PIC Preview: LEAN Principles Turn A Magic Act Into A Global Breakthrough

In the preview of his Photo Imaging CONNECT keynote, Stuart MacDonald — magician, filmmaker, entrepreneur — explores how LEAN principles, continuous improvement, and ruthless clarity transformed a faceplant into standing ovations, a win on Penn & Teller: Fool Us, and a top-10 finish at the world championships.

MacDonald takes us through the nerve-wracking world of competitive magic, where originality is mandatory, time limits are tight, and the smallest defect can collapse the illusion. He breaks down how continuous feedback revealed hidden waste on stage, why a candelabra beat a single candle for instant story logic, and how standardized, travel-ready props removed friction from his global tour. We dig into 5S for creatives—everything in its place, every time—and the unglamorous decisions that protect attention when the lights hit.

MacDonald’s 100-runs-in-30-days practice loop shows how tiny upgrades compound into confidence and clean execution, even when things go sideways. If you’ve ever felt torn between art and process, this conversation proves structure is rocket fuel for creativity.

Register today for the Photo Imaging CONNECT conference at www.photoimagingconnect.com

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Chapters

• 0:51 Why Stuart McDonald Returns
• 1:26 Show Open And Sponsors
• 1:43 Stuart’s Unusual Career Path
• 4:45 Reentering Competitive Magic
• 6:00 Inside The Olympics Of Magic
• 9:22 Applying Lean To Creativity
• 11:52 Building A Clear Stage Story
• 15:26 Cutting Waste With TIM WOODS
• 20:11 Prop Design And 5S In Practice
• 25:16 Fooling Penn And Teller
• 28:40 Qualifiers, Setbacks, And Wins
• 32:01 World Top Ten And Tour
• 34:48 Lessons For Photographers
• 36:32 Where To Find Stuart

Transcript

Gary Pageau: 0:26

Hey, this week's episode of The Dead Pixels Society Podcast. We're doing something different this week. We're revisiting a past speaker named Stuart MacDonald, who is also the keynote speaker in the upcoming Photo Imaging Connect Conference, March First and Second at The Rio in Las Vegas. Here's your previous keynote presentation. And I think you'll find it very interesting. For more information on Photo Imaging Connect and to register today, go to www.photoimagingconnect.com.

Erin Manning: 1:01

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Media Clip, Advertek Printing, and IP Labs.

Gary Pageau: 1:18

Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're joined by Stuart McDonald, who is an old friend of mine going back, I don't even want to say how many years, but we'll say 40. And Stuart's going to be sharing to us a lot of information about lean principles. But first, Stu, let's first talk about your career because it's it's it's a multivaried and different one than most people.

Stuart MacDonald: 1:46

Yeah. Uh well, thank you. And first of all, thank you for inviting me to this prestigious podcast. It's very nice to be here. 40 years? That it makes us look sound older than what we really are. Exactly. We're young at heart.

Gary Pageau: 2:01

Yeah.

Stuart MacDonald: 2:01

So my career is, yeah, it it's it's interesting. It started where, you know, in the college years, I had worked my way up as a magician and then put myself through college with it. And then I went on tour. We toured for like a dec uh 15 years and decided, uh, we want to get off the road. So we started this little haunted house, and it turned out to be one of the largest in the country, it was like 20,000 square feet. And this is before haunted houses were a big thing, right? Right, right. And we did that for 17 years, and then you know, the economy started bottoming out in 2008, and so I got out of that, went back to college, the Adrian College, where we both met, and went into the corporate world and started working at the television stations, and then ended up at large manufacturing headquarters on the west side of the state. They make appliances. I won't say who, but they're pretty pretty pretty pretty big deal.

Gary Pageau: 3:12

And you're also, I mean, you have you ran your own business, you did video, you had a video company, you did Oh, yeah, yeah. Forget about that. You used to do documentaries. You were doing a lot of different things.

Stuart MacDonald: 3:22

Yeah, I had a I also had a uh company called uh Boomerang Studios, and we did like 400 TV commercials, a lot of reach regional and local, but then the real breakout that we had was a documentary called I Wanna Look Like That Guy, and it got the attention of Arnold Schwarzenegger and his whole group of people, and it just went it skyrocketed. So I'm well known in the bodybuilding community still for something that I made in 2009. Yeah, and yeah, so you can look that up. It's it's it's some is you know, people put it on the internet for free now, so it's it's it's thousands of links to it.

