Lead Yourself First: The Foundation of Effective Leadership with Dr. Kevin Mays

What does true leadership look like in today's business landscape? Dr. Kevin Mays reveals it begins not with controlling others, but with mastering yourself. His journey from aerospace engineering student to leadership consultant offers profound insights on building organizations that thrive beyond their founders.

Dr. Mays challenges conventional wisdom about leadership, arguing that before you can effectively lead others, you must first understand your thought patterns and intentions. This self-awareness forms the foundation for creating environments where people feel empowered to bring their best selves to work.

Many business owners fall victim to "founder syndrome," where their tight grip on every aspect of operations prevents growth and stifles talented employees. As Dr. Mays explains, "Too many leaders focus on the next quarter at the expense of the human beings actually doing the work." The result? Disengagement, high turnover of top talent, and ultimately, a business that depends entirely on its owner.

For those looking toward retirement or succession planning, Dr. Mays offers practical advice: Document your processes, clarify roles and responsibilities, develop your team members, and most importantly - let go of control. "Your business should be working for you," he emphasizes, "not you working for your business."

The conversation explores how business owners can shift from being "in the weeds" to taking a strategic position at the "top of the mountain," guiding the organization's future direction while empowering others to handle day-to-day operations. This transiti

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Chapters

• 11:47 [Ad] Real Talk About Marketing
• 12:35 (Cont.) Lead Yourself First: The Foundation of Effective Leadership with Dr. Kevin Mays

Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Dr Kevin Mays of Mays Leadership, and he's just down the road in Rockford, Michigan. Hello, Dr Mays, how are you today? Or can I call you Kevin? Are you that kind of guy you can?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 0:34

call me Kevin, absolutely, and it's just great to talk to a fellow Michigander Fantastic.

Gary Pageau: 0:41

We all got to stick together in today's world world, but we're not here to talk about being a Michigander, which is a great thing. We're going to talk about something that's even better, which is leadership and the various forms of leadership and how leadership can drive your business and beyond. So, first of all, when I, when I have a guest that talks about a topic like that, I always like to ask them what is your definition of leadership in your context? What do you mean by that?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 1:07

for me, the foundational first step is this idea that before you can even think about leading others, you have to lead yourself. So leadership at a core level is about thinking with conscious intention and behaving in a way that's aligned with a deeper vision of how you want to show up and the influence you want to have. So it's really about how you influence. But it starts at home, internally, we spend so much of our time learning how to manage and manipulate the world around us. Our education system is based around how you manage other things. External leadership at a core level is a very internal process. It involves, you know, requires self-awareness and intention, presence and vision. With those four elements you can begin to lead, but it starts with understanding how your mind works.

Gary Pageau: 2:02

And so how did you get into the leadership game? Were you like 10 or 12 and you said I really want to be a doctor of leadership studies, or what was your background leading up to this is the question.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 2:17

I'm actually a recovering psychologist, okay, and I did that work for years and I found myself in that role Originally. I started out in aerospace and I was studying aerospace engineering and I was designing paint spray booth systems for the car companies. When I was young, went in to study aeronautical engineering and I remember that I loved it. The school counselor told me you know, you probably won't like this aerospace business. It's a lot of specific, meticulous details and that's not really how your personality seems to work according to the tests. So, but being a 17 year old kid who nobody's going to tell him anything, I said forget that. I'm going to go do what I want to do. I'm going to study aerospace, and you know what? I'm going to be an airline pilot so I can travel the world.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 3:00

And I remember very clearly I was learning to fly Cessnas, bored as all get up with practicing straight and level flight. So I would get this airplane and all these funky upside down positions. And Cessnas are made to be innately stable. If you let go of the wheel, it's going to correct itself. Well, as a 17 year old who knew everything, I overcorrected, came out of the spin, I was in upside down and had to actually power all the way through it until at one point I was aimed straight at the ground, hitting the never exceed speed, pulling the wheel back, trying to lift the nose and the horns going off the stall horn and the blood's rushing out of my head and life flashed before my eyes and I had this realization Kevin, this is not the career path for you.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 3:47

