From Faith to Fall Out Boy: John Kasich on Religion, Rock, and Redemption

Former Ohio Governor John Kasich joins Faithful Politics to discuss his new book, Heaven Help Us: How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods, and Build a Future. Kasich opens up about the tragic loss of his parents that led him to deeply explore his faith, his unlikely friendship with a pastor, and the powerful community stories that shaped his latest work. But it’s not all heavy topics — Kasich lightens the conversation with dad jokes and a touching story about meeting Chester Bennington from Linkin Park backstage before the singer’s untimely death. Listen in as hosts Will Wright and Josh Burtram explore how faith, music, and small acts of kindness can leave lasting impacts on people and communities.

Guest Bio:
John Kasich is the former governor of Ohio and a two-time presidential candidate. He is the author of Heaven Help Us: How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods, and Build a Future. Kasich, a lifelong Christian, blends humor and humility in his reflections on faith, politics, and pop culture — from reading Isaiah on Mondays to rocking out to Metallica on Fridays.

Resources & Links:

Heaven Help Us by John Kasich: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780310368823
John Kasich's Website: JohnKasich.com

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, faithful politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching on our YouTube channel, we are so glad to have you make sure you like to describe and do all that fun stuff. I am your political host, Will Wright, and I'm joined by your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? And today we are honored to have with us former Ohio governor, John Kasich. And he's joined us to discuss his new book, Heaven Help Us, which highlights how faith communities are bringing hope and change to struggling. neighborhoods and you know, we're hoping to kind of dig into this learn more about the stories that people are sharing and Yeah, we were just so happy to have you with us governor Glad to do it. I hope it's a positive experience. I hope so too. I guess we'll see how it We'll see how it goes, you know. aah I guess maybe to start us off, maybe you can just tell us a little bit about your faith ah and what your faith journey was like, because I'd imagine it's somewhat integral to ah this book that you wrote. Well, when you say faith journey, you talking about from when I was a kid, or what is it you want to know? So, OK, as a kid, was a Catholic and uh still liked the Catholics, admire them, uh was uh extremely involved in the church, uh started as an altar boy, a commentator, speaking to the Holy Name Society and all that stuff, uh and went away to college. uh Faith was less important to me. It was like a rabbit's foot. You know, if I needed something, I just pull out the old rabbit's foot. And then in 1987, my parents were killed by drunk driver. It was a devastating time. And I did a deep dive into who I am as a person and did I even believe in God. And so that was in 87. You see, that's 13 and 25. That's 38 years ago. and I am still digging in. That's pretty amazing. You know, well, I just think it's amazing that you went through this really traumatic experience and instead of allowing or that experience essentially pushing you to a place of, you know, ignoring it or trying to repress it or trying to not think about it, you actually took the bold move of facing what was going on. So, well, Josh, so what happened was when my father had died on the site, my mother lived but never regained consciousness. And I went into Pittsburgh. so I met a young uh preacher. name was Stu Baemig. He's still a friend of mine today. And Stu was there with me. And I... He started, I don't know what he was doing, and I said, I'm sorry, you don't even understand, and I was very, very upset, I mean very angry. And he said, well I know one thing, if your mother had a choice she wouldn't come back, which I was like a thunderbolt, that was good. And then a couple days later he asked me where I was, vis-a-vis my faith, which I didn't have a good answer for, and he said, look, you have a window of opportunity, you can go through the window and find out where you are. on this or you can, a window is going to close and your pain is going to go. So I just, you know, it's your choice. So I said, oh, it's a window of opportunity. Let me go through. And so it was a really, um, in some respects, a painful but exciting journey from the standpoint that it gave me an opportunity to really assess myself and also to dig down deep as to, I don't want any, uh, any, uh, you know, sort of like rabbit's foot. I don't want any, I'm good. I want to know what the truth is. So that's what I did. And it's been incredible, a great journey. actually, because I went through that, it also helps me when I see other people who go through those kinds of things. So I'm free. I'm happy. I'm open. I have a great time. uh read Isaiah on Monday and I go to Metallica on Friday. So what the heck? And you're wearing this Ohio State shirt so you must be a lobbyist. You're sucking up here and we didn't even get started. This is pathetic. Isn't that crazy? Well, you know what? I got this shirt. I lived in Ohio for about seven years or no, no, it was like probably nine years. And my wife is Ohioan and I was there when you were governor. So thank you for your service. And I also really, really wanted you to be the one in 2016 who was the, mean, I don't know if that's awkward or not, but I, that's what I, for sure. was all the Democrats were for me. Well, not to go off on a tangent, but to be honest, me and my wife are both libs, and we would have voted for you, to be honest. Because you had a debate where you're like, yeah, I like Fall Out Boy and Linkin Park. those are like, Linkin Park is one of my favorite bands. And I'm like, hey, this guy. I'll tell you a funny thing about Lincoln Park. They were in Columbus and I went to the show. It was a spectacular show and I got to meet Chester who, you know, since that time he died. I don't remember if it was drugs or exactly what it was. I can't remember now. But I got to go backstage and meet him and I actually got him to call my daughters and