Build a brand story people actually remember, with Katherine Touminen

You can put a famous face next to a brand and still end up with marketing that goes nowhere. What actually moves people is trust, specificity, and a story that feels human, especially in the photo imaging industry where the product is memory, emotion, and identity.

Gary Pageau sits down with Katherine Tuominen from Catalyst Brand Strategy to unpack ethical marketing in a practical way: serving the customer’s needs, avoiding misleading edits or “Franken-grabbing,” and building a message you can repeat without sounding robotic. We get concrete about brand storytelling, from finding the turning point that sparked the business to adding the gritty details that make someone say, “I’ve been there.” Tuominen shares how to keep your core narrative consistent while refreshing it with timely lenses like AI, anniversaries, and local moments.

We also talk photography business marketing beyond discounts, including how to sell the value of photo printing, photo books, wall art, and prints by leaning into tactile, analog appeal. If you’re thinking about in person events, we break down “event activations,” strategic partnerships, sponsors, and how to track ROI with QR codes, UTMs, email nurture campaigns, and clear objectives. Wrap it all with a hard truth for small business owners: growth often requires saying no and focusing on what actually moves the needle.

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Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Erin Manning 0:09

Welcome to tThe Dead Pixels Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau

Gary Pageau 0:23

Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Katherine Tuominen, who is with Catalyst Brand Strategy, Hi Kathryn, how are you today?

Katherine Touminen 0:34

Thanks so much for having me on the podcast, Gary.

Gary Pageau 0:37

So tell us a little bit about your journey into B2B marketing communications, 'cause that's not typically the thing that people like say, "I'm just hankering to go into that."

From Product Placement To Ethics

Katherine Touminen 0:50

The short version is I actually started in film and TV. I don't know if you've ever been to the cinemas and seen a superhero pick up a Coca-Cola can. That is product placement, and that is a form of marketing. And, it's very much where I began to learn that you can put a celebrity in front of your brand, but that doesn't mean that it will truly translate into sales or a meaningful customer engagement. And so it led me down a long rabbit hole of, what really is high-quality marketing, what is ethical marketing, what isn't- and can we tell better stories, especially for those who may be a bit hesitant to share their story?

Gary Pageau 1:22

So let's go into that definition of what ethical marketing is, because it- you're not really necessarily talking about, a political position or a social movement. You're talking about being authentic.

Katherine Touminen 1:34

So in terms of ethical marketing, as exactly as you touched on, it can vary a little bit, in terms of that definition. But the way I personally define it is going back to the intention of who you're serving. So to give you an example, in the film world, which I'm sure your audience will appreciate, there is a term called Frankengrabbing, and that's basically where you can edit things in a way that it makes it seem completely different from what that person originally said. And likewise, in the PR world or in the written space, you can misquote someone. And this is an example of how you can serve an agenda that may not be the original attention, attention of that, intention of that founder.

Gary Pageau 2:09

When we're talking about people in our business which is the photo imaging business- where would you start if you were, let's say, you have an established business, it's been in the community for a while, but you may not have a lot of awareness, right? You may not have a lot of general awareness. You've been around for a while, you've taken pictures of schools, the Little League pictures. And your people used to bring their film, and now they get their Christmas cards made or whatever. People kinda know you're there, but you don't really have a story in the- marketplace. Where would you start with someone like that?

Katherine Touminen 2:41

Yes.

Find The Turning Point Story

Katherine Touminen 2:42

The biggest place I often suggest people start is their turning point. So if you look at any kind of story arc, it always starts with a beginning, middle, and end. And that middle is where the conflict begins. And so a lot of people try and stay away from the conflict 'cause they, they're not sure how to approach it or they don't want to seem, like there's an issue here. But actually, those moments are what humanize the brand, and often what helps you connect with your end consumer. So whether that conflict was the reason why you started your brand or business in the first place, or whether that conflict was something that you experienced along the way, it can anchor the brand into being not just like a faceless conglomerate, but actually being the heart and the human behind what you've built. And so that's really usually where we suggest starting if someone's thinking about building their story.

Gary Pageau 3:25

So when you talk about, like in your business, there's a big trend among the startup crowd and the VC crowd, give me your why, right? Yeah. Why are you in the business? Is that what you're talking about?

