God, Goodness, and Choice: A Conversation with Bruce Reyes-Chow

We speak with Bruce Reyes-Chow about his recent book Everything Good about God Is True, a primer on what it means to choose faith in the midst of a bleeding world and an often broken church. We discuss the Christian ethic of loving enemies, listening, having compassion across ideological division, embodying faith in the public square, biblical literalism, Christian formation, soteriological exclusivism, the eucharist, missions and colonialism, and that time Bruce hung out with Desmond Tutu.

You might notice we're experimenting with some new formatting in this episode. We'd love to hear your thoughts! Drop us a line at the address below or on our social media pages and let us know what you think. Or send along a voice memo to be potentially featured on the show.

Content note: this episode contains some profanity, as well as a monologue from John MacArthur, which is worse.

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Transcript

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Bruce 0:01

Holding that tension between being literal and being inerrant in terms of there is some truth, there's God's truth is held in scripture. I'm perfectly comfortable holding that tension. Not a literalist, but God's truth has spoken to us through scripture. And so there is intention in all of it. Even the intention when we have to struggle with scripture just to say, yeah, that's wrong. And here's why we think that's wrong. And this should not have been included because what humans have done to this with this particular part of scripture, it's been a weaponizing the Bible and all those kind of things.

Kyle 0:35

So today we're talking with Bruce Reyes Chow, who recently wrote a book, and by recently I mean like a couple weeks ago, wrote a book called Everything Good About God Is True. Subtitle is Choosing Faith. He didn't write it a couple weeks ago. It was published a couple of weeks ago. Stupid thing to correct me on.

Randy 0:52

I think this is a great book. It's not super complex, it's a really easy read. For those of us who've been a little bit disillusioned by what we find within Christianity, and in particular American Christianity, everything good about God is true is a good place to start to kind of rekindle that hope-filled, beauty-informed faith journey.

Elliot 1:15

This is a pastor and a philosopher walk into a bar. As Kyle always says, when you're feeling down, just read some philosophy. Randy, Kyle, how are you?

Kyle 1:31

Doing okay. Pretty busy.

Elliot 1:33

How does that work? Kyle, like you're I would imagine you enjoy your thought time. Yeah. And then you've got work. You picked up on that. Do you get to like think about things? Like what's what's normal life for you when it comes to- it all happens here. The podcast.

Kyle 1:51

Yeah. Are you a verbal processor? You know, funnily enough, not really. Um I I'm a I I think best writing. That's where my at least that's where I feel like I'm doing my best thinking, where it's coming out the clearest and the most sophisticated is when I'm writing it down. And I don't get time to write. Um so speech is um unfortunate. Second best. A much lesser substitute for yeah, I've actually never felt like I was very good um extemporaneously. Um maybe because I've just been close to a lot of people who are a lot better at it, but I always think of things later than If I had time to write that out, it would have been really cute.

Elliot 2:34

Uh Randy, I don't want to assume that this is everything that you think about in your like everyday life, but I can say Grace and I have been really been enjoying like the Exodus series, like uh going through about going back into the Old Testament in the context of being a part of Bruce City Church. Like that's been really fun. Uh to whatever extent that's a part of your daily thought life, like I'm sure you're you're deep in that. Like, what are the things that you're thinking about that are a little bit ahead of what you've had a chance to say so far in your sermons and and just in your teaching at Bruce City? I'm curious.

Randy 3:07

Yeah, I mean the timing of the question is interesting because I'm writing a sermon right now for Sunday, and it's out of Exodus 15, and it's dealing with things that we talk about on the podcast, actually. Exodus 15 is a song at the sea, right? So it's Miriam responding and worshiping God for the destruction of the Egyptians in the Red Sea. They all drown and are floating in the sea, and it's like, yeah, praise Jesus! He just killed all the Egyptians. Yeah. And um, it's for me a picture of the Israelites and the people that following God in the scriptures on a journey of discovery as to who God really is. So, an example of what I'm thinking about right now is where you see in Exodus 15 Miriam or the singers of Israel rejoicing and saying, Yahweh is a warrior, right? The Lord is a warrior. That's a striking thing to say and to read while also following a God who says, who appears in in Jesus and says, You've heard it said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I tell you, love your enemy and bless those who persecute you, right? Or the God who hangs on a cross and says and breathes these words of, Father, forgive them, for they know not what they're doing as they're executing him. That's a hard line to swallow when you say the Lord is a warrior in Exodus 15. And in the Gospels, Jesus is blessing those who are executing him at the same time, which is it? Or then at the end of the song at the sea, you see the singers saying singing things like rejoicing about how the Canaanites and the Philistines are trembling in awe of our God because that the anger that fills up his nostrils, he's gonna snuff them out like the wind, or whatever something like that, right? They're just basically saying all these nations around us are gonna be quaking in their boots because they're so scared of what God did to the Egyptians. That's what he's gonna do to them. But then you have this picture in Revelation 5 where it's every tribe, tongue, and nation who are worshiping this same God together, right? And who are doing so in this feeling of just this scene and this vision of unity and worship of the Lamb. And it's by the way, a lamb, not a lion, that you see. There's all this contradiction and paradox within the scriptures, and I want to just draw attention to the fact that I think that the Israelites are a lot like us. They're on a journey of discovery of who God is, they're on a journey of their faith is evolving and their concept of God is evolving. This is the kind of stuff that I've been thinking about recently.

Elliot 5:32

Yeah, yeah, totally. On a completely, totally different topic. Um, here's a thing that I want to get uh both of your thoughts on. Here is John MacArthur, second only to John Calvin, waxing eloquent about mental health. Take a listen.

douchebag 5:47

There's no such thing as PTSD, there's no such thing as O C D, there's no such thing as ADHD. Those those are noble lies. To basically give the excuse to in the end of the day to medicate people. And big pharma's in charge of a lot of that. If you if you understand w take PTSD, for example. What that really is is grief. You are fighting a war, you lost your buddies. You have a certain amount of survival, guilt, because you made it back, they didn't. How do you deal with grief? Grief is a real thing. But grief is part of life. And if you can't navigate grief, you can't live life. But if you clinic clinically define that, you can give them a pill, a series of medications, and they end up in LA homeless on the sidewalk. This is this is in in regard to children, it's the the most deadly thing that's been unleashed on children. Medication. We um we're trying to make clear to parents that behavior is essentially the result of choices that kids make. And if you parent them properly, they'll make right choices. But if you blame it on some something other than their choices, and you identify them as having something they can't do anything about but medicate it. You literally are turning your child into a potential uh well, not only a potential drug addict, but maybe a potential criminal. Because they never learn how to neg navigate life in a socially acceptable way.

