In Defense of Christian Patriotism with Daniel Darling

In this episode of Faithful Politics, hosts Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram sit down with Daniel Darling, director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of more than 20 books, including In Defense of Christian Patriotism. Darling joins the hosts to discuss the difference between Christian nationalism and Christian patriotism, arguing that love of country can be a form of discipleship—so long as it’s rightly ordered under a higher allegiance to Christ.

The conversation explores the nuanced relationship between faith, politics, and national identity, unpacking how patriotism can both inspire civic virtue and, when disordered, slip into idolatry. Darling challenges the modern assumption that religious expression in public life is inherently dangerous, showing instead how a grounded Christian worldview can strengthen democracy.

Guest Bio
Daniel Darling is the Director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and a professor at Texas Baptist College. A bestselling author and respected voice on faith and public life, he has written more than 20 books, including In Defense of Christian Patriotism, The Characters of Christmas, and The Dignity Revolution. His work has been featured in outlets such as USA Today, Christianity Today, and The Gospel Coalition.
Darling is known for his ability to engage cultural and political issues with biblical depth, humility, and conviction—calling Christians to participate in public life without losing sight of the kingdom of God.

Learn more at danieldarling.com and follow him on X (Twitter) @dandarling.

In Defense of Christian Patriotism (Bookshop): https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780063413948

Transcript

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Hey, welcome back, faithful politics listeners and watchers. If you're watching us on our YouTube channel, we are so glad to have you. Make sure you like, subscribe and do all that kind of fun stuff. I am your political host. My name is Will Wright and I'm joined by my ever faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? doing well thanks Will. And today we are joined by Daniel Darling. is director of the Land, wait, let me get this right, director of the Land Center for Cultural Engagement at Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary and a professor at Texas Baptist College. There probably should have been a few more periods in there. He's also the author of more than 20 books, including his latest In Defense of Christian Patriotism, where he takes on the tough conversations about faith, love of country and the stereotypes that... come with them. So welcome to the show, Daniel. Well, thank you for having me and just glad to be on. I what you guys are doing to uh get people who don't agree to talk to each other and have these conversations. Yeah, yeah. And hopefully we'll get into a lot more of that because we've got tons of questions and yeah, I'm really looking forward to getting into the book. But before we do that, I have to ask, um what is the Land Center for Cultural Engagement? um the center here at Southwestern Seminary. Richard Land was the president of the SBC's public policy arm for like 25 years, kind of a statesman in our convention, and the centers are named after him. And really, you know, I teach on faith and culture issues in the college, and then we host events from time to time on, you know, cultural and political issues and those kinds of things on campus here. Awesome. Yeah, my that's my bad for it for whatever reason. The land didn't connect with me that that was a person's name. And yeah, I'm I'm smarter for it now. But to get into your book. So defense of Christian patriotism. Give us kind of like the broad overview of what it's about. Why did you write it? uh And yeah. And then once once once you're done, I've got a few more questions for you. Yeah, I mean, a couple of reasons. mean, one, uh know, America is approaching her 250th birthday. And I know there's gonna be a lot of conversations about love of country. What does that look like? uh Particularly among Christians and even people are not Christians. You know, what does the of faith play in politics? That's a perennial debate, um you know, between. You know, uh freedom and democracy and Christianity. Um, I think those are heightened now with, with the, assassination of Charlie Kirk and the Memorial last night, you know, people are having these conversations, but I really wanted to do a couple of things. think one, you know, in the last, I think decade, a couple of decades, there's been a kind of, Um, an attempt, I think by many who cover religion or academics or even, you know, some evangelicals themselves to kind of say that you know, mixing Christianity and politics or Christianity and patriotism is ah inappropriate ah either from the spiritual side that, you know, if that it's always a form of idolatry, that you're always putting your country over your faith, over your faith if you do that. ah Or, you know, maybe even dangerous, you know, that Christians who engage in the public square, who vote in elections, who mobilize based on the Christian faith. um are dangerous for the country, right? I mean, there's been a lot of a lot of books written about that. um And I'm not a Christian nationalist, but a lot of any activity in this realm, you know, any time a politician quotes Bible verses or Christians getting engaged in public score, it's been kind of labeled as Christian nationalism. And I think there is a kind of a version of that. But uh it's been given this elastic definition that anybody So therefore these are dangerous people. And I guess what I'm saying is I'm making the argument that uh love of country um can not only coincide with uh Christian faith, but actually can be, Richard John Newhouse said 40 years ago, a species of discipleship. It can be a form of discipleship that if uh your loves are properly ordered, to quote C.S. Lewis