I ran with an airplane, sold my car, bought a motorcycle and took off across the country and I ended up just stretching out my 20s for 20 years and I just really traveled around the country and kept going back to school, and back to school, and back to school, until I was eventually running organizations and studying the stuff I was. You know, I went from a psychologist leading the organizations and then worked for consulting firms and then ultimately I was like an executive consultant for a large bank, and it just things seem to fall that way. So it was never like a predetermined plan, but it was based on a lot of the, a lot of the hard fought wisdom I gained along the way of how not to do things.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 4:29

Don't put your sets on an upside-down tailspin, right, it does not get you Well, if you live through it, it might help you open up and do some things differently. Now, was that a solo flight or did you have an instructor? That was solo? No, that was solo. It was my first solo flights. One of the first things the flight instructor showed me when we went out was how to do these stalls and spins. I'm like, oh, this is fun. So when I was soloing, that's all I would do. I'd go out there and get the airplane upside down and you know, these things have gravity feed fuel tanks, so they're not designed to be upside down. The engine will stall, but I didn't care. You're not going to tell me anything.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 5:05

Well, yeah, when you're 17 years old, you know everything, right, a near death experience will change you, and this is the thing I find with leaders today is that we get stuck in knowing that we're right, doing the same thing we've always done, and wondering why we're not getting the next result. So what traditional, like founder syndrome? Right, somebody starts a business and they're the expert, they're the ones who know how to run the business and so it's always their way. They bring great talent in, but the talent feels the brightest people they brought in are jumping ship because the founder really refuses to allow the staff to make decisions and actually exercise their wisdom.

Gary Pageau: 5:54

So when you talk about leadership like that, I think a key component of leadership from the discussions I've had with various people on the podcast over the years is it really comes down to a trust issue. I think it comes down to you know. Like you said, you know better, or I know better, right as the leader, so you just need to follow my lead, when in reality could be the other way around. You have to trust the people who you've hired, who have the expertise to actually show you or give you the information you need to make decisions, which is what a leader does, and make decisions not necessarily do things.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 6:32

Well, and I love it. Too many leaders get stuck in the doing things and it really comes back to the original question you asked what is leadership? A it starts within. You have to lead yourself first. And B in my mind, it's really about creating an environment of engagement. That is when people come and they bring their A game. You're going to create a phenomenal organization.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 6:50

I worked with one leader who was such a visionary I remember this. He had this vision of 20 years and he became a good confidant. I became a good confidant of his he told me one day. He said, kevin, you know, I work with a bunch of idiots. I said well, why'd you hire him? He said they weren't idiots. When I hired him. Huh, this guy. So he thought everybody was an idiot. And guess how they were showing up? They were disengaged, they didn't care, they feel unvalidated, they weren't bringing their A game problems, they were just waiting to be told what to do. And guess what? You ended up with A mediocre organization, not one that was thriving. That's the hardest thing for leaders and founders is to be able to get out of their own way and create an environment that actually elevates others. The hard thing is that they make their decisions. Others will make different decisions and make decisions differently. How do you learn to allow yourself to let go of control to make decisions differently? How do you learn to allow yourself to let go of control?

Gary Pageau: 7:45

But on the other hand, you also have to be plugged in enough to know when they are making a bad decision. They may have to step in and correct, but I think allowing people to make decisions gives you the validation to make corrections right Because you've given them a lot of positive feedback, given a lot of positive instructions. So when you do have to come back and say, you know, bob, I wouldn't sell that like that.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 8:10

Let's try it this way.

Gary Pageau: 8:11

You've got, you've got background to do that.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 8:14

In my mind too, it's not only about giving that kind of direction, which is, of course, useful sometimes, but asking the right questions right. What do you think the impact is if you do that? What are we missing here?

Gary Pageau: 8:24

OK, so frame it as a question, so maybe you get it.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 8:28

So then they own it because I have seen I've worked with great organizations where the executive team comes together and they're brilliant and they make these great organizational change strategies because there's a group think and they all agree. There's a group think and they all agree. They all buy in and they all push this decision through and it has horrendous negative consequences for the organization that they never saw coming. The most brilliant decision for any organization is worthless if nobody buys in and, even worse, it's detrimental if people push against it, even if it's the right thing for the organization. So for me that goes back to the definition. Well, how do you get people to buy in and bring their hearts and take ownership and take accountability and take responsibility and it's not your show, but they feel like they have skin in the game. Then you're going to elevate your organization and create something that's sellable or transferable to the next generation.

