How White Christian Nationalism Threatens the Church with Dr. Greg Garrett

In recent years, white Christian nationalism has grown from a fringe ideology into a dominant force shaping American politics and religious identity. But what happens when Christianity is weaponized for power rather than justice? In this episode, political host Will Wright and pastor Josh Burtram sit down with Dr. Greg Garrett, Baylor University professor and prolific author, to unpack how white Christian nationalism is driving people—especially younger generations—away from the church.

Drawing from decades of research, personal experience, and his work at Baptist News Global, Garrett explores the rise of anti-justice theology, the quantifiable damage to church membership, and how Christians can resist in a Christ-like way. He also reflects on the importance of listening to Black churches, learning from marginalized voices, and reclaiming a Gospel centered on love, humility, and service.

Guest Bio:
Dr. Greg Garrett is a professor of English at Baylor University and one of America's leading voices on faith, race, and social justice. He is the author of over 25 books, including recent works on James Baldwin and Christian nationalism. He is a regular contributor to Baptist News Global, where he interviews theologians, pastors, and activists shaping the future of the church.

🔗 Resources & Links:
Greg Garrett’s Interview Series at Baptist News Global: https://baptistnews.com/article/author/greggarrett/

Transcript

0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching on our YouTube channel, we're so happy to have you. I am your political host, Will Wright, joined by my trusty sidekick, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? And we have with us returning from the great state of Texas, I believe, Dr. Greg Garrett, who's a professor at Baylor University, prolific author, leading voice on faith, race and social justice. He writes a few words in Baptist News Global, and where his work actually explores the intersection of Christianity, politics, and cultural narratives. He has been on a focus on white Christian nationalism and has written a score and a half of books. my gosh. I looked it up today, Greg, like over books. Like, where do you get the time? Yeah. That's just what I tell people now. They're like, have you written any books? And I'm like, yeah. Too many. Don't even, don't even try. carpal tunnel? I mean, like, that's really the real question, you know? that's fair. Like, my gosh, I can imagine like just all that, all that typing. So, you know, but yeah, hey, how's, how's it going, Greg? How's life been treating you since last time we talked to you about Mr. Baldwin? You know, many good things have happened since the last time I saw you guys. So Josh and Will, it's such a joy to be back on with you. And so one of the things I know we're going to talk about is that early last year, around the time we were talking about my work on James Baldwin, I had started doing this interview series for Baptist Global News, News Global, sorry, where I was, basically we were just exchanging guests. You so you you at Faithful Politics and me, you know, at Baptist News. so like, you know, together we had talked with Jamar and Beth and Tim Alberta and Robbie Jones and a number of other people. But I think the thing that's been really, really interesting since the last time I saw you is that I've been on this kind of roller coaster of emotions and like spiritual roller coaster over the last year. And so early last year, about the time we were talking, I felt like, everything is going to go to hell. That, you know, we are in such bad shape. And then for a few weeks, I thought that things were going to be okay. And then after the election of November, I was like, no, everything that I thought is about to happen. And now it's happening. And so I think one of the really interesting things about being with you all today is to think about how we have conversations with people who profess a faith in Jesus as the Christ and don't seem to be living it out in this present political moment. And so the crazy thing is like, you know, we talked a year ago, but in 2012, I wrote a book about politics and faith, and it was published by Pathios, where I used to write on a regular basis. And what I said about it in 2012, and those seem like such innocent times, is that too many American Christians put the American part of that descriptor ahead of the Christian part. You know, and they put their faith, they don't get to their faith until after they've kind of lived out their partisan political identities. And I found that to be true for lots of people in 2012, but now it just sort of feels like, you know, I don't know what kind of graph I'm describing here, but like we are off the graph in terms of how the loudest voices in American Christianity are talking about their faith and the damage being done to our faith in terms of younger generations who are completely repelled by what they're seeing. So that's my hopeful start for our conversation. I should point out, especially for our YouTube watchers, that Greg was using his arm gesture to illustrate a graph, not any other sort of notsification. There was no notification. And yeah, it was a low arm. but just imagining when we think about hate and we think about intolerance, like we are kind of at the far right end of the graph, we are up and off to the right. So yeah, thank you, Will. You're welcome. That's funny. So I mean, you know, we have... no, am I? Okay, cool. All right. So you're doing this writing and I know that you're trying to bring out really, really thought-provoking material out into the public for consumption. you know, one thing I'm... I'm thinking about and I'm reminded of is this story in and this is connecting to the comment about the loudest voices being in Christianity right now and doing damage. I'd love for you to dig into that. But I want to frame it because there's a story in the Old Testament where David, King David, best king in the history of Israel, right? The king after God's own heart. That's what the Old Testament says about him. And he does this really horrible thing where he kills Uriah the Hittite and who's married to Bathsheba. Right. Those who've read the story. It's that what's that song? Her there was a secret chord. David play when he please the Lord. Hallelujah. Right. So it's in that song. So that's probably the best way that a lot of our listeners might have even And like that story is part of the inspiration of song. so but essentially he kills the husband takes best Shiba. It's a terrible thing. But this prophet named Nathan comes to him, tells him a parable about some sheep, you know, an injustice surrounding this this one lamb that this poor person had. And this rich man comes and kills it. And then he says, you know, David gets right to the heart of David's, you know, his gets into his compassion and David, it's like, I'm to take this guy out. It's like, you're the man. He's a prophetic voice in David's life. And I would love to think about a moment how the media, especially what you're