Saving Face and Finding Faith: Aimee Byrd on Church Trauma and Theology

📝 Show Description:

After publishing a critique of biblical gender roles, author Aimee Byrd faced an online smear campaign—led in part by leaders from her own church. In this episode, she joins Will Wright and Josh Burtram to discuss her new book Saving Face, a deeply personal reflection on faith, identity, and healing after religious trauma.

Byrd unpacks how patriarchal church systems often silence women, what it means to rediscover yourself after betrayal, and how theology can be both liberating and weaponized. She also shares how poetry, the Song of Songs, and the face of Christ helped rebuild her spiritual life. From a sit-and-spin memory to misogynistic Facebook groups, this conversation explores the cost of speaking up—and the grace that can follow.

👤 Guest Bio:

Aimee Byrd is an author, speaker, and former podcast co-host known for her work challenging complementarian theology in evangelical circles. Her books include Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, The Sexual Reformation, and Saving Face. A former café owner turned theologian, Byrd writes about women’s roles in the church, spiritual formation, and healing from religious trauma.

📚 Resources & Links:

• Saving Face by Aimee Byrd – savingfacebook.com
• Aimee Byrd’s Website – aimeebyrd.com
• Aimee narrates the audiobook version of Saving Face
• Related book: Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood by Aimee Byrd

Transcript

0:18

Hi there, faithful politics listeners and viewers. If you're joining us on our YouTube channel, guys, thanks for jumping on. If you're joining us on our podcast streams, thanks for listening. This is Josh Bertram. I am your faithful host and I have with us Will Wright, our political host. It's good to see you, Will. Well, you're only human, Josh, and I have that effect on people. Exactly. And was that on your list, by the way? He has a list of responses, Amy, just so you know, so that we can... Yes, exactly. And so, but guys, we are very thankful to have on our program today, Amy Bird. She is an author and speaker known for her work exploring theological topics, particularly concerning women's role within the church. She's authored several books. including recovering from biblical manhood and womanhood, the sexual reformation, and the one we're going to talk to her about today, saving face. Her work often includes critical analysis of traditional interpretations of biblical texts and a call for deeper theological engagement. And as a former coffee cafe owner, that's pretty cool, and uses her skills in her current work. And we are so excited, Amy, to have you on the program with us today. Thanks for joining us. So am I. Thanks for having me on, guys. Hey, quick question. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack you at the top, Was it current cafe owner or? did that in my early 20s. So I'm really curious because I'm a bit of a coffee connoisseur. I roast my own beans, sweet Maria's is my friend. What's your favorite type of coffee? My favorite drink? Okay. I think my favorite coffee drink is an Americano, which is just espresso and hot water, like a double shot of espresso with some hot water in it. Every now and then I like to put some homemade whipping cream, know, whipped cream on top. Yes. Yes. I love that. actually interesting, nothing to do with what we're going to talk about, but Americano that apparently that came from World War II when Americans would come over. Yeah. And they couldn't handle the espresso. And so they would pour water in and if we call it an Americano. So that's kind of interesting. At least that's what I heard. So you can fact check me on that. than another brewed type of coffee, right? And if you want a whole cup, I mean, I do just a plain cappuccino as well. And then if I want to be kind of a little sweet, I think my favorite is to do a mocha cayenne. Mmm, whoa, like cayenne pepper? Yeah, well spicy chocolate, yeah. Well, we're going to have to do a completely different episode to talk about all this coffee stuff, because that is fascinating. But I want to jump right in and get into your book and get into the good stuff that we're looking at. So I'd love to kind of just help you, or not help you, but ask you to introduce your book to our audience. And why did you write it? There is a little bit of a controversy and crisis out of which this was written. And I'd love for you to kind of. Give us the context of that. okay, so Saving Face is my eighth book and I began writing as like a young mom. I did not aspire to be a writer, but I came from a divorced home, my husband came from a divorced home and I think when we got married, I really wanted to be purposeful about having a good marriage and a Christian, strong Christian marriage and raising our kids and the faith. And so I did a lot of reading to try to learn more because I just wasn't finding any outlet in the church really as a thinking woman. And I had a lot of theological vigor. Like I wanted to talk about God and learn more about him. And I had a lot of excitement for that, but I couldn't find where I fit in church and where I could have these conversations. And so I was in a complementarian church, which is where, you know, I guess the nice way of describing it is benevolent male leadership. And so I think that had something to do at first I thought was just, okay, well, when they see men with theological vigor, they want to invest in them because they could be potential leaders. And they don't really know what to do with women in that sense. And all the resources for us was like how to be a mom and how to serve our husbands. so I thought, well, maybe if I wrote a book, it could be like a tool. for women to see how theology is just as important for us, what we believe about God affects our everyday lives, and maybe this would be a way to get women talking. And lo and behold, it did. The book came in as something that women were interested in. I started getting asked to do speaking engagements. The next thing you know, I was asked to co-host this podcast with an academic in the Presbyterian world and a PCA Presbyterian pastor. I was kind of the woman at the table and the lay person at the table and we had a really good dynamic. The podcast got pretty popular and I started writing more books. Each book was kind of another layer of the onion. As I addressed this, people are like, yeah, women should care about theology. This is great. We like this woman. And then I started getting into the women's resources. They're not really good. Why aren't they? yeah, that's a good point too, Amy. You know, let's talk about that. And