Pricing Confidence For Creative Businesses, with Miriam Schulman

Pricing isn’t the problem—meaning is. We sit down with author and podcaster Miriam Schulman to unpack the mindset and mechanics behind selling creative work without racing to the bottom. From her journey off Wall Street into a thriving art career, Schulman shares a practical framework for moving past fear, charging premium prices with confidence, and helping buyers answer the real question on their minds: Am I worth this investment?

Schulman explains the belief triad—belief in yourself, in your product, and in your buyer—and why that third piece is the missing ingredient in most pitches. Instead of listing specs, we show how to sell the destination, not the plane: the captured safari shot you would have missed, the portrait your grandkids will treasure, the brand identity that finally fits. Schulman explains how price signals trust, why “reassuringly expensive” can convert better than discounts, and how to align your personal story with what collectors and clients value.

Sustainability matters as much as the initial win. You’ll learn the four-hour rule for creative genius, what to stop doing immediately (hello, vanity metrics), and what to double down on to build a lasting business. She also tackles AI with a clear-eyed take: it’s a powerful car that needs a skilled driver. Use tools that save time—smart prompts, clipping, research assistants—while protecting

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Transcript

Host Welcome And Guest Intro

Erin Manning 0:01

Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau 0:17

Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Miriam Schulman, who is an author and a podcaster, and she's going to talk about what it's like to be an artpreneur. Hi, Miriam. How are you today?

Miriam Schulman 0:32

Thank you for having me, Gary. I'm so excited to be here.

Gary Pageau 0:36

So, Miriam, let's talk a little bit about the business of art, which is kind of your field of expertise. What got you into the art field on the business side?

Miriam Schulman 0:47

Okay, well, dialing back a little bit, I always wanted to be an artist, but like many creative people, I was told I wouldn't be able to make a living that way. So I went to Wall Street first. That was my job out of college and grad school. And after 9-11 happened, I knew I could not go back to that world. And that's when I dedicated myself to becoming an artist full-time. And at first I still didn't believe I could make a living at it. So at first I was painting on the side and teaching Pilates. But while working at the gym, I was taught how to sell personal training packages. And that sales training was my aha moment. I was like, oh, what they're teaching me here, I can use to sell my art. And now, 25 years later, that is how I help artists, is because I'm letting I'm teaching them how to use these same business principles that everybody uses, but to use it for their art. And as we were saying before we hit record, it's like that's why what we're talking about, it doesn't matter if you're a photographer, if you are an app developer, if you are a camera store, equipment seller, a printer, whatever it is. We all have to follow the same business rules that apply to everything in order to thrive.

Gary Pageau 2:05

But you know, there's always those people who think they're the exception.

Miriam Schulman 2:08

Oh, yes. Everyone thinks they're a unicorn and this won't work for me because.

Gary Pageau 2:12

Right. And so how do you interpret that, right? When you're talking to people, let's say you're working with an artist and they're doing uh calligraphy or something like that.

Miriam Schulman 2:20

And this won't work for me because?

Gary Pageau 2:22

Yes, exactly.

Miriam Schulman 2:23

Yes, okay. So everyone thinks they're the exception, and it's not just artists who think that way. That is simply because our brains have evolved for survival, not goal achievement.

Gary Pageau 2:35

Okay.

The Brain, Fear, And “I’m The Exception”

Miriam Schulman 2:35

So whenever uh we feel anything that makes us feel uncomfortable because it's gonna be different or scary or risky, which a lot of business is by nature. We're we're taking risks to do things. Whenever our we feel uncomfortable, our brains are gonna come up with all kinds of reasons why that's a terrible idea.

Gary Pageau 2:53

Right.

Miriam Schulman 2:54

Terrible idea. Because our brain just wants to keep us safe in the cave, right? Safe in there. So the smarter you are and the more creative you are, the better you're gonna be at coming up with those stories about why it's a terrible idea and you should never do it.

Gary Pageau 3:10

So you can be your almost your the more creative you are, is more like how you're gonna be your own worst enemy.

Miriam Schulman 3:16

That's correct. And notice, and notice, Gary, I did not say excuses.

Gary Pageau 3:20

Right.

Miriam Schulman 3:20

Because it does not feel like an excuse to you, it does not feel like an excuse to the person who is believing their own stories. It feels real. It's like, no, no, no, Gary, let me tell you, you don't understand. And right in my town, this is the way it works.

Gary Pageau 3:35

Right.

Miriam Schulman 3:36

Right.

