How the New Apostolic Reformation is Reshaping Politics with Stephanie McCrummen

The New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) is reshaping the intersection of faith and politics in America. But what exactly is it? In this episode of Faithful Politics, award-winning journalist Stephanie McCrummen joins hosts Will Wright and Josh Burtram to discuss her recent Atlantic article on the NAR and its growing political influence.

They explore the movement’s theological roots, its dominionist ideology, and its alignment with figures like Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Stephanie shares her firsthand reporting from prayer meetings and church gatherings where believers view political victories as spiritual warfare. The conversation also covers the Seven Mountains Mandate, the role of apostles and prophets in modern Christian nationalism, and the broader implications for democracy and religious pluralism.

Join us as we unpack this powerful movement and its potential impact on policies, education, and the future of American governance.

Guest Bio:

Stephanie McCrummen is an award-winning journalist known for her in-depth reporting on the intersection of religion and politics. Her work has covered the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, Christian nationalism, and radical religious movements in the U.S. She is a contributing writer for The Atlantic and formerly worked at The Washington Post.

Resources & Links:

• Stephanie McCrummen’s Articles in The Atlantic: THE ARMY OF GOD COMES OUT OF THE SHADOWS: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2025/02/new-apostolic-reformation-christian-movement-trump/681092/ 
• The Power Worshippers by Katherine Stewart: https://a.co/d/5MinU5n
• Shadow Network by Anne Nelson: https://a.co/d/aFLPI0v
• Paul Djupe’s Research on Christian Nationalism: https://religioninpublic.blog/20

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching on our YouTube channel, we're really glad to have you here. I'm your political host, Wright, and I'm joined by my trusty sidekick, as always, your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bircham. How's it going, Josh? Doing great. Thanks, Will. And with us today, have with us Stephanie McCrumman. She is an award-winning journalist known for her in-depth reporting on the intersection of religion and politics. Her work has covered the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, which is where we're going to be spending most of our time today, along with Christian nationalism and the influence of other radical religious movements in American political life. And we are just so glad to have you here on our show, Stephanie. So thanks for joining us today. Thanks for having me. wrote an article in the Atlantic. Dang it. Sorry. Brain fart. You wrote an article in the Atlantic that's been getting in a lot of traction. So I'd love for you, I don't want to ruin it. So I'd love for you just to kind of give us the big touch point of what the article is and we'll dig into some of the more details as we go along. Well, I think that the article you're referring to came out in February. I'd written a few stories on the New Apostolic Reformation, this movement, prior to writing this story. in this one, in the ones in the past, I delved into a church, I had written about a follower of this movement. But for this story, I was really hoping to just sort of make an attempt to say, what is this thing? And where did it come from? And what are the people in this movement trying to achieve? So the story really was, guess, some of the reporting was just in the aftermath of the election where I went to a place called Gateway House of Prayer in Pennsylvania. And this is, as I say in the story, it was not quite a church. It was more like... a kind of war room, if you will. This is a place where people gather, according to them, 24 hours a day, seven days a week for the last, I forget, it's like 15 years or something. They've been praying continuously for what they want, which is to bring about this kingdom of God. And when I was there right after the election, they were sort of in a celebratory mood because because they believed that to them, Trump's victory was something that they had not been praying, I mean, they'd been praying for, but not just in a wishful way. To followers of this movement, they really think that their prayer is literally doing something, literally bringing something about. And in this place, they pray for what... Some of your listeners may already be familiar with the Seven Mountains mandate. The Seven Mountains being seven spheres of society that followers in this movement want to sort of take dominion over these different sectors of society. So family, education, government being a huge one and media and so forth. So this particular group, their job every week is to pray for God's dominion over the government. And so on this night, felt that this was a victory in this larger war, basically spiritual battle to bring about the kingdom of God. And so then I went and what became kind of interesting was that my presence there, became a little, I mean, obviously I identified myself as a reporter, but they were soon trying to discern who I was spiritually. Like, was I a sent by God or was I possibly a demonic force invading this space? And it was a bit unusual for me, but I ended up putting that in the story. because I thought it was telling as far as how people see the world. So, and at the end of the day, I guess you can read the story and find out what happened and how I came out there. Yeah, no, think that part that you included in that story. really would speak to folks that attend church and have been a part of any sort of like, you know, church type of meeting for growth or, you know, volunteering or something like that. Like all of us that have been in church for, you know, more than a year, I probably like related to what you're we're doing. And especially like if you're a Democrat and you're going to a church, like you've definitely felt that because like we've been told we're going to hell basically like from the moment we were saved. I am kind of curious though like what brought you to like start looking into this story and like was there something that you're kind of seeing a trend or whatnot that led you to go to this church? Well, I mean to back way up, I was born and raised in Alabama and I was raised in the Southern Baptist Church. My grandparents were Southern Baptists. one grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher and so that was really the world that I grew up in and as I got older, I started to become really interested in the role that the church played in Alabama in the South, the Southern Baptist Church during the Civil Rights Movement and sort of this idea that, you know, a lot