Elliot 8:12

The fuck? Yeah. Can you believe that? What so like based on what? Like how does somebody like that open their mouth and feel like they have the expertise to address something that's that like in in such a a counterclinical way, like they're they're just going in the face of so much research. They have like they it it's like they have no idea that there's a whole body of evidence to the contrary. They're just gonna say what they think authoritatively. How does that work?

Randy 8:51

I mean, you got like three hours. I mean, like the I think the psychology is deep, but I mean when you're someone like John MacArthur who's been been given this this place of authority in so many areas, and you've taken this place of authority in so many areas, I think he really does think he's the authority when it comes an authority when it comes to things like mental health or you know, s neuro neurology. I mean, all the things that he talks about here, he talks about a number of things, a pretty wide scope of things, and he's talks with such confidence, he sounds like he really believes himself.

Elliot 9:26

It's like a a spir like spiritual authority. People who imagine they have spiritual authority, like that's that's the thing that transcends all other types of authority, all other types of knowledge.

Randy 9:38

Yeah. I mean he's he's insinuating so many things there. He's insinuating that he knows more about trauma and grief than a veteran, right? He's insinuating that that if you parent your children right, they won't have things like ADHD. If you parent your children right, they won't have things like OCD. If you parent your children right, they won't have anxiety. It just comes down to you trying to steward their choices and show them how to make their right choices for themselves. Those are the kind of ideas that just fly in the face of so much evidence in science and Does he think that there's a pill for PTSD?

Kyle 10:17

Like to your point about just being totally blissfully unaware of the evidence, like he simultaneously knows what the expert consensuses are well enough to confidently reject them, but clearly has no idea what any of them actually entail or include. Uh, and that just isn't it doesn't matter. It it's it's not even lying. So there's a philosopher named Harry Frankfurt recently passed who famously wrote this uh little booklet called On Bullshit, and he makes the case that there's a difference between bullshit and lying, and bullshitting is worse because bullshitters don't care about the truth, the truth is irrelevant, they're totally indifferent to it. Um they use it for their own gain. Propaganda is related. Um, and that's that's what I hear in that, right? Because he knows just enough to know what he wants to reject, and none of the details, because the details are totally immaterial.

Randy 11:08

That's all about big pharma.

Kyle 11:09

Yeah. Um and it's it's really interesting that um when he said that about big pharma, it gives you a little bit of a clue as to what he's going on about. He doesn't care about big pharma, right? He just knows that that's an ideal that other people will latch on to. Um, and so he uses that ideal for his own gain, right? To to make points that are totally inconsistent with it at the end of the day.

Randy 11:32

Which is just kind of a regurgitation of focus on the family, you know, the stuff that many of our parents grew up on and came of age in and raised us in in many ways. This is just a f kind of a a grumpier version of some of that, wouldn't you say?

Elliot 11:50

It it just what it reeks of is the desire for authority. And so, like, a at the end of the day, I don't know he's epitomizing a type that has become so familiar in evangelicalism, and just like there's a whole a whole category of people who it it doesn't really matter what they say, they just want to be authoritative about something. And so while the opinions may change, uh he's gonna say it with confidence and he's gonna expect that people would follow him. And evidence and science, uh, the well-being of the people who might listen to him don't matter. All that's on the table is authority and how much authority he can have over the people who might listen to him.

Randy 12:39

Yeah, and it just so happens that authority in his world equals money and dollars, right? Like that's this is one of the reasons why MacArthur in particular drives me so crazy. It's probably because I'm I'm like many people who are listening. I have, you know, I have loved ones who really esteem John MacArthur and think that he is the end-all be-all when it comes to truth. You know, he's kind of co-opted that word. And I've also been to I have dear friends who live in Argentina and South America, and I can tell you just from experience from conversations with lots of different Argentinian Christians, John MacArthur has kind of co-opted Protestant Christianity within South America. I mean, he has just his Bibles are everywhere, his commentaries are everywhere, his Bible studies are everywhere to such an extent that when I start talking about things that I'm learning, people in Argentina will be like, Oh, did you learn that from John MacArthur? Because that's all they know in many ways, because he's been so effective at marketing his brand in other continents that he's kind of co-opted the whole, the whole arena, the whole world of Protestant Christianity. That's what scares me, is that this stuff is crazy, right? Like this stuff is genuinely destructive, and there are millions and millions of people around the world who are Christ followers who listen to this and think that maybe this is gospel truth. That's the dangerous part of it.

Elliot 14:00

Yeah. I maybe should have guessed that that was gonna wind up being pretty depressing, but somehow it still catches me off guard. So uh let's switch gears and go to the inbox. So we're gonna start doing something a little bit new where if you have questions that you'd like us to answer on the podcast, you can email those as a voice memo to pastorandphilosopher at gmail.com. And we would love to just listen through them and answer any that we can during the show. So email those again, pastorandphilosopher at gmail.com, but we're gonna start with one from Jake. Here we go.

Jake 14:33

Randy, you don't use the term deconstruction anymore. Do you have a term or words that you use to describe that concept now?