they knew I was a big Lincoln Park fan and I still am a big Lincoln Park fan. But you think about so many of these great bands. You think about In Excess and Hutchpence. Now that was interesting, tragic. He died. He was extremely talented. But filling in for them that year was the band called Live. And I don't know if you know that band, but they have this beautiful song about I believe when I see my daughter, that's how I know I believe. And so anyway. Yeah, I think we should wear our our faith loosely. I don't think we need to, you know, show it off or anything like that. And you know, 16 was a great experience. And what I learned in that period was not that it mattered so much what your positions were. OK, it was not that it was. And I think it's really true today that people want to know if you get them. I mean, and that's what Bill Clinton was so good at. I mean. Hmm. was so good at letting people, well, his famous phrase, you I feel your pain. And uh if you think about Reagan, Reagan had a sort of cheerfulness, you know, that seeped through to people because nobody could really hate the man. uh But what I learned at that period was it was paying attention to people. It was uh letting them know that you had room for them, uh you know, which was really great. uh You know, and then as governor, was a great experience too because there were lots of things I could do to build the economy, but there was also lots of things I could do to help people, the autistic, the homeless, the poor, and it was all good. It was all good. Yeah, I actually enjoy hearing about that. mean, please. You know, I, I, um, I was just reminded of it yesterday. I was in DC and I had to go through the metal detector and take my cell phone out. And then I was a week ago, I was at the BMV and I'm sitting there with 400 other people and I'm reminded of Coldplay. I sweep the streets I used to own the amazing thing about, about anything politics or anything where there is sort of a public persona, ah then maybe wealth can be included in that. Maybe not, because that's more enduring than fame or glory, right? ah But what's interesting about that is the journey out of it. My wife just told me that Michelle Obama had an interview where she's saying that, I didn't hear the interview, but this is the first time in her life she gets to do things for herself. She doesn't have to do it for somebody else. But it's so amazing how you can go from the top to out of the top. And you know what? I find it to be funny and amusing. And I wish I still had these people around to help me. And I still do, but not like I did. em so, you know, it's really interesting about how it all works. And fortunately, having been in and out and all that, I guess because I keep moving, I've never been sort of down about not being in. You know, I don't miss being governor. had my time. I was in Congress for 18 years and I left. I quit that. I mean, I finished didn't run again. I didn't miss that. But I've always had lots of things that I'm doing, which is, know, when you there was a woman today in the gym who's been a tremendous triathlete and she's probably not going to compete anymore because she's older now and she can't win. I think she's having a very hard time with it. So, you know, it's all interesting. It all fits together, doesn't it? I'm sorry if I'm boring you guys, but you know. not boring me at all. mean, I was actually thinking about the same thing in the gym today. Just thinking about, mean, I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm 39. I know I'm not old, but I'm oldest I've ever been. And I'm just thinking, and I'm just thinking, oh man. Oh my word, the future is still in front of me. And yet like I think about how much harder it is to lose weight, how much harder it is to have energy, how much all those things. And it's like, Am I facing a midlife crisis? I feel like I need to talk to my wife. I feel like I want to go get a Ferrari, but I don't have any money to do it. That's his pastor's salary, Governor. I just don't know what to do with it. But so it's really interesting because thinking about moving out of the political spotlight, which you were just talking about, like when, at what point were you like, I'm good? I'm done, I'm moving on. So you did write the bid for uh president. And then once that didn't pan out the way you thought, what was the moment where you're like, I'm going to go pursue something else I'm done with politics for the time being. when I was running for president, my guys really hate when I tell this story. I'd worked so hard and I was still optimistic and things were headed in the right direction up north for me. After, you know, I started well in New Hampshire and I'll beat all these guys and except for Trump. But the day I dropped out and because I didn't want to keep going and take people's money, I didn't feel good about it if I didn't think I could win. So I got out and I went behind this building and I cried. And that was the end of it. And I went and visited my daughters and my wife knew what was happening. But, you know, I knew I was going to leave the governor's office. But look, when I left Congress, there were a bunch of things I wanted to do. I wanted to do television. I wanted to do some time on Wall Street. I wanted to speak. I wanted to write some books. And so I had all these things that I was doing. ah And then as governor, when I knew that was coming to an end, you know, I started a business. you know, you've got this book that I've written now. I am still doing television. I'm still speaking. I mean, I'm doing all these things. And what I try to tell people is it just doesn't life doesn't stop. You you just got to figure out where you want to go so you can continue to continue to be somewhat fulfilled. And, you know, it's it's it's cool. It's cool. And but I also find now that I have a little bit more time. I've been meditating lately. I've been meditating for about a year or two. You know, 10 minutes, 20 minutes a day. That's been very useful. ah Things are good. I mean, I just don't have any real regrets. I'm mad that Will didn't go and write me in for president, but you know. Hey, you had my vote, Governor. You had my vote. I mean, like, we don't need to get into that right now. we don't. I don't even