I get invited to talk about that all over the place. And I'm finding many, many other me's in these churches. know, women who are dying for this kind of conversation and growth and connection, but feeling like when they go to their leadership that they're like causing trouble or being like looked at like they've mold on their face or something, you know. So I see that, okay, this is a real thing and it's not just at my church. And it's not just me, you know, like this is, I was all over the country and out in Canada and Puerto Rico and just going all over the place, seeing this happening. And so I started writing more about like the dynamics between men and women in church, a book called, Can't We Be Friends? And people started questioning me then, Amy's making a case for siblingship in church. And you know, I think that she's saying that men and women should have, candlelight dinners with other people's spouses. This kind of thing. Like, okay, what? And then I just started to really critique as I'm going into these different spaces, these different conferences, I start to say, you know what? I want to write a real critique of this whole movement called biblical manhood and womanhood. I'm seeing some huge Trinitarian theological air in it. And then that's applied to women's roles, which is strange. I'm seeing really just unbiblical teaching and cherry picking out of the Bible. I'm more like to look at the Bible as a biblical theological approach. know, like what's the whole Bible saying here? But how does it unfold as we're learning instead of just picking out certain scriptures and taking them out of context and building a whole doctrine on it, you know? So I thought I'm going to write a book that addresses this, but I want it to be an invitation. in good company here, Amy. We appreciate that as well. So I wanted it to be not only a critique from the inside, but an invitation. So the book was called Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood in an answer to kind of the main book that came out from this movement over 30 years ago called Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood. And in it, I talked about, let's look at the way the male voice and the female voice is used in scripture. You know, and what can we learn from that? What's being told in that story? Let's look at what discipleship actually is and how it happens and where it's happening today. And let's go back to this great honor and privilege of brothers and sisters in the church and what should that dynamic look like? And I expected some pushback, definitely. I expected a lot of critique and I, you know, I'm quoting from this book and from other people that a lot of people like, so. I'm trying to do it in respectful way, but I know that when you name names, people don't like that either. So a large group of leaders started harassing me and calling me names and calling ahead of my speaking engagements saying, beware of this woman coming to speak, guard your families and your churches. So they're causing all this disruption where I'm about to speak everywhere. They start punishing the people that host me by harassing them and going after their pastors online. They had a whole Facebook group. was like over 1,100 people in this group. And it was led by leaders in my own denomination. And it was full of leaders in adjacent denominations and even academics. And the name calling was terrible. Like, you know, I'm the great whore of Babylon and I'm Jezebel and... you why doesn't she just shut up and make me a sandwich, you know? And they're sharing misogynistic quotes by the church fathers and saying, why can't we go back to this? And they're picking apart my looks in my videos saying like, she looks butch, you know, and her femininity is being withdrawn here in this video. Just crazy. And then they're plotting. They're plotting to destroy my Amazon page with, you know, sabotage it with bad reviews without having to buy more than one copy of the book. They're trying to plot ways to press charges against me and my church and my leaders in my church. And you guys, the worst part about it was that I found out one of my own elders was in this group. One of my elders from my church who I thought I was friends with, whom I'm good friends with his wife, who is actually the assigned elder to my family, to Shepherd, us. And he wasn't commenting as far as saying mean things about me, but these threads would have over 100 comments in them, and they were from morning to night. He would pop in and answer a theological question or a question about church government, and then let himself out the back door. know what I mean? So clearly he's lurking, and yet doing nothing to defend me, doing nothing to inform me. I was driving to one of these retreats where they called ahead, and I'm... don't know what kind of controversy I'm driving into. There's gonna be all this supervision of me now because they need to see if I really am dangerous. And these men joked around on this website that maybe we will have a little meetup of our own at the same time at this retreat center. So I didn't even know I might possibly run into some of these guys. And I don't know how harmful they are if they're willing to do all this. So it was devastating. And I went through a two year process. Yeah. I went through a two year process of just trying to confront this in my denomination through proper church work. And that was horrible. Horrible. Every step of the way was more traumatic. You know, I found myself at a presbytery meeting. It's like a regional meeting of leaders where I'm referred to as that lady. You know, jokes were made about me from the man up front, but I'm not allowed to speak. You know, there's laughing and... totally my work is being misrepresented, this kind of stuff. So it was, I lost friends, I lost my job at the podcast, on that website, which was very conservative. You know, I worked there for seven years and people who I thought were my friends, you one of them posted this article, he was the editor and he said, it was the week my book came out and he said, there are some concerned people about this book and this writing. and we have some questions that we'd like you to answer. He posts this, like publishes this, nine questions for Amy Bird to answer by these unnamed men. So I answered the first one, which was ridiculous, about natural law and the nature of men and women and authority and submission. And then I said, I asked around, got some advice, should I continue to answer these questions? Because I feel like, OK, I can answer these questions, but have they ever done this to a man? They could have interviewed me. They could have done