Fixing a Broken Democracy: Meredith Sumpter on Ranked Choice Voting

88% of Americans believe our political system isn’t working—and they’re not wrong. In this episode, Will sits down with Meredith Sumpter, CEO of FairVote, to unpack one of the most promising reforms in American democracy: ranked choice voting (RCV). With over 800 elections already conducted using RCV and growing bipartisan support in states like Maine and Alaska, this episode explores how RCV reduces negative campaigning, empowers majority rule, and encourages candidates to actually engage with all voters—not just their base.

Meredith explains how RCV works, where it’s spreading, and why local communities are leading the charge. Can a voting method really make elections more civil? What would it take to implement RCV nationwide? And why are some politicians resisting it, even if their constituents support it?
This isn’t just a conversation about ballots—it’s about restoring faith in the democratic process.

👤 Guest Bio
Meredith Sumpter is the CEO of FairVote, a nonpartisan organization working to make American democracy more representative and functional. With a background in diplomacy, global strategy, and policy, she leads efforts to expand ranked choice voting and other election reforms nationwide.

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. I am your political host, Will Wright, your Faithful Host Pastor Josh Bircham can be here today. He's at a wedding. ah But our guest today is none other than Meredith Sumter. She is a CEO of FairVote, which is a non-profit group working to make American democracy more representative and functional and has a background in policy and diplomacy. And Meredith is leading the charge to expand ranked choice voting. Now, used in over 50 cities, which I just learned, as a practical solution to political polarization and gridlock. And we were just so happy to have you with us today, Meredith. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much Will, it's a pleasure to be here. Yeah, so I am kind of curious, like what brought you into this world of like voting? Because it seems like such a niche uh kind of uh area. And last I heard our election systems are the most secure in the world. So why should we care about voting? And how did you get into this world? Well, we're at a critical moment for our democracy. We're almost 250 years into this experiment, and very clearly, American voters are believing that their political system isn't working for them. 88 % of Americans this year, across all political backgrounds, across all demographics, say they don't believe that American politics are working for them, and they're largely right. So the opportunity to be able to work with local leaders in cities and counties, school boards, within state legislatures who are looking at different ways that Americans can choose who represents them. It's just a very powerful way to renew our Democratic Republic's commitment to the American people and our commitment as Americans to one another. Got it. So is your organization only focused on rank choice voting or like all the other kind of ways that people can vote? Right, actually Fair Vote's been around for uh over 30 years and it started out researching all different kinds of uh reforms that would improve representation and accountable or functional government that met the needs of the governed. So Fair Vote has a history and a background in a variety of different reforms, but over the years and as we looked at the evidence base, oh We began to narrow down on ranked choice voting as a simple and proven way for our politics to represent and work for the American people. So with ranked choice voting, you have both a single winner version, you also have a multi-winner version, which is the only form of proportional representation that is currently at work here in the United States. So while we... We work collaboratively with other key partners in the oh democracy and election reform spaces. And we have a background oh in research and advocacy supports that's helpful uh to these partners. Fair Vote is known as the national lead for ranked choice voting. And we both work as a think tank uh as well as a support partner to the local leaders across the United States who are exploring bringing these reforms to their communities. And for the person that may not have ever voted through a ranked choice voting system, can you explain what it is and what benefit does it provide the voter? No, absolutely. So with ranked choice voting, voters can rank their preferred candidates. So you pick your top choice and you have the option of ranking backup choices. And if your first choice doesn't have a chance to win, your ballot simply counts for your next choice. Candidates in these elections need a majority of voter support to win an election. So the benefits are, you know, for voters, ranked choice voting means greater choice and more say in who represents them. And then For candidates, means campaigning for a broad majority of voter support will and actually getting things done. Whenever I think of new things, and maybe ranked choice voting isn't new, but uh new to the public probably, ah we always have this thing of everybody wants better, nobody likes change. ah So what problem does ranked choice voting solve for the average American? Well, I think it comes down to why so many Americans, nine in 10 Americans believe our political system is broken. And there are really two main reasons for this. Candidate incentives, and then what we think of as a lack of meaningful voter choice and say. So first, we should focus on the candidate incentives. Our current system, uh As you know, rewards politicians who attack each other and are beholden to smaller partisan bases in order to win and keep their seats of power. Most of our elections