do politics anymore. I mean, I'm an analyst, so I have to talk about it. it's not, I mean, what interests me today is the culture, where we're headed and where we are and what's motivating people and where we're going. And so this book, I love this book, by the way, Heaven Help Us, because it really shows there is a political connection to it, even though there's no politics in the book. And that is, if you want to run for public office, you need a clubhouse. If you want to bring massive change in the area of the homeless or the hungry or the autistic or whatever, you need a clubhouse. And your clubhouse can be the church, the synagogue, or the mosque. And in that clubhouse, you can get some material support, some psychological support, and some people who will endeavor to join your mission. And that's where it kind of is today. And I think it's cool. And it's fun. I do too. so your book, Heaven Help Us, How Faith Communities Inspire Hope, Strengthen Neighborhoods and Build a Future. ah This is not a Christian book, is it? Well, I'm a Christian, but I wanted to put, but I made sure that we had the great Abrahamic religions in there. mean, there's a couple things about the one of the coolest stories is this guy, a member of uh a Jewish congregation in Omaha who had a dream. It was so vivid. Have you guys ever had a dream so vivid that you wrote it down? I really haven't, maybe a little bit. Sometimes I remember, but his dream was so vivid it almost. uh I would say paralyzed him. was just the opposite and energized him. And he had this dream and 15 years later he accomplished it, which was to get a piece of property and have both a church, a synagogue, and a mosque on the same property with common area for people to gather and talk. And it's in Omaha. It's the only place that I know like it in the entire country. And it all came from a dream. And it honors the three great religions. Now, you know, I think God's pretty big and pretty strong. So I don't think I need to... stick up for him and why I put all three of them in there. I think he's okay with it. Yeah, I think so. I'm curious about the origins of the book. ah mean, there's probably a moment, you know, of reflection for you where you felt a need to produce this book. So kind of walk us through like what... look, first of all, it's my second faith book. My first one was called Every Other Monday. And it's a story about I actually sent it to a number of theologians to read one, you know, years later. And I thought and they all told me they thought when they got it, it was going to be really kind of silly. But they all said, boy, it was a powerful book. And some people actually got it out to their parishioners or whatever. ah What happened was uh Russell Moore, who is a great guy. Maybe you guys have had him. You've had, you know, my great, Trump or Longman. But Russell was telling me during COVID that the pastors were being pounded on to do politics in the pulpit. And I thought, if you want to be a politician, then take your collar off. And if you want to be a preacher, then go to seminary, right? So I thought, okay, I'll gather these theologians together, including, by the way, NT Wright, believe it or not. And uh So Oz Guinness, others, Gail Beebe from Westmont, uh Trumper uh Russell didn't really participate, but he knew about it. So make a long story short, I was going to try to get a statement that pastors could hang behind, and we couldn't even get the first two words together. So one of my friends said, why don't you just write a book? then I wanted to write about these institutions, letting people know that, there's positive in all of it, and uh it's really cool. It's not like how many times you blessed yourself or whatever. It's like, hey, you get in there and go solve problems. I really, that's really cool. one thing I love about it is that there's a couple options that people have when they are looking at the issues in our world, right? They can kind of take the approach where they're gonna bury their head, right? Like the ostrich, not really pay attention to it, or they can just get overwhelmed with despair. or they can make a difference, which it sounds like the people that you're highlighting are doing that. And you want to have been and want to continue to be in that category of people that are going to do something. But this idea of cynicism that really feels like it's a default mode for Americans today, like essentially if nothing else, then we're so cynical of the other side that we can't even listen to anything that they say. We're so cynical of politicians. We don't, we don't, m you know, we're very skeptical of them. And how did this, how did the idea of cynicism uh come up in this book and in your purpose? And how do you feel like you're addressing it by showing these stories? Well, we know the country's polarized and we know there's a lot of people that don't know what to believe in anything, particularly if they hear something that they don't happen to agree with. So better for me not to listen than to try to sort it out. Look, I like that I've just been telling this story lately. Let's say the three of us were in a car in Ohio and we're driving. and there's some guy following us who's like a devout atheist, you know. He just hates everything we stand for. And we're on the freeway, and he's behind us. We don't know who he is. And we see a car in the snowbank. So we get out of our car, and he gets out of his car, and we start trying to push the car out of the snowbank. Now, Will doesn't look like he's all that strong. So between me, kind of old and not very strong, ah we can't get that car out. We're rocking it back and forth and this other guy's pushing it too and we're falling, we're slipping and then finally we push the car out onto the highway, right? And we high five one another and we get to know this guy. And we don't really care what he thought. We know that he was a good guy helping us out and so we decided, okay, let's go have a beer. And all of a sudden we're starting as friends. And our differences are OK. It doesn't mean we have to hate one another because we just did something. So when people say, well, what can I do? Hands off. I don't want to be at those things. OK, if you want to go to hands off, that's fine. Good for