The Bible According to Christian Nationalists with Brian Kaylor

What happens when the Bible gets treated like a political toolkit instead of a sacred text meant to form our lives? 

In this conversation, Pastor Josh and Will sit down with Brian Kaylor—editor in chief of Word&Way, Baptist minister, and author of The Bible According to Christian Nationalists—to unpack seven common ways scripture gets twisted to serve power. We talk about why Christian nationalism functions as a theological heresy, not just a political ideology, and how to separate healthy patriotism from a fusion of church and state that distorts the gospel.

Brian walks us through how numerology frames like “Ephesians 6:11 at 6:11” go viral after violent events and why chapter and verse numbers were never meant to carry hidden messages. We dig into the difference between loving your neighbors and trying to rule them, the history behind public Ten Commandments displays and classroom mandates, and how commodifying the Bible turns faith into a brand. We also get practical about reading in community, broadening the voices that shape our interpretations, and cultivating the humility to say I might be wrong. If you care about faith, civic life, and the integrity of scripture, this episode offers language and tools to navigate a polarized moment without surrendering your soul.

Book: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780827203501

Guest Bio
Brian Kaylor is the editor in chief of Word&Way, a Baptist minister, and a scholar of political communication whose work sits at the intersection of faith, civic life, and media. He is the author of The Bible According to Christian Nationalists, a field guide to recognizing and resisting seven common misuses of scripture in public life, and the coauthor of Baptizing America, which traces how mainline Protestants helped cultivate the soil for Christian nationalism to grow. 

Transcript

0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching us on our YouTube channel, thank you so much for being here. We're really, really glad you're here. We're over 5,000 subscribers, so we must be big time now. And make sure you tell your friends, because that's how we grow. We do zero advertising. I'm your political host, Will Wright, and I'm joined by your ever-faithful host and my wonderful work wife, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? I would prefer to be the work husband. I really identify as a husband, Will, and I really need you to respect that. This is why we go to podcast counseling to work out these issues. you can just take that out or leave it in. No way. You're like, this is going viral. Yeah, this is gold. And joining us again today, we have with us our friend and our favorite editor in chief at Word & Way, Brian Kaler, who is also a Baptist minister, a journalist and scholar of political communication. He's co-authored numerous books to include Baptize in America, one he wrote with Bo Underwood. with Trace how mainland Protestants helped create American Christian nationalism and he is out with a new one called the Bible according to Christian nationalists. So welcome back to the show Brian. Yeah, thanks. It's always great to be with you, although I'm a little worried that I was called in to do the counseling today. that's above my pay grade. Let's get to why we really brought you here, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, know, Brian, the last time you were here, you were not a Christian nationalist, but now you wrote a book where you are uh writing it as a Christian nationalist. So I'd love to just kind of learn more about it. tell us what the book is about. Yeah, we should probably do the disclaimer. I am not trying to convert people to Christian nationalism. Yeah, the Bible according to Christian nationalist is a way of looking though at how I've seen Christian nationalists using the Bible and I would say misusing co-op in scripture. And so what I do in the book is outline seven different kind of ways that I see the Bible being misused in politics today. And in each chapter, I kind of detail some examples. in last few years, and these are things that I've just been, you know, collecting, sometimes posting on social media, sometimes writing about it at a public witness, but kind of collecting these and starting noticing some patterns. And then I start trying to unpack, okay, but what's a better way of reading the scriptures? How can we not fall into this particular trap of reading the Bible? And what are some ways that we can read it that I think will lead us more towards what Jesus was actually trying to teach us? Yeah, uh I really appreciate that because I think that at the bottom of so much of this, and it's not really I think, it's not like it's some huge revelation. I do think this, but it's like there is a very twisted theology that's at the core of a lot of what's happening. And I think it has to do with dominionism that we've talked about, almost like ad nauseum on this show. We've talked about the kinds of seven mountain mandates, but it goes down, whatever, manifestation that is. It's a theology that sees this fusion of government power and empire power with the Christian church that's so problematic. And again, just to just to give everyone here that's listening, maybe some common ground here, because we really do want MAGA people to listen to our show. Like we really do want like uh Antifa if you're out there, we want you to listen to our show. We want people, why? Because we want to draw people together because we have to talk even if we disagree so fundamentally. And so I would love for you to kind of pull this together like just for anyone just jumping on and thinking why is it problematic what I just said? Why is it problematic to take the government and the church and fuse it together in the way you're suggesting they do? Yeah, that's a great question. And I do want to clarify that, you know, and as you all know, because when we talked about baptizing America, often we're in that book, we're challenging liberal, mainline Protestant clergy and democratic politicians. And so I do not see Christian nationalism as merely a heresy of the right. And so I'm not saying, what I really want you to do is read the Bible and become a liberal. Right. Someone can be conservative theologically and politically and not be a Christian nationalist and not be misusing scripture. in the ways that I'm identifying in the book. So I do think that is hopefully something that we can unite that even when we have disagreements on politics, even when we have disagreements about how to interpret parts of the Bible, that we can still agree that there are some ways that the Bible should not be used. And Josh, your question really gets to the subtitle of the book is exploiting scripture for political power. And so that's that like that means here, treating the Bible as a means for political power, as something else. And the scripture is very much an anthem imperial text in so many ways. So much of scripture was written by people on the margins, by people who were being exploited. And I think that makes it difficult than for us in the United States. We live in the global empire. And so it can kind of color the way that we read scripture to be at the center of the empire as opposed to on the margins and being oppressed. oh by the empire. And I think that's one of the things we have to learn. How do we read the Bible in a way that doesn't just go along with the cultural ideas? With Christian nationalism, it is this fusing of American and Christian identities to treat them as synonymous. And so what we have to do now is we have to detox. We have to try to that difficult