Spiritual Warfare and Christian Nationalism: A Conversation with Karrie Gaspard Hogewood

What happens when the language of faith is weaponized for politics? 

In this episode of Faithful Politics, Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram speak with Karrie Gaspard Hogewood, a licensed social worker and PhD candidate at Tulane University, whose research explores the growing influence of Christian nationalism and spiritual warfare rhetoric in American politics.

Karrie explains how spiritual warfare, once a personal practice of prayer and discipleship, has evolved into a collective political strategy rooted in the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) and neo-charismatic movements. She walks us through the shift from evangelism to domination, the rise of the Seven Mountain Mandate, and how imagery of good versus evil fuels political engagement—from “Jericho marches” to Stop the Steal rallies. We also discuss the connection between these movements and broader themes of dominion theology, Christian Reconstructionism, and charismatic expressions of faith.

Listeners will learn how this rhetoric not only mobilizes believers to vote, protest, and organize, but also raises concerns about political violence and democratic stability. Drawing from her dissertation research, Karrie offers insight into how narratives about “principalities and powers,” demon mapping, and America’s supposed covenant with God shape today’s most polarizing debates.

Guest Bio
Karrie Gaspard Hogewood is a licensed social worker and PhD candidate in sociology at Tulane University. Her research explores the ways religion, politics, and social movements intertwine, with a particular focus on spiritual warfare rhetoric and its role in shaping political engagement. Raised in Louisiana’s Southern Baptist tradition, Karrie brings both personal experience and scholarly expertise to her work. Her dissertation examines how Christian nationalist groups construct “the enemy” and use spiritual warfare language to mobilize political action, from school board campaigns to national rallies. She has been featured in academic and public conversations about Christian nationalism, the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, and the growing influence of

Transcript

0:16

Then we'll introduce ourselves like, hey, welcome to Faithful Politics. uh Welcome back to Faithful Politics, actually. I'm your political host, Will Wright, joined by your political host, er, who are you again? You're the faithful host, Pastor Josh. Past, yeah, you are. Yeah, you you do have that mind virus. Anyways, you're you're Pastor Josh Bertram. uh I'm Will Wright. This is Faithful Politics. We got off on a really weird start. Gaspard Hogwood. me say it. I wanted to say it. I was like, I was going to say. say Hodgewood. Gaspert Hodgewood. It's the E, the E throws everybody off. Yes. It's a silen-y. well, we are so glad to have you on our show. You are a licensed social worker, PhD student at Tulane University, and your research focuses on religion, politics, and social movements. You also explore faith traditions that shape political engagements, collective identity, and even spiritual warfare. And this is just a really, really strange start to the beginning of an episode. Thank you. Thank you for having me. um I have been super pumped about this all week. So I really, I appreciate you having me on. Yeah. And so where are you calling us from? New Orleans, where it is always hot and the potholes are deep. Yes. Very, very nice. Well, yeah, so you are currently in the middle of writing a dissertation. This is kind of like your field of interests, of passion, religion, politics, social movements, but it wasn't always. And I'm curious, why don't we just start off by just help us walk through a day in the life or years of Carrie. And how did you kind of get to the point today where... Probably a lot more than I would care to write, um yes, so I kind of had a weird educational route. I do have a master's in sociology, thought I wanted to do grad school, wasn't sure, went back to grad school to get a master's in social work. figured out, no, I really do need the PhD. And so now I'm working on the PhD in uh sociology at Tulane University. So um I was always interested in religion and kind of religion as a social institution, both the good and the bad of it. um And so that kind of has brought me to Christian nationalism broadly. um Admittedly, I wasn't quite sure if that was going to be my area of expertise or not. It seemed like a lot of people were in that conversation. um And then January 6th happened. And I grew up Christian. uh I saw a lot of symbols and imagery and language that I recognized um that day. And there was a lot of stuff I didn't recognize. And so that kept bothering me. I wanted to know more. And so that brought me to studying a particular strand of Christian nationalism. um It's the neo-charismatic. of strand. Sometimes folks refer to it as NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, but either way, it's a charismatic expression of Christian nationalism. uh And so, yeah, and so it had a lot to do with not only January 6th, but then the movement to stop the steal after and just a uh continuation of kind of this messianic status of Trump and kind of the divine calling or anointing. that he has for the country. And so, yeah, that just kind of, that's how I got here. I appreciate you sharing that. It's really cool to hear people's stories and to get more context. And I'm interested. So you grew up Christian. You don't have to share anything you're not comfortable with, but could you elaborate on that a little bit? What do you mean? Like what denomination, like what was