of people talk these days about churches becoming political, which to me is kind of funny because I feel like... know, churches have always played an incredibly important role in politics, maybe not explicitly as far as endorsing a particular candidate necessarily, but in politics in the largest sense, I the Southern Baptist Church played a very important role in blessing the status quo of segregation. you know, obviously we all know that, you know, Martin Luther King's letter from a Birmingham jail was very much directed at sort of moderate evangelical churches and pastors and so forth. So anyway, so I had long had an interest in this subject, but specifically, I used to work for the Washington Post and back in, I think it was 2021, right after the 2020 election, I had an assignment to write about which I had done before, but write about Trump and evangelicals, basically. And to be perfectly honest, I sort of was a little bit dreading the assignment because I felt like I knew these people. I felt like we've written about them. I know who these, you know, I felt like we got it. You know, we know, we know. But I soon found myself at this church in Fort Worth, Texas called Mercy Culture. And I think I was drawn to that particular church because they had endorsed, actually it was a church elder, was running for mayor of Fort Worth. And so the church was really behind him and mobilizing behind him. So I thought that was interesting. So in I go and what I saw at that church was just, I was like, okay, I don't, like I'm out of touch with what's really happening. in this world of evangelical Christianity. It wasn't even, didn't even begin to describe what I saw. I thought the action was, you know, back with the Southern Baptists and all these old institutions that, you know, and I knew about, of course, like non-denominational Christianity and all of that, but this was something totally different. I mean, this was, you know, it was not just the lights and the music, but it was the pastor got on stage and he... demon mapped the whole city of Fort Worth. He described how the principality of greed had taken hold in one area and the principality of lust had taken hold in another area. And so this was just, I knew I was just in a different kind of realm. And so that was sort of my first introduction to it. This idea of spiritual warfare and... and everything that comes with the NAR. Hey Josh, real fast, I'm curious though, like, what's a principality? Are you asking me what a principality is? You're asking Stephanie. I don't really know who to ask. mean, you're the sort of religious... so feel free. I would just describe a principality as coming from the book of Ephesians and other parts of the Bible where Paul says our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities and spiritual forces of darkness in high places. And so then it becomes this thing where now there's these specific demonic forces tied to that maybe express themselves in the temptation towards greed or towards lust, just to use Stephanie's example, and then they have some kind of geographically confined influence, which has some, some, let me emphasize some biblical basis, but I think that they've obviously, in my opinion, taken this far beyond. kind of, go ahead, Stephanie, if there's anything on that you wanted to comment on. No, please go on. Well, you know, I just think this is, I think this is so important to talk about because there's, we've been talking about it for a while, and I, and a lot of people have been thinking about this. And for a while, was pretty resistant to imagine that my kind of, tribe, which I grew up Pentecostal, my tribe has gotten to this place of It seems like a deep lust for power and just wants to so much be a part of this, the power structures, and have found this immense opportunity in Donald Trump. And I've grown up thinking, hey, Christians should have political influence. It was very much part of my upbringing. I was like, well, why should we not be able to have political influence when X, Y, or Z group has political influence? We should do that. We should... try to make sure that everyone in government to the best of our ability is Christian, not even understanding what like the how of that or what that would mean in my mind, just say, pray. Hopefully they have some kind of revelation or experience with God that then changes them. But it seems like there's something so much beyond that right now, something that gives me a lot of discomfort. There's a lot of things about the NAR movement that maybe I'm in, you know, there's ignorance behind it, but it makes me profoundly. uncomfortable. I would love to bring this to this kind of thinking about the person who's listening. You're to have some people that automatically are going to be like, man, I can't believe that we have this stuff in the government. should be we should be like doing basically exactly what they're doing with Doge, but against these nar people, getting them out of everything, you know, you know, completely erasing them from the political system. and they're going to have other people that say, I don't really see anything wrong with what they're doing. I would love for you to help us understand why should and then there's people in the middle, right? They're like, I don't know what to think about this. Why should the average person care about something like the new apostolic reformation? Even like they kind of bring it home for us. How is this going to affect or what they want going to affect local schools, laws? personal freedoms, things like that. What's going on there? Because I think it's so important that people hear the argument and understand why should I even be concerned about that. Right. Well, there's so much, there's so much to say about it. to answer that question most directly, and I think this is, you know, gets confusing maybe sometimes, but you know, so many, I mean, everybody brings their values to politics, including people who are, you know, Christians or, you know, various faith backgrounds. You know, there's nothing, you know, unusual or certainly nothing wrong with having your values, your faith, your beliefs influence your policy positions and, you know, whether you want to help the homeless or, you know, whatever. You believe in a bigger role for the church or, you know, whatever it is. Like, that has been going on and... And I don't think that that is, you know, I don't think anyone would find anything wrong with that. That's what people do. I think that, you know, what's different about the New Apostolic Reformation and this set of ideas, and I should just, I should say that you won't find anyone who says, yes, I'm a member of the New Apostolic Reformation. It's really best thought of as a collection of ideas and... know, convictions, beliefs, a way of even