currently are decided in the primaries where our party's most ardent supporters are voting, not the general election in which most Americans are voting. And so these successful candidates are often rewarded for appealing to more narrow partisan interests. And as a result, our elected leaders as candidates, they can win office with the support from just a fraction of a fraction of voters. That means that in order to win and keep their seats of power, they don't have to listen to the majority of what their voters want. They really only have to listen to a narrow partisan base of the voters that uh vote in the primaries. So candidate incentives is, I think, the first reason. And then second, it really comes down to uh our uncompetitive political system that really it doesn't give voters meaningful say. And the data on this is clear. Voters, they're unsatisfied with our choices. And they know that because of how most districts are drawn to be safe for one party or the other, our votes often don't matter. by the time we get to the general elections. And it's really, it's no wonder why we feel unrepresented. You know, I'd mentioned before the data from earlier this year of 88 % of Americans believing that our politics no longer works for us. Last year, we saw 85 % of Americans across all demographics saying that they believe their elected leaders don't know or need to care what they think, and they're right. And it just comes down to a lack of competition in our elections, these elections more so being decided in the primaries versus the general. It avoids voters from having meaningful choice and meaningful say. What's the history of ring choice voting? I mean, I have heard it in the past couple of years and I've heard it more. Excuse me. But is there an origin story for ring choice voting? Did it start here in America or did it get imported from somewhere? Well, actually, ranked choice voting has been around for uh over 100 years in the United States. It's also the law of the land in countries like Australia, in Ireland, and in Germany, all of which use various versions of ranked choice voting. uh But really, was a, you had a proliferation of localities using ranked choice voting uh early last century. And then, Those numbers declined as uh we moved to an election system with simple computers who could only choose binary choices. This is like the 1950s, right? It was A or B. So you saw this very innovative election system that really resulted in a fulsome expression of voter will be set aside because of what was then modern technology that forced binary choices. So see that the number of those localities declined. And then after Fair Vote was founded uh in the early mid 1990s, we began to do research on the various voting reforms that were out there and election reforms that were out there. We began to work in support of uh local leaders who were trying to experiment with how voters were able to select who represented them. And what we saw just over will over just the last eight or nine years, we've seen a real proliferation of American communities and jurisdictions choosing to adopt ranked choice voting and being overwhelmingly happy with the results. um Since Maine adopted ranked choice voting statewide in 2016, we've seen a fivefold increase in the number of jurisdictions and an eightfold increase and the number of Americans who are using ranked choice voting. So it's an exciting time for this reform and a meaningful time for Americans who are looking at different ways that we can ensure that our governing and our political systems are representing and responding to all of us. That's so interesting. So in order to measure the efficacy of like rank choice voting, um is the better measurement like voter turnout or like candidate quality? how do you kind of measure whether or not rank choice voting is a good thing or bad thing? think it really comes down to ensuring you have majority winners and that you have a majority of a voting populace who's invested in the leader that is representing them. What we've seen with it, well, we have about a 20-year evidence base spanning over 800 ranked choice voting elections here in the United States. So the evidence base on other things that this reform does is very clear. There is... We've seen research on greater levels of voter turnout. We've seen research on greater levels of voter engagement because elected leaders in order to win these elections, can't just rely on first choice votes. You have to go out and engage voters who may not vote for you first, right? So uh it's the reform that encourages people to talk to one another, to listen to one another. We may not always agree, but we need to understand what the needs are of all of the voters whom we're asking for their vote. And I think that's a very powerful aspect of ranked choice voting. Majority winners, higher levels of voter engagement and voter participation. And the outcome, of course, are elected leaders who in order to win reelection the next time, they need to ensure that They're keeping a majority of their voters happy. And that means voters who will vote for them first as well as voters who may not vote for them first, ah but who can be persuaded. And that's why this reform ah is so powerful for voters, but also it helps us to identify the most competitive ah elected leaders who are willing and able to build broad coalitions of support and deliver for them. I am curious on um how would all of this change like campaigning? oh You know, when candidates are going to Iowa, like to go campaign to become president, like do you see their messages shifting somehow? And if so, like maybe give us an example of that, uh whether made up or real. No, all of this is real. All of this is real, which is just, it's such a joy to see, see this reform take off because of the, the