Christian Utopias and Network States: Kiera Butler on Theo Bros in Appalachia

In this episode, Faithful Politics welcomes back Kiera Butler, senior editor at Mother Jones, to discuss her latest reporting on a group of Christian nationalists aiming to build a secluded community in Appalachia. Butler unpacks how this network of self-identified "Theo Bros," led by figures like Andrew Isker and supported by investment firm New Founding, is attempting to create a crypto-fueled, autonomy-driven enclave in Tennessee. We explore the ideological motivations behind this project, the connections to Silicon Valley's "network state" movement, and the potential implications for local communities already established in the region. Tune in to hear Butler's insights on the intersections of faith, real estate, and the radical vision for a "Christian nation" in the American heartland.

Guest Bio:
Kiera Butler is a senior editor at Mother Jones, where she covers politics, culture, and the intersection of religion and power in America. She is known for her investigative reporting on Christian nationalism and emerging political movements and has written extensively on the rise of "Theo Bros" and their efforts to create autonomous Christian enclaves.

Resources & Links:

The Christian Theobros are Building a Tech Utopia in Appalachia: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2025/04/christian-theobros-are-building-a-tech-utopia-in-appalachia/

Transcript

0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching this on our YouTube channel, we are so glad to have you. Make sure you like and subscribe. I am your political host, Wright, and joined by your faithful host once again is Pastor Josh. How's it going, Pastor Josh? I don't know why I your name so weird. And uh returning. Back to us is Keira Butler. She is a senior editor of Mother Jones, where she covers politics, culture, and the intersection of religion and power in America, and wrote a piece that I think is still relevant not so long ago called The Christian Theobros are Building a Tech Utopia in Appalachia, uh where she takes a pretty deep look into kind of what these folks are doing in this sector of the country. I don't want to. Spoil it for you just quite yet. So I'm going to let her talk all about that and yeah, just welcome her back to the show. Good to see you again, Kira. Thanks so much for having me back. Yeah, glad. So, so let's talk about what's kind of been going on in the world of Christian nationalism uh within the country. So tell us about what drew you to start looking at real estate and the Appalachian. So um this community in Appalachia had been on my radar for a while. I had written about the Theo Bros, which is this kind of, I think we talked about it last time, but it's this kind of loose network of reformed Christian guys. Most of them are millennials. They're very online. um They are constantly on social media. They're always on each other's podcasts, they're going to conferences, and they're also very well connected in politics and also in Silicon Valley. um Kind of a key initiative in this world is this real estate and investment firm called New Founding. um It is run by two of the Theo Bros. Their names are Josh Abatoy and Nate Fisher. um One of their flagship projects with this investment firm is this real estate project. um And basically they're buying up um land in uh Tennessee and I think to a lesser extent, Kentucky um with sort of the intention of making a Christian community. um And uh Andrew Isker, who is another Theo Bro, He's this guy from Minnesota. um He used to be a pastor there until he moved his family to this community in Tennessee. He bought some land from New Founding and he's said that he wants to start a church, really jumpstart this Christian community in Appalachia. He's a pretty extreme kind of guy. um He has co-written a book. ah with Andrew Torba, that's the CEO of the right-wing social media platform, Gab. Andrew Torba is a of a proudly antisemitic person. Andrew Isker has, you know, uh he's made some pretty out there controversial statements in his own right. You know, he's said some antisemitic stuff. has... said some homophobic stuff as well, as well as some kind of uh anti-feminist stuff. um So, know, this is a guy who has these very extreme beliefs and at the same time is attempting to start a community um in this Appalachian community that already exists. So that's sort of a, that was probably a longer explanation than you were looking for, but. No, mean, it's pretty wild to read the story and not fully appreciate kind of what it actually means or what this community could or would look like 20 years from now. Because in my mind, I'm thinking it's like this HOA sort of like suburbs, uh cul-de-sacs and you know. people waving high and having grass and stuff like that. But then like, but what would a version of that with a Christian nationalist overtone look like? Would that be like every house has an appeal to heaven flag? uh And like those little fish, Jesus fish stickers and all the cars or something like that. I'm curious, like, well, what have you heard or how can you describe this community? Yeah, think that it's sort of, they're not interested in the kind of cul-de-sac look. They're sort of