Gary Pageau: 4:03

But I think I've got a copy of it here somewhere. I'm sure I bought the DVD at some point. And also, you kind of didn't do the magician thing for years, and then a few years ago you got back into it and you received some national and international acclaim.

Stuart MacDonald: 4:20

Yeah, and this is where the story gets interesting and and le latches on to the topic we're going to talk about. While I was working with this manufacturer, I was like, ah man, I really was depressed. I didn't feel whole. And I was like, Well, when did I feel really good about myself? And it was like, was when I was just getting started out in magic as a competitive magician. Because that's how you kind of go up through the ranks and get noticed by producers. But the only way to do that at an older age is to be in the world championships, and you have to qualify for that. And my first attempt, I basically face planted in front of everybody in the industry. And I I mean, laughing stock. I mean, this guy was terrible.

Gary Pageau: 5:00

Can you explain a little bit about competitive magic? I mean, because that's an that that's a very narrow niche that most people probably aren't even exposed to or or are even aware of.

Stuart MacDonald: 5:11

No, they're not, but it will be. There's a London, a very famous London documentary company that has contacted me and a bunch of other magicians who compete in the world championships. They're doing a documentary about it. Okay. So it will be mainstream in the near future. However, no a lot of people don't know what this competition competition is, and they held it every three years in a different country. And the Olympics of magic, essentially. Yeah, it's called Physm, the Federation of International Magician Society, and it's been around for like 85 years. And when when you say these it's competitive, I mean in Europe, it's how you make or break your career. It's very serious. And especially in Asia, it has gotten so big that government states will sponsor these magicians and they will come back as like Olympic heroes. And it is, it's really, it's really fascinating. I mean, this isn't like you know, the magic that you see a magician pulling out the quarter behind the ear. I mean, this is sophisticated stuff. Just to give you an idea how sophisticated there was a guy from Italy who uh did his act and with water, his that was his theme. He was controlling water, and at the end, he became a hologram of water and just the water stopped and he disappeared. Wow. And and and he didn't even come close to placing.

Gary Pageau: 6:45

Wow. Wow. And so so you so you decide you need a challenge in your life, and you get back into it, and you phase plan. You do not succeed. So what's your thought process then? Because you're thinking, maybe I don't have it anymore, right?

Stuart MacDonald: 7:00

Yeah, yeah. I'm I'm old school, right? So what ended up happening is I I remembered my training at this manufacturing company that they trained us in lean principles and continuous improvement. And I'm like, And what does lean mean for those who don't know? Well, lean isn't necessarily an anacronym, it's because I see it at as an acronym around, but you can it has a lot of meanings with different people, but basically what it is, it's a composite of principles that are designed to eliminate waste and create efficiency. Okay. And that's that's what lean is. And the continuous improvement part is that you have a closed loop system where you are constantly leaning out, putting new efficiencies in.

Gary Pageau: 7:50

So that's what we're so you decided that you were gonna from the training you had at this large company that you were gonna apply these principles to your magic act.

Stuart MacDonald: 8:01

Yeah, of all things, right? And I'm like, I I I didn't know how to really do it, but I the more I thought about it, lean principles have a lot of similarity to theatrical principles. And when I'm talking about the lean principles, I'm not talking about black belt, right? I'm talking about just the the very basics. So I would take like direct observation would be director and an and on pull would be the audience reaction, either they're booting falling asleep, not paying attention, that means there's something wrong. So I would I would take these principles and I would and I would match them with theater principles. Okay, and it made it really easy. And I started uh looking at my act a little differently.

Gary Pageau: 8:47

And I now now for those of you who have not seen your act, and I do recommend folks go on the tubes and you know, Google Stuart McDonald. You can find a lot of his material there. But just just briefly talk about the scenario that you were working on that you apply these principles to, the kind of the magician storyline. You had a story to it.

Stuart MacDonald: 9:08

Yeah, it at first there was no story, it was just a mirror, and I and this mirror duplicated things.

Gary Pageau: 9:14

And the accidental musician, magician, I think unintentional magician. Okay, yeah.

Stuart MacDonald: 9:20

So I ended up after I face planted this magician whose name is Gene Anderson, who is a retired and a very famous magician, and he he did magic throughout his entire career at Dow Chemical, but he's a PhD in chemical research. And he took me aside, he said, Stuart, I want a story because nobody else is telling a story. Give us a story. So I started thinking a lot about it, and I contacted a guy who came from Adrian High School. Adrian High School and went through the Croswell Opera House Theater that was in our hometown. And the dude ended up being one of the go-to uh production designers for Broadway. And he was nominated for a Tony for creating newsies, all the whole production design of newsies was his. So I looked at my audience in the same way. I need as few steps as possible to get my story to them without them trying to figure it all out in their head. And it's like, why is he doing that? Why am I? I don't want the audience to be thinking more questions. I want them to be lost in it.