journey that all of us are going to have to do of separating what was American and what was actually gospel. What was the chaff and what was the wheat? And that's what I'm hoping to help people do is to read scriptures in a way that helps separate that American imperial vision away off of our lens that we read scripture through. Yeah, I want to kind of expand on that just a little bit more just because your book is written kind of through the context of this is how Christian nationalists utilize scripture. So let's try to frame what Christian nationalism is, what a Christian nationalist uh person believes. uh Just so that way, as we kind of talk about the different ways that people are using scripture, can really center that. then if you could also, Help somebody listening that loves their country. Maybe they served in the armed forces like I did. uh Maybe they go to church fairly regularly, unlike me. What's the difference between that individual uh and the Christian nationalist that you talk about in the book? Yeah Yeah, that's a great question. It is always important to separate the patriotism from the Christian nationalism or any form of nationalism. There's other types of religious nationalism in other countries. There's nationalism that isn't Christian. what I've particularly been focusing on is Christian nationalism because I do see it as a heresy to the faith. And that is that Jesus taught us a global faith that it doesn't matter where you live on, you know, the people on the other side of a manmade border are just as much created in the image of God or just as valued by God and that when we're called to treat our neighbors as ourselves to love our enemies that means those people over there and so the Christian nationalism though what it does is it makes the faith subservient to the state that ultimately the Christian faith is about propping up the power of the government and we can see this in just some really basic ways if we think about the ways that we often fly the American flag and the Christian flag at our churches and and I I have no problem with people flying the flag at their homes, at their bank, at their schools, right? I struggle with that at a church, though, because we're the kingdom of God. We're supposed to be embassies of the kingdom of God first and foremost. But it's even worse when we start putting the American flag on top of the flagpole and the Christian flag second, right? So we're saying America first, Christian second. I mean, that same mentality is too often how I think we're taught to go to scripture as well. We're reading it to win a way that that justifies America as opposed to Recognizing that this was not the Bible is not about America. It wasn't written about us It was it was it's offering an alternative vision to the Rome to the the America to any Empire any Babylon that challenges the basic theological claim that Christ is king and so, you know, we can be a patriotic American We can be someone who has you know served in the armed forces without being a nationalist It is though that sense of where is our true identity? Where is our top priority and as Christians were taught by Jesus that you cannot serve two masters You chose to use the word heresy to define Christian nationalists uh versus political extremism. I'm curious, is that intentional or are the two separate? Yeah. So I mean Christian nationalism any form of nationalism can be a politically extreme ideology and Christian nationalism is and in Christian nationalism Is a threat to democracy we saw that on January 6th, but we've seen that in other ways as well However, Christian nationalism is also a heresy and I do I am intentional about calling it a heresy it is Using the sacred scriptures, which is what I focus on in the Bible according to Christian nationalists. It's using sacred symbols I go to Christian national events. Sometimes I do question my life choices, but it's not Occupational hazard right I go so I can write about them and they're giving out communion and they're baptizing people and I wonder like to what faith are we? Baptizing people into right so it's taking our holy moments. It's taking our holy songs And singing them it's up to bless all of the the politics and the conspiracies and so forth right and so it is a heresy and But it's a heresy done in our name, which is why I do think Christians have an extra responsibility to speak out against it you know one of the one of the pushbacks I get is people are like Well, that's not Christian. That's not Christianity. Don't call it Christian nationalism and and and I get the temptation like I want to be like that's not Christian, right and and so much of it isn't what Jesus taught but at the same time they're using our our sacred text they're using our language and so it's it would be too too convenient to say well That's not Christian so I can ignore it. I can discount it It's a heresy and so it is it is drawing from our faith and I think this goes back to something Josh asking about a moment ago is one of the difficulties that we have in the American context today and that pastors have today is that when you're speaking against the the societal gods the the you know cult worship of the empire it the problem in the American context that Paul and Peter and James and the other you know early church leaders did not face is that Our imperial cult uses the same name to describe itself. It calls itself Christianity. Right? So when Paul's preaching against the empire of the religion of the imperial cult, it's not calling itself Christianity. So it was really easy to make that differentiation. We have to do that work of helping people understand what is actually Christian. And I think, Brian, like that point is so well made and it's so insightful because it's very difficult for us to separate things and it has been for so long. And, you know, I feel this deep need right now to call people to the radical middle. It's not my concept. It's apparently in the Vineyard Church, and I'm not vineyard, but my sister was, and she mentioned it to me, and I don't even know much about that. But what I mean is that Jesus had a zealot and Jesus had a tax collector. We can just stop there and know that the political anger and violence between those two people was real. They probably did want to kill each other at some point. uh At least they wanted to kill the tax collector, right? Maybe all of them did. Right, poor guy. But anyway, think about how Jesus said, we're rising above this. Like you said, my kingdom's not of this world. He explicitly refused to take imperial power and human power and use it, although he very easily could have with the kind of influence that he had. um And I just think about right now, and I've said this, but I agree, it is a heresy. It is an idolatry. And I think there's an idolatry, and this happens on both the right and the left. Right now, much more on the right, I think. At least it's much more a clear and present danger on the right right now. But then on the left, and I truly believe this as well, that there's a heresy, I would think, of identity politics taken to the place where whatever category of identity you find yourself in, or the intersectionality thereof, that's more important than your identity as a as a Christ follower. And I think both of those things need to be challenged personally. And I'm calling to the radical middle because I think that's what Jesus did. I'm not making specific statements about any specific category, by the way, on the left either right now. I would do that, but I'm not doing that right now. What I'm just saying is that those things can take over. And it's like, we have to somehow get through