you. But what are you doing on Monday? I just think it allows us to have. Let me ask you guys this question. If the Secretary of State and your trash man went on vacation, who would you miss more? Nice man. get into it. And when you're something that's good, it's something good, you feel good about it. And so if people do good, it's gonna break down walls and silos. And it may also get people to understand that religion is not, now, I was just talking to Trevor about this the other day and a of my other friends. uh know, God's not to be trifled with. I mean, we can be happy here and I'll talk about all the grace and everything, but there's an accountability that comes. And we better be just aware of it. know, God's not grandpa just patting us on the head. But I, and I was asking them, do you think that the fact that people know in the end that there is an accounting, does that turn them off? And Tremper and my other two buddies said, no, I think it's just the opposite. Because when all you are is mush or this nice little happy talk, that's interesting. But when you know that there's something else to the story, that it's attractive. And isn't that, what we hear about churches today, which is, are they really, what's the meaning of them? And so I think I'm most interested in getting people to believe in God, to like Jesus, to understand who he is. And then we'll get to the other stuff later. But if we're selling the other stuff first, they ain't Okay? But if we sell what these people can do in these churches, then we can get to the other stuff later, which is about all of our sinfulness. that's all about, and what that's all about to me is that's all about, I think it was Dallas Willard that wrote, um I never met, but I had a phone relationship with, he said that finding God, finding Jesus is like taking a plug and plugging it into the electric, electricity of the wall. And When we sin, we're just unplugging, and we all do. We're always, I'm always unplugged, okay? Cause I'm an idiot, all right? To begin with, but secondly, If you know, I wonder sometimes that when I die and go to heaven, you know what, you know what the father may say to me? He's going to say, do you know how much stuff you could have done? You moron. If you would have just listened to me and followed me. mean, there's so many things I could have done with your life, but you unplugged. It was the opposite of Dylan. Dylan went electric, but then I unplugged, right? Yes, yes. we tell people about the potential to be plugged into that power source, doesn't that give them meaning and hope in their lives? I love that, yeah. I think so. What do think, Will? I think you are ah onto something that needs to be screened from a rooftop ah because I think a lot of what you're saying, and you even alluded to it earlier. ah You didn't necessarily use these words, I think what you're, the broad category of what you're alluding to is like, we just really need to humanize people ah because I think. you know, including different stories from different faith backgrounds in your book, I think is really important. And it's something I really appreciate it because I think that we oftentimes develop these, you know, narratives about people groups or, you know, like political parties and, then just assign this broad sweeping stereotype across them without actually getting to know them. And like, we could still disagree with them, but we should never dehumanize them. uh No matter what and it's one of the things that I really love about this podcast because like, know, right before this podcast, we were supposed to record an episode with the white nationalists. So, you know, like they reached out to us and I'm like, hey, we're going to talk to you and we're going to treat you civilly and I'm going to treat you as if like you're a son or daughter of God. I don't care what you believe, you know, and And I just think we need to do more of that. And I'd love for you to maybe talk a little bit more about the human stories in your book. You had already talked about one. I'd love for you to just kind of talk about another one ah of impact that's being made in people's communities. Well, I just got a letter, a note here from Lisa Libertory. She's a lady in Long Island who has an autistic son aging out, worried about where he's going to go. And I find that this is a very big deal uh in the community of those who have sons and daughters who are autistic, like what happens to them. So she ended up working with her church and other churches and they created these group homes in Long Island. What's interesting uh is that I was doing an interview with CBN and the sound man is from my hometown here, Westerville. And I was telling a story of a woman who has an autistic son and she's freaked out about what's going to happen to him. And I asked her, so I told the story and didn't give her name and he, he contacts me afterwards. He said, if you'd give me the lady's name, I have an autistic son. Maybe we can work together to get something done. Did we ever follow up on that? Jebby? Remember Melissa and the man with CBN? did it. We connected them. Okay. I'd like to know where that is. So, but that's a cool story, right? I mean, those are two people now that, cause I don't know that we have any group homes out here for the autistic. And, and so there's a case where, there's another one, there's another one. Well, you know, there's a story in here about the foster care business and, or the situation where it's dark and it's dank and over in Portland, Oregon. where they say God doesn't exist. And I find out there's more good stories out of Portland, Oregon than anywhere else. Anyway, so I think he's alive and well out there. Well anyway, so they went and they just spruced up the whole issue of the foster care operation, treated the employees well, they've connected. And I just got an email from one of the guys involved. He's in Kentucky, because I told him go to Kentucky. I know the former governor. And now I know the current governor and I think we could do something to combine the faith with the secular and we can. I mean it could be good so and then there's another story in there of course about the murder in the church in Charleston. And that's all about forgiveness and how hard fit forgiveness