Building A Photography Business With PPA Tools, with Angela Kurkian

AI can generate a believable image in seconds, so why does real photography still matter, and how do working photographers protect what they create? We’re joined by Angela Kurkian, CEO of Professional Photographers of America (PPA), to talk about the parts of the job that don’t show up in a highlight reel: Building a sustainable photography business, finding community, and defending your rights as a creator.

Kurkian and Gary Pageau of The Dead Pixels Society dig into what makes PPA different as one of the oldest nonprofit photography associations, including the mission to support photographers as small business owners and the idea of serving both the creative artist and the business warrior. She shares her own path through the industry, what she learned in a high-volume studio, and why so many photographers struggle when pricing becomes a guessing game. Kurkian also get practical about tools and benchmarks that help you plan revenue, cost of sales, expenses, and owner pay so a photographer's rates match the life they desire.

Kurkian also talks about industry pressure points, like AI in photography and copyright. She explains why PPA’s advocacy in Washington, DC focuses on intellectual property, what photographers misunderstand about copyright registration, and why AI-generated headshots and images raise real ownership and enforcement questions. We also cover where to get vetted education and community support through PPA, including Photovision and local networks.

The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is powered by ScanMyPhotos, serving the photo industry for more than 30 years.

ScanMyPhotos
ScanMyPhotos provides professional digitization services for photos, negatives, slides, and more

Energize your sales with Shareme.chat, the proven texting platform. 

ShareMe.Chat 
ShareMe.Chat platform uses chat-to-text on your website to keep your customers connected and buying!

Mediaclip
Mediaclip strives to continuously enhance the user experience while dramatically increasing revenue.

Independent Photo Imagers
IPI is a member + trade association and a cooperative buying group in the photo + print industry.

Buzzsprout - Let's get your podcast launched!
Start for FREE

Photo Imaging CONNECT
The Photo Imaging CONNECT conference, March 2027, at the RIO Hotel and Resort in Las Vegas, N

ScanMyPhotos
ScanMyPhotos provides professional digitization services for photos, negatives, slides, and more

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Sponsors And Show Welcome

Erin Manning 0:10

The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Media clip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers. Welcome to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Meet PPA CEO Angela Kirkian

Gary Pageau 0:27

Hello again, and welcome to The Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we have the honor and privilege to be hosting the CEO of PPA, Angela Kurkian. And Angela is joining us from the palatial PPA headquarters. Like I said, an honor and a pleasure to welcome you to the podcast to talk all things PPA.

Angela Kurkian 0:51

Thanks so much, Gary. I'm so excited to chat with you today. This is gonna be fun.

PPA’s Mission For Photographers

Gary Pageau 0:56

So let's talk a little bit about PPA in general. It's one of the oldest nonprofit associations. I think it's the oldest one in the photography industry.

Angela Kurkian 1:05

It is.

Gary Pageau 1:06

And just tell us about the mission of PMA because there's a lot of industry groups out there, right? There's uh WPPI, there's IPC, there's all kinds of different groups, but PPA is different. And how is it different?

Angela Kurkian 1:20

So PPA is really special to me. For those of you who don't know PPA, it's professional photographers of America. And PPA has been around since 1868, which is it's a minute, right? It's almost 160 years and since photography came to America. And and I have a strong love for it. I've been a member actually of PPA since 1994. And so as a photographer growing up in this industry, I've been coming to conferences. Pretty much this has been my entire career. And interestingly, I fell in love with the people of photography before I actually fell in love with photography. And so for me to get to sit in the seat and to serve this industry this way is just fills my heart because I adore this profession and I adore the people of this profession. And and the mission for PPA, which is essentially to support small businesses, photographers as small business owners, and to support small business in America. What does that look like? And all of the work that we do behind the scenes to just support the craft that is photography and copyright. And there's the business of photography behind behind all of that. And of course, the the craft is the other side of it, right? And so we have the International Photographic Competition, IPC that we have annually. And yeah, so I think our hope is to be able to support both the what we lovingly refer to as the creative artist, right? And then also the business warrior. So those two halves of ourselves that it requires be a professional photographer in the world.