something a lot better to address their concerns. Some of those questions had nothing to do with my writing. They were about marriage. Some of them just read the book and you'll get the answer or you're misrepresenting what's written in the book, you know? So I didn't answer them. Then the board pressured me to answer them. The unnamed board. I know who's on the board, you know? And so when I didn't answer them, they said that they would be graceful upon my exit. Anyway, the whole process was very traumatic. I had no idea about trauma. You know, I didn't know. I thought I was thick-skinned. thought, you know, this is ridiculous. I thought I could logically figure this stuff out and move on. But Your Body Keeps the Score has the book, popular book is titled. So I've had to do a lot of work through that. And Saving Face is my second book in working through that. And or third actually, but Saving Face is a lot different than my other writing. I think this is the book that I've been really wanting to write the whole time. And it took going through all this to get to it, to get back to myself. And my writing style is different in it. It's more contemplative. It's more creative. It's less doctrinal, even though it's, I think, deeply theological. And this book is, mean, like the elevator pitch is that it's a reflection on the divine face and the meaning that we get from the faces of others as we're trying to find our own. And so that is the long and the short of how I wrote the book. It's really a turning into myself, turning back to myself this time and saying, okay, well, I could say these are the bad guys. What they did is incredibly cruel. You know, and they did that in the name of God. And you know, there's something evil about that. I can say all that and I could say they're the oppressors and I'm the victim. However, I had to ask myself like what attracted me to a church like that in the first place? You know, into a denomination like that in the first place. How did I not see what was really going on behind the curtains? How did I not see that this system of book of church order that they have set up is harmful to the marginalized and protecting power? in a very unhealthy way. And so that's the work in this book too. Think, yeah, thank you for sharing that. That was super powerful, really impactful. I mean, I'm just like, want to, I want to go punch something after you, you, you saying that and I'm trying, I'm trying to repress my, toxic masculinity a little bit, but you know, pray for me. But, you know, like I, I, I really think more stories like yours need to be told because, you know, you read books, you know, like Beth Barr and others, and they write these stories and you're just like, what the, you know, like what the heck is going on here? like we, Josh and I just finished talking to David Gushy not too long ago, and we were kind of just talking about all the craziness and politics and whatnot today. I had said something to him. was like, I feel like Christianity doesn't have to be this hard. And because we were talking about one way that the Bible was being used to drive home a point and I'm the political host of the show. like, Josh is on the theology, religion, you know, like I read the Robert's rule of order book for fun. like, I'm just not, I'm not the theology guy. like, don't, I would be the bad guy to make a theological argument for or against, you know, women pastors or LGBTQ or whatever. I'm just like, just let's just treat people like nice, you know, you know, women want to be pastors, they can be pastors because we interviewed a woman pastor and to hear her story about when she meets with congregants, especially congregants that are men that they all request to not meet in her office, like they have to meet in a public place. And she's like, I do it because this is what I feel called to do, but like, these are the things that are different than when men, know, are in places of power and whatnot. you know, I'd love for you to just maybe talk about what was sort of like the chef's kiss, if you will, that led you to kind of start on this journey when you're just, you know, you're reading all the stuff, you're getting kind of pumped up, you're really excited about the stuff you're learning, you know. And then all of a sudden you reach a roadblock. like, what was that first kind of roadblock? You mean when I first began writing or? When he first started to advocate for women's roles in the church. It's interesting because like I said at first, I was really encouraged and I never aimed to do this, but in my reading, you know, I've loved reading so much and I was reading a lot of academic works thinking, man, I mean, this stuff is accessible to everyone now. Like anyone can get these books and read them and there's so many treasures and I was finding them so helpful in research and I ended up with my writing. really became like a bridge, I think, to kind of close that gap between academia and the regular person because I felt really strongly about, know, I don't think that especially Christian academia exists for them to talk amongst themselves, you know. The whole point is it's supposed to trickle down for us, for everybody else. And so I really tried to make that work more interesting and more relevant and not, you know, to show how it is, you know. Yes. And instead of using an academic voice, use my voice. And so that put me in a lot of different spaces. I gained a lot of academic friends and so a lot of them, I think, respected my work and would encourage me. But then there is, there's this wall that you can't go past. And like you're saying with this woman pastor, you know, I wrote, can't we be friends after, like this was so many things that happened, but this last straw was, I was at a dinner. and I was in Philadelphia and it was, you know, at night. Well, it was late when we got there, but turned night while we were there. You know, my husband's home watching the kids while I'm away for this weekend thing. Some people there at this dinner had their spouses with them and some didn't. And it just so turned out that at the end of the night, there were two doors, a front door and a back door, and everybody's walking out different doors to get to where they parked. I had to park in an alley. blocks down the road because there was no parking anywhere near the restaurant. Everything was taken. And at this point it's night, it's raining, and I'm starting to think about my safety, right, in the city. And I walk out with two Christian leaders, men, and both of them, you know, one of them offered me his umbrella to take. That was it. Nobody offered me a ride to my car. And I just thought, I'm walking