specifically, explicitly I should say, not interested in that. What they say they want is to kind of restore this community in Appalachia to what it used to be, maybe like 100 years ago. They want this community to, I guess, revolve around. agriculture, though it's not actually clear who's going to do the farming. um They're almost, I think they've said they imagine like, you know, an English countryside kind of a vibe. um And ah I think part of this project, and if you look on their website, you can see um in their promotional materials, ah this kind of idea that you will have a lot of privacy. um when you buy these parcels of land that this is the perfect place to kind of hunker down um and be apart from a world that is going in a direction that they don't approve of. So I think rather than kind of cookie cutter suburban Jesus fish, um I would imagine something a little more unusual. um Yeah. That's wild. em I would love to dig a little bit more into Iskir. He moved his family, went to this place in Tennessee, in Appalachia. The question is, we might make lot of assumptions as to why he did that, they're established in this community, but what were the reasons that he gave for leaving where they were and what are the reasons that they give to other people? I mean, I hear you say privacy, but what's more than that? What's the kind of deeper underlying thing that they're trying to motivate people with? Yeah, so um Iskir has posted about this and podcasted about this a lot. According to him, to hear him tell it, he was really disappointed with the direction that Minnesota was going in, particularly under Tim Walz. And uh he tells a story of, I guess, he has a bunch of kids. I can't remember whether it's five or six, but. um One of his kids is autistic and had been receiving services through the public school system, even though I think the rest of his kids are homeschooled. m And the way that he put it was that he was afraid that when this kid of his was going to this public school program, that somebody would make this kid transgender. And that then when he complained about the school transing his kid, ah then um Child Protective Services would come and take the kid away. And so he sort of imagined this very kind of dark fantasy playing out. And after that, um he decided, you know, it's time to move my family. um You know, he said his family has been in Minnesota for generations and that it wasn't an easy decision to make, but things had just gotten so bad there that he decided to make this move. That is just absolutely wild. I have to ask, like, what about this plot of land, um you know, was so special or the area that they chose? it like, you know, is there some sort of like broader picture? Because basically what it sounds like is that they are looking to create their own civilization that will one day... secede from the United States. like, what's so special about the location that they want to base this community in? I I don't know that there's anything special about it. Obviously, Tennessee is not politically like Minnesota. um This is a red state, and it's a rural area. It's also, I I've never been there myself, but I've looked at pictures, and I've talked to people who have visited. And it is an incredibly beautiful um area of the country. It's just stunning natural beauty. So you can sort of see the appeal, for sure. um I guess I should mention that Phil Williams, who is an investigative reporter in Nashville, um looked into this uh effort to create this community. And he talked to some people who live in the area. And these local folks were not happy about this effort to make a new community there. They expressed sentiments along the lines of, well, we already have a community here. um Yeah, they hadn't really been informed and they were not happy about it. em In your article, you talked a little bit about kind of the currency that they hope to use or will use. Can you sort of elaborate on that? I mean, I'll try. I don't have very many details, and I do not pretend to be a crypto expert. there had been some of their promotional materials had kind of suggested that they were interested in having a crypto-based economy in this place. And I actually, managed to talk to Josh Abatoy. I talked to him briefly, and then he answered a bunch of my questions via email. And he didn't really elaborate on the crypto plan, but he said that many of the folks who have already bought land um in the community were, I can't remember exactly how he phrased it, but I think he suggested that they were interested in crypto. So one of the things that's interesting about this is it seems like, for what we've been saying and what Will just implied, they're creating this essentially separate community, this community that's kind of an enclave outside of the normal structures. And they want this community to be, m I guess some of the wording is a thick community, like a tightly knitted. culturally homogenous group, it's sharing commitments of faith, it's sharing commitments of family structure, conservative values, even things like autonomy and digital self-governance, which you had mentioned, like this crypto uh integration. We've been talking about the end goal a little bit, but what makes this different than say other... um enclaves, other