real material benefits for voters and political parties alike. Right. So again, so with ranked choice voting, candidates need a majority of the vote to win. So candidates must compete for the second choice and third choice votes from their opponent's supporters. this lessens the incentive to run negative campaigns well. uh And this is the case both in general elections. So uh we have research in places like Minneapolis and St. Paul and Massachusetts that find that with ranked choice voting elections, the use of this reform improves the civility of local campaigns. And we regularly see campaign opponents campaign together and cross promote. Right? So if you won't vote for me first, then I hope you vote for her or I want to be your second choice candidate. How can I earn your vote? Right? So you might have two opponents who both care about, let's say, transportation issues or housing. And so that you'll see them say, like, we want to be your first and second choice candidates because we believe that these issues are most important to our community. And that's been really fun to watch. But it's not just in the general, it's also the case in party primaries. So in Virginia, 84 % of Republican primary voters in 2022 said that their ranked choice voting congressional campaign was positive. And this was compared to 59 % of voters in a traditional campaign. Last thing I would say, just a very real example, you New York City is holding their primaries, in coming days actually later this month and we're seeing Democratic primary candidates there largely cross endorsing with other candidates and building coalitions in part to compete with the front runner Andrew Cuomo. So before ranked choice voting will there would just be mudslinging. But similar to uh the cross endorsements and more civil campaigning that we see in municipal elections and places like Minneapolis and San Francisco. in the RCB contest that we're seeing in the primary in New York City as well, you do have this more civil collaborative approach to campaigning that just improves the campaign experience for candidates, but also we would say for voters as well. Got it. Now, you've mentioned sort of rank choice voting being used in some states, and I live in Virginia, ah and I've never once voted through rank choice voting ah in my district. is there like, can you have rank choice voting in some districts, but not necessarily in the whole state? Because I think that's the part that's a little confusing for me. Right, well, so typically uh with ranked choice voting adoptions, they can happen at all levels. They can happen at the local level, in counties, cities, on school boards. uh And whether or not you can run a ranked choice voting election, that's determined at the local level. State legislatures can also oh decide uh whether this uh election reform can be utilized across the state in state districts or whether uh they want to use it just for federal elections. And so I mentioned earlier Maine, that was the first state to adopt ranked choice voting statewide. And that was in 2016. And the state ended up using it for federal elections and for primaries, but did not choose to use it for all state. races. So like say for governor or the state legislature. But I'm very excited to say well that just this week, nine years after uh passing rank choice voting for federal and primary elections, we had a bipartisan vote in Maine that saw the state lawmakers vote to expand rank choice voting to cover all state uh statewide races or state level races as well. So that will include the governorship that will include the state legislature. But at the same time, you have places like Portland, Maine that uses a form of ranked choice voting. uh And there are uh other communities in the state that are exploring whether or not to adopt ranked choice voting. And they can do both again, single winner for the position of mayor or let's say if you have City Council or where I'm raising my family here in Arlington, Virginia, we have a county board where they have multiple winners in a given election and there's a multi-winner version of ranked choice voting called proportional ranked choice voting that's also of interest uh to many of these communities. It's gonna be strange to have like a system of government where people are being elected um to run the country, state, district, whatever, and those people be elected by different mechanisms or at least different ways of voting, right? Because if in ring choice voting uh based on what you said, you know, it... It should minimize negative campaigning, negative politics. But then you've got other, you know, Congress members who are campaigning on scorched earth, kind of like, like a strategy. So, so like, what is, what is having like these two separate or different voting measures in the country, do you think like, due to our democracy in America? So is the question, could you rephrase the question? yeah. So in essence, like you've got one system of voting and maybe I'm misunderstanding it. So if I am, please, please tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, which is probably true. So you've got one system of voting where it's popularity contest. You you're going to say the things that are going to make people go out to the polls. But then you've got another set where you are collaborating almost, not demonizing your opponent because like maybe some of the things they're saying actually you want to do as well. So like, I feel like that's not a really effective way to run a country when you've got two different, you know, two different ways to elect leaders. Well, but you know, this is, think, one of the beautiful things about our Democratic Republic will is that the Constitution gives power to states and localities to determine the form of elections that best suit the