From Film to Digital: An Industry Evolution with Jerry Grossman, Digital Imaging Reporter

One unexpected phone call changed Jerry Grossman's career path forever, moving him from advertising Charmin toilet paper to promoting Nikon cameras—a shift that would place him at ground zero of photography's most transformative era.

The International Photographic Council (IPC) will host its annual IPC Hall of Fame and Professional Photographer Achievement Awards Luncheon on May 14, 2025. The IPC Service Award honoree, Jerry Grossman is co-owner and Editor-in-Chief of Digital Imaging Reporter. 

In this nostalgic yet insightful conversation,  Grossman takes us through his remarkable journey from Nikon's communications manager to co-founder of Digital Imaging Reporter, sharing firsthand experiences of seismic industry shifts. Remember when digital images were dismissed as inferior to film? Or when increasing from 2 to 3 megapixels was revolutionary? Grossman was there, watching skepticism transform into acceptance as technology rapidly evolved.

The digital revolution brought extraordinary challenges. Camera companies simultaneously sold film cameras while developing digital alternatives, all while the internet emerged as a mysterious new frontier. Grossman recalls being suddenly appointed "Vice President of Internet Development" with the mandate to create Nikon's first website, when most people couldn't even define what a website was.

Perhaps most fascinating is Grossman's perspective on today's photography landscape. After smartphones decimated the point-and-shoot market, he's witnessing Gen Z ironically returning to these cameras because "iPhone pictures are too perfect." This quest for authenticity also drives film's resurgence, highlighting how creativity remains the industry's beating heart despite technological disruption.

Beyond the technology, Grossman's stories reveal the deep personal connections formed across competing companies. Through industry asso

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Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. Today, we're joined by oh my gosh Jerry Grossman, co-founder and editor-in-chief of Digital Imaging. Reporter Jerry and I have known each other since like day one of the-.

Jerry Grossman: 0:34

A hundred years, I think.

Gary Pageau: 0:36

A hundred years, yes, since the dawn of photography, glass plates and all that. No, I'm just joking. But no, Jerry and I have gone back many years. We want to talk a little bit about kind of how the industry has changed over the years. He's been working for manufacturers, he's been on the publication side and now he's in higher education actually, and he's going to be getting the International Photographic Council Distinguished Service Award next month and I can talk a little bit about that. But, J erry, how are you doing?

Jerry Grossman: 1:07

I'm doing great, Gary, how are you doing?

Gary Pageau: 1:09

Always fun to talk to you Fabulous, fabulous, and it's always good to see old friends. It seems like there's fewer and fewer places to see old friends these days, with kind of the show thing going away and publications going away and things like that. So I knew, I remember you and I met back in Nikon days when you were at Nikon. How did you get started at Nikon? How did you start your career in the industry?

Jerry Grossman: 1:31

It's a funny story. I think it's funny anyway. I was in the advertising business early on working on Stanley Tools and Crest Toothpaste and all that. So I'm working on a Charmin toilet paper account and I get a call from headhunter and I didn't even know the phone rings. I pick it up. There's an opening on the Nikon camera Scalli McCabe Sloves, which was a great ad agency. I literally never met this guy, but it sounded like an amazing thing. So I'm thinking about it. I'm going well, please don't squeeze a Charmin. We take the world's greatest pictures. What sounds better?

Jerry Grossman: 2:03

And I think we take the world's greatest pictures sounds a lot better. So I ended up going on the interview. I got the job. It was for, I think, account supervisor on an Nikon account, and that's literally how I started my career in the industry, and I always tell people, including my students, I said you never know when the phone rings who's going to be on the other end and how it's going to affect your life. If I was in the bathroom when that phone rang, I might have never been in this industry,

Gary Pageau: 2:29

is it like testing the Charmin product, for example.

Jerry Grossman: 2:33

For example. Yes, that's a perfect example. That's how it started and I was on the Nikon account for about a year and a half or so and then the person who had the general manager of communications job at Nikon was leaving Steve Jarman. I don't know if you remember Steve years ago still a very good friend, and he recommended me for his spot. So then they hired me over there and then that was sort of the beginning of my career in the photo industry.