down this alley, the sketchy alley in the rain at night, and my husband would be so mad if he knew these men didn't give me a ride, you know? He knew these men. And to think it's all because of appearances, really. I don't think that they thought we were gonna break out into an affair going two blocks down the road, you know? Really, it has to do more with appearances, but it's, you know, that... That whole like men and women can't be friends thing, this whole like we can't be seen alone with a woman anywhere. And to me, it really showed how, okay, all this talk about male benevolent leadership is bull crap, you know? Because you won't even risk your own reputation for the safety of your sister. You're gonna protect yourself over her. So don't give me that anymore, you know what I mean? And so like physically, like, just being a woman in my body caused all kinds of problems that I was trying to write into. And I was trying to like reason with people, come on. Anyway, shouldn't Christians be the one who could actually holistically look at a human being without over sexualizing them? Yeah. And then academically or I don't know if academically is the right word, but you know, participating in that way, there was such a... level, I thought that they were just fringe in our denomination who thought like women shouldn't even teach Sunday school, women shouldn't teach, you know, a guy above 13 years old and all this wacky stuff. But I found not only was it much, much more prevalent, but it also was enabled by the system itself. And, you know, those who maybe don't disagree, I mean, maybe don't agree. completely enable it anyway. So I became a real threat in speaking into that and that made me dangerous. And so at first I was really offended by this language that I'm dangerous. It seems ridiculous to me. Pretty happy-go-person and people don't have to agree with what I say. And I was at that time, I was merely writing about discipleship and spiritual formation. I was not writing cases for women to be pastors or elders or things like that. I was really abiding by our confessions in my church. But I was pointing out that, you know, as disciples, are women to do less than men? What does that look like? And this is what I was really evaluating in my writing. And that's what was making me be called dangerous. And at this point in my life, I've embraced that, that label and you the troublemaker label. so badly wanted people to like me and wanted to, you know, be reasonable and not want the pastor in my church to think, my gosh, know, Amy's a troublemaker. But I am a troublemaker. I'm a troublemaker. So those are a couple. examples, but there's many many many many more. I'm sure there are, you know, makes me think Jesus was also a troublemaker, was he not? He caused some trouble for the established religious elite and systems. And I think it's fascinating, your title, you know, we've been talking about the context and everything, but this idea of saving face, because obviously it seems like there's double entendre there where the in one sense right and triple entendre maybe even quadruple so right you have you're trying to save your reputation right you mentioned appearances they were trying to save save face and yet there's this idea of getting your identity attacked erased corrupted right just people smearing a smear campaign on you and the shock to your identity and then how Jesus as the face that truly saves. Now, and I would love to hear what you mean by that. I mean, I have all sorts of ideas and I know our audience does, but how is impact for our audience? How is Jesus the face that saves? And how does this compare, contrast is a better word with the saving face that we normally see in the church. right. Okay, let me think about where to start with this answer because there's so many ways that I could go. And I think I wanna start with a novel that I read that I talk about in the beginning of the book that stuck with me for, I read it in my early 20s and it was C.S. Lewis's Till We Have Faces. And I loved this novel. I've been calling it my favorite novel ever since and it's a retelling of the myth of Cupid and Psyche. was so impacted by it, but I thought in my foreword is, know what, I need to go back and read that again. I've been saying this is my favorite novel for like 20 something years now. And I went and reread it and it all the more affirmed my love for that book and that story. And I think that he really gets to it, what you're asking. And so we have the main character Orwall, who is Psyche's sister. throughout the book, she's telling the story, which is fascinating that C.S. Lewis can narrate a book as a woman, as a man, so well. so Orwell is angry with the gods. And so she is writing this book of complaints against the gods, the whole book long. And you know, her position in life, she's ugly. She doesn't get to be with the one that she loves. She's treated cruelly as a child. but she does love Psyche, her beautiful sister, and she protects her. And so you hear this whole story and really she doesn't understand love at all. And you're starting to see that she is manipulating people with her emotions and love for her is more about like consuming, right? And she doesn't get it. Well, at the end of her life, she has this vision and it's the end of the novel. And you know, there's all kinds of drama that happens in the novel, but she in this vision is stripped naked. and brought before the gods, the council of the gods. And she's face to face with them, naked with her book of complaints. And they invite her to read her book of complaints. And she's like, finally, you know, this is the moment that she's been waiting for all of her life. And all of sudden her book seems smaller than she remembered it. And she opens it up and it looks like the writing is kind of scratchy and angry. And she's like, okay, I'm gonna read this. And she starts reading it. And as she's reading it and reading it and reading it, she realizes that she's saying the same thing over and over and over as the pages go on. And so she's interrupted by the gods and they say, are you finished? And she says, yes. And she realizes that her complaint was the answer and that finally here she is naked. before the gods and she says something like, you know, how can we expect the gods to answer us? How can we expect them to face us until we have faces? And so this whole persona that she's built up her whole life of goodness and what she thought goodness was and being what she thought goodness was and showing that to others and convincing herself that that's who she is, all fell. and that was all persona. It was a mask that she built over her face. And