that like um for you? Baptist, Louisiana is how I grew up. I kind of had a period there where I didn't go to church, still read the Bible, did all that, but was kind of not sure about organized religion. And then I married a pastor, so here we are. And there you go, dude. So yes, it's funny how things turn out, most definitely. Yeah, I absolutely understand that. I say that tongue in cheek about uh me not being sure about organized religion, but it's kind of true. like it just depends on how those institutions go and what kind of uh methods they use. And I know that's what you've been working through. I would love to kind of get a sense of for our audience. What's the main thesis of your dissertation, if you could describe like, what were you setting out? Like what are you trying to prove essentially? And we want to kind of, we love talking about the substance stuff on this podcast. It is a little deep sometimes, we try to lighten it, but we do want to make sure people are understanding how people think, what's really going on, so that they're not making caricatures and they're really dealing with the substance of what you're saying. And so what's the thesis of the dissertation in a way that you think our general audience can understand? Sure, so basically I come at it from a social movements perspective, And so what ideas, what type of rhetoric um is mobilizing? know, whether that is voting or violence or whatever, mobilization in any sort of way. So my dissertation is looking specifically at spiritual warfare rhetoric and really looking at the idea of framing. So in social movement, scholarship, there are different types of framing. Diagnostic, prog... prognostic and motivational. And so I'm looking at all that breaks down to the gist is I look at how the enemy is constructed. So who are they saying is the enemy, right? um And then in order to do spiritual warfare against, and then how are they framing this idea of spiritual warfare? What are they saying to do about the threat of the enemy? And then the last piece is looking at, you know, are those ideas actually mobilizing? Do they spur political engagement, whether that's putting a um sign in your front yard or voting a certain way or running for school board, whatever it is, right? um And so I really kind of want to look at that whole piece from spiritual warfare rhetoric, who is the enemy, what's being said to be done about it, and why should people do anything about it, right? What are those motivational elements? Does that make sense? Yeah, totally makes sense. I think that's so fascinating because like, so I didn't grow up Christian. I came to the faith 2008-ish. uh And, you know, I've heard the term spiritual warfare uh before I was a Christian and just thought it was like... That's like, that's crazy talk, you know, like those, those like, you know, believers and their imaginary God and blah, blah. um And when I became a Christian and I had a sort of like better understanding of it, I mean, to be honest, it still doesn't really quite make sense to me. So like, could you could you just sort of unpack? Like when we were talking about spiritual warfare, like the image in my head are like. you know, a bunch of people riding on winged horses with swords, you know, about to attack each other or something like that. So what is spiritual warfare? So spiritual warfare is, it's different obviously for different groups, right? Some folks believe in more individual spiritual warfare. um Others like NAR types believe in a strategic level spiritual warfare in addition to kind of that individual level. So spiritual warfare is essentially, um it's war, right? In the spirit realm. is, the forces of good versus the forces of evil, right? And so there are different types of ways to engage in spiritual warfare. um It might be worship is a form of spiritual warfare, prayer is a form of spiritual warfare. I've seen like flag dancing in these charismatic um environments that is a form of spiritual warfare. So it can take many different shapes. The focus of my dissertation is gonna be on spiritual warfare prayer specifically. um The language of spiritual warfare is inherently kind of this binary, you know, good versus evil. um For example, so NAR or Neo-Charismatic types believe in three different levels of spiritual war. uh So you have the individual level and that can be anything from, you know, a heart condition, an addiction. They would even classify if you identify as LGBTQ that you or inhabited and infested with a particular demon that is controlling these aspects of you. Gout from cancer to anything, right? um And so they'll essentially do this spiritual warfare prayer and practice to rid the individual of those demonic entities. There's an occult level spiritual warfare. It's kind of the meso level um that you can pray against different um religions, right, different occult practices. The masons are often um a target of these. doesn't everyone kind of feel like the masons? mean, except for masons, don't, doesn't everyone kind of feel like they're crazy? Because you're like, what is this Masonic temple? And why is it a temple? And Masonic just sounds like Messianic. And so it sounds, I mean, am I off on this one? I mean, I just feel like, I don't know, sorry, I interrupted, but the masons, I'm just like, the masons, like what? And actually, interestingly enough, any assumptions of God, which I was a part of, maybe I shouldn't say that, maybe I should, maybe I don't know. But I love the assemblies. um They've done so much for me. And even though I can critique parts, I love it. um So, but anyway, oh one of the things that you have to do is say that you're not gonna be in one of these like secret societies to