can be and how it waxes and wanes. But. I put it in there because we all need forgiveness, don't we? I know I need a lot of forgiveness. And I need to give forgiveness. And it's not easy to do, but it's the right thing to do. So I don't know. lot of good stories. It's good. It's fun. It's great. Some great stories in here. How about the guy? He's feeding. Oh, he's a friend of mine, and you should get him on the air. He is Hal Donaldson, the convoy of hope. Have you had him? He's feeding 571,000 people every day around the world. He goes to disaster areas, but he'll only go if there are churches down there that are willing to help. So it's not a one and done. They can carry on some sort of a ministry. He went from nothing, living on food stamps and all that in a trailer park as a young man to where he's now feeding a half a million people a day. The danger with putting hell in the book is that people read that and go, I can't do that. Forget it. This is way above me. You know, there's also ones in there that are not that difficult, like the literacy kid. Man, he's a great guy, by the way. He's got Steph Curry doing an intro on his video. um And I think he was hitting a deep three while he was recording the video. And to take a long story short, it's very cool. It's just, it's great. I hope people will read it and get inspired and do something. know, figure out what it is. So this brings up in my mind, so especially in light and not to get too political, although this is faithful politics. So we get pretty political on here. Yeah, just next question. I got used to that. I understand. uh No, it's so we have so many cuts going on, right? There's a lot of people that are worried. There's a lot of people. that are afraid that we talk with a community yesterday that was up in D.C. and they're talking about how the church is going to have to step up because people aren't going to have the same kind of government assistance that they might have had in the past. And I just would love to hear your thoughts on that. And do you think that that is true and like that churches and worships, places of worship are going to have to step up more? And should they be doing this? Anyway, what do you think? Well, what do you think? You're the pastor. What are you asking me for? I just show I just show up and listen to you. I mean, I think, yeah, yeah, you're gonna have to step up and do more things like food banks and things like that. But, you know, there's another element to all this, and it is like. Look, first of all, if we keep spending and I don't care whether you're a Democrat, Republican, liberal conservative, I don't care what you are. If we keep doing what we're doing with our debt. And we know where the scripture talks about debt. And we know what the Jubilee year is. That's how I first got involved with Bono through the Jubilee year and trying to help the countries in Africa with debt forgiveness. But it's going to sink us because if people don't trust the United States, we have to run a printing press to finance our debt. And when we do that, it's going to dramatically hurt the value of everything we work for. And our kids and grandchildren will have very little of what we would want them to have. It will be a full-fledged crisis. So we have to deal with the debt. And that doesn't mean you do it overnight. It means you do it over time. But secondly, you know, if you take a look at, you know this whole thing about the airports now and the air traffic control system and all that. This thing should have been modernized 25 years ago. Hmm. But there was no character or spine in the people who should have done it. That's one of the problems with politics. It's like, I don't want to do anything because that might get me in trouble and somebody might not like me and all that kind of crap. they're treated like, you think the Cardinals are treated well at the conclave. You ought to be a United States senator. People gather and. Of course, then the minute you walk out, no one cares who you are. But people forget that. And they want to stay there because it's so nice. But uh a large part of these issues are fixing, reforming. It's not necessarily, for example, in our tax code, we ought to have something that encourages people to get long-term care insurance. We don't have anything like that. It's minimal. So when you get old and you get sick, you've got you let the free market kind of help you to have a place you can go to where you're going to be happy, you're going to be respected, and all that other stuff. ah Not that it's true that some people are going really need the government help, but there are many different ways to do things if we think creatively. And the problem with government is mostly if you do something that's creative, there's only two things that can happen. One, you get pounded into oblivion because it didn't work out. Or secondly, uh you just as soon not do it because I don't need to take a risk. And I'm a man of change. And my colleagues, my friends, we're people of change. That's how we balanced the federal budget. And it was a glorious time. We balanced the federal budget, paid down the debt. The economy was growing like crazy. The same thing in Ohio, which my team did out here. And so we've got to stop thinking about cuts, we got to start thinking about a better way. Now, some cuts are inevitable, but what's the better way to do this? I will tell you this. When it comes to Medicaid or Medicare, for example, we need to have a total review of our health care system. You can't do this thing in pieces. You need the insurance companies, the doctors, the hospitals, the providers that all these people should be in a room. The pharmaceutical industry. And what is the best way to create a system that rewards keeping us healthy rather than treating us when we're sick? And when we are sick, what's the best way to handle that? But you'd have to have people who are going to shed their robes of what they're connected to and walk in a room and be legitimate to solve a problem. It's amazing what you can get solved if people work together. So that was a diatribe and a half. I must have been waiting in there somewhere. love diatribes here. Yeah, I love them. I am kind of curious, because you said something earlier that made