From Surf Photography To Fine Art Prints, with James Katsipis

Gary Pageau interviews Montauk-based photographer James Katsipis about his shift from self-taught surf photography—shooting New York winters and campaigns—to selling fine art through galleries and his own Montauk space. Katsipis describes learning to present work effectively, favoring large anti-glare acrylic prints for big installations and collaborating with interior designers and installers. He explains early print sales models, then the operational problems of manual order handling, shipping damage, and customer-service fallout. Katsipis details adopting WhiteWall’s Shopify app integration: syncing high-res files, one-tap order acceptance, drop-shipping, improved packaging, fewer damages, and reduced weekly stress, plus easier global sales due to European production and faster shipping. He notes a wishlist item for multiple crop ratios and credits streamlined checkout (including Apple Pay) for reducing abandoned carts.

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Transcript

Opening And Sponsors

Erin Manning 0:00

The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Media clip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers. Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Meet Photographer James Katsipis

Gary Pageau 0:19

Hello again, welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by professional photographer James Katsipis, and he's coming to us from Montauk, New York. Hi, James. How are you today? Hey Gary, how's it going? Thanks for having me. So you are a professional photographer who is unusual in the sense that you are very, very focused and you're not a general purpose photographer. What are those areas and how did you get into the business? All right.

James Katsipis 0:51

So I started off as a surf photographer, professional surf photographer. And I did that for many years, like 15 years. I shot all pro surfing all around New York in the winter, primarily in the snow, and other very, various cold places around the world. So that was kind of like my niche. And then I did a lot of campaigns. We did some fashion. And then I ended up landing in fine art gallery work. So that's where I've been living now, is just in the gallery world selling fine art.

Gary Pageau 1:28

So

From Winter Surf Shoots To Galleries

Gary Pageau 1:29

what was that transition like? Because I can't imagine the New York surf market is huge. Is it?

James Katsipis 1:36

Yeah, you know what? It's really funny. We actually do have a really big community here in New York. People don't know how good the waves are here, but we have very good waves. And I'm from Montauk, New York, and we have some of the best waves on the east coast of America. Okay. So we do have a pretty good market. And it actually is kind of fun because most people do say surfing, New York, because they think of like skyscrapers, skyscrapers. And I'm like, no, no, Montauk's a little bit different. It's like a little small beach town. It's like sleepy. But the transition into galleries was kind of easy because you know, while I was out there shooting the surfing, I was always shooting the landscapes that surrounded it to try to like tell the whole story the day. Like, you know, it wouldn't just be the surfing, it would be, you know, what does the beach look like? Sunsets in the afternoons, you know, just to sort of tell the whole story of the whole day. And people were really drawn to like those, even like let's say, like those b-roll shots. And they're like, I really like that, really big for my wall. And I was like, Oh, we can do that. And then more and more people started wanting that more. And I'm like, Oh, this is like a real, this is a business here. And then I had Gallerist like approaching me, like, hey, we would like to do a show with you. Would you be interested in something like that? And I'm like, okay, yeah. So we did that, and then it just steamrolled from there. And so now I'm full-time fine art photographer selling art.

Gary Pageau 2:57

Do you have a training background or did you come to it because you were a surfer and you were the one with the camera?

James Katsipis 3:03

So all my friends were very good surfers and some professional. I was not. So I elected myself to be the photographer and I taught myself photography. And I took it in high school and I really liked it, and it just sort of stuck with it. And then, like, my first shot I had published with Eastern Surf magazine, I got a check for like I think it was like 40 bucks. Wow. I still have a photo of the check.

Gary Pageau 3:31

Yeah.

James Katsipis 3:32

And I was like, $40. I can make money doing this. I'm like, oh yeah. Like, this is what I want to do. If I can do this for a living, I'm set. And so then I just kept going down that road and knocking on all the doors saying, hey, you know, take a look at these photos. And people were very receptive to my work. And it just built up over time. And that's how we did it. But yeah, it all started on the beach. Right. With me and me and a little fanny pack, my Canon Rebel film camera, and like a bag full of 36 mil, you know, 36 shots, 35 bell rolls, and just blasting away all day, like not knowing what I'm doing. But I had a lot of good mentors over the years that sort of took me under their wing and said, Hey, maybe try doing this. And we have a lot of really great artists here in Montauk.