Katherine Touminen 3:38

Yes and no. Sometimes, though, give me your why, it's almost like positive to the point of dilution i- when I've seen it done wrong. Exactly. It's "I wanna save the world." Yeah, that's cool. So does everyone. But what does that actually mean? So what I say in this case is we want a little bit more of that grit, really that pain point or that moment where you're like, "I'm done. This is ridiculous." "The way this has been working previously just doesn't work anymore, and here's a new approach to it." So really speaking to the pains and problems, which anyone in the marketing world obviously is familiar with, because that's really what's going to appeal to the end user, the customer, the patients, and otherwise. So I would say that's the key piece that's often missing when it comes to telling a great story, that... And it can also be a villain or a competitor or, a different way of doing it that was, misaligned with the way you see that direction of the business.

Gary Pageau 4:29

So an example could be, like, why you've made a choice for a certain camera platform or a certain technology you're using, a print technology or something, because maybe you had a uncomfortable experience with a prior, platform.

Katherine Touminen 4:45

Exactly, yes. And from a pr- you mentioned printing. Who doesn't wanna occasionally just smash their printer into a million pieces- for not functioning in a way that it should? So- Exactly I think everyone can relate to these moments.

Gary Pageau 4:57

So how do you turn something like that into a story? Let's say for example, you've got someone who said, "Hey, I was working for X company. I thought I could do it better, so I started Y company." And- Some people may say, "Hey, that's a negative," because left them and you're trying to steal- Yeah their customers or whatever it is. So is... Where would you start with something like that?

Katherine Touminen 5:19

Yes, I would say to ground it into the details. So it can be really tempting to keep it almost so broad that i- anyone could plug and play that into their own- message. And so in this case, you actually wanna say, "I was at my desk the printer broke," or, "This thing happened, and I thought, you know what? Enough is enough. I'm never gonna do this again. There has to be a better way." "And that led me down a rabbit hole to find, to develop Y, and now we have this business." So you wanna get down to the granular where someone can see themselves in your story, where someone can visualize- Sure "Oh, I can clearly make that bridge." And the story feels a lot more real and personal.

Repeat The Message Without Stale

Gary Pageau 5:57

Now, one of the challenges people have in marketing is repetition, the fact that- messages need to be repeated to catch on.

Katherine Touminen 6:07

Yes.

Gary Pageau 6:07

People sometimes feel that, "I told that story once, and I don't need to tell it again 'cause either, A, everyone knows it, or I'm tired of telling it." How do you make a message like that fresh? Because it does need repeating, right? You're gonna have to tell that story- over and over again until your audience is probably sick of it.

Katherine Touminen 6:26

Yes. I often say that just because you said it a million times doesn't mean the audience has heard and seen it. Yeah, and so you unfortunately just have to keep repeating it, but the way to keep it fresh is to tie it in with timely events that may offer a new lens as to what's happening. So for example, you mentioned, storytelling in, in general, and obviously it's been around since the dawn of time. But, today we could be talking more about AI and how that's changing stories. And so you're able to layer in these newsworthy or timely events to give a slightly fresh take on your story. And that will also keep it more interesting for you as well.

Gary Pageau 7:01

Okay. So even like a company anniversary perhaps would be a, would be also an opportunity for something like that?

Katherine Touminen 7:09

So for a barista, exactly, there's always something new that's happening in the space. Maybe locally, there's some changes to the buildings that are going on or- it can be all kinds of things, but there's always something going on, no matter what industry.

Gary Pageau 7:20

So that is, I think, a challenge for people who may not be marketing-orientated, right? Because what I find with a lot of, my listeners is, they got in the business because they love photography, they love the process, they love customers or they're not really, they didn't get into it because they love storytelling.

Katherine Touminen 7:37

Right.

Gary Pageau 7:38

So what are some resources people can look to get up to speed on this?

Katherine Touminen 7:43

My biggest advice is you don't have to obviously go out and become an influencer, a thought leader, any of these kind of terms that you hear, or, and you don't have to chase every trend. You very much, you've gotten to where you are because you're good at your zone of genius in the area that you love doing. So instead of trying to spread yourself thin, like going across all these platforms, instead it's more about highlighting your strengths in a way that works for you. So it means that you can show up once on a podcast like this, and that can become, 30 days of content that you then share out to your team or someone else. The intern, the junior, whoever that is- who can then ch- disperse this in a way that's meaningful without taking any more of your time.

Gary Pageau 8:19

You use, just use the phrase zone of genius?

Katherine Touminen 8:23

Yes.

Gary Pageau 8:25

Is that your phrase? I've never heard that before. That's awesome.