doing, how you're trying to serve as a prophetic voice for American Christianity with these voices that are so loud and you're saying you're causing such damage. I would love for you to detail that a little bit. What do you mean it's causing damage? What is the damage? Like I know we can make a lot of assumptions about their that but I'd love to hear what you think that is or have found that to be. And what how how how is what you're doing serving as a prophetic voice to confront kind of the status quo right now? Yeah, Josh, thank you so much. And I love that story, whether it's, you know, from the Hebrew Testament or from Veggie Tales, it's, it's always going to be a good story. So the damage part is actually the easiest part because it's quantifiable. And, you know, I haven't been part of the evangelical church for many, many years, but I still kind of have one foot in that world, because Baylor is a, you know, historically Baptist school where I teach. And because my entire family is evangelical, they're almost all Southern Baptist. And you may remember that one of my brothers, my younger brother, is a Southern Baptist pastor in Alabama, which is, it's pretty Southern Baptist. So for many years, I've been following the rise of what we call the nuns, the N-O-N-E-S, as opposed to the Roman Catholic, you know, sisters. And so year on year, for decades now, we've been watching the decline of membership and meaningful participation in the American Christian Church. And it goes across almost all the denominations. And what's really interesting is that whether you're looking at Robbie Jones at P.R.R.I. or you're looking at evangelicals who are doing the quantifying, there's a research center out in Arizona that I get email from just about every week. No matter what the political or kind of cultural orientation of the pollsters is, the data that keeps coming back is that people are turned away from the American church because they don't believe it's living up to Jesus, which is essentially the conversation we had a year ago about James Baldwin and why he left the church. He didn't find that the black church loved everybody. He found that the white church was repressive. And so what these these polls keep indicating to us is that our failure to love and to show compassion, and it shows itself in a multitude of ways in the polling, but misogyny, hatred towards the immigrant, homophobia, a failure to be cognizant of God's justice. And so sort of all of the things that at least, you know, in my understanding of Jesus, we need to be living into, the kind of Matthew 25 Jesus that is at the core of my faith. The conservative, evangelical, white Christian nationalist voices. turn people away from Christianity. And so rather than, you know, inviting them in, the strange thing that's happening in the polling now is that many people identify as evangelical who don't identify as Christian. And so there's a social-cultural construct around this, a culture-worse construct around it, if you will. But it's not around, you know, profession. of faith in Jesus, it's not around a commitment or a surrender. In fact, surrender is the last word that I would use for most of these Christian voices because they're all about power and all about acquisition. So that's the first piece is that there's this incredible damage that I don't know that will ever get passed. And I know you've talked to a bunch of people who consider themselves ex-vangelicals. and who are trying to kind of reconstruct or deconstruct their faith and come back to Jesus in a meaningful way. But that's the first part. I think that one of the most powerful Christian witnesses that we could have is just to simply live up to the Jesus that we find in the Scriptures. And I know we're going to talk more about white Christian nationalism. I'm going to get to your second part of your question, how to How do these things get heard? What kind of prophetic voice can we have? But it feels to me that one of the most powerful things that we can do at this point is just to live out the things that Jesus calls us to. you know, maybe it's the, you for me it's Matthew 25. You know, anybody can say, Lord, Lord, but did you visit the people in prison? Did you heal the sick? Did you feed the hungry? I mean, did you show up for the least of these? And maybe it's just Micah 6-8, which is, know, God has told you what he wants. Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly. And any iteration of Christianity that's not doing that is not only being unfaithful to the God we profess, but it is driving people away from that God. So when we think about how we get heard in the present environment, and you guys know as much about this as I do, so I'm not telling you anything, And you will probably teach me some things before we get off this call. But I think one of the things that I feel very strongly drawn to is to be a Christian voice in the intellectual marketplace that is standing up for what I think of as my Christian values. so whether it's, you know, the kind of scriptural understandings that we talked about, or even just the very basic know, commandment from the Gospel of John to love as Jesus loves. One of the interviews that I did toward the end of last fall was with Bishop Michael Curry, who was the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, African-American preacher who stepped down at the end of last year. And one of the most important messages that he has, and what I love about it is it's just so simple, what he always says is, if it isn't love, it isn't God. And So that is, you know, it's a bumper sticker. You can put that on the back of your car and, you know, and drive up next, you know, to your Tesla owning friend and, you know, maybe start some conversation that way. So how we get heard, think partly for those of us who don't want to be in this white Christian nationalist space, it's just to remind people that this is not the only Christian space. and that there are other ways to do this work and that there are other calls that are more important than this call to power and privilege. And that it is, and I will just tell you this as a person who has a mother who hears God's voice directly, if God is telling you the things that you want to hear, that may not be God. I mean just looking at the scriptural record. Over and over again, we get challenged and we get called to be something different and something new and something better in the service of God. And what scares me, think, maybe the most about white Christian nationalism is that everything that they are hearing about what faith is, is in service to who they are and to their identities. So I think we've got to put a voice out there. We've got to continue to try and talk about how we reach people in those spaces, and that would be a great conversation. I had a conversation a couple of weeks ago with a priest who serves an evangelical, elderly, white, Episcopal church in Connecticut, and he had asked me to come in and preach for the Absalom Jones feast day. Absalom Jones is the first African-American priest in the Episcopal church. I don't