Gary Pageau 4:19

Yeah. So that's sort of like the kind of the East Coast art community, right? With all the galleries out there and that sort of thing. Like you do like Martha's Vineyard. I know Martha Vineyard, not New York, but it's sort of that sort of vibe. The Hamptons very white, linen, very nice. And people want beautiful art for their walls, and you're willing to sell it to them, correct?

Presenting Work With Acrylic Prints

Gary Pageau 4:40

Absolutely. I'm very willing. So when you came, when it came time to look at presenting your work to selling your work, how did you do that? I mean, were you like, hey, I'm gonna just you know throw up a gallery and hope people sign it, or did you did you pre-print work and take it around?

James Katsipis 4:56

For sure, I printed everything and had it all framed and threw it all up on the walls in this one gallery. It was the most chaotic ADHD looking show you've ever seen in your life. And I think we sold one thing, but I was very young, I'm 18 or something. And then a good friend of mine who I look up to very much, very well accomplished artist Dalton Portella, came to the show and I said, So what do you think? And he goes, very busy, very busy, and I never forgot that. And so then I started going to his shows and seeing how he was presenting his work, and it was all on these acrylics. And then Dalton showed me how it was done, and he actually introduced me to his printer at the time in Brooklyn, and I started working with him, and so then I started presenting all my work in acrylics at all the galleries and stuff.

Gary Pageau 5:49

You've delineated work, is it all acrylic, or have you tried different?

James Katsipis 5:53

No, we've tried for my large format prints that are going in really big homes, like 120 inches by 45 inches, like triptychs and stuff. Definitely acrylics because anything that big is gonna have a reflection. So we have to do the anti-glare acrylics, those are the best. I find the metals to be a little too glossy at that size, right? And they do have a shine to them, which is fine. That's a look, you know, like that's preference. Like you can like that. But when you're going to those giant sizes, it can be a little bit much. Lights, and no matter what type of lights you put on those metals, it can be a little you see the spots in there.

Gary Pageau 6:33

Do you work with designers at that level where you actually like talk about lighting placement?

James Katsipis 6:38

And oh, some of the houses that are built out here will build in the art to the homes. So we'll come in and they'll be like, All right, the electrician needs to put in a spotlight here at 40 degree angles and 30 degree angles for the piece that was that's going in there. And sometimes I'm surprised because we'll go do the install at a house that I don't know, and I'll be like, Oh my god, this piece looks perfect in here. And the owner will be like, Yeah, we built your piece into the into our bedroom, like when we were building the room. Well, I did not know that. Like, I'm honored and flattered, but yeah, so we work with a lot of interior designers and some contractors when we have a big piece being done.

Gary Pageau 7:20

Yeah, because I imagine, you know, with an acrylic print, which is is not light, it's not, you know, I mean, there's there's a lot of engineering that needs to go in place to hang one of those, right? Yes. I have a very, very great crew.

James Katsipis 7:35

And Chris Lacour, he is another owner of a gallery in town. He is just a math wizard when it comes to hanging. Like, if you put me in that room alone with the acrylic, like nothing's getting hung. You're just gonna have giant holes in the wall. Like, I'm gonna mess up relentlessly. He's in there, he can just like look and be like, okay, this is it. 60 on center, let's go. And he's in and out of there so fast.

Gary Pageau 7:59

So, are you considered do you consider yourself to be more technical or emotional or what emotional?

James Katsipis 8:06

I have friends that are techie guys, and just like I'm not there. Like, I see a photo and I know how to compose it in my mind, and I know what to do with my camera and stuff. But like, if you want to go into like the specs of each camera and how that all works, I'm just not your guy.

Gary Pageau 8:23

Well, are

Fuji Color And The 15 Minute Rule

Gary Pageau 8:24

you still shooting on that Canon Rebel with the kit lens with the film, or have you moved up?

James Katsipis 8:28

We have moved on, but it's so funny. Like, it's all come full circle because now I'm like shooting on like my old Pentax 6-7 again, which I love, and just wasting so much money on film right now, and like shooting a with a four or five horseman with a six by seventeen back, which is for medium format, which is like you know, three three frames in in one shot, and like you mess up, and there's like you know, $30 mess up right there. So, but but that's that's my side gig. Uh, I shoot primarily with my Fuji GFX, my 102S. I love that camera. That camera is it's amazing, one of the best cameras I've ever shot with. I was a big canon guy for a while, and then I switched to Sony because I liked how small, compact they are, their low light capabilities, which is they're amazing. But if I may critique, I don't like their color palette very much for portraits or even portraits or even landscapes, like the skies are always green, right? That you gotta like bring it back to normal. The Fuji color palette for me, it's just it's perfect, and you know, and I can go shoot a roll of Portrait 400 and it could match very easily between so like it gives it that nice film look, and that's kind of what I just I don't want to have to do a whole lot of post-process, you know. Yeah, I had a mentor that told me if you're messing with a photo for longer than 15 minutes, it's a failed photo.