Gary Pageau: 9:23

Right and that's one of the things I want to talk about, because that is a significant portion of my audience are the folks who, you know they've been in business for a while and they're kind of coming to the point where it's like what am I going to do with this thing? And it's like there may not be family, just bring it in.

Erin Manning: 9:38

They may have family.

Gary Pageau: 9:39

But maybe they're not the right people or, you know, maybe don't need any other right employees. How do they even start that process of evaluating, passing on the business? Where do you think they should start?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 9:51

Well, again, for me it 100% goes back in. Looking at ourselves, I think of one manufacturer I currently work with. They've owned this place for 30 years and their hand is so tightly gripped on the wheel that they haven't built any bench strength and are not letting go to let the next level, the successors, come in and learn. So of course you have to have some basic systems and processes. It can't be knowledge in the head of the few wise elders. You got to codify it, write it down, train people up to it, back off and become a mentor, become a coach in your organization and allow others to make those mistakes and to make decisions and then to think it through in a way that helps them to learn how to step into that role.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 10:40

But I see too many leaders who are afraid of that and they end up this organization that could have a high value instead just becomes worth the amount of the equipment they have and they pull it out and sell the equipment and the business never continues on Huge cost differential there. But one is about getting tasks done and doing the actual work and the other is about managing the human beings. It's a totally different skill set. Right, I'll tell you what if you can learn how to manage the human beings? You can take the raw equipment and you can multiply it exponentially, the value.

Gary Pageau: 11:16

So why is it that people struggle with that so much? Because I mean, you know, I've been reading this in business books for ages. I mean this is not. I mean I'm sure what you do is wonderful and I highly encourage everyone to. You know, check out maizeleadershipcom and you know and all that. But why is this such a challenge for people to do this? Is it because we've sort of been brought up in this world of your work? Life is your work life and your life life is your life and you kind of keep those separate?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 11:46

Yeah, and that's a great observation and I, you know, for me, I love it. That's maybe the old model right, the industrial revolution. You have people talk about the work life balance, a bunch of who, we. You have one life right. How do you make decisions? And that's what I love about the next generation. People say, oh, they're lazy, they don't want to work. No, maybe they've got a value that's actually aligned appropriately. It's got a value that's actually aligned appropriately.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 12:51

My dad worked for General Motors for 34 years. People don't do that anymore. The organization doesn't have your best interest anymore. You have to look out for yourself. The old day was my dad's day. You work 35 years at the car companies. You retire and die and that's it. And you're a good worker, you're a cog in the machine. Well, that's not the way it works anymore.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 13:10

And now the thing I find too is that when you have business owners or people who really hold it dear to them, it becomes an extension of them. It's almost like their own ego. They become defensive against it. They don't hear as well others' ideas because, hey, they've done it this way 30 years. I know what. I know. You're not going to come in here with your new ideas and tell me how to change things, and so they can shut things down.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 13:34

They create defensiveness in their organization and almost like an impenetrability. People don't feel like they're heard, they're listened to, their perception matters, and so then what happens? You get that disengagement. People just go along, do what they're told and you're not really teeing the organization up to have the most successful second life and it becomes back. I think it's a mental game. That's why I say lead yourself first to understand what are the patterns of attachment that we have in our mind and how do you see your business as an extension of yourself? And how much are you doubling down to do the same thing you've always done and it's not getting you the result you want and you think the problem is the organization. If the organization is not getting the result you want and you're the leader the problem is you.

Gary Pageau: 14:22

But on the other hand, the flip side of that is, if the organization is phenomenally successful, it's not because of you either.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 14:30

Well, I like to say that, but I'll tell you what. I have worked with so many organizations and I have never, ever seen an organization that was dysfunctional at the ground level, that didn't have a high level of dysfunction on the executive team. They didn't communicate well together, they weren't aligned, they weren't on the same team. Conversely, if I see an organization that's dialed in printing money and doing things well, I can always trace it back to the top. In fact, I worked recently with a foundry. Now, this is the great thing I worked with. I had a bunch of company presidents in the room I was working with and one guy was. I had known all of them except one guy. He ran this foundry.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 15:09