times where people have gotten the homesteader idea, they go and they grab these large plots of land and several families meet on it. Or like in Utah where they'd have several families in all these different houses and of course it was one, many times it was one man and he had several different wives. um That obviously isn't the only kind that were out there. What makes us different and worthy of attention, do you think? I think, and this was really what prompted me to write the piece right now, um was the involvement, or I won't say involvement, but I would say connections between this particular group of Theobros at New Founding and the folks who are behind this movement um that has been getting some attention recently called the Network State Movement. This is an idea that was broadly popularized by a guy named Balaji Sreenivasan. He is a Silicon Valley investor and a close friend of Peter Thiel. And the idea basically is that you have a bunch of people on the internet who share some values and decide that they want to come together and you kind of make a community on the internet and you you maybe uh establish some rules for your community and then you establish maybe a currency like a, you know, cryptocurrency for your community. And then the next part of the project is to uh find some actual land for your community. And, you know, maybe you have a few pieces of land and they're not contiguous, but eventually you wind up with uh so much kind of economic uh power and, you know, maybe you are attracting new businesses to your land because you don't have the same regulations, can deregulate in ways that are friendly to startups. And eventually it becomes so powerful that uh other more established nations, more traditional nations have to recognize you. You've seen some attempts to do this in various ways. They're not all exactly the same. One would say probably the The most prominent example is this deregulated zone in Honduras called Prospera, where some folks who are connected also to Peter Thiel have been uh doing some experiments with deregulating medical procedures um and various other forms of deregulation and trying to figure out how to get this kind of nascent society off the ground there. um I guess to tie it back to new founding, um it's a similar, it's not exactly the same thing as Prospera. And Josh Abitoy in his email made that clear to me that he's like, this is not exactly a network state, but there are some similarities. There's this effort to, or this desire to um use crypto um and all of the kind of uh legislative implications of that. The other thing that's important to note, is that when he was campaigning, I think this was in 2023, Trump mentioned this idea of freedom cities. And this idea basically is that the federal government would take federally owned land and convert that land into freedom cities, which would be deregulated zones. each of them might be you know, based around a certain industry like a, you know, defense freedom city or a, you know, pharmaceutical freedom city or whatever. um Again, the community and the new founding community in Tennessee is not exactly that, but I did ask Josh Abatoy if he could see himself ever leasing any of that land back to the federal government. And he said, you know, no concrete plans, but you never know. It's not out of the question. um The other important thing to note, and then I'll shut up, is that ah Josh Abatoy is part of a pretty new group um that came together. It's called the Frontier Foundation. And this is a group that exists to lobby for Freedom Cities to happen. He, along with a few other folks who are in this world, they've written an open letter and they're, you know, uh meeting with some with officials in the Trump administration about, you know, how can we get this freedom cities thing up and rolling? That's pretty wild. I didn't know about the freedom cities, but I am curious and it's my own failing. I've connected Christian nationalism to this compound a couple of times, and I don't want to necessarily put words in your mouth or in the articles mouth or anything like that, but I would love for you to talk about, there connections and if there are connections to... Christian nationalist adjacent type of movements, like what are they? Because I know that theobros, for instance, know, could probably fit in that vein. Yeah, and in fact, uh Andrew Iskher's book that he wrote with Andrew Torba was about Christian nationalism. It was kind of making an argument in favor of Christian nationalism. Andrew Iskher is the author of another book called The Bone of Face Option that makes the argument for uh basically having a Christian society that kind of ah secedes from broader society. So, you know, I guess... When you talk about people who are unapologetically Christian nationalist, Andrew Iskher definitely um fits that mold. And I believe that his, um he does a podcast and his podcast co-hosts CJ Angle, who is also part of this Tennessee community. I think he is the same. um As for Josh Abatoy and Nate Fisher, um they, Also, another one of their projects is American Reformer, which is kind of this online publication that's like the unofficial Theo Bro's magazine. um And... William Wolf, right? Is it the William Wolf one? Is that American