Gary Pageau 2:51

So

Angela’s Path Into The Industry

Gary Pageau 2:52

before we get into more PPA goodness, tell us a little bit about your journey through the industry. Like you've been above 94. Clearly, a lot has changed, right? That was film, right? That was you know, you're schlepping two SORs and you got uh a bricks of film and you're doing crazy stuff and you're proofing, and you're I remember those days, and it was a crazy time. What brought you into the industry? Because you seem to be like you seem like you have a heart for the creative side, but clearly you know the business side as well.

Angela Kurkian 3:24

Yeah, I would say I'm probably more passionate about the business side, to be really honest. So I was I was young in in college when I met my mentors, Susan and Stuart Powers. They were photographing weddings every weekend at the country club that I worked in. And I ended up getting to know them and I started traveling with them to conferences like FPP, Florida Professional Photographers Annual Conference. And I would come to imaging with them. And I truly just thought I can learn photography. Like I can figure that out, right? And so I graduated from college, had a year of trying to figure out what I was gonna do. And then I ended up going into the profession in 1994. I was 23 and just really getting to learn from some of the most remarkable people, truly. I would say the thing that I love most about, you know, as I look back on my career, I can honestly say that I would not be here without the community that that I was fortunate enough to be a part of. And that is all based in PPA. And I think that is the core part of my the base part of my love for PPA is the community, the people. And so you're gonna hear me talk a lot about relationship and relationship building because honestly, I think that's the core of success at any level, right? None of us get here alone.

Gary Pageau 4:37

It is one of the challenges that people are passionate about anything, like any business they get into, whether it's photography, bakery, hair salons or whatever, right? They get into it for the passion of the business, and then they discover or the passion for the craft, if you will, and then they discover the business side is really what keeps them afloat. How long did that take for you to realize that? Oh my gosh, I've got to go to the chamber of commerce meeting, I've got to go to the wedding expo, I've got to get referrals, I gotta invoice properly, I gotta watch my costs, I gotta buy insurance, I gotta do all these things that I didn't sign up for because I just want to take pay chairs.

Learning Business In High Volume Studios

Angela Kurkian 5:21

Yeah, that I would say I'm a little bit different in that, only because I actually ended up working with a very large studio immediately. And so at that studio, we had 15 photographers on staff. We photographed this is back in the days, y'all. I'm gonna admit to this, we photographed bunny portraits at Easter. So we were doing 350 bunny portraits at Easter, high volume studio is my point. Yeah, and so when I jumped into this, I jumped into a very busy business and I learned the business side. That was the very first thing I learned. And so I did that for a couple of years, and that that was a lot. And then I ended up opening my own business in 1999. And as a sole proprietor, you're right, Gary. We wear so many hats, right? There's so much to know and there's so much to learn. And that's probably again why I'm so passionate about teaching business, because I can also say I have probably made every mistake there is to make.

Gary Pageau 6:14

So yeah, exactly. And that's that's a painful, but it is one of the ways humans learn is getting burnt your hand on the stove a couple of times.

Angela Kurkian 6:22

Yes, over and over again, especially as a creative, because I think I think our hearts are always forward. And so we have to we have to also put on our business hats. And when I teach, one of the things I tell people is there's certain things that I learned, and that you're running a really big business that were super helpful. But then there's a different strategies and different tactics when you're running something that ended up quite large but started off small, right? But there was a point, I was a probably about six years in, and I remember going to this class with Ann Monteith, and I learned some things in that class. You know who I'm talking about, right?

Gary Pageau 6:54

Anne of course.

Angela Kurkian 6:55

She's remarkable. Oh my gosh, she's so fantastic at teaching business. And I learned some things like I learned about PPA's benchmark study, and I learned about cost of sales percentages that were benchmarked. So I had some some numbers to aim for. These are actual, there's actually math that you can do to determine some of these things.

Gary Pageau 7:14

I know. Math it's crazy.

Angela Kurkian 7:16

Are you kidding me? Why didn't anybody ever tell me this?

Gary Pageau 7:20

That's why you had to go to a conference and learn it, right?

Angela Kurkian 7:23

I teach some of that foundational stuff that even if you've been in business for a minute, there's little tweaks you can make to your thinking and to the way you do things and the way you strategize that can make huge differences in your outcome. So yeah, that's my love, is is getting to share some of that.

Gary Pageau 7:38

So from the beginning, you said you went to uh a local A event. Yeah, Lorda. Were you consistent throughout all of that time period going to whatever the local PPA was and then going to the national?