Gary Pageau: 14:10

Right. So so you don't want to create a premise where they're starting to think about, well, that's a cool haunted house. Wonder where that is, and because they're not paying attention to your story.

Stuart MacDonald: 14:22

Yeah, you don't want them to think of who is this guy? Why is he here? You don't it it doesn't matter why I'm there.

Gary Pageau: 14:28

Right.

Stuart MacDonald: 14:29

It should, you know, that that question is answered differently in everybody's head. Right. And then you, you know, every once in a while you get a magician, it's like, it doesn't make any sense. You know, why do you come on stage with a candelabra? It doesn't make any sense to me. Who are you? Why are you there? And I'm like, well, I have nine minutes and I'm not speaking. I can speak anywhere, right? But obviously, I'm in a room that I can't see until I illuminate it. And every haunted, haunted house movie from the 50s and 40s always has that scenario, right? Yeah, so so as we started digging into the storyline, we started to have to go into waste management. Okay. Because I had a lot of, you know, when you're pouring a putting putting a story together, you have lots of plots, right? And you have to figure out which plot is gonna stick the best.

Gary Pageau: 15:22

Right. Because you had you had a hard stop on this. Yeah. I mean, you don't have a lot of time for this presentation for this competition. You had what, nine minutes to do your whole act, right? Yeah.

Stuart MacDonald: 15:35

And well, ten minutes was a cutoff, but you don't want to get there. Right. Because then you're gonna see a red light, nobody wants to see a red light, and five minutes is your mi minimum. And all these other competitors are hitting the five, six minute mark. But my story is a little bit more complex, and and so I had to add more. And more explanation. And by doing that, it added more complexity, and so we had to use the TIM Woods, which is the waste acronym. So time is the T part of it. The amount of time is that people are waiting for a trick to happen, right?

Gary Pageau: 16:21

How many? I don't want to call them illusions or tricks. I'm not sure what the actual nomenclature is, but how many were there at the in the final presentation? How many illusions did you have?

Stuart MacDonald: 16:34

Well, in the competition, I could I I I can't I can't even tell you how many.

Gary Pageau: 16:40

But but it's a lot, it's more than two or three.

Stuart MacDonald: 16:44

Oh my god, yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's a lot of small things to lead up to the mirror, yeah. And and now that it's not a competition act anymore, I've added even more elements and more skill that I wish I would have had time for uh before. So yeah, I mean you're probably looking at you know a hundred different, you know, visual effects and things.

Gary Pageau: 17:09

And it's so so so getting back to what you're saying, you had a a time element you had to work with, and you had to figure out what to keep and what to throw away, all continuously, all during this time.

Stuart MacDonald: 17:20

Yeah. Yes. And and that was that that part was difficult because you have to, you know, you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but right, you know, you have to what do they call it, kill your darlings. Right. Yeah, exactly.

Gary Pageau: 17:38

Exactly. You know, just because you like it doesn't necessarily mean it's going to advance the the act or the or the or the show.

Stuart MacDonald: 17:48

Right. So, you know, when you when you think of the Tim Woods thing, like tea is transport, you know, it's like I'm transporting these my tricks from one part of the table to another. What am I bring bringing on stage? You know, I'm transporting a candelabra on stage, and we had different forms of candelabras. At first, it was a a chamberpot candle, and we found out that after watching it over and over and over again, it's like it should be a candelabra because you want to illuminate a room. And candelabras are used for people that in scenarios where you don't know where you're going. Right. Chamber pot candle is is just like you one candle, you know where you're going, you're gonna go to do your business and then go back to bed. Right. You don't wanna a candle is a lot is a lot different.

Gary Pageau: 18:41

So you're even thinking of things that maybe on an instinctive level would make sense, and you didn't have to explain it, it just made sense.

Stuart MacDonald: 18:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause it's interesting. What ended up happening is that when I went from a single candle to a candlebra, it created a lot of problems because it was easy to duplicate a single candle, but it wasn't it, but it wasn't spectacular. Right. But when you duplicate a candlebra, it was like it turned into a miracle. There's like, what the where the heck did that come from? Right.

Gary Pageau: 19:20

And and it and it increased the complexity of the illusion.