be a minister. Like you can't belong to both. So it's like, what's up with that? Like what's going on? It's conspiracy, man. Something's happening. Anyway, sorry, go ahead. the the Masons get the wrath of many people. um Yes, yes, they yes, it's been a target for sure. So yes, that would be the occult level, right, of different religious symbols, practices, things like that. Feminism, maybe, you know, different ideas like that. uh But then what's very unique to these neo-charismatic types that some might classify as NAR, which that's just a whole kind of loose network, right? There's no membership. um Is this idea of strategic level spiritual warfare, where entire cultures or geographic spaces or institutions can be, are believed to be, um under kind of the the kingdom of Satan and need to be won back, right, for the kingdom of God. And you can do that through spiritual warfare practices, namely prayer and worship. And so what's really interesting about that is it's this idea that the war is waged in the heavenlies, they would say, against principalities and powers. But the effects of that war are seen and are very tangible right here on earth, right? So maybe different policy positions, different people winning um elections and that sort of thing, right? So that's what is extremely interesting to me about this movement is that while they will say that the war is occurring, the battle is occurring in the spiritual realm, m the effects of it are intended to be seen in the natural, what they would call the natural world. So, like, when there's like a major hurricane or tornado or some sort of natural disaster, there are some that would attribute that tragedy to God's feeling on a particular issue. Would that sort of fit kind of in the realm of what you're describing? Yeah, I mean for that, the way I've heard it phrased in terms of like natural disasters, it's more kind of God's wrath on a people for believing a certain way or behaving a certain way. So that would be more, I think, um at least in how I've heard it, of more of a punishment, the wrath of God against his believers or against people who don't believe, right? um And so spiritual warfare is more the active need to pray against particular demonic entities in order for um God's people and God's will to inhabit the earth, really. um So it's, yeah, it's... It's also a very embodied practice, which that's why I, you know, it worries me in terms of violence because I think this rhetoric has gotten spiritual warfare has always existed. But I think that the rhetoric surrounding it in the engagement with the political sphere has, has really ramped up stuff. And I worry about kind of the violence. And so, you know, a lot of this is, you know, the goal is change is political change in the natural world. You also see things, um spiritual warfare practices like Jericho marches, right? And you saw a lot of these before January 6th, folks walking around, maybe the Supreme Court um and praying against the demonic forces that guide the justices within it. um real fast, can you just describe, like, just for our audience that may not be familiar, like, so a Jericho march is based on something in the Bible, right? So can you just, talk, you know, why are a bunch of people marching around blowing horns and stuff like that around the Capitol? Right, right. And so, um so this is the idea taking from the biblical story that if, you you march around somewhere seven times and blow the shofar and pray, the walls will come down um and all of the bad people inside will, and the biblical story is quite violent, will be slaughtered, right? Men, women, children, animals, um and allow for God's people to take control and to reign. So that's the gist, that's the idea. mean, the idea is violent, right? um And then that it's such an embodied practice that folks do is concerning to me in addition to the rhetoric and um ideas like the Seven Mountain Mandate that I know that you've talked about before on your show. um But I worry about kind of what this rhetoric does. um to people and how it mobilizes people. Yeah, I mean, I understand that like a lot because I think about if you have a group of people who are like they all alike think that this demonic thing is gonna create real results, right? The spiritual is not only a spiritual is unreal. That's not what I mean. And I don't actually think that. think it's very real. But em that they would say somehow there's this connection that's not only direct, but that is influenceable by them, right? That gives them some kind of, there's some kind of connection between I'm going to say that I'm going to march around this thing physically. I'm going to blow this shofar physically and I'm going to then pray and shout or speak in tongues or whatever it is, all those number of things. And those actions have direct causal like relationships to heavenly realities that then have direct causal relationships to the earth, right? Correct. that's not as much of an issue, because there's a lot of people that believe that. But it's more what? That they would then think that, I need to go beyond this and do what? Like physically harm someone? mean, obviously that's awful. that's like, we don't want that. we have, political violence is a scourge on our society. And so, but is that the concern? What? the concern for me. mean, you take ideas um like the great replacement theory idea that has really motivated different mass shooters, right? mean, ideas can motivate people to violence. so to your point of, think spiritual warfare has always existed, right? And some in denominations, right? Like with assemblies of God and things like that. um And I'm thinking back also um just hymns that we used to sing in