to people, hopefully the people that he who has ears, let them hear, he or she, whoever has ears, let them hear. We have to do something, because I've said it, and I know you said it, and you put it in print. Man, em we don't get off this train that we're on, we are not ready for the pain that's coming. We're not ready for That's right. And that is why we have to be speaking out against Christian nationalism and also why we need to be helping people learn how the faith is being misused and how to read the Bible better. I mean, I joke in the book that I probably sound a bit like a fundamentalist, but we people have got to start reading the Bible more. We can't challenge political misuse of scripture if we don't know what the text actually says. And unfortunately, we have a society now where... a lot of people, the only time they're really hearing the Bible used is by politicians or preachers who are focused more on politics, right? So they're only hearing the Bible in this political misuse, this political co-option, and that's now coloring their version of scripture. And in the introduction I talk about, we have this problem where the good part is we still have a lot of people in the society that have a high regard for scripture. They'll say that they believe the Bible is an important book and that we should live by the Bible, we should follow the Bible, a high regard for biblical authority. But then we have very low biblical literacy because few Christians are reading it and know very little about it. And it's in that gap between the high biblical authority and reverence and the low biblical literacy that's what has allowed Christian nationalism to flourish, to take advantage of the text. I just want you to hear me clapping for you, Brian, because I think you nailed it. ahead. Come on, man. Yeah, come on. We just want to build you up, brother. Go ahead, Will. I mean, I'm glad you clapped and I'm also glad you unmuted yourself because podcasting is generally like an audio medium. So kudos to you. You know, I'm curious, Brian. I mean, here you are talking to us. You're just like us. You did not get raptured. So I don't know what that says about your faith. Again. this is the like sixth time I've been left behind. I'm starting to question what's going on. m ready for that But, you know, to that point though, like when you infuse Bible verses um to very emotionally charged events, ah it seems to just like take on an entirely different flavor, kind of like, I've never read the Bible like that way before, you know, like, oh, now that you mention it, you know, maybe the time that, you know, Trump was assassinated or the assassination attempt happened on him, like... is significant or something like that. And I'd love for you just to kind of maybe talk a little bit more about like how scripture gets invoked, especially after violent events. can use Trump or can use Charlie Kerr, either one. Yeah, and so I have a chapter called the Bible is numerology which is where I talk about this idea of trying to divine prophetic insights from The chapter numbers in the verse numbers and in that chapter I do talk about the spike in Ephesians 6 11 after Trump was shot at 6 11 p.m. In Butler, Pennsylvania, right and that verse as we all know is about the armor of God real fast. EST or is that central? Yeah, so that was was ESD, which is important. I mean, it was local. was local time, local time, 6-11 p.m., right? uh You joke. Well, let's hold on that in a moment. And so it spikes online. And actually, Charlie Kirk was one of them that had pushed this. He was one of the early ones to push this idea that Trump was shot at 6-11 p.m., Ephesians 6-11 is about the armor of God, therefore God saved Donald Trump. Now, the Cliff Notes version of this chapter is that there is no inherent meaning in Ephesians 6-11. So if you're asked, the author of Ephesians, it's often said to be Paul. So if we ask Paul about Ephesians 6-11, Paul would look at you and be like, have no idea what you're talking about. Because the 6 and the 11 were not there for hundreds of years later. So for much of the Christian witness, there is no chapters, there are no verse numbers, and also they can't be, they're helpful. They can be a helpful guy. They can also be a distraction, right? They've called caused us to break up the text more and we don't read like long story and connection with each other But they're also helpful as far as like as a you know, Josh can be like hey We're gonna go to this chapter in this verse and people can actually find the passage Sunday morning Exactly, that's why they were there that's what they're search. Exactly. They're there as a guide, right? But they're not there for, you know, meaning. And in fact, sometimes they're put in bad places, right? I mean, you know, I don't know. The guys almost seem drunk when they're putting the numbers in there a few times, right? So they break up the text in some... Yeah, one of them was riding horseback. The verses are riding horseback, right? So the joke is that he's like, you know, hits a pothole and then we get a new verse. Yeah. there's no inherent meaning. But then if you just stop and like think about this, know doing theology is a Swiftie, right? Of trying to find, you know, inherent meaning in all the numbers. Like the absurdity of Ephesians 6-11 as the armor of God protecting Donald Trump. I mean, you know, first of all, there's like the theological ramifications that people don't think about with that text. It's like so if if the point was to send a message that the armor of God was protecting Donald Trump, though it does suggest that the helmet of salvation has a weak spot on the right ear, right? But if the whole point was to send that message, then it means that not only did God have to stop the bullet at 6 11 p.m. God had to make sure the bullet happened at 6 11 p.m. So therefore God shot Donald Trump, right? Like, like if you like really think through the logical implications of the theology here and also they never explain why Ephesians There are a number of books of the Bible that have a sixth chapter with an 11th verse. So what's happening here is the text, this way of reading the Bible as numerology, treats the Bible as malleable, right? You can flip through and find whatever you want to match your politics. And then choose that one, right? And so we did see this also come, this is obviously not in the book because it was off to the printer a couple of months ago. But we've seen that also in response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk. People have tried to draw meaning in the timing of his death. First, there was a spike in John 1253 because he was shot at 1253. But then Ben Carson made it 1254 at the memorial service. And so again, right there's even a disagreement as apparently I was like what time? We're supposed to be going with here, but trying to draw meaning from the time that Kirk died as if that was a significant attacks But again, like you could flip through and find any book of the Bible that you wanted until you found the one that matched the message That you wanted to offer. I will say the wildest one That occurred was there was an Instagram post from The White House press secretary. She was sharing somebody else's theory uh that an earthquake had happened that evening after Kirk was Assassin here. I pulled it up. There was a 4.1 earthquake in Utah and scripture 40 represents trial 41 signifies a shift which isn't actually a thing in the Bible uh It hit at this is giving it to your Your question about time zones it hit at 557 local time 757 Eastern acts 757 describes Stephen the first martyr right? So the whole point was here to try to tie