Stuart MacDonald: 19:25

It it did and it didn't. It's it's amazing how you how you can think your way out of a problem. Okay, you when you are presented with with something that you're like, how am I gonna make this fit? And you just reverse engineer it. Right. And then the other the other uh part of the waste is the second one is the I, which is inventory. So inventory is for me, inventory is as a you could look at it as prop management, how many props am I bringing to the story? But it became more complex than that. Inventory became just how do I transport this table and this mirror and all the parts and pieces because it was becoming a pain to assemble and disassemble was a thousand parts because it had to be less than 50 pounds. And oh my gosh, it was it was nuts. So I came up with a system where the table doesn't have any screws, nuts, or bolts. It's all cottage together. And the mirror is all quarter-inch bolts. So if I lose a bolt or whatever, it's easy to find a quarter inch.

Gary Pageau: 20:38

You can do you can do that visually, right? So you even extended these principles into the into the construction of everything.

Stuart MacDonald: 20:45

100%, yeah.

Gary Pageau: 20:47

So it wasn't just the act, it was actually the construction of all the props and all of the various accoutrements you needed to even transport it. Because, like you said, you had to take this thing to South Korea, right? Uh yes, yeah. I mean, that was the goal was to get it to South Korea, right?

Stuart MacDonald: 21:04

And and the other part, too, is that you know, when you're in the competition this world competition, is that you can't do any magic that's off the shelf, you have to invent okay.

Gary Pageau: 21:16

And so you can't go to the two the magic castle place in Las Vegas and buy something off the shelf and get really good at it and try and compete.

Stuart MacDonald: 21:24

No, can't do it. You'll be locked, you'll be laughed off the stage. They will close the curtains on you. Okay, that happened. Yeah, that created its own challenge because it gets you into 5s. And 5s is when you're prop building, you amass massive amounts of just junk everywhere from servos to batteries to wire to coat hangers to you name it. There's tons of little things.

Gary Pageau: 21:55

Well, don't stand at the illusion for me. I'm still thinking this is all magical.

Stuart MacDonald: 22:00

Oh, it is, but it but it's but it it can become a nightmare because it's like you get an idea, right? And you need to find that tool to make that problem. And if you and if that tool is hidden underneath like some project that you did a while ago and you didn't put that tool back where it was, right, you're s you're s wasting precious time to find that one tool. Sometimes I'm like, I know I bought this prop. I know I know where I I'm just gonna have to buy a new one. And then you know, and then you find it. Yeah, then you find it, and then you got two of them. But it's like it's it's it would be uh you you get to the point of time management where it's like it's it'll cost me less money to buy a new one of these things, right, than to try to find it. Right. So 5s became very important to me.

Gary Pageau: 22:56

So explain it for the layman listening to this, what is 5s?

Stuart MacDonald: 23:00

What are the so 5s is is everything in its place and a place for everything. That's the simplest way to to put it. So yeah, if you imagine, and we've all seen this, a a very anal retentive person in their garage and they have an outline on the wall of every tool. So if if the tool isn't put back, there's an outline. So instantly they know a tool is not where it's supposed to be. It's missing.

Gary Pageau: 23:30

I'm that guy. I am that guy.

Stuart MacDonald: 23:32

Yeah, yeah. And and 5s can really be very effective when it's like you cannot close the door on your shop until that tool fills that spot. Right. Because you'll forget. Right. And so that's what 5S is. It's basic and you can do that with your desk. Right. I've seen guys at at work that they say, oh no, I said where's your where's your family photos? Where's your Christmas cards? He goes, Oh no. I ever I just have a laptop. I can sit sit down anywhere, and that's my office. Right. The the guys that really know how to do it can really make their their life a lot simpler if you 5S. Another way of 5S, right, is your when you open up your junk drawer at home, you know. It's what if your junk drawer looked like your silverware? Right. It's like, yeah, well, that would make sense.

Gary Pageau: 24:33

Unless you're unless your silverware drawer looks like your junk drawer, then then there's a problem there.

Stuart MacDonald: 24:38

Right. But it's called a junk drawer because it's not organized, it's just a repository.

Gary Pageau: 24:42

Because it's the stuff you can't you don't put in the other drawers, right? Right. So it's not so so you started this process in 2015. So when was the competition?

Stuart MacDonald: 24:53

So the qualifying competition was in 2018.

Gary Pageau: 24:58

So you had approximately three years to work this process.