church about um onward Christian soldiers, right? And all this battle imagery. um There was a uh song that I learned in Vacation Bible School about the Lord's army, something about like, won't ever. Yes. sir! I'm in the Lord's army, yes sir! I was never, wait, I may never march in the infantry, in, no no, ride in the cavalry, shoot the artillery, I may never fly over the enemy, but I'm in the Lord's army. Oh yeah, we sing that all the time. Yeah. Right. And so you have. No, that that that is not it. Yeah, it's really it's interesting because, know, you have like the verse from Ephesians about putting on the armor of God. mean, these have existed right for a really long time. I think that right now there's a shift. There has been a shift in my lifetime from, at least when I was presented with these things, they were presented in terms of um kind of the need for discipleship, right? The need to go out and to make um disciples among men and to, know, which was also tied into kind of this particular eschatology, right, of this end times understanding that there will be a rapture and the people who are saved are going to go to heaven and the people that aren't are going to go to hell or spend quite a while during this time of tribulation. so you want to go out and be a disciple, right? You want to win people for Jesus. You're concerned about soul saving, right? And so to me, growing up, that was always in the context of like spiritual battle. Right? That was always presented kind of more in that way and in the discipleship. Not to say that, you know, political entities didn't also use that for colonization purposes and those, but I'm talking about like people in the pews, right? Understanding the idea of we need to go out and make these disciples and win people for the Lord. Right? There's been a shift from discipleship now to domination. And so that is in my increasing concern with violence comes in part from that. um So no longer is it go disciple folks, it's go dominate folks. And you see this idea in the ever popular, increasingly popular idea of the seven mountain mandate, which essentially is a dominionist idea or dominion theology. um that's really derived from a particular reading of Genesis that says, you know, man should take dominion over the earth and everything in it. um And so if you're not familiar with the seven mountain mandate, I know you guys are, but if you're listeners or not, this is just the belief that God has mandated that Christians climb atop and roll over the different mountains of culture. So things like education, um arts and entertainment, media, government. the family, religion even. um And so all of that, that idea is growing. know Paul Jupe has shown kind of the increase in agreement with the Seven Mountain Mandate. And when you believe that, right, and then you also throw in the spiritual warfare aspect of good versus evil, there's no talking, there's no compromise. You don't compromise with the demon, right? you get rid of an demon. And so it goes from discipleship to trying to like befriend people and win them over for Christ and let them, you know, know the Lord that you know and all of that to by any means necessary, Christians and a specific type of Christian, would add, need to stand atop the mountains of culture. uh And this also like the discipleship one, I think was is kind of really driven by kind of another type of eschatology being the post-millennial dominionism, right? So essentially instead of the rapture happening, it's a if you build it, he will come idea, right? You need to actually create the kingdom of God on earth before Christ's return and reign. And so that necessitates political engagement. And you need to, whether it's vote a certain way or pray a certain way, um you need to be engaged politically to make sure that those political shifts happen so that the kingdom of God can be realized. And that's quite different than discipleship. That's like that's a lot and it's a lot to just absorb. um And I'm always I'm always careful about um when we when we talk about stuff that could be theologically or politically dense to just sort of like take a step back a second, because if this is the first time somebody's tuned in to our episode, they're like, what did she just say? It sounds it sounds scary. You know, so um like, can can you just kind of? Explain like how did we how do we even get here? Um, like to this point, um again like I came to the faith in 2008 Had I talked to you or had we had this conversation before then I would have been like, uh-uh. No, thank you You know like like this sounds way too complicated like I don't know what the secret handshake is and I just want to make sure that I go to heaven, know and So like, how do we get here? And feel free to kind of just, you know, start at whatever point, whether you want to start at, know, Rushduni or you want to start, you know, with like the religious rite. we're at a point today in our Christian faith where there seems to be a lot of different rivers and streams coming off this ocean. So, yeah, just tell me what you think. Yeah, I mean, you know, all of this since, you know, day one of the US has been building in certain way, right? um And, you know, we have denominations that come and split and, you know, it's it's just a kind of an ongoing evolution, right? um You mentioned Rush Dooney, um Christian nationalism generally, I think, uh When we're talking about that broadly, we're talking about different groups. It tends to be discussed in survey data, which has been extremely helpful in understanding a lot of the worldview and ideology of this group as a whole. There are different strands, right? So you have kind of the Christian Reconstructionist