Charlie Kirk to Stephen and so you had to get to acts chapter 7 But the Utah earthquake was two hours off. So for no explanation We jumped to Eastern time, but if God actually wanted to send a message To act seven like why was why was God impatient? Could God not have just waited two hours later and made the earthquake strike I mean so at the point that not only now you can flip through any book of the Bible to find a set, know a seventh, you know 57 verse than the seventh chapter But now you can like spin your globe and like change the time zone I mean, this is not a serious way of treating scripture and yet people get excited about this kind of message I mean we saw the Ephesians 6 11 spike I've done the Google search where you see it's like hardly ever Googled and then it just like takes off in the week after the assassination attempt. It was mentioned by numerous preachers and politicians during the Republican National Convention that following week. There are t-shirts you can buy with this meme. Like it took off because it sounds really powerful to your question, Will, right? People are like, wow, I've never thought of that. Like that connection sounds powerful because They haven't been taught how to read the Bible better. That there's no actual meaning in those. I agree. So there's a couple of points I would want to think about that you made. One, just so people know, I was actually texting, well, if someone had really cared about Charlie Kirk, many people do, and they should. I mean, don't think they have a, know, but I don't want to get too much into trying to mind read why people would care about it, but I think we, like, the maybe smiles or the chuckles that we have is not that this horrible thing happened, right? At least right for me. And I think I speak for all of us, but that almost like the exasperation that we would take this horrible tragic event, apply really questionable methods of interpretation, and then create some kind of action. And I think like for those of us that are MAGA, if you have even made it this far and listening to this podcast. I mean, honestly, I mean, let's just be honest. Like as soon as someone hears anything, they disagree with they leave and they call it woke or they call it Nazi or whatever they want to do, fascist, communist, and then it's done. But for anyone who's actually listening, it's like, it's horrifying what's happening right now. And part of our problem is this is what this kind of thinking leads to. This is what Christian nationalism leads to. this is what extreme ideas on the left lead to. And the reason I'm not as specific on the left is I'm not as aware of them. I just don't know what the extreme group's Antifa, but I don't even know if that's a thing. I've heard both of those things. And probably my conspiracy theory friends are like, you're out of your freaking mind thinking that Antifa is not a thing. They've been running the show. So again, I know this is how people think. And it's like, I would love for you to kind of dig into this and even maybe even using gerrymandering the Bible, right? I think that's your first chapter. Like how we take these things and we essentially proof text them. But if we splice and dice and everything to just fit our moment. And then like, yeah, just help us understand why that's such a bad way of interpreting the Bible. Yeah, so the opening chapter of gerrymandering the Bible uses a metaphor to kind of think about, you know, what we do to scripture. And by this, don't just mean Christian nationalist. As I note in that chapter, we all do some gerrymandering of scripture. And I will admit, when I was writing that chapter last year, I was actually a little worried that it might be like dated. And I didn't expect it to be like gerrymandering was the big national news when the book actually drops. anyways, here we are. So everyone gets the metaphor. the old. Yeah, everyone gets the metaphor and I start with the I actually gonna tell the story of being going to a prayer rally three years ago for gerrymandering in Missouri and in just the way the Bible was invoked in and completely I mean people were being completely sincere and serious but like in ways that were completely Unserious ways of reading scripture to try to justify gerrymandering and then now Missouri has actually passed that gerrymandering map that they were pushing for three years ago But yeah this idea of gerrymandering the text I quote in there Walter Brueggemann, know who he's criticizing the lectionary used in, you know, more mainline Protestant and, you know, lot of moderate progressive congregations noting that it also gerrymanders the text, right? That we, skips through some of the difficult passages that we don't want to have to set with. So if you're at a church that only goes through the lectionary and you're supposed to go through all of the scripture in three years, but there's actually like the cycle repeats every three years, there's actually a number of verses that you will never hear in church. uh if you read everything in the lectionary, right? So it's been skipped, it's been gerrymandered out. And what he's calling for, and what I'm hoping, you to call people here too, is that... We go to scripture not with our agenda and our mind made up first and then go looking for text to prove it, whether that's through numerology or some other way of, you know, just picking one verse out of context here or there. But instead we go to the full witness of scripture and we sit with the parts that don't make sense and the parts that really irritate me and the parts that convict me and the parts where I'm like, that's just wrong. You know that guy doesn't understand what it's like in 21st century America and that can't apply like but we sit with all of that And that when I go back to the passage, maybe when I read it again next year or three years from now i'm also reading it differently because scripture has continued to You know sharpen on me to adjust me. Um, but unfortunately we're using We're using the bible as a weapon, right? We we've made up our mind first and now we just need some ammunition to use against quote the other side and and and to your point Josh, I mean I do see this on both sides And I give some examples You know of Democrats as well at the same time and we are living in a moment where the right controls all the branches in Washington DC of government and are also the the side that is Using an invoking scripture more so and so there's a reason why I think we're always called to call out the abuses of those that are actually in power at this moment. You know, I'm, I can't help but wonder, like, where is all this coming from? I mean, because, like, Christian nationalism isn't like, there's not like a Christian nationalism ink where you can go to their office and, you know, find out the latest and greatest that they're doing. But, no, there's an invite. So, like, all of this is coming from someone. I like, the press secretary is not a theologian, you know, and uh we've been really, really fortunate to speak to actual theologians, you know, and they don't talk like that. uh So, like, is this just from, like... They attended a church service where the pastor says something, they connected the dots, and then it's just like this game of telephone where by the time it gets to you and I, it's this garbled mess of whatever, theological heresy. Where's all this coming from? Yeah. I mean, and also, I don't want to sound like, like get off my lawn type of level. I am a millennial here, but also like the internet and social media, I think also has magnified all of this. So it's really easy for these ideas to spread and go viral. We were all