Randy 14:46

Two main things. First thing is I think this idea of deconstruction, it's got a s it's got a shelf life for me. And by that I mean we refer to deconstruction as this I've entered a season in which my faith is changing, my theology is being reshaped, the things that I once held close to me I don't anymore. Maybe I've walked away from certain beliefs, certain toxic beliefs, all this stuff. But we kind of refer to it as and and think about it in a seasonal way. And I want to just say, I think that's an unhealthy expectation. I think we should, I I refer more to spiritual evolution than I do to deconstruction because I think that speaks to this reality that our faith is going to always be changing. Our faith is always going to be taking different shapes and it's going to be changing and growing, and maybe sometimes even going backwards and going to places that we can't expect. But I think the one constant that we can expect is that it's going to change and it's going to evolve, it's going to mature. So I want to I use spiritual evolution just as a placeholder for deconstruction because I don't want to assume that this is just a moment or a season of my life where I'm going to change and then everything's going to get solid again. I think that's an unhealthy, unrealistic expectation. The other thing, and this is way more minimal to me, but it's kind of probably subliminally in the back of my mind. I just see way too many Theobros, whether it's on Twitter or in sermons or whatever, slamming this idea of deconstruction. This is kind of like the the Wright's way of saying you can't trust anybody who uses the word deconstruction. And so maybe subliminally in the back of my mind, I've tried to avoid that deconstruction word because I don't want to give them fuel for the fire to say you're just another heretic who's talking about deconstruction. No, no, no. I'm just talking about what is natural to the life of faith. Now for our interview with Bruce Reyes Chow. Well, Bruce Reyes Chow, thank you so much for joining us on a pastor and a philosopher walking to a bar.

Bruce 16:44

It's good to be here. I can't wait.

Randy 16:46

You start out your book with this interaction with Desmond Tutu. Any interaction with Desmond Tutu, we have to ask about. Can you tell us about that interaction, Bruce?

Bruce 16:54

Uh, you know, you're always worried. I've I've met two of my kind of social justice heroes in in my life. Um, I met John Lewis. So uh in in the Presbyterian Church USA, I held a position uh that many thought I was too young to hold when I held it. I was 39 years old and was the highest elected office in our in the PCUSA. And so I they had to let me go to meetings like because of a denominational thing. So the office, the moderator's office, had to go. So I got to go sit in these places. Some of them were not fun. I got to go to a couple that I got to go to Barack Obama's inauguration on behalf of the denomination. But I got to sit down for lunch with four people with John Lewis. And I had just been reading his book, and you're always worried about meeting your heroes and them. I I was scared to death that John Lewis is gonna be just a big jerk. Well, he's not. I mean, he's I saw him one time in an airplane, he was crammed into a middle seat in economy. You know, John Lewis is this wide dude eating his like his fries, and everybody's like, Mr. Lewis, Congress Lewis, come take our seat. So that's one. And then the second, you know, I walk into a room, it was at the inauguration, and I had a uh a place at the Congressional Black Caucus worship service before the inauguration of Barack Obama. And so I go in and I just wander in there, and it I mean, this place is filled with obvious dignitaries by what they're wearing. Presbyterians, we tend to not do all the, we don't do all the vestments and everything. I had a black robe, one stole, like I mean you were in a robe.

Randy 18:28

That's that's something. Right.

Bruce 18:30

For some that's getting dressed up. I haven't I only wear a robe now for weddings and funerals at this point. But yeah, so I go in there and they just start lining us up. I, you know, it's pretty intimidating because I recognize a lot of these folks because everyone wanted to be there, especially in kind of a social justice, racial, ethnic kind of world. That's the service to be at. And they line me up, and I happen to be standing next to Archbishop Desmond Chutu in his full everything. And he was delightful in the most powerful way you could imagine. He just was like, hey, how's it going? I'm like, I'm fine. Like it was just this weird, but exactly kind of like talking the book. He just approached me like a regular human being. I mean, it was just exactly how you would hope somebody that you've read and you've listened to and you've quoted would would not have been fooled themselves at that point. And you know, you hope that that's true, and it was. And he what during the service was simply excited about where the country had been headed. He just kept repeating, you know, every five minutes, the United States has a black president, and he just laughed and he'd talk a little more. Like there was nothing of theological substance to that sermon that I remember, but it was just this pure joy that and then he started dancing with Mary Mary, and it was I I can't, you know, it's one of the top kind of experiences that I've ever had. And he was everything you would hope he would be, which is what we can all hope we we all are when we meet people, is that uh we're who they hoped and thought we would be.

Randy 20:09

So I think you should start every book with your encounter with Desmond Tutu. I wouldn't fault you at all, Bruce.

Bruce 20:15

It's one time when I was at Desmond Tutu.

Randy 20:17

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Starting with the epilogue, because you actually you fed this craze, which I don't understand, of saying, like, just in case you're one of those people that reads the epilogue first, here I'm gonna give the book away. So in the epilogue, you say that this book is your understanding of Christianity. It's kind of a summary of your faith montage. Can you explain that to our listeners?

Bruce 20:36

Yeah, so uh as as folks read it, I hope what they get is that I don't say here is the way. I think the definitive definitive article is one of the most dangerous things that we have when we discuss faith and life is that this is the way, this is the belief, this is you know the only way. And what I wanted to offer was a version that is pretty broad, but one that I was taught, grew up with. And uh for many kind of, you know, however you want to describe mainline progressive, I don't even know how you describe it, but that there's this, it's a very general theological space that I think has been, has lost its folks have lost an ability to articulate it, even know it. And so this is the version that I've come out with uh that has been informed by family, friends, community, my own lived experience, uh, that I think will hopefully what I'm hoping it is inspires other people to begin to explore it on different terms based on what we do believe and not what we don't believe into it. Um I think one other part is I was a church planter for you know 15 years, progressive, Presbyterian, urban, multi ethnic, young, all those things that everybody wants to be. And we uh were able to do it. And what I think is I found was trying to explain Christianity to those who really had no church experience. Like they weren't de churched, post church, they were like really West Coast, nothing. Um, I always I always felt like we were missing the thing, that book, that something that folks could just start with and kind of prompt them to begin to think. And that's part of the impetus for me writing this montage and then writing this book.

Randy 22:12

So the book is called Everything Good About God is True. Can you explain the title of the book and the relationship between Christianity and goodness?