bigger, it's like a way of seeing the world basically. And so the most serious thinkers in this movement, and I say that because, you know, they're leaders and they're followers and it's a spectrum, you know, so, but, you know, but the most serious thinkers in this movement really believe that if you're the followers of God, have a mandate to bring about an actual earthly kingdom of God now. To take dominion, Christian dominion, as they understand that, over government and the other seven mountains. is just, to say the seven mountains, this is something that, one way to think of it is just like an operational plan. It's one thing to say we want to bring about the kingdom. The Seven Mountains mandate has become popularized as almost like the way to operationalize this concept. But they want to literally establish a kingdom of God. Now what exactly does that look like is a matter of a lot of debate, and I don't know if they even know exactly. But they know for sure that it involves their God being supreme. And so when you get into that territory, you start raising, having serious questions about religious pluralism, separation of church and state, and on individual freedoms. If you're not a believer, what is your place in this world, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You start talking about a different kind of society. And for people who follow this movement, I think it's important to say, and I've spent a lot of time with people in this movement, and they will say, you know what? Who doesn't want a kingdom of God? It's gonna be great. There's gonna be no poverty, there's gonna be no racism, there's gonna be, know, everyone's gonna love each other, and they have a very almost utopian idea of what this is gonna look like. These people are sincere. And they really, it's important to understand that because that helps to understand how they're motivated and how they really, I mean, obviously in any movement as big as this, you're gonna have charlatans and you're gonna have power hungry people. You're gonna have all kinds of people in it. But I'm talking about the sincere people. That's what they would say. so I think it's different. There's like an issue there. issue there to say the least between like the idea of the First Amendment and the idea of a secular government basically that allows people to express their religious faith and their values versus a government that is based on the idea that one God, their God is supreme over everything. I don't know if that helps sort of make the distinction because, know, yeah, but that's the, you know, to elaborate even more, you know, they would see God and government are in competition. at the current, you know, on the way to this kingdom, you know, part of bringing about the kingdom is diminishing government and just really destroying, know, dismantling. institutions of government where they would want for God and the church and this kingdom to take over basically. And so I think that's where you see an alliance right now with Trump and even Elon Musk and so on and so forth. just, just, um, real quick, um, are, do you live near an airport by any chance? Okay. I, I, heard, I heard the sound of like a plane in the background and, I just. that near. No, I don't know what I don't live that close. Just want to make sure everything's okay. sometimes when you hear those weird noises on podcasts, especially if somebody is listening to this in their car, they're looking in their rear view mirror, like, the heck? live in the city, there's a lot of noises of traffic, whatever. those those those like seven mountains or those seven aspects. It's government, business, education, family, arts, media and religion. And if you have trouble memorizing them, you can you could just say great beliefs and power, freedom, abolish manipulative religion or genuine belief embraces fairness and many religions. I had I had Grock make those for me. So yeah, thanks. Thanks, Elon. Anyway, I am curious, like, what's what's the origin story of of this movement? And it almost sounds like it's not. It's a philosophy, but it's also like a theology. And it seems like it has lots of like tidbits that come in from all these different. like sectors that we're familiar with as Christians. what's the origin story of it? Well, let's see, strictly speaking, the name itself goes back all the way back to the early 90s. It's not really that old. This is not like some, you know, but C. Peter Wagner was really the person who was not like the founder of this, because that would be a misconception, but he was someone who he and his colleagues at that time gave a name. to something that they saw happening in Christianity worldwide. And C. Peter Wagner, in particular, had spent a couple of decades in Bolivia as a missionary. I forget what his denomination was. But when he was there, what he saw was like. just church growth, like explosive church growth in the charismatic sort of Pentecostal vein. He saw people who were claiming to have been healed and signs and wonders and he came to, when he returned to the US, he was in California and this was the aftermath of the 60s and there were a lot of also religious movements and a lot of charismatic Christianity and sort of new ideas. percolating in California and across the country. so, you know, so there were, you know, different, you know, people who were embracing sort of more charismatic Christianity, the idea, like I said, the idea of signs and wonders. And there were even some people who were starting to consider themselves to be prophets, like modern day apostles and prophets. and see Peter Wagner encounter these people, and I'm giving you the just brief, briefest history, just way deeper than this, but he came to believe that there was a sort of fresh movement of the Holy Spirit, you know, that had been unleashed around the globe, like a new great awakening, if you will, and that there were these modern day apostles and prophets and that God was speaking through them and God was speaking fresh words. And this is very key to understanding this movement that the Bible wasn't everything, that there are fresh words on a daily basis, on a weekly basis, on an hourly basis, that there are people who are gifted by God and that they have this ability to, God speaks through them. And so C. Peter Wagner believed all of this. There was also this idea of dominionism that was going around. And this, again, was the idea that if you're Christian, the idea is that you're not just supposed to sit in the corner and pray on Sunday and wait for the... wait for the rapture, you know what I mean? You are supposed to, if you're a real believing Christian, God wants you to go into the world and take action and bring about the kingdom now, not later, now. In fact, some believe that the kingdom is already here and it's just