joking about the rapture earlier and that really took off because of TikTok this time, this particular one, your rapture talk. so, it wasn't really being spread in churches. It wasn't that we had a bunch of pastors that were going around Proclaiming that September 23rd was going to be the rapture. It was that tick-tock videos were proclaiming it, right? And I think that's the same thing we're seeing the Ephesians 6 11 spike from what I've noticed seems to have been on Elon Musk is X platform first, It wasn't showing up in sermons it later some pastors did actually echo it Paula White Cane among them, right? Some of the some of the you know Trumpian preachers were invoking it, but they didn't create this, you know, this meme if you will and so we This idea of this drive-by reading of scripture and this memeing of scripture seems to be something that's happening a lot because of our online culture. And even the thing I shared with the earthquake from the press secretary, I mean, she's sharing that from someone else that she saw online and not a theologian, but she sees it on Instagram and then she goes and shares it and says, wow, like, know, she's mind blown because of something she's seen on Instagram, not what she's hearing from the pulpit. Yeah, mean, so that's sort of like the output portion, but like the input, like me as the sort of, you know, receiver of the information. um Like, I don't know enough about... like what the overall biblical literacy rate is for most Christians. But I'd imagine that that has some part to play. And one discussion I've always had with Josh is like, Christianity shouldn't be this hard. Like we talk to lot of theologians and they use a lot of language that is completely unfamiliar to me. And I'm like, you shouldn't have to be a theologian to be a Christian. So what hope do people like me when somebody's using numerology to kind of make a point, you know, like how do I look at that and be like, no, no, that's crazy. Well, you buy the Bible according to Christian Nationalists, but no. That's actually, so my goal is not just to critique. My goal is actually to help people figure out. How can we read the Bible in ways that don't lead us being misled by, you know, the Christian nationals or engaging in the Christian nationals approach? So in each chapter, I'm giving some advice. So because I know there's going to be more examples. So, for instance, like the Bible as numerology, I've already given you more examples that have been related to the horrific shooting of Charlie Kirk, right? That are not in the book. But if people had read the chapter and then see, you know, Ben Carson at the memorial service saying that as soon as he says Kirk died at 1254, John 12 54 says this like you would immediately already know. Oh, wait a minute. Like there's no meaning there So I'm not gonna be wowed I'm not gonna allow myself to be impressed by what Carson is saying and I hope with each chapter all seven of the different ways that people will now have a little bit of like warning flags that go off and in the last chapter I also try to give kind of four big picture ways of how can we read the Bible better? Beyond just like reading it more which I do think is important. It also matters how we read it And so that's what I do think it's it's a it is a lifelong journey right of continuing to read the scripture We're never gonna get to the point where we've read the Bible and got it all figured out because we're not God and so, know this this this journey of learning from others and learning things that I hadn't seen in the text before and allowing our minds to change right, which is you know, almost uh itself the unforgivable sin and in a lot of political camps today, but like to to omit that oh I now read this differently. I was wrong before, you know? Absolutely. You know, I've had this new thing that I keep saying and because people accuse me of not being a conservative, you know, I already know I'm the shepherd for sale. I'm the woke, whatever, because I'm the weak left wing, whatever pastor, because I didn't vote for Trump in 2024 or 2020. So I already know that. I already know that that's going to be a view that will be there. I'm and whatever. I'm okay with that. you're if you are no and I'm not going to and I'm not going to say this to be mean. But if you don't won't take the time to actually investigate that then I I don't really I don't really need your opinion to be positive of me. Because I don't you I really want people who are critically thinking to engage in. I think that like, I absolutely love what you're doing, and Brian in this book, and I think it's so important. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about the almost like um the commodification of the Bible. We've made it something to sell, we've made it something to profit off of. And that is like motivated reasoning. Like 101, as people are trying to sell it, they're going to do things that people want to buy. Help us understand how that's happening, examples of it, and why it's such a terrible way to interpret the Bible. Yeah, mean, you the irony of, you know, Jesus said we couldn't serve two masters. quote that earlier. But you Jesus is a good, you know, mammon and God. And yet so much of our Bible industry is really motivated by mammon, you know. oh year, every Bible publisher has new versions of the Bible of a new cover. Now we've got, I'm not making this up, there was just a new Bible last week that I got a press release for, Bible for Golfers. And it's the same Bible, it's not a new translation, it just has a nice golf cover and inside there's some inspirational pictures of golfers and a nice Bible verse, which none of the verses I would quote when I was golfing because it's not going well. But there are some verses I could quote, but they weren't, I didn't seem to... be like making any of the like nice pictures inside right and and you know everyone needs a Bible that's great but like do we need a Bible for every single one of our hobbies I mean at some point I like I've got ten Bibles and I'm not reading any of them why do I need to go buy another one and you know I definitely don't need one that's got an American flag on the cover and the Constitution Declaration of Independence Pledge of Allegiance and you know what every Bible definitely needs the lyrics to Lee Greenwood's God Bless the USA and inside of it right and so yeah there's this commodification of the Bible of making a buck off the grifting of the Bible. I guess that one's making a lot more than a buck. mean, you you can get a King James Bible for a couple of bucks or for free if you ask the Gideons. You don't need to be spending, you know, 60, 90 bucks on a Bible. And yet that's, you know, we definitely have this idea of the capitalization, the capitalist mindset here, exploitation of the Bible. And then just that kind of like Bible is a prop, which is one of the things I talk about in the book of, you know, showing off the Bible. A politician wants to hold the Bible or sell the Bible and be seen as holy without actually doing anything to open it and to read it and to live by it. I mean, that's just it's it's it's really it's a sad exploitation of the sacred text. But I guess, you know, I mean we will sell literally anything. So I guess even the Bible is vulnerable to that. uh But yeah, it's definitely a problem we have. I'm curious about like, how do we know that you're right? In the sense of like, didn't. You don't you didn't write your name at the bottom. It just says Brian. So should I call you Brian Trump from? I mean, because because it's like there's still I mean, again, I'm not the I'm not the faith one. That's that's Josh's