Climbing the Seven Mountains: How Dominion Theology Is Reshaping America with Dr. Matthew Boedy

The Seven Mountain Mandate—a concept calling for Christian dominance over key spheres of American life like government, education, media, and family—has quietly gained traction in right-wing political and religious circles. But what does this strategy really entail, and why should it concern us today?

In this episode, we sit down with Dr. Matthew Boedy, professor of rhetoric and composition at the University of North Georgia, to unpack the origins, theology, and political aspirations behind the Seven Mountain Mandate. Drawing connections between this fringe theology and mainstream conservative figures like Charlie Kirk and Turning Point USA, Boedy explains how the language of spiritual warfare has morphed into a battle plan for cultural and political takeover.

We explore how this movement intersects with Christian nationalism, its ties to authoritarianism, and the implications for LGBTQ rights, religious minorities, and American democracy itself. Whether you’ve heard of the Seven Mountain Mandate or not, this conversation sheds light on a growing influence shaping faith and politics in America.

Guest Bio:
Dr. Matthew Boedy is a professor of rhetoric and composition at the University of North Georgia and a leading voice analyzing the intersection of religion, politics, and extremism in the United States. He is the author of The Seven Mountains Mandate: Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy, where he traces the history and influence of dominion theology across modern conservative movements.

Resources & Links:
📖 The Seven Mountains Mandate: Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy by Matthew Boedy — Available from Westminster John Knox Press (40% off code: 7MCAST): https://www.wjkbooks.com/Products/0664269214/the-seven-mountains-mandate.aspx

Follow Matthew Boedy on X (Twitter): @MatthewBoedy

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. I am your political host, Will Wright, and I'm joined by your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? And today we have with us Dr. Matthew Bodie. He is a professor of rhetoric and composition at the University of North Georgia and a leading voice analyzing the intersection of religion, politics, and extremism in America. He's got a book that's coming out. The Seven Mountains Mandate, exposing the dangerous plan to Christianize America and destroy democracy. The ability also uncovers how a fringe, but growing theological movement seeks to gain control over key areas of culture influence to establish a Christian theocracy in the US. And this audience is no stranger to the Seven Mountain Mandate, and we're just so glad to have you on the show. Thanks for being here. for inviting me. I'm happy to talk about it. I do have to ask, is there a requirement for all people that study the Seven Mountains mandate to be called Matthew? You know, there might be. I have, if he's to count my extended family, I have seven Mathews and I'm of course number one. So, you know, it is a common name, but some people spell it with one T, but they're just wrong. Do you all have a favorite gospel? I I prefer John, but that's just me. No, no, the Logups thing, man, with the rhetoric. it. Why did you write a book about the Seven Mountain Mandate? Give us the backstory. You know, I started writing about the subject of the book Charlie Kirk and turning point you would say back in 2018 and When he converted if you will to Christian nationalism I recognized it right away his language that was using and what he was talking about because I've I've grown up hearing that in different ways. So when he talked about the seven areas of cultural influence, looked, wait a I've heard that before. So the seven mountains thing was sort of a bigger theme to his organization and he's pushed that. And so writing about Charlie Kirk and then pushing the Christian nationalism, that just fell right into my lane. And so that's why I decided to write a book about it. So before you hearing Charlie Kirk use that kind of language, had you ever really thought that much about Christian nationalism or the influences that it has on our modern day politics? man. I mean, I grew up evangelical, so I've heard things like this from, we'll just say, the political conservatives out there, and it's been named different things over the years. I mean, I understood what he was saying because I understood terms like theocracy and dominionism and things like that. I personally had not heard of the seven mountains until it came into being in, you know, if you will, in 2016, 2017, but the idea of this thing I've known for a while. So that's kind of say when I heard what he was saying, I knew what he was saying. I knew where it was coming from. So I have a long history with it. How did you react when you first heard him talking about it using this kind of familiar language? why do you feel like, you know, so like when we think about cultural engagement from Christians, you know, I've heard this defended in a lot of ways. People are overreacting. It's really about, you know, Christian influence in the sense that, you know, people are going to just, they're going to share Christ with others. They're going to get into these different areas and basically be salt like leaven or leaven, right? Working through the dough and being underground, sharing faith. And then the more people that know Jesus, so the more people that have genuine experience and authentic faith, then that's going to affect. And so that's kind of how I've heard it talked about, but it seems like There's something else going on here, something that's much more nefarious. So kind of explain that to us. What's the distinction? I think for me, I will say came of age in my 20s, in the 2000s, where we have a lot of talk about Veggie Tales and Christian movies and parallel entertainment, if you will, to Hollywood. And they wanted to create something that would balance that out, or you could choose the Christian area and not do the other thing. And I bring that up because what is happening with the Seven Mountains mandate to me is not creating a Christian alternative to all the other seven areas. It is about taking back those seven areas. So we think about influencing the culture, whether that's politically or religiously or media and entertainment. We're talking about trying to perhaps make things more Christian and perhaps, as you said, evangelize people in such a way as they would become Christian and they would influence people. But the Seven Mountains Mandate is a minority movement. They're not interested or at least we'll say their top goal is not evangelism. They don't want a mass movement of, we'll say, majority Christians. They're interested in Christians leading on top of those mountains, but what they're suggesting of the Course is that Christians should take these areas back, not by a majority of evangelism, but by institutional control. So this is why the seven areas, or seven different institutions, if you will, of our culture that they want to have. So when we say influencing the culture versus taking control of the culture, and I think there There are moments in the history of the last 50 years where that has moved from one to the other. There are certainly though people who are still interested in an influence and in the salt and light part of it. But