Stuart MacDonald: 25:02

Did you do this the whole time, or was this I was I was doing minor competitions leading up to it and not getting anywhere? Then in March of 2018, I was on I I was accepted to be on Fool Us, the TV show.

Gary Pageau: 25:19

Which is which features who? Penn and Teller. There's a national TV show on I forgot it was ABC or somebody like that.

Stuart MacDonald: 25:26

It's on the CW and it's on YouTube. And so I was invited to be on the show, and and if you stump Penn and Teller, then you get to work with them in Las Vegas.

Gary Pageau: 25:39

And what does that mean, stumping them? They can't figure out what it is you did.

Stuart MacDonald: 25:43

Right. That's the whole idea. That's the whole idea of of being on their program. And if you don't stump them, that's like they compliment you, they say you did a really great job, and it's the best way I've ever seen that trick done, but we we know that trick well. And so I went in there and I was like, I know that I'm gonna I'm gonna fool these guys because I invented this trick with this mirror, and it's I'll just use the word it it's ballsy. What I do is very ballsy, and it's something that no magician has ever done before. And and I'm like, okay, so let's let's give it a shot. So I do it, and they had no idea, right? No idea.

Gary Pageau: 26:28

Yeah, I I've seen the segment because I guess that it's online, you can see it, and you could just the looks on their face was I wouldn't say it was stunned, but it was definitely you can see their gears are working, trying to figure it out.

Stuart MacDonald: 26:41

Yeah, and backstage I showed them how, and they were like, What? I you broke the code, you're not supposed to do that. Yeah, well, you know, they're your idols, right? You wanna give them a little love. So, yeah, so you haven't even shown me, man. Well, you gotta be a magician. So, anyway, so I win, and and there's these rumblings that are happening in the magic community. It's like Stuart Modell just fooled Penn and Teller, it's a pretty big deal. And now the competition is that summer. And and it had to be a big confidence boost for you, right? It's a big confidence boost, and and I thought, you know, I'm gonna win this thing.

Gary Pageau: 27:24

And did you you didn't sit on your laurels though? You still continue to refine the process, correct? Oh, yeah. I refined it, refined it, refined it even more.

Stuart MacDonald: 27:33

And so when the competition came around, it's in two phases. Phase one is you qualify for the Olympics of magic, and then phase two is the finals, who gets to be the winner. Now, this was the time where the Society of American Magicians, which is the SAM, and the International Brotherhood of Magicians came together and they called it the Combined Convention, and it was held in Louisville. And I was not a hopeful. The they had Asian performers that were there, and it was going to be a very, very tight competition.

Gary Pageau: 28:13

Now, now give us an idea of the scale of the composition. How many competitors and how many people like win?

Stuart MacDonald: 28:20

Well, in the in the qualifiers, I can't remember how many competitors there were. It was a fair number. You can the only only people from like the Asian people were able to compete in the International Brotherhood of Magicians, but to qualify for the Olympics of Magic, you have to be from North America. Okay. Because they're they're in different sections. I did my act, and I got a standing ovation, and I'm like, okay. But I made a ma there was a major problem though that nobody knew about but me, but I was really upset. Um my mirror wasn't set properly, and it was ahead of my table rather than behind the table, and some people couldn't see, and I'm like, so I actually had to pick it up and set it back in front of the audience, and I'm like, damn it. But the act was so strong that it didn't matter. So then the evening show happens, and I knew something was up because they said we want you to close the evening competition. They said you can put your tickets in the box for the per for the People's Choice Award. And there's 2,000 people in the audience, and everybody was telling me, Stu, your box, you can't get any more tickets in. Your boxes jammed. They didn't even have to count them. Right. And so when the award ceremony started, now just think about this. I had face planted just in the last competition.

Gary Pageau: 29:58

Right.

Stuart MacDonald: 29:58

And and so the expectation was he might be here. Yeah. I won everything. It blew the doors off of magic for me. I mean, I became an I was a nothing, and all of a sudden everybody wanted a taste of me. And so I then I had one more year to refine the act. You go to Korea, and the competition was solid, it was a lot of fun, and my only goal was just to qualify. It wasn't to win. Winning was not part of it because it's very subjective and and the competition is so crazy. Right. But I got in the top 10. And and when you think of face planting, and then you get in the top 10, and and nobody from the Western Hemisphere was close to me. Right. I I was like, okay. And I got a world tour out of it. So where did the world tour take you? Oh, where didn't it? I was I was getting I was getting so many offers I had to turn them down. I mean, I had offers to go to oh, it's a it's an island nation outside of Australia. But anyway, there to be on a TV show there. I was supposed to be on a TV show in Italy, but I ended up but I ended up going to the UK, Italy, Sweden, Spain, China, and the entire Caribbean. And then Oh, I'm so sorry about that.