Bruce 22:21

Yeah. So I uh I write a lot, I can never quote myself the right way. I don't um, but I I I talk a little bit about this idea that goodness is completely subjective, right? I mean, what is good to one person might be bad to another. I mean, we we know in our traditions, you know, depending on what Christian tradition you come out of, some people do some things that they think is perfectly good in the eyes of God, and others of us are like, well, that is certainly could not be. And so I think that's one acknowledgement. Um, but the bold claim is really that there is, you know, ultimately God is good, and we are trying to figure out how our lives converge and kind of get closest to that and align with that, acknowledging that we're never actually knowing exactly what God's goodness is. And whereas I think there have been some traditions where that not knowing is seen as a weakness or a way to not land anywhere. I think it's incredibly liberating, though, that I have agency, we have agency to kind of come alongside of trying to figure out who God hopes us to be, and that ultimately is good. And we're trying to just figure out what that means. And so I also, there is a nod to that that's that I would also say that um people say, well, not the all the bad things that God does. And I just feel like that gets informed by a theology that has used God as a weapon, has weaponized God, has used God as a fear tactic, as you know, there's all the the things that happen to you that are bad if God is unhappy with you. And I just wanted to almost reject that notion in the idea that no, God is actually good, and all that other stuff is a product of a theological space that is using God as a as a weapon and again is using God as as fear instead of awe.

Randy 24:06

And the book comes across very much in that you know, hopeful, positive goodness direction. But what would you say to people who say who would say maybe that that idea is very Pollyanna-ish, and it's maybe rooted in our experience? And who are you to say what what and who God is?

Bruce 24:23

Sure. Well, yeah, who am I to say? I mean, I think I have a line in this there is this is a completely arrogant and audacious task to take. I mean, who who dares to say here's a version of faith? But I I think the nuance for me is it is a version, like it is a thing. I also um I mean, at the core, Christianity is incredibly foolish. I mean, the idea, and you know, if the other spoiler is right, I'm I'm very, I would say slightly progressive-ish through most of it, but I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. And so, like that for many people is like, well, we didn't see that coming. And like, why, you know, a more traditional progressive would explain that away. There'd be a way to fear like it didn't really have to happen, but I believed it. Like in the intention of it happening, like, but I'm like, you know what? I think things are so I didn't ask if I can swear on this podcast. Things are just so terrible. Okay, okay. Things are so shitty in the world, right? That I've got to believe in this amazing, unimaginable, almost, and we want to call it Pollyannish. I mean, I don't, incredibly hopeful idea that things could change. And I I think that if I didn't believe that, then I am giving into what I would say are the ways of the world that are just about individual, you know, accumulation of wealth and one over the other and all those things. So yeah, folks are certainly going to say that. I also know that uh one of the things about my lived experience is there are some folks who aren't ready, and that's not like a negative, you're growing into this spot, but some folks are still have been so harmed by the church that there's a different this book is not can't occupy a space for them yet. And it might at some point or it might not, or it may come alongside. When they asked me to do this, we we agreed that this was not going to be a book on deconstruction. Like that is, I think everybody goes through it, every tradition, whatever you are on the spectrum, it has to do that in some form. But I don't come out of that like post-evangelical conservative deconstruction space. That's was not my experience. So I can't write to that and I don't. And so what I I do know that some who come out of it may feel like it's too big of a jump at this point. Like, um, and so again, it's not as in terms of those of levels or progression, but I do know that some may read it and be like, yeah, but I I can't get to this space yet, or I just don't have it in me, or whatever. Um, so I fully acknowledge that for me, it's a version, it's not the and I hope that that continues to come come across. Yeah. And I I don't mind being just foolish about these things. If we weren't, we would look at hap what's happening in the world. If we believe that things couldn't change, then why are we doing what we're doing?

Randy 27:05

Yep. And for what it's worth, that was a hypothetical question because I don't think there's anything Pollyanish about trying to live into and embody a way of goodness that's actually takes a lot more guts and intentionality than being a grumpy jerk, yeah.

Kyle 27:19

Yeah. So Randy mentioned a faith montage earlier, which is kind of a motif in the book, and that's what the thing at the end is called. Um, so can you tell our listeners what that is and why did you frame your work around it?

Bruce 27:32

Because I'm a Gen Xer of the 80s when every movie had a had a montage of some kind. A fa a montage, right? You can it can stand parts can stand alone and they tell a story, but it also moves a story along. And so I like that idea about there is a a path, but you could also grab parts of it and they would stand on on their own. What I'm seeing people already do is use parts of this for their worship, prayer experiences for their communities. They're pulling parts out, creating liturgy, um, those kind of things. So it's it's so that was why I did it that way, was to, and why I called it that was to just move, move all the way. That's probably one of the only things that I'm like, I want to keep that. I it might have been easier if we went with the faith statement or something that was a little bit more known, but I was like, nah, I like the vibe, it feels me. Uh so that's kind of why why I went with that.

Kyle 28:23

And it felt much more artistic than any statement of faith I've ever read. Certainly poetic. Yeah, even musical sometimes, yeah. So one line in it stood out to me that I wanted to ask you about, and it reminded me of something that Desmond Tutu himself might have said. Um, and you say, this is on page 184, you cannot be healed if I am still hurting. I cannot know wholeness if you are still in agony. Can you explain what that means to you?

Bruce 28:46

Yeah. Um, I mean, so the big general concept, right, is the the idea that of the body of Christ and you know, one is suffering, uh, the rest of the body suffers if one rejoices, the rest of the body rejoices. But this in particular, if I were to have expanded more, you know, I think a great way to look at this was during pandemic. That image for me was so alive. You know, when when people got into their camps around COVID, how easily we turned on each other and started to begin to think that we were no longer connected to each other. Um, I remember seeing from you know more progressive East sides, well, if you don't want to get vaccinated, you can just we'll just put them on an island and let them all die. And, you know, then the other side was just like, well, they're putting all this stuff in their bodies, let them all die. Right. I mean, and I as one who actually was hospitalized, I was vaccinated, hospitalized, um, almost on a ventilator, long COVID, um, and so heard all the things from all the sides. I and lost uh my grandmother too um in the midst of it. I would I carry this tension between both being sad and angry about humanity, how easily we could rejoice in the pain of another and not embrace the idea that if these folks are hurting, we are too. If you know when my grandmother died, all I could think about was every time somebody died who was not vaccinated and we mocked that person as if it was their own fault, we were selling their family who had is experiencing grief and pain and sorrow, like that that doesn't like we're just dismissing that. And I just feel like if we get to the point where we can no longer have empathy towards somebody who we disagree with politically, theologically, ideologically, then we have allowed a system of division to win. And my theology tells me that does not have the last word. And so that idea that we all have to seek healing for one another, we all have to do the work, cross some boundaries to acknowledge that others are hurt even when we don't agree with them and we can't just dismiss them, you know. And I hope people do the same for me, even though I know they may not. So I just always lived with this idea that until we're all whole, we're none of us is is. And so and that's that's not a new concept, but it I think it became very real for me during COVID and in another time, even now during what's happening uh in Palestine and Israel right now. Same kind of thing, how division and systems have removed empathy from one another and ability to understand each other as as one human kind of body. So yeah, there you go.