I think what distinguishes the Seven Mountains mandate is the idea that the church has not done enough to take back these cultures. the last thing I will say is about the mountain of religion. The idea is that from the Seven Mountains mandate is that the church has been taken over by Satan. It's one of the seven mountains. suggest that that has happened. And their answer is that we have not done enough. We have not done our citizenship. We have not taken the church outside the four walls. So their idea is the church should be more than just doing gospel things. You know what I really like about your book? We've had Matthew Taylor on the show a number of times just to talk about the Seven Mountains and Andre Gagné and others. Each of them, I think, brings something to the conversation. What I love about what your book brings to the conversation is is you really spell out those mountains. Your chapters are basically the mountain of education, the mountain of government, mountain of religion, so on and so forth. I'd love for you to maybe give us an example. You'd already used a little bit of the religion mountain, but give us an example of where we see this type of influence from each of these mountains in today's news or environment. Sure. You know, I think that the mountain of education is really a good example of that. So we have in our country a history of private schools and Christian schools and doing their own thing and not taking federal funding, for example, and creating their own schools. So, you know, around the time that vouchers started becoming bigger, it was initially about allowing a few poor schools or students that weren't being served to take some money and go to private schools. But now the vouchers are allowing students to who've never been to a public school who've never set foot in there who never saw its badness to take state money and go to vouchers. And I think that this this is a two-pronged attack on the mountain of education. One is to defund public schools. But then two you think okay, they're just gonna defund it. They're gonna end it. But no, they also then want to fill that void with things like the 1776 Commission from President Trump's first term and more patriotic. education. They want to put back into the public school curriculum things that they want, some Christian, some patriotic things, and not just give money to private schools. So when I say retake the mountain of education, it is not just taking your kids out of public school because they're secular and they're bad. It is also going back in there and suggesting we need to remake them from the ground up. And vouchers are a huge part of that. But also part of that is the book discussion, we'll say book bans or book debate, the curriculum. in terms of K through 12 and what state legislators want to do and what you can't say and can say. But also it is about divisive concepts. Those laws that we have one here in Georgia about what you can teach and what you cannot teach. So there's a wide effort to go back into the public schools and to remake it in a Christian manner and also take money out of it to go fund private schools. and I'm curious on your thoughts about, this, the seven mountain mandate because I, mean, personally, I think the, the labeling of it is a little deceptive because, a mandate like to me just, just sounds different than like, a war plan or attack plan. that's what we're calling it now. you know, like it's, it's different because. everything that you're saying, it's like, it's part of the plan, part of the strategy. We're going to do vouchers, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. And it has a lot of remnants of project blitz, this state by state, small laboratories of like, let's see if we can get 10 commandments on walls and license plates and stuff like that. can you maybe just talk a little bit more about, is it like... a mandate that all churches basically have to follow? Or is it something different? Like I was trying to explain it more like a battle plan. Like people are just, hey, they recognize what this is. we've got to conquer that one, that one, that one. Yeah, so go ahead. if you think about the early years of conservative, religious conservative action and politics, it was about influencing. And there were some titles of some books like Bill Bright, The Campus Crusade Guy, his book from the 80s is about spiritual war zones. And so we have this spiritual battle going on. And I think once we moved into we'll say Lance Wallnau version of The Seven Mountains, and he's the guy that came up with the metaphor, the spiritual warfare has been moved to spiritual victory. We can claim victory over these war zones. So when you think about mandate, it is a religious mandate from God saying that the kingdom of God is here now, we just have to act on it. So the mandate is already there, it's already present. It's the thing that it is not about persuasion or influence or things like that is of course persuading Christians to act on it, but the mandate is already there. I think that makes the difference between, if you will, the Seven Mountains mandate today and previous versions of Christian nationalism before that. That we, some of the people, especially in the mountain of education, talk about retaking or claiming land or claiming territory. Like we should take them. We just have to take them or going to a school board and saying I'm a Christian and you should Pledge allegiance to God here and if you don't we're gonna vote you out that that's sort of like We already own this land or we already own this territory. We already own this domain domain We're just gonna act upon it I think that's the definition of the mandate the idea that there are seven areas that we should take back and that God has has told us to take them back because he wants to prepare a America as a special nation. think that that is the idea. There are many different versions of America as a Christian nation throughout its history, both left and right, but this particular one suggests, of course, that we're both reclaiming our history and also suggesting that it is preparing a future that prepares America for Jesus' return. So the mandate is sort of a reading of different verses about the kingdom of God, that it's here now and we just have to act upon it. So, you know, I think about Jesus, the passage in Matthew 28, where Jesus says, all dominion in heaven and on earth is given to me. And so essentially, and I would, I even preach this, I would hear this, where it's like, hey, when you go out there to make disciples, you essentially have authority to make disciples. Now, what that means, you know, that's, you know, that's up for... debate. Yeah, I mean, I used to kind of think of it as some kind of like spiritual, like, I don't know, I don't want to say hocus pocus because that's not what I thought of it as. But like, hey, you're going to make this claim, you're going to go out there in boldness and then this is going to happen because of your faith, because of what you're doing. you use which again, I don't I'd have to look at that passage again, because like when I'm thinking about Jesus dominion as a pastor, I never thought this means that we should take everything over and force people to be Christians. But I get this sense like this idea of reclaiming something, the language that is being used, like what historical assumptions and