movement um that you think Rush Dooney, you think Doug Wilson, right? That is more um interested in Old Testament biblical law. being enacted in our government and also um very attuned to specific gender norms, gender roles, the hierarchy of the family kind of thing. You've got the Christian identity movement that I would house under this Christian nationalist umbrella that is very motivated by race um and believing that only white men should be in charge of things. And so while they all have these kind of ideas of dominion, right, or dominion theology, um who or what um is at the helm and what that looks like looks different. And then you have kind of your moral majorities, kind of your non-charismatic Christian right, that's kind of how I distinguished them, and then kind of the charismatic Christian right. And so all of these kind of have come together um historically and have grown and shifted and merged in these really curious ways, right? that right now I think a lot of these groups um have very similar goals. And so they're supportive of each other. these aren't, mean, academically we have to kind of have our little categories, but obviously um in reality there's lots of leeway in terms of boundaries and identification. um So all of that to say that I think as these different strands are growing um and becoming more politically engaged, um and social media has done, just media in general has done a lot of work for this, for these efforts in terms of, I'm thinking like prosperity gospel pastors and stuff that are more charismatic and would maybe lean toward um NAR ideas. um There's just been different ways to mobilize and easier ways to mobilize. And I think that we're seeing kind of confluence of that um now. um So for decades, we know the non-Christian right, or non-Christian right, the non-charismatic Christian right um has worked diligently, um very well financed, very well organized to be able to influence policy. I'm thinking of groups like the Council for National Policy, Family Research Council, which has different state affiliates in Louisiana. I think it's the Louisiana Family Forum that do a lot of like legislative uh work and lobbying. And so you have you have all of that. And then as far as the charismatic expressions, it's kind of twofold. They this charismatic religion is the fastest growing globally. Right. So you can have an increase in adherence. But at the same time, you have Paula White-Kane, who is Donald Trump's spiritual advisor, has been for years. And she is not from a mainline denomination, right? She knows more prosperity pastors and televangelists and charismatic um folks who have these big media empires. And so when Donald Trump wants to court the evangelical vote, he goes to who he knows um and she goes to who she knows. Right? And then before long, you have a lot of these folks who believe in these demonic entities who participate in spiritual warfare practices, who have these kind of narratives about the country em in positions of power that have the president's ear. And so I don't think I was, I feel like I wasn't very clear on this answer, but it's a host of things that have just kind of come together in this perfect storm at this time. I mean, I'm just like taking it in and it's producing all sorts of like interesting ideas and questions in my mind. And one of the things is like, I would love for you, but let me make sure I understand. All right. Just so far, let me make sure I understand for myself and for our audience. I like... I like to play dumb sometimes so that I can not that our audience is dumb. And I don't know where I'm going with this except to say I like to simplify it because I want to make sure that people are understanding that from a broad view anyway. Maybe we mark that and edit it out because that was kind of a weird way to say that. Never. OK, whatever. So but here is my actual question like making sure I understand. If we're thinking about strategic spiritual warfare, because this is really the issue, right? I mean, people think about occult issues, like, I mean, it's not that it isn't important, but it's not exactly the headlines of like, hey, gotta figure out this occult stuff. What's happening right now is the strategic spiritual warfare that seems to be now actually being manifested politically. Correct. All right. They would call them principalities and powers. So that is a biblical term. I do know that. m Influence that they influence regions and institutions. Is that correct? Correct. oh is through like what? How do they do that exactly? Like the chauffeur or that kind of stuff or? There's there's actual there's a thing called demon mapping that that they'll they'll use this kind of gift of discernment to. So I ish. So what happens. sorry. One second, Carrie. Have you seen that movie? I have to. You should watch it. But if you start talking about the Han Moon, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna freak out. Anyway. don't know what you're talking about. But I clearly... Okay, then please proceed. I need to have more cultural references. I just, yes. right. Well, hold on. Like, I don't want this elephant to be in the room. So K-pop Demon Hunter is like a Netflix hit sensation. They produce amazing songs like Soda Pop, Takedown, Golden. It's a bunch of... It's a Korean singing group that has to use their voice to cast the demons away. And the music is nothing short of like, I don't know, cultish. Like, I can't get the songs out of my head. they really are like, I actually have, kid you not, I have heard the theory that they are in fact, devil worshipers and they have sold their, they've sold their soul to Satan. That demonic influence is everywhere in that, which