and Augustine and others, that you can love your country well, that it's not always a binary choice. uh And actually, I've rightly ordered patriotism is good. A healthy patriotism can fit under an allegiance to Christ, an allegiance and under your faith. And I also make the case that the presence of Christianity in America and the influence of Christianity on America, uh for the most part, has been a net plus. It's a benefit. uh You know, the founders understood this, understood that for this uh experiment in order of liberty to work, that there had to be a thick virtue, a thick religion and really even Christianity, not created by the government, not forced by the government, but something that was there, was organic. It was good for this project to work. mean, Adams famously said this, liberty will only work for a religious and moral people. But even Jefferson, who is by far the most secular of the founders, had a real healthy sense of God's providence and directing the affairs of nations and things like that. And most of our leaders, many of our leaders throughout our history have appealed to America's Christian influence, right? If you think of uh FDR's D-Day prayer, you think of Reagan and the way he spoke, you think of even going back to people like Woodrow Wilson or Willie McKinley and Harry Truman, Dwight Eisenhower really, really acknowledged this. even up to the present, know, Obama, Clinton, the Bushes. mean, so it's only been in the last about 30, 25, 30 years where It's been seen as almost scary, dangerous, right? Mike Johnson gets up there to become a speaker of the house and talks about the providence of God and putting him there. And there are literally journalists writing and saying, you know, it sounds like a white nationalist with a smile. George Bush, you know, famously says that Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher. And it's, here's the coming age of theocracy and all that kind of stuff. And I'm just saying, no, this is actually healthy for a democracy. I make the argument that Christianity tames the best passions of people doing politics. When you live for another world, you actually serve this world best. Now, we all know there are extremes, and there are people who do put country over their faith. um So I'm not saying it's perfect, and I'm not saying people get this ordering wrong. But I think there's been such a tendency to push Christians away from that, that I even think a lot of good conservative church going Christians are even reticent about expressing love of country. I mean, you look at the polls, Pew Research did a poll that people are less patriotic than they've ever been. And so I think just a recapturing of what love of country is, what patriotism is, what it isn't, how to renew the country, and how we can, you know, make sure that this experiment is there for another 250 years. Yeah, you know what I love about everything you said is I agree with you. know, like, and uh which to our listeners, especially like our more left-leaning listeners, you might be like, I can agree with this guy. Because like, because I think there is a difference between like Christian nationalism and Christian patriotism. uh God, Stephen Smith made this really, really uh clear to us. We had him on talking about his book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called Godless Constitution in the Provincial Republic. uh It is a good book. uh That's his latest one. But um yeah, I think there is a distinction. uh And I would love for you to maybe just sort of help us understand kind of what those distinctions are. Because for the lay person that may not be following the latest on Christian nationalism news might look at a prayer offered before Congress and say that's Christian nationalism. So help us kind of understand the two. Yeah, think in my, of course the definition has been so bandied about, right? It's like, do we even know what it means anymore? But I do think in the purest sense of it, I think Christian nationalism or its counterpart, Christian nationalism is essentially sort of a Protestant project um or it's Catholic counterpart, Catholic integralism. I think in their purest form by people who actually self-identify, it's... A sort of dissatisfaction with the constitutional order and with uh ordered liberty and a kind of a longing, looking back with longing at sort of magisterial Protestantism, a state church, a kind of government forced Christianity. um And, you know, there's a couple of things to think about that one. Number one, um I think most Americans reject that. We did a survey a couple years ago of Southern Baptists, which is the largest Protestant denomination on all these issues on religious liberty, on liberty for everyone, not just ourselves, all that kind of thing. And overwhelmingly came back that, no, people want religious liberty not just for themselves, but for others. They don't want the government to force belief. They do want to be able to apply their Christian principles as they go to the ballot box and as they are active, just like everyone else brings a worldview to the table. They don't want that. And other surveys have shown, I mean, it's a really small percentage, maybe 5, 10 % or whatever, if that. um So number one, I think most Americans don't want that. They want religious liberty. They want what we have. Number two, as a Baptist, I would reject that. We believe, as it says in our uh Baptist faith and message, in a free church, in a free state. That's the Christian ideal. um However, um You know, and then third, would say, and then I'll get to the however third, I would say, you know, the founders understood this, they look back through all of human history, and they saw, you know, the idea of a state church, state religion, and it was never good for the state or the or the church. They didn't want that they wanted to separate power. But that all being said, I don't think they envisioned a kind of secularism that we've had for the last 50 to 60 years where secularism is kind