Gary Pageau 10:04

Well, that is where the heritage comes from, like for Fuji's heritage of being a film maker, right? They know what it's supposed to look like, and then they can transfer that to the digital side, they've always kind of had that secret sauce in what they do, yeah.

James Katsipis 10:16

You know, I'm just so confused. Like they have the the crop sensor, yeah, and then the medium format sensor, but they won't do like a full sensor, right? Which is interesting because I want one.

Gary Pageau 10:27

Well, get out there. So let's talk a little bit about the output side of the business. Have

Online Sales Without Manual Errors

Gary Pageau 10:32

you always managed the sale of your own stuff with your own website? And what was that like? I mean, did you have stuff pre-printed, or do you were you printing on demand, or how did that start?

James Katsipis 10:44

All right, so in the very beginning, I pre-printed and said, Hey, I'm gonna do a run of 25 of this image, and we would sell out. I'm like, okay, great. And then I was like, okay, then I was printing on demand, and then I try to make like a Squarespace website or something like that, and it was good and it did really well, but I was also having to log every single order manually, which takes so much time. I mess up, I make mistakes, I put the wrong address in. You know, when you're doing like 30 orders in a row, like it's you just sort of try to get in the groove, but then your mind goes somewhere else, and then like type in the wrong zip code, you know, and then the client's like, Hey, where's my photo? I ordered this thing like two weeks ago, and I'm like, that's a very good question. Where is your photo? And then I look and it's like they're in like California and it's in Idaho, you know, and then I have to be like, I'm so sorry. Let me re get let me redo this for you. Or and then if the person or the company that you're using didn't pack it correctly and it comes damaged after they waited for those four weeks, then you're really in the gutter with them. So we had to find something a little bit more sustainable and easier for me.

Gary Pageau 12:02

You know,

WhiteWall Shopify Automation And Shipping

Gary Pageau 12:03

hence hence your partnership with White Wall and what they're doing, right? So talk a little bit about it. Because I mean, I've had some people on White Wall in the on the in the past on the podcast, and it's always you know, they're everyone they're very well known for obviously the high quality, yes, and the attention to detail, and you know, especially acrylic, right? That's sort of like one of their secret sauce kind of things. Someone knows it better than them. So, what was the was it the quality or attention to detail, or what was the thing that tipped it in scale for in favor of them? So I I own my own gallery in Montauk, right?

James Katsipis 12:37

And we were getting so many orders, and I was paying someone to place all these orders, and that was costing me a lot of money, and then there would still be mistakes, and then I was like, there has to be a way because I run my site through Shopify, right? Right, I built it around Shopify so I could have my POS system in the gallery and my online store all connected as one, right? So I could see what's moving, what's not, and then finally I started deep diving and I'm like, is there an app that printer uses for Shopify that I can just integrate the system? And there really wasn't, but I reached out to White Wall and they're like, listen, we're building one right now, but it's not gonna be ready for a few months, right? And I was like, okay, I'll I can wait that long. And then finally they kind of like soft launched it, and I immediately jumped on that and I worked with their team to get it going and set up, and my web designer as well. It actually was very easy. I'll get all these orders, right? And my phone dings. I look at it, I'm like, oh, I got an order. I open it up, I say, okay, so and so wants this image 30 by 40 acrylic, and it's going to California. This is how much it costs to for me to make this is what they paid. Except the order goes right to White Wall, they make it, they pack it perfectly, and then they just drop ship it right to them. So basically, all I had to do was this. That was it. Now it's like, oh, I can be like out riding my bike and go, oh, cool, I got an order, put it right back in my pocket. Like, I just made a sale. Great.

Gary Pageau 14:20

So it saved you a lot of time and also increased accuracy.