Gary Pageau 3:37

So, step one, you're talking to an artist who's come up with you that. I mean, how do you break it to them without crushing their creative spirit? Which is kind of what the product is, right? Or their reason for being in business is they want to share their creative vision. And yet, on the other hand, you're saying, well, you need to follow these kind of steps, these the Yeah.

Miriam Schulman 3:57

Um, the hardest thing for many business owners to get over is that cheaper is not easier to sell.

Gary Pageau 4:06

Right.

Miriam Schulman 4:07

So, and we we we were talking about this before. It's like not only can you not compete on price, but it's not easier to sell something cheaper either, because customers are really looking for something that's reassuringly expensive. Is that a concept you've talked about be on this podcast?

Gary Pageau 4:23

Uh, not recently, no. I want I want to hear more.

Miriam Schulman 4:26

Okay, so Gary, if I were gonna I do you like a lot of men like watches. Do you like watches?

Gary Pageau 4:32

I just have an Apple watch.

Pricing Power And Reassuringly Expensive

Miriam Schulman 4:34

I'm pretty boring when it comes to accessories and well, you know, if you're talking about something like a Rolex, if I were to try to sell you a Rolex, or if I were to go in an eBay and try to sell a Rolex for $47, right, I wouldn't be able to do it.

Gary Pageau 4:48

Right.

Miriam Schulman 4:48

Right? Yeah, and if I was gonna even if I was gonna ask $400 for that same Rolex, I probably wouldn't be able to sell it for $400 either. It's actually easier to sell it for $4,000 or $5,000 than it is for $400 or $47. And that's because people are looking for something that's reassuringly expensive. Now, someone listening who's not a Rolex buyer, I'm not a Rolex buyer either. I actually have nothing on my wrists right now. Uh, you have to think about where in your life are you also not price sensitive? Right. So do you hire the cheapest vet?

Gary Pageau 5:23

Right.

Miriam Schulman 5:24

No. The cheapest babysitter? No.

Gary Pageau 5:27

Right.

Miriam Schulman 5:27

The cheapest doctor? No. You need heart surgery. You're not gonna go look for someone who can do it for less money.

Gary Pageau 5:33

Bob's discount heart surgery. That's right.

Miriam Schulman 5:36

Okay. So there's definitely buy-in. And I have clients who say, Well, Miriam, but I live in Missouri. I was like, Yeah, okay. It still works for you. And so, like my client who was in St. Louis, he was asking $3,500. He raised his prices to $5,000, and people kept buying. In fact, he it was easier for him to sell at the higher price.

Gary Pageau 5:57

But you also have to kind of know who your customer is in the sense that you realize you're not trying to reach everyone, right? And they're not everyone is a Rolex buyer.

Miriam Schulman 6:08

Correct. However, when you're in business, it's the hardest thing to do is to go after the Walmart customer.

Gary Pageau 6:14

Exactly.

Miriam Schulman 6:15

Because every business who tries to do that is going to be replaced by somebody else.

Gary Pageau 6:19

Right.

Miriam Schulman 6:19

And you can communicate that you're not that person by your your pricing.

Gary Pageau 6:25

Yeah, because there's you know the transactional sort of sales and the other and not acting transactional.

Miriam Schulman 6:32

Not only is it the price that you choose, but when you bring that into the conversation, right. So you walk into Walmart, the registers are right there, right in front of you, because they're letting you know this is the most important thing to you is how much this costs, right?

Gary Pageau 6:46

Right, exactly.

Miriam Schulman 6:47

Right. But if I were selling a high-end uh photography package, that should be the last thing that I'm discussing with my customer. The last thing.

Gary Pageau 6:56

Right. Yeah, you should have convinced them of the value of the service before they even did that.

Lead With Meaning, Not Features

Miriam Schulman 7:01

It and it's more than that, Gary. So, and again, this is this goes for anyone selling anything high-end, whether it's a new piece of camera equipment or a photography package, or if you're a printer and you're selling a print package to an artist, it's not just the value of you, Gary, it's not just the value of your service. But this is where, and I talk about this in my book, Artpreneur, it's the belief triad. So the belief triad is belief in yourself, belief in your product. Yes, we've heard all that, but you also have to believe in your buyer. So, what does that mean? That means if I'm considering spending five thousand dollars on something, I'm just trying to decide if I'm worth it.

Gary Pageau 7:46

Okay.

Miriam Schulman 7:47

And if you're only focusing on you, yourself, Gary, about whether you're worth it, whether your service is worth it, but you're not focusing on if the customer is worth this service, and that's what's going through their mind. Am I worth investing in this thing that I desperately want?

Gary Pageau 8:07

Right.

Miriam Schulman 8:07

Do I am I worth it? You might lose them.