of preached as the ideal, where we went from we don't want to stay church to we want to expunge all contact between religion and the government, religion and activism. And so for a while you had these, you know, the lemon test at the Supreme Court where, you anytime there's contact between government and religion, it's bad. So you had, you know, social service agencies, not able to work with the government, all those kinds of things. Thankfully, the Supreme Court has put down some good jurisprudence the last decade or so to say, no, this is good. And we shouldn't discriminate against these agencies or whatever because they have Christian beliefs. And I think increasingly people are saying, you know, it's OK for Christian politicians to talk about their beliefs. People bring their beliefs to the public square, whether you're progressive or whether you're conservative. You are in politics and you're active because you have a core belief system about how you think about the things you think are best for society and best for human flourishing. And you bring that to the table. Everyone does that. And that's that's the American experiment. And that's not unhealthy. Right. So I think there's a distinguishing here. um And as Christians, you know, we believe as a Baptist, I believe the government is not in the in the uh, position of deciding right and wrong belief. The government, you know, that's, that's something that that's God's job, right? It's, it's Christ who separates the sheep from the goats at the end of the age. The government is not equipped to decide right and wrong belief, to, force Christianity coerced. Um, belief is not true belief, right? And Christianity says that humans are made in the image of God. And so for government to trample the conscience and to force belief, is a violation of their humanity. And so we want religious liberty for not just for ourselves, but for everyone. And also we believe that Christianity um can prevail and persuade in the marketplace of ideas. And so I think both of those things can be true. secularism, don't think, is the answer, pushing all this out of the public square. And yet it's a very few number of people that really want to state church or want to. get rid of, dismantle the project that we have here, the American experiment. Yeah, I really appreciate what you're saying. And, you know, a lot of thoughts are coming to my mind and came to my mind while you were talking, because it is like this weird... And I've talked about this a lot on the show, like, what is Christian nationalism? And I heard a lot of definitions of it. And so it's like, conceptually, I get it. But then so conceptually in the sense that in order to be a good, if I could phrase it very shortly, very almost simplistic. but it's in order to be a good Christian, you need to be a good American, and in order to be a good American, you need to be a good Christian. And we're gonna force that. So it's like that, or like we're gonna get to the place where that's like, this is our nation, we are Christian officially, and our laws are gonna reflect that, our policy is gonna reflect that, or you know, we're gonna reflect that. And there are, you know, like Dominionism, for instance, and again, that's like a very broad term, right? author by author. You know, you think about Rush Dooney, you think about C. Peter Wagner, and I know he's not the same as Rush Dooney. Rush, Rush Dooney. I just said Rush Doody. That was not what I meant to say. Rush Dooney. um And I think that like, you have these, I know that they're not the same, but it's like this almost like, there are these areas that we need to take over. We've heard a lot about the seven mountain mandates. And again, on one hand, if it's just, we're having seven mountains, we're gonna pray about, we're gonna strategize about how to influence that. I mean, that's what everyone's doing. And so it is like this weird, like, it's this weird blurred line that is hard to understand. It's like you understand it at the extremes. But at em the boundary lines, they're more blurred. And it's more difficult to distinguish between, well, is this person crossed over into Christian nationalism? Or are they just a patriot that's a Christian, right? And have that. I agree. When I was looking at your argument, I'm like, yes. Yes. God places us in particular nations. Yes. Yes, Christians are commanded to love their neighbors, seek the welfare of communities that they're in. Yes, yes. So from that, loving our country is very appropriate. em And we should do that. And we should bring our full selves into it. And yet somehow, when I have been like engaging in this, and this is where I'm trying to figure out, is it just my intuition now going crazy because I've had all these other people. that have not been the kind of voices I had in the past, super conservative voices. I have more liberal voices that I've like from the podcast, of course, like my friendship with Will and from the podcast. I'm like, am I just like, is it like my intuition and feelings just changing all the time? And I'm just trying to bring myself to a place of reason because I'm like, how do I even trust my heart? Sorry, go ahead. You can respond to that. Yeah. good instinct. I think we have to distinguish, I think one thing that I'm advocating for and I think most even conservatives are advocating for, Christian conservatives is we understand that um though we can do a lot of good in this world, that it's still a fallen world and our expectations of what we can accomplish have to be constrained in that way. And I think both sides suffer from this sort of utopianism. But I think, you know, progressives have a similar thing, you know, and I think Christians who are church going Christians who are understanding that Christ, that is his kingdom is not of this world. that there's another world to come, um are realistic in what they expect they to do. But we also think we can do really good things in our time, in our generation. We can make a difference. We can