me think of this uh in conjunction with something that you've written, where you mentioned sometimes we forget that good is not only happening in America, but it's flourishing. And I think it's true. I think there is more good happening in the world than we are uh shown. I've kind of taken it upon myself to actually try to find it. Like this is going to seem like a really dumb thing, but like I get those like Twitter notifications uh and one of them I get is uh an account that gives me a dad joke every day. So I read a dad joke first thing and I go and they tell my, you know, my 11 and nine year old the dad joke and they just kind of do this like, all right, dad, whatever, you know? But for me, like I get joy out of that. because I like telling dad jokes. But I know that was kind of a dumb example, but like... not. By the way, you know who the smartest man in the Bible was? Abraham, because he knew a lot. uh It took me a second because I don't read my Bible as much as I should. uh But I finally figured it out. But I am curious, like, why is it that like good stuff like that just doesn't break through? ah It's boring. This is the thing about human nature, right? If the ladies cross in the street and the Boy Scout crosses the street with her and she goes on with her life, but if the Boy Scout rips off her purse, it's on the news. Can you believe what that Boy Scout did? It's just human nature that we kind of. If we could one got one lady once told me she's international reporter. She said if you could make the middle interesting, I'm interested. Because the middle is kind of boring unless you can figure out how to spruce it up somehow, right? I mean, it's just it's it's our kind of our in some respects are fallen nature. We you know, bad news. We get attention and remember it's there are ways to package good news. If you ever watch. Golf, I mean, I'm sorry if you do, okay? But if you watch golf and you see a major championship, or if you watch the World Series, or if you watch like I'm watching the NBA right now, me and four other people, you know, when they do these personal stories of people who persevere, like this gymnast, what's her name? The great gymnast who couldn't compete, she had what was called the. I forget what they call it, where she couldn't figure out where she was in the air, Simone Biles, and how she's come back and won a gold medal. That's a good story, but it's packaged right. We've got to package more good stories. They need to have an edge to them. If you read this book and that first chapter on the shootings in Charleston, it ends up being a good story, but It's not easy, right? I mean, it tells it in such a way that you, maybe that's not the best example, but I just think there's a way in which you can package good things and people will tell me what you guys think about that. Yeah, I mean, I think that, I mean, I just think about the gospel, right, which is the word means new, right, good news. And I think about how Jesus came and yeah, he, the way that he packaged it was the freedom from the things that have been holding people down and the oppression. And, you know, I think that there is a way that we can... it. Yeah, we can bring that out and communicate that. You know, I think it's an amazing. wasn't it? mean, the story of John the Baptist, right? Who's sitting in a prison saying, who are you? You know, it's so interesting to me. And Jesus doesn't quite answer it. You know, the lame walk, the blind see, the poor eat, you know, blah, whatever, however he says all that. But there's there's sort of sort of an edge to it. You know, in a way, do you understand what I'm saying? I may not be communicating this right. I just think good news, good news can sell if it's described in the right way. And by the way, when we talk just back for just to a second to Charleston, because this story is just so stuck in my mind and I would love to meet those people down there someday. ah But it hasn't been easy for them to go through forgiveness. If you read the book, you know, we forgive, we celebrate that, and then we realize over on, did we do the right thing? And the good news story is forgiveness can set us free. And I think we all have people or things that people that we don't forgive in some way or another, don't we? I have, I have some. that I really need to get on it. I need to do better. I mean, I completely agree that we all have to work through that. it's like, doesn't, it certainly is not a switch that you can turn on and off. And so when I think that Jesus is talking about forgiveness, I'm pretty sure he's talking about a process that is a continually cyclical kind of thing. why I admire those people down there in Charleston who, I guarantee you the Lord is gonna, I mean taking care of those who were killed and he's gonna take care of these people, I have no doubt in my mind. Yeah, I just wanted to say just one thing. know Josh has a question, but so we did a documentary actually two years ago called Heavenly Homeland. It's a five-part documentary that kind of just walks through sort of Christianity in America, church and state, all that other kind of stuff. ah The last episode was focused on sort of grace and mercy of the Christians because like the previous four episodes, we... we sort of focus on stuff that wasn't all that flattering to Christians. uh The first story was the South Carolina A church. Yeah. And what I did was uh we started with just the audio from the court hearing where the family members, uh you know, are looking at a video of Dylan Roof and they're coming up just to kind of say their piece. And you could hear the like I mean, it kind of gives me choked up just thinking about it. Like, the pain in their voice and them saying, I forgive you. Like, looking at the person saying this, and it's just one after the other, they're doing this. And I want to tell each to say that in case somebody listening or watching it isn't familiar with sort of this story of forgiveness from the congregants. uh I mean, it's just super powerful. m You know I have a buddy I've known for 30 years, 40 years. uh He was having trouble with his brother. How's your brother? You we can know people for like a lifetime, never ask them about things like their families or whatever. He said, yeah, he says