narratives are being drawn upon in that and like... Like is it biblical? Are they going to biblical passages or is it just, hey, here are some prophets. Here's what they said. Here's just where this came from. Like what exactly are they reclaiming? Like what's going on with that? I think they're reclaiming the idea that colonial America, 1776, the founding of America was a Christian founding. There's different things they cite about the founding fathers and Bible-believing Christians, and that our laws, our constitution are based upon the Bible and really bad history there. But also I think that there is this, I want to use the phrase cultural consensus, because I think it's a phrase that Francis Schaeffer used to use, and like that was his goal, that there was a Christian consensus. You're not necessarily forcing everybody to be Christian. You're not interested in discipleship or conversion, but you are interested in this, we'll say, overall consensus that we are a Christian nation, that our laws or culture and our institutions should reflect that. And so that could mean people in power making that so, but it does not mean a majority of the people in the nation are converted into Christianity. It certainly does not mean the same thing for, you know, other Christian religions. And I think so it means taking us back to a history, but It also means in some manners, seeing America as the prophets saw Israel in the Old Testament. And so one of the verses that Charlie Kirk quotes a lot is in Jeremiah, where he talks about the Israelites being exiled and they were supposed to seek the prosperity of the place that they're in. I forget the chapter and verse, but it's in Jeremiah. He changes that to we should demand the prosperity of the nation and that when you seek the prosperity of the nation, your prosperity will go up. And he uses prosperity not so much in an economic sense there, but in a moral sense. So if you think about then the idea of a nation that America is a Christian nation and and I want to specifically add That it is not about you mentioned the Matthew verse right the the spiritual authority of Jesus to make disciples that is focused on the Individual that you go out and convert individual people perhaps at a mass event But you convert individual people the seven mountains mandate is an institutional national Mandate it is not about converting individual people to go influence. It is about taking over institutions. So the idea of nations or nationhood or nation boundaries and what makes a nation, is it a Christian nation or the Christian principles, that very much is what they're going after. You know, the other thing I really enjoyed about your book, is probably one of the first books I think I've read on seven-bound mandate, Christian nationalism, adjacent type topics that really kind of... Doug Bohr into the TPUSA Charlie Cook connection. I can only imagine, you know, it's based on your prior writings and expertise, but I'd love for you just to maybe unpack that a little bit more because I found that just really, really fascinating. Whoa. If you don't know who Charles Kirk is, he's the founder and president of Turning Point USA, which is described sometimes as a college group that he goes after college students and goes on campus and has these debate with them. And that's certainly true. It has expanded rapidly and widely since 2020 or 2019, which is around the time that he converted, I say, to Christian nationalism. He was not, in fact, into this, in fact was against it through 2012 when he founded turning point USA as a high school student out of Illinois up to about 2018-2019 and he met Pastor Rob McCoy So to suggest that he is now Christian nationalist and he's using turning point to further that goal Means that he has made turning point into the indispensable group for the seven mountains He's putting his millions of dollars into those seven areas. So we have the college thing They have more high school chapters now than they have college chapters. So that is the mountain of education, obviously He has Turning Point Action, which is their political endorsement rally. They support candidates there, so that's obviously the mountain of government. They have a Turning Point News called Frontlines, which is their mountain of media. They have Benny Johnson, who is their chief meme officer about the mountain of entertainment. Turning Point USA Faith, which is the most important thing for your audience, which is their outreach, if you want to call it that, to churches and congregations and to pastors. And it's particularly to pastors. I went to a Turning Point USA Faith pastor's summit two weeks ago here in Gainesville at a megachurch called Free Chapel led by Jensen Franklin, which is one of Trump's early evangelical advisories board members. And so that Turning Point Faith is about taking the politics back into the church in one of their mottos that they repeated at that it was it's not political, it's biblical. And they very much don't want to make it a political thing. They want to say it's a Bible thing. And they talk about different issues that apply there, but they really want to connect with pastors and their congregants. And they have, if you think about Turning Point USA and the campus chapters that they have, like I said, they have many across the America. They have these same type of chapters in churches. So Turning Point USA is not just a college organization. It is not just Charlie Kirk on campus debating liberal students. It has grown into, I don't know what the price tag is, but Turning Point USA itself is$100 million and Turning Point Action is different. But they have money to burn and they've been burning it in all seven of these mountains. That's pretty wild. I'm curious if at some of these events, because we did interview a guy that he said he was BFFs with, Charlie Kirk, Bryce Eddy. And nice enough guy, disagreed on a ton of stuff. But he was kind of giving us sort of the inside of this TPUSA action thing they had shortly after he attended. And I'm curious, like, so. They don't say it's political, it's biblical, which sounds a lot like what I've heard in other sermons and other folks that were like, I'm not going to tell you who to vote for. But you should vote for the pro-life, pro-gun, pro whatever issue. And then of course, it's going to be like the Republican, right? Yeah. So is there other ways that they kind of use? subtle or clever language because I mean I don't even know why they do this because some churches don't even like care you know like and they haven't really prosecuted a Johnson amendment case and who knows how long so yeah so I'd love for you just maybe just unpack a little bit more about how how folks were receiving that you said it was at a church probably with a bunch of that they were at, Free Chapel of Charismatic Gents of Franklin, is in that regard. so he's, Charlie Kirk and Turning Point have been focusing their attention on that segment of Christianity. So they do have a lot of people in that area. And I think that one of the things they try to do is ignore the things that... divide them so they don't necessarily talk about in times and people that disagree on post-millennial versus pre-millennial and they also Want to talk about issues that unite them. So the Lucas miles is a pastor from Indiana. He is now the head of Turning Point USA faith and in his spiel if you will at