Gary Pageau: 3:00

So did you have any interest in photography other than being a snapshooter back then? Did you have any background at photography other than being a snapshooter? Back then did you have any background at all you know what?

Jerry Grossman: 3:07

not, not really. I was. You know I was. I guess you can call me a photo enthusiast, but I I really wasn't. I think I had an slr. You know, I, I was just I. I was very, you know, I was always on the creative side. So I took a lot of pictures. But there was something about hearing nikon and then I ran out, bought a copy of popular photography magazine so this amazing spread for the NAA, if you remember that shot by Michael O'Neill and I said you know what? This is what I want to do. This is so creative and there was such a, it was such a cool brand and that I couldn't resist. So I took the job and I stayed on the business side, but I learned so much about photography, obviously by just being around it. It changed my life in a very positive way.

Gary Pageau: 3:49

And you really you know, back then it was obviously film and it was and it was a.

Gary Pageau: 3:56

It was a different world because you really had the, the SLR, not DSLR, just SLR. Thirty five millimeter was really the epitome of photography back then. So there was a huge amount of interest in an. Autofocus was coming in pretty strong. It was kind of changing the game because different manufacturers had different strategies of where they were going to put their autofocus and you know that changed things up. It was kind of controversial back then. You know whether you put it in the lens or you put it in the body or wherever, you know that kind of thing.

Jerry Grossman: 4:25

Exactly.

Gary Pageau: 4:25

What was that like in that Cause? That was a pretty vibrant area, kind of high tech even.

Jerry Grossman: 4:31

It was crazy. Cause? Cause a, there was no digital and B, by the way, there was no internet Right, Everything was changing. Autofocus was a huge deal, exposure control was a huge deal. There was a real fight between Nikon and Canon, obviously, which I think continues today. It was an exciting time. Digital was just coming around. That was like in the I guess, the mid to late 90s, and I remember sitting in meetings when it first started where we'd see these digital images and my old friend, richard Lepinto, who I'm sure you hear him as well, would say, yeah, it's digital, but it'll never be the same thing as film.

Gary Pageau: 5:08

Well, everyone thought that, right yeah.

Jerry Grossman: 5:11

And then, like six months later, it was like, oh, these images are pretty good, but it'll never be film, but it's pretty good. And then there was this arc right. And then it was like about the same. And then just digital kept getting better and better and better. It was a crazy time because we were selling film cameras. Obviously we were selling digital cameras. We were trying to get into that. We were selling point-and-shoot digital cameras. We were watching technology change in front of our eyes. It was exhilarating.

Gary Pageau: 5:37

And then one of the things that was interesting was Nikon, back then actually, when it came to compact cameras and early digital, were pretty innovative. I mean, they were trying, you know, rotating lenses and all kinds of interesting designs, you know, which were very different from what the other compact companies were doing. What was that like? I mean, because obviously you're getting this stuff from Japan, you know, what was the design ideas like back then? What was driving that?

Jerry Grossman: 6:05

If you remember, and I'm sure you do, um, it started to be all about the megapixels at first, right, right yeah, yeah we had our cool pics cameras and and everyone was sort of competing on on that side of it right it was, who can make the better point and shoot. And we had a uh, I forget what it was called the coolpix, something that um had a pen you could draw on. It was really early on. I forget the name of it. It was called the Coolpix, something that had a pen you could draw on. It was really early on. I forget the name of it. It was the Megapixel Wars. Right, it was every year. It was like, well, now, two megapixels, three megapixels.

Jerry Grossman: 6:31

There was also this fight, as I'm thinking about it, of do we include the eight megabyte compact flash card in the camera? Right, because if we do, we have to charge a little more. If we don't, then when the kids CoolPix their camera on christmas day, they can't take a picture, right, so, like what, what do we do? So that was a fight that sort of, you know, evolved over into, you know, let's not include it anymore. I think once it reached like 60 megabytes, it got too big or something like that. So it was, um, you know, all that stuff was happening. It was again another exhilarating time, because sales were going crazy. Oh yeah, right. Every year, every company was getting bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger.

Gary Pageau: 7:15

Oh yeah, Plus, you had, you know, all kinds of brands that were getting, you know, being introduced to the market, or they were being reinvigorated, where they just, you know, digital camera companies were just popping up out of nowhere.

