Christian Nationalism and the Idols of Power with Andrew Whitehead

Why do claims of “persecution” surge whenever Christians lose cultural power? PRRI’s 2024–25 state-by-state analysis shows three in ten Americans qualify as Christian nationalism Adherents or Sympathizers—a durable share shaping law, policy, and public life. 

 Sociologist Andrew L. Whitehead—author of American Idolatry and coauthor of Taking America Back for God—joins Will and Josh to unpack why power, fear, and violence function like modern “idols,” and how that maps onto fights over schools, parental rights, religious liberty, and the 2024–26 political landscape. 

Moving from gut-level intuition (Haidt’s “elephant”) to reasoned analysis (the “rider”), we explore how Christian nationalism frames “liberty” as domination, why persecution narratives persist, and what the latest PRRI data reveals across all 50 states. Keywords: Christian nationalism, religious liberty, school choice, persecution narratives, 2024 election, SCOTUS, political theology. If you’re wrestling with faith, power, and democracy—and what a faithful public witness might look like—this conversation brings clarity without the culture-war fog. 

Andrew L. Whitehead is a professor of sociology at Indiana University Indianapolis and executive director of the Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA). He is the author of American Idolatry: How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church and coauthor (with Samuel L. Perry) of Taking America Back for God. His research and commentary appear in outlets like The New York Times, NPR, and Time. 

🔗 Resource Links
American Idolatry — Andrew L. Whitehead (Brazos Press): https://www.amazon.com/American-Idolatry-Christian-Nationalism-Threatens/dp/1587435764 
Amazon
Taking America Back for God — Andrew L. Whitehead & Samuel L. Perry (OUP): https://global.oup.com/academic/product/taking-america-back-for-god-9780197652572 

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. I am your political host, Will Wright, and I am joined by my favorite co-host on any podcast out there, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? It's going well. Hey, well, your mic sounds a little bit off. Do just want to check to make sure that it's the right one? I maybe it's just on my end hearing it so I will mark this but I just didn't I wanted to make sure. Yeah, no problem. Does it sound okay on your end, Andrew? Okay. All right, cool. Well, today we are joined once again by Andrew Whitehead, who is, yeah, he's a returning guest and it's good to see him again. And he is actually one of the leading scholars of Christian nationalism in America, if not the world. And he's here today to help us better understand this weird thing called Christian nationalism. So we are just so happy to have him back. Good to see you, Andrew. Hey, good to see you all again. Yeah. So for anybody watching this or listening to this that have never heard the name Andrew Whitehead, can you share a little bit about your background, and how did you come to study Christian nationalism? Yeah, yeah, so I'm a professor of sociology at Indiana University in Indianapolis and I've been here a little over five years and before that I was at Clemson University. And yeah, I've just been interested in religion kind of my entire life growing up in a religious area of northern Indiana. And then, yeah, studying social science and just trying to understand what people do and why. And I think sociology is so helpful, just really helping us understand the power of the groups that we're a part of and the contexts which in, you know, that we live in and how that affects us. And religion plays a big part in that. That's always fascinated me. then, yeah, along my journey uh as a social scientist, uh just really trying to think through how this idea of the U.S. being a Christian nation ah is so powerful. Because I grew up in an area where that was just kind of taken for granted that it was. And so just started looking into that and finding that, you know, everywhere I looked, it was such a powerful explanatory factor, right? If I knew how strongly you rejected or accepted this idea, I could tell a lot about how you viewed a lot of things. And so that's what I've been studying for a little over a decade now. So and it's yeah, it's still around. Here we are. Yeah. funny. I spoke with... uh Sam Perry recently, not the Sam Perry from Oklahoma, the Sam Perry from Baylor, which I didn't know there were two Sam Perrys. And uh he's a rhetorician, I think that's how you say it. And we were talking to him about the Doug Wilson church that just ended up in D.C. He wrote a thing about it. And I remember him saying like, this Christian nationalism isn't really something that he normally or regularly writes about. But if you study faith and politics long enough, like you're eventually going to be writing about it because there's just a blend. It's very similar to kind of like how we ended up learning about Christian nationalism. I like politics, Josh likes faith. And then lo and behold, we're talking to the former expert on Christian nationalism. maybe we can just start there, just define some terms like what is Christian nationalism? um And then maybe if you could... kind of help us better understand like how do we know, you know, if something is, you know, or should have the label Christian nationalism and how people know if they are Christian nationalists. Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah, so when we're talking about Christian nationalism or when I'm writing about it, I like to always preface it that this term that I'm defining is you know, we created it or I helped create it through a lot of empirical research. So it isn't something that we're just kind of making up out of thin air, but after a lot of surveys of the American public and analyzing those, we're able to see, you know, what exactly Christian nationalism is. And so the way we define it is a desire to see a very particular expression of Christianity fused with American civic life and wanting to see the government at all levels vigorously defend preserve this particular expression of Christianity as central to our policies, our national identity, and things like that. And so what's important about that definition is it points to a very particular expression of Christianity because as we know there are lot of expressions of Christianity that operate here in the