the event that I went to he had people recite the Apostles Creed What do think? That happens every day in churches. And yet, while after that, he talked about different political issues that people who unite around the Apostles Creed should also unite around. So when I say that they want churches to do more than the gospel, they're not just adding to the gospel, if you will, and adding to evangelism. They're suggesting the gospel includes all these other issues. So it's not really gospel plus, but they're suggesting that the gospel is a national political thing, not just an individual evangelistic thing. So when they talk about saving individuals, of course, and they also talk about saving nations. So they take this rhetoric that we all know and really believe in and easily, seamlessly translated into a political discussion. So they go back to the, it's not politics and biblical. So now you're saying, we don't have to get... tagged with being political. We don't have to be tagged with being politically correct because we're just talking about the Bible. It's really a fascinating rhetorical thing that Charlie Kirk and he does it well. He's really good at what he does, no doubt. And so I went to this event at the pastor's summit. So the first night they had the house worship band at Free Chapel and they were singing worship songs and he comes out to talk and give his idea. And so it was just a seamless transition between worshiping God, talking about sin and righteousness and praising things that he does to talking specifically about things that are wrong in America and how Christians should stand up and fix those things. The Singles thing was just amazing to me. And then of course the next couple days had different speakers. They talked about digital media and they talked about religious broadcasting, all the different areas that we've laid out here. And each night started with a worship service, a worship song. Who led worship? Do you remember? gotcha. I don't know, 12 campuses now, the house man at Free Chapel is really cool. well no, he's done turning point USA events. He travels around, but mean Free Chapel has their own thing. I mean, they're the Hillsong of America, so whatever. There you go. Yeah. So the Seven Mountain mandate, It seems like it's intersecting and interacting, right, with all these secular movements, maybe even populist political trends. how do you see it interacting with things like nationalism, authoritarianism? Like, how is it? Are they just buddies? Is it like... nationalism and authoritarianism or like their secular version of what they are trying, know, are feeling like they need to do with Christianity. What's the connection there? I think that movements in Hungary and Russia, particularly, I'm not an expert, but they use the church in similar ways to what is happening in America now. And the church is not just an arm of that movement, it is the soul, the spiritual. power of their movement, even though it is totalitarian and autocratic, as you say. So Donald Trump comes along and recognizes the power of that, right? His first evangelical advisory board was filled with these charismatic, that is theological, not just personality-wise, leaders because they were leading a movement that was named, you know, the New Apostolic Reformation that Matthew Taylor talks about. And so, he saw that he could use them. I'm not suggesting Donald Trump is a Christian, but he saw that he could use them for his own ends. And that, I think, the relationship. They're allowing themselves to be used because he gives them what they want. We talk about Supreme Court justice, but it's made more broader than that. And they also allow him to operate with a, I don't know, I mean, I wouldn't call it a evangelical faith, but he talks in languages that they understand enough to see that he's with us, even though he's not one of us. And I think that that is the connection there. It is not necessarily a secular movement. But the autocratic and the totalitarian movements in Hungary and Russia have a religious aspect or at least a cultural aspect of returning us to a purer culture or a better culture or a culture that did not have these degenerates in them. And I'm kind of doing a Putin Putin thing there. But that is in some manners what's happening in America. How was the seven-month mandate separate from Christian nationalism? Or are they the same? I call the mandate as sort of a strategy of Christian nationalism. know, Christian nationalism can be very much broader. It's an ideology. There's different ways of testing how far you're willing to go with it. But the seven mountain mandate is a strategy to implement Christian nationalism. It is obviously these seven areas and how you do the seven areas. Some groups have been doing two or three at a time. You think about the Heritage Foundation and Project 2025, that is one mountain. But there are other mountains. them all at the same time is to me what Turning Point and Charlie Kirk is doing. Throughout the history of the Mandate Movement, we'll just say it dates back to the 70s, they have been tried to do these different areas. Education and government come up a lot and it started in the church, but these other areas have tried at different times. And so Charlie Kirk, I think when he converted to this and Rob McCoy convinced him that it was the thing to do, I think he saw it as a tremendous business opportunity. He certainly believes in I'm not suggesting it is not that. But at the same time, it is also a tremendous opportunity to expand Turning Point from its roots in education. So, Kristin Asim is a strategy. It is a strategy Charlie Kirk is using. It is a strategy that he was taught by Lance Wallnau, who calls himself a futurist, a strategist. And that's what his job is, is to give us a vision of what could be, and people latch onto that. Now, I want to talk a little bit about just universally accepted terms for what you just described because your book addresses Simon Monde's mandate. We've heard the term New Apostolic Reformation. There's seven spheres of influence. There's a lot of terms I know that our audience has probably heard on this particular subject. Seven Mountain Mandate that you're talking about, the same as the New Apostolic Reformation. Then follow-up question would be, if we had Charlie Kirk in the show, you're more than welcome to come on if you're watching me. We asked him about this, would he be confused about the Seven Mountain Mandate and that people are saying that's what he's doing? He would deny that he was doing it. I'll start with your second question. He has said through his spokesperson that he cannot identify the seven areas, which is kind of funny because again, there are documents and planning and donor documents where he says, we want to invest in these seven areas. And famously, he said that President Trump is the first president to understand these seven areas. So I think he recognizes the negative associations that we have with Christian nationalism and dominionism. So your first question was, is it similar or akin to the NAR? And yes, exactly. mean, Peter Wagner, who created the NAR, was a advocate of this. He was convinced to be an advocate of it by people like Lance Wallnau and other people who kind of started it before that. And I want to say it's kind of an iffy history, but then that's what I wanted to do in the book is to trace out. the history