Jerry Grossman: 7:27

Exactly, and the major brands were sort of controlling the market in a pretty good way. But it was a crazy time and, by the way, at the same time. So I was the general manager of communications and there was this thing called the internet sort of starting to happen, right. And my boss came to me. He said, Jerry, you are now the vice president of internet development. And I was like okay, what does that mean? And he said you need to get a website up in about the next six months. I was like all right, what's a website?

Gary Pageau: 7:55

because no one knew what that was yeah, exactly what's a website?

Jerry Grossman: 7:58

everyone wanted one, but no one. No one knew what it was and our challenge, interestingly, was Nikon was a consumer brand and also a medical device brand. We made microscopes and instruments and for the first time we were charged with combining the brand into one internet site because we couldn't do one without the other. So from a branding standpoint that was sort of fun and interesting and cool.

Gary Pageau: 8:24

And again, you're not using any of the modern technology that we're all used to right. Everyone was inventing that stuff as it was happening, right? So the whole idea of having you know different pages for different divisions and how that was going to look, and that must have been almost a nightmare.

Jerry Grossman: 8:37

Totally different, and also the people that you were working with. Whoever knew the coolest words were the people you thought were the smartest people in the room Right, Internet, this internet, that. But I have to tell you I spent a lot of time in San Francisco. It was really, as I think about my career looking back, it was one of the most you know the coolest time, because all this technology was happening both on the product side on the Internet side, and no one knew what was coming next. Yeah, and that was fantastic.

Gary Pageau: 9:06

You know it's funny because when you talk about things like that, uh, you know people today who didn't grow up in that area. Right, and you know there wasn't the belief necessarily that film was going to get replaced. Right, because no one could really see the future and certainly no one expected. You know, smartphones and things like it. Maybe somebody did Right, but not, you know, in the photographic industry, which at the time was considered pretty high tech, right, and the belief never was. You know, at first, you know that that people are going to change their behavior as radically as they did. I think that was. I think the thing that that surprised most people was just the volume of pictures just exploded that people were taking.

Jerry Grossman: 9:49

Exactly. Well, yeah, because you know, all of a sudden, when you took a picture, you didn't take one, you took three or four or five, because you weren't paying for film anymore. Right, the photographic behavior changed, right, Right, people all of a sudden thought, well, you know, the other part of it was well, I don't really need an SLR anymore because I got this sort of point and shoot digital camera that you know, that's taking pretty good pictures now.

Gary Pageau: 10:21

So that changed.

Jerry Grossman: 10:22

And then I think the most shocking and happened years later. If someone had said to you, you know, kodak's going to go out of business, you'd be like, no, they're not Right. But they kind of missed the boat by sort of hanging on to film for a long time because they had to. There were so many things happening and, like you just said before, the smartphone is creeping up. Oh, it's taking pretty good pictures. Yeah, but people are always going to want cameras. Yeah, but it's taking better and better. And I remember Gary being in a conference with you and you may have even been on stage with me, I'm not sure and one of the camera companies and maybe maybe it was Nokia said in five years we're going to be able to take 12 megapixel pictures on a phone. And we're like, no, you're not. Who was that Right? Right, that's never going to happen.

Gary Pageau: 11:04

And you know, I've never seen ever right exactly so well, and you know they're just assumptions that people made back. I mean, you mentioned kodak and I don't want to, you know, turn this into a. You know what went wrong with kodak, because I've done that podcast a couple times and it's go back to those listener.

Gary Pageau: 11:21

But you know the thing was is people really didn't? You know the misconception there was. You know the thing was is people really didn't? You know the misconception there was. You know Kodak was a chemicals company. They were not a consumer electronics company. They were trying to leave from being a chemicals company to being a consumer electronics company and that just the margins were different. It's a different business and I don't think anyone expected especially the folks at Kodak that people weren't going to print as much. I really thought they kind of thought well, people are still going to want that physical print, they're going to print more and no matter how I mean they tried I don't know how many different things to make it easier to make the print pictures right. The kiosks became super easy. They had buttons on the camera, one button print and it, just it, just the demand wasn't there. People, once they saw the picture, didn't need to print everything. So the printing business has changed a lot.