is probably a lot of what we're talking about, right? That demonic influence is there. They've sold their soul to Satan and that's why their music is so good. Which that's a pretty old tale though. Isn't it like Faust or something like, you know, that whole idea I'm selling my soul and yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Absolutely. So, but I guess what I want to make sure and this is like, overlapping a lot. It's really an ideology and belief of NAR, Seven Mountains, all of that. And so I guess I would love for you to talk a little bit more about this demon mapping. I know it kind of like. Yeah, I interrupted you and said that, but talk about the demon mapping and what are we talking about when they're talking about spiritual mapping, strongholds, demon, all that stuff, what's going on? And then again, I guess bringing it back to why should we be concerned? Not why should we care? Because I think there's a lot of reasons to care about it, but why should we be concerned or should we be concerned? Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to have to watch this K-pop demon hunter. It sounds very similar to what Sean Foite's doing in terms of going, you know, his kingdom, the capital, well, going from, you know, the kingdom to the capital tour, right. That was going and using worship to push back against kind of these demonic strongholds um in these capital cities that are typically democratic. They're typically blue, right. um And so it's essentially the same concept. So. um Yeah, maybe they owe Sean Voight some of their royalties. I don't know. He would probably like that. uh So it sounds very similar. Sean Foy, the original K-Pop demon hunter. original K-pop demon hunter. Right? So Sean Foit once called me the woke two lane lady, so he can thank me for that. um Yeah. Just line in your pockets more, Sean. So, um so yes. Yes. Anyway, so this is, I like this question though, because it has to do, let me tackle demon hunting or demon mapping first. Um, it is believed that you can go around a city and apparently though, and I've never seen this done, read about it. Apparently we'll look up different, um, just historical facts. Like maybe there was a slave trade on this corner, right? Which is awful and demonic. Um, maybe there was a, right? Yeah. And maybe there was a massacre of, I don't know, orphans. I I'm just making all this up, right? But they'll look at the historic documents and say, well, here are the points of really demonic activity and demonic strongholds. And then they will have someone come in that is apostle, a prophet, somebody with a spirit of discernment that can discern what type of demon, what the name of the demon is that they're dealing with so that they can then actively pray against it. That is, um that's the gist of demon mapping and spiritual warfare in that way. um I think it's fascinating the strategic level spiritual warfare and it ties very, very well into the American story and other narratives in Christian nationalism dealing with land. And the belief is, you you have a host of folks on the Christian right. I'm thinking like, Rick Green, pseudo-historian, um what's his name? David O'Poot, I'm blank. Barton, yes, thank you, um who promote a particular historical narrative, right? And essentially, the gist of it is not only was America or the US founded as a Christian nation, but that in doing so, it kind of, and it being its inhabitants as well, entered into this covenant relationship with God. Right? And so as long as you are a good Christian and you are putting forth policies and politicians that are promoting the values that God likes, the nation of the U.S. will be blessed. Right? um If it is not blessed and we're not in God's divine favor and then all hell breaks loose. Right? And so the strategic level spiritual warfare kind of goes hand in hand with that, that particular narrative of America's founding. Um, because it then adds a different layer onto it saying, well, not only is the land holy, right? And, and it has entered into this covenant with God that we need to maintain in order to maintain blessing, but it's actually the the site of a spiritual battle between the forces of good and the forces of evil, that is ongoing and that we need to reclaim that for Christ. And so it's a very interesting convergence, I think, of these two ideas of the origin of America and of strategic level spiritual warfare. um Prayer calls, for example, uh that I'm looking at really speak to the group that I'm looking at. There's a host of prayer calls, you know, all over. the internet hosted by various people, proselytist prophets, intercessors, state level, federal level, it runs the gamut. But the ones I'm looking at um go to or speak on each state and they talk about the divine um authority of each state and the, um for example, I think Alabama was termed to the justice state. and the justice angel fights over that state. so it's the places have meaning, right? Places have meaning beyond just that covenantal relationship, but places have meaning because they're inhabited by spiritual forces. And if they're not inhabited by godly ones, then by default, they're inhabited by demonic ones. um And so spiritual warfare comes back into this by the need for people to undergo spiritual warfare practices or to engage in spiritual warfare practices to rid these spaces of the demonic entities. So you'll often hear things like people need to um stand in the gap. might have um people speak about the ecclesia or God's kind of ruling body. can I interrupt you just for a second? Yeah, sorry. I just wanted to make sure that, like one thing, you mentioned that Barton was a pseudo-historian. I would love for, like because one