Kyle 31:29

Yeah, at the beginning of the book, you say something that really coheres with what you were just describing. You say, I fear that here in the United States we're losing our collective imagination for the common good. And I've experienced that for sure. I've seen it a lot, all a lot of the same stuff you were just describing. How can we how can we rebuild an imagination like that?

Bruce 31:48

You know, I I kinda I kind of do think we we have to commit that we want to do it. I mean, I think that individually we have to decide that we believe there is one to be had again, um, or it's there and we just are seeking it. And we have to, you know, I think this idea that we can disagree with someone and not completely dehumanize them, we have to be able to hold that space. And so it's so hard to hold that space. I mean, I I and I I was just in in Palestine and heard a family of hostages, right? We were there as a as an unapologetically pro-Palestinian ceasefire community meeting with Palestinian Christians and and hearing their story about what's going on in the West Bank in Gaza. And I remember sitting in the room hearing uh a narrative of what happened that I completely disagreed with and felt like this is not true. And I found myself really discouraged and disappointed in myself because I was having a hard time having empathy and compassion for a father who was talking about his son being held hostage in the midst of this conflict. And that because that's not me. Like I tend to have empathy for everyone. I mean, that just tends to be something I choose to try to do. And I really found myself like not feeling it and feeling like the system of division and manipulation had won that night for me. And it was a really an important part for me because I had to be like, oh, so my my disagreement with who they were uh ideologically in some ways overcame my ability to see them with empathy. And so I think we all have to acknowledge that we have capacity to not have empathy for somebody when I think we would say, and hypothetical, we would. And so now how do we wake up every day to say, no, no, no, we're we're going to. When I hear about deaths of people, it's easy for me to have empathy for people that I agree with. But I mean, those who I don't, I need to have the same amount. Otherwise, that that's the imagination I think we have to challenge ourselves to have. And I think the more we do that, I do believe there's some contagiousness about it. It becomes habitual. Um, the more those of us who are in public squares can do that, the more people see it. Um, and the more that I think folks can see that it is not weakness, in fact, it's strength and there's power in it. Um, and that's the core of like civil disobedience. There's a lot of things that are built on that.

Kyle 34:27

Yeah, thanks for sharing that. That that was a really powerful story. I love framing it as imagination specifically, because it implies several things. It implies to me that it might be contrary to belief at the moment, it might be contrary to your felt experience at the moment. I've experienced something similar to what you described at various points, and for me, it's all almost always accompanied by a s a feeling of certainty. Like I like I've I've seen through this of a sense of clarity. This is understood, I know it, they don't. And it's easy to forget that there's more value to a person than what they know. Because I might be totally right about that. Right. They have missed it, and I maybe I can even like prove it in a certain sense, in a way that I know they couldn't refute. Nonetheless, there's a value to them that I'm missing when I jump to that certainty point. And it's so easy in a in a quick decision, especially if the decision is distant, it's a political decision or an economic decision where I don't have their face in front of me. I can I can make the decision quickly off of that feeling of clarity and forget the imaginative side, which I have to practice. And so I really, I really like framing it in that way.

Bruce 35:34

Well, and I think even the even the distance, like that's where it like the reason I was shocked so much at my reaction to this interaction with with this father was that I was right there. So it should have been easy. Right. Because I work really hard online to embody that imagination. Like that's a discipline that I had because it is so easy not to. And I almost take for granted that if I was in front of somebody, I would always do it. Right. And so part of what I try to do on my online interaction is one, if somebody's just totally nasty and they don't want to do anything or a troll or whatever, I just don't interact. But if somebody really just disagrees with me but isn't kind of attacking, I will interact with somebody and acknowledge. Like, I will not say, you know, my acknowledgement is that you're right or my silence is your right, but I'm not going to tear you down simply because you have an opposite opinion of mine. And I've always had that discipline in the distance. It's that it is the almost the face-to-face thing. Like, what are we actually going to do when we're confronted right up with our enemy? Right. I mean, what does that actually look like? And that part, that's what really shook me is huh, this thing that I actually thought I had all done really wasn't. Um Yeah.

Kyle 36:51

And then if you believe as I do, that that's where Christian ethics begins with the confrontation of the enemy, that that enemy love is really kind of the first step in Christian ethics, then you start to wonder, as I do, am I actually a Christian? Yes. Yeah.

Randy 37:07

You write a large month about the church in the book. Your experiences of the church, leading a church. What is the church to you? What you think it should be? Why do you seem committed to the church? You obviously, the church in America today, a large part of it has lost its minds a little bit, it feels like. You know, I know that I'm taking this really charitable, wonderful conversation that you and Kyle were having, and I'm just dragging us back down to the muck. But it's true. In light of what the church is in America today, why do you continue to have this kind of beautiful vision of the church? Why are you excited about being the church?

Bruce 37:42

Yeah, I mean, so I so you know, I'll I'll never talk about well, the church is gonna go back to what it was. Like, I don't, I'm not a heyday, like your church should we're we're all gonna grow again and and the percentages and all that. I I that's not part of it. I again, and and my experience of the church has been pretty positive. I mean, none of them are perfect, obviously, but mine like I went to a church, small little church in Stockton, California. It was born out of the farm worker strikes in the Central Valley. It was multi-ethnic because it was in the poor part of Stockton where all the immigrants would come first and then they move out. And so my home church was community-centered, uh, multi-ethnic. We had same-gender couples there, economic disparity, like all the things that progressive spaces want to have. And so I didn't realize I went to progressive church until I left that church and went somewhere else. And they're like, Oh, you go to that progressive church. I'm like, well, it's just church to me. And so this was just church. And part of it was it's not based on what it we're not. It's based on here's the most beautiful way and complex way we can embody what it means to be community today. And that's what I think church is.