Jerry Grossman: 12:10

It's become more of a creative expression instead of I need to have that picture

Gary Pageau: 12:12

no, that's true, .

Gary Pageau: 12:12

we were literally changing consumers' behavior in photography in so many different ways, right Going from film to digital, going from point and shoot cameras, you know, to smartphones, trying to keep DSLRs relevant at the same time yeah, sure, you know, the technology just kept coming and coming. What's amazing about this industry is, you know all the major manufacturers and you know way, way many more companies than that continue to push the envelope on technology in so many different ways, and to me, that always impressed me like crazy. That just that kept the industry going. When, if you think about it, when the point and shoot digital market crashed it isn't like the industry crashed. The industry got a lot smaller. You know sales, sales got smaller, but we you know the, the industry and the manufacturers and the technology just kept getting better and better.

Gary Pageau: 13:03

Yeah, so well, I mean that is a way of looking at it. I mean, sure, the $100 point-and-shoot market's kind of gone because it's all in the phone, but you've got now. You've got, you know, Fuji, Canon, Nikon, Leica, all these people having these, really, you know wonderful compact cameras. It's not even getting a mirrorless or DSLRs, but it just sees compact range finder type cameras. Or even Nikon just came out with a super zoom that they're addressing the market with. You know, products that cost a lot more but they can demonstrate that they're worth it, right.

Jerry Grossman: 13:35

Here's what's interesting I'm teaching a class of 20 year olds in public relations and I talk to them all the time because I want to hear what's going on. And there has been this trend lately of those kids Gen Zers, if you will buying point and shoot digital cameras again and wanting to use them. And I asked my class what is it about that? They said this is great. They said when you're using an iPhone, the pictures are too good, they're too perfect. Right? I swear to god, it's like. It's like we want. We want to, you know, take pictures that aren't perfect, that maybe show a different kind of mood.

Gary Pageau: 14:11

So maybe there's a little bit of a comeback there, but I thought that was uh well, well, they want that authenticity, right, and that's and that's driving the whole re-emergence of film that we're seeing, right, that exactly getting those imperfect pictures are slightly out of focus or, you know, they're even like distressing the necks and they're you know, all these people selling outdated film because they want it to look weird. You know, and right, you know, and it's funny because I'm I'm from the world where we tried to get away from all that it's like you want to make the picture on the film as perfect as possible in the camera, get the great exposure, get the thing you want in focus and all the other stuff, and now it's like, well, we want it to be a little imperfect.

Jerry Grossman: 14:48

Right, you really have to. You know, as a marketing person, you really have to listen to the new generation. You can't just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing it. I think that's the perfect lesson of they're looking at what we threw in the garbage, they're looking at film, they're looking at point and shoot cameras and they're saying you know what, there's something going on here. So you know what? If it continues to drive the interest in photography which I think we haven't really mentioned, but I think that phones absolutely did that. You know people that never took pictures before, we're now taking pictures every minute of every day. Yeah, it's been a crazy industry. I mean, as we're talking and where we're living, it it's. It's been a crazy. You know, 25, 30 years.

Gary Pageau: 15:30

It really has, and really photography. However, whatever your description of that is right, whether it's, you know, smartphones, mirrorless cameras, action cameras you know we haven't even talked about, you know, all the some of the, all the different kinds of cameras there are now, right, it's really more popular than ever. It's just we don't have the camera. Companies aren't really leading the charge in a lot of ways on that, right, and so you know it'll be interesting to see why, or what happens, you know, can they make a mirrorless camera, you know, be more like a phone, like?

Gary Pageau: 16:06

I've always been surprised why, for example, Canon or Nikon doesn't come up with a camera body that you can put a, you know, a camera in it, right, so it basically is wireless to transmit directly from the camera and who knows, I mean I'm sure there's probably a technical reason why they can't from the camera, and I'm who knows, I mean I'm sure there's probably a technical reason why they can't, but it's just one of those things where I think, you know, there's a lot of innovation happening, but it's not just coming from the big three or the big exactly, yeah, because it's, it's, they're advanced digital technical companies that can, that can contribute all different kinds of thinking that maybe the camera companies you know never had to do, obviously, now that they're doing it more and more.