U.S. but when social scientists or folks are analyzing and writing about Christian nationalism it really is a desire to see this one particular type of shandy privileged. um And the way that I like to explain it is that this particular expression of Christianity does refer to some of the historic orthodox Christian beliefs that we all kind of know about, right? That God in three forms and Jesus was God's son and came to earth and resurrection, you know, some of those key things. And it does refer to that. But this particular expression of Christianity also brings with it what I like to call extra-cultural baggage, right? So it isn't just about saying Jesus is Lord, but it also brings with it these other cultural views that we see are particular to this expression of Christianity, and in many ways particular to the fact that it kind of flourished here in the U.S. So I'll just like list out these kind of cultural markers, this cultural baggage, um and what we see over and over, and the reason that we know these are true is again through surveys of the American public and interviews, we see that this is a part of when people think of the Christianity of Christian nationalism. em for Americans that embrace it. ah They're thinking of these things, right? These things are part of their Christianity. but not all Christians, again, hold that to be true. So one is a comfort with authoritarian social control, right? So it's this desire to see a strong leader, a ruler, and rules come in and enforce order, right, and make the world as they believe it should be. um There's a desire for traditionalist social hierarchy. So certain people at the top, others in the middle, and others at the bottom of our society. There are strong ethno-racial boundaries around national identity. and social belonging in this Christianity of Christian nationalism. And that has been a part of our history here in the U.S. um And then finally a comfort with populism, uh which kind of opens them up to more conspiratorial thinking. So this idea that the U.S. really is for the common man and woman and that there's these elites of academia or religion or politics that are stealing this country away. So all those cultural elements get wrapped up with the Christianity of Christian nationalism. And so when we look at the words people use when they're talking about politics or what they want to see the US look like, we can start to get a sense of how strongly they embrace Christian nationalism or maybe are resistant to it or reject it. And that's really key for me. Like I don't really, I don't ever want to try and determine is somebody a Christian nationalist or not because it isn't a binary. It's more of a spectrum. People embrace it more strongly, maybe they're just sympathetic to it, or maybe they reject it. As we find Americans are all across there. But um that's kind of the long answer, but it's super important, as you said, to really know, okay, what is it that social scientists are talking about? What is it that these journalists are talking about? And again, it's that desire to see a very particular expression of Christianity elevated and privileged in American civic life. Yeah, that's really, really helpful and really nuanced. And that's what I appreciate about it, like trying to think about what are the particular parts of this set of beliefs that actually make someone a Christian nationalist, right? Because if you were to take my beliefs and you were to take a Christian nationalist, quote unquote, beliefs, let's say the ideal Christian nationalist that fits exactly what you just said, right? Then I don't know how many of them would align. I don't know. Maybe more than I'd be comfortable to say, you know. uh But probably a lot of them would align. But then there's something else deeper. There's this sense of we're willing to use force. We're willing to be unfair, essentially. Almost like the logic of the thinking is, look, This is truth. So it's almost like the medieval thinking of like, look, we're going to protect this. Like if someone's a witch, we're going to kill them. Why? Because maybe as we're hurting them, their soul is going to be redeemed and that's more important than their body. Right? So we're going to kind of sacrifice and whatever. What am I getting at? um It's very nuanced and yet it is affecting so much. policy, our culture, our understanding right now. And I guess my question is we hear things like Christian heritage. We hear things like anti-Christian bias, right, that they're using, almost like there's these, would say constructed crises against, well, not many, uh Will Wright has an entire series on Substack. I'm just going to throw it out there. Get on Substack. you're not subscribed, subscribe, do it because it's great. And it says weight worthy oppressed ones. And it's all about this idea that Christians almost like this manufactured. So how should we understand this kind of language? Like is it they're lying? Is it most people are genuine? They're being deceived. Like it's just really hard to suss out. And I would love your insight. Yeah, no, those are really good points and questions. I just want to highlight something too that you were saying where, m you know, there we can line up a lot of those beliefs and they do, you know, across various expressions of Christianity, there are there is some alignment, right? There's going to be overlap. But then there's that something else that you're talking about. And that's such an important point because, um yeah, in my second book, looking at kind of the key idols of Christian nationalism, one is power, but it's a self-interested power, right, that they're adhering to. And so, know, one of the forms of overlap of lot of expressions of Christianity is bringing your faith to bear on the decisions that you make in the world, right, or the policies that you support. So in that sense, a lot of us overlap with folks that embrace Christian nationalism because we believe our faith should influence the policies we want to see take place, right. So for me, as a identifying Christian, uh my beliefs think we should care for the poor, and I would love to see the government care for the poor, right? So in that sense, my faith is, you know, pushing towards a certain policy. Does that make me a Christian nationalist? Well, again, no, it doesn't. And why is that? Well, the reason why that that we highlight is that the power of Christian nationalism that