American people, that best suit the voters within those jurisdictions. And so over the years, you've seen a lot of different innovations of different voting methods. uh And I think broadly, we encourage that. ah When it comes to, let's say, jurisdictions that adopt rank choice voting, ah that essentially just gives voters more choice and more power and say in who represents them ah versus the traditional election system where you could have crowded primaries and you have the advancement of a uh candidate from a primary to the general that is not beholden and is not campaigning for a majority of voter support, but is really beholden to a more narrow partisan base that really limits their ability to get things done. you know, bottom line, when you look at the RCV jurisdictions, what you see is that ranked choice voting rewards candidates who focus on problem solving and building coalitions across different groups, because they are more likely to be ranked as acceptable. second or third choices that increases their chance of winning. And to keep their seat of power, it's not just what they say, they actually have to get things done for their voters, all of them. And there's that real political incentive to work with whomever you need to work with to get things done. And the evidence base and the anecdotal evidence that we see as well shows this. I know we've talked a little about cities. There are two states that use ranked choice voting. That's both Alaska and Maine. And if you look at the voting records of the congressional delegations from these two states that use RCV for congressional elections, Alaska and Maine are two of the most pragmatic in the nation with elected leaders who are working across the aisle to pass legislation on issues important to their voters. uh Alaska and Maine have been ranked the most bipartisan by the Lugar Center for Bipartisanship. And it's no surprise that the two of the most independent minded and bipartisan working US senators hail from the two states that have ranked choice voting. That's Alaska's Lisa Murkowski and Maine's Susan Collins. uh But congressional aside, if you look at, let's say, what happens within a state, let's say at the state legislature level, Alaska gives an example. of how rank choice voting can get government working. uh So following the reforms passage, uh there were years, well actually before the reform was passed in Alaska, there were years where that state's legislative body was locked up by highly partisan interests. They couldn't get the basic budget passed on time. But following passage of rank choice voting plus nonpartisan primaries reform, we saw the forming of bipartisan coalitions that were leading both the Senate and the House with Republicans and Democrats and independents working together to pass legislation in areas like public health, education, energy and public security. And it's interesting when you talk to these elected leaders, they say, look, before the reform and after the reform, we still disagree on a lot. But after the reform, we are finding areas of commonality where we can agree and that's where we focus on getting things done. In recent research that was published about uh the impact of the reforms in Alaska, it does show that legislators are working more across the aisle to find those areas of common agreement and to find ways that they can deliver for not just a fraction of their voters but for the majority of what their voters are saying that they want and need. What do you say to people that, you know, take what you just said? And I'm a Democrat. you know, using Alaska on Maine as kind of an example. And I don't disagree with you, but, you know, both people are Republican, obviously. So Murkowski and Collins. So like, do you say to somebody that might say, hey, that's everything you said is great, but the system elects Republicans? know, uh so I'd love for you to just kind of speak on that. The system elects leaders who are able to appeal to a majority of the voters in their jurisdiction. This is a nonpartisan, party-neutral reform. ah It just gives voters more choice and more say, and it results in the uh majority outcomes. That is so important to that bipartisanship, pragmatic problem-solving that, frankly, I the American people are saying we need more of. uh Ranked choice voting has been successfully delivering majority winners uh in not just uh red districts and red areas, but also in blue district and blue areas and blue cities across the country. So whether it's New York City and San Francisco, St. Paul and Minneapolis, Minnesota, uh Las Cruces and Santa Fe, New Mexico, the reform, it shows diverse applications across any jurisdiction and it just simply enables the majority choice of the voters within that jurisdiction, regardless of their political affiliation, to be found and to be elevated. How do you train an entire community of voters? Right now in Virginia, we're undergoing our primaries. if I were to go into the, well, I get my stuff sent to me. But when I used to go to the voting booth, if I were to go in the voting booth and I'm like, what the heck am I looking at? How do election officials and stuff kind of get the word out when you're doing this kind of change? Right, I think, know, Will, anytime that you're going to have a change in a process or a change in how the American people are going to elect their uh representative, it's very important that you do sufficient voter education and candidate training on these changes. uh But what we've seen, and you know, when we started our discussion today, Will, we talked about how quickly ranked choice voting has grown just in the last eight or nine years. It's growing so fast because it works. And everywhere that it's used, overwhelming public support, voter support for these reforms, Americans have more