Katherine Touminen 8:27

That's fair. No, it's not my phrase. It's just a term, yeah.

Gary Pageau 8:31

When we're talking about something topical like AI, which a lot of people, there's a lot of backlash, in that. And actually, you know- People are wrestling with it in a lot of different ways, right? Authenticity of images and things like that. So if someone were to ask you, let's say for example, you are a, you're a photo lab or whatever, and people ask you, "How are you using AI?" And what are some of the... How could you spin something like that into a story?

Katherine Touminen 9:01

So in terms of the AI piece there's a lot of different ways that it could be spun into a story. I think it would come down to the end objective of that person. But- it could be an element of, if you're doing a series of stories, maybe the first post or the first picture tells the setup, the behind the scenes. Yeah. Maybe the getting ready for whatever it may be. And then you have that middle point where, it might be the main celebration or the main, point of the event, you know- you mentioned earlier. Sure. Capturing that kind of key monumental moment. And then the third thing is the close, maybe it's the crowd cheering people on. A final, the tone you wanna leave people with. So again, walking through that three arc narrative structure. You have the beginn- beginning, you have the middle, and you have the end. And whether you choose to format that in visual posts, static, pictures, things like that, or a, kind of video sequence or series- those are a few ideas that might be helpful.

Gary Pageau 9:53

You know, a lot of marketing in the photo space is very price-driven, right? 50 cents off, 20% off deal. But the content, the products that the industry is selling are, very emotional. They're very valuable. They're once in a lifetime things. And-

Katherine Touminen 10:12

Yes

Gary Pageau 10:13

it seems like, that would be a more useful approach than just, "Hey, I'm I got 10% off if you give me this coupon." How would you suggest someone adjust their s- their messaging along those lines? Because I think long-term for the health of any industry,

Katherine Touminen 10:30

you

Gary Pageau 10:31

know- Whether it's restaurants, whether it's photo, whether it's anything- Yes it's the value of what you're doing- versus the price you're charging.

Katherine Touminen 10:40

You touched on something super important, which is the emotional piece. And so obviously, that's what gets most, pretty much anyone to buy. Even calculated thinkers are still making somewhat of an emotional decision when they decide to invest with your business or brand.

Sell Emotion Not Discounts

Katherine Touminen 10:53

And so the biggest way to pull out the emotion in visuals or in your story is by showcasing the person. So it could be through expressions, it could be through the community that's been gathered, but also creating this sense of, wishing to be there. M- making the event, that moment, that capture feel as real as possible, and that is a big difference between what we're seeing with the AI slop versus- these kind of authentic curated moments that really tug at the heartstrings and make people think, "Oh, what is this? What is this speaking for?" And you can look at, a lot of the current advertisements in the space, when it comes to capturing memories or capturing moments and, the way they express that through the visuals and the copy. And that's a good start if you're looking at, inspiration or where to begin.

Gary Pageau 11:35

Part of the challenge that the photo printing business has is- transferring that into a printed object of some sort, whether it's wall art or a print or a framed- picture or something is part of the challenge is c- because people are unlike the analog days of film, people are now flooded- with images, right? They're, they're- So what are some of your thoughts there on, on creating that urgency to get someone to actually transact and follow

Make Printing Feel Tangible

Gary Pageau 12:05

through on printing?

Katherine Touminen 12:06

Actually, there's a big trend in the next generation for the analog trend. So people are switching off- Oh, absolutely devices. Yeah, and I think that we can double down on that by saying, that this is something physical and tactile, so you can lean on other sensory elements by showing that tactile piece.

Gary Pageau 12:21

People Yeah.

Katherine Touminen 12:22

Yeah. And so I think that can help really ground it into being something that they can hold and cherish, and it's not just, as you said, another image that they swipe through, but instead it's something that can live in these spaces. And then also demoing what that actually might look like for them. So they're, you're bridging the gap in their mind between what this could look like in their homes or what this could look like in their spaces and venues and what it actually would, and then, translating that through your- various communications and visuals.

Gary Pageau 12:49

Because that is one of the challenges that the industry's had for, 20 years is- You know, for example, photo books are a big category, right? The- Yeah the taking your pictures and putting them in a book, right? And then there's, people, the abandonment rate is actually still quite high. It's, well over 65% of people who start a book and then never finish it. Cause there's, they've realized it's getting too expensive, or some of those things, right? So-

Katherine Touminen 13:14

Interesting

Gary Pageau 13:15

so there's always this challenge of, if we can just put the products in people's hands- So they can say, "Wow, I can now see my, I can feel my pictures could be in this great book," right?