Gary Pageau 8:10

So, for example, going with your camera example, if someone's selling a, you know, a $2,000 compact, high-end compact digital camera, yeah. You have to tell them you're gonna take pictures worthy of that camera.

Miriam Schulman 8:26

Exactly. It's not just can the camera do XYZ?

Gary Pageau 8:30

Right.

Miriam Schulman 8:31

It's is my talent worth investing in this thing in? And that's part of what you have to focus the conversation on. So you might ask them, where are you gonna be taking these pictures? Oh, you're going to, I don't, I don't know, making stuff up on the Galapagos. Right. Wow, you're, you know, you're gonna you're gonna be amazed by the sea turtle picture. I had a client who, you know, went on a safari and he was so happy that he had the camera that was able to do XYZ because he was able to capture this one shot that he would have missed. So take them to that place where they are you're feature pacing them into already owning what you're selling, and they're imagining that experience of them having it.

Gary Pageau 9:19

So when you're positioning yourself with these kind of buyers, right, what are some of the things you need to focus on your message for?

Miriam Schulman 9:30

Yes. So that's such a great question. Because as we said, if if you're not focused on the price and you're not focused on the features, what are you really focused on? People are buying meaning. They're buying on what this thing means to them. And that is what you need to focus on. Now, what I see so many business owners do wrong, especially artists, is okay, forget about the price, but but they're focusing on the features, the benefits. Right. And and people say, Wait, wait, Miriam, aren't you supposed to fe focus on that? Yes and no, because really, like I said, it's the destination that people want, it's the meaning that people want. So it's kind of like if you were trying to sell me a trip to Hawaii and you were telling me, well, the plane has 200 seats.

Aligning Vision With Buyer Values

Gary Pageau 10:19

Right.

Miriam Schulman 10:20

No, I don't care about that. But that's exactly what people do when they say, well, it can do, you know, it has these F-stops and it has this thing and it has this much memory. That's describing the plane.

Gary Pageau 10:31

Right.

Miriam Schulman 10:32

You can't describe the plane. You have to describe the destination. And it's not like, oh, this hotel has a bar that's open until this time. That's a feature. Like, uh, how much fun are you gonna have? What you know, what's the temperature gonna be like?

Gary Pageau 10:46

Because what kind of relationships do you develop while you're there?

Miriam Schulman 10:49

Right. Like, what is the experience gonna be like for me? That future pace them, enjoying what the destination doesn't matter what the plane is.

Gary Pageau 11:00

So, one of the great things about photography specifically is because it does have that emotional, it can have that emotional. I mean, there's certainly parts of it that are, you know, I'm just taking pictures of a receipt and you know, that sort of thing. That's not really photography. But if you're trying to grow people's experience with photography, um, what are some of the things that you can do to connect with those types of buyers?

Miriam Schulman 11:25

Okay, so now it's gonna depend on really understanding who your buyer is. What is it that they want to use it for? Are they a portrait photographer? Are they taking pictures of their family? Are they a travel buff? Is that what's most important to them? So understanding their values and connecting to them on the values piece of it. So that's why I said before people buy meaning and understand what is meaningful to them in that conversation.

Gary Pageau 11:57

Now, the art business is kind of a different business than the snapshot memory business. But when you're working with artists who are trying to convey a vision, right? Or some sort of technique or something they've learned that they want to use in a visual sense of some way, you know, whether ceramics or it's painting or what have you. Where does their personal vision relate to the sales side? Because you can have people who create personal visions that are unsellable, if you will.

Sustainable Creative Business And Boredom

Miriam Schulman 12:27

Let's assume that that's not the case, that they do have a vision. I'm gonna give you some examples about how we were talking about people's values and how you can communicate meaning in a completely different way based on your values. So recently I worked with an artist, he does pencil drawing of people, but this is applicable if somebody was a photographer taking pictures of people. So it's pretty much the same thing. And before he became an artist, he spent the last 25 years in the construction business doing like mill work. So when we were unpacking, like what was those connection points, how he comes in and how that artistry of the craft and the detail of it, well, that was the same thing he was doing with his drawing.

Gary Pageau 13:19

Okay.

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Miriam Schulman 13:20

And so making these connection points that only you can with your values can communicate, whether you're talking about a brand, it could be a brand voice, but a lot of us are individual, we are personal brands. What is it that only you can bring to the table and talk about that's unique to you to show why you're the right person for completing the vision? Because it's not just the vision of the artist, because we need to communicate with a buyer, it's matching our vision to something that a collector actually wants.