choice. They have more say. And elected leaders are freed up to lead and legislate and govern in the interests of the majority. That's why so many Americans choose to run for office, because they want to serve the public interest. And this is the reform that really allows them to get there. uh So we've seen adoption spread quickly in part because the reform works and in part because you have election administrators who have the tools to easily and smoothly implement and run these election systems. uh But while the technology is all there and the tools are all there for implementation, it really comes down to ensuring that you're doing sufficient voter education and candidate training so that when you're walking into the ballot box and you're giving a ballot where you're able to have the option of ranking your top choice and ranking your backup choices, that you should know what you're doing. And with a well-designed ballot, the evidence base shows that it can be pretty intuitive and simple uh and that voters find ranked choice voting overwhelmingly simple. But again, voter education, uh the engagement of the policymakers who are administering these elections to ensure that they've got very simple intuitive ballot designs that leads to uh to rank choice voting being both a successful reform and one that you have extremely low uh ballot error rates in Alaska. It was 99.8 percent of ballots cast were valid and this is a state where many uh of the Alaskans were voting and mailing their ballot in remotely, right? So they had to do this on their own. But again, they had a well-designed ballot and there was voter education oh and candidate training so that the public knew what to do when they showed up at the ballot office or when they showed up at the ballot box and the results speak for themselves. Now, I'd imagine that if rank choice voting was easy, everybody would be doing it, right? um But it's not everywhere. So there are probably critiques, I'm sure, criticisms about rank choice voting. I'd love for you to maybe just unpack what are some of those critiques about rank choice voting and what's your response to those critiques? Yeah, well, it's not everywhere yet because we're small but growing fast, So I think what you'll see is in the years to come, more cities, more counties passing this reform, as well as more states looking at ways that they can incorporate ranked choice voting, including in races like presidential primaries, where there is concern about spoiled elections with more Americans wanting to have more say and more choice. but worried about the options that they have before them. But look, I would say like the number one challenge is just that ranked choice voting is different from what most folks are used to. So you see critics claiming that voters won't understand the change, but we rank things every day, right? So I'm a daughter of a grocer. And if the grocery store is out of your first choice of milk, right? And if you're a 2 % milk guy, What are you going to do? Are going to go with the 1 %? The whole milk? The soy milk? know, Americans, we know what we want. We rank things every day. And exit polls and ballot data tell us that everywhere that ranked choice voting is used, voters understand it. They say they like it. They say it's simple. And voters know how to rank. You know, I mentioned that the next ranked choice voting uh election that we have is coming up in a few days in New York City. New Yorkers coming out of the exit polls there. Imagine this. have ah so many New Yorkers. You have 200 different nationalities that uh live in that city. The ballot comes in five different languages. And 94 % of New Yorkers polled said that ranked choice voting was simple and easy and that they understood it. So, you know, I think for our critics, just let Americans try it. Let Americans have that choice. Let Americans decide. And then lastly, I would just say that it's hard to be for the status quo right now when, again, 88 % say our political system is not working for the American people. And our Congress today is about 11 % as productive as it was when Fair Vote was founded 33 years ago uh in terms of legislation getting passed. So doing more of the same ah is just not an option. Yeah, I agree. I actually, I support rank choice voting. Although I've never been, you know, and I've never voted in an election where that was an option to me. But everything I've learned from both you and other guests that we've had on the talk about this issue, it seems something that is at least worth a try. uh But, but, but also like any sort of em effort to push something new with our voting seems like this is not the right time, at least for me anyways, because it seems, you know, we just got through one election, presidential election, and then four years prior, a bunch of folks were talking about how the election systems aren't secure, aren't, you know, they're not fair, that a person won when they didn't really win. So like, how would rank choice voting kind of tackle that? And what what sort of obstacles do you think you have in front of you to overcome to really convince the American people, like, this is actually probably better for you. At a time when there is such low levels of voter trust in our political system, in our election system, that is absolutely the time that the American people need to be looking at ways that they can reform how they elect their leaders. And that's a discussion that happens often very much at the local level to start in cities and counties. And it's, these are the... the local leaders and the civic groups that come to a fair vote and ask for research for the evidence base of what these reforms can do for communication or training tools that they can bring back into their communities and to have discussion with people there. How are we