they desire is a self-interested power. It's the ability to make the world as they want it to only serve the in-group, right? So passing policies that only protect their privileged access to power and making the world how they want it. A lot of other Christians will seek political power or use political power, but the goal then is only to expand access to flourishing, expand access to being able to have a say in this democracy, things like that. So looking at the Civil Rights movement, right, they were obviously... ah religion and Christianity particularly was a motivating force but it was always about expanding access, right? Making others, you know, able to have a say about what the US should look like or how we care for the least of these, all those things. So when folks are like, your faith is informing your political decisions, that's not Christian nationalism. That's something that in a democracy people of all faiths or no faith at all should be able to participate. What makes it Christian nationalism is saying God has said this is how the nation should look, aligning with these particular beliefs of this expression of Christianity, and we will do anything, even set aside democracy, in order to see this come to pass, in order to enforce it. And so, yeah, Josh, I think what you're highlighting, right, is right on. There are many expressions of Christianity, a lot of overlap, but it's how we use power, how that power is used. Is it to the benefit of all, or is it to the benefit of only a few? And I think that's where we start to again be able to suss out exactly what this is, where those lines are. ah And so Christians should have a seat at the table, but not the head of the table. And they certainly shouldn't be the only voices at the table. But Christian nationalism, that's the desire. ah They are not going to be supportive of like Reverend William Barber and his Christian faith and the things that he wants to see come to pass, right? They are not interested in that Christianity being privileged. When they're talking about anti-Christian bias, Josh, you know, they aren't talking about keeping, you know, progressive Christians um or saying progressive Christians not being able to have a say is anti-Christian bias. They're pointing to themselves, right? It's only our particular expression. If we can't have all the power, then we're being persecuted, that type of thing. Have the views or the issues that Christian nationalists have held as important to them shifted over the years or generation or the stuff that you're studying now in the past 10 years? If we looked at similar data, if there is similar data 50 years ago, would we still use the same definition of Christian nationalists like then or are we using a new definition? Yeah, that's a really good question. um So Christian nationalism and this desire to see this particular expression privileged in the public sphere has been with us, you know, since before the dawn of the U.S., right? So folks have been, yeah, using that and thinking through that. And it takes different shapes and different moments of American history. And so the one we're in now really is in response to the 1960s and then the rise of the moral majority in the 70s, right, which was responding to the civil rights movement. the gender and sexual revolution, right, all the upheaval of the 60s. And so we see the moral majority come to the fore. And so we're really living in kind of that era of Christian nationalism. So some of the topics and issues that were key then still are, right. So for the moral majority, they were really, uh they saw kind of the three legs of their uh stool was divorce, homosexuality, and abortion, right. And all those were kind of what they said they were about. We know through um work of historians and then too looking at what was taking place, race was a big part too. That was just unspoken. They weren't going to say that, but they were responding to um Brown v. Board of Education and the Civil Rights Movement and the Voting Rights Act and all of that. So that's been a part of it and so we're still seeing that now. But kind of more to your point, I think even in the last decade, since Trump came on the scene in 2015, there have been some shifts and you can actually see this in things like what Reagan was saying in the 80s versus what we see happening now. I mean, there's clips that folks will use, you know, where Reagan's talking about immigration is like a positive for the US and we should welcome folks. And that is how we are. We know we're great. And we know today that is not a part of what the political and religious right are saying. And so there have been shifts even in the last 20, 30 years of exactly what is highlighted and how. Some of that was, you know, the xenophobia and fear of immigrants was dormant and then this has brought it to the fore. But what got kind of highlighted, I think has shifted and changed. Yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. you know, we're thinking about things like education, school choice, parental rights. em Like we have those classic things, right? You're talking about homosexuality, abortion and divorce. And of course there's overlap there, family, right? Marriage, what do we do with children? Things like that. And yet this has become like a battleground with people yelling at, in PTA, you know, uh meetings and at school board meetings and book banning and... all these different things, people accusing one side of pornography and it's disgusting. And it's hard to disentangle myth from reality. It's hard to disentangle propaganda from substance. And I would love for you to help us do that. Why is Christian nationalism latching onto schools so strongly? Or adherence, is there a strategy in this? if so, where's that strategy coming from? I guess one question is who are the, who's the deceiver and who are the deceived? Are there just like, is it just, hey, this is Satan? Like, right, my Christian pastor hat, hey, this is Satan, brother, the principalities and okay, and that, and sure, I can, on one level, but then there's actual practitioners and adherents here. And so I'd love to hear like, yeah, just why schools and who's leading this. Yeah, no, it's a good question. So, you one of the key cultural elements that we mentioned before about of Christian nationalism is a desire for a traditional social hierarchy. So it's this idea that the nation, um nations only function