James Katsipis 14:24

And they're cheaper for shipping, and they're in Germany, which is crazy. They're faster and cheaper for shipping in Germany in Europe compared to the other printers in the United States. And and their packaging is so well. So and you gotta understand, like UPS and FedEx, like they are yeah, they're staffed by gorillas. But you know, like my I'd be getting with the other printers that are using, I'd be getting so many damaged prints a week, and they'd be sending me photos of like literally like boot prints on top of the packing and all this stuff. Now it's sort of eliminated that because I think because this the way I think so. I've been thinking about this. So the way Whitewell's doing it is direct. So when you're coming from, let's say, the West Coast over to New York, it has to change so many hands with the shipper, and there's just way more chances of it getting damaged, right? Meanwhile, with this way, it just I think it touches less hands in so less chance for it to be damaged. And I have one damaged print, and it was 100% because of you, less than because of White Wall.

Gary Pageau 15:38

So let's talk about that because you know, when you're absorbing that cost of that damaged print, right? I mean, that's gonna hit your bottom line directly. Absolutely, yeah.

James Katsipis 15:49

That and it makes me look bad, and it gives you bad reviews, you know, and people don't mind telling you what they feel, you know, on the internet, they'll give you that one star real quick, yeah. And so when it shows up, and they and they spend a lot of money for this art, right? And then yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Gary Pageau 16:06

You're talking about just a simple envelope, four by six prints, they're talking about it.

James Katsipis 16:12

You know, it's like a lot of money for the average Joe. And so when they're all excited, they make the commitment to buy your art, and they're like, Oh, they've been tracking it for days, and like, oh my god, today's the day, it's showing up, and then UPS shows up, and the things like cracked open, it's in pieces, and yeah, you know, they don't they go straight to me. Yeah, you're your customer, and then I used to have to go back to the printer and be like, hey, look what happened. And they're like, Okay, we'll do a reprint, no problem, we'll talk to you later. There's no they they weren't really doing any quality control, customer control, you know, yeah, customer satisfaction. They're just like, Oh, whatever, you deal with the clients, we'll make you a new print, right? But I'm the one getting all the heat.

Gary Pageau 16:56

It wasn't so how long have you been how long have you been using this news and the Shopify integration for a year? So you've had a year now to look at it, and what are some of the benefits you've seen to that?

James Katsipis 17:07

I mean, the headaches I used to get, like what we were just talking about with the damages and the dealing with the clients, all that stuff that would take up like 30% of my week, just writing those emails, apologizing. Oh, I'm so sorry your print is lost. I'm so sorry your print came damaged. Like, right, so that eliminates that stress. Right. So that's a big benefit for me because I would have like knots in my stomach because I don't want my clients being unhappy with me. I take it personally. So now I have my website, and every time I upload a new photo, I just literally I upload it to White Walls, like you'll have your own account on White Wall, and you upload the high-res file to them, right? And then it automatically lives with White Wall, it just lives there, and then you sync that to the photo you upload on your Shopify. Just pick everything you want to sell, like all the different formats and sizes. It's up to you. Like, you don't have to sell everything. Like, I don't do Canvas, I will never do Canvas, it's not happening. I just don't add Canvas. That's my preference. So you can make it however you want to make it, you know. And once that's done, that's where it lives. So you don't have to sit there and upload a one gigabyte file every time you have to place an order. They already have your portfolio there, you know, and I know it's safe and I know it's not going anywhere. So that also saves a lot of time.

Gary Pageau 18:26

And there's

Crop Control Global Buyers Faster Checkout

Gary Pageau 18:27

a synchronization between the whitewall storage and the Shopify. So once a update an image, it automatically takes care of that.

James Katsipis 18:35

So say I upload a photo and I'm like, I don't, because I'm OCD, I'm like, I don't really like that leaf there. I can like take it down or just upload a new one and just resync it, you know, updated file. So I think they did an amazing job with this app and their whole team. It was really it was a team effort. I I was on the Zoom call with their whole digital team that was building it, and we were like having real conversations. They really cared about the process and how I was using it, and they still do to this day. They still check in with me saying, How's everything going? Is this working? Is it what's not working for you? They're always looking for feedback.

Gary Pageau 19:16

Now, do you do you have any items on your wish list still for the integration that you'd like to see happen?