think that my friend Nate would be offended for me to say that he was nervous about having this conversation with his conservative white evangelical flock. And Josh, I see you nodding your head. you know, you know some things about this as well. So how do we have these conversations? How do we present an alternate witness? And then I think just in the present moment, I have moved my column, my interview series, from sort of inspiring people about how to vote around justice issues. And now I just I'm very candid that it's more about resistance. How do you continue to stand up for the values that you share and the least of these in a political system that doesn't seem to care about those things at all? I love that. And what's funny or striking in what you said about resistance. I listened to this pastor who preaches in DC, name Ben Stewart. He started teaching Ashley this huge Texas A breakaway. Then he moved to DC. And he just finished up a sermon on the Book of Daniel, did a whole series on it. And it's so interesting, I mean, because like he's talking about, you know, basically kind of what you're talking about, like resistance. OK, golden statue, bad, right? You know, like knocking about and and yeah. And and like throughout his his whole like series, he kept he kept saying, This is not a commentary on what's happening today. But everybody that was listening was like, kind of sounds like, you know, what's happening today. And it's one of those things where like, know, right? Like Christians know what the difference between right and wrong and what we're supposed to do, you know? And I feel like we... We are just terrible communicators broadly. If you were to tell people which religion cares more about people, Buddhism or Christianity, they would all say Buddhism. Because the truth is, the Jesus that most people see in America, they see either on OAN or Fox News or behind a lectern at the White House or something like that. And they're like, if that's the Jesus that everybody's going up in arms about, then I don't want any part of it. to that, would say, listen to the Bible verses that they're using to get things done. Are they using Jesus's words? Or are they twisting scripture in kind of a weird... you know, funky way. So I'd love for you just to maybe tell us more, like what are some other ways that Christians can resist in a Christ-like fashion, you know, to essentially stand up for our faith? Yeah. Well, one of the things that I've been leaning into over the last many years, and I think you guys will remember this, is that I have been doing a lot of work around race and the American church. And one of my big, my, my own big interests and foci focuses has been learning from non-white, non-male. theologians, pastors, preachers, learning from the black church. I've tried to develop as many relationships and collaborations as I can with people who have had to be in this space that I, as a white guy, am not very familiar with. And then just, I will tell you, you may remember that I came back to faith in a traditionally African American church in Austin. And over the last couple of months, I made the decision that I can't continue serving in the big downtown Austin church where I have been a preacher for many years, that I need to come back to this place where I found faith and learned about justice. And where, mean, just to be honest, you cause I was telling you that this pastor, this priest in Connecticut was super worried about how my sermon was gonna land with his elderly white parishioners. I wanna be back in this space where the sermons are about justice. And people don't have to negotiate, because every time I go into a white church, that's what I have to do, is to try and negotiate a way that they won't be offended about the conversations that Jesus wants us to have. And so, I mean, like one of the biggest, like personal things that's happened for me since the last time I saw you guys is that I'm back in St. James Episcopal Church in East Austin. And, you know, when I'm not on the road, that's going to be where I'm in the pews. And I'm going to stand in solidarity with folks because these are the folks that saved my life and made it possible for me to go out and do this work. Like I'm not even here on the planet without St. James. Episcopal Church. And I will also tell you, because this is one of the things I'm sitting with right now, and I'm trying to figure out how my next book and the next steps kind of figure into this, but a couple of weeks ago there was an elderly man, an older black friend of mine that I've known for 25 years, and he came up to me and he hugged my neck and he asked if I was writing, and I said I'm writing as hard as I can, and he said, good. They are trying to erase us. man. his feeling and the feeling of many of my friends who are people of color is that this administration is trying to erase our history and to reimagine the diversity that is our strength as our great weakness. I was reading today that the, that one of the, black generals who had been recognized for heroism, on the website, the official government website, much of that had been scrubbed and he was being referred to as a DEI hire. And so it feels to me that one of the things that I can do just with this face, you know, when I walk around being white all day is I can walk. back into spaces where my Black brothers and sisters are struggling and just say, I'm here and I want to stand with you and whatever gifts I have and whatever platform I have, this is going to be part of the work of justice that I understand that we are all called to. But you all taught me how to do this. You all taught me that Martin King was not a sociologist or a social worker. He was a black Baptist pastor, and that's why he stood up for righteousness. So that's kind of the thing that I'm feeling at this moment. So that is my place of strength, my place of grace, in all of these interviews that I'm doing. The last question I ask everybody is, where are you finding hope and courage? so Malcolm Foley, who's... My Baylor colleague who has this great book about greed as the basis for racism said, well, yeah, my hope is in the gospel of Jesus Christ. It's like, you know, if we are not supposed to be doing this stuff, then I don't know why we're here, you know? And I talked to Yolanda Pierce, great Black theologian, womanist theologian, and she's like, my hope is in the next generations. You my hope is in these students. that I'm teaching and mentoring, which is also what I'm seeing at Baylor. My James Baldwin class at Baylor, you guys, it's like these 15 kids are going to go out and change the world. And this is not funny. It's sad, but I find myself apologizing to them. Like on a regular basis. It's like, I am so sorry for what we've done to the world. And please, please. There's a Jason Isbell song called Save the World. Where the character the narrator of the song is pleading with his daughter. Please save this world that we messed up so badly So, I don't know that's that's a whole lot of stuff, but also I got in my Jason Isbell quote you glad you're able to do that brother. That