win elections and enact good policy. We can help in our communities. We can build churches. We can see hearts and lives change from addiction and all these other maladies. We can improve the education system, all these kinds of things. And yet we know we're never going to create heaven on earth. We're never going to. This is not the kingdom of God. um And so I think that's, know, so when you talk about like seven mountains mandate and all that, you know, to me, a lot of that, when people talk about going to every sphere and having an influence, that's really stems from Abraham Kuyper, you know, Kyperian uh sphere sovereignty, Kyperian idea of Christians using their gifts to go into the. these different places and influence it for Christ to bring the Christian worldview to bear. A lot of Christians believe that. It doesn't mean they're envisioning that one day every single person in the United States to be Christian is going to agree with them. We know that will never happen until, you know, we'll never achieve something like that until Christ returns. Right. And makes all things new. But we can make a difference. We think Christians can go into these areas and make a difference. And it's good and healthy. And by the way, everybody believes that. Whether or not you're a Christian, everybody has a worldview that they bring into the public square that motivates them to do these things or that motivates them to go teach or motivates them to go into the arts or into business. Right. And so I don't think it's something to be scared of. Now, I think there is a there is a subset that's very small, as I mentioned before, that does envision a, you know, a Christian state with a a with a Christian Caesar. you know, that's in charge and all that kind of stuff. um And most conservative Christians reject that. They appreciate the wisdom of the founders vision and m this project of ordered liberty. um You know, and they would reject sort of that. you know, I realistically, if you're thinking about it, um United States is not going to vote for a state church. Right. mean, we can barely get a pro-life referendum, which I'm in favor of and I advocate for. We can barely get one of those in a red state. Right. So the idea that we're to get voters to vote for a Christian, you know, a state church, but you know, most, most evangelical Christians who are active politically don't want that. They love their country. They understand this world is imperfect. There's always going to be pockets of, of injustice and pockets of, inequality, all that kinds of thing, but they want to do what they can while they can in the time that they have to make a difference. Yeah, yeah, everything you said. Because I think it's just like super, super insightful. I want to get I want to get your perspective on on two different tipping points um as it relates to patriotism, because it seems like there there is like one tipping point where a person might be, quote unquote, so patriotic. uh that they want to harm the country, uh but then also be so patriotic that they want to worship the country and bring in, I don't know, deify, if you will, the American flag, where it's almost like the Constitution takes precedence over biblical values. So I'd love for you just to help us of better understand oh you know, how can or does patriotism, you know, corrupt us, make us into terrorists? And how does patriotism, you know, amplify like our own beliefs in God and how that gets transposed maybe in our own patriotism? Yeah, that's a great question. mean, first of all, um like patriotism, like any of our loves can be can be disordered. know, C.S. Lewis, um I borrow a lot from C.S. Lewis book, The Four Loves, and he borrows from Augustine. I also borrow some from Chesterton as well. And but Lewis talked about uh about ordering our loves. And it's not a binary choice. Right. And we understand this instinctively. You know, when I walked the aisle or when my wife walked the aisle 23 years ago, I pledged allegiance to my wife. Now I understand that that is a lesser allegiance than my allegiance to God. But actually, when you have your loves in order, you are better able to love those lesser things. Right. So if I love God the most and that's my highest allegiance, I'll actually love my country in a way that is good for my country, right? ah Just like as a parent, if my children are my highest allegiance, I'll actually not be a good father. I'll try to live through them vicariously. I'll be disappointed that they can't bring into my life things that only God can do. And I'll end up destroying them. And it's the same way with the country. ah But if you love God first and you love your country in the right ordering, you can actually be a good American, a good citizen. And I would argue that Um, people who want to destroy their country don't actually love it's not, that's actually not patriotism, right? patriotism is a deep love for the country, the places, the ideals, the symbols, all those times, times with things. And that we want to invest our time in this, you know, the time we have to make it better. Right. Um, so I mean, the scripture does have cases of disordered loves, right? I mean, I think Jonah is a great example of. And I talk about this in the book of someone who was a patriot. He loved his country, but when God sent him on a mission to their rival, their enemy, he didn't want to go. And it's not that he didn't think God could redeem them. He actually knew God could redeem him and he didn't want him to, right? He was honest about that. One quick comment about that, if you look at a map, Jonah actually went to like the farthest place he possibly could go. The far I want to get out of here. And so that's a kind of disordered love, but I don't actually think that's. Patriotism, on the other hand, what I see, I see some of that today, you know, where politics, this is why I think church going Christians who are going to a good church every week. It tames your path, it can tame your passions. Politics can become an