Now, often foundry folks are salt of the earth. Right, it's the second oldest industry or second oldest profession out there foundry workers. Don't ask me what the first is. So they're out there and this guy's a gruff looking guy. But everybody told me the same thing His foundry's printing money. And I said, well, what is it he's doing? I expected to see somebody who's command and control. I get him in the room. When we start talking about best practices. He starts mentioning people like Jim Rohn and Nightingale and all of these classic motivational the first wave of motivational speakers in the 50s and 60s and people who really talk about how you manage your conscious intention to influence others, influence friends and win. What's the saying?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 15:56

Influence friends and manage people, or whatever you know, but anyway it came back to how he managed, how he showed up, and he wasn't just singularly focused on the bottom line. You got to know your metrics. But if you only focus on your metrics like I see, too many businesses do they focus on the next quarter and the next quarter and they do anything to make the next quarter's metrics look good at the expense of the human beings who are actually doing the work. They end up knocking the legs out from underneath themselves.

Gary Pageau: 16:24

Because that is one of the things you know I see with various businesses is, you know, you see sort of this drive to you know, reach optimal efficiency right by removing people and removing certain functions within a thing. And then they realize you've lost not just the human being, but maybe you've lost all the years of experience they had and why they did it right yeah.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 16:48

You lose all the experience, you lose why they did it and it goes back to again. I think the industry that you're representing is a beautiful model of what happens when we become so attached to doing things a particular way. What happened to polaroid? Where'd they go?

Gary Pageau: 17:03

well, it was kind of funny. They're still around. Actually, they got back. I mean they went down yes and then they, and then bankruptcy and all the other stuff, and then they've come back and they've got a new owner and they're actually building quite a niche. But it's interesting because it took that pain to do that, to kind of refocus them on where their value is. You know, and Kodak did the same thing, right? Kodak, yes, and whereas, you know, right now they're doing very well actually.

Gary Pageau: 17:33

But by realizing they're not. You know the world changed. They needed to adapt.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 17:39

Some adapted, some didn't. That's the thing, and it's no different whether it's organization. Organization is amalgamation of the individuals. It's a manifestation of the leader's brain. If the leader is adapting, you're going to stay at the forefront. It's a manifestation of the leader's brain. If the leader is adapting, you're going to stay at the forefront. And right now technology is evolving quickly. You have to be able to find that balance between keeping a structure and consistency but also being adaptive, and if you just focus all your eggs in one basket or the other, you're going to underserve yourself.

Gary Pageau: 18:08

Well, part of it is too trying to figure out what it is you're really good at. Like your friend who did the foundry right. He understood functionally that their business is to transform things from one thing to another. Right, it's a manufacturing process, right? They didn't try to become a marketing company. Didn't try to do these other things.

Gary Pageau: 18:27

They really understood, you know, and they honed themselves on that process. There's a a where a lot of business, I think, screw up from a leadership standpoint is. You get people who kind of get the process down and then they decided, well, we're really going to be about the brand, right, or something like that, or they go on an acquisition spree outside of their industry, because it's like, you know, we've got all this cash and the investors think we need to do something.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 18:54

It becomes a shiny object quest, a quest for the next shiny object, right Exactly.

Gary Pageau: 18:58

Exactly, and it's, it's, it's, it's a challenge. I think. For some of us, success can breed stupidity. I think in a lot of ways.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 19:05

Isn't it right. We lose sight of what got us, and it's a hard thing because there's certain plateaus as a business grows. Right, there's different challenges at different revenue points, different things you need to focus on at a given point. Whether it's automating systems or building an executive leadership team or whatever it is marketing sales there's always a different challenge depending on where you are in the growth cycle. But so many times I find that when businesses become flush, when they're successful, then they start to. They undercut themselves. They start. I worked with one aerospace company that wanted to grow. They acquired 30 smaller businesses, 30. So they were great. They were one of the biggest. Well, each business had its own culture, had its own ERP system, its own technology platform. Now they're going to decide to make them all have the same technology and it became a whole different ball of wax. They just totally lost the ball. They lost their eye, they took their eye off the ball and it didn't help them.

Gary Pageau: 20:04

Well, look what just happened with Boeing, right? I mean, that's a good example where you know they were known for having the most reliable aircraft there were. Right, then they buy.

Erin Manning: 20:12

McDonald's.