of these mountains and how they all came to be centered on or collected in Turning Point, USA. So you think about Lance Wallnau and meeting Lauren Cunningham in 2000, who Lauren was the head of YWAM Youth with a Mission. And he had this vision with Bill Bright about these seven areas. And that seven areas were not divinely inspired. They had come from other places. They're listed in textbooks. Abraham Kuyper across the pond in Europe came up with these spears of influence. So it was out there. It was known. And they listed these for themselves. So it has a collection of history or links all the way back to Kuiper. But what Matthew Taylor pointed out is this network of apostles and prophets that Peter Wagner started added to it by suggesting that there was a spiritual warfare that was going on and that we had already won. I think that's what makes, I don't know, I call Charlie Kirk the third generation of it. So if Lance Wallnau and Peter Wagner are the second generation and Bill Bright and Lauren Kernigham the first generation, there's a from the first to the third. And it's much more, victory is ours, victory is already done, and also they've been losing ever since then. So, Charlie Kirk has had to ratchet up the rhetoric about good and evil, about the end times, about every election being the end of the world, to get people to go along with him. That was not necessarily the case, or not as bad, if you will, in the first generation. So that's so interesting to me because you hit on this idea of eschatology, right? Theological jargon for end times, ideas of what's going to happen when the world comes to an end, when God essentially, you know, stops, you know, the world as it is and makes something else. And everyone, I guess at some level, has some kind of eschatology if they think about it, or, you know, they don't know how the world is going to end, but everyone probably has a assumption it will end at some point, whether it's in billions of years and when there's like, you know, heat death or when, you know, Jesus comes back and they think that's going to be next year. meteor in 2028 or whatever? yes, they're waiting for that meteor. And so the question I have is like, what role does eschatology play in this? Is it an engine that drives this? And how does it drive the motivations and what's going on? metaphor is very correct there. It's the engine that drives this. So, know, I said I grew up evangelical. every now and then caught Jack Van Ippie on TV. You familiar with Jack Van Ippie? Goes on TV, quotes the Bible a lot. He says, this is the end times. These are events that are happening in Revelation. They're happening now. And his wife's right next to him. And she's saying, oh my God, you're so correct. And Jack Van Ippie is or was, he died, premillennial dispensationalist. This is the end of the world. know it's coming and we know it's here and therefore we should evangelize people." And I bring that up because I wanted to contrast that with Charlie Kirk and what he's doing. Charlie Kirk does not talk about the end times a whole lot. I can't remember exactly, you know, one time that he actually has. But what he is doing is both Jack Van Ipbee saying the end of the world is coming and we should be motivated to act. And he mocks the people whom he says, the end of the world is happening we should do nothing. should just, you know, Christians just let it happen. He says, no you should act. But He is promoting, whether implicitly or explicitly at times, that idea that the end of the world is not going to be filled with tribulation for Christians, it's not going to be filled with attacks on Christians or the church, that it's going to be filled with victory for the church. This is, in some manners, the goal of the Seven Mountains of Manatee, when they retake all the seven mountains. So the idea is that the end of the world is kind of... I would say the word iffy right there, but he doesn't want you to go either way. So at this pastor summit, he knows he's talking to a bunch of pastors who are pre-millennial, who are perhaps dispensationalist, but are definitely not in his idea of post-millennial or the victory has happened now. Or if they see victory, it's about spiritual victory, it's about evangelism, things like that. It's not about political. between pre and post just for our audience? yeah, my basic definition is that in a pre-millennial society, the end of the world happens with persecution to Christians and that Jesus would then come back and then there'll be a thousand year reign of Jesus. Post-millennial, it's kind of iffy, but that Jesus come, that we are promoting or creating that thousand year reign now and that at some point when it's good enough, if you will, Jesus will come back and reign. So the post-millennial... Yeah, I'm saying post-millennial, yeah. Yeah. So the idea is one is it ends badly and one is it ends good, if you will, or victoriously. So he is suggesting the victorious thing because he wants people to act to gain electoral power or other power and he's suggesting we should take back all these mountains. So go back to Jack Van Ip, right? He is in the pre-millennial, the world's gonna end. But his idea of media and how we should use media and how we should talk about entertainment and how we should talk about the Bible as this urgency, that's exactly what Charlie Kirk is doing just from a different theological perspective. And I think that Charlie Kirk understands his audience well enough to know that they are theologically with Jack Vandepe, but they want to be, if you will, with him, with Charlie Kirk. And he says that directly. There's a minority of people that agree with us, but there's a majority of people who agree with us in private, but won't say it in public, and I urge you to act publicly. And he is suggesting that they should do that, and when they do that, they will be victorious. The victory they talk about is not individual, evangelistic, or spiritual. victory. It is about, I'll say, biblical victory, which where the Bible becomes the Christian consensus in America. So when you say like pre or post millennial, that tight? I'm not the religious one. Is that tied to like the rapture? Yeah, right. So we think about the rapture as the moment where Christians are taken from the earth, right? Where there's no longer any of us here. We think about the Left Behind movies where people are left behind and they have to see the fallout, the destruction, all things like that. That is a premillennial idea of the end of the world. in in post-millennialism, there is no rapture. There's no taking away. There is a sudden perhaps or slow-moving victory where the Christians become the ruler or the kingdom of God now appears both spiritually and physically on earth and that's when Jesus will come back. Charlie Kirk is obviously not the first person to believe that. It had some legs or some roots in the social gospel which Charlie Kirk is against. It has some legs in the history of America. At the same time there is this fundamentalist line about pre-millennial dispensationalism. Having some idea of what those two things are I don't think a of people teach or read about dispensationalism anymore, but they had this idea, as you just said, there's a rapture and it happens. And of course, the Left Behind movies made it all that popular. Yeah, I thank you for clarifying because it's really important because