Angela Kurkian 7:50

Back in the day. Back in the day, you I know I feel like an old lady.

Gary Pageau 7:55

Yeah, I was there, so trust me.

Angela Kurkian 7:58

You would go to your state and then you would go to your regional, and then you would go to your national. So going to Imaging USA was going to nationals. So when you spoke about it, that was kind of the the the order of things. And so we have different names for things now, but it's really very similar. There's local guilds, which you guys, I'm gonna preach. Our community networks are remarkable. They are remarkable. And just being part, I actually just got to visit down in Florida a couple of different groups. And the just community building is so important in the world these days. So I think, yeah, getting involved in your community networks, getting involved at the local level, getting involved in your state organization, and then of course being at imaging is just kind of the icing on the cake at the end of the year. There you have it. Yeah.

Gary Pageau 8:43

So

Why Local Guilds Still Matter

Gary Pageau 8:44

let's talk a little bit about what's changed over the last say 10, 15 years, because a lot has changed, right? There are very few storefront studios with 15 photographers anymore, for sure. And so now that there's fewer storefront studios with 15 photographers as you grow up with it, the whole business model has changed a lot in terms of expenditure and marketing and everything. How is PPA adapted to that reality?

Angela Kurkian 9:40

Yeah, our membership has grown substantially, and I think that's because the the barrier to entry to become a photographer is fairly low. When I first started, and when we first started, you had to, I had a medium format cameras, and it was just a very different business model, right? People expected you to have a location for them to come to. They expected a studio setting. That was the style of the photography in those days. Yes.

Gary Pageau 10:06

There was the whole system set up to display proofs and project them on a big screen so people would buy the big prints.

Angela Kurkian 10:13

Yeah, we had a whole and so I think when the last we'll say the last 20 years, we've gone from film to digital. And so you and I both went through that transition. We were photographing weddings with film for a lot of years. I had my Bronica medium format square negatives. And so moving into the the digital world at that time and comparing that to what we're going through now with this AI shift. It's just these technological advances obviously do a lot of disruption in our industry. But I also think that photography, I honestly believe that photography is relational by nature. Literally, it's built into photography. You're either photographing a person, which is a relationship or a product, or you're you're creating an image that is for someone else to see. So there's never an individual component of it in the sense of relationship, right? And so I think there is that through line through all of the technological changes that we're gonna be going through, and as we are already starting in the last few years with AI, but I can also equate it to some of the changes that we went through from film to digital and what that looks like.

Gary Pageau 11:24

It's it's one of those things where when people have an AI discussion now, it reminds me of when people were talking about in the 90s what

From Film To Digital To AI

Gary Pageau 11:33

Photoshop was gonna do, and people aren't gonna trust images anymore because you can edit them and all that. I remember I went to a press photographers conference on, and they were talking about how they were gonna make rules for press photographers in the 90s that if you couldn't do it in a dark room, you couldn't do it on a computer. It's the same sort of discussion now with what AI can do. Now, I would argue that the difference really is photographers back then were uncomfortable with the idea that their images, their creation could be edited as easily as text, right? Yes, it was uncomfortable for them to give up that kind of control. And I think there's been a a sea change in the idea of what photographers really now it's like they shoot for the edit, they know I'll fix that in post and everything, right? The whole psychology has changed.

Angela Kurkian 12:25

Absolutely, and it's also a societal change, yeah. And so it's not something that's just affecting photographers. Going to digital was a was also a societal change because everybody has a camera on their phone, and so so it's it'll be interesting because it's it is another societal change, right? People are using AI everywhere, and AI is neither good nor bad, it's both. It is a tool, it is neither, right? Yeah, and yeah, it's it'll be an interesting walk, but I also believe the other side of that coin is we're humans and we still we want human interaction. We could wax poetic, I'm sure, and talk phil philosophically the importance of some of this stuff. And I will share with you something that drives me that I heard in 2023 the US Surgeon General at the time was Dr. Vivek Murphy, and he wrote a Surgeon General advisory that the biggest epidemic facing us in the United States was loneliness. And to me, so much of what we do is as photographers, is that relationship component piece, right? We see people, we see relationships, we shine a light on things that are most important in people's lives. And so there's a component to that I think we will be we'll be leaning into.