you're, if you're a follower, do you acknowledge that or not? Are you in it? out of it. And so, interestingly, it's kind of like, of course, like all the, all this ultimately ends up aligning with conservative politics, with Republican politics, to some degree with libertarian ideas. And what's interesting about the origin story there is that C. Peter Wagner was in Bolivia in the 60s at the time when, you know, you have to sort of think back. This was obviously the civil rights movement, all kinds of rights movements worldwide, underway, and part of that was liberation theology. And liberation theology was really taking hold in Latin America, and it was associated with the Cold War. But it was also sort of this idea of bring the kingdom, the kingdom is now. You know, and and but that meant social justice that meant reforming institutions that meant a more equal society that meant a lot of things that ended up associated with communism During that time and so see peter wagner ultimately It's kind of interesting to think about the development of this all these ideas in that context as well because he was also kingdom now if you will but in a way that was pro-unbridled capitalism and had a different set of goals, let's say, than the liberation theology that was taking hold. So it was kind of like a mirror image in a way of that. Got it. Just real fast again, because you mentioned Bolivia, and your article mentioned something about the CIA. Can you just expand on that a little bit? Well, mean, so this is not the modern CIA. This is like before there was a lot of reforms in the 70s actually because of this. they're, they're, you know, in the past, the CIA did sometimes collaborate with, with missionaries and so forth in foreign countries, which is not supposed to happen now. It's like forbidden now. But back then, you know, that was something that was done. And there was the, think it was the Church Commission, you know, this famous report that was sort of exposing a lot of this and putting an end to that. But yeah, it was the Cold War. And so it was the great competition for hearts and minds and religion was part of that. Yeah. that's, I appreciate the CIA and their, you never, did we ever think that we were gonna get the CIA and the NAR in the same conversation? I guess now. I didn't want to go that far, but at all. There's any evidence of that that I know of. you know, I think, but I do think it's, I just think for context, you know, it's interesting to understand that this thing came, this thing sort of came about and the first networks were organized, you know, at a time when all of this stuff was in the air. We're coming out of, yeah. tumultuous time in the 50s and 60s. And there's a lot of fear and there's a lot of change. so, I'm not trying to suggest that like, the NAR was like a CIA operation. But, no. are. And you heard it first here folks on Faithful Politics. No, I'm just kidding. But I do think that, I mean, a lot of people were influenced by that kind of thinking in the 60s. This fear of encroaching communism and a lot of things got labeled. And I mean, we'll look at today. mean, look at, mean, it's becoming a new boogeyman, if you will. Absolutely. And this idea of the kingdom of God, know, so interesting because that when Jesus came, his primary message was kingdom of God. And then, of course, he completely flipped everyone's expectations as to what that actually meant. But that language itself is still very, it's very powerful. It's very powerful to connect to people's minds and to get them motivated and to make them want to change the world around them and the things around them, even policies. And I would love for you to kind of explore, help us understand what are the policy shifts or influence that we're seeing? Like how is this movement affecting policy? What can we look at right now and say, this movement is starting to affect policies and it's taking, you know, it's not just on a fringe thing. Like this is starting to make differences in people's lives. Right. I think that it's a really good question. mean, you know, I think certainly you see it on the abortion front, you know. But I think that, you know, another way to think of it is, I mean, certainly these people, their policies, their goals sort of generally align with Republican Party politics. But I think where you... where you feel the influence is in the election itself. I mean, in the very election of Donald Trump, you feel it in what is happening, this idea, this dismantling of government. More specifically, recently, we've seen the, I forget what it was called, but Trump has appointed this faith. Yeah, like the Faith concert Polaroid Yeah, Paula White, yeah, the faith, I forget exactly what it's called, but, know, suppose, what's that? I was saying, and so Paula White is of course Trump's spiritual advisor, but what is often left out of stories about her is that she's also an apostle. And she's a little bit of a Johnny come lately to this movement. I mean, she was just, I think sort of would be, considered independent, charismatic, televangelist, you know, for a long time. She comes out of the Pentecostal traditions, Mississippi girl and everything. But in more recent years, she has embraced, you know, this idea of spiritual warfare and this model of governing her church where she's an apostle, which gives her an enormous amount of authority over her church. mean... Southern Baptist churches are like little democracies in a way. The congregation has power to hire and fire, in a way, pastors. And the apostolic churches are top down. so, but anyway, so Paula White is an apostle and she was the one who Trump sort of connected with and she sort of opened the door to this world for him. in many ways. And so she is now heading up this faith office in the new administration. And what they're talking about doing is ending Christian persecution. And I don't know exactly what that is going to mean. But I think that that is something to follow, what exactly that's going to mean. So I think that in terms of specific policies, I think it's almost more like the larger goal of dismantling government. think that they want to the Johnson amendment, overturn the Johnson amendment so that churches can openly endorse candidates. I think they probably will want to see people in their movement having a larger role in schools, seeing God. you know, their version of God, you know, in schools more, in the public square more, and things like this. So, but, you know, I think it's something to follow actually going forward, to say the least. Getting rid of the Johnson Amendment seems like a weird one because it's like, I mean, who's getting prosecuted for the Johnson Amendment? And it's like you, you watch somebody like a pastor, Jeffress, and you're like, really? Like, like he just said that. And