I've got, let me see, I've got this book here. It's called How to Profit from the Coming Rapture. I need to know exactly. I need to adjust my business strategy, you know, if they're doing something different now. So I am curious, though, about so at this this summit, tons of pastors, faith leaders. Like what was like what was your sense about their acceptance to what was being said and or aiming, they were clapping, they were, you know, rallying. I mean, know, pastors can be a little not visually showing emotion, but they're wise. I heard a bunch of female voices going, amen, a lot, you know. No, no, you don't go to these things unless you already agree with them, which was sort of the, you know, he wants to expand his market, expand the people, but at the same time, you know, the people they invited obviously had some attraction to it already. Do you think a lot of the faith leaders or pastors he spoke to would understand what the seven mountain mandate is? I wouldn't think so. I do think it's out there and I think there's polling on people that believe in it. It certainly has roots in the Charismatics. It has made entrance, if you will, into the Southern Baptist Convention. There are people in it that believe it, but it is certainly a minority movement in the Southern Baptist. Outside of those two groups, no, I would not suggest that it is well known, which is one of the reasons for writing the book, is that I don't think people will understand who Charlie Kirk is, but also I don't think they understand this broader strategy that we say is fringe. But at the same time, there's someone who was appearing nightly on Fox News who is espousing it, is not just unknown charismatic leaders. Yeah, yeah, I definitely agree with you. I I had never even really heard of it. And then I started hearing of it in the last, you five years and through some guys here. And I mean, I had heard of the idea of seven mountains before, but I never heard of the seven mountain mandate in the same sense. And I never had a negative feeling about the seven mountains before. I just kind of had heard, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. You divide the culture, you want Christian influence, just like a Muslim would want Muslim. if you think about it, started with a missionary organization with your Lauren Cunningham. He implemented it in his group. became a thing throughout his, and so you go into a foreign culture and you want to figure out how best to spread the gospel. You look at these seven areas. Yeah. so mean, it's, know, there's nothing wrong with strategic, you know, planning and things like that, even for Christians. I mean, there's a very, you know, in my mind, the issue is not so much, hey, we want to get the message out there. We want to get people like exposed to the gospel, to be arguing for its truth, all that, and let it compete in the marketplace of ideas. The issue seems to be this kind of wholesale takeover. and then what, I guess. And I mean, I could guess, but my question is like things, let's say family, like a sphere of family. Like I have a traditional view of family. I always have, but I also now have friends and people I love that are in the LGBTQ community and are much more sensitive to it. I see it in a more complex way. And so now it's like, okay, so let's take something like the family. Like how does this movement and mandate envision an ideal family unit? And what are they gonna, like what are the implications for families that don't fit that mold that they have? Do we know? I mean, what is the end game necessarily like in terms of legislation? in terms of any of this stuff. mean, I guess why should we be concerned about it that it's like a nefarious kind of thing? I think it's nefarious because it claims to be something that it's not. It claims to be an influence operation. It claims to be a Christians just want to be a part of their nation and influence their culture. It is not that. And specifically, this is a good example on the mountain of family. We have both at the legislative, we'll say legal area, right? They want to overturn Ogreville, which, you know, legalized gay marriage and return us to a state where that was not accepted. And then also, Turning Point has taken action against certain people and tried to target certain people, people who are gay or gay marriage people, to make them feel that they should not participate in our culture. They want to silence those voices. So it is both a legal, legislative action, but it is also, I will say, a broader cultural action to only have that Christian consensus at play and to not hear from anyone else. And this applies both to, if you Well, all the people you just mentioned, but also non-Christian religions. How do those religions fit into a Christian nationalism picture? We talk about Judeo-Christian and it kind of silences the Judo part. But also it is about having this consensus. So you can maybe make consensus with those people who share your moral values, but at the same time, Charlie Kirk mentions that with Jews and Muslims, but at the same time suggesting we should close our borders because of the, you know, invasion of different people. So I think that it's still unclear of what the end game is other than silencing voices that don't agree with you, passing legislation to make that so, and then also suggesting that there is a historical... mandate for this, that we should go back to what we were before. And I think that those three things connect well. And then the last thing I'll say is all the mountains are connected. So obviously the mountain of government influences the mountain family. And they will say the mountain of religion is the most important because you're trying to convince Christians to be in the other mountains. But they're all connected. And this is why Turning Point is really important because they're doing all seven at this time. So, you know, there's been groups that done a couple of them, as I said before, but Turning Point is suggesting that we need all seven of them And I think if I remember correctly, I think it was Peter Wagner who said his goal, his dream was to conquer all seven at the same time. So, just a, so if I'm thinking about this, because again, what I want to do, like, so for a lot of my friends and even myself to hear, you know, even an earlier version of myself, to hear that, you know, we want Christians, Christian takeover of these areas so that we can honor God, so that we can have a country that honors God. I wouldn't have seen that. or an earlier version as an issue, like as an, you know, before my life. And then, but I think what's created the issue, right, is the way in which it's applied, where essentially it'll be like, well, we're going to essentially have a theocracy kind of law, where if you're not Christian, again, either you're second class citizen, or you are maybe deported, or something like along those lines, or if you're... homosexual not only is it like you can't marry, we're revoking that sense of marriage and even that, like I know this is controversial, but I go back and forth because I have a different view of marriage and I have a definition of marriage that I have internally, but then I would never want to say that a couple couldn't get together, they couldn't be together and make their life around each other. Like I would never want anything to go that far and yet it sounds like that's a