well, again, if they structure themselves according to this traditional social hierarchy, which means, you know, men lead and women support and follow that uh you know the family is the key to society that marriage is reserved for men and women and they should have biological children ah and they should be productive. And again, this is the way that God has designed it, the way that nations should run, and this is how it should be. So key to that, obviously, is children. And they see those children somewhat, um yeah, kind of in a utilitarian view that we need to ensure that they are like us because they will be the next generation and they will be the only ones that continue this forward. um And so... key to that is their education. And so again, this has its roots as far back as any sort of public education or education itself in this nation. But then thinking to the 1970s where with the segregation of schools in the 60s and 50s, we see this rise in segregation academies, white Christians taking their kids out of public schools and sending them to private religious schools that um lo and behold, were mostly white. Liberty University started as one of these. Jerry Falwell started as one of those back in the day. And so there's always been a fear of how education takes place and if parents have control and the right to say what they want to say or where their kids are taught. um And so that's been a battlefield for decades. um Yeah, again, key to that is that God has designed it a particular way and we need to ensure that we follow that and that the nation follows that. uh And so, yeah, again, I think part of the way that Christian nationalism works is a will to power to benefit us. And so it isn't as though, you know, these parents would just say, you know what, like, I don't want my kid reading a certain book, but that no kid should be able to read a book. And that's that difference, right? That people or other families wouldn't, couldn't make that decision on their own is that they believe we need to make that decision for everyone. And so that's again that will to power. so um yeah, the family um where kids are like in schools and education, that's always been key to what they see as the battlefield for the future. Yeah, that's wild. So I have to ask. I've been reading a lot of Jonathan Haidt lately. um Now I'm on the anxious child. Because my kids are at the age where it's like, they're asking for technology. So I'm trying to ask you. uh But, know, Jonathan Haidt in his book, The Righteous Mind, talks about moral foundations and there's actually a really cool like test in there he could take of sort of like these six moral, key sort of moral foundations that he lists in there. Care and concern, know, like sanctification, disgust, what have you. Have you ever looked at like what the moral foundations are, uh broadly speaking, of like Christian nationalists? Like what are the hills that they are willing to die on? Yeah, no, it's a good question. You know, I did look into this early on, it's been years and years ago, and there was a paper published not too long ago, I'll have to email it to you, while you may be interested in this, where they're drawing on height and the foundations and looking at folks that embrace Christian nationalism. How do they score on these different areas? And off the top of my head, I can't remember the exact findings, so I don't want to misrepresent the article here. um But if memory serves correctly... there were some of those moral foundations that you would expect, like justice and purity and that type of thing. But there were some things that they found in this one study, because I think is authority a part of a moral, yeah, they didn't see a lot of support for authority within that. But there could be other ways of interpreting that finding. And then to the weight of a lot of other research that shows a pretty strong authoritarian bent. I'll have to send that along to you, but off the top of my head I don't have a deep knowledge of what all they found. Yeah, just real quick and then Josh has said that, but uh in the book, there's a link to like take that like personality test or whatever. it's really fun. Like Josh and I both took it because I took it and I was like, Josh, you have to take this because I got to see where you land. And like as you would expect, like him and I are pretty opposite. Right. So like, like my, my purity score is basically non-existent. Apparently I'm so much. I'm the least pure person at least on this on this show ah So it's it's really fascinating. Anyways, that's that's all I want to say about that I would love to ask you just like a couple questions, um Andrew, about your, it's the latest article that you brought out, Christian nationalism and the vote for Donald Trump in the 2024 presidential election estate level analysis with Perry. And I would love to just kind of talk about that a little bit, because it's so fascinating that basically I'll just, I'll actually. I would love for you, like people that may not be familiar, could you just give kind of the main thesis of uh that paper and kind of your findings there? And then maybe that can spark some conversation or question. I just think it's so interesting, uh this data, and I would love, I would like for it to be shared if you can. yeah, I mean one of the big things that we tried to do with this study is that For the 2016 election and 2020 election, we gathered individual level data or used individual level survey data and were able to measure individuals where they score on Christian nationalism, how strongly they embrace it or reject it, and then ask them who they voted for, and then control for all these other factors, right? Like are they Republican or Democrat or how politically liberal or conservative are they? Gender and where they live, all this stuff. And what we found over and over in these individual level surveys in the past couple of elections is that Christian nationalism is strongly associated with support for Donald Trump or voting for Donald Trump. it either other aspects and important factors to that like how they view racial issues or immigration. uh you know, those are all a part of this as well. But what's different about this paper is that we were finally able to use data from Public Religion Research Institute, PRIRI, and they gathered enough survey data from people in every state, all 50 states, to where you could actually create an