thing is that we want more MAGA listeners, believe it or not. Like we want... people from a lot of different sides that are listening and engaging, and even people that are Christian nationalists. Like we actually want you to listen. We'd love for you to be a part of this conversation with us and really like moving towards a reasoned place and a shared future. That's what we really want. But so I understand what you mean when you say that, I think, but I'd love for you to bring some more clarity if you would and then kind of... if you can bounce back into the issue there. I know we were talking about demon mapping, but just to make sure, just to take an aside, what is it about David Barton? What's going on there? Why would he be labeled a pseudo-historian? What does that mean? So I often, um I feel like every time I see his name in print, that's what precedes it, is pseudo-historian. um And the reason for that is because he promotes a particular narrative about America and America's founding and that being a Christian nation for Christians, um which doesn't necessarily um jive with the separation of church and state, right, that we have come to rely on. um It is different. I think that he's referred to that or as that in different spaces because a lot of what he says isn't historically verifiable. um And that it really just promotes this idea that is false, that the idea of America as a Christian nation and that it was founded and meant to be a Christian nation, um he elevates that narrative. which is historically, from my understanding, inaccurate. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does. No, I appreciate it. mean, I just, the reason I bring it up is I really, really, really wanna be as fair as I can. Yeah, and Will and I, we've talked a lot about this, like this idea of the elephant and the rider. Like Will and I are becoming big Jonathan Haidt fanboys. So Jonathan, we'd love to have you on the show. If you ever see this man, please, we'd just love to talk to you. But the idea of elephant and rider and like, that we just by nature of our relationships, by nature of the people we know, the things we read, we're going to like... you know, just have feelings about what someone says. Good or bad, that have nothing to do necessarily with a conscious, conscious understanding. I always get those back and forth. A conscious understanding of the evidence or why or the rationality. What I'm always trying to remind myself is, I don't want to just like, I don't want to say, oh, that guy is a pseudo-historian because I don't like what he's saying. Yeah. because it makes me feel weird or I don't like it or it signals bad in my mind, I actually want to know why and wrestle with those arguments. And I'm not saying you haven't or don't or should have. I'm not even sure that's your special taste to work with that. I think that's, just, not only does it help our audience know how I kind of think and how Will and I have talked, but I think it helps the people that come on. And I would love to hear your thoughts if you have any on but I just wanted to bring that. Yeah, yeah, and thank you for that. And yes, I mean, we're not getting through this current polarization um without dialogue, right? um Like that's just not gonna happen. So I appreciate the opportunity to clarify and to add some more points on that. um You know, we as Americans have kind of shot ourselves in the foot in terms of um things that we've implemented. and made happen that would be considered maybe Christian nationalist light, that folks now latch on to you as even further proof that we were founded as a Christian nation. Things like adding in God we trust, um under God to the pledge, right? Which we know is a result of the Cold War and we need to divide ourselves and distinguish ourselves from those godless communists, right? And so there's things, having Senate chaplains. mean, that's historically, you know, ongoing. um And so there are lot of reasons that people would believe and point to America as a Christian nation. um But historically, in the founding, I don't believe, and especially because the separation of church and state, that it was intended to be a Christian nation. Yes, you know, the history is complicated. when the early colonies, you have, it was just, it was lots of religions, lots of Christian religions, Protestant religions. um And it was a crazy time. I you the Anglicans down in Virginia, right? And you had the Presbyterians north and the Methodists are riding around on horses. It's just like, it's chaos, right? And I... I believe what, um in things that I have read historically, that our founding fathers recognized that people are getting kicked out of colonies because they're not the right religion or challenging religion, which is equivalent to challenging the government of the time. I'm thinking of like Anne Hutchinson that got kicked out. And so our government, our founders recognized the inherent divisiveness of this and wanted to say we need to have freedom of religion, right? We don't need to have tests for office, right? Catholics couldn't even hold office, right, in early America, right? They weren't even deemed Christian. And so all of that to say, I think that there's a very complicated history, uh both from the origin of the US and who came and the different specifically Protestant groups that came. and that reality, along with the reality of things like Senate chaplains, more contemporary things, uh God, we trust in our money. And those are taken to be evidence of the US as a Christian nation. um And from my understanding, that is not what was intended from the founding documents. And it was freedom. for anybody, for anybody to practice whatever they