Kyle 38:49

Let's talk about the subtitle, Choosing Faith. Um, a few minutes ago, you used a phrase that comes up a lot in the book, which is some version of I choose to be X or I choose to believe Y. Um, so explain for our listeners what you think the role of choice is in faith and belief.

Bruce 39:06

Yeah. Well, because I clearly am not uh somebody that says there is only one way to connect with God, that for me, Jesus is the way, and and I'm perfectly comfortable living with the tension of that, and that it is a choice for me. And so I actually think that that one of the dangers of any tradition culture is that there is an assumed progression, passing down of anything. And without agency and choice, it doesn't really take root. And so I actually think that we have to help people decide, oh, is this something I choose to believe or not? And then is there room for that belief? Because in some traditions, right, if you give choice, somebody may choose something that is against that belief, and you're like, well, then you're no longer within these walls that we've constructed that we acknowledge is true belief. And I'm more like, no, actually, there is room for broad belief. Now, behavior is different, but there's room for broad belief. I wouldn't even say, you know, I generally only pastor churches that are LGBTQA affirming and celebrating, but there's room for somebody in that community to believe that that is not okay. Now, is behavior all behavior? No. But I'm gonna be fully supported as somebody who believes that maybe we're not that's not the right space for them to be in faith and to make that choice. I think that is freeing in other traditions. If they've decided, no, we're just this and you choose something out of it, then that you're you're no longer within those bounds. And I think the the faith that I want to talk about says no, the expansiveness of God is actually really affirming and good. And so it's our responsibility, though, at some point along the line, to make these choices about what we do believe so we can learn how to articulate, we know what questions to ask, we know how to challenge each other so that we can continue to grow in that belief.

Kyle 40:59

Yeah, I'm trying to think back to when I was a kid growing up in a what I didn't know at the time, but was a liberal denomination and kind of mainline, uh, but also rural Kentucky, so nobody's really truly liberal. Um so and like when at what point I took ownership of it. And I don't I don't remember because that's that's what I hear you saying. At certain point, it's it's not enough to just be in the space around people who have authentically experienced it, it has to become yours in some way. Um, and it seems like isn't that just the process of catechesis? Like, isn't that what the Catholics have been trying to perfect forever? Like we give this to the kids as clearly as we can, uh, and then they make the choice whether it's theirs or not. Um, but doesn't it have to have some kind of intellectual component to it? Because like we talk a lot on our show about, you know, we we kind of orbit this question in various ways pretty often, um, and talking about how when many, many things that are controversial in faith, you reach a point of kind of evidential equilibrium, and it then becomes reasonable in a kind of Jamesian sense to make a choice. But it's not just choosing off of nothing, right? There's an entire step before that that involves serious investigation that makes it reasonable to make a choice. And if you skip that step, if you skip the catechesis, just making a choice is irresponsible. It's foolish. Um, and so where are you in in relation to that that's why this book, right?

Bruce 42:26

In many ways, what I but what what has happened in many denominations, especially small or small churches, some large churches still do confirmation, right? Fifth grade, sixth grade, you do confirmation class, right? Whatever grade they do it. And I have friends that are serving churches and they're, you know, they still have 10, 20, 30 kids because they're in these big settings. In our smaller settings now, those are disappearing. Like confirmation classes and that that that rite of passage, I think we've lost a lot of that in a variety of ways, but that rite of passage that is meaningful as opposed to just kind of wrote, you know, and I think that that part we lost. And in some ways, what is happening already is there are long time church people who are reading this book, and I think it's almost like they have to have a brown paper bag around it because it's like, oh, I don't know, I don't actually know. And you know, when you know somebody for a year and you don't know their name, at some point you can't ask them their name anymore. I think there are a lot of things about faith that we have folks that have been in our church for a decade and they've been hearing this thing, but I bet you have asked them, well, what is confession written? Has anybody ever said why we do it? And they're, I mean, they might maybe figure it out, but like, but there's anything to hold on to so that you can push back on it or to to wrestle with it. And I think that's what this I hope what is happening is that this book becomes a little bit of that kind of confirmation catechism space.

Randy 43:54

At what point in reading this book I realized that you value community and your value of community as a thread that keeps Weaving its way through your faith journey and understanding of faith. You talk about interpreting scripture in community and experiencing the fullness of the Christian faith only in community. You talk about discerning God's will in community. Can you tell us why you think Christianity is a faith best lived in community?

Bruce 44:14

Community for me, though, is my the biggest protection from myself in many ways. It's the buffer that allows me to trust those who have come before me and what they've laid out and done, both in both positive ways and to watch out for what has happened in the past, as well as to make sure what I'm thinking and doing and kind of visioning has some clarity. As well as in my tradition, you know, the Presbyterians, we don't have any what bishops or anybody with any one individual with any power in the way that we we believe in corporate bishops, which means committee work, which means long meetings of a lot of people talking and everybody gets a voice. It's hugely frustrating at times. Um, but I choose it because you know, even that voice that we know exactly what they're gonna say every time, and everybody kind of goes, oh, so-and-so's gonna talk again. Something can come out of that. And so I I need to be in those spaces because if I just surround myself completely with people that only agree with me about everything, I lose out on these other ways to expand how people who are adjacent to me, how they are expanding my vision of the world. Yeah, and I think that is really important and to have an openness to the possibility that there might be more beyond there might the imagination gets expanded through the the words and actions and lives of others.

Randy 45:42

In chapter eight, you titled that chapter storied, and you refer to the Bible, and I'm quoting you here from I think this is from your faith montage, it's the poetic little piece. And you say the Bible is not an indifferent collection, but an anthology of human experience. What do you mean by that? What's what's your relationship with the Bible? How do you see the Bible, Bruce?