approximation of how many people in a state are at least sympathetic or really supportive of Christian nationality. So we could look at, you know, I'm in Indiana, what percentage of our population is at least sympathetic to Christian nationalism or... um You're in Virginia, right? Yeah, we're a Virginia score, so all 50 states. And then what we did was take all those percentages, you know, the state level of Christian nationalism, and then look at the percent of the vote for Trump. And we're able to look now at the state level, because as we know in our country, it's about the Electoral College. It actually isn't if there's more people in a state or like at the individual level. It's like if the state goes, that's that's what matters. So what we found when we control for all these other factors is that more folks that are at least sympathetic or who strongly embrace Christian nationalism in a state uh more likely that state has a higher vote total for Donald Trump. yeah, looking at other contextual variables. And then we also found that, um you know, the level of education in a state, which we kind of took to understand as a measure of kind of working class, right, percentage of folks. So yeah, is it more blue collar or white collar or what does the state look like? And we found that um in those states, Christian nationalism percentage was even stronger. So there's something about Christian nationalism that was really latching on to this kind of, um you know, populist appeal and folks feeling like they're being left behind. This was particularly powerful, right? It had more of an influence. And so that really kind of resonates where folks may feel like this economy is leaving them behind or what is the hope. uh An explanation like Christian nationalism that says, gives kind of this pride of country, that God is on our side and that Trump is that representative, um you know, is very attractive. And so we kind of see evidence for that. um And so in those areas of higher, you know, uh levels of working class folks, Christian nationalism was particularly powerful. And so that was kind of the key finding. Now at the state level, Christian nationalism matters, and then it really matters in places with high working class populations. Can you just describe the Likert scale that you use to measure? Because I remember, I think the first time we had you on, I had asked you something about that because your scale goes adherence, sympathizers, and correct me if I'm messing it up because I think PRI uses a different scale. Can you talk about the methodology? Yeah, definitely. in our first book, Taking America Back for God, Sam and I used uh six question scale or measure. So these questions are things like the United States should declare itself a Christian nation or the federal government should advocate Christian values. And every respondent could either strongly agree, agree, disagree or strongly disagree with those questions. And what we could do is, you know, create a basically a point system for each question, depending on your response and add that together. So people that strongly agreed with those questions, them all up, maybe they score a 20. know, at the highest end of the scale, and everybody that strongly disagrees with those, they may be a zero. And what we found is that Americans are spread all across that spectrum from zero to 20. And that's really important, because it isn't, again, this either or, but a lot of Americans are somewhere in the middle, right? They may just be sympathetic or just kind of... you know, I don't know, and there they are in the middle, but it still matters. um And so then we were able to kind of break that scale into four groups just to help make it easier to talk about. So we labeled them ambassadors at the top. These are the people that strongly embrace Christian nationalism. And then accommodators are that next group from kind of the middle of the scale up to where we would see the ambassadors. And these are people that may not be at the school board meeting trying to ban the books or whatever, but they are the people that wouldn't speak up. you know, to say no, we shouldn't do this. They're probably saying, well, if any kind of religion is going to be privileged, it might as well be Christianity, right? They're kind of accommodating of it. And then we have resistors who are kind of the mirror image of accommodators. They're uneasy about it, maybe not fighting actively against it, but they don't really like it. And then rejectors are those that reject it. um Yeah, and then PRI, they asked a number of questions building off of our work um and slightly rewording. And we've been rewording the question. to sense them and they use adherence as the top group, sympathizers are that next group and then resistors and rejectors. um And so yeah, that's the key, like even when we continue to refine these questions and make it really explicit about Christianity, all the findings are exactly the same. It'll change the number of people that maybe are adherents, that number may grow or shrink, um but how strongly it's associated with these various political positions or what political positions it's strongly associated with, that never changes. Like from a decade ago till now, it just strongly predicts all these things. So to us, no matter how you measure it and the different ways of measuring it, we see these consistent associations and so that's been that's been a key part of the story. Man, that is so profound. You know, I have so many questions about that, but I actually want to move and ask you about another article that you published in January of this year with Perry about Christian nationalism being negatively related to insisting on ethical standards for political leaders. And what I want to do, I want to paint a picture because here's kind of where I'm at right now. Right, had someone, a good friend, love this dude. One of my favorite people in the world actually. And he's like, dude, you're being too influenced by your left friends and your left co-host and conspiracy theories about Donald Trump and all this stuff. And I'm like, dude, just show me the data, bro. Just send it over, I'll look at it and I'll make my own. Show me the source material. I don't really ever get much and it's not that he won't do it. I'm not saying anything about him. I'm just saying when I've done this with other people in the past, I don't get a lot most of the time. em But