you know, yet like Josh, and I know this because I attend his church, like is very sort of, he sort of walks that line, you know, like he's not going to just straight up there and be like, hi, my name is Josh Bertram and you all need to vote for Trump or. You can get out. like Josh doesn't do that. Josh is just like, hey, you should treat other people nice, you know, like, and yeah, don't don't like, I don't know, be racist or something. So, you know, I am curious, though, about. So the seven pillars, mountains, spheres, whatever you want to call them, as I'm looking at them now, the government, business, education, family, arts, media and religion. or great beliefs, empire, freedom, abolish manipulative religion, however you want to remember it. It seems like they've got a lot of these things already kind of like locked down or at least are in a position to, mean, like the government. Okay, so Trump's in the White House. Paula White's got this White House, wait, because I just looked it up. She's got this White House faith office, you know, business. That one maybe not as clear cut, but like the education for sure. mean, you got Linda McMahon in there and she's got a mandate to demolish everything. And then we go to school choice, which is just like, you know, like a byproduct of, you know, post desegregation Brown v board education kind of thing. Family, I'd say they are doing pretty well there. Arts is a weird one. I'm not really quite sure that one, although Trump did just declare himself the chairman of the Kennedy Arts Center. So I'm not really quite sure like how, if how that fits in. But anyways, like you see where I'm going. I love, I love for you just to kind of expand on that a little bit more. Like how, how is this stuff that we're talking about real in people's lives, whether they go to church or not go to church. You know, when you've got folks that are scratching their heads being like, wait, what? Like, why, why am I mandated to pray every single day in my school when I didn't used to have to do that? So I'd love for you just to kind of elaborate. on sort of how this is affecting people's daily lives or how it could, I guess like, well, that would, you know, maybe that would be one way. I mean, I think the, as I said, like, you the, you know, I mean, people have different views on this, but on the abortion question, I mean, that's already certainly affecting people's lives, particularly in certain states. And, you know, again, I think that, You know, this movement is also very active in local politics. mean, so you, know, back to the education thing, I mean, lot of these people are running for school boards. I couldn't give you, you know, chapter and verse of like all the school boards where they maybe have control, but I know that they have definitely run for school boards. This movement is the leading edge of being against pushing the idea that homosexuality is a sin and should not be gay marriage. The government should not be supporting these institutions, adoptions. Obviously the whole transgender thing, this is very big for these people. They don't want any kind of support for that. we're already seeing the rolling back or an attempt to roll back a lot of these kind of rights that they would see as ungodly and not in line with what God wants for humankind and the way that God wants society to be structured. So yeah, so it's just on the business front, it's funny that, it's not funny, there are lot of business people who have investment groups, who have businesses that they shorthand it. They'll say, are you kingdom? I'm kingdom, we're kingdom. And so they will invest accordingly in things that they believe are gonna bring about the kingdom. So I think that, you know, it can seem sort of nebulous, but again, I would just point to the fact that Trump got elected, these people voted and they organized. And the fact that we see Elon Musk, you know, indulge dismantling government, that is something that— as far as can tell, these people be very supportive of, very supportive. Elon Musk, I should say, I mentioned this in my story, but he spoke at an NAR church in Harrisburg just before the election, which I don't think was a, I mean, maybe it's just he just needed a venue, but of all the places, the fact that he spoke there, I think was interesting. And there is a sort of, how do I put it, There's an alignment or potential alliance, is maybe a better word to use, between the goals of people who are libertarian in their thinking and this movement, because both want to minimize government, both want to shrink the government. So I think there's something kind of interesting going on there between the tech billionaire libertarian thinking and this movement. I can't remember what the stat was, but I think that you did include some statistics in there from Paul Jupe. Jupe? think that's right. Sorry, Paul. But can you go over that? What's the reach of this movement? Yeah, well, will say, according to his surveys, we're talking about millions of people, millions of people embracing these ideas. And again, it can seem, I forget, I would have to call up the story to get the exact numbers, but it's really astonishing how many Americans who consider themselves Christians are embracing things like the Seven Mountains mandate. Things like spiritual warfare. Things like the idea that demons can control territories. Things that are key ideas in this movement. And I think that's the way to think of it. Because if you were to put a survey again and ask, are you a believer in the New Apostolic Reformation? People would say, I don't know what you're talking about. But if you said, you believe in God's dominion over the seven mountains, some astonishing number of Americans embrace that idea. And so this survey is one of the first to really try to get at that because a lot of surveys of American religiosity and identification are still asking, are you evangelical? Are you Methodist, Presbyterian, Catholic, whatever? Like these kind of old, I mean, they're not old exactly. It's valuable, but a lot of the surveys are missing this, the growth of these ideas. They will capture it in the, if they ask about charismatic Christianity or if they ask if you're non-denominational, a lot of people who fall into this, who believe these ideas would maybe consider themselves to be non-denominational. But this, Paul Juppé has done this more fine, finer-grained surveys that capture how these ideas are really spreading. And interestingly, and I wrote about a woman in this category, is a follower of this movement, and she hardly goes to church, but she follows prophets and apostles, and she sees herself as part of this movement, of this great outpouring of the Holy Spirit that is... at work in the world currently. These people see themselves, yes, as not part of a church