Gary Pageau 14:20

And there's kind of two phases for this, as far as I understand it. Like there's the I prepare a gallery of my work and I would like people to buy it. Then there's the commissioned piece, right? Where you people ask you to do things in your style. Is it the same sort of uh approach in terms of you know marketing and pricing?

Miriam Schulman 14:39

Let's say, for example, you know, it actually isn't the same. It actually is the same, um, whether it's a commission or producing the vision, because the person who's gonna commission you, they just want something more specific that your vision is already communicating. Okay. If you're not communicating your vision, they're not gonna commission you because they don't know what they're gonna get.

Gary Pageau 15:00

Right. Okay, that makes sense.

Miriam Schulman 15:02

And it's and too many artists, whether it's a photographer or regular, they think it's just the thing. The no, it's not the thing, it's how you communicate the thing. You know, like Nike, it's a just do it. So they're communicating something that is a very specific idea that people are buying into that identity that they want. And it doesn't matter if you're a photographer, an equipment salesperson, an app developer, what is that idea that people are buying into that idea that they want to be a part of that idea?

Gary Pageau 15:37

Part of the subtitle of your book is sustainable and in terms of keeping that business going over time, right?

Miriam Schulman 15:43

Yes, yes.

Gary Pageau 15:45

That's where I think a lot of people struggle, right? Because creative people very often have short attention spans for some things, right? They, you know, they they want to move from one thing to another because they've kind of said their piece, they want to move on. What is your insight into that?

Focus Time, What To Stop Doing

Miriam Schulman 15:59

Oh, such a great question. So, first of all, why we chose the word sustainable. I have actually gotten clients over the six-figure mark. But I know that what most artists want, what's most creative want, is a sustainable business simply because they don't believe that six, you know, six and seven figures are possible to them. So that whole title is like we remember if we're talking about the branding, the whole subtitle, we're selling an idea that this is your dream and this is what's possible. And to say become a millionaire artist, no one's gonna buy that book.

Gary Pageau 16:32

Right.

Miriam Schulman 16:34

Well, they might, but not as many.

Gary Pageau 16:35

So you want to be able to sustain the sales of the book, by the way.

Miriam Schulman 16:40

That's correct. That is correct. But to talk about your actual question was was being sustainable and people's shortest attention spans. I had a business coach brilliantly once say this to me, which is making money is actually very boring. So once you learn how to make money, you have to keep doing that same thing, and that can be boring to people after a while.

Gary Pageau 17:03

Right.

Miriam Schulman 17:04

So I'll tell to my artist, like, hey, if there's gold, keep digging.

Gary Pageau 17:09

So, how do you coach clients who maybe the business side of it starts to take away their joy of their work? You know, because I once had someone tell me that you know, nothing kills their love of photography faster than having a photography business. Right.

AI As Tool, Not Replacement

Miriam Schulman 17:29

Yeah, yeah. So there's two things that um all creative people and business people really need to know, and that is we really only have four hours of genius time in the day. And they have done multiple studies, everyone from Darwin to Beethoven, you know, whether it's musicians, artists, Hemingway, writers, past, present, that you they only have four hours. That's it. That's it. So I'll tell my artists that like if you're doing more than that, you're not really producing anything of value after those four hours. That's all you need to do. For some artists, that's actually a relief because they think they need to be in their studio 40 hours a week. Then it's terms of the business side, it's focusing only on what matters and eliminating what doesn't. Because most business people, it's not that they aren't working hard enough, but they're focused on the wrong things.

Gary Pageau 18:29

Right. So, what would be an example of a wrong thing? Would it be like just spending all your time trying to get Instagram likes?

Miriam Schulman 18:34

Yes, that's exactly 100%. That's that would be exactly what I would say. When I first started writing my book, the average engagement rate on Instagram was 1%. And I did get one of the editors from HarperCollins wasn't happy that I didn't talk enough about Instagram and TikTok.

Gary Pageau 18:52

Right.

Miriam Schulman 18:53

And they assumed, well, this was like the note that I saw, which I guess was for a different editor, but of course I read it. It was like, oh, I guess she's she's a woman in her 50s, she's kind of old-fashioned. And instead of being offended by that, I was like, okay, that means I didn't make my case strong enough. Why social media is not what it was 10 years ago.

Gary Pageau 19:15

Sure.

Miriam Schulman 19:15

So I went back and I edited that chapter. And during that one year that I was writing the book, the average Instagram engagement rate dropped from 1% to 0.6%. And Gary, it's now 0.35%.

Speaker 3 19:31

Right.

Miriam Schulman 19:31

So out of a thousand people, that's three people.

Gary Pageau 19:36

Right.

Miriam Schulman 19:37

That's three people.

Gary Pageau 19:38

And of those three people, how many are actually going to buy something?