idol. It can become a religion. ah I think we're seeing that a lot. So whenever you see political violence, I think it's politics become a religion. And I think that's not, you know, that's a bipartisan problem, right? ah But I would say what actually makes me the most nervous is actually not people being too patriotic, than loving their country, more than loving God. I'm actually seeing the opposite where You know, if you look at the Pew Research polls, people are less patriotic now than they've ever been. I think there's an apathy toward the country and even a loathing of the country. I mean, you can see like Fourth of July, people can't just say, you know, Happy Birthday America. They have to have 17 caveats about how awful we are. And, know, it's just which is just weird. Like when my wife has a birthday, I don't tell her I love you despite all of these 15 flaws I'm telling you about right now. You know what mean? So that's just a weird posture. I think there's a deep apathy and sometimes a nihilism. You you even see in some of these acts of political violence, what you see is a nihilism that everything's stupid, everything's bad, nothing's good. I think I'm just going to be candid here for a second. I think an educational system that flinches at patriotism, flinches at love of country and teaches kids that the entire American project, the whole history of it is one of just bad things, oppression and all these things can sow those seeds, right? I think when we teach history, we need to teach the whole story. We don't want to whitewash our sins, whitewash our dark parts in American history, but that's not the whole story. We got to tell the whole story about our ideals and how we've overcome some of those things. And if people don't have that, they form this kind of, you know, hatred for the country they're in. The last thing I'll say, particularly as a Christian, I patriotism is in essence a form of gratitude. It's saying, I'm grateful for what God has given me in this country. I'm grateful for the country I've been handed down to. It's not perfect. It's got a lot of issues. I want to make it better for the next generation, but it's a form of gratitude, I think. You know, just one point of agreement um that you seemed a little reluctant to make, but I, again, I think I agree with you on this point about um kind of kids and especially colleges. uh So for better or for worse, I've been reading a ton of Greg Lugiano's work um and better understanding kind of like the... the cancel culture, the censorship um that takes place in a lot of these uh college campuses and what have you. I think that's bad for our uh society because I um think a point he made or John the hate made uh using inoculation as an example, I think that we have to be inoculated by uh different ideas or- we're gonna end up in a place where we don't even know how to respond to them. So we just like try to banish them, try to like cancel them. So yeah, I just wanted to let you know and feel free to respond to that if you want. Yeah, I think you're right. think we need our, you know, I think we need to have a free exchange of ideas and not be afraid of having conversations and interacting with people that disagree with us. Increasingly, we're siloed into our kind of echo chambers. It's interesting. We have access to more people and more resources than any time in human history. And yet we're a little bit more siloed because of the algorithms and things. ah So I actually think however you feel about Charlie Kirk, if you, if you agree with him or if you don't, I do think what he was doing was a noble thing to go. and put himself in places where people disagreed with him and have debates. um I think it's really good. conservatives and um liberals left, right, and across the spectrum, we have to share this country. And so I think we should have robust debates. We should bring our views to the public square without flinching. We should not hold back. think we shouldn't be afraid to share those in terms of how they affect public policy. But then also say, You know, um, you know, we, we share this country with other people and, um we want to, we want to make it, make it great in that way. And that's, that's one thing I think Charlie was trying to do. Um, and I'm encouraged, you know, I'm, seeing more, more, um, openness toward free expression. think there were some places in America, some institutions that were kind of, um, siloed and it's really different too, right? If you are a confessional institution, like a church, or denomination or Christian college, you have a confessional heritage. There's a certain set of beliefs that guide you. So you're going to be less hospitable to um changing your core uh beliefs. However, you know, it's interesting and many of our and I work in Christian higher education, Christian higher education. These kids are exposed to a lot of different ideas. You know, they're taught. How do I think through all these things through the lens of my faith, biblical worldview? um I think our public universities, our state universities serve our public trust and they serve the country best when there's a free exchange of ideas. When conservatives aren't made to feel like, you know, they need to hide for being conservative. um When you can have liberals and conservatives, you know, have these debates. or progressives hiding from other progressives in the case of Evergreen State College. yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So I think we have to work on this as a long-term project. This would be for the health of our democracy. This is vitally important. ah But I'm encouraged, I think, by some new openness that I'm seeing. And ah it's an ongoing project, though. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts. you know, just so like you have a sense of where I'm at, like I consider myself very conservative. And yet I also know that conservatism, I kind of feel like to be honest with you that the goalpost got moved on me. It was like, oh, by the way, being