now she realizes she doesn't have a face as she's before the gods. And so I just found that to be such a powerful illustration of our own lives because, know, we spend, you know, some psychologists say like the first half of your life building this kind of persona of who you think you're supposed to be, who you want to be, who you think others want you to be. and you start convincing yourself, this is who I am actually. And then something happens in your life and usually much further along and it disrupts you. And then you realize the persona, the mask, hopefully, you know? And then you start doing that inner work really to get to the things that you've been burying and repressing about who you are. looking at that more as information. You know, and being able to ask yourself some really hard questions and do some, you know, like Young calls it shadow work. So this book is a lot of that kind of inner examination. I open the chapters with storied memory where I'm going back to early Amy and telling these memories and why do I remember it this way? Why has it stuck with me? Why am I impacted this way? Why did I harm that person? I can't believe it. You know, I never looked at that, that I could do something so cruel. You know, just looking back at these things, know, memories from my parents' divorce and how that affected me. All that came up again, you know, when I went through this church trauma because in your body, you start feeling those same things that you felt in other times in your life. And so now was the time. That was the time to do that kind of work. I share journaling. And some of the journaling is really wrestling and praying to God. And I shared like excerpts from that in the book and I combined that with like biblical teaching. So it's an interesting genre at work there. I was in another interview today where the host told me that in the book I... exegete the Bible and I exegete Amy. And I thought, and he said, I think that's the work that we all are called to do. And I thought, wow, that was a really neat way of putting it. So you're right. Saving face does lead to Jesus being the saving face. The church is saving face in the idiom, the way that it's used as an idiom. And the church has a major persona problem right now and needs to do its work. And so saving face can also be a verb in a way that we can do that work, you know, and help one another find our faces. think that's really beautiful. And I'm curious about sort of like your inner strength. Because we've spoken to a lot of folks on the show, and not just a show, just in public. mean, Sarah McCammon wrote a whole book about being an ex-vangelical. She kind of helped unpack what that really means. And between Josh and I, we know plenty of folks that are deconstructing. doing all that kind of stuff. I'm like, I'm curious why, why continue the fight? Like why, why do you still believe? I guess is maybe the, maybe the question and it's reminisced like Kristen Dumay wrote a, a sub stack a couple months ago, I think called like why I still believe or something like that. And I thought it was, it was a really brilliant, you know, like, like blog. And I think I think every Bible believing person in today's America should write why I still believe. And we should take those and put them in a book and send it off to Brazos Press so they can market it for us. then like we, sorry, if that's in a Brazos Press book, apologies, Andervan. Yeah. Nah, that's funny. But I'm curious about your own personal belief, convictions. Why are you even still in this game when it would just be so much easier to just be like, you know what? It's easier to be an atheist or whatever. Yeah, I I think that it's harder to be an atheist because God won't let go of me, you know, and that is part of the inner work and the inner struggle. I have found the beauty. I have found the beauty and I talk about that in Saving Face as well. And one book that deeply ministered to me through the really traumatic disillusionment was The Song of Songs. And you know, I would shock people by saying that at first. wrote a whole book about that called The Hope in Our Scars. Here you have, you know, right in the middle of the Bible, you have this book that is full of allegory, full of metaphor. It's song. Is it paused for you? Amy, are you still there? that's so weird. all of a sudden your video froze. The last thing we heard was a song of Psalms. Okay, yeah, so people get shocked to hear that the Song of Songs, How in the World, is that a book that helped you to get through abuse and trauma. And that's where the beauty is. Here you have in the middle of the Bible, you have this book that is full of allegory, poetry, images, and just emotion, right? And you have this Christ figure and the man and the woman representing all his people. And more than that, she represents the dwelling place of God, you know, the temple. And we see maybe something more about anthropology and the symbolism of our bodies in this book. And it's not through presuppositional statements, it's not through didactic teaching, but here you have the woman's voice is dominant. in this book, in scripture, in a patriarchal context, right? And she is bold and immodest and she comes on the scene saying what she wants. You know, she wants to get in to the inner chambers with her lover. And there are scenes though, like night scenes where she can't find her lover. Where is he? She names abuse that happens to her from her brothers and from the gatekeepers. So I just thought that, know, here, some of the things she says, I'm like, you can say that? You can say that to God? And then some of the things that he's saying to her, like, you know, come out from the clefts of the rock, let me see your face, let me hear your voice, because your face is lovely and your voice is sweet. You know, I was hearing the opposite in the church, but here is a figure of the incarnate Christ. luring me out from the rock. And I just thought, that's Christ's words to me. They were so healing. You know, there's a line where it's like, you know, getting to the wedding part of the song and he looks at her, he beholds her and he says, you are all together beautiful, my love. There is no spot in you. That song, I mean, The song of songs is so evangelical, but to me it is also, this is what it's all about. It's not that we're supposed to scare people from hell, know, save them from hell in that kind of way. We are supposed to show them how God delights in us, in Jesus Christ. And that is what the song does so beautifully. And it even says the ugly parts. of what's happening in our life, even with leaders in the church. So things like that, having friends