going to ensure that our governing and political systems represent and respond to us? Right? Often that conversation happens at the local level. And then what we see happen is as these cities begin to adopt these reforms, neighboring jurisdictions take note. And then they begin to see what happens when the American people have more choice and more say when the elected leader is elected with majority support and then is accountable to a majority of their voters. They see that these elections are are easily and smoothly run and implemented, and that voters come out of the ballot booth understanding their ballot, being able to rank their choices if they want. And so actually, we're both here in the Commonwealth of Virginia. You're just outside of Richmond. I'm raising my family, as I mentioned, in Arlington. And this is exactly the example that we see happening in places across the country. Arlington adopted ranked choice voting in terms of how we elect our county board. And then we had Charlottesville just last year also choose to adopt ranked choice voting. And the election administrators of both localities were sharing information with each other about the voting system, how it worked, how could you administer it. And there were also best practices in terms of again voter engagement and candidate engagement. So Charlottesville just ran their first ranked choice voting election. to elect their city council. But I think what's also more beautiful about this, you're raising your family, you and Josh are right around the Richmond area. uh In just this spring, we saw that Richmond used a ranked choice voting system to engage Richmond voters on how the city should think about budget priorities. And they allowed for voters from, let's say teenagers, uh they were able to rank their preferences of how the city should prioritize taxpayer dollar to pay taxpayer dollars to pay for public services around the city all the way to some of our oldest voters. And it was a really beautiful thing because again, this is the reform. It gets people talking to one another. It gets people sharing ideas with one another and it converges voters and political parties. behind the candidates or the concepts in the case of the Richmond uh budget ranked choice voting uh query that most of the voters can agree on. So at a time of discord and division and a lack of trust and faith within our politics, this is the reform that binds people to one another. It's the reform that gets us speaking to one another, not to attack and sling mud, but to understand perspectives and to build consensus around the issues and the outcomes that voters most say that they want and they need. That's really fascinating. And I didn't know about the Arlington and Charlottesville connection. And I'm curious, is... Is that generally how ranked choice voting gets implemented in some localities versus others? Voting election officials are talking to each other ah because of friendships or relationships or whatever the case may be. then Charlottesville is like, hey, what are you guys doing up there in Arlington? That looks really good. uh Is that kind of how ranked choice voting is being spread throughout the country? Because I haven't seen a single commercial about RainTwins. it's not so much the policy. It's not so much the election administrators to election administrators. They tend to just share information once. they've realized that there is a lot of public support within their jurisdiction for this reform. And then they want to do peer learning, which we think is just a wonderful way to transfer knowledge and expertise on these election reforms. But really the reform is spreading because of the grassroots energy and demand around them. Ranked choice voting is spreading because it works. so... Voters adopt it. They overwhelmingly like it. And then you see like other jurisdictions begin to pay attention to what these reforms can do. Americans like having choices and voters use the opportunity to rank their candidates. Winners enjoy having a strong consensus of support from their voters. You tend to have, again, as I before, higher voter turnout, higher levels of voter engagement, more votes count toward election outcomes. In ranked-to-risk-spend elections, it's an average of 17 percent more votes. directly affect the outcome between the finalist candidates. So you have more voter buy-in and who gets elected. And that's just a very positive example at a time when uh in so many other places across the country, Americans are not feeling like their political or governing systems are truly representative of their needs or responding to their needs. So it's spreading because of the grassroots energy and voter support. behind these reforms. Fair Vote is here to respond to that market demand by supporting the local leaders who are taking these reforms and engaging their peers in building public support for these reforms before a campaign even gets off the ground. Got it. So how are folks utilizing FairVote? And what is it that you all produce, create, or provide for the public to better understand, like, Range Root's voting? But so we are a think and do tank, right? So first and foremost, uh FairVote is, we research uh rank choice voting and proportional rank choice voting. uh We have an evidence base that we provide and share to the public and to local advocates who are exploring different ways that we can improve our elections. And we have a wonderful team of election reform experts that are there to provide pro bono oh support and information and tools to local level advocates and everyday Americans who want to understand more about these voting systems, who want to understand the research and evidence base around them, the communication tools and resources that they might be able to use if they want to go door to door