real Yeah. They can't even be in a contractual relationship with each other. They might have to hide their homosexuality or whatever it is they might have to say. Is that what we're talking about here? That it gets to the point where they are essentially criminalizing homosexuality and things like that once again? mean, there many precedents. or amiens overturned, and that surely could be one of them. And I want to say that one of the themes throughout me looking at the history of the Seven Mountains mandate is they have consistently said, have compromised too much, and so we've lost too much. And so Charlie Kirk comes on the stage and is like, yeah, I'm not gonna compromise. We're not gonna be politically correct, and he grew up in the age of that, where we threw that off. And so the idea is we're not gonna compromise. And so you think about the origins of the Seven Mountains mandate with R.J. Rustuni and the Christian Reconstruction Movement. It was about creating a Christian consensus based upon Old Testament laws. Whether he actually thought that whatever that was ever going to happen is up for debate, but Charlie says, okay, let's do it. And I think that the no compromise and when we compromise we lose, that is a Trumpian line and always fight back and all those lines. So it is coming to a head in such a way that all the things you just listed could be possible. And so I went to this pastor summit and I wanted to you know, have the question answered How would Charlie Kirk speak now that he's won? Right would he change his spiritual warfare battle plan strategy that happened in the campaign and years before that, right? What would he say now that he's won? he didn't change anything. He said we have so much more to do We've won DC. We've won the presidency and now we're go after the other six mountains So yeah, all the things you just mentioned I think could happen he said This country needs a 10 to 15 year exorcism. So what are they gonna exorcise out? All the things you just mentioned. You know, I'm curious about your strategy to talk about this stuff, because, I mean, Josh and I went to this Summit for Religious Freedom, I guess last week, and, you know, one of the things that, one of my takeaways was, I mean, we attended some breakaway sessions and stuff, and it was great. I learned a few things that I didn't know specifically about abortion and Supreme Court. But a lot of the other stuff was just like stuff we've talking to smart folks like you. And, you know, we weren't really surprised, but we were surprised that there was no real in-depth conversations about seven mountain mandate. You know, I mean, I get it. It was a big tent. you know, limited amount of speakers. But I think that experience kind of speaks to a broader issue that I know I have. talking about this stuff, mean, talking about Christian nationalism in of itself is just kind of like, man, like, do I really want to have this conversation? If somebody asked me, I'll tell them, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to lead a conversation with, you know, Christian nationalism. Yeah, like, like, and, I don't even know how to get into a conversation about Seven Mountain Mandate. So like, what have you found has been helpful or productive to kind of at least navigate these kinds of conversations about Seven Mountain Mandate? You know, so I was sitting at that pastor's summit and I've gone to couple of turning point events and I'm always in my head like would they recognize me, do they care that I'm here. You know, I had to register for this event so they knew my name and they approved me going. So it's like do they really care that much? And I bring that up because, you know, I wanted to talk with people. I was gonna, I had plans to sit there and ask people questions about it but I would come across as someone who was not supposed to be there and I didn't want to be kicked out. And so it's kind of hard to talk to people about it unless you're identifying yourself as someone on the outside. so I guess what I'm getting at is it is not a thing people bring up in my area. It is not something that I've heard at the different churches that I've attended here in Georgia. But at the same time, if you take that as a strategy, Seven Mountains as a strategy, there are people talking about America as a Christian nation, and there are people talking about taking back certain areas, government being primarily ones. But I think at the same time, it's just like they're interested in their faith and their values being out there and being part of the conversation. And I think that many Christians are un... What's the word unsure about where to go just as you said they don't much sure how far they want to take it or how far other people are willing to take it and I think they many of them are pushed away by groups by turning point but at the same time you had Gavin Newsom tell Charlie Kirk that Gavin's Newsom son is a fan of Charlie Kirk So, I mean there are people out there who are attracted to it and are attracted to what he's saying and it I'm gonna say opens the window the Overton window or opens the door to you talking about the seven men mandate. It opens the door to what he wants you to say and I think that that takes time but I know I don't have initially have conversations in and around here about it but I do see a distinction between the cooperative Baptist Fellowship Church that I've been to and the Southern Baptist Church that I have attended in past and we'll just say the Free Chapel version of that. There is a distinction between those three and you can tell it right away. They might not mention the phrase seven mountains, but you can tell exactly what they're for. Like when you basically through the language of the preaching, is that kind of what you mean? Or just like through the language of the preaching and everyone just the way that they talk that you can tell that they're like that they are all bought in on this idea of seven mountains? well, it wouldn't use the phrase Seven Mountains, but the idea of the sermon, not just the sermon preaching, but the titles and the topics they go to. You know, I did a study back in 2016 about I called it the Sunday after the Tuesday. So I looked at sermons that were preached the four day, five days after the election and I looked at a couple beforehand and I couldn't I couldn't find any at all that endorsed candidates. But I saw many that talked about You know, as you just said voting for this particular thing or voting for this particular position I heard a really good sermon from a pastor who during the sermon talked about going into the voting booth and not knowing what to do and Not knowing what to choose and it was really interesting He didn't really say who he voted for but the idea that he that he struggled was the idea there I also had a really good sermon from JD Greer in Raleigh I think he literally the day the days after election apologized to a bunch of people in his congregation minority groups, immigrants, because he knew what had happened there in that election in 2016. So I think there's a wide range of obviously sermons that are being given on these different things, and I think that I've listened to several sermons that are related to pastors in Turning Point USA, and they're talking about school boards, they're talking about American history they'll bring in David Barton. They're talking about