or denomination. They see themselves as part of a movement that is doing something, that is aggressive, that's going out there, that has a mission. In the here and now, it's so much more... I guess aggressive would be a word or action oriented than your average Christian who thinks like, yeah, I'm a Christian and I need to support the homeless, the soup kitchen or donate to the poor or vote a certain way because of my values. This is like, no, I have to get out there and take over the school board, take over the sheriff's office, take over Congress, et cetera. So I would love, I mean, this is, I hear what you're saying and I'm very sympathetic to a lot of what you're saying. And I've wrestled with this idea of the NAR for a couple of years now, ever since I really started understanding what it was. I've wrestled with it. I've had some very deep disagreements personally. And just trying to work through this and this rise of Christian nationalism and trying to understand how much is media-driven, how much is true. What I mean media-driven is it well understood, are things that are just kind of normal Christianity being portrayed as Christian nationalism and put this kind of like ultimately or just like immediately negative. or prima facie negative idea and connotation to this first. And so it's just negative from the beginning and then trying to work all that out. And then, I mean, I've just been wrestling with it and I really appreciate the conversation. And I would love for you to help us even understand in your research, understanding the thought process of someone like who's really trying to influence politically. And I guess like thinking about Donald Trump, thinking about Ron DeSantis, thinking about Supreme Court justices, thinking about other governors, people in places of power, how have they become influenced by this group? Like what has been the mechanism of action? you know how, how is it that we now have this? Like how can, how do they become so influential in people's, in these, in these kind of political figures lives? And I guess on that, how do we know, like what are some maybe key words? And I know we've kind of talked about them and alluded to them, or there's going to be some overlap here, but a lot of times politicians will kind of hide things, right? And the way that they're speaking and signal, how would we know that someone is Christian nationalism or Christian nationalists rather are influenced by that on the governmental level by kind of seeing by looking at what they're saying in their speeches or things like that. Does the question make sense? I think so. feel free to stop me if I'm going off on a tangent. I think that, I mean, there are a lot of ways to answer the question. so one way is that, you know, I think that you see the growing influence of this movement reflected in the language that someone like Tucker Carlson has started using or Charlie Kirk or Trump himself. The language is, they talk about demons. They talk about demonic forces. Tucker Carlson was raised Episcopalian. I don't know why he's talking about being mauled by a demon in his sleep and waking up with claw marks on his body, but he's talked that way and he has started embracing the language. Presumably, I mean, I don't wanna, talk about what may be in his heart or what he believes or whatever, but I think that it, you know, he's a communicator. So he's communicating to people who know, who are familiar with this storyline, with this language, with this way of thinking. Roger Stone, you know, the political operative, spoke of a demonic portal over the White House in an interview. I think this was, maybe after 2020 or something. But why? I mean, is Roger Stone NAR? I don't know, probably not. But he knows the language that is resonating with a certain population of voters. And Roger Stone probably, I'm guessing, understands very well that this movement, Trump needed—what did he call them? Low-propensity voters. He needed to activate new voters in 2016. to be elected. He was not popular among evangelical Christians at the beginning in 2015, 2016. So Roger Stone, think, political operatives, I think understood that these so-called prophecy voters, these people were filling churches. They weren't just white. They were also black and Latino, and they were all the kinds of people that Trump would need. So they went after them, you know, and there's a reason why there was a, you know, the Cyrus or whatever, idea that Trump was King Cyrus. I mean, I think that this was, you know, this was Lance Walno explaining to all these people how God was using Trump, you know. Isaiah 45 and then the 45th president. Yeah, there's so many I mean, there's so many things. So you're starting to see politicians adopt this language maybe because they are believing it or maybe because they understand that this is a constituency. These are voters and that they can speak to them. So I think that you see the appeal to heaven flag. You know, this is the white flag with the green pine tree that says, to heaven. This flag was a revolutionary era flag that has been sort of adopted by Dutch Sheets, who's a hugely influential prophet and apostle. think he considers himself to be both. But he popularized this flag as a symbol of this movement. And, you know, the Speaker of the House has this flag posted outside of his office. You know, is he, you know, NAR per se or whatever? I mean, again, like no one says, I'm NAR, but it's they embrace this idea. They maybe understand the value of courting this growing. Christianity is basically declining in America, you know, in this country. It's in the decline. But these voters have long been a very important constituency for the Republican Party. I mean, I know especially in the South. so if this world, if, you know, this is the one segment that seems to be growing, that seems to be growing, the charismatic Pentecostal and, you know, NAR-ish sector of Christianity, this is the growth sector, you know, so. So I think that you're, you know, that's why you're seeing this language appear in a lot of different places and with politicians. Okay, so influence. There's the example of the Alabama judge, the Supreme Court Justice, Judge Parker. He had, you know, there are these like, there are any number of ways that these people function politically. One of them is, you know, they have prayer networks, prayer networks, like Intercessors for America, or Cindy Jacobs has Generals International. And then there's this guy named Clay Nash, Clay Nash, who, I think it was Clay Nash, who had these prayer calls, 50 state prayer calls. And who would join the prayer calls? Judge Parker joined them. Congressman joined them. A lot of political figures join these prayer calls where they talk about the kingdom and bringing about the kingdom. And all of this stuff kind of flies