and talk to their neighbors or talk to local civic organizations about ways to improve their elections. So we're there for or for the local leaders and the local campaigns who are bringing these reforms to voters and asking them to consider a change in how we as Americans elect our leaders. But I think also, once a reform is passed, we're still here as the think tank that helps to support the local civic groups that every time that there is an election, there should be voter engagement about the election system, about the issues. for candidates as well. So we're a resource for the localities in the states that use Ranked Choice Voting so that they're ensuring that voters are engaged and understand the voting system and are well using the rankings that candidates are empowered. uh to uh compete collaboratively in these ranked choice voting systems and that election administrators, the policymakers, that they have their questions addressed and answered about how to smoothly implement and sustain ranked choice voting elections, whether it's at the city and county level or at the state level and also for federal or congressional elections. em What are the politics around the ring choice voting? Because I'd imagine if um I wrote my congressperson, who's a great person by the way, Jennifer McClellan, uh and said, I want for us to start thinking about changing the way that we vote. And their response, probably not something they would say publicly would be like, got voted in under this system of elections. So to change that system um risk me potentially not being reelected. So like, what would you say to that? And how do we kind of get over that hump? So actually, rank choice voting for. for candidates and for political parties, it actually makes them more competitive by bringing these elected leaders closer to what their voters want and need. So, know, as you talk to elected leaders, ah and there are some that they know how to get elected in the old system, it's a safe way for them to get elected, they're not interested in changing that, and that's natural, but I think for the majority of elected leaders, they recognize that the American people are not happy with their choices. They're not satisfied with our political system and how it is able to provide for the American people or not. I mean, the numbers are very clear. Nine out of 10 Americans are unsatisfied with how our democracy and our political system is working. And so the question becomes, how are we able to change the way that elections are run so that you're able to by earning the majority of support of the voters that you're seeking to represent. Doesn't that free you up to go and to listen and to learn from voters who may vote for you first or may choose to vote for you second or third? Isn't that a healthier way of engaging and activating our democratic republic than the current system where for an elected leader, they're giving, you if they're going to go and knock on doors in a neighborhood, they're given a list of only the most ardent supporters of them, of their political party, and they knock on their doors. They don't knock on anyone else's doors. And I think that has led to a real brittleness. of our political parties uh that is undermining the ability of our elected leaders to do their job. So I just want to give you two examples, uh one out of Alaska and one out of uh Portland, Oregon, that sort of demonstrates how this reform is actually good for elected leaders who are willing to compete and who are willing to listen to all of their voters, not just their most ardent supporters. So out of Alaska, uh the Alaska Republican Senate Majority Leader is a woman named Kathy Giesel and she represents a district in Anchorage and she speaks of the joy of knocking on doors and meeting all of her constituents who some of them upon seeing her they may say you've come to the wrong door you're not my top choice to which she says I understand that but I'm exactly at the right place I am here to listen to you and to discuss issues important to you so that I know what's important to voters in my district and I hope that I'm able to earn your vote as a second choice or a third choice. She says it's a fundamentally different way that she is campaigning that she feels more connected to her district than ever before. And at the city level, so Portland, Oregon just implemented ranked choice voting to elect its mayor and other sort of single winner uh offices, but they also have a city council in which they implemented proportional ranked choice voting for their city council just in November. And I was in Portland, Oregon in April uh meeting with the local advocates and the city council members. uh four months after, four or five months after the election to see like, how is it going? And it was just fascinating listening to the city council members talk about how they think about constituent engagement. Now keep in mind, their campaign ended months ago, right? They were elected in November, but you have leaders like Portland city councilwoman Candice Avalos, who represents the first district in Portland. And she speaks of... council members who are going out there regularly knocking on their voters doors just to hear what's on voters mind. just to introduce themselves and to get feedback on how Portland's government is working. It's not campaign season, but they're still out there taking time out of their weekends to go and knock on doors to meet their voters, all of them, and to hear what they think. So I would say it's, we understand that there will be some elected leaders who know how to win underneath the old, I would say more brittle system and they're safe. They feel safer doing that. But for the most part, when you're able to engage elected leaders on this is what your job could be in a ranked choice voting