was some good uh, strategic you had there and getting that in. was great. You know, we've talked about Christian nationalism a lot on this program obviously and people have, you know, obviously there's a spectrum, right, of what people think about it and how concerned they are with it and we're very concerned with a lot of it and concerned and it's especially it's more prominent displays and more extreme iterations. But I would love for you to kind of, I guess, work through this, the idea of like, Christian nationalism with like the racism that you feel like has been plaguing the church. Like, what is the connection there? Because I think when people hear Christian nationalist or whatever, they might think that's... I'm just thinking of guys from my side. I I'm a conservative and I consider myself a conservative still. And I believe in those principles. And again, enumerating those would be important, right? What are those principles? But, you know, we don't have time for that right now, but it's like I consider myself a conservative. But like when you hear Christian nationalism, people may think, that's made up or, that's like they're just trying to take over everything and make everybody a Christian or act like a Christian. Or people might think, it's not that really just people being Christians. What's wrong with being Christians and a patriot? And we've talked a lot about this, but it's like Christian nationalism feels like, that's something that, you know, I don't know. It just feels like that's something you can say, hey, that's that's really bad. And a lot of people can say that. And then when we bring racism into it, though, they might get a little bit more like, well, you know, I don't really like where you're going with this. Like, I'm not against, I'm not a racist. I'm not a Christian nationalist. And sometimes, or maybe they think I am a Christian nationalist. I'm not a racist. That doesn't mean that they're both the same thing. And I just would love for you to draw out the connections there so that people can say, these things like this Christian nationalist agenda or policies here's where they are displaying racism pretty like pretty significantly and what you're seeing. I'd love for you to make that connection. thank you, Josh. That's such a good question. And I will tell you, like, I feel that I'm pretty conservative in a lot of ways. I'm very comfortable at Baylor, which is, you we got a lot of complaints about woke Baylor during the three years we were doing our programs on racism in the church. And I'm like, yeah, I'm here 35 years now. And this is a deeply Christian place, but however you understand woke. Well, Greg, rumor has it you may be a shepherd for sale. I'm just throwing that out there. yeah, I've had my issues with that human, with that human person. So what I try and do is I put all three of the terms that we kind of are thinking about today together. White Christian nationalism. And, know, as Josh is saying, it's like, you know, somebody can look at that and go, well, I'm white. I mean, can't be helped. You know, that's how I came out. That's how God intended me, you know, as Lady Gaga would say. I was made that way. So I'm white and I don't know what's wrong with being a Christian. You know, I was raised Christian and America is a Christian nation is a thing that we often hear, which is untrue, but inspiring. know, when you start looking at Thomas Jefferson's Bible with all the miracles cut out of it, you're like, yeah, that's just a wisdom text. And that's not a terrible thing, but white Christian and then nationalism. It's like, I love this country. know, James Baldwin and Robert F. Kennedy both said something almost identical, which is that I love this country so much that I am going to criticize it whenever it falls short. Kind of the thing that Dr. King said when he talked about the American church in Letter from Birmingham jail, where he's saying, you know, no one who doesn't love the church as much as I do. would criticize it as much for falling short. So I'm white, I'm a Christian, I love America. But what we're thinking about when we think about with white Christian nationalism is that it's a reactive, and you all have had enough conversations to know all of the things that I'm getting ready to say, but it's a reactive response to the decline of whiteness and of Christianity. and the idea that if we wed Christianity to a political agenda then we can get Christianity back on top. And so like this is apparently my visit with you where I'm going to throw out a bunch of musical references. But there's a U2 song where Bono sings, stop helping God across the road like a little old lady. Nice. does not need our defense. And so when President Trump says, I am going to save Christianity, I'm going to save the church, it is the response of a person who doesn't understand what Christianity and the church actually are. You know, it's not about how much power we have. It's not about how linked we are to the structures of the nation. And one of the things that I often say is that when the church and the state have a baby, it's always born a monster. Because the church doesn't make the nation more Christian. secular powers, that desire to be in charge makes the church less Christian. And so one of the things that I think is really important is for us to understand that first this is not just an American trend. It's happening all over the West. When our friend Robbie Jones and I were in Paris two Christmases ago speaking at the American Cathedral in Paris at Advent, I was telling him about a a campaign sign that I had seen in Paris. And my French is not great, but I knew enough to translate that because it was, you know, it was very simple sign. It was just said, save our culture. And I said, Robbie, what does that mean? Like you're an expert, you study this, you're a sociologist. And he said, whenever you see that, that line in whatever language, it is a white supremacist tell. Because they don't mean save French culture. They mean save white French culture. And so white Christian nationalism is not about opening the door to Mr. Baldwin and Dr. King. You know, it's not about opening the door to Toni Morrison. It is about closing the door to everything that is not us. And it is classic us versus them. And so what we're seeing mostly in this iteration where white Christian nationalism has had a baby with this government is a ton of scapegoating. And however we may feel about certain cultural issues. So for example, I don't like terrorism. I don't like it when people kill other people. But I don't like it when somebody is like pulled out of their house with an eight month, you know, an eight month pregnant wife because the administration doesn't agree with their political stances. And what is so interesting to me right now is that we're finding all of these different scapegoats. Muslims are one of the most powerful scapegoats. You guys probably heard President Trump accusing Senator Chuck Schumer last week of being Palestinian, which in itself is just crazy anti-Semitism. But what he's also showing is that