I would love for you to kind of help us understand because I see these correlations. Christian nationalists don't care about ethics as much. Not that they don't care. That's not the findings that they don't care. And I know that there's a spectrum. but they don't care as much, they're less likely. So if you could even help us understand what less likely means. And then, so we have this, this political, we don't care as much and we vote for Donald Trump. And it just feels like this kind of like, it's this pattern that's being exposed to this puzzle. And it's like, I would love for people to at least open their eyes to entertaining the argument and looking at the data that you're presented. Could you help us understand the findings of that paper? Especially what does it mean that they're less likely to expect? yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, what's interesting about that paper is, yeah, we. These were Sam's questions. I filled out some survey data and he put these on there about, yeah, this demand for ethical leadership. And the questions are essentially something like, and I won't get them word for word, but um even if it costs our side political victories, the leader should be ethical or should do the right thing or whatever. So it really kind of highlighted like, you know, insisting for ethical leadership, even if it kind of costs your side of victory, right? And what we found was, again, thinking about that scale of Christian National It's the people on the very left and the very right, right? So who strongly reject it or who strongly embrace it. These are the people that are most likely to say leaders need to be ethical, right? Even if it costs us victories, our leaders need to be ethical. So then what we find interesting in the case we kind of build is that for those who strongly embrace Christian nationalism and here are insisting on ethical leadership, um how do they square that with a political leader like Donald Trump who, um you know. And this is a story well told for the last decade, know, cheating on his wives, cheating on his taxes, right, you all these litany of examples that he would even boast about of not being an ethical person and kind of saying like, well, that makes me a good leader is because I'm unethical and all these things. And then to the turn lately towards Russia and supporting Putin, which we see evidence for in the political right and the religious right. And Putin, we should know, um has kidnapped children and murders journalists and political opponents like he's a very bad dude, not ethical. And so how to square those, right? Where for folks that strongly embrace Christian nationalism say we need to be, this ethical leadership is key, but then we're gonna support people like this. And I think then it does come down to, it really is measuring um in some ways this um religio-political in-group identification, right? That this is my tribe and these are my people and this is our leader. And we see kind of evidence of this in what they say where, you know, Tony Perkins famously said the first time Trump was running that he wanted somebody to punch the bully in the mouth, right? We, and then Robert Jeffress, a pastor in Texas, mega church pastor saying, um We aren't electing a pastor in chief. It's a commander in chief. So now the in-group is saying, well, we just need a strong leader. So again, that idol of power in Christian nationalism, it's about somebody who will defend us and our interests. And that in some ways is the most ethical thing. It's not that they're personally ethical, because he's not, but is he going to ensure that we have power and that we are protected? And in that sense, now we're... that's the ethical thing to do is to protect the in-group. And so that's some of what we're kind of showing and I think what is important about that piece ah is that it really highlights when you feel like you're in uh your in-group is under attack, you're gonna be willing to do almost anything to protect it. Wow. So, um I do have to ask, know, like we, in America, we have in God we trust in our money, we say God in our Pledge of Allegiance. mean, sort of the mention and the presence of sort of Christian symbols are all throughout like American culture. Yet, there is this like narrative that Christians are being persecuted. And I can't remember if it's like Ryan Burge or somebody else reading somebody's stuff about this like myth of being persecuted. And they're asked like, why do Christians feel like they're being persecuted? And I think his synopsis was because they're being told they are. And uh I'm curious, like, how does the data help explain this persecution complex when the ground truth seems like it tells a different story? Yeah, you know, it's really interesting. It's kind of the dual kind of... narratives that somehow live alongside one another that, you know, we're constantly victimized and persecuted yet this country is ours and always has been ours and we're, you know, overcomers and all this stuff. And so I think you're right. One big part of it is we live in a time where there are really strong, kind of almost impenetrable media bubbles that people can self-select into and will tell us the narrative that yeah, is politically powerful and persuasive and some of that is fear because we know fear drives people to the polls and to support a group um and so the more that they're told or that we're told they're coming for you, you need to be afraid and now you need to line up and support this. um It's a really powerful tool and that's been a part of politics for a long time. um And so in that sense, think, yeah, Christian nationalism is anything that's unique there. It's that's what politicians and folks do for, yeah, for time immemorial almost. um And so, yeah, I think that's a key part of it. And some of it too with Christian nationalism is that populism that's a part of what this is. um in that narrative of it's about the common man and woman and these elites are taking it away, you need to fear them. And it just opens people up to feeling victimized, persecuted, uh more likely to adopt conspiratorial thinking. And some of that too is a very individualized view of reality, that we're all these kind of individuals and it's a difficulty in seeing how political structures or societal institutions can affect us, for good or ill. um But it's kind of the reason that people are poor is they all made individual