under the radar, but if you start looking, you'll see. And your listener may think, well, who cares about a prayer network? Well, one way to think about a prayer network is it's a list of names, of voters. They're blasting out emails all the time. They're telling people what to pray for. And what are they supposed to pray for? Elon Musk, Trump, Doge. It's way of telling people what to be for. It's a way of political organizing in a way, in the context of prayer. That's another way of thinking about, again, what does a prayer list have to do with democracy? you know, influencing government. It's a way of communicating, organizing. I mean, the basis of politics is lists of names. That's what politics is, lists and reaching out to people fundamentally, whether you're the UAW or whatever you are, you know, so they, you know, that's a version. So I don't know if I'm answering your question at all. I hope I am. I kind of went on a long thing there, but. Yeah, you know, it's a, I can't remember if it's Anne Nelson's Shadow Network or Catherine Stewart's Power Worshippers. Both great books, but they start their book talking about how they would have similar church meetings, kind of like the one that you talked about at very beginning. But then they would train folks how to essentially get new voters. And as the author was unpacking this, I was just clearly seeing this is a church growth model. And... absolutely. Well, C. Peter Wagner was professor of church growth at Fuller Theological Seminary. Yeah, exactly. like, mean, back before we moved to Virginia, I lived in Washington state and I was a youth pastor and I attended all these conferences and these worship conferences and you know, and I even took my kids on a mission trip down to California. There's this organization down there that takes youth groups and you essentially evangelize and basically on Skid Row. I mean, literally, it's like I've got these like teens and there's all these like druggies and people that are unhoused and they're just like out there and like, I mean, it's a pretty sweet spot if you knew you're going to have sort of rotating cast of folks bringing you food and, and, and have conversations with you. But like, even when I think back now, like that, that sort of like training that we did to evangelize was almost textbook, like how, how these churches are going out and getting folks. And I, and I, and I got to ask because like, you know, you're You're talking about all this stuff, folks that are believers are like, really? Like, man, like that's my church, you know, and it sucks that all this is happening. Like, have you seen, like, opponents to New Apostolic Reformation type of, you know, theology? Have you seen opponents, you know, actually be effective and, you know, challenging it or pushing back against it or anything like that? I haven't written about that kind of conflict myself, but it was interesting to hear the other day the former president of the National Council of Churches, John—I can't say his last name correctly—Doorhour, but he was speaking—I'm sorry about that, but he was talking about a very concerted effort by— people in this movement organize to divide his church in a very intentional way. I think he's United Church of Christ, and they embrace LGTBQ rights and all these things, which people in this movement consider to be just heretical, basically. so he spoke about this very intentional effort to divide. his church and ultimately, you know, he considered it to be like to sort of destroy his church. And so he's been speaking out against this pretty forcefully. But it's interesting because this, you know, the religion is one of the seven mountains, right? And one may think, well, that's kind of odd. These people believe that denominations are dividing the body of Christ. They don't believe in denominations. They don't believe in, they would wish for all of that to go away. so, in a way, it sounds paradoxical, but they are anti-religion, in a way. They call it the religious spirit. you, and they, You know, they're very skeptical of denominations and even though they have their own churches and everything, course, but yeah. I've heard from, you know, I had email from a Lutheran in Alabama who, a woman who said that, you know, these ideas sort of got introduced into her church. And it basically ended up, you know, splitting the church and ultimately, you know, diminishing the church. you know, so, you know, so I guess that that sort of thing goes on. you know, you've seen it, like with the... I don't know about you, Josh, but if you get pressure from people in your congregation maybe to embrace Trump, it becomes a dividing point, I suppose, in a lot of churches. Yeah, we are in an interesting time, I think, as the church. I mean, I think we have a few dividing points and it's becoming increasingly difficult. And I think... You know, there is a dividing point surrounding LGBTQ acceptance and and then there's this dividing point surrounding the MAGA and then there's dividing points surrounding some of the things that happen with George Floyd and quote unquote wokeness and things like that. And like being a pastor today is very difficult because you don't feel like you can really make anyone happy and you're trying to be in the middle, which I have tried to be and you know I try to be understanding and and that doesn't necessarily sell and people don't necessarily like that and so it's it's definitely like a very it's a very difficult space to be in it's a very difficult space and and I know it's affecting more than just pastors and more than just churches it's it's affecting families I've seen it affect families and It's just, it's really, really hard to try to be the person that is trying to bridge, build bridges as opposed to walls because you don't know exactly how the other person is going to interpret what you're doing. And the bridge can be offensive. It's going to be offensive to people that don't want a bridge on either side. They want a very clear wall of separation. that's not just between the church and the state, right? It's between certain theological views and other ones and they don't like the mixture. It creates a profound discomfort in a lot of people and it takes some courage to try to keep moving forward because it's very easy to remain in your echo chamber and to say bold things to the other side when everyone around you already agrees with what you're saying and they're going to celebrate it as you say it. And it's created a very difficult very difficult atmosphere to pastor in and it feels like you're not allowed to not have a side and I just it gives me heartburn for sure. We've been able to kind of do it at our church but I'm just like waiting for the thing that happens or the person that comes in or whatever it is that they get really offended