Gary Pageau: 20:13

Douglas. And all of a sudden the bean counters get involved and you start shaving things here and there. And then you got, you know, doors blowing off on jets.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 20:20

Who was it? Neil Armstrong, floating around the earth, saying he had this realization that he was in a capsule in space that was won by the lowest bidder. Not necessarily what you want, and this is the hard thing. It'll destroy your niche and it's a race to the bottom and it's a race to bankruptcy. So I like what you're saying. You're in a very niche market and I think the more you articulate what your niche is and have a specific, very concrete avatar who's the ideal client and market to that person and fix that person's problem, you can go a lot further than trying to the shotgun approach where everything to everybody.

Gary Pageau: 20:55

Yeah, and that level of focus is very difficult you know, as a leader because and part of that is because you know, once you do have a technology platform.

Gary Pageau: 21:05

I mean, I see this all the time, for example, with people in our industry who maybe buy a certain kind of printer and they can make a certain width of product on that printer and then they start playing with other substrates and start playing with other things and they said, well, what else can we do with this thing? And then they kind of lose a little bit of focus, in the sense that they kind of forgot why they bought the thing in the first place.

Gary Pageau: 21:29

Because they got tied up in this thing where we need to maximize or just find cool things to do with it. Because they're not maybe thinking about the market so much as they're thinking about their production capability.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 21:41

Well, this is the thing too that I find so often with creative minded individuals. They start a business that requires that creativity, love, that process, and then the business starts to take off and they still have that creative mindset. Well, that's very different than running a business, and in fact I've worked with business owners who they've scaled their business, did a beautiful job, and I mean beautiful to the extent that most people who have kids have their products in their house. Right, I would say vastly 80%. If you have a small child, you have the elf on their products in their house. Right, I would say vastly 80%. If you have a small child, you have the elf on the shelf in your house.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 22:14

But then what happens? I have this creative group of people who want to design things and don't want to spend their time focusing on the business, and it becomes this A it's a tug of war, it's a real push and pull and being able to get folks into that seat who can be the implementers and who can drive the structure in the organization. So if you're the creative minded one, you can stay in that space and have somebody who can keep you grounded. Otherwise, if you're a creative minded person and you're trying to grow a business. It's too often happens that we do. We lose focus, we go to the next thing and the next thing, and it's a process of continual innovation and invention, and the market has no idea what we're about.

Gary Pageau: 22:59

And the other challenge you have with that as leaders is you may have someone who excels in their position, right? Maybe they're like so they're a great designer, right, and so naturally you think, well, everybody wants to be promoted, so I'm going to make that person a department head of all the other designers and then pretty soon, everyone's miserable.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 23:18

Isn't that amazing how that works. We make this assumption that, because you're good at doing your job and doing the task, that you're going to be good at managing people, and it's such a totally different skill set and one that's too often overlooked. I see executives to be good at managing people, and it's such a totally different skill set and one that's too often overlooked. Right, I see executives who are good at looking at the spreadsheet and the bottom line and the strategic plan, and they forget about that pesky little thing, the human.

Erin Manning: 23:44

Every company is nothing more than a human organization.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 23:46

A human institution, it's for humans, by humans, to a human organization. A human institution, it's for humans, by humans, to a human end period. The commodity you might happen to produce could be anything. It could be automobiles, it could be photovoltaic cells, it could be whatever you do in your specific niche, right? I mean whether it's creating photos or art or what have you? Sure, but that's what I love. The infrastructure of every business is the same, and unless you understand that, it's so easy to get caught up and twisted up and miss what you need to have in place to create, in my mind, a sellable organization. I mean, that's the gold standard, right? Not that you have to sell it, but you can retire from it and ultimately, if you're going to be a business owner, that means you have a business that works without you and then you can do any role you want in the business.

Gary Pageau: 24:38

And that's part of the thing you need to think about is you know, when you start the business or take over the business or whatever, where do you want it to be? Right at the end, right, the old Stephen Covey, begin with the end in mind sort of idea, because I've run into many people in the photo industry who have small retail stores or whatever and they've been running for 34 years and it's just not sellable, it's not in a sellable state Because, like you said earlier, you know people have got it all in their head or they don't have the processes down or they're just, you know, doing it the way they've always been doing it.