Jerry Grossman: 16:47

I mean, if you think about it, the engineers and the camera companies are brilliant, right, the things that they did over the years just inventing different technologies. I remember when Red Eye Reduction was invented, my friend Eran Steinberg, remember, Eran, yeah, great guy. You know, he was kind of the guy that put that on the map when, like, oh, wow, you take a picture and there's no red eye anymore that was that was back in the 35 millimeter point shooting. Oh, yeah, exactly. But but you know there's, like I said, there's always been technology like coming and coming and coming and you know I'm impressed and proud of all those companies that didn't give up and said, no, we're going to make things better, right, and they and they continue to do it.

Gary Pageau: 17:31

Oh, absolutely. I mean honestly, if you look at some of the bigger companies, you know as cameras have become lesser part of their business Right, because you know Canon's a copier company and nikon's a medical instruments company and sony's an entertainment company, right, and it's still in the business and they're still innovating. Right, they're still doing some amazing things with the products, beyond what you know most of us could recommend or remember that you know, with terms of like, what you can shoot with isos. Now, I mean just I remember when, like 800 iso was pushing it right yeah, right, right now that's like a tiny number.

Jerry Grossman: 18:04

I know, right, all those companies, you know, the cream always rises to the top and and all those companies have just, especially, uh, sony has been very impressive. I mean, they kind of, you know, started mirrorless. They said we're going to be mirrorless, we're going to do mirrorless and, like you just said, they were an entertainment company but decided to put, you know, all their eggs and all the camera eggs in that basket and it's paid off.

Gary Pageau: 18:33

It's really paid off for them. Yeah, it's been very impressive mic on right and it was doing wonderful things and then you said I want to take a risk and I want to do something else. So what was that like when you took over uh, rudy and ed's publication?

Jerry Grossman: 18:51

first you got to say who that is and what that was and how that came about exactly, rudy mask and ed wagner were, um, two guys in the publishing industry that had been there for a thousand years. They owned PTN. They had a lot of different magazines. I was an icon. There was a change in management. My dad had always said to me he had his own business. He said you have to have your own business one day, because that's really changed your life. So all that's happening.

Jerry Grossman: 19:18

I call up Ed Wagner. I'll never forget it. I said Ed, he had sold PTN and started Photo Industry Reporter in 1993 with Rudy and it wasn't a good looking magazine but he was out there trying to make a buck and all that. So I called him up. I said Ed, if you ever want to sell your magazine, let me know because I might be interested. He said, and I quoted. I quoted, said jerry, I'm 85 years old. He goes, let's have lunch this week. I said okay, so had lunch. Um, I had, you know I.

Jerry Grossman: 19:52

I was pretty confident that I could run a magazine from the edit side. I'd been the editor of nikon world magazine when I was at nikon, so I kind got it. I needed a person to sell advertising and I had a friend Allan Levine was working at Golf Digest at the time and I called him. I said, Al, I have this sort of idea about buying this magazine. Let's talk about it. He came over, he looked at the magazine and said what are you kidding me? I said, no, no, no, it was not pretty. It was not pretty. It was but. And I said, but, we could do something here. And he said, all right, let's do it. We pulled our money. We bought the magazine in 2005 as Photo Industry Reporter. We ended up changing it to Digital Imaging Reporter and I think around 2009 to 2010. And we turned it. You know, Ed's magazine was black and white on crappy paper. We turned it into a you know kind of a good looking magazine.

Gary Pageau: 20:44

It was exciting.

Jerry Grossman: 20:44

And I have to tell you that the thing that sort of I still think about is the support. You know, when I left Nikon after 12 or 13 years, I was always the Nikon guy. But the support that I got from the whole industry, from my former enemies, now friends at Canon and Sony and Pentax and Ricoh, and all those guys sort of said you know what, we're going to help this guy out and I'll never forget it. I'm always grateful for it. But it started kind of a new career of being in the publishing business. There weren't a lot of trade magazines left.

Gary Pageau: 21:21

And hey, now we were there oh.

Jerry Grossman: 21:23

I'm sorry. PMA Magazine was absolutely there. One of our foremost competitors, that's right.