reformer? Or maybe he just contributes. Anyways, sorry. I think he does contribute. He's the former Trump administration theobro, right? Yeah. And he's also Center for Baptist Leadership, is that right? You could be right. I'm not, I know that it's Josh Abatoy and Nate Fisher. I don't know if William Wolfe is also part of that team. No, no, no. um Anyway, um so American Reformer has definitely run um many pieces that argue in favor of Christian nationalism. um So I think, you you can, if you're trying to connect the dots between this community and Christian nationalism, doesn't, um it doesn't take too many steps. Gotcha. So I would love to dig in a little bit more to the idea of network states. what is it? It's a new concept to me. Help me understand the concept of a network state, like moving from and even then making this connection from digital to physical communities. What's going on with that? um like, how much is that happening right now? Like, what's going on? Well, I think that's just exactly the question, right? It's like, you kind of see uh network states this idea written about in two ways. And one way is like, this is terrifying. It's coming for us all. And the other way is like, this is ridiculous. This has never worked. It's never going to happen. um And I think the answer is like a little bit of both. um Balaji Srinivasan originally laid out, he has a, first he wrote an essay and then he wrote a book based on the essay where he kind of laid out his vision for network states. And he talked about um two different kinds of network states, right? There's um what he called exit, which is this idea of ah exiting um from real nations and forming your own new nations with like-minded people. um kind of powered by cryptocurrency. um And then he talked about another version of this, um which he called voice, um where you take these principles and you kind of try to reform the existing structures of government according to this kind technocratic vision. um And it is, I've talked to a few people who have. pointed to Elon Musk and what Musk is doing with Doge. And specifically, I talked to a guy who basically said, all of this would be so ridiculous and like pie in the sky and just don't take it seriously. It's another Silicon Valley optimist, like never gonna happen project, except that you have the richest man in the world who's trying to actually enact some of these principles. right before our eyes. So the Highland Rim project, this a community that's already up and running with people? What phase is this project in? guess is probably the better question. Yeah, I think um it's an early phase. I think they've sold a few dozen parcels of land. I don't know how many people are actually living there yet. um I think Andrew Isker, last I checked, um he was running a church out of a rented space, but the church was invite only. um And... not a come as you are church I guess not, yeah. And I think they're also trying to start like an events venue slash country club, hunting club kind of thing there, but I don't think they've actually started it yet. So yeah, so far it seems like they've bought the land. A few people have bought the land from them. We've got Andrew Isker, who's like trying to make it happen. um I don't think it's like a fully functional, know, crypto fueled community yet. Yeah, I mean, but like, how much are these plots? And I mean, could, you know, me as a progressive liberal move to Tennessee and, you know, buy a plot of land or something like that in this community? I think it's been a minute since I've looked at the real estate listings, but I think that they reign, there was a big range. think that they're depending on like the size and the location, they were anywhere from like $30,000 to like 200 something dollars, I wanna say. And that's of course, you you have to, buy the land and you have to like build a house on it. Right, so it's $200,000 between $30,000 $200,000. I think, yeah, don't, I can look back at my. all good. That's just wild, man. So, okay. I guess I'm trying to get the whole picture here and it's definitely emerging and I see it. So we live in America where you're supposed to be able to go and the government gave huge plots of land to people expanding west and they tried to incentivize this exploration and... and part of that, it seems, was they were staying out of people's business. And yet, now we have, we're in a very different place, right? We don't typically think about uh communities becoming their own autonomous entity. You even think about like Indian reservations that are supposed to run fairly uh autonomously from the surrounding authorities, and yet they're still under the authority of the federal government. What... What do you anticipate, like what would it take from the actually move, like practical steps, if you have an idea of what it would take for them to move to achieve actually any kind of formal recognition or legitimacy, not just like on a state level, but like on a national and international stage? it like just the digital part of it that's going to have any influence? What do you imagine? Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to say because I don't think that this particular experiment has been tried before. When people talk about examples of network state-esque projects that have worked, they talk about deregulated economic zones. They're the kind that you find in Shenzhen in China, for example. And that's a little different, right? Those are em places that... deliberately have fewer regulations to attract businesses. um You know, that it's different from, you know, a religious community trying to do the same or a similar thing with really kind of a values-based motivation. um So I think it, you know, it really remains to be seen um whether they would be able to make something like this work. or whether it's going to end up just being, you know, like what I asked Josh Abatoy about, like they buy up all this land, it doesn't really happen, and then they lease it back to the federal government and, you know, Trump makes these deregulated freedom cities. It's wild, man. Yeah, I am kind of curious on what your sense is that, like, either Vice President Vance or Trump uh knows, you know, what Andrew Iskher ah is up to here. And the only reason I'm asking is because, like, I came to this realization today. Obviously, Trump's not a big fan of the media. uh News alert. uh But the stories that he typically tends to point out and call fake news, at least in my experience, have never been connected to anything connected remotely to Christian nationalism. And I've always wondered, is that on purpose? Because it's not like, I he's got a faith. office like next door to him in the White House. know, like, I'm just like the connections are clear and there are people like yourself writing articles. So like, I love to know if you get the sense or if you're not sure like what would be the pathway for Vance or Trump to know about what's happening. Well, know, Trump is kind of a, he's a wild card. Like I saw him, I saw him speak at like a campaign event at a mega church in Georgia, like a few days before the election. And there was like a, it was like a fireside chat kind of style interview with him. And he just, you know, this was a room full of pastors, like, you know, deep South, like charismatic, like preachers. And Trump was just kind of like looking around like, and I didn't, you I almost hesitate to say this because I didn't actually manage to record this. So I don't really have any proof that he said it, but he did. He was like, wow, you guys sure are religious. I don't, Trump himself is not like, I don't think that's like his number one issue or anything. um Vance on the other hand, um obviously he is very religious, know, Catholic convert, recent Catholic convert. um And he's also, know, in a few, this piece and a few other ones, I noted that he's connected to this Theo Bros movement, mostly just because he is a right-wing religious guy who's extremely online and kind of Silicon Valley adjacent as well. These are the same circles that some of these Theo Bros run in. There's a... uh a great reporter researcher whose name is Jenny Cohn. um She was with Bucks County Beacon for a while and she did some really good reporting that revealed that um Vance is connected to American Reformer because ah there's a guy, an investor named Chris Buskirk, like very powerful right wing donor who um started this network called the Rockbridge Network that was like a Republican donor network. with JD Vance and Chris Buskirk is on the board of American Reformer. Jenny Cohen also surfaced a picture of Vance with a bunch of Theobros. And just the other day, there's this guy, Steve Deese, who um some of your listeners might be familiar with. He is a guy who is a uh host for Blaze TV. He has a show that has, it's like the Steve Deese show. And he's hosted a number of Theobros on his show, including Joel Webin, who's like one of the outspoken of that crew. Yes, right, provocative perhaps. um And so Steve Dease is very tight. He's also had Doug Wilson, who's kind of like the Theobro patriarch, the Moscow, Idaho guy on his show. um So last week, Steve Dease posted on on X a picture of him with JD Vance. He had, I guess, been in Washington and just had to stop by and have a photo op with JD Vance. um you know, I think ah to the extent that um people at the highest levels of government would be aware of this project, it would have to be through Vance. I mean, yeah, guess saw a, uh, Iskher was on a podcast with, Oh, what's his name? They're the guy who's Tucker Carlson. you know, Trump knows Tucker and Vance knows Tucker. So they're just one, they're less than six degrees of separation. Well, they're like one degree of separation or maybe zero degrees, which makes me, so here's the interesting thing that would love to get your take on. When I think Silicon Valley, I do think market, free market. I might think libertarian. I'm not thinking theobros, and I'm not thinking reformed theology, and I'm not thinking um some of the uh essentially anti-feminist, anti-woke, anti- liberal ideas that are coming out of guys like Iskarr and those surrounding him. And yet there's this affinity, this almost shared vision of these networks and cities outside of necessarily the control or regulation of government. is there this massive conspiracy that we don't know about? the Silicon Valley trying to take over the world? I don't know, for lack of a better term. It's just wild to me. These things are coming out