Gary Pageau: 25:12

So what are like three things that, if you wanted to make your business sellable, you should look at? And we're assuming that the person has their act together. You know we're not doing an emergency heart replacement on this thing. It's going well. But what are the three things you think that they ought to look at?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 25:31

Yeah, this is the fun stuff. When I have business owners who are hungry, there's some great stuff they can do that can have a huge impact out of the gate. I think it starts with the first thing we said manage yourself. How are you to look at and honestly ask yourself, how are you spending your time as a leader? How should you be spending your time? Too many leaders find themselves doing the $10 an hour jobs. Sweep up the floor, it's the mom and pop shop and they do everything. Well, that's great, but it's time to think.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 26:01

I think of it in terms of a mountain, right, what is your position on the mountain? What's your station? If you're I mean if you're the the leader, you need to be at the top of the mountain, which means you have the law, the furthest view, the most strategic thought, right, and you're not down in the weeds getting stuff done, the day-to-day stuff. Now, of course, small shop owners. You need to manage both, but the first step is that mindset, to think like a owner. Then, when you do that, to start to, I like to draw out an org chart, even if it's only you to think of. What are the different roles you're doing? Right? You have operations, you have sales, you have finance, okay, and then to start to actually create an and without names, but by position Right, to draw that org chart by position Right and then and then all the way down, maybe the level below that, and then the neat thing is you can go in and add the names. Oh, I'm doing three quarters of this stuff and Bill over here is doing some of this. But then from that you can ask yourself okay, now you have an org chart for the current state. Measure that against an org chart you designed for the future.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 27:05

Are you growing your business or simply trying to keep it where it's at and create it in a sustainable way that you can get out of it and it'll maintain itself? So it's not a job you own, but a business you own. They're two different things. If you're trying to grow it, I mean, then there should be a difference between the current org chart and the future, right. But I think when you start to see it visually oh, here's where we're going in the org chart then you can start to hire well, create systems and processes for those key roles, maybe two layers down, that you can hire people into. So there's a method that they know best practice.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 27:39

Here's what the store looks like at the end of the day. There's pictures, there's a book they can go through. Here's how you greet customers. Here's how you greet the phone when the phone rings. Here's how all of this stuff right. Here's your brand guide the basic systems and processes. Start to get those in place at a low level and then you can start to feed people, hire people at a low level to do that and eventually train them up into the higher level positions and to become the director of sales, the director of marketing, the director of finance, the director of operations or whatever. It is right. Maybe it's one person doing all of that, that's fine. But having some clarity around what those different roles are, it's hard because as an owner, we wear all the hats and don't even think about it.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 28:20

We don't separate it, exactly being able to separate it. Think like, if you're a GM, what are all the different departments? Okay, well, you have different departments, even if you're the one doing it all. To understand those departments, start to write down what are the best practices. Get the knowledge out of your head, the tribal knowledge. Get it written down. Even if nowadays, with AI technology, you can speak into your phone and then have it transcribed.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 28:43

In no time, without a lot of work, you can start to have a sheet that says here's how we close this door, here's how we do X, y and Z right, and then you can really train people to consistently keep that standard. That'll allow you to be more and more at the top of the mountain, strategically focusing on where you're going, because most business owners my experience is they're so busy running around getting stuff done in operations they don't have a strategic focus, they don't have a strategic plan, they don't know where they're going in three years or five years. They're just happy they're in the field they love day to day. But suddenly here you are, 60 years old, thinking it's time to get out. What do I do?

Gary Pageau: 29:24

Well, and what's the response of somebody who says but I don't have time for that, Dr. Kevin?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 29:31

I don't have time for that.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 29:33

That's brilliant, right? You don't have time? Great, okay, then what you're going to do is take all your equipment when it's time to retire and part it all out and sell all the individual equipment and that's your retirement. No, it's about priority. It's about recognizing that you have convinced yourself over the course of your existence in your job that what you must do to be important, to be successful, is do the daily tasks. And that goes back to you managing yourself. You must change how you're thinking. You don't have time. You don't have time not to do it. If you keep doing what you're doing, your business will implode eventually.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 30:13