I have a brother but my brother really doesn't like me because when my father was dying, you know, he took care of him and I wasn't around. And I said, well, why weren't you around? He said, you know, I was too busy and all that. I said, you know what? Why don't you call your brother and tell him you want his forgiveness? And he did. And guess what? It's fixed. That's amazing, dude. Yeah, I mean we all have those people. It doesn't mean we have to forget, but we have to forgive, right? We don't have to forget. Is that right, Josh? I mean we don't, we have to just forgive. Wish them no harm, you know? I don't know if we can't forget. And I actually think probably that process of forgiveness is the only way that you could actually get to a place where even like that emotional memory that you have of the pain or whatever. is not going to be there. So in that sense of the forgetfulness, you would hope that at some point, and depending on what happens to someone, mean, you may never get there. I don't know. mean, it's a tough, tough thing to forgive. And I think that God is looking at our heart to understand, are we going to continue to push forward into that understanding, right, that kind of radical forgiveness is a model of what God did for us. And it's like, there's this amazing idea that we are ordinary people capable of extraordinary things. Like think about this, the story of the Church of Charleston, where they were ordinary people put into a very extraordinary situation in which now their faith, their ability to forgive, their willingness to even start to jump into that or even move into that. is severely tested. it's just a uh sign to me and another, just more evidence to me about how we can access some pretty extraordinary things inside. Even if we are feeling maybe purposeless or we don't have a big stage or whatever it is. the opportunities we're going to be presented give us a way to turn that into something extraordinary. like going through this and seeing all these stories and hearing them and working through them, like have you seen any patterns on how ordinary people respond to these extraordinary situations and get them like basically are able to accomplish amazing things um when they probably never had in their mind. that strikes me about this is just think about how grounded they were in their belief in God and in Jesus. I mean, if they had started as just, you know, kind of people that kind of wandered through religion or whatever or never even had any, think about how much, how they had to have had this so embedded in them to even have that kind of reaction, which is really Excuse me, when you think about it. I mean that church functioned like incredible, And a lot of it is true with the Tree of Life at the very end of the book and how the outpouring of people of different faiths will, of different faiths from around the world responded to that slaughter. Those two stories just so, I know they're well known. And there'd be some argument as to why they're in there, but they were so stuck in my head, both of them, that it was hard for me to let it go. But you know, then that's that question of faith, you know. And I was just talking to some people about this the other day, faith. I think it's a gift. But it's like having a physique. You know, if you don't go to the gym and exercise, you can lose your muscles or whatever you have. I think the same thing is true with faith. If you don't exercise it somehow, you can lose your faith. But I think it's also a gift. Some people just have faith. It's remarkable. What a gift, right? It is so true. I know this pastor. who who literally has so much faith is Pastor Mark. I know you know him, Josh. This guy will literally just be at the gas station filling up his car and then like bring somebody to Christ. just coming out of his pores and he's not like necessarily overtly evangelical, whatever. He's just like, he just has this like personality about him that just people like him. And you know, and if he's just like, hey, Jesus is a cool guy. Then people are like, OK, yeah, you seem believable. Like, OK, I'll follow that Jesus. But, know, I am curious because of the nature of our show and the folks that we talked to, oh Christianity has really over the past several years gotten a bad rap because of Christian nationalism, seven-month mandate, all this other kind of stuff. Now there is a religious liberty commission and an anti-Christian bias task force. I'd love just for you to just, I don't know, give us your thoughts about all this attention. to the perceived persecution of Christians in America. Well, mean, there's always been a force that's fought against it. I mean, it's a force that always has kind of worked against it. Do I think it's any stronger now than it was? No, I really kind of don't. I'm not worried about that. What I'm concerned about is people being able to realize there is a God that back to there's a God and he loves us. He takes care of us. He cares about us through thick and thin. And he sent his son down here. Can I tell you a story that's really, I want to tell you a story. So it was about, well, I met this man. His name was Woz. And I always admired him. This is a story for people to hear that are not sure what to think about all this. He would be in the gym. I met him when he was probably 77. something like that, very fit, good golfer, the whole thing. And he told me one day that he had, he got cancer, which is really depressing to me ah because I admired him so much and that he was really struggling, okay? And that during his treatment, my wife and I would visit him, visited him in this home one time where he was in rehab and everything. So that's, this guy was, okay? So one day I was thinking, I would really like Jesus to be more personified for me. You you hear about Jesus, right? And you hear the stories, but tell me more about Jesus as a person. So I called this friend of mine and I asked him this. This is a Saturday morning, some two, like three months ago. He says, well, listen, think about this. This guy, Jesus, he comes down here, he sheds all of his divinity. And he, uh He doesn't have to, he does. And he comes down here and he's uh berated, abused, spit upon, murdered. He says, and John, he did all that for you and me so that