world. But. You as a outside observer of Christianity and Echristian myself, like I look at all these, you know, biblical interpretations, all these people that are really smart and they say, hey, the Bible means this. But then someone else is like, no, the Bible means that. uh You're saying, hey, sometimes we're using these scriptures out of context. like for, you know, the person that's just meeting you for the first time, saying, what does this guy know? You know, like, how do we know, like, our version of interpretation of the Bible is the right one? Yeah, mean, so the unfortunate answer is that we're all wrong about something as we're interpreting the Bible. There lots of some things, honestly, right? But I think that's actually the helpful mindset to approach the scriptures with humility. And more importantly, to approach my interpretation and reading of scripture with humility. Christian nationalism doesn't really bring a humble reading of the Bible. It is this is what it means. And we're going to now codify it. with government chorus of power so that everyone has to follow it because we're 100 % right. Hmm. You know, at the point that you're using the course of power of state government to codify your interpretation of scripture, we've lost any room for nuance or discussion or humility. And so, I mean, that would be the first thing I would say is that I'm wrong. I mean, you know, and, you know, I might argue with you if you point out a particular area, but I know I'm wrong about something. you know, don't take what I'm saying as gospel for sure. But I think that's why, you know, in the end, one of things I talk about is, reading the Bible. in community and reading various different types of voices to make sure, know, particularly, you know, so for Josh and I as, you know, white American heterosexual men, it's important that that's not all that we read in understanding scripture. We need to be reading uh biblical interpretation and commentaries and theologians who are women, who are black, who are Native American who are Hispanic or from other countries that bring all of these different ways of thinking about scripture because Because of their life experiences they notice things that they can then teach me that I wouldn't see on my own And I think that's the key is recognizing that all of us are reading it wrong, which is why we need more More theologians not just reading the books because most of us don't have time to read all of them So we need more conversations with theologians right on podcasts like this to help us all make a nut once step further to maybe a better vision, a better reading of scripture. So I really like that. I would love for you to help me um kind of respond to this interpretation of a text. Would you do that? think I'm pretty sure you're going to be familiar. m Pretty sure. OK. So um let's think about, so this is Jeremiah 29. starting with verse four, just go on a couple of verses. This is what the Almighty says, the God of Israel. Those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon build houses and settle down, plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters, find your wives or find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage so that they too may have sons and daughters increase in number there. Do not decrease, also seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. pray to the Lord for it because if it prospers, you too will prosper. And then it goes on and I won't keep going. But so the interpretation I've heard, even in some of like, you know, in my engagement around um this issue of Christian nationalism, is that they're used as almost like demand the welfare of the nation. This is a call to demand the welfare of a nation. and it functions almost like as a warrant for a city or national engagement. um How would you respond to someone, maybe they're posting online, maybe they're, you know, they put in the comments of this, you know, of this show, well, what about Jeremiah 29 and just seek the welfare of the city? How would you respond? Yeah, that's a good question. And this is one of those moments I think this is a great example because it's that moment of like stopping and trying to understand the context of the passage as opposed to just, you know, picking a verse or a very short passage and then applying it to our situation because in this context, it's it's it's being written to the exiles, right? We heard that word a couple of times as you're reading it. And so they're in Babylon. And we need to learn a little bit about what that means then. What does it mean to be a Hebrew person living as an oppressed minority group in Babylon. What it doesn't mean is that they're going to take over the government, make Babylon great again, and codify everything through government power. They don't have that option. And which is why what's being called for in the passage is not some kind of nationalistic taking over, seizing power. It's actually the opposite. It's a you're not going to have power and you might be tempted to just Constantly be fighting and rebelling against that but you're called to engage very Locally not to gain power but to bring Shalom right on a very personal local level building a community creating families Getting engaged with your neighbors, which is I mean this case very literally like people that you're living next to right and so it is a call to make your community better, but there's nothing in the text about taking over government and Controlling it and making this a Christian nation I'm going to also get your response to something I read about just recently. Texas just recently hired somebody for their school board to advise them. He goes by the name of David Barton. um On his website, Wall Builders, he outlines how the Trinity, or I'll back up, the three branches of government. ah mirror the Trinity in some regards. um I don't think he used exact Bible verses to make that connection. If he did, feel free to correct me. ah But it seems more of a concept ah that he's trying to manifest. How would a reader of your book take what they've learned and apply it to? you know, like interpreting like that particular thing I just described. Yeah, I mean, you know, with David Barton, it's never, you're never really sure where the ideas come from. uh You know, don't know if he had a bad burrito the night before and dreamed it or something. Cause I mean, he's been caught making up a lot of quotes from the founders and making a lot of these claims. Just because there are three things doesn't mean it's like drawn from the Trinity. I mean, there's literally three of us here and I'm not going to suggest that we represent the Trinity. I mean, unless you want to fight over who's who. uh Right. I mean it is that like seeing the hidden code and everything but it's his his attempt again He's starting with this premise He's starting with the idea that America was founded as a Christian nation and therefore everything about our former government It was therefore from the Bible right and he needs to make all of these justifications And it's just not it's just it's just not there He's making stuff up because he's starting with the premise first and then seeking evidence or creating evidence as opposed to like Learning the complexity of the story. I mean we weren't found it as a Christian nation Many of our founders did have Christian beliefs and many of them didn't. It's all very messy. It doesn't fit a narrative very well that either side likes to tell. The nuance is lost when you're just seeking power. But yeah, the idea that David Barton is now advising for social studies standards um is quite alarming. I mean he has no business