Gary Pageau 13:38

Yeah, there's a whole philosophy now, which I think and a lot of my audience are trying to lean into is the authenticity of the images and things, right? That there's nothing wrong with a generative AI image specifically in the sense that it's just an image, but in a lot of cases it's for entertainment, right? It's I'm gonna do a goofy. I just posted one the other day of me as a super spy vaulting into a car, right? That was clearly not what I'm doing, but it was a fun thing to create. Yeah, but I'm never gonna print that image, I'm gonna forget about it, right? It's not that important family event or memory that I want to capture. Now, I can use AI enhancement to take out the blemishes and do some different things and maybe improve the workflow, but the original image I think has to be authentic.

Angela Kurkian 14:24

I'd never a word that came up when you were just saying that is disposable.

Gary Pageau 14:28

Yeah, that is a little more disposable.

Angela Kurkian 14:31

Photographs of our families aren't disposable, and we're not gonna want to put AI images because we'd be laughed at, right?

Gary Pageau 14:37

Yeah, and there have been a few people from the technology side who have tried that, right? They said, Hey, upload a your portrait or your picture into this, and then it's you can we'll put you in an AI scene and then you can put that on a canvas, and those have never gone anywhere because just there's not a lot of value in that. But let's talk a little bit about some of the technology stuff that is creeping into the space, right? Like AI portraits, right? That seems to be a thing now. Where hey,

Copyright Scraping And AI Ethics

Gary Pageau 15:01

if you want that headshot for LinkedIn, just take a selfie and we'll clean that up for you. What's the PPA stance on something like that, right?

Angela Kurkian 15:10

Yeah, I don't know that we have a stance, everything is evolving right now, so there's just a lot of moving parts, and we're trying to be mindful that there are segments of the industry that are going to be more affected than others. So I don't know that we have a stance so much on right or wrong, good or bad. Yeah. We're I would say when it comes to AI, the biggest the rock we stand on is the work that we're doing in DC on copyright. Sure. Like literally, so many images were scraped. That was the biggest intellectual property theft in this in the history of the world, where all the images that were scraped to to get all these LLMs working. And so we're on that side of things. Sure. I feel like AI, it's not good or bad, it's how we use it.

Gary Pageau 15:54

There's still a lot of ethical issues, right? And just in terms of, you know, like you were talking earlier about privacy issues, there's copyright issues, and copyright is really one of the issues that I think PPA is well known for is protecting photographers' rights because there's so much ignorance in the general public about copyright. I mean, the example I always use is if I give you my camera to take my picture, even though I've given you my camera and I've given you permission to take my picture, you still own it as the photographer, right? And people just don't people just don't grasp that. Or on the other side of it, what's on the internet, it must be free.

Angela Kurkian 16:37

That is actually one of the biggest things. It's so fascinating to me. I've spent a lot of time in the last year in DC, and I'm still learning. So I'll tell you, I'm still a novice in this. But as I've been learning some of the aha moments that I've had, I think, wow, I've been a professional for three decades. And some of the stuff I didn't realize. And I do have a passion for photographers understanding their rights when it comes to copyright. Absolutely. And yes, do you own your copyright when you photograph, when you take that imit? Absolutely, you own that copyright. But if you don't register your work with the US Copyright Office, you can only get actual damages. You cannot get statutory damages and attorney's fees paid. And if I could just say that and everybody just takes that, that it's so important to register your work. Now, the problem right now is it's also really hard for volume creators, wedding photographers, people who are doing a lot of volume work to register their images. So right now, PPA is working very closely. We have a lobbyist full-time in DC and we go up there monthly. We're working on the Visual Art Arts Copyright Reform Act, which is to create some common sense solutions to allow small high-volume creators to have an easier access to during their work with the copyright office. Yep. Lots of things to know on that end.

Gary Pageau 17:57

But that's one of those like making the sausage stuff that people don't understand. That's what you need an industry association for, right? Because the vendors aren't going to necessarily take that on, and other people you have to need someone to advocate for the creative community. Do you get any help from other industry associations like music or movies to work together on that sort of thing?