Gary Pageau: 21:28

Well, we almost merged at one point. That's like an untold story. I don't know if we can get into that one, but we almost merged our publications at one point.

Jerry Grossman: 21:35

That's true. We did talk about that a little bit.

Gary Pageau: 21:38

And then, of course, there was Picture Business. That was out there, picture Business with Doris Burke was, it Was that it was Picture Business. Mike McEnany was running that.

Jerry Grossman: 21:48

Oh, that's right, Mike was doing that. They were right, it was right.

Gary Pageau: 21:52

But you're right, there wasn't a lot right, there wasn't a lot. There used to be a ton. Oh, photographic processing and all yeah.

Jerry Grossman: 22:00

Ed and Rudy used to like invent magazines every other week and there was a lot of advertising dollars. It was all good. And, you know, our kind of real promise was the PMA show. Right, we were going to do the dailies, we were going to do that. Really great revenue, great time. And then, you know, things went well. I mean, we held on for about 20 years, which I'm very proud of, and I owe a lot to the industry for always supporting us, always appreciating us, because we ended up being pretty much the you know, the only game in town. At the end, look, the industry got smaller. You know, the dealer base got smaller, but there was always a need. I thought, thought for a publication that supported the dealers, that talked about the business. That was our focus. That's what we always tried to do. We tried to be honest with everyone and, uh, you know, I'm kind of proud that it all happened. It was a cool time yeah, I mean it was.

Gary Pageau: 22:53

You know you were guys were a solid competitor and you know that was. That was always one of the things where you know the world was big enough. It was PMA world where you know you could come in and do your daily and I think somebody else tried to daily once or twice and and there was plenty to go around. I mean our show issues were monsters because of the advertising back then and you know just, the world changed. You know I mean that was just the reality of you know the. The show got smaller, the dealer base started getting smaller, the. You know there was the stuff that took to process pictures that you know took up a bunch of advertising in our books was, you know, all the gadgets you needed to process film, all the film processor, film leaders and all that kind of stuff.

Gary Pageau: 23:34

Yeah, all went away and you know, just there wasn't, there wasn't the base there right

Jerry Grossman: 23:39

it was harder, harder and harder after I find the advertisers, but

Jerry Grossman: 23:43

But I do have to commend, while I'm in this world, the photo dealers.

Gary Pageau: 23:48

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Jerry Grossman: 23:49

Because you know they're like the best people, they're the most committed. They, you know they saw their businesses start to dwindle when the phones came out and all that, but they were always committed to photography and you know a lot of them obviously went out of business. A lot of them, people aged out who you know, own businesses. But as I understand it now and as I hear now, people you know, photo dealers are starting to grow again. People are starting to open new businesses and I think that's fantastic. But I always I appreciate it. I really love the people in the industry.

Gary Pageau: 24:23

Oh yeah, I mean, that's what keeps me in it honestly is you mean I love going to the pro convention and IPI and it's just, you know, they're just people who care about their business. They care about their communities. They're running smart businesses, they're making great decisions and, you know, when you really go to a pro conference, you just see the best of the best, who are so creative.

Jerry Grossman: 24:48

Yeah, exactly, and what they do and so unique and and just, you know it look, it's a it's a quote-unquote small business, but it's. It takes so much to run something like that and there are so many success stories and so many stories of you know families third, second generation, third generation that that continue to be, um, you know, committed to the business. So I, I have to, I have to take my hat off to them.

Gary Pageau: 25:12

I know I couldn't do it. I don't think I could run a camera store and I think it would be. I mean just what it takes to do something like that in terms of knowing how to buy, when to buy, negotiate terms, deal with rebates, all those crazy things that, because the camera industry is really kind of the hardware business, is super hard because there's not much margin there. So you've got to really know what you're doing and and those guys definitely do and women there's obviously female dealers.

Gary Pageau: 25:38

When I say guys, it's a generic thing, right, exactly exactly yeah, no, they are really proud of them so, but then as part of that evolution in your career, you also were involved with the industry association for the manufacturers, the PMDA. Can you talk a little bit about how you got involved with PMDA?