Bruce 46:02

Yeah, so I uh so I'm not a literalist, you know. I I praise the Lord. I did go to seminary, not that everything is around that, but I did study Hebrew and Greek. And when you and I don't know either of them anymore, uh, I know Ruwa. There you go. There's my uh Hebrew, I still know. Um, but one of the things I think the only reason to do it is to realize that translations are crap. Like it's just like no matter what you read, somebody has done something to it on purpose or an on accident. And so to be a literalist makes no intellectual sense for me. Like we we have some you know original text at the seminary, which I went to San Francisco Theological Seminary, and they let you know the one of the field trips is to go up and see this original text, and you see they put side by side one version and the next one, and how the scribe just kind of kept going and just skipped a line and just kept going. Like, so this is the whole chunk missing, because I mean, if any of us was trying to, you know, just keep going. And so that was that was for me. But that doesn't mean that I don't believe that there is inherent truth in scripture, and so holding that tension between being literal and you know, being inerrant in terms of there is some truth, there's God's truth is held in scripture. I'm perfectly comfortable holding that tension. Not a literalist, but truth, God's truth is spoken to us through scripture. And so there is there is intention in all of it, even the intention when we have to struggle with scripture just to say, yeah, that's wrong. And here's why we think that's wrong. And I am perfectly fine with also saying that. Like just, and this should not have been included because what humans have done to this with this particular part of scripture, you can argue that we should know better, but here's you know how what humanity humanity has done with this, and you know, um it's been a uh weaponizing the Bible and all those kind of things. So I am I I love holding the whole thing as one true story of who God intends and the story of of humanity's relationship with God. Um, but I'm not a literalist, and so perfectly willing to kind of keep reimagining what's happening, struggling with it all the time. Um, I uh love taking on difficult texts, even when it's like, I don't know what I'm doing with this one, but let's at least talk about what these could possibly mean for us today. Even as like, this is just this is wrong. Maybe it fit in this particular context of history or time, but we don't apply it in the same way today. Like we're just not going to.

Randy 48:31

So, in staying in that line of thought in chapter 11, you say that Jesus the Christ is our central and unique connection to the divine. Many would people would say the Bible is our central and unique connection to the divine. Explain the difference for us, Brees.

Bruce 48:45

Why would I why would it do that? Well, because I think uh we worship the Bible, generally speaking, too much when we know that the canon, um, well, one, you know, we look at the Hebrew text and who carries that as their straigner text, and then we look at the New Testament, and then we look at what was not included in what we now call the New Testament that possibly could have been, and so that there are texts outside of it, the Gospel of Mary, the Didic, there's other ones that I think give us um insight into tradition and faith that also should I think could be included, and so which is another bold thing to say that I think there should be other books included in the New Testament. So I I I don't worship scripture as much as some might. I don't devalue it and believe that I still believe God speaks through it, but I actually think that in that path, that choice to follow Jesus, the one the Christ, that is our unique expression as a unique expression to connecting to God, along with other traditions that that are out in the world. This is the one that I am informed by. This is what I choose. And if you're interested in this version and this pathway of finding more about it, then this is a story that I'm telling about what that could look like.

Kyle 50:00

How do you interpret John 14 6?

Bruce 50:03

Uh John 14.6 is what again?

Kyle 50:05

I am the way, the truth. Okay, good. Thank you.

Randy 50:09

This is a question that I've never heard Kyle ask, and I'm all right.

Kyle 50:12

This is a very unusual question for me. Listeners will know. I just when I'm when I'm confronted with someone who is a little bit further in the direction than I am, I take up the antagonistic role. All right, here we go.

Bruce 50:25

Is there oppositional behavior going on right now?

Kyle 50:28

Yeah, probably. It's involuntary.

Bruce 50:31

Uh, you know, thousand people judge Jesus when the sign comes up.

Kyle 50:34

Yeah.

Bruce 50:35

Uh so I I preach on this all the time because I do think that is is the choice that I've made for me. I mean, I can perfectly say that this is the the only way for me to God, and it is not for everyone. And I don't I have no problem saying that. And and that even though scripture, because I don't worship scripture as a literal document that says this is a rule book that we follow, I don't look at it as like even when you know, if you want to say love one another, I'm like, well, that's complex too. Like, what does that mean? What does bless someone mean? So I'm consistent when I look at scripture. I'm not a literalist about anything. And so in that regard, too, I'm perfectly saying that's a choice I've made. Yeah, this is the only way. Like I've explored other things. I've come back to my Christian faith, I've come back to being Presbyterian again, God knows why. I keep coming back to being Presbyterian. I know it feeds me, but I do. I choose that this is the way for me. And again, that definitive article, the, is mine only, but is a way, a possibility for others. So there you go.

Kyle 51:39

Gotcha. All right.

Randy 51:40

Antagonist Kyle, satisfied?

Kyle 51:43

No, of course I'm not satisfied. No, but I appreciate the response, and it would take us too far afield to dig further. Yeah, yeah.

Randy 51:50

You're you're digging up the the Kyle who loved apologetics, who I don't want to. I'm gonna leave buried. Yeah. Can you explain your experience and understanding of the Eucharist and how we might be formed as churches and communities and even individuals by the table of Christ?

Bruce 52:07

Yeah. Oh, I love communion. I just um I think that's one of the huge misses for many, many churches is our devaluing of that ritual. I just think that we have we've turned it into uh a habit and and not in a good way. I just it's something we're supposed to do in in in many traditions, it's either quarterly or monthly or whatever.

Randy 52:29

Yes.

Bruce 52:30

It's one of those things that when you get to the right point, you actually don't have to explain it very much. You just have to say a few words that give people context. That it is a moment in our day, in our week, where we are reminded, not that we leave all of who we are and then come to the table as some kind of generic human. Yes, but it's the one place that we can bring everything and trust that we can hold it there.

Randy 52:55

Yes.

Bruce 52:56

And I think there are very few places where we are committed to do that. And so I have always felt that communion every Sunday was a way to feed this really uh difficult journey that we are choosing to take throughout the week. And that's why, you know, the church habit piece, again, there's all debate about whether church has to happen in structurally the way it does, but I do think there's regular gathering of the people is really important. And communion for me is a physical reminder of kind of what I was sharing before about that body that gives us this weird imagination of hope that if we can hold it in this space for this, you know, 10 minutes, we could do it longer. We could do it in other places, and we're reminded that it is possible.

Randy 53:45

That's good.