and it's like, if people just like, they're just like, I don't know, they're just blowing smoke or... concerns on a government or in the higher levels about this kind of stuff. Because it's not new, right? So what I'm just curious is how have these come together, these such disparate groups? yeah, it's a really good question. And, you know, I think there has been a kind of surge in Christianity in Silicon Valley. Part of that might have to do with Peter Thiel, who himself is a Christian and, you know, this kind of obsessed with this, you know, ah particular Catholic thinker, René Girard, who's the guy behind this mimetic theory and mimetic desire, that whole idea. So I think when you see somebody who is as rich and powerful as Peter Thiel, who's telling you, hey, there's something to this Christian thing, uh that can be very, very influential and very seductive. So you have that. At the same time, I would agree that it's not like you, that everybody in Silicon Valley is gonna be a reformed Christian nationalist. um But I've also written about El Segundo, which has long been kind of a defense tech hub. And there are a bunch of new companies there and there's this kind of new scene there. um lots of young men who are very conservative and have these startups like they're doing, nuclear startups, there's a guy Augustus de Rico, he has like a weather modification geoengineering startup. And some of these guys are reformed, like some of these guys are like Doug Wilson, like. Moscow, Idaho, acolytes, they go to a reformed church, they post about their reformed Christianity, they do share some of these values. So while I agree that it's not like the dominant scene in Silicon Valley, it's definitely there. Yeah, and just, it's interesting. know, Will, I was passing on to you, but like, so that's a particular kind of reform, right? Because, I I was heavily influenced by reform theology when I got out of college. And I did, it was through reform theology that I came across books by a guy named Gary North, who is a dominionist. And I remember reading in some of the stuff where he was like, yeah, we should have public executions again. and also reinstate Old Testament Torah law. And I'm like, what the heck? So I remember reading this and being like, this is wild and just thinking it's real fringe. And yet, of course, there's a diversity in the Reformed community around this. And I just wonder what it is about the Reformed, like this particular community. But then again, it's in the charismatic community too, and their love for power and their connection with Trump. It's just fascinating to me. It's just... I grew up thinking all of this was so, I don't know if innocent is the right word, but good. You know, and I get such concerns when I'm looking at all this stuff now about like people creating new, trying to create new nations and within our nation. And it's just like, what are we doing? Like, it's just, and it's all like people in my tribe, know, Christians and Charismatics and Reform people. I'm like, what's, you guys are making me look bad. What's going on here? Conservatives, all these people. I guess thank you for noting that though. don't mean to paint with such a broad brush that like all reform people have these beliefs or anything. um You know, I do think it's like a lot of the churches that have come out of um the Moscow, Idaho movement, these crack churches. um And also, you know, separately, of course, the New Apostolic Reformation has flavors of Christian nationalism as well, but. I never want to make the claim that all charismatic Christians or all reformed Christians hold these beliefs. All Charismatic Christians are kind of nuts though, I'll tell you that. Coming from being one. Okay, anyway. Yeah, not gonna argue there and yeah, no worries, Kira, about making broad generalizations. uh Josh has been called to the carpet a couple times when some of our more right-leaning religious leaders found out that he didn't vote for Trump in the last two. Like, he doesn't get partial credit, one out of three, but you've got to be... No partial credit, I mean, it's really travesty. I'd love for you to paint a picture for us about these values that you say they're trying to ah aggregate, develop, create a community around. I think, and I'm guilty of this myself, even on the podcast. It's like I make this assumption. that when we were talking about folks like Doug Wilson or we're talking about Dio Bros or we're talking about, you know, certain brand of Christianity, you know, somebody listening to this might think like, okay, cool. Like, I'd love to be in a community with other Christians. That's kind of what our church teaches, you know? Like, hey, like, cool would it be if I didn't have to drive to my small group? I just walk next door, you know, or something. So, like, help kind of paint the picture of how these values you know, may affect people um that, you know, normally probably wouldn't be affected. Well, I think probably the easiest way for me to do that is to tell you a little bit more about Andrew Isker, um the guy who moved from Minnesota to help start this community. um So he, you know, I'm just looking back at my piece so that I don't get this wrong. um He has a few dozen followers on X and he kind of, ah it