Palestinian is now a bad word in this country. And if you support the Palestinians, then you are on the outs. So what we're seeing is that basically anybody who's not white and Christian, and we could probably expand that and say straight and male. We've got some token white females in this administration, but they are all in service to the white billionaires. I think the biggest thing is what we're looking at is this alliance where Christianity is giving validity to the political choices that are being made in this administration. And to stand up against them is simply just to remind people that, you know, as As we were saying, if it's not love, it's not God. And if we are not standing up for the least of these, when I found out that we were going to be cutting off aid to children who were starving in Africa and in other continents, when I found out that we were going to be cutting out research on infectious diseases, I mean, and I don't know what's next. It could be Medicaid. It could be food stamps. But there is nothing Christian as we understand Christianity in forcing other people to suffer, harming other people. And we could have the debate about whether private charity or government should handle things, but one of the reasons we have government is because it's the only thing big enough. We had wildfires here in Texas when I was driving back from Colorado the other day. I can't get out in front of my house with a garden hose and save my house. You know, we trust government to do the big things that churches and private charities can be a part of, but can't solve by themselves. So, I don't know. That's a big, big thing. Last thing that I did want to reach into, because I said it's not just American and it's also not just Christian. One of the interviews that I did last year was with the Episcopal priest and activist Winnie Varghese, who is one of the great voices for social justice in the Episcopal Church. And her parents are Indian American from the Indian subcontinent. And she said, you know, what we're seeing here in the States is the same thing that's happening in India with Hindu nationalism. And it's a reshaping of the religious message for the people in power. And so, you know, when you look at the Hindu religion, which is, you know, all of the different gods, different colors, lots of arms, some of those gods are powerful and tyrannical, and some of them are gentle and generous. And what Winnie told me is like, this government is leaning into all of the powerful gods who want to grind people under their feet. And I mean that's such an interesting thing to me because it makes me think of if you can turn Jesus into an instrument of destruction then you have completely missed the point of what Christianity is about. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it was good listening to you just kind of unpack all that in ways that I think are easy for people to understand. Because whenever I'm having conversations about Christian nationalism, kind of to Josh's point, you get... Okay, what is it? Is that Christian nationalism? Is this Christian nationalism? You know, and, and, and, and it's just like, sometimes you just get, you know, sort of the, the, the glossy eyes and like, okay, they've stopped listening. But then if you add white Christian nationalism, they don't necessarily listen harder, but they get angrier because they like, I'll give you a really good example. happened about a year ago. had a friend over, white guy. Good guy, went to church with him. I happened to have Anthea Butler's book on the table, White Evangelical Racism. think about Rina, we're getting ready to talk to her or something. I picked it up and showed it to my friend because he was an evangelical too, and he's just like, what the heck is this crap? At first, wouldn't. yeah, that sounds like Russell Moore's story. What is this, what crap? Like, like, is, is he upset because of the first word? Says white? Or is he upset because of the racism? You know, like, and it turned out he was upset because of the white part. He's like, you know, always about race, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, like who wrote this? You know, like, I mean, he didn't know who Antibas was. and, and, and I, but, but I do think that's a bit of a microcosm of like, what most conversations turn into when you say white. Christian nationalism. given that I'm not a white person, so for those that aren't watching on YouTube, I'm a person of color. Like, what goes on kind of in your head or Josh's head whenever like somebody attaches the word white to something, and especially in this context, like Christian nationalism, like do you feel all of a sudden responsible? Is this kind of what they talk about white guilt? know, can I help help me walk through those those emotions because I really don't know. No, that is such a fair question. And so, you know, in the work that I do in the larger church, you know, not, not at Baylor, you know, because at Baylor, I'm a writer and I'm a professor and, some of my writing kind of goes out and does this work. You know, some of the chapters in the book that I was working on in Colorado last week were around these questions of white guilt and white fragility. But I think maybe the thing that I would come down on is one of the racial myths. that I was looking at was the myth of post-racial America. And so when we think about racism in America, first our history classes did a really terrible job with it. And so it's like three sentences. It's like there was slavery, but Lincoln freed the slaves. And then there was the reconstruction and we don't really know what that means. But then there was the civil rights era and Martin had a dream. And then we elected Barack Obama. And so there's this very powerful sense a bunch of white people have, which is that race has been solved and if anything, it has fallen over into the other place. So when we talk about woke-ism and we talk about DEI hires, there is this kind of pendulum swinging thing that happened from our electing a black president. which made it possible for racism to come back out and play. And so when white people hear these things now, when, so for example, the first two years that we did this program at Truett Seminary at Baylor, the big national conference, we called it racism in the white church, and people lost their minds. And just as generously as I can, The Dean of Truett Seminary asked me if we could take white out the last year that we were doing this program because of all the heat that he and people at Baylor were taking. And of course, the only reason to talk about racism is that the white church is the church with power and privilege. know, so, you know, I can talk about racism in the Hispanic church or I can talk about racism in the Asian or Korean church, but those churches don't have the same power and the same privilege and the same, I mean, reluctance to talk about things. Because, know, like, well, you're talking about you, you're black. When you get up in the morning and you look in the mirror, you're black all day long, the same way that Josh and I are white