Bruce 53:45

So I have always I raised my kids when my kids grew up in the church that I started. It's the only church they ever knew, pretty positive experience. Uh, when we gave them the choice about whether they were going to church or not, uh, you know, they still went on occasion, more than like, oh good, I don't have to go anymore. And and their thing though, for church's only church is that there's communion every Sunday. Now they could be a little rigid about it, like any anybody can be. Uh, but when we were searching for communions, after I left the congregation I was serving, we let the kids choose where we would end up. So whether they were gonna go all the time or not, they were probably in middle school and elementary school. So we visited all these churches in our area, and uh, this little small church we went to had communion every Sunday, and then after the second Sunday, they said, This is where we're going. And that was the main reason is that my elementary middle school kids missed that ritual. And I think that church that we were at, they still are at actually, made that ritual real. So it wasn't habitual, it wasn't like you look forward to it, it was part of just the rhythm. Uh, and I just feel like that provides so much healing and bonding in in congregational communal life. Uh, and it has fed me. And um anywhere I go, uh, I I hope that it's done in a way that's meaningful and more often, but at least meaningfully, because we've lost a lot of the power of it, like we have with a lot of right, rites and rituals in our churches, but that in particular we have.

Randy 55:17

Last question pertaining directly to the book in chapter 17, the chapter on humility. Yes. You paint a picture of what I read as the possibility of an entire faith tradition becoming so prideful and centered in their own story that we can easily move into a colonial mindset. Yep. And that's you, I feel like you explained the rub that I have against global missions in the Western Church the way we've done in the last probably 50 years. Can you talk about this how communal pride leads to colonialism?

Bruce 55:46

Yeah.

Randy 55:47

Help us with that.

Bruce 55:48

Well, I mean, it's it's not difficult to see, right? You I mean, it's almost like it's easy. I just explained it, but yeah, I mean, it uh it is it is one of those things, right, that we have seen one, we think again, this idea that there is one version of what Christianity looks like. And so we have taken that for generations, some maybe hidden a little bit better into other communities and cultures and said that you, in order for you to be Christian, this is exactly what it looks like. A good example would be if you go to a lot of ethnic-based Christian churches, they often look more conservative and more traditional than other white congregations. Because what happened, right? We go in the 50s, we go to the Philippines and we say, this is what mainline progressive or mainline Christianity looks like. And then all of us in the US are like our worship styles, our stuff, we're all moving and changing. And then those folks come to the US and immigrate, and that they create exactly what they knew in the 50s and 60s from that version, and that happens here in the US. And so you kind of even see how people will look at those, like, well, they're so conservative, they're so traditional. And I'm like, Well, that's what we were selling and as the way to be church. And so now we're gonna switch them up and say, well, now you're wrong. And so, even that for me is like a reminder that there isn't one way. Things move, they shift. And so, even you know, our denomination, we are cutting back on what we now call mission coworkers, or we used to call missionaries, and we've shifted uh our way of expressing our faith in other countries, for instance. So uh I happen to be connected with the United Church of Christ in the Philippines, uh, which is our partner that the PCUSA, the more radical Christian manifestation in the Philippines. And even them, I remember when the switch happened where we said to them, We we have people that have skill sets in the US that want to serve globally. What do you need? Like, what would actually be helpful from us? And they didn't believe us. Like these are even folks who would probably be telling us, just don't send us people that you think we need. So we actually said, No, what do you what do you actually we we mean it this time? We're not gonna send anybody unless it's something you actually need and can be useful in that we actually give there's some reason why we would send somebody. Yes, I think that's a shift that is beginning to happen. Otherwise, we come over and we decide what you need, and we we already assume what you need and we have the answer to it, and we've just seen that play out over and over again. It doesn't mean that having those connections is no longer important. Yes. I mean, I think that's important, right? I mean, but going with a different perspective and lens is is what we need.

Randy 58:28

Tell us today what Bruce Reyes Chow thinks is the key to making Christianity good again in America.

Bruce 58:34

Show up. I mean, again, I'm not I'm not down for trying to take anybody else down. Like I'm not going after people. There are some people that are really good at that, like going after conservative evangelicals and you know that that kind of thing. Um, you know, I'm not looking to go on Fox and convert people and those kind of things. Um, but I will show up in places that folks don't expect Christians to be. So I'm at a lot of actions and rallies right now during the uh ceasefire things, and I'm part of the Interfaith Movement for Human Integrity, which is a interfaith group that uh works on incarceration and decarceration and immigration issues. And so doing visible, profound public action that begins to change the visible narrative of what faith and Christianity looks like, I think is really important. And doing the strategic work that gets that in front of people in a way that, you know, again, we just felt like, well, we're pretty good. So folks will just find us. They'll just show up. It's just not true. And so, how are we being strategic without being uh irresponsible or manipulative to get our voices uh more to the forefront so that people see that there is a different way of being, so that when people talk about the church or the conservative church, that they are putting those adjectives, you know, conservative evangelical church versus saying like so that they're doing a little more work, that there's some division. And so our voice is stronger, so we're forcing ourselves into the conversation. So show up, just be in the places and be public about faith in a way that makes sense for whoever you are.

Randy 1:00:10

Yeah, perfect. The book is Everything Good About God is True, Bruce Reyes Child. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for writing this book.

Bruce 1:00:17

All right. Well, thank you for having me. This is fun.

Elliot 1:00:23

That's it for the show. Thanks so much for listening.

Kyle 1:00:26

So, one of the things that we do that you may or may not be aware of is that the top level at our Patreon is called the Pappy Level. We've talked about this on a couple episodes before. And it's for the super dedicated diehard listeners who want to be in a book study with us once a month.

Randy 1:00:41

Pappy is papy.

Kyle 1:00:42

Pappy as papy. It's the it's the best.

Randy 1:00:44

It's the creme de la creme.

Kyle 1:00:45

It really is. And so we're gonna start shouting out some people maybe we've shouted out before, but they are now members of the Pappy tier, uh, and we're just grateful enough to them to mention them again. So, Nick and Emily Matthews, even though you never come to our book studies, we love you. You can? Alright, sorry, I ruined it then. I think we can.

Randy 1:01:05

And if you would like to join us in that book club, it's a monthly book club, it's a gr just great conversation, it's rich time. Sign up on our Patreon page. That's patreon.comslash uh pastorandaphilosopher. We'll see you next time.