Miriam Schulman 19:40

Yeah, that's three people.

Gary Pageau 19:42

Right.

Miriam Schulman 19:43

So that is one of the things that you should not be focusing your diet on.

Gary Pageau 19:47

So when you look at like the universe of the art business, it seems like it's it's it's changed a lot over the last few years with different tools, different things made available. Um, you're hearing a lot of things about AI right now, killing the art business. But I think it's actually gonna make real art more valuable. What do you think about that?

Miriam Schulman 20:07

I think you're right. The listeners couldn't see my eye roll when you when you when you actually uh set me up for that. I mean, I think that if your art can be replaced by AI, you're probably not making good art.

Gary Pageau 20:19

Right.

Miriam Schulman 20:19

And that's that's true whether you're a digital photographer or a photographer. Like uh I know I was reading uh a little while ago that branding campaigns that use AI, it actually takes longer to use AI than it does not to use AI. And there was like a little cartoon I saw how everyone thinks uh using AI is like jumping on a train, and really what it looks like in reality is somebody pushing the train. Right.

Gary Pageau 20:47

Well, you know, it's one of those things where you know it's a tool you can use.

Miriam Schulman 20:51

It is a tool, but it's kind of like a Lamborghini. A Lamborghini is a car that goes really fast, but you need to have a good driver behind it.

Gary Pageau 20:58

Right, right. And you can't drive it everywhere, right? You're not gonna do the Walmart that we were discussing earlier.

Practical AI Uses And The Idea Economy

Miriam Schulman 21:03

Yeah, yeah, you need a good driver. So yeah, it's great. I use it all the time, but you need to know how to drive that Lamborghini so you don't crash.

Gary Pageau 21:10

Yeah, because back in the day, I was having this conversation with a photographer last week for the podcast. We're talking about how, you know, there used to people used to hand retouch photos, you know, with oils, and then Photoshop came in. And it put those people out of business, but you still need to have the eye and the technique to do that. And I think you know, AI, well, besides the fact that you can't really own the intellectual property from an AI, I mean that I mean that's a whole nother issue, right? Yeah, but there but the reality is is if you're creating something that you want to monetize, you need to, you know, do it yourself.

Miriam Schulman 21:42

I mean, well, that's a whole different thing. Like what so what right? Yeah, I mean, yes, yes, yes, that's correct.

Gary Pageau 21:50

So, what would be an example of an AI tool that you would suggest an artist could use effectively?

Miriam Schulman 21:57

So, I mean, we we use like many uh in my business, and I'm one of the things that some of my artists are surprised about is like how helpful it can be for them.

Gary Pageau 22:07

Absolutely.

Miriam Schulman 22:08

So everything from ChatGPT, but again, use smartly because if you're just saying if you just say write me an about page, it's gonna spit something out that sound like Dr. Spock wrote it. You really have to understand what to put into it to get something good out. Some things that we use and my I can encourage my artists to use are like those AI video clipping tools.

Gary Pageau 22:31

Yep.

Miriam Schulman 22:31

So we love that. Anything that saves you time and money, right? Use it.

Gary Pageau 22:37

Yeah.

Miriam Schulman 22:37

Like it's kind of like saying you're not good at math because you use a calculator. No, somebody who who can do calculus still uses a calculator.

Gary Pageau 22:46

Right, exactly. And that's where I think some of the fear is is that because I mean people are gener, you know, normies, if you will, are generating, and I'm doing air quotes here, art using Chat GPT or something.

Miriam Schulman 22:58

It looks like it.

Gary Pageau 22:59

Yeah, it's it's not very good. And you know, you can be replaced by a prompt, you probably aren't very good to begin with.

Miriam Schulman 23:08

Right. That's what that's what I was saying before. Like if it can be replaced, and a lot of it, it's more like people, what's gonna be more important as we move into this AI world is an idea economy rather than a skill economy. Who has the best ideas?

Gary Pageau 23:24

And speaking of great ideas, where can people go for more information about the things you do?

Miriam Schulman 23:30

Okay, so if you like the kinds of things I talked about today, you'll hear more about that on the Inspiration Place podcast, wherever you're listening to Dead Pixel Society, or you can check out my book, Art Preneur, available wherever books are sold.

Gary Pageau 23:45

Awesome, Miriam. It's great, it's been a great conversation. I really enjoyed uh learning from you. This is kind of fun talking about kind of the the potential of the art business and how it actually has more of a blue sky ahead of it than anything else.

Miriam Schulman 23:59

Yeah, I'm optimistic.

Erin Manning 24:02

Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.theadpixelssociety.com.