mistakes, right? It isn't that there are kind of these larger forces that predispose certain groups, right, or historical explanations for why certain groups maybe are poor. um So that plays a role in it as well, that it's, yeah, these individualized explanations are key. Yeah, that really makes sense how much people, you know, it's such a complex topic and there's a lot of confusion around it. And um it's so important that we have these kind of conversations to understand it. And, you know, it's interesting with the Christian persecution narrative, because I was in that, right? um I remember in 2015 when I saw the rainbow um colors over the White House that I, my initial, my response, default response, the elephant in the terms of Jonathan Haidt was not pleased. It was not happy. There's no celebration in that. It actually was a mixture, if I'm totally honest, um of disgust and fear. And I have actually made some, some really good headway in that actually like I'm no longer afraid or disgusted and that's huge because it's like these are people in the image of God you know it's like this is and that's not I wouldn't treat anybody like that I never would but it's like that internal default like of how you view and and the reason I'm bringing this up is that it's like we're looking at like There was this massive swing, felt like, going from George Bush to Obama. There's this massive swing. And the kinds of progress that was made that some people would consider progress, others regress or just evil, right, or whatever it is, uh having to do with LGBTQ rights, having to do with these classic things, abortion, and... These things are defended with religious terms now, right? There's this massive swing and now we've seen this, we've seen this reaction against it, I think, this kind of reaction against it. And so we, people were really like, they were catalyzed through that Obama era, I think. And then Trump came and they had someone that was a catalyst. And so like, I just would love to hear your thoughts. when we're looking at these laws coming out, so like very likely Willis said it, and I would say very likely Obergefell will be overturned in the fall, if that's really, or some aspect of it, right? If it's not the whole thing, some aspect of it. Now, most people are going to say, many people, can already predict this is bias, bigotry, Christian nationalism, all this stuff. Then on the other side, they're going to say this should have been a state's issue anyway. This is just law. This is just precedent. How can we as like just normal people look at these issues? I know you're not a legal expert, but like looking at this as a sociologist and understanding in your research, how can we discern those parts that are truly like Christian nationalism versus this is just a good decision? Good, you know, good law, good You know, this is just good sense and we have to choose some moral bearing for this law and it happens to reflect Christian, Judeo-Christian values or whatever it may be. How can we discern that? Yeah. it's a good question and I think you know what I would what I would really push towards and say is that if we are committed to living in a pluralistic democratic society, which America has claimed to be from the beginning and obviously was very imperfect and got better over the years and only since only until the 1960s, right? In the Voting Rights Act, did we actually have equal access to voting in the political process, that type of thing. So we're relatively young in this, but Instead of saying, you know, this law or that law should be this way or that way or reflect certain groups, I think our commitment should be to the fact that we both equally value or we all equally value uh the democratic process and the fact that these are the rules we're all going to agree to play by. Whether our side quote unquote wins or loses, we will respect the outcomes of elections and we will respect the right of our political opponents to exist. And we will not undermine access to the political process or the vote. Or interpreting law will be quote unquote fair, but at least consistent, right? So if we say we're going to Roe v. Wade, which happened, say, it's a state's rights issue. um OK. But then when something else comes up and we say, no, the federal government should be able to blanket and make the claim or the uh choice for all states when it's more conservative, then that's not the equal uh application of the law. And so I think that's where we should be is um really pining for, working towards the fact that the political process, um our laws should be decided and applied equally, right? And consistently. And that should be the key. um Not that a particular group, political or religious or otherwise, should have more of a say or not. um And that's, I think what's key is that, you know, for those that um embrace Christian nationalism we see again this desire or willingness to set aside democratic norms and it gets them power and defends that privilege access to power for a time. But, m and again, they're acting in fear that they'll be out of power, so they need to defend it now. But m in the end, it just destroys it for everyone. And so until we can live in a place where we can respect and understand that there are gonna be different beliefs, religious or otherwise, but that we all value a democracy and a sharing of power and a deliberative process and the equal application of the law and all those things, m which right now is not happening. It's going to create a lot of turmoil and pain and suffering for a lot of groups. And that's kind of what we see taking place. You know, um this is our last question, but years ago, we had a chance to talk to Andrew Seidel from Americans United. And he said something on the show, which at the time, like just my ignorance, I think Josh and I had been pretty honest, like we didn't know anything about Christian nationalism when we started this podcast. But he made a comment about uh every major historical thing that's happened in America could be tied. to Christian nationalism in some regard. ah And it didn't really resonate with me then, but looking back now and reading and studying and stuff, it's almost like I get it now. I get it. I can see it. School choice, all kinds of other stuff. ah And what made me bring that up is, the five years we've been doing this, I think I've heard the term Christian nationalism in the news a lot more. than I normally