to talk to about that, but God shows me himself. And thankfully it's way bigger than what I thought before. I think being in that denomination for so long, I was really starting to get convinced that truth was this doctrinal matter and that we need to be certain. of every, know, precise in our theology and the more certain and precise we are, the closer we get to God. But then what I found is all these like theological elites in my denomination were so immature, so emotionally immature, so spiritually immature. I mean, they would even say things about me like, thy loins. Birds coming to speak here or something. Gird thy loins? Who talks like that, you know? there were sermons preached against me. There were blogs about me being the feminist leader of the army, you know, and all this crap. So it was so dehumanizing. And I realized what that view of sanctification, it is dehumanizing. It's like that whole brain on a stick thing. And so I'm learning that I was looking at the outside of things. and that we really have to be made ready for reality. We need to be ready for truth. And I think that's what this lifetime is really about, is preparing us, God is preparing us for the ultimate blessing to see his face in Christ. And he gives us this lifetime to help one another develop our faces and develop our taste for truth. And you think, you know, that is the blessing, like the blessing in numbers is the Lord bless you, the Lord keep you, the Lord's face shine upon you. What does that mean? You know, that's what we want so bad, right? We come into this world looking for a face. We're looking for a face, delighting in our face so that we know that we're loved, that we matter. We start to learn who we are through the faces of others. But ultimately we come into this world looking for God's face. God's face beholding our face and delighting in our face and saying, you are all together beautiful, my love. There is no spot in you. And he could say that because of the work of Jesus Christ. I think that's really, really powerful. And it makes me think of my own journey, which is very different than yours, but just thinking about like coming and planting a church and this kind of call I felt to kind of leave some of the things that I was finding a lot of safety in particularly. a denomination I was in. And was really hard because it was a denomination that I still am connected to in many ways and I love so many of the people and didn't have like, it wasn't like, they're not good, I'm leaving. That's not, it was just kind of my theology had shifted and I had to be honest about it. And I just remember going through this process like in the last five years where It is, you know, every single insecurity I've had has surfaced in this, in this tension and the feeling of existential threat and the feeling of, I'm going to be a failure. This isn't going to work. And this is just going to... And how much your fear takes over and... and how much you don't see things correctly. You start seeing them in distorted ways and you start seeing people in distorted ways. And you have to really like work hard to even get to a place where you're, I mean, it's very, it starts to make you feel like you're not, like disorienting is the word that I'm looking for. very disorienting and then trying to find myself back in a place where of orientation towards God and it's like it just hit me really hard when you're like yeah I still believe because God it would be much harder to be an atheist like God would he just won't let go of me and I feel the exact same way it was interesting we had a guy on Jonathan Rausch who is he knew Tim Keller he knew think he was following some of the other, Russell Moore, some of the other guys even that we've talked to here in the program and he's an atheist, Jewish gay atheist, that's like, that's what he said and he was like, yeah I used to think that Christians were like just unintelligent and uneducated. He's like... But I don't think that at all. They just somehow were able to make a connection with the spiritual that I couldn't make. And just when he said that, I was so impressed by the genuineness and the authenticity of that statement because I feel very much the same way. I just feel like I don't know why I have this connection to God. I really truly don't. I would love to say that everyone can have the connection with God. That's what I believe. That's what I've tried to do. But I don't know why I do and my neighbor doesn't, know, quote unquote, right? I don't know. I don't know. And it's like those moments where we put up a mirror to ourselves, everything's difficult. And that's one of the metaphors you use is this imagery of a mirror. And I'd love for you to talk about that a little bit, like... How does the imagery and the metaphor of a mirror help us see ourselves accurately and help us in this process of our spiritual journey and recovering our identity in Christ? Yeah, we actually, know, scientists have found that, neurobiologists have found that we have something they call mirror neurons. And so there are neurons working in me. if we were to meet for coffee and you were to come in, the body language and the expressions on your face, right away I'm going to start reading. You my right brain is able to, like this kind of goes along with it, but my right brain is already. finding out before the words come out of your mouth whether or not you're happy to see me. And so we have these mirror neurons and they say, we need this to survive in a culture, but like you have your hand on your mouth right now. That might make me want to put my hand on my mouth. Or when Will took a drink, I had a strong urge to take a drink. Like I was thirsty all of a sudden. Those are mirror neurons. And we know the whole yawn phenomenon as well, right? Mirror neurons. And so it's like the very thing that might annoy us sometimes, like being copied, is actually what is built into us to do so that we can connect with one another. And I can see how we need that for culture to build and to thrive. And so I use that and take it to the whole idea of faces being a mirror. And so I'm going to learn so much about myself from you. and the way that you see me, the way that you interact with me. And interestingly, some theologians like St. Clara of Assisi, is that how you say it? I can't remember now. She talks about Jesus Christ being an eternal mirror, which is so interesting because it's an encounter. when Jesus encounters people, as it's recorded in the New Testament, it is like he is holding up a mirror. and they finally see who they are. And that's how it's going to be too. I think on that day when we behold him, we're going to see