Jerry Grossman: 25:57

Absolutely. When I bought the magazine I thought, all right, it's time to be on the board. I was offered a spot on the board when I was at Nikon, but I just I wasn't ready for it, I didn't think. But when I had my business I was, like's, here's a place to sort of meet all the people that used to not be my competitors, etc. Etc. I ended up being the executive director and we did some great stuff. One thing we did was, um, we invented a program called portraits of love, yeah, where we asked photographers to take pictures of military families and then we sent those images to soldiers all around the world and, right, me and, uh, michelle tramitano, who was working with me as well, kind of built that up as as big give back program yeah, that was a great program it really was.

Jerry Grossman: 26:43

It was it. It made us feel great and, um, you know, kudos to fuji for helping us out on that. And then we also did the you know pmda awards dinner every year, where we we did a photographer of the year and an industry leader of the year and all that and had our big parties in vegas and all that. But the cool thing about pma pnda as well is, you know, those were opportunities to get people together in the industry to talk to each other, right and and it's so valuable. And so after that happened, pma kind of went away.

Jerry Grossman: 27:14

Unfortunately, PMDA sort of was suffering a little bit. So we started on the uh imaging alliance, right, which the thought on that was you know, why should we have a manufacturer's uh trade association and a retailer deals trade association? Why don't we put it together, right? So we started the Imaging Alliance, invited both dealers and manufacturers to it, and you know it was a great. It was just a great opportunity to once every two months, sit around a table, talk about the industry, talk about give back programs, which we did a few of them. And you know I kept that going. I was executive director. We probably kept that going. I was executive director there. We probably kept that going about four or five years and then COVID hit and it got it got harder to keep it going. But but that whole notion of trade associations that get people together, PMDA used to have back in the I guess, the early 2000s, maybe the 90s, a cocktail party every month in New York City .

Gary Pageau: 28:12

Get together, have a few drinks, have a dinner yeah, I used to come in for those almost every month.

Jerry Grossman: 28:17

I'd be pma guy going to the pmda meeting almost every month yeah, and and they were great and and that you know that whole notion of especially after covid. You know where people figured out that they could do a zoom, that they don't have to get together, they don't have to see each other. The ability to get into a room, put the whole industry together just to talk, just to be friends, just to talk about the challenges. Um, I was a big believer in that. So my, my whole PMDA imaging Alliance um run was was really, really a great way for me to give back anyway. So that was a a very fulfilling part of my, um, my career, which I I kind of miss now. Like you, you're, you're out there doing it. Still, I'm not doing it as much and I'm just seeing the people. I'm just just, you know, yeah.

Jerry Grossman: 29:07

I mean that's keeping the friendships wrong.

Gary Pageau: 29:09

I mean it because it is how people do business. I mean, that's, you know reason why you know, when you go to these conferences pro ipi, etc. Um, you know, hans harman singh, visual first is another one, right, the people. I say the value of those events is in addition to the content, is is mostly the networking interaction. So anytime.

Jerry Grossman: 29:28

Yep, no, it's been. Um, it's been a long time anyway.

Gary Pageau: 29:30

But it is a people business. I mean, that's what I kind of miss about the industry is, even though we have these enormous companies right Nikon, olympus, fuji, canon, sony, kodak they're always had great people in them, right? You could go to an event or a conference, a PMDA Hall of Fame Awards night dinner, and you could just see people all over the world who every other night of the year, every other day of the year, they're doing battle in the marketplace, right, but at that event they're just, you know, they put the swords down and they're all got their arms around each other.

Jerry Grossman: 30:00

They're all in the same boat and they all respected each other. They all respected you know how hard it was to run these businesses. Yeah, and, and how? Much time you spent away from your families and you know, traveling to japan and traveling to all these trade shows and, like you said, you know everyone like each other, everyone, not everyone, but pretty much.

Gary Pageau: 30:21

There's always that one guy at that company, right, we won't mention that one exactly we won't go there.

Jerry Grossman: 30:27

But um, yeah, it was. Um, I've always said it's. It was such a great industry to grow up in and to to sort of be part of what my career was. And you know, from that one phone call from the guy I didn't even know to, you know, all these years of just being able to be a part of, you know, not just a great business, but we haven't really spoken about this the creativity.