system and don't you want to serve the needs of the majority of your constituents, it's a much more healthy dynamic relationship between elected leader and voter uh that I think is uh an important way to get us back to a healthy, functioning, representative, democratic republic. That's so awesome. And I'm really, really glad to hear that Portland is still keeping it weird as a former Northwestern person myself. I think. Well, so I used to live in Bremerton, uh which is like across the water in Seattle. That's an hour ferry ride away. But but I was stationed at JBLM for a number of years there at Fort Lewis. What about you? You too? Well, I'm originally from Alaska, but I graduated from college in Washington state. So, and I'm married to a boy from Bellingham. So yes, Pacific Northwest is uh close to me too. Yeah. You're a Udub person. I wanted to go there, actually. But um very familiar with Alaska, very familiar with Canada, too, actually. But, um you know, I am curious about what you said. I'm going to just gently challenge you for a second, because uh the politicians you described seem like they're primarily at the local level, not necessarily the federal level, at least the excitement about the the change. I'm not sure. Well, here's my question. Is there a different ah willingness to adopt ranked choice voting or at least a different enthusiasm about ranked choice voting with like local um leaders than there are like, you federal Congress members, senators, what have you? think it's when you're passing election reforms at the local level. These are important pilots to uh demonstrate to state and federal level leaders who are representing that same area how the reform works. And I think that's important. You have to show the work. You have to show the evidence base. And that's why Portland, Maine adopted rank choice voting before the state of Maine. and the main voters decided that this was something that they wanted to try statewide. I uh think at the federal level, ranked choice voting, it enables more independent thinking on behalf of whether you're a senator. or a congressional representative, because again, you're not beholden to a narrow partisan base, you're a beholden to a majority of the voters who you seek to represent. And again, I think there's some, you know, we've seen a lot of, we've seen some independence in uh members of Congress hailing from Alaska, hailing from Maine. And also as well, uh hailing from Utah, where ranked choice voting has been utilized in several cities across that red state over the past several years. So it's easier, I think, to pass reform at a local level. But again, I think the resonance of these reforms and how they work, they're just simply giving voters more say and more choice, the resulting in majority winners that really free up elected leaders to do what is in the right interests of the majority of the American people that they seek to represent. And that's true whether you're at the federal level, at the state level, or at the local level. Got it. So if you are a person listening to this and they're like, Meredith made a pretty darn good case for why I want to have ranked choice voting in my neighborhood, my community. What is the very next thing a person should do? you Well, I would say go to fairvoteaction.org and find our Get Involved page. And then you can find your state or local group. well, as we had mentioned before, the RCV movement, it's really powered by the everyday Americans who see how this reform works in other places. And then they began to take steps to bring it to their community, doing that peer to peer advocacy and engagement. So again, we invite you to all join in on this go to fairvoteaction.org again find the get involved page find your state or local group and get involved in any way that Fair Vote and Fair Vote Action can support you and your community as you're considering whether to to introduce ranked choice voting or other election reforms in your locality that's what we're here for. That's great. And what's FairVote working on currently? What can we all expect coming out from your organization? Oh, well, I think this year we are seeing a lot of energy around localities who are exploring how to bring ranked choice voting uh to uh their city, whether it's this year or next. So we're working with local leaders in places like Denver, uh Colorado. Juneau, Alaska, Sacramento, and San Diego, California, even as we are on hand to provide any support that's needed as cities like New York City uh have their ranked choice voting primaries election for mayor in just several days time. uh So energy and momentum is real. It's continuing to build. We just saw, as I mentioned at the top of the show, we'll uh main taking steps to expand ranked choice voting further within the state. And we're going to be there supporting the incredible local leaders who work to make that reform expansion happen so that voters and candidates are aware of the changes forthcoming. They fully understand and embrace these reforms and the real power that these reforms enable for both the American people and for the candidates who seek to represent them alike. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much, Meredith, for coming by the show. This has been super educational for me. Again, I'm pretty pro RCV personally, and uh I will actually go to your website and check out that Get Involved, because I will get involved. So thank you so much for joining us. Pleasure's mine, well thank you. And to our audience and listeners, hey, thanks so much for stopping by to hang out with us and listen to what Meredith has to say. This is Meredith Sumter from Fair Vote. Excuse me. I got some in my throat apparently. But thank you so much for stopping by. And as always, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care.