seems like he delights in making these m very kind of outlandish out there statements. um Did you say dozens or thousands? So he has 43,000 followers total, so like a few dozen. So he has, one of his posts said, I don't hate Jews, their religion is literally blasphemous and anti-Christian. You cannot be a Christian without recognizing this. He has referred on acts to Indian people as cow worshipers. He has called the United States a gynochrosy, where the only way out is men telling women no. He has argued in favor of repealing the Civil Rights Act. And he has said that the Civil Rights Act biases our laws against Christians, men and white people. uh He has spoken at conferences alongside extremists. He talked at a Texas conference alongside Paul Gottfried, who is kind of a mentor figure for Richard Spencer, who's a prominent white nationalist. you know, and of course, like Andrew Iskher is not like, you know, you can't you have to be careful about making generalizations like his beliefs are not exactly the same as all of the other Theo bros. But this is a guy who's running the church for this community that holds these kinds of beliefs. Yeah. you know, I was, there's a tension that comes to me when I'm thinking about this, because on the one hand, it's like, and I was thinking about it when Will was talking, because when he asked the question, like, hey, we're like, we talk to people like Christians, right? And I'm a pastor. We talk to people about being in Christian community all the time, right? How important it is, how... how important it is it's not just Sunday morning Christian, or like this goes out into your life and it's affecting your life and you're connecting with people throughout the week and connecting with the church and this is what the early church did. And yet, uh when I read something about this, this community that's being developed, I feel very strange. I feel like that's not a good idea to create this enclave that people are coming and being a part of. And yet it's weird because it's like, I'm always talking about Christian community and yet this doesn't feels like, it feels like it's outside of what I would think would be a good and appropriate expression of that in America. And the tension I feel is that, man, I mean, they're kind of doing, you know, they're taking the American dream and they're taking it to its, I don't know. to its logical fulfillment for them. They're pursuing freedom. They want total freedom. They want liberty from the people around them. They want to be able to practice the things that they want with like-minded people. And again, it's like, wow, that sounds kind of nice, you know, on one hand. And I can't quite put my finger on what is concerning about it. I could keep talking, but I would love to hear from you. What are you most concerned about when it comes to these groups? have to ask me. You can watch the YouTube video that Phil Williams put up where he interviewed a bunch of the folks that already live there, many of whom consider themselves Christians. He interviewed a pastor. And they very much said, doesn't represent our values. So it's one thing to go to a place and you know, practice your religion however you want to practice your religion. I think that what Phil Williams was getting at with his investigation was that there is a community of people who this is affecting. Even though they want it to be like this isolated place, it's not. There are already people there who don't share those beliefs. The local people, yeah, go ahead, Mo. I was going to say, based on the people that you've talked to and what you know about some of the players, do you view this more like some sort of ideological experiment or some sort of political ploy that's going to lead to something different? I think probably both and also, uh you know, this is an investment firm. And I think, you know, what they're hoping to do, you know, beyond this kind of utopian vision that they have is make money. Yeah, I guess you're right. like, mean, as I'm sitting here thinking about all the different things that this community would have to think about. ah I mean, if they live off the grid, you know, are they going to use windmills, which we know Trump hates? You know, are they going to use solar panels? Are they going to use coal? ah they're doing crypto mining, where is all of the energy for that going to come from? I'm just thinking like water, you know, just normal public works stuff and does the zoning have to be. Like I mean, I don't know the first thing about zoning permits or anything like that. But you know, could it be zoned to basically live completely off off the map? And you know, these are questions I'm sure that, you know, we'll all probably find out sooner than later. But uh But yeah, I am curious on, you know, has Andrew Isker made any comments about the... Because after your article, I started following him on Twitter and I started getting all his notifications. So everything that you've been saying is 100 % accurate about the comments he makes. But I don't think I've seen him posting anything about like this particular thing. No, I haven't seen that either. I haven't seen any kind of down to brass tacks, like nitty gritty details about where, okay, so you're wanting to form the