we could have a way home. And I said, that's pretty good. That's pretty good. I like that. So every Saturday I go walking with a pal of mine. And um he was questioning all this and I was telling him. about this situation with Jesus and how he is. walking up this path. The weather is horrible. It's sleeting. It's hailing. It's raining. We have umbrellas. It's just nasty. Now, I called Woz about two or three months ago. And I said, Woz, I mean, it was about two months ago, three months ago. said, Woz, how are you doing? Because the people in the gym knew Woz, but they never called him or anything. And so I was like the person to tell how he was doing. He answers the phone and he says, Johnny, we're at the end of the road. There's nothing more that we can do. I am dying. And by the way, I am in hospice. There's nothing else that can be done. And he hangs up. Because there were nurses there. I have no idea where he lives. I have no idea what his wife is or what her name is. I have no idea how to get a hold of her. Okay, so I'm like lost. What am I supposed to do? So I'm on this path and I'm walking. And I get to this crossroads in this one horse town. On the left side of the crosswalk is a cemetery, on the right side is a playground. And as we're walking through the crosswalk, here comes this truck coming at us like really fast and it stops. And normally I would kind of like maybe wave or maybe even with one finger I might wave. Whatever or I would just ignore and keep walking on if something told me I needed to walk around that truck and thank that driver so I go around and I get to the driver's side and the window comes down and The guy looks at me and he says hi John. Do you know me? I? Said no, I don't know you he said I'm was his son What? Now cars are backing up behind him and I'm like, what? Go park it. Go over here in this lot. So I go in the lot. He tells me about Woz's wife, the cell phone, where Woz is at his home. Yes. So he gives me all this. This is a Saturday. So I know I got the call, right? So I drive over to his house on Saturday. And his son is there with the wife. And she looks at me and she said, you know, I don't know what to think about this, we never drove into that town before and we were never on that road ever before. Now, how did this happen? Right? So then I, they, they leave and I'm talking to was, they say was and he's dying, right? I'm like, was, and he's doing pretty well. I said, tell me about your greatest golf shot. He goes, well, on the 11th hole, was 190 yards. hit a four hour and I knocked it in the cup. And I said, that's really, really interesting. Was then dies and his son sends me a text wanting to know if I would be involved in helping him to get a tree erected on the 11th hole to celebrate his father's hole in one. I mean, is that just a great, no, so for somebody who's skeptical and doesn't believe, you could say, oh, what a, what a happenstance. I'm going to tell you guys, you and I could stand in that crosswalk for the next 50 years. and never have anything like that happen. And I said to Woz, are you all right? He said, Johnny, I'm fine. Yeah, yeah, I know the Lord, I'm fine. Hmm. Well, that's a remarkable story. That's an amazing story. And you know, this is my uh last question. I just, it's been such a pleasure to be able to have this conversation. And if you were to... Like one of the things that you talk about is that faith institutions can magnify the power of the individual. They can take the individual and able to magnify that. And I would be happy for you to elaborate that on, elaborate more on that. But my question is that like when people are right there, they're wondering, hey, how can I get involved with this? I don't really know where to start. I want to join in. I feel this call. I mean, obviously we want them to read the book, but where else would you have them start after reading the book? What would you have them do? know, I think that's probably one of the missing things in the book. It should have been a how to now and which I could do if if I can do another book. This woman who I mentioned her has the son who's autistic and she's freaked out about what's going to happen. I said, well, you need to go. Do you go to church? If you don't go to church, you ought to go. But you go in there and you just talk to the leadership of the church and say, look, I got a problem here. Can you help me? Now, if the pastor would ever says no, well then you need to find another church. But who wouldn't say, yeah, yeah, I think we could do something. Let's look for some property or let's have a cupcake sale or whatever. Let's do something. And so I think you said it so well. The institution magnifies the efforts of individuals to do good things. I think that's really right. And think about how much, you know, one of the greatest problems in the world today, my wife has a little ministry, she doesn't call it that, but she visits her olds. These are people who are lonely. Think of every church had somebody go and visit somebody who was lonely. I mean, it's just simple stuff that makes us feel good, So anyway, I've enjoyed you guys. Did you think this was the way this was going to go? I think Will was ready to fire a couple of questions at me, but. I absolutely love this. know, like former military guy, I had to like, you know, change up tactics. I had a whole laundry list of very like rigid, structured, like interview questions, but clearly you are a master at debating and having conversations. And we really enjoyed just having you. yeah, it's been unbelievable. Thank you so fun. I hope you guys keep going because we need you, right? We need you to get your voice out there and let people know that it's safe to go into the water. It's safe to go in. Exactly, but you might want to just look first. Well, you know, and then there's Jaws, okay? And then there's Jaws, right? Yes. All right, guys, thanks so much. Let people know about the book, would you? Maybe it'll spark some real change. Absolutely. We're going to let people know about the book and to our listeners and viewers, this has been Ohio, former Ohio governor, John Kasich and talking about his latest book, Heaven Help Us. And we just appreciate you coming on, John. to, so thank you so much, governor. God bless. you.