Gary Pageau: 30:51

Oh yeah.

Jerry Grossman: 30:52

You know the creativity of photography by itself. You know the fact that everyone got to work with all these great photographers and whether they're portrait or landscape or travel, whatever, you know, everyone in the industry was creative in their own right, and there aren't a lot of industries. If you're an accountant, that's not happening Right, but if you're in the imaging business imaging industry it's happening all around you, and I think that's what really kept people in the industry for a long time.

Gary Pageau: 31:20

Yeah Well, it drew a lot of creative people, just because, if you wanted to be visual, that was the way to do it. And now you, you know it's kind of spread out ever and now you know, with heck, with ai, you could you only have to get out in the field to make a picture. Right, you could just yeah isn't that scary?

Gary Pageau: 31:34

I mean, I, I, you know, I don't know, I don't know, like you know, it's interesting I gotta look back on it, as you know kind of the fear people had with when photoshop came in and it didn't kill the industry. So you know, I could, you, I can, you know I could be super naive, but I think it was going back to our conversation earlier. Maybe it'll be.

Jerry Grossman: 31:54

Authentic pictures are going to be even more meaningful now because because of things like that, yeah, and and you know what, I don't think people in industry ever want to lose the creativity of it, and if you know, you could be creative using AI as well. It's kind of interesting. But I think the whole nature of photography, I think that's going to always be around. I think people will always enjoy taking pictures. I think people always enjoy capturing the moment when things happen. And you see it all the time here after dinner and it's like let's take a picture of the four of us around a dinner table you never did that before.

Jerry Grossman: 32:32

And that's going to always happen.

Gary Pageau: 32:36

Well, but then the question is it gets to the business side, right. How does the everyday person make a couple bucks out of that picture, right, and that's always going to be a challenge going forward.

Jerry Grossman: 32:44

Well, that's true too.

Gary Pageau: 32:46

So let's talk a little bit about the IPC luncheon. Can you give us the details on that and where can people go to find out more about it and see you get your award?

Jerry Grossman: 32:59

Absolutely so. Oh God, I should have the date. I think it's May 14th. It is indeed. It is May 14th. It's become sort of the annual trade luncheon, if you will. It's a great organization. They promote photography all around the world. It's happening at the United Nations. I am lucky enough to be the recipient of the Distinguished Service Award for my XXX number of years in the industry and I won't say what it is, but because it's, because it's scary, but um it should be numerous other people being uh given awards too.

Gary Pageau: 33:36

I mean, there's, you ,J oe mcnally, a lot of named photographers and luminaries will be there as well exactly, it's not.

Jerry Grossman: 33:44

you're right, I'm not the only draw, is what you're saying.

Gary Pageau: 33:46

Thank you, gary, I appreciate that you alone are sufficient, I'm sure, but there are others yeah right.

Jerry Grossman: 33:52

If you go to wwwipcphotoorg, you get your tickets. It's a really nice event and, like I said, it's one of the kind of last bastions of trade association get together where people could just talk about things. I really appreciate what photography is all about, but it's a fantastic organization. I have to thank Kathy Schneider-Jello, who was probably one of the first people to call me when I got to Scalli McCabe Sloves years ago. She was running advertising for Peterson's Photographic, if you remember that, and she, even though she's moved out to Florida and she's selling high-end cars, she still every year puts this program together and does an amazing job. So I thank her for it. And, yeah, if people want to come and hang out and have a nice lunch and it'd be great to see everyone there

Gary Pageau: 34:40

Well, great, Jerry, it's been great talking to you and reconnecting and reminiscing

Gary Pageau: 34:44

Hope to see you at May 14th at the United Nations. Congratulations on your award.

Jerry Grossman: 34:49

Thank you. Well, thank you, Gary, and you know what Thank you for. I'm sure people say this every once in a while, but thank you for all you've done in the industry. You're the guy that has kept the light on for a long time, and I know you have a lot more years left than anything that I could do to help you. Please let me know, and I really appreciate this too. This was a lot of fun. It's a lot of fun reminiscing with you.

Gary Pageau: 35:08

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Jerry. Take care, all right, take care, bye-bye.

Erin Manning: 35:13

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