Angela Kurkian 18:19

Absolutely. 100%. So we work really closely with ASMP. Their CEO, Tom Madry, is actually a copyright attorney, and he's got a wealth of knowledge and information that he brings to the table. We also work with a coalition of visual artists, and we also, there's other copyright alliance. There's a lot of these groups that have been developed, but we're also meeting with the recording industry artists association and with the authors guild and with the graphic artists guild. At the end of the day, there is a bigger picture here that we're leaning into in our narrative, which is we don't want to wake up in our world where creatives are not incentivized to create. We don't want to wake up in that world. And photography is obviously most important to us because that's our membership. But also just in general, creative, small creators are being really affected by AI and people not really understanding the rules of copyright and intellectual properties.

Gary Pageau 19:14

And the other thing is people don't realize is maybe they create something with an AI, but that's not copyrightable.

Angela Kurkian 19:21

It's not copyrightable, which going back to your headshot analogy earlier, talking about headshots, people don't realize if you have an AI headshot, that's not copyrightable. It's not ownable. And AI can't own anything. Right. Yeah. And so yeah, it's your likeness, it's your image, it's you. You think it's you, but it's if it's on a billboard somewhere and you go by and you're there's your image.

Gary Pageau 19:43

I don't want to turn this into a full-blown AI discussion. That's a whole nother topic. But what I do want to talk about is kind of what we touched on earlier on is the value of photography, right? And how you monetize

Owning Your Value Without Commoditizing

Gary Pageau 19:56

that as a small business because it's getting increasingly difficult because you've got tons of new entrants where, like you said, you've got people who can they can go to a camera store, they can buy a drone, they can buy a camera, whatever, and hang out their shingle and call themselves quote professional, unquote, photographer, and and they can undermine the marketplace with basically bargain basement pricing. And it's and a lot of times it's difficult to compete with. Also, you get people who hang out their shingles, professor fathers, and then they're just terrible. They don't show up, or they there's a lot of damage that can be done to the industry with those kind of folks. So understanding you can't police that, right? You really the best thing you do is educate those folks. But what do you do with the people who in the marketplace have to compete with that?

Angela Kurkian 20:47

Yeah, I think their biggest race to the bottom is when we commoditize our work. Sure. And the more we commoditize it, the more we're going to be facing that AI issue, right? So, really, what we care so much about is educating photographers on owning their value and charging appropriately. So it's not about a certain price point, it's about understanding the value of your time. When I teach, one of the very first questions I ask people is what is your definition of success? Because that's going to really define everything else and how you want to build your business. One of the things I love about photography is that you can build it to fit any lifestyle that you want, right? It is totally up to you. What lifestyle do you want? How much do you want to make? How many days a week do you want to work? How many vacations do you want to take a year? Where do you want to live? Like all of those things. You can build a business around it. But being really intentional with how you do that and understanding what it takes to get there, I think is one of the biggest things that people don't spend the time to plan and to intentionally build their business. They think, oh, I can take pictures. And then someone says, Oh, you should do this as a business. And then they're like, Oh, okay, how much do I charge? I don't know, how much is the guy down the street charging? They're not intentionally building their business based on their own ideation of what they want their life to be. And so I will throw this in there because I think it's an amazing tool. And it's, I always tell people it's kind of an entry-level tool. This is not meant to be your PhD project tool, but we have on PPA.com, if you I think if you go to PPA.com/slash, if it's not there, you can find it under business resources. But the square one tool allows people to go in and to say, okay, I know I want to make X amount of dollars a year. According to the benchmark studies that have been done for gosh, over 25 years at this point, that I know that my cost of sales needs to be 20%. And I know that I need to keep my expenses to a certain percent. Percentage and my, my, so you're looking at all of these things in conjunction to each other based on the benchmark studies. And then you can get a really good sense of, I can tell you just offhand, because I just taught last week in Florida, for someone who wants to make 100,000, according to the benchmarks, you have to sell 222,000. So you start to understand what it takes to run your business. And then I would also say to people, my other huge piece of advice to just own, please let this sink into your DNA. You are not your business. You have to be successful and your business has to be successful. So you have to think of yourself as two entities so that you can pay yourself appropriately and business healthy. Yeah.

Gary Pageau 23:14

That's really great advice because a lot of entrepreneurs they don't pay themselves first and then they realize if they're putting all their money into the infrastructure of the business, and maybe they've got a a second shooter and some other things and they're broke. They're living in their car, but everyone else is doing fine.

Angela Kurkian 23:33

Exactly. Yes.