all day long. So here are a couple of things that I think are coming along with that. One of my elderly relatives, and I will not name this person, Because this person is still alive and I love this person But this person knowing that I study race said to me why are there so many black people on television? I am tired of all the black people on television and This will tell you that you know since I come from a southern Baptist family that maybe some of them are just the tiniest bit racist But what this person was saying is I don't feel like we need Black people on television anymore. I think we're done. You know, we elected a Black president twice. And you know, the joke from Jordan Peele's Get Out is, you know, that the father in that show would have voted for him a third time. You know, that's how not racist he is. So I think one of the things that we're facing is this racist myth of post-racial America where it now feels to white people that they are inundated with black people on television. Why are all these black people in commercials? What happened to the days when it was just two white women in a kitchen? Mmm. then I think the other thing that goes along with this, and we may have talked a tiny bit about this a year ago, but 2020 was a pivotal point where people were coming to grips with the tangible dimension of racism in America. And I talked to, I don't know, 40, 50 churches after George Floyd was killed, white churches, white Episcopal dioceses. who were like, I think we finally get it. Like that thing would never have happened to me. You know, it would not have happened to my daughter. It would not have happened to my grandfather. That is a thing that would not happen to a white person ever. And so there was this moment where there was a willingness to kind of think and to reflect on America's racist history. And then, I mean, I am so sad to say this, but it feels to me like so many white people rolled over and went back to sleep. And so what they did was they said, OK, I see it. I see the racism. Can I be done? So one of the people that I work with in the Episcopal Church is an anti-racist activist, Dr. Catherine Meeks. And she is this lovely black grandmother. And she wears terrible ugly brooches, whatever they are, things that you wear on your shoulder. And you're like, what is that? I don't know, but it's cute. And her great charism, her spiritual gift is to walk into a room full of white people. and to say, you congratulate yourself for seeing a racist thing and you think you're done. But anti-racism is not a sprint. It's a marathon. And it goes on and it goes on. And you know from your conversations with Jamar Tisby that recognition is only the very first thing that happens when you want to do any racist work. So it's like, my God, I see it. That's a thing. And then you build relationships and then you start making commitments. But I think that so many white Americans did the minimal amount of work, which was to say that's so horrible what happened to that black man. And then we had the pandemic and our own lives kind of interfered with everything. And now we're in this space where it seems like, and when I was working on my book in Colorado last week, one of my biggest tasks was like a stem to stern revision because I've been working on this book for six years. And so much of what I had written was in a 2020. I'm not going to say dialect because that's not exactly right, but a 2020 context where I felt so hopeful about possibilities. And the book is going to come out in the spring of 2026 in what is not a very hopeful context for anti-racism. So whether we call it white guilt or white fragility or just I mean honestly I think one of the reasons that people oppose the word woke is because the opposite of it is you going back to sleep and the last the last Sunday sermon that Dr. King delivered before he went to Memphis was at Washington National Cathedral and in that like elaborately carved pulpit there, the Canterbury pulpit. And he told the story of Rip Van Winkle. And I hope that our listeners will know that from like a, I don't know, a junior high school lit class, but it's the story Washington Irving wrote about this guy who falls asleep and wakes up 20 years later. He falls asleep in, you he's in a colony, a British colony, and he wakes up and he's in the United States of America. And Dr. King's point, which is why I am unwilling to unclaim the word woke, Dr. King's point was don't sleep through a great revolution. It is so much easier to go back to sleep. And particularly for people who look like me, it costs so much less. And so that I think is where we're kind of landing with white, whether we call it white guilt or white fragility, or just this sense that white people are tired of having to think about this thing, which we don't even actually have to think about. Yeah, I really can empathize with what you're saying. And it is, it's weird because it's like, you know, it feels like there's this huge push and then everything just kind of calmed down and it's like, all right, well, maybe we can go back to the status quo. We're not, it's like not intentional necessarily. But my guess is that some of what's going on, right, has to do with essentially moving back to a place of neutrality or a place of silence. And yeah, it's like going back to this, well, I'm not going to upset the apple cart, you know, there were. And that was a tough time for pastors. mean, it was a tough time for everybody, but I just, speaking from, yeah. the pastors who leaned into MAGA, their churches grew. And I'm not telling you anything, you're a pastor, so. Yes. Well, yeah, it was just such a tough time because you're like, I feel like I have to say something and it's going to cost me. You're you're put into this place where you have to say something and then someone else doesn't say anything. And you're like, why did they get to not say anything? And their church gets to grow. But I say something. And like, it's just this really deep pressure. And I would love for you to kind of lean into that. And how do you help churches see that silence isn't really neutrality, neutrality isn't really possible? What do we do? What does repentance look like in this context? How does a church and the church move forward in the way you're seeing things? Thank you. Thank you so much. So there are a couple of things that I do in churches that I think are useful and they're all around story. So like one of the things you guys know that I do is for many years I've been going into churches and church groups and Episcopal dioceses, almost always white dioceses, and showing films about race and justice. And I try and do that whenever I can with partners who are people of color. So like, know, black theologians, black female theologians, the great Kelly Brown Douglas, who is terrifying to our audiences and often to me, but who speaks, you know, in truth and love, and just also is one of the smartest people I know. So that film, Opportunity, and we may have talked a tiny bit about this last time, but one of the things that it does is it moves people a little bit off