Katherine Touminen 13:26

Yes.

Gary Pageau 13:27

What are some ways people could engage more in-person stuff? 'Cause that's where I'd take this. I think the knee-jerk reaction people have is, "Oh, we gotta do more online. We gotta do more-" TikToks. We gotta do more Facebook ads. We gotta do all this." But it's really, I think, the in-person engagements that are gonna make people transact.

Katherine Touminen 13:44

So for example, we call it strategic partnerships, but it's where you might reach out to maybe it's like a scrapbook, expert or an illustrator or, one of those comic book drawers who are really good at doing 30 seconds and they capture your facial expressions. Yeah. And y- you bring together all these different creatives under an event or, a venue, and then you invite people in your local, brick-and-mortar neighborhood, and then

Events And Strategic Partnerships

Katherine Touminen 14:07

basically create an event activation about this. Yes, it's promoting your products, but it's promoting them as a secondary part of that experience. And of course, they're seeing the products, they're interacting with it firsthand. They're getting to know the people, the staff on the ground, and that creates such a deep level of connection that just can't be replicated by just- swiping a viral TikTok thing. So we've noticed that there's a lot more long-term clients that are established from doing these types of events and activations, and it's truly worth investing in. And also a big setback that we hear a lot is, the cost that might be required to facilitate something like this. And the reality is if you're doing it right, you should at least be breaking even because you can have sponsors at that event. You can have people, vendors who are, basically paying to be in front of an, an engaged audience and really make it worthwhile so everyone wins. And that's where it can be helpful to have, someone advocating on your behalf and negotiating these sorts of deals.

Gary Pageau 15:01

That was my next question. You kinda got into that which was the ROI piece, right? Because- Yeah one of the challenges anyone has with any kind of marketing campaign, whether it's, a digital, online, in person, sampling, couponing, whatever, is tracking the ROI, right? It's all different. How- Yes what are some of the metrics you can use to assess kind of the program you were talking about? Like you said, the objective might be to break even, right? But long term- you want to be able to track- Either the loyalty of the customers or word of mouth or whatever.

ROI Metrics And Follow Up Systems

Katherine Touminen 15:37

Yeah, so a big mistake that we've seen are people who only focus on the physical so much to the point that they forget to do digital touchpoints in a cohesive way afterwards, and so you've missed out on the opportunity to really leverage that audience when they have had the best experience possible. We wanna make sure that you have the right systems in place. That could be email nurture campaigns, which is marketing for sending them the right email at the right time- to then continue keeping them engaged, and then also having things like QR codes that capture the moments in an easy way, and they can easily cross-promote and share that on their socials. And so you're using things like UTMs and, tagging to easily be able to identify how many people actually shared that post or shared this momentum. And then of course there's other more generic things like ticket sales or, number of attendees and, number of partners secured and booths. So there's a lot of different kind of metrics that we use to decide on how successful that event was, but those are a few that we would begin with so you can see- that it's worthwhile repeating.

Gary Pageau 16:35

Because it varies by approach, right? If you're doing- just straight couponing, like 2% redemption rate is awesome, right? But if it's an email campaign, that's different, right? That's part of the challenge you have is you get various metrics there to assess.

Katherine Touminen 16:51

And so we would always have to go back to the objectives of- creating that event in the first place, and then decide on that before going in and obviously putting all the effort into the investment and pulling off an event like this. But, most of the time we find that the, you wanna be measuring both short-term, goals and KPIs as well as the long term. So it could be that short term, break even, and then long term, we get X amount of customers, and you're clear on what that long term typically is based on your customer lifetime cycle.

Gary Pageau 17:18

That's interesting 'cause, and really what you're talking about then again is also repetitiveness, right? Once you do this wildly successful activation or event, you wanna do it again.

Katherine Touminen 17:29

Right.

Gary Pageau 17:30

Maybe with a different theme, maybe a different venue- or something to mix it up a little bit to keep it fresh, but maintain that. It's g- because like any marketing, function that we ta- repetition is important.