or whatever it is. just by virtue of my beliefs, maybe not even something that I teach, but something that's just my beliefs. And people will get offended by that on both sides, I found. And truly, I mean that, like on both sides. Very offended that I didn't, I wasn't, like had a, have a, you know, rainbow flag outside the church and offended that I didn't have a MAGA flag, you know, symbolically speaking outside of the church. And it's, it's very difficult. And it makes me think, And I'd love to hear your reflections on anything that I've said for sure. My question is, what are you kind of most hopeful about and most concerned about? If you can find helpful things, I'd love for you to do that. What are you most hopeful about and concerned about over the next four, but really it's beyond four years, let's just be honest, over the next few decades as a country? Well, mean, you know, I'm a journalist, I'm not one to prognosticate and that kind of thing. But I can say what I, know, one thing that I think is, is interesting. mean, I guess, you know, a lot of people in this movement, like I said, you know, these are since, you know, people are, these are sincerely held beliefs. And, and I haven't seen a lot of dissent from, you know, the Trump agenda amongst these people, really. I mean, they pretty much tend to be in lockstep. And, but I did, and I mentioned this in the story, Just after the election, I was at a church, one of these churches in Harrisburg, and they had a guest speaker, James Garlington is his name, and he's a big figure in this movement, very well respected. He was saying the things that you would expect how, you know— This was a victorious moment. Trump had won, etc., etc. But then at some point, he started talking about Trump's promise of deporting, you know, the deportations, the largest deportation in American history or whatever he's promising. And he said something really interesting. He said, what if all these people coming across the border are actually the harvest, he said. And so he said, what if they're coming to us? instead of us going out to them. he's speaking of it, of course, in religious terms, as like these people are coming, they're gonna be coming to us, they're gonna be coming to our churches, and they're coming to God, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought that was really interesting. It was a brief and kind of incongruent moment in his sermon, if you will. And I thought, well, yeah, these churches have a lot of Latino congregants or followers. I mean, Trump kicked off his outreach in, I think in 2020 at a church in Miami. The apostle is, I believe he's Honduran American, but huge Latino church, huge. I think it's one of the lords called El Rey Jesus, like one of the biggest Latino churches in the country at one point it was anyway. And so I thought that was interesting. And so it just suggests that, you know, amongst the people who aren't necessarily just power hungry and whatever. Maybe there is some wrestling with what all of this means. So I guess there's that. You know, and I suppose, you know, it's just like you talk to people and like I said, I guess I would find hope in the, you know, guess the sincerity of people and which suggests to me that, you know, that their ability to listen and to have a conversation maybe. I I don't know, but I, you know, but I think that maybe the troubling thing is You know, the fact, and something that's really important to understand, if you want to understand people in this movement, is this deep, deep, deep belief that hell is real, and heaven is real, and Satan and demonic forces are real, and I think there's a lot of fear there around, you know, these forces get assigned to certain things. They get assigned to gay people. They get assigned to Kamala Harris. They get assigned, they get associated with certain things. And I think that there's just a lot of fear that people have at a fundamental level of wanting to believe the right thing or not wanting to get caught up in demonic whatever. mean, it can sound silly if you're not in it, maybe, to people who weren't raised in that way. But this is a really powerful force. It's very powerful when you start talking about this stuff. you know, as someone who was raised in the Southern Baptist Church, you know, I was like, you mean I'm gonna go to hell? You know, sign me up to get baptized. Like how fast can I get dunked? Like, yeah, I don't want any, I don't want pain for all of eternity. You know what I mean? So it's like, you know, it's a very, you know, can be a very powerful force and can be, you know, I suppose. a way that people can be manipulated and taught not to trust their mind. Taught not to trust their mind. This movement is very emotional, very, very emotional, very cathartic, and very much teaches people that your brain is where Satan works. Yeah. which is concerning, right? mean, I understand again, like I don't have time to... Yeah into all the ins and outs of that and hey, what would that mean on a theological spiritual level and then what does that mean for application and what does the Bible teach that? there's room for arguments on all that, but the emotion, I totally hear you're saying, I feel therefore it's true. That's like the raining, you know, saying and I've seen so much around me and even in my own heart and I think we need to move away from that and I appreciate your work. How can people follow what you're doing and keep up with you? Can they follow you on social media? How can they connect with your work? Yes, I am on Blue Sky and Twitter both and I write for the Atlantic and you know, I urge people to subscribe. I mean, it's cost money, but to do journalism costs money and I think it's an important moment to support, you know, to support journalism, whether it's my old Washington Post or... The Atlantic or the New York Times or your local paper even more importantly probably right now your local paper. But yeah, but that's where you can find me at the Atlantic and those two social media places for now. Yeah, that's great. We are big fans of reporters and journalists here on Faithful Politics. Definitely want to support and you guys and encourage that. And to our viewers and listeners, thanks so much for joining us guys. Make sure you hit like, subscribe, share this. We really try to bring you great content that you can share with people that isn't. waste of your time but it's a very good use of it. And so please help us support what we're doing and support Stephanie McCrumman. We're gonna put links to her articles and on the show notes and just make sure that you check her workout in the Atlantic. And guys thank you so much for being here and until next time keep your conversations not right or left but up. Have a great day. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.