Gary Pageau 23:37

Yeah, a great point because when people get into a business, a small business person, there is a lot of ego that's inserted into that, right? Has PPA done a survey?

You Are Not Your Business

Gary Pageau 23:46

How many of your members, their businesses name photography?

Angela Kurkian 23:52

We haven't actually done that study yet, but just an anecdotal look would would tell us, yeah.

Gary Pageau 23:58

Probably more than half, at least.

Angela Kurkian 23:59

It is, yeah.

Gary Pageau 24:00

So there is that component, right? And they do take their craft very personally seriously. But you're saying it's you really need to disengage that.

Angela Kurkian 24:07

Absolutely. Yeah, a hundred percent. It's so interesting. I always joke, I married an accountant, and literally he never shows up at a party and says, Hi, my name's Scott. I'm an accountant.

Gary Pageau 24:17

Right.

Angela Kurkian 24:18

Right. But every photographer we know is hi, I'm Angela. I'm a photographer. We are so much what we do, right? And I I actually, it's funny you talk about naming your business. I actually did not name my business. I had a photography studio for 25 years, and I did not name it after me. And I love that I didn't because now my longtime studio manager still runs the business and she's incredibly successful and she has 25 plus years of clients at this point. It's just something to think about.

Gary Pageau 24:44

That is one of the things that I don't know if we have time to get into. Maybe it's another conversation, is the whole idea of passing the business on, right?

Angela Kurkian 24:51

Yeah.

Gary Pageau 24:51

Because that whole decision is how you're going to structure your business.

Angela Kurkian 24:57

It should be part of your thoughts. Yeah.

Gary Pageau 24:59

Because I'm and there's nothing wrong with the idea that, hey, I'm going to start up a business, I'm going to be a professional photographer for 30 years, and then at the end of the that time period, I'm going to just turn the key and I'm done. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you plan for.

Angela Kurkian 25:11

Absolutely. Sure.

Gary Pageau 25:12

If you try to sell your business and your Angela Kurkian in photography, guess what? Angela's not here anymore.

Angela Kurkian 25:18

There's actually someone who's doing a really good job of teaching on that. And I had just written his name down. His name's Mike Price when he talks about that. Yeah. We might have some things for him on PPA.com sometime in the future.

Gary Pageau 25:30

So it sounds to me like you guys have a crazy amount of resources, as you always have had. You've had the magazine and you've had all the various conferences and educational things. You've added a video component to your business. So where can people go to get fully immersed into the professional photographer of America experience?

Angela Kurkian 25:50

Sure. Oh gosh, Gary, I love that you asked me that question. So PBA.com is the easiest, most direct route. Photovision is our new, it's a member benefit.

PPA Resources And Photovision

Angela Kurkian 26:00

So photovision, if you think of it like Netflix for photographers, what we love about Photovision, and one of the things that's most important to us is that we are the most trusted resource for photographers to get their information. Anyone can go scan YouTube and you can learn a lot on YouTube, don't get me wrong. But you have to filter through everything that you're going through, right? But to know, am I learning from someone who is actually doing this? Right.

Gary Pageau 26:24

Has it been vetted is the thing.

Angela Kurkian 26:26

We vet all of our speakers, all of our content. They say that you become the five people that you spend the most time with. And to me, that also extends to books and to videos. Okay. And so if you are reading great books, you get to hang out with Seth Goat and Jim Collins and Stephen Bartlett. And the same thing is true of the video and the content that you're taking in. Are you getting information from people who are where you want to be? So I think that's one, I think it's important for video content. Yes, that's great, but also for in-person conferences and meetings and being part of community networks and just being around people in general who are going to help you get where you want to go, right? Awesome.

Gary Pageau 27:06

Definitely want to send people to PPA.com, which is the home of the oldest photography association on the planet, which is awesome. I just can't stop saying that because I just think that's such a great thing that they've been around so long and be able to adapt it through the changes over the years. Thank you, Angela, for your time and attention today and appreciate all the knowledge you've shared. And hopefully we'll see you in person sometime soon.

Angela Kurkian 27:30

I can't wait, Gary. Thank you so much. You have been so amazing.

Erin Manning 27:35

Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at www.theadpixels

Final Thanks And Where To Follow

Erin Manning 27:44

society.com.