citizenship training. They do that a lot. So if you see those particular things, you know what church are in. Hmm, that makes sense. What advice do you have for conservative pastors? I consider myself a conservative. I know because I didn't vote for Donald Trump and because I have compassion on LGBTQ people that I'm sure that to many people I'm awoke and straight from the pit of hell. But I see myself as a pretty conservative pastor. and I voted Republican. I did not vote for Donald Trump in the last few elections, but otherwise I basically voted Republican. And for my Congress members and senators and stuff like that and governor. So I guess my question is what advice do you have to offer for conservatism pastors that find themselves like They love the conservative cause and they want to be able to bring that out in the marketplace of ideas, but they can't stand the populism. They can't stand the nationalism. can't stand the... Yeah, mean, yeah, this seven mountain mandate or this dominionism and taking over, like, they find themselves very concerned. What advice do have for them? You know, I struggle with that myself. because you could double down on the weakness of Christianity, you could double down on serving the poor, and you can mention immigrants every now and then, and I think that would go over well with many people, and to continue to do that. But I think because of the things you just mentioned, if you will pressure from congregants or the idea that you have connections with this group, you just don't like other parts of the group, is that you have to then separate yourself from it. So I think, I mean, we might use the phrase different way of doing politics, but that isn't what the church is supposed to be. So we could talk about that. I think I read, you know, Michael Ware books a couple of times and he talks about, you know, deescalating the importance of politics, not just in the church, but in America. Like Turning Point is interested in making every political election a national referendum on it and in the candidate. So deescalating that. And I think, you know, Somebody had mentioned this in terms of Easter the other day. was like, obviously there's the weakness and the death and the cross, but there is also the life thing. And so one of the things I would say is that if you want to build life-giving stuff, if you want to leave a legacy, if you want to sustain stuff. This movement is not going to do that. They're not going to be monuments and statues 100 years from now, just as we have, you know, church origin stones, you know, built here in 1836. If you want to build something that is going to sustain life longer than the next election, Christianity is where it's at. It's not the populism or the nationalism that you said. And, you know, that does end with, you know, let the chips fall where they may nationally. I don't know if that would go over well. But it's the idea that you've got to find something, positive declaration for Christianity. I don't know if the weakness of Christianity gets you there because we live in a society where that is not held up high. But if you want to talk about life giving or sustaining life or legacy, I sort of go there because I think that some people who are, and it's going to stereotype, the grandfathers who are in the MAGA movement, if they want to get out of it, that's what they're going to think about. Yeah, they're gonna have to think about legacy that yeah, she's you know, want to hear you saying is you're contextualizing to to what people are gonna what's gonna be effective from them to hear and ultimately right I mean the way of Jesus is a way of sacrifice and and it's a way that he chose intentionally to live a life of surrender to the will of God and and a sacrifice and and loving the people that were marginalized and I think that we We are going to have to do a lot of hard work as a church. And I don't know how prepared we are for that. Man, Michael, what gives you hope? Not Michael Matthew, sorry. What gives you hope? You said Michael Ware and then that was in my head because we actually interviewed him. But what gives you hope moving forward? Ugh, you know, somebody asked me that question too and I sighed. I can't think of anything. I do think that... don't say faithful living, it's sort of the repetition of doing the same thing over and again, if you will, ritual. I think that's the thing that gives me hope because I've known other people that do rituals and I'm a Thomas Merton fan, so that sort of monastic Mitchell appeals to me. But it's that doing those things again and again without the... burden of effectiveness or success. I mean, we mentioned effective rhetoric, but we also should say those things because we should say those things, not necessarily because they're effective. And I think that doing the same thing again and again, because it matters, doing religious rituals, doing things like that, that is what, you know, people build hope on and hope is built on something. It's not just a feeling. Yeah, I like that. How can people connect with you? Is there a special place you want them to get the book? Well, you can order it from the publisher of Westminster John Dexpress with a 40 % discount code. That's the number seven, the letter M and cast C A S T seven M cast for 40 % off at the publishers website. You can also get it off of Amazon or any other book seller that you got. I'm on Twitter X whatever you want to call it at Matthew Bodie M A T T H E W B O E D Y. I do have an email from the university. You're welcome to email me, but I'm not going to give it out. You're going to have to go look it up. You gotta dig for like a normal person. We're not gonna spoon feed you here on Faithful Politics. That's awesome, jump filter works really well here. It does, I hear that, I hear that. Well, Matthew, man, thank you so much for coming on the show, spending some time with us. It's enlightening every time we talk about this. It just more reminds me of how crucial this conversation really is and how people really need to think about it. I'm glad somebody's reading the book. Yeah, it's like if people like if they want a country where essentially your brother or sister or your cousin or your friend who is gay or is working through, you know, a gender identity or whatever, and they essentially might be at risk, then let's keep going down the same path. And if we want something different, and I just bring that up because it's such a huge thing, man. Anyway, I don't have to jump on it again, but it's... yes if they're not willing to talk with you you've already lost them. Yeah, I so I just I hope that we can take it seriously and really appreciate your work though and bringing this to light. Thank you for doing that. Thanks for coming on the program. Absolutely. And to our friends and viewers, guys, thanks for joining us. Make sure you like, subscribe, share this with someone you feel like is going to benefit. We try to get you really quality stuff, thought provoking material. so that you can take this, you can wrestle with it, you can talk to people about it, you can share it, so that we can start to spread these messages and these dialogues and conversations like fire, but a good fire, not the kinds that destroy everything, like the wildfires. So guys, thank you for joining us again, and until next time, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. God bless. it.