their axis. So, you know, when I walk into your space and I say, today, we're to talk about race and justice. You are in your space, whatever that is, you know, like, so your identity, your story, your history. But if we're watching, guess who's coming to dinner or we're watching, you know, Sydney Poitier in anything, honestly, because he's just so damn good. If we're watching Spike Lee's do the right thing or black Klansmen, if we're watching Jordan Peele's get out. then one of the things we can do is we can talk about the characters in the film. And this is what story allows us to do is to inhabit another character's life and another character's moral choices. So like I have shown Guess Who's Coming to Dinner, I don't know how many times, in classrooms and church settings. That's the 1967 film with Catherine Hepburn and Spencer Tracy and Sydney Poitier. And in 1967, it was a radical film. It feels kind of tame to us at this moment. But it does come down to whether or not the father, the great white father, if you will, played by Spencer Tracy, is going to approve his daughter, his white daughter, marrying a black prodigy. Because that was how the screenwriter sort of set up the situation. It's like, the only reason you can't approve of this is because of his skin color. Cause he's like, you know, won seven Nobel peace prizes, you know, or something. And so like, when we talk about it afterward, people can get out of their own way in a sense. So like, it's not like Thanksgiving where you sit down with your crazy uncle Phil and he says all those terrible racist things, you know, because you can't talk about race and religion and politics at the Thanksgiving table and not expect it to go bad. But if you do it from a story context, and this can also work with a book, it's one of the reasons that I wanted to write the Baldwin book and continue to kind of take him into spaces, is that if we can get out of our way a little bit, we can look at the Spencer Tracy character and go, what he's doing is wrong. And everybody in the movie is saying this, and the Roman Catholic priest, who is his best friend, is saying, you have lost yourself. You don't remember what you stood for. So the shared story is a really important thing. But then part of what I try and do, either by partnering with people of color or by bringing in their stories. I don't remember if I told you this story last time, but one of the stories that I often tell to white audiences is about one of the programs we did at Washington National Cathedral, where we did like an annual race and film thing there at the National Cathedral of the Nations. church, so to speak. And I was sitting on stage next to Van Newkirk from the Atlantic Monthly, who is one of my great heroes, I hope a good friend, but one of my great heroes, kind of our today's James Baldwin. And Corva Coleman from NPR was our moderator. We had just shown Do the Right Thing. And I don't believe it's a spoiler 30 some years later to say this is a movie that ends with police violence directed against a young black man. And so after we had watched the movie and we had brought our panel up on stage, Corva turned to me and she asked me, Greg, can you tell us a little bit about your experience with law enforcement? And sadly, I have a lot of it. And Jeannie, my wife always wants me to remember to tell you that I have never been convicted of a crime. Please be aware of that. I'm not out on probation, but as a young man in a small town in the South, I got in a lot of trouble and the police would pull me over almost every weekend and they would take whatever they found in my car as contraband and pour it out in a ditch and send me home. And so like I'm telling stories about this in Washington National Cathedral and 800 mostly white people are laughing because they think it's charming that an old man like myself had these adventures. And then Corva turns to Van who is I'm going to say five eight and slight. He's a tiny person. and like one of the great brains in our, in our country. so Corva turns to Van and she says, Van, could you tell us a little bit about your experience with law enforcement? And Van puts his hands out in front of himself like this. And Corva says, Van, can you tell our audience, mostly white, what you're doing? And he says, I am putting my hands on the steering wheel in plain view so that I don't get killed. and light bulbs over every white head in the cathedral. Because it's a powerful story about difference and about justice and injustice. And like one of the things that I think we have to do, particularly, you know, people who look like me and Josh, is to develop relationships with people so that we can tell those stories and settings where they may not be. So I've got a black musician friend here in Austin. He played with Rare Earth. I just want to celebrate another day of living. He played with Jimi Hendrix. He played with Paul McCartney. He is amazing. He's also a pastor. And when we go out to lunch, every now and then he'll just look across the table at me and he'll say, did you see that? And what he's asking is about a microaggression that in the old days I would not have noticed. And now, thank God, I'm always like, yeah, I saw that. He didn't look you in the eyes when he took your order. Or he didn't even look and see if you needed more iced tea. So I think one of the things that we can do with all of these kind of varieties of narrative is get back to people's humanity and to people's essential faith. I have been in such despair about talking to conservative Christians, even talking out of the Bible, because we were telling that story about that Russell Moore tells about, you know, pastors preaching out of the Beatitudes. And it's like, what is this woke crap? But That experience that I had a couple of weeks ago in Connecticut with those older white Christians who had absolutely no reason to lean into any of these questions about race and justice. Once they started hearing these stories and once they started reflecting on what their core values were. And I also did in my sermon, I quoted, I like had a refrain from Hamilton about seven times. So Hamilton never goes wrong either. But we had like a couple of conversations with parishioners, like one after each of the services, and I know that my priest friend was so nervous, but I also said, Nate, you gotta trust me. Like this, this is my secret weapon. I'm going to walk into that room and be white. And I'm going to tell them why they need to care about these things because of their Christian faith. And, you know, I have been surprised over and over over again, walking into situations where I didn't expect anything to happen. Okay, so last story. Did I tell you guys about Mississippi? I can't remember, but tell us again. Well, thank you. So a couple of times I've been invited by the Episcopal Diocese of Mississippi to come in and talk with their priests about race. And there are a few more appropriate places for that work to happen. So a couple of years ago, I was asked to be the speaker for their clergy conference and the church where we were actually holding