creating standards for our kids to you know to learn history because he literally had a book pulled by a conservative Christian publishing house for making stuff up I mean, you know this guy should never be trusted when it comes to you know creating, you know social studies curriculum standards I agree with that. I don't know much about David Barton. I've done some work. Again, I always want to be fair. So in the sense that, and I'm not saying you're not, Brian, what I'm saying is that you've probably had a lot more interaction with Dave Barton than I have in his writings. And so you very immediately understand the issues and can articulate them. I just am not at that level of understanding what he's thinking. hearing that the three branches of government are from the Trinity, I thought they were from Rome or something like that, or based on basically Roman jurisprudence and then British jurisprudence or whatever it was that we inherited. um So anyway, it's difficult, but can I get you to maybe interpret, me figure out one more? em verse. So, yeah, dude, this is so good. Like, you're helping me out. No, like, this idea, and again, I'm not even as familiar with the verse, so I'm going to need to like look it up, but it's in Zechariah 8, and it's invoked for truth and justice in the gates as a political ethic. um So it's like, you have, it's... you have to use this to, it's a call to em fight for the truth, be for the truth and all of that. And I guess even with that particular uh interpretation of that verse, and we can't go with it, but we don't have time. We could go into it, but we really don't have time. um Even with that though, it's almost like there's a connection to just this deeper, right, issue. And I think part of the confusion, and I heard this a lot, people saying things like, I'm a Christian and a nationalist. I'm not a Christian nationalist. I've heard that recently quite a bit. Also this sense, like, and everyone's asking and they're saying like, well, you just want me to stay silent? You just want me to be walked all over by the left? You know, you just, what's wrong? with just being a Christian and advocating for Christian values in the public square. And I even had a guy argue with me on a post that I made. He's like, what's wrong with having biblical law be our law? He's like, what's wrong with that? Literally. he's like, which one are you opposed to? No stealing? No murder? No adultery? No LGBTQ? no other gods. literally that's, I'm not quoting you verbatim, but that's the paraphrase. Can you help, can you respond to that? I I responded in my own way, which I feel comfortable with, but I would love to hear your response to that argument. Yeah, I mean, if we're gonna go biblical laws, I mean, let's do it, right? We gotta shut down all the red lobsters um because that's an abomination um to God. And we need to arrest everyone who's trimming the sideburns of their beards, right? I mean, like, you know, this idea of they wanna... Oh yeah. gone. Yeah, that's right, right? And you know, all of our shirts are probably trouble because they're mixed materials and right? So, you know, they say they want to just follow biblical law, but they're being selectively literal in what passages they want to apply and what they don't. But I also think it gets to the bigger question of... What kind of nation do we want to be? Because everyone should be able to be themselves in the public square. Should be able to bring their whole selves into this public square to talk openly in the public square about their faith. But that then applies to everyone. And the uniqueness that we have with the American experiment is that our founders separated church and state because that's precisely what allows religion to flourish. Right. So this question of, you know, you know, legislating biblical law, this is one of the things that got Roger Williams in was the founder of Rhode Island. He was the co-founder of the First Baptist Church in the Americas And he got kicked out of Massachusetts Bay Colony, which was a Christian National Estate where Because he disagreed with the theology of the establishment Then he was also now not welcome to be a citizen and they banished him into the wilderness They banished several others they they even hung three Quakers for being Quakers and I mean I don't know like if like if you can't get along with the quake That's a pretty radical government by the way like like it's your problem, not theirs. m like we're talking about the Quakers. We're crying out loud, right? but roger williams his argument on the ten commandments, right? Which I think is your question was that government can only deal with the the second table the you not stealing You know the that that kind of not murdering right the government can have some jurisdiction over those Not because it's in the bible, but because these are moral ethic codes that are in lots of religious traditions and lots of cultures because it makes society better if we don't have everyone going around just taking whatever they want and killing whoever they want right it's good for the society if we have less stealing less murder and so on right but what he what he insisted was that the government has no authority over the first table The no graven images, the honoring the Sabbath, the no God before God, right? This is individual conscience and the government does not have the right to govern that or impose rules. And that is part of the reasons why he got kicked out and went off to Rhode Island to create a new colony based on religious freedom for everyone. And amazingly, a hundred years later, our government started with that same idea. I mean, there were people that wanted us to be a Christian nation. like John Adams and Patrick Henry, but they lost that debate to James Madison and Thomas Jefferson and John Leland and others. And it allowed religion to flourish. I think it's one of reasons why Christianity has done so well in the United States as opposed to Western Europe where they all had established churches and everyone's still a member today and nobody actually goes to church. I mean, you know, I don't know if I said this the last time I was on your all show, but you know, it's good enough. So we'll repeat it if I did. But my favorite quote in thinking about this problem of mixing church and state is what Tony Campolo used to joke in that mixing church and state is like mixing ice cream and manure. It doesn't hurt the manure, but it sure messes up the ice cream. And this is what I Christian nationalists forget. They always think that this time it'll work. This time we'll establish biblical law and we'll create a heaven on earth. And it never works. It always ends up poorly for the government, but even more so it always ends up poorly for the faith. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. You know, one thing that you mentioned that I think a lot of people might have a question about is like thinking about the 10 commandments. So what do you think about the argument where, and even like, I think, cause I was looking this up, em thinking about it, Van Orden v. Perry. I don't even really, I've heard of it, right? But I don't really know it that well, but essentially uh Chief Justice Rehnquist, He argued that the display, they had a display of the 10 Commandments oh in the Texas State Capitol, and it had a primarily historical and moral context, not just a religious one, and thus did not violate the Establishment Clause. And so what is the response that you have when people are like, well, hey, hey, hey, what's wrong with the 10 Commandments? It's just, it's a moral law, it's neutral. It's historical moral context and it doesn't, and they would say this is what they said in this Supreme Court decision. What's going on in your heart with that? because we're also dealing with this, as you know, in state legislatures across the country are trying to force the Ten Commandments to be posted in every single public school classroom. Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas have already passed this law, although they've all been blocked so far by judges. And some 20 other states have considered the bills. And I do want to do one first little clarification is that we always call them the Ten Commandments, but they're actually not. Like it's a highly edited version or maybe I can say it's a highly gerrymandered version of the Ten Commandments that's on the monument in Texas and then the monument language in Texas is the language that all the bills are using to force into schools. They're based not on the Bible but on the monument outside the Texas Capitol. um And so, but it actually, it's actually only 37 percent, it's based on the King James Version but only 37 percent of the words are actually still there. So they've cut out almost two-thirds of what Moses brought down from the mountain. So I don't know why they're canceling God so much But like it's like some of its theological stuff like so the beginning says I am the Lord thy God and then they put a period There's actually a comma who brought you out of Egypt out of slavery, right? So there's a theological statement about why? This is the Lord your God But of course that time about bringing people out of slavery probably would get in the way of all those anti DEI laws So we can't teach that in schools today. So we got to cut that And and while it's mostly the King James again, you will not find this version of the Ten Commandments in any Bible Because they cut out, know, 63 % of it and they actually even changed the words a couple of times It so it says that you cannot covet your neighbor's cattle Which is not what the King James says It says nor his ox. Oh, excuse me. Yeah nor his ox nor his ass And I and I don't know if there's yes, right. We're originalist here now. Come on I don't know if they're saying it's okay to like cover your neighbor's donkey now or if they were just trying to censor the Bible uh And so yeah, but this idea that it's historical like that's also really kind of ironic coming from Warrington Quist because the history of that monument is it's an ad It's a movie advertisement, right? So Cecil Mills putting out his movie with Charlton Heston and starts getting working with the Fraternal Order of Eagles to put these monuments on public places around the country, right? It promotes the movie. He even has the star show up at some of them so Charlton Heston and Yuri Brunner, the guy who plays Pharaoh are at the installation service for the one at the Texas Capitol. The most disappointing part to me is the Pharaoh guy doesn't stay in character. So he's like talking about how great the Ten Commandments are. So that's kind of sad. I think he should have been there like still been like Pharaoh. um But right so like I mean, Barely. I mean, it only been around for like four decades. And the idea that they're saying we should have the Ten Commandments in public schools, again, this highly edited version because the founding fathers supposedly built their laws on the Ten Commandments, even though they didn't talk about the Ten Commandments during the Constitutional Convention. But again, this is not the version of the Ten Commandments that the founding fathers would have actually read. It's not actually that historic. But it's all about, it's a marker. It's a way of stamping and saying, we're Christian. And you don't uphold this, you're a second class citizen at best. And that's troubling at the state capitol. It's even worse to try to put it in public school classrooms to tell some children every single day that you're not a real American and you're not really part of the school because you don't believe in the Ten Commandments or you don't believe in this version, which is the Protestant version of the Ten Commandments and it's ordered differently than Catholics and Jews. And so, right, they're saying you're if your rabbi or your priest has been teaching you the Ten Commandments or your parents have been teaching you the Ten Commandments, they're wrong. This is what they're actually like. I don't think the government should be rewriting the Ten Commandments or any sacred text and then forcing it on to children as what the Bible says. And I think that's a pretty conservative argument, by the way. I don't think I don't trust the government to rewrite the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Well, Brian. So obviously everybody's going to buy your book, New York Time Best Seller. I'm already calling it now. It's right there and it's blown up on a picture behind you for those that are watching on YouTube. It's pretty cool. It's almost the exact size. Look at that. So yeah, promote the book, tell people where they can buy it, but also let people know a little bit about what Word & Way is doing. We didn't really talk too much about it, but yeah, I just want to make sure that people know about it. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate being here. uh The Bible According to Christian National is officially out October 7th and you can order it anywhere. Child's Press is the publisher. can order it from childspress.com, but Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Target, Bookshop, anywhere you like to buy your books. It'll be out in paperback as well as ebook format. And then also, if you'd like to follow us at Word & Way, a couple of key places to do that is I host a podcast, Dangerous Dogma, and you can find that at dogma.wordandway.org or wherever you're listening to this program. And then also our e-newsletter, A Public Witness, is the main thing that I would encourage you to check out. We're writing about Christian nationalism and a lot of other important issues about faith and politics. That's publicwitness.wordandway.org. That's awesome. Well, Brian, thanks again for everything. We always love having you on it. And just on a personal note, I often tell people when I mention, I mean, I don't talk to a lot of people because I'm a bit of an introvert. But when I do talk to people and I tell them that I know you, I'm like, Brian and Bo, man, they were like one of the first people that reached out to Josh and I when we were just getting off the ground because you all thought that we were much bigger than we really were because we had a nice website. And uh we've only grown like maybe a little bit, but people are still crazy enough to want to come on our show. uh But I don't think I've ever really had a chance to really thank you guys for just believing in us because who are we? We're just like two normal dudes, right? We don't have any letters. Well, I've got one letter. Well, I got two letters behind my name, but not even applicable to religion and politics. So yeah, so just thank you for that. And yeah, I really appreciate that. Well, you all are doing great work. It's always great to be here. And it was fun so much to meet you earlier this year in person in DC. uh one of the robots or the actors that I've heard are all over. most of the time we talk, I'm like in pajamas. Like all you can see is like from here, here on up, you know. So I had to like this first time talking to you wearing pants. It was amazing. I loved it. uh Anyways. That's right. That's right. Well, uh thanks again, Ryan, and thanks to our uh audience for being here. And as always, make sure to keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care.