Katherine Touminen 17:42

Yeah. And maybe on that as well, this is really what we're talking about is word-of-mouth marketing at scale. Because it's not just the people who are attending that event who will be talking about it, sharing it with their friends, posting about it, if done well, it's also the vendors. They are, they have an incentive to cross-promote this as well. So you're not doing, approaching this solo. You've really teamed up with kind of the best in the industry that you can to create an event that amplifies naturally as part of those agreements that you- set forth even before that event goes live. So it really does end up being worthwhile, 'cause you're basically sharing resources, and you're all in it for a mutually beneficial win.

Narrow The Offer Without Overwhelm

Gary Pageau 18:14

So when it comes to refining your message, what we've found in the photo imaging space is, you've got a catalog of products you can offer. You've got, mugs and prints and books and canvases, wall decor, metal. All these things, but that's a very- broad message, right? It's almost too much for people- to determine. How would you suggest someone from a marketing messtand- standpoint decide on what to focus on? Is it just the stuff you make the most margin on, or what? How do you narrow down your marketing message when it comes to products?

Katherine Touminen 18:53

That's a good question. So I would say- it really comes down to the existing resources and systems you already have. Okay. There's al- there's so many shiny object syndrome happening- Exactly right now in the space. Exactly. And so actually we find that sometimes it's just about going back to the fundamentals. What is currently really working well within your marketing ecosystem and within your suite, and how can you double down on that and enhance it? And that's usually the best place to start because it's low uplift and high leverage. Rather than starting a whole new platform, having the big learning curve, having to build it all up from scratch, you can be thinking about what are we already doing that's pretty good? But maybe if we just tweaked it a little bit, it could be incredible." So that's usually where we would begin. So yeah it's a bit broad, but start with an audit. Really work on what's already working, but then make it better. And then you can say, "Okay, we have the extra cash flow, or we have the extra channels to try this other thing which parallels what we've worked well in- yeah previously." But, yeah, we're... there's something to go off.

Gary Pageau 19:48

Because there's, in some ways there's a lot of people who are very production-focused in the industry, right? They buy a piece of equipment because they like to make things. And so then when they buy the piece of equipment, they say we have to feed this piece of equipment. We have to make things with it." So the objective is really, "I have something new I need to-" create more products based on this thing, but it's not really driven by a business need or what the market is asking for, it's just 'cause you bought something new. And so-

Katherine Touminen 20:15

you

Gary Pageau 20:16

That's where I was getting at with was the narrowing down is maybe focus on the needs of the customers as opposed- to the needs of the business to, get some volume through a piece of equipment.

Katherine Touminen 20:28

in marketing we call this cannibalization- Yeah 'cause it's basically that product is eating the profit margins of another product, and it creates more overwhelm for the consumer because they don't know what to choose, and there's too many- options. Whenever you're looking at your product stack or suite, you really need to make sure that there is truly a place in this through the- eyes of the consumer and not just to fulfill like your own product needs.

Gary Pageau 20:48

And the other thing is too is let's flip that on its ear.

Use AI For Market Research

Gary Pageau 20:51

Let's say for example you, you buy this piece of equipment, and primarily you're dealing, you're selling mostly to consumers, people walking into your store, ordering online, buying this thing, but maybe there's a business-to-business market for- What this piece of equipment can produce. How would you suggest extending your reach? Without abandoning your current one, obviously.

Katherine Touminen 21:11

Yes

Gary Pageau 21:11

people are always looking where's my next pool of customers coming from?

Katherine Touminen 21:15

So whether it's B2B or B2C, we always say it's a person at the end of that anyway. And so it often comes down to going back to what we were already saying where, what is the pain point? What is that emotional hook that we can- pull out from the next target audience that we're aiming to find? And from our standpoint, we're never just guessing this. There is so much data available online. It's really more about unearthing that. So a tip that I would recommend any basically business owners do if they're exploring a new market is you can get so much great data using tools like, AI tools to scrape, forums like Reddit and, general kind of questions that might be asked. You'll notice that there's often patterns in s- the words that they use over and over again. So it could be like, "I'm struggling with X," and then that X word gets repeated over and over again across all these different patterns. And that's when you know, okay, this is an unmet need. And then from there, you use- that keyword across your landing pages, your email marketing, your outreach, your ads, and you're going in knowing that this is already how they speak. This is the terms that they're using to describe their pains and their desired state, and then that helps you make a much more informed decision for your next go to market or, a targeted campaign.