James Katsipis 19:22

Okay, so the only thing, and I don't even know if it's technically possible yet, it just might be too hard of an endeavor at this point. So, like all my photos right now are at three, two crop ratio. Uh, other people like you know, four fives or six, seven, you know, depending on how what camera you shoot and stuff like that. So now all mine are I you have to crop each image to three, two. So let's say, and and I am by no means complaining. I'm just saying this is just one thing I would tweak, you know. I'm very happy. So they'd have these acrylic blocks that they sell, which I love, and all my clients love to buy. They're in two different sizes, they're like six inches by four inches, and then the bigger one is eight by six or something. You can only sync the smaller acrylic blocks with my three-two crop, right? Sync to the larger blocks because I think the larger blocks are a four four. If we can somehow get it to use different crops in one store, that would be great. Because I obviously have uh you know, I have one-to-one crops, I have squares, I have some that are more three, two, and some are you know, wider like four or five. Like my my Fuji is you know, four, four or five crop native.

Gary Pageau 20:42

I believe is it important for you that the image be presented in the crop that you done, or would it be bet okay for you if somebody were to recrop an image, maybe in an untasteful way? Clients, that's what I was getting at, right? Because you're an actual artist, so yeah, no, I get people all the time in the gallery.

James Katsipis 21:05

Can we crop this this way? And I tell him, I said, Listen, I I I shot this in a certain way because this is how I want to present it to the world, you know. Right. So, no, so like I'm really happy there's not like the black and white option that something like no, I want something black and white, it will be in black and white. It was meant that way, you know.

Gary Pageau 21:26

Kind of at a different level than what's a you know, the typical consumer-ish site where it's not a you know, it's not wedding pictures, right?

James Katsipis 21:32

Exactly. Like, no, yeah, I took a lot of time and effort to make this photo exactly 15 minutes, no more than 15 minutes. Professor Ms. Dow, that's who told me that. Yep, told me anything out of 15 minutes has failed.

Gary Pageau 21:45

I was like, okay. So, what is this done on the top line side in terms of sales or anything like that? Is has you seen any appreciable growth there since integration with this?

James Katsipis 21:55

Now that I'm with Whitewall and they're in Europe, I get a lot more orders all over the world now. And because people were like, oh, you know, you're located in America. What's that gonna take to get this piece to us in like France or or anywhere else? And I'm like, no, no, no. My printer's your neighbor. It's gonna be because they're like, oh, shipping's gonna be, you know, insane to ship this from America, a giant acrylic. I'm like, no, no, it's gonna get to you faster and cheaper now. So people, you know, all over the world will buy my work because they know it's not gonna cost them a thousand dollars to ship this.

Gary Pageau 22:27

Okay, so you're seeing more global interest what you're doing. Is there anything happening on the SEO side for that? I'm just curious where you think that's coming from.

James Katsipis 22:36

I do belt it out that I'm working with White Wall and that they are in Germany and they are the best and they are streamlined. And I have followers from all over the world, so they are hearing me say it. You're so shy and reserved, though. I'm always working on my SEO to try to get it up there to go higher. So maybe, you know, maybe it's organic. Cool, yeah. So there's another thing I I wanted to say, but even with what like the Shopify now, the one thing I worked on for so long was the abandoned cart issue. Right, exactly. Getting, you know, people they love this, they they get it, they pick it, they take the time to make it, and then they put it in the cart, and they're like, I'm just not ready to do that. And a lot of the problem was the checkout process, you know, it gives you a lot more time to doubt your purchase. Now the Shopify and Apple Pay and White Wall, they just go chick chick twice on their phone and then it's done, and then they made that sale. So that it's definitely turned over a lot of empty carts.

Gary Pageau 23:40

That's good because that is one of the big concerns, especially for a lot of the higher ticket, right? People get into it and they get us to a certain point.

James Katsipis 23:47

Yeah. Hey, I'm in the same boat. I do that sometimes myself, but sometimes I'm just like, ah, I forgot, and I just double it's that easy, right? That easy. That's what there you go. There you go. Yeah.

Gary Pageau 23:56

So

Where To See And Buy

Gary Pageau 23:57

where would people go for more information to see your work and place many, many orders?

James Katsipis 24:03

You can just go to my website, uh just.com, or you can follow me on Instagram. That's let's talkgrams, T-A-U-K, like Montauk. My gallery, right on Main Street in Montauk. If you come out for the summer and you're hanging out the beach, we're at a 724 Montauk Highway. Nice.

Gary Pageau 24:20

Well, thank you so much, James. It's great to meet you. Gary, I'm glad to hear that there's someone out there making money selling prints. That's awesome. All right, Gary. Thank you.

Erin Manning 24:32

Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.theadpixels society.com.