Gary Pageau: 31:32

Yeah, and then it's been really a hardship.

Stuart MacDonald: 31:34

Right, it was it's terrible. And then COVID. Right.

Gary Pageau: 31:39

Yeah. There you go. And and there you go. So the reason why I went ahead of you on not only was to reconnect because we don't we don't see each other often enough, but to really kind of bring this back home towards the idea of using these relatively uh mechanical or rigid principles to a creative process, right? I think that's something that a lot of people in in the photo industry could benefit from, you know, if they're doing like a photo shoot or if they're doing even if they're printing pictures, right? Or you know, doing all kinds of things. What are the top three things you think somebody should keep in mind as they apply these principles to a creative endeavor?

Stuart MacDonald: 32:24

Yeah, creative endeavor. Well, first of all, is get to know the principles first, right? The and and just high level. I would say from a creative standpoint is waste elimination. Use the use the acronym Tim Woods. Just look it up. It's every you know, it's the definition is there for you. Tim Woods. I would apply that. The other thing I would apply is continuous improvement. I would find something that whenever you do a shoot, you ask yourself, what could I do? What one thing could I do differently that would make it better? Right. Just one tiny incremental thing. And what you what I did is whenever I would find something that I improve upon, I'd have a penny, uh, an empty jar, and then I'd have a full penny jar. And I would say improvement on the empty jar. So whenever you take an idea and you go, oh, okay, I had an improvement, you put it in the improvement jar. So now you can actually see progressively how many times you've improved something. So you're you're moving the needle, but you're watching it happen because you can see, you can see it and you can feel it.

Gary Pageau: 33:43

And it's a visual cue, it's almost like you're rewarding yourself.

Stuart MacDonald: 33:47

Yeah, like before you uh walk out of the office, you go, Oh, yeah, that was an idea, and then you put it in there. So, yeah, it's small incremental changes, and then they become big changes to me. Right. And what I did with my act to give you an idea of how powerful that is, is that I had gave myself a 30-day window before I went on a pen and teller foolis, and I videotaped my act 100 times in 30 days with the idea that if I improved one thing, that would be a percentage point. So at the end of 30 days, my act would be 100% better than what it was. Right. And it worked.

Gary Pageau: 34:28

Now, the thing there I think is important is you had to kind of let go of the preconception of you had to be willing to change your story, right? To to enhance the improvements. You had to be you had to be so wed to the story that you know of the uh of the magician in the haunted house, and you had a preconceived notion it was gonna do this, this, and this, because the improvements would change the story, or enhance it, right?

Stuart MacDonald: 34:56

Right, yeah, and make it more and clarify it.

Gary Pageau: 35:00

So I know it's with a lot of times with the creative people in particular, right? They have their vision and they're gonna lockstep, hold on to that vision like it's you know, gripping around, you know, a snake trying in in their garden, right? They're just not gonna let that thing go. And sometimes that can be very limiting.

Stuart MacDonald: 35:18

It it it can be, it can be because you could be holding on to the wrong idea when you think it's the right idea. So the third thing uh I would I would say is for photographers, 5S. You have so much gear, and and if you don't have the gear in the right place and you and you don't have a ritual for charging your batteries, have a ritual for your bag to make sure that you have the batteries, you have SD cards, you know, there are so many things that if you leave one thing behind, you're screwed, right? Or you're delayed, right? So, you know, that is something that I would say a photographer could really take to heart is to have that in your bag of tricks.

Gary Pageau: 36:04

Awesome. So Stuart has been great catching up. Where can people go to find more information about you, your magic, and your lean pro presentation presentations?

Stuart MacDonald: 36:18

You go to my website, and if if anything, just Google Stuart McDonald Magician, and that's S-T-U-A-R-T. And A C M-A-C. Yes. Mac. But my website is Stuart MacDonaldMagic.com. Pretty easy. And I'm easy to find if you type my name and then add the word magician. If you don't type my name, you'll get Stuart McDonald, the golfer, and Stuart McDonald, the the mountain, the mountaineering guide.

Gary Pageau: 36:53

Nice. Did not know. Listen, to me, there's only one Stuart McDonald, so you're it. So yeah. Well, thank you much. Great to see you again, and thanks again for being on the podcast. Oh, you're welcome. Anytime.

Erin Manning: 37:07

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