Gary Pageau 22:22

Okay. That's interesting. I hadn't really thought about that from the standpoint of, you doing a, an AI powered, topics- Market research basically. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So but isn't that time consuming? Again, most of the people who I'm, running into in my bus- in, in our business are, they're dealing with a bunch of other things every day, right? That's- that's one of the challenges is the challenge of running a business day to day as a small business owner, right? You've got, the person didn't show up today who was gonna work the counter, and the- Yeah and the printer's busted, as you mentioned earlier, and you got those- so what's a reasonable amount of time, or should just people just make this part of their everyday routine? Every day for half an hour I'm gonna look for this kind of stuff. Is that, is this the kind of thing where you just have to build up a discipline to do that? Or sh- can you just tackle it as a project?

Katherine Touminen 23:10

I think it comes down to that person and how they prefer to run their business. Okay. The great thing about these tools is they do it for you. It probably takes 20 minutes to, to feed in the prompt, give it what it needs to know, give it the kind of like right skills and insights, and then access to whatever, Google or whichever platform you're using. And then it can run, and it'll give you a good scrape. But you'll of course need to go back in and say, "Actually, I think something's missing here," or, "Have you considered this?" And so feed into that. But really it wouldn't take more than like 30 minutes, to get that first output. That's one of the cool- things about AI these days. It's taking, something that would've taken forever to manually scrape previously is now done in a matter of minutes, so this is a good use

Time Management And Saying No

Katherine Touminen 23:45

of time.

Gary Pageau 23:45

'Cause really time management, I think, is one of the challenges people are running into now, especially when they look at a new marketing campaign, right? 'Cause then when you say, "Hey, listen, we wanna start an event, and we're gonna invite a bunch of vendors," or whatever the... immediately I think a lot of people would be like, "Oh my gosh, how much time is that gonna take?"

Katherine Touminen 24:01

That's fair, and I think this is where it comes to knowing, like, when it's worth outsourcing or getting someone else to manage this for you- and then again justifying the returns from there. So that's something to weigh up, but if someone was trying to DIY it, I would say, really it's a matter of looking at you've been doing business a certain way up, up until this point, and maybe you've hit a wall, or maybe you're you haven't been able- Right to reach that next milestone, so you have to do something different- to get to that next point. And so then it's worth weighing up. Actually, I think it is worth maybe removing this other thing that's just mindless whatever that I can get the junior to do- Yeah. Yeah and instead focusing on this new avenue, which will bring me the better clients, the better results- and start heading me in the direction that I know the business can go.

Gary Pageau 24:42

And the other thing may be to stop doing some things.

Katherine Touminen 24:46

Yep.

Gary Pageau 24:46

That's one of the suggestions I've often heard from people is, maybe there's things you shouldn't be doing and because... But you've always done them, so you do them.

Katherine Touminen 24:55

I think saying no is such a big key, and then you're making better use of your time by focusing on that kind of one big piece that will truly move the needle forward with your next goals and outcomes instead of, yeah, getting bogged down with the day-to-day. Yeah. Easier said than done, but worth aspiring towards.

Gary Pageau 25:10

Yeah, saying no to other people is sometimes easier than saying no to yourself. Let's say there's something you've always liked to do, and then you find out it's not working, but you like to do it, so you do it anyway, right? I've run into a lot of small business owners like that, right? They have a dinner they always sponsor at the chamber of commerce, and it's $3,000, but they get nothing out of it. But they like doing it.

Katherine Touminen 25:29

That's fair, yeah. I like to use the Eisenhower Matrix for this. You can look it up, but it's like a quadrant and it's like urgent, important, not urgent, not important, and then you can add an extra kind of quadrant within that says enjoy it but no, no profits. And so I usually keep the enjoy, no profits as like a second, third tier- Yeah until I really can't justify it anymore. But if it's like not enjoying it, not profitable, that's the first thing to go on your list. So it's worth sitting down even for 30 minutes and doing a bit of an audit on, okay, where am I spending my days? How can I use this, matrix or whatever to determine what is that next thing

Where To Learn More

Katherine Touminen 26:02

to say no to?

Gary Pageau 26:02

So listen, where can people go for more information to learn about Catalyst Brand Strategy and what you folks do?

Katherine Touminen 26:10

Yes, you're welcome to connect with me via LinkedIn. It's just Catherine, Tuominen, or you can visit our website at www.catalystbrandstrategy.com,

Gary Pageau 26:19

Thank you, Catherine. It's been great meeting you and talking, and I loved getting new insights on marketing approaches, and I'm sure there's a lot there for my listeners. So thank you so much.

Katherine Touminen 26:29

I've truly enjoyed our conversations. Thank you, Gary.