Right, if you are, you're committed to having this business be an institution beyond you. To go beyond you, you have to enter into a business owner mindset, which means you must start to get people fed in, even at a low level, right, I mean, I know businesses. They get interns and your job, intern, is to start to document the processes. I knew people who ran a copy shop, and it was a low level guy just started documenting all the processes. Right, I knew people who ran a copy shop, and it was a low level guy just started documenting all the processes and guess what end of nine months. He had a book with every process in it. They could bring anybody in and they could do it. Now, that's the hard thing for a business owner. He wanted to be special. It's our business, nobody else could do it like us. Yeah, exactly, well, you're gonna. You, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

Gary Pageau: 30:58

The reality is a lot of people can do it. You got to let go Because you want that. You want it to be replicable. Yes, right, you want that.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 31:08

And that's what you do as a business owner now. But you do it and you know it's a high level of quality and that high standard, your reputation, you, you feel good about that, but nobody will do it as good as me, right? That's what mom always said If you want it done right, you do it yourself. Well, guess what you got? To dial down mom's voice in your head and train others. That's leadership. Elevate others to be fully engaged, to be interested, to be excited to see the vision, not just to see the task in front of them. You know, not to be just a bricklayer who's laying one brick at a time, but to be the bricklayer who has this perception that they're building a cathedral to God and they're worshiping every time they lay a brick. That's different. You're going to have people bringing their heart to the game.

Gary Pageau: 31:49

Now I like what you said earlier about the mountain thing, because you know the reality is is you can't see anything from the peak of the mountain if the base of the mountain isn't solid.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 32:01

Right, I mean, that's a good analogy and but this is the thing I find so many times. I work with a couple business owners who have 200 million dollar businesses and they know we talk about that mountain analogy. What is the job description of where you should be above the tree line? What does that look like? And once they have that target dialed in of what that role should look like, then it becomes very clear. Every time they drop down into operations they can see it very clearly Like, oh, look what I'm doing now and guess what? They start to upset the apple cart every time they do because there's somebody whose role is to be in that operations position. A card every time they do because there's somebody whose role is to be in that operations position and now they're dropping down because of the mistake they see somebody else made or that internal voice want it done right, do it yourself. So they jump down, skip a level, do it themselves, and it just creates this cluster of communication in the organization. So it is about that trusting.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 32:53

You talked about being able to trust, being able to allow people to make a mistake and to not do it your way and to learn and to grow, to have that open mindset and to be again not only a business owner but a mentor and a coach, and to elevate people up, because, ultimately, the business isn't something that you should be working for. The business should be working for you. If you're a business owner in the true sense of the word, you should be listening to this right now down in the Virgin islands, and the business is creating for you right now and you can come back when you want to and you know what the business is all dialed in and people are there. You have good management team, good leaders. They're handling it. You're the owner. It's not an appendage that's connected to you, because once you learn how to run one business, my God, you can have multiple. You can have franchises. That's how franchising works, but it's about changing the mindset.

Gary Pageau: 33:50

So, speaking of changing minds and hearts, where can people go for more information about the maze leadership and you and your company?

Dr. Kevin Mays: 34:00

Oh, yes, I love answering any questions. So of course, I have a website, mazeleadershipcom, that's M-A-Y-S leadershipcom. Send me an email, kevin, at mazeleadershipcom, and we have a lot of materials that are available for business owners. One of the programs I have is a five step to grow your business. So I have an evaluation business owners can do to start to get dialed in. I'm all about offering resources to be helpful. In fact, it's that's my mantra at a deep level. I believe. Hey, if I'm just helpful, life's going to work out Right. So I've got a bunch of free stuff available. Come check it out. Go to the website, check it out. If there's anything that you need, I have resources, materials I'll send your way. And hey, if anybody's interested in having someone to help them scale, grow that business that works without them. That is that's the reason I'm on earth, other than being a good husband and father.

Gary Pageau: 34:53

Awesome. Well, it was great to see you, dr Mays, and to talk with you and connect with another Michigander in this great state of Michigan.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 35:02

I know, I know I'm going to finish with go blue. Oh, I know you're in Lansing.

Gary Pageau: 35:07

Hey, listen it's fine. Go blue, go green, go white, go Michigan. Right, there you go. All right, great to talk to you, take care it to you.

Dr. Kevin Mays: 35:15

Take care, it's such a pleasure. Be well, thank you.

Erin Manning: 35:19

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