ourselves through the eyes of Jesus Christ. And that is so amazing. So I think that part of our vocation as Christians is to help one another to see who they are through the eyes of Jesus Christ, through my eyes, because Jesus and me, will see Will in a different way than through you, Josh. And so in that way, like if the three of us were friends, you get to learn a different part of Will just through my interactions with him and my seeing of him than you would if I wasn't his friend. That's so fascinating to me. So there's a lot of elements and I work with scripture some to where the mirror metaphor is used in some really powerful ways. But I think we're all wanting that. We kind of know. We're looking into the mirror all the time and saying, like, who am I? How do you see me? Because I can't see my own face. And even when I look in a mirror, it's one dimensional, two dimensional, right? I can't see the side of it and behind it and around it. I can't see the curve in my own nose. But you can. You know, I'm going to address something kind of disturbing that you said just a little while ago. You said the three of us were not friends. And I want to dig into that a little bit. I know we just met, but I mean, it just seems really harsh, you know? Like, I want to be friends with you. You know what I meant. I definitely feel friendly with you guys after having met you. But in a continuing friendship, like Josh would learn a lot more about you through his friendship with me too. If the three of us were in a continuing friendship. And then like someone even said that, I forget who it was now, but it was about like the death of somebody. think it was C.S. Lewis, I'm pretty sure it was C.S. Lewis. That he will not get to know his friend through that other friend anymore. know, like, it reduces other people too, to lose that one friendship. Yeah, you know, kind of in your journeys and your fight, what have you found makes the biggest difference or strategies or techniques? Meaning, you're out there, you're telling your story, other women are getting inspired by it. You know, it's all towards, I don't know, maybe the... It's all towards a greater effort of, let's just treat women how they were treated in the Bible. And hey, it's actually pretty good. Women were actually viewed as leaders in their community and whatnot. And why is it that there's a disconnect with the church? in this effort that you're pursuing, what have you found has been helpful for you to... Either one, keep going or two, get your message across. Because I'm sure that there's probably a woman listening to this now saying everything Amy says resonates with me, but I feel like I'm just on a hamster wheel and my gears are just turning and nothing's really changing. Well, there's lots of things. One is some really great friendships, you know, where we can just be raw and real about things and not pretend, you know, not pretend that everything's okay. And, you know, I have some friendships where we even do that while we hike and even happy hour hike, which is fabulous and therapeutic. And it's almost like a ritual because I feel like, you you walk down, you know, you're in this beautiful view, you know. And we're sharing our life stories and our, our unmet longings and you know, all the things. And then we walk back down the mountain and it's, like, you leave it there, you know, on the mountain and we hold each other's stories though. And so I think being able to share your story, having people that will hold it with you, the story transforms in that way, cause they weave together is super important. I've become a lot less rigid in, in my faith and that has, I'm so thankful for that, you know, through this process of disillusionment. God is much bigger and I don't need to be certain. And that was a faux security and I need to address those issues about myself, you know? And to be humbled so publicly is horrible and, you know, should never have happened like that. But it's also given me some some different freedoms to just say, just doesn't matter that this stuff that they're talking about is so stupid, you know? And so that, I mean, we're still in a church. I'm not sure we found the church yet, but I think it's important. Sometimes I don't wanna go and you know what? I don't beat myself up. I think sometimes you need to step away and God's okay because... I'm not injuring him in doing that, you know? So I've just lightened up in those ways, but I still have really hard times. Journaling has been extremely important to me through this and extremely helpful. Having friends that can imagine for me when I can't for myself, like when you're saying when you want to give up, when you don't, you how do you hold on to your faith? You sometimes it's the faith of my friends that can imagine for me and remind me. So there's lots of things like that, but I don't want to say it like, now I've arrived, you know, because there's still a lot going on, know, a going on. I end the book with kind of like a big fat, I don't know in some areas. And I think that that's healthy and mature. And it's a, it's a new posture that I find neat because God can show up there and surprise me. And that's another reason why I haven't walked away from the faith is because I want those things that he has to offer so much. I mean, there's just several statements that you've made in this conversation that have been really striking to me. I mentioned one in my previous question. what you just talked about with like not being less rigid about your faith, the freedom that's come with that. Mm-hmm. even to the point where I'm assuming it would have used to be a kind of a guilty feeling if you miss church or something like that, or there would be like a really intense sense of like you're a sinful person or you're not doing the right thing or whatever it may be. And I totally understand that. And I totally feel that in my own life. And this rigidity that you are letting go of is really good, I think, overall. I wonder, I guess my challenge when I'm thinking about it, this is the challenge I've been facing, because I feel the same way of being less rigid. I was like, it's like, can't save this person. mean, I don't know what's going to save that person. I can't do it. And yet, Yeah, it's not up to me. And yet, I guess the question that I'm having is like, what is up to me? Like, what is my role? Like when you're looking and you've written this book, it's powerful testimony, right? You're looking at the problems with the church right now, our persona issue. We have to do some work. You mentioned that, like, there's a lot of issues that we, that the church is facing right now. And it always has, but