the clergy conference. was the church where the three civil rights workers gave their last voting presentation before they drove off into the night and got killed by the Ku Klux Klan. I mean it was just like this is ground zero for Mississippi racism. And I was picked up at the airport in Jackson by one of my seminary colleagues, one of my friends a year behind me or so in seminary. And I'm not going to name him because this is not a particularly happy thing that he said to me, but when he picked me up, he said, don't expect anything to happen this weekend. I'm like, awesome. That's exactly why I came. I want to spend the next like 96 hours in Mississippi where nothing is going to happen. But the thing is, like at the end of that weekend together, the Bishop of Mississippi, the outgoing Bishop of Mississippi, who has been replaced by the way by a black woman, like the first black, I mean, like Bishop of Mississippi, a black woman elected. But the Bishop told a story during his sermon in the closing, like Eucharist. And he said, you know, I was at the Civil Rights Museum in Jackson the other day. And I was looking at like the wall of heroes there, the pictures of all the people who had been part of the civil rights movement in Mississippi. And he said, some of the people there had clerical collars. but not a single one of them was a Mississippi Episcopalian. And he stood there for a second and then he said, it is time and past time for the church in Mississippi to tell the truth about race. And he said, I know we're going to lose members. And that's OK. because this is where God is and this is where the church needs to be. And so every time somebody asks me, do you have hope? I think about Mississippi. Now I think about Connecticut. And you know, not every day is a good day doing this work. You all know this well. I mean, you put out an amazing program and the world just kind of keeps blundering on. But if we believe that spirit is still moving and that God is still creating, you know, there are so many possibilities for the ways that things can change. If we show up and we are strong and courageous, I mean, and just, you know, simply if we act justly, love mercy, walk humbly, not every day is gonna be a good day. But some days, something's gonna happen and the world is gonna shift a little bit. I mean, if I had to ask myself that question that I ask everybody else, where do you have hope? That's where I have hope because as James Baldwin said, I believe that we can do better. That's really good. What's funny is at the end of most of our episodes, Josh asks all of our guests what brings them hope. So it's really cool to kind of hear that you end a lot of your interviews that way. so, yeah. And as you were talking, was thinking to myself like... Jamorah Tisby put in his book, I think it's a color compromise, you know, that the black church exists because the white church exists. And it's like, I love telling other people because then they're just like, what? That doesn't make any sense. And then I'm just like, well, let me explain it to you, you know? And Greg Boyd wrote in his book, not the, I don't think it's the myth of a Christian nation, but the other one, like the myth of something. And he spoke about how... Racial reconciliation is basically spiritual warfare you can see. And I love that because it's so true. It's like, if you really want to do the Lord's work, if you need a sign or you want to be God's instrument, go do racial reconciliation work. Not a lot of people are wanting to work there in the church. So I think everything that you said just really resonated. I bet you're a pretty awesome professor. got to tell you that because I'm like, didn't, you know, I never went to Baylor. I didn't have necessarily the type of career path that would lead me to go to Baylor, but it's like some of the courses that you're teaching at Baylor, I'm like, man, that seems like a really fun course. But, you know, so if your students ever need anybody to sit in for them. and they want to buy me a plane ticket for a day in a hotel and per DM. Yeah, happy to volunteer. How can people read your work that you're doing for Baptist News Global? Well, I mean, the easiest thing is that there's actually a banner on the Baptist Global News site, Baptist News Global, for the interview series. you will, I mean, you both understand because like you're always trying to get guests and like I am, I am leaning into things I'm super excited about. Like I would love to talk to Jasmine Crockett. I would love to talk to some other politicians. got to talk to Colin Allred last fall, who was a house member running for Senator against Ted Cruz and Baylor alum, former NFL football player. It's crazy that an NFL football player who's a Christian didn't win in Texas, but he did not on the wrong side of the party line. But that's a thing that I'm doing. so those interviews come out every week or two. And then I am revising this book for Oxford, which is, I don't even know what to call it. It's huge and it covers 10 like racist myths that go back hundreds and hundreds of years, both in the States and in Western Europe. And I'm looking at theology, I'm looking at law, I'm looking at pop culture, material culture, literature, I mean, all sorts of iterations of these stories. And so that book will be out, I think, next spring and maybe on schedule for us to talk again. And currently it's called White Lies. I think we'll probably change that. think there was another book called White Lies that came out in the last couple of years, because it's a pretty good title. But it's White Lies, 10 Racist Myths That Are Destroying America. and kind of the culmination of all my grant work and all the collaboration and all these interviews and some interviews that were not for publication but just for this book. So, well, thank you for asking. I love that. Well, thanks. Thanks so much, Greg, for stopping by again and hanging out with us. I mean, it's always a pleasure getting to chat with you and just listen to you. mean, to be honest, like, I'm always learning something new whenever you you come up, which is funny. So so like. We did have Robbie Jones on a couple of months ago or something like that. And he brought up James Baldwin. He used a James Baldwin reference. I remember saying, I was like, I had no idea who James Baldwin was until I spoke to Greg Garrett. It was like a year ago. I was like, so your quote reference resonates with me a lot more because I understand where that quote's coming from. Yeah, and Robbie is going to be in my class Thursday afternoon. He's zooming in from DC to talk about both of our favorite Baldwin books, No Name in the Street. That's really awesome. Yeah. So you're always educating us and yeah, we'd love to have you back on even well before your next book comes out. So yeah. Thanks. you guys. Anyway, I can be useful to you and thank you so much for your good work. It's important stuff and it's always just good to see you. Yeah, same. And to our audience, hey, thanks for stopping by. And as always, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care. Okay?