check. You know, there were there were all those boxes were ticked. But the problem was, is that a large, I don't know, probably half the population was freaked out. So you know, they were like, it's gonna if I take my mask off, and I'm in the middle of the forest, it's gonna jump at me from the trees. You know, they were worried and and people were were definitely freaked out about it. So I think there was hesitation on the public side, as far as generating interest. I think going forward, I look at other industries, I look at the restaurant industry, or the travel industry I look at, we're working differently. We're seeing that we don't need commercial spaces as much. You know, working remotely. I have a family member who works for Zillow. And he's like, yeah, just kind of shut us all down. And then, you know, he was on the west coast, and he's just working from home. Right. So there's a lot of businesses that can do that. I think we're going to get past the point of people being freaked out about it. I do think that that's going to happen, and because we're seeing it more and more as travel begins again, you know, I think that it's going to, it's hard because we saw a lot of people close their businesses during like, I just can't do, I just can't do it. And the businesses that survived through COVID were very strong, but they have to keep implementing, I think that the biggest thing that we do when times are lean, is we tend to pull back on our marketing I got it I got to market less because I got to hold on to that money because I got to you know, I gotta pay rent or I've got to pay this or I've got bills, when it's actually the worst thing you can do, you know, you've got to continue that presence within your community and within your your marketplace. I, you know, I like to think, Gary that we're going to return to business as usual. What that means with the exception of, of retail properties? I don't know if commercial space. Yeah,

Gary Pageau  
that's gonna be the whole different thing. Right is yes, yes, there's so much

Lynn Cartia  
working from home anyway. So I don't know, I never have. So it's kind of hard for me to gauge that. But yeah, I think going forward, if you keep those principles in place, I mean, you should, I would think people are gonna want to celebrate, it's like the roaring 20s, right, we're gonna, we want to do that we were families getting together again, the reunion, we haven't seen each other in three years, or whatever. So people are gonna want to do that. And I think that if we're primed and ready for it, we can take advantage of that.

Gary Pageau  
I think so too. I mean, I'm very optimistic coming out of it, it'll be interesting to see how consumer behavior is changed, right? And that's something we just don't know yet. Right? We have to look at it from a standpoint of, you know, managing our business basics. And, you know, kind of, I was referred as blocking and tackling, right, you know, a lot of businesses look for the homerun, or the touchdown, or the three point shot. And it's really just a lot of the basics, right?

Lynn Cartia  
Oh, it is one step in front of the other day after day, week, after week, year after year. And I think that you you speak to something very, very true is that we want to make these ginormous steps. And when and when it doesn't happen right away. We're like, oh, it must be wrong. And I think God, if I thought something was wrong, because it didn't happen right away, I knew we the joke with marketing is was it can be for you to have marketing doesn't work. You just don't know which 50% it is, right? You got to try the things to know if they work or if they don't. And so you can't assume because this didn't work, that this other thing won't, you know, just just throw in the towel. You know, the notion that every day has to be a great day, and oh my god, I see people on Facebook with their $20,000 order checks people taking my order isn't that I must be doing something wrong. And I'm like, Well, yeah, kind of, but kind of believing what you see on Facebook, you need to stay the course, and and keep those principles in place. So it's more

about being a roadie than being a rock star. It depends if you want to, if you want to do it for lifetime, right, then you'd be ready

to be your career path, that you will look back on 3040 years down the road and say, Man, this put my kids through college and this spot my vacation home. And this allowed me to do these things. And I don't I'm not like that. I'm not like the prosperity gospel here. I'm just saying that if you you run your business, any business, and if and if you run it and you grow it, and you give to it and you have to invest time, I always think it's so goofy when people are like, Oh, wait, did you do yesterday make some money? It was awesome. Like, no, you're sweating, and you're worrying and you're late and you had to reshoot something or someone was too late. You lost the line, you got to do it again. There's and there's a million things to do every day, tons of that kill. And there's the little piddly stuff that just makes you go up to do it. Right. And we don't talk about that a lot. And so I think people think that, well, if it's not smooth sailing, and I keep hitting these roadblocks during you know, during my career during my work, then I must be doing something wrong. And I'm like, no, it means you're doing something. Right.

Gary Pageau  
That's how it's done. Well, thank you, Lynn, for your time and for your wisdom. Hopefully we'll see you in person at an industry event sometime soon. And hope you have a great 2021 Awesome. Thanks, Gary. Thanks for having me on.

Erin Manning  
Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. Three more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.thedeadpixelssociety.com