this is our moment, right? So we have to face what we're facing. And so it's like, what is our job? What is our role with even bringing this faith to people and being a representative to people? because I will find myself being like, I just too, not too gracious, but it's like, am I just too like, is it that I'm not willing to challenge? Mm-hmm. Is that is it that I'm not willing to be embarrassed or I'm not willing to have uncomfortable conversations? Is that what's really am I hiding behind a graciousness or lack of rigidity? And again, that's my question. I'm not saying that's your question. I yeah, so just love to get your response. I know we're coming to the end of our conversation. I'd to get your response on that. And then, yeah, we'll just have a couple more short questions. Yeah, so I think that's the work that every person needs to do. You know, one of the questions I ask in the book is, you know, what story do you tell yourself about who God is and what he wants from you? And we're telling ourselves the story, but we don't even realize it. And so you're asking really good questions. And I think we all need to do that. And I don't think that we will come to the answer to that question and then, you know, we'll be given a test. And then we'll see how, you know, I don't think it goes like that. I think this is something that we just keep struggling with over and over. And then we get these discoveries that are fabulous, but we also get this, like I have some unlearning to do, you know? And, you know, and that's repentance, right? That's repentance. And so I've embraced unlearning, which before I just wanted to be so sure. So these are... I this is the work that church should be nurturing for us to do. it's, I mean, I think in most churches, it's not a safe place to do that. But I think we have to do this work on ourselves. If we don't do this work on ourselves, what good are we to anyone else? Because all the stuff we're stuffing down is coming out. We just don't see it, you know? And it's coming out and it's harming other people. and ourselves. So I think that, you we're called to do this work on ourselves so that we can grow in our understanding of who God is and the more, like in our relationships that we can help in that way, like, can I draw more of Josh out of Josh, you know? And I think that's what our job, you know, part of our vocation is as friends, face to face before one another. is that there is an encounter there. And that encounter is to awaken the other person. And I think that there is a blessing there. There's a blessing of God awakening me in this encounter to bless you because he exists. And so I don't know, I really feel a strong sense too and just like loving your people. And that will help you in that area. But I don't have one concrete answer. I have a whole convoluted book that I wrote of me doing that work. Way more than good enough. That's really good. You know, what kind of stories would you want to hear? And maybe even in some of your pre, know, the pre-reading that people have done, what kind of stories do you want to hear that would let you know, this book, this work is accomplishing what I set it out to do? I mean, I love to hear personally how it affects people and I really am hearing from the pre-readers just how the stories, the memories and the stories that I tell really provoked them to do that for themselves too. Like it provoked a memory of their own or something like that. But what I would really love to hear is people reading this book together and meeting in a group because I feel like that's where it would be most powerful is if you can start having a container in your friendships where you can do that and where you can share your stories more, where maybe you will come with a memory this week and you know, wonder why I wanted to write this one down. Like we don't think that our stories are that interesting, but they're fascinating. They're fascinating. Like who would have thought that me sitting on a sit and spin would have any interest to it, but like in the last podcast I was in, interviewed in today, like we had a whole 15 minutes out of that because he was so fascinated by what that memory did, you know, ignited in him. And I just thought that is so cool. You know, like I love that. And he helped me understand myself more. It is his understanding and reaction from my memory, you know? So, to be able to do that, those kinds of things, I've had some opportunities to do that. kind of in a group and that's just powerful stuff, man. So I would love to hear people say that they're doing that and then to hear about like what comes out of it. That's so cool. How can people, is there a particular place you want them to get the book? I know it comes out on April 9th, which is when we're planning to, April 8th. It's a Tuesday. And so we're going to plan to post right around there. But where would you like people to get it? And anywhere. the place. It's, you know, on Amazon and all the major, you know, book outlets. Savingfacebook.com is a landing place for my book. I also have amybird.com where you can just kind of see what I'm doing on sub stack and interviews and other things like that. And I also narrate the audio book. So, you know, that is something else to throw out. That is great. And so what do you have? What else do you have that you're working on? What's next? You know, writing this book has made me want to go back to school. So I am taking some counseling courses right now, which has been awesome. I'm loving it. And I actually have class in two hours with a major presentation due. But yeah, so I'm doing that right now and I'm still writing on my sub stack and I don't know what's next. I have some ideas percolating in my head, but I'm trying to. figure out where to concentrate my time. Well, that is awesome. And whatever is next, we'll have to have you on again to talk about your next project. We would really love that. Well, that would be great. Thanks so much for having me on today. I really enjoyed the conversation. yeah same here amy you're so great and to our friends who have joined us guys thank you so much for jumping on the program today and spending some time with us this has been amy bird make sure that you check out her book we're going to be putting links to the website and getting the book yes there it is i love that cover and we really appreciate you guys jumping in joining us make sure you share this with someone that you feel like will benefit from this conversation and needs to read this book. And until next time, guys, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. God bless. I like that. Yeah. Are you hitting stop? I'm sorry.