have, know, ProPublica's got people writing on it. The Bull Works got like a religious reporter, you know, like that you're starting to see people start to report on it. But I do think that there is like a there's like an education gap or or something, because I listen to the Daily. They did and they did an episode about school choice a couple of weeks ago. Not one mention of Christian nationalism or, you know, like that whole sort of like history. So I'd love for you to give our audience, uh media or journalists, because I know that journalists do listen to our show. ah What are some ways that people can identify Christian nationalism ah out in public to just be able to just name it? Are there any sort of tricks or things that you teach your students to identify it? if not... you know, then like what books would you recommend people to read? Yeah, No, it's a really good question. uh And one that I kind of touch on a little bit in my latest book where it's like this, I think I call it a field guide to Christian nationalism. Like how can we see it out in the wild? um And yeah, I think in a lot of ways understanding those cultural elements of the Christianity of Christian nationalism when people are talking about like this is the way that our families and society should be structured, right? According to gender and sexuality. um This is the way that these are the people that created this country, white land-owning men and... we need to celebrate that narrative. Let's not talk about the fact that the majority of them are slaves, right? But let's just celebrate the fact that these guys did it. You know, those are parts of that narrative. When they're talking about, you know, Christians being persecuted or victimized, that's part of that populism element. That in this country, you know, folks can be Christian and... live and operate. mean, when we were doing interviews for our first book, we had folks telling us who, when we scored them on the scale, strongly embrace Christian nationalism, that this was right after Trump was elected in 2016. They like, yeah, we can say Merry Christmas now. And they believed it, like they really felt that was true. And if you remember, that's what Trump was saying, like, now you can say Merry Christmas. And people could say, they could say that, you know, all through the Obama years, going back, I know I did. ah And so, you know, these are parts of that rhetoric. But I think too, some of the aspects of... uh Yeah, fear and a desire for power, protecting it in group, that we have to win this country back, this country is going on the wayside, all of those things. uh Those are a lot of common markers. um And I think... Yeah, connecting a particular outcome of this country with this historical narrative of Christianity, we've got to get back to these roots. And the best way to do that is to just get power and maintain power. I think those are things that kind of start to highlight uh what we're talking about or what's being used, these boundaries, ethno-racial boundaries, right? America, I mean this is really recent too, the vice president talking about America is not an idea, it's a place. I that is really, really incredible redefinition of what this country has always been about. It's always been about you're American if you assent to democracy and believe in these values and ideals. It isn't about skin color, it's not about where you're born, right? Any of that stuff. Well, it's somewhat about where you're born. But people can become Americans because they say I will abide by the Constitution and all those things. So those are really key parts of it when we're talking about those ethno-racial boundaries, traditional family structure, authoritarian social control. Those are the ways that I think you can start to really see what's taking place around us. That's really cool. just for our audience listening, um the sirens wasn't around you in case you're looking at your mirrors. I wonder where those siren sounds are coming from. Yeah. Uh-oh. ah anything, but um I may have to go. Yeah. after you mentioned your two books, what are some books you would recommend people to read? gosh, that's a good question. There's so many good ones. m I will say there's a book that'll be coming out soon by Warren Throckmorton. He was a psychology professor um and has done a lot of work really countering... um a well he's a political operative who masquerades as a historian, David Barton. He's probably the chief purveyor of alternative Christian nationalist history. And Warren Throckmorton is coming out with a book. I just read it and you know endorsed it where he kind of takes apart these key seven lies of Christian nationalism and how historians are like you know basically lying about our past and different aspects of it. um And so that was a really good book and would be really useful. We should have him on the podcast. um But that'll be a really good one. Yeah, books that have really formed me and helped me. Robert Jones, his book, Too Long, was really helpful. It's been out for a couple years now. Phil Gorski and Sam Perry's book. Flag and the Cross is another really helpful one. Gosh, there's been so many. Andrew Seidel has a couple of them too. These are folks that are really helpful. um Catherine Stewart, a journalist, really pulling apart kind of the key power network structures of the Christian nationalist movement. So um yeah, you get on one of the sites and the algorithm, it'll feed you a lot of different related books. um But yeah. And for our audience, if you don't know, we actually have a Faithful Politics bookshop account. created it, I don't know how long ago. But it's got like a list of all, I think it's got all the books from the authors you mentioned except the first one. So I'm going to go back and find out who he's published through and try to do. out soon. I'm not sure exactly when it comes out, but yeah, yeah. good. Well, we love talking to authors because they're way smarter than we are, much like you. So thanks for joining us again, Andrew. Really, really appreciate it. It a good conversation. And to our audience and listeners, hey, thanks again for stopping by. Make sure you like and subscribe. Do all that stuff algorithm-wise. I'm not smart enough to know how it works, but people tell me that's what you're supposed to do. So thanks again for stopping by. And as always, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care. Take care.