separate society that doesn't have anything to do with the government or whatever. But how are you getting electricity? These questions that you asked, the infrastructure, where is that coming from? Yeah, I haven't seen any details about that. You know, I think for me, the broader concern, if I'm thinking about this, right, is that the idea that people could come together, right, within a nation, within a sovereign nation and start establishing, whether it's online or a physical location, which, right, what are they doing? They're moving from online to physical locations, right, because you can only do so much online. Even in like the community online is great, but there's something about being together in physical proximity that people still want that's still important. And I just am imagining like, I was like, hey, to our church, let's buy this and let's create this place with our own laws and with our own everything. It just feels like, yeah, what's dangerous about that? Well, it seems like that's something that's rife for abuse. Right? So we've made these laws in our society, and I get that it can feel like sometimes it's so hard to change anything. It's so hard to get laws passed or maybe the laws, it's just, there's so many words in it and it's not really doing what you think it's going to do. The democratic process is slow. Right? And so if you're in a... you're in a society and you're wanting to escape from it, I can get the appeal of wanting to be able to go and make your own rules. And yet at the same time, it feels like they wouldn't want that kind of same. I don't know. I haven't heard them say I'm following this. I might start doing that now, but they wouldn't necessarily want a Muslim camp that was completely... separated and isolated from the rest of the United States. um Outside of the laws of the United States, um total privacy so you don't know what's going on in there. And they could be doing any number of things. And I'm just imagining, right? They could just be hanging out, reading the Quran and doing their life just like Krishna would say that we're just trying to have a place where we can have, they just want to be able to have Sharia law. They don't want to hurt anybody. They just want to be able to live the life to their... you know, by their standards. And yet I would have, I would be uncomfortable with that. And if I would be uncomfortable with that, I would have to have the same questions that I would ask about this other Christian, right, camp. And I wouldn't have in the past as much as I definitely would now. And this idea that we can just take in and start. creating all these communities just because we have a lot of money, right? Or the richest man in the world is now potentially behind this. So Elon gets to create his own countries. Obviously, I'm not saying you're saying that. just like, I'm trying to work through the concern and I can see how there could be, it's right for abuse. There's um issues where things could be happening that are illegal or things that we wouldn't... you know, as a society one, and it's being done and there's nothing that we can do about it, so to speak. What are you most concerned with when you're looking at these things? Well, I mean, if you, you're right. it, I think, you know, the concern that you raised initially of, you know, the right, these places being ripe for abuse. um If you look at the history of like, you know, people crying, people trying to create utopias, it's not like there have been a whole lot of successes. um You know, there's, You can look at cults, you can look at communes. These are places that have not really succeeded. And when people try to figure out kind of their own laws and try to live apart from the rest of society, they are vulnerable to people who are looking to kind of amass power and to enact. enact their own kind of vision and impose their own, you know, ah sense of what is right on a community. um These experiments don't typically go very well. So that would be one thing that I would be concerned about. Make sense? Yeah, well, Kira, thank you so much for coming by again and kind of talking to us about what's happening in the world. Um, really, really thankful. And, and another thing I, I want to, I want to just, just personally thank you for just the work that you do as a journalist. mean, anybody listens to our show knows that I'm a big fan of journalism. and, and I just, my heart goes out to you because of kind of the abuse that you all, you know, have to endure and- I'm sure it's a thankless job. I like being a teacher, you know, like like you're doing this thing, know, it's necessary It's important. You don't get paid enough, but somebody's got to do it, you know, and why not me? So like thank you for being that person Well, I would say right back at you, because I think these conversations about politics and faith are so important to be having. So you guys are doing really important work as well. Oh, awesome. Thank you. Hearts. Hearts. is something my kids taught me how to do. Yeah, thank you so much. And to our audience, thank you so much for stopping by again. Make sure you like, subscribe, and do all that fun stuff. um And until next time, make sure you keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care.