wanted, um whatever type of faith tradition, or no faith tradition at all, right, to be able to do that. So all of that to say, yes, it's a complicated history. That's not my area of expertise, as you pointed out, Josh, um but I do understand a lot of the complicated elements that have gone into this and into people's current belief that this is. you know, America is a Christian nation. You also have folks who believe that we've read the or understood the separation of church and state incorrectly all of these years, that, their argument would be that the government should never influence the church, but the church should always influence the government, right? And I've heard people like Mike Johnson say things like that and kind of frame the separation of powers in that. And so, yeah, it's a complicated argument. um There are two competing narratives right now. um And one particular narrative, right, that you typically find, not always, typically find on the right, gives um legitimacy to also this idea of the covenant relationship with God, with the land. that gives legitimacy to the efforts of spiritual warfare practices to turn the country back to God, specific type of God, right? um And so, yeah, that's concerning. For me, historically, whether it's theology, whether it's history, if it's exclusionary, we need to ask why, and we need to really wrestle with that. um I tend to err on the side of love and inclusion. um And if you're telling me I need to, for religious reasons or political reasons or otherwise, need to exclude a certain group of people, um I've got issues with that. And so I think, um obviously I'm a person that's biased. So I think how I read history, how I understand the Bible is kind of really overarching theme for me is love and inclusion. um And so I tend to err on those the side of that. I love that. uh To uh be human is to be biased. uh So, uh man, I could keep talking to you for another hour, but we all have day jobs. But I have to ask, you're in Louisiana. ah Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, he's from Louisiana. uh What's the general vibe? Like, pretty widely liked, know, folks are, you know... super stoked that you're gonna be getting National Guard police in your streets or something like I'm just curious Yeah, I mean, well, it's I can't speak for all of Louisiana. mean, Louisiana voter wise is a pretty red state. New Orleans isn't. And so I, as we do tend to, you know, kind of surround ourselves with with similar people and similar perspectives, which is really horrible because we all get into our different echo chambers. But, you know, not a fan. Not a fan of somebody who's going to speak of the separation of powers in that way. um Not super thrilled about National Guard potentially coming to, um unless it's for Mardi Gras. mean, you know, we need all the help we can get um for Mardi Gras. Yeah, but just kind of the everyday. Not, they're not. And so, yeah, just not, not very, um thrilled with kind of that turn of events. um So what you gonna do? Yeah, I guess you're gonna like keep living your life and just keep doing good to the next person using your voice in the best way you can honoring God and the people around you and yeah, I mean just writing. Writing words. and when this airs and he sees me on here, I'm going to get a message that says, why aren't you writing? So I'll get back to you very soon. was gonna say, I was gonna actually like bring up the jupe thing, cause when I had him on I was like, is it jupe or is it jupe? ah And there's a little bit of disagreement about how him and his wife pronounces it, but I'll take it on your word that it's jupe. yes yes yes yes nah experience of the PhD program. Yeah, yeah, you're good. It's okay. I think I'll just give you that encouragement. I'm not sure if it's true or not, but you're good. You're great. I have to say that to myself, right? Sorry, I'm not the best encourager these days. I actually do think though you actually are going to be good. And I do think that there's hope. There's no doubt. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so here's kind of like, uh I'd love to kind of for you to let people know how they can connect with you, how they can follow your work, what's going on, like if you want that or like, I don't know how much you want people to connect with you or not. So just kind of like whatever you want to say here and when your dissertation is coming out or how they can see that just, yeah, I'd love to. um I've got a couple of things coming up in New Orleans. So if you're in New Orleans reach out, we'll have a conversation with Amanda Tyler um and with Robbie Jones and Jay Augustine and others coming up in the next few months. You can find me at CarrieGaspert.com and that, know, if you need to connect with me, there's a way to go ahead and do that. um Yeah, other than that, I think I try to stay off of Twitter. Blue Sky, Truth Social, all of them. try to just, um yeah. but, and Instagram is helpful if you wanna look at pictures of my dogs and food. That's about it. Yeah, lots of pictures of dogs, yes. thank you so much, Kerry, for coming on the show, spending some time with us. It's been really cool to kind of hear your insight, your heart. Appreciate you. yeah, appreciate it to our friends and... who've joined us, our viewers guys, thank you for being here. Like, subscribe, do that stuff that hacks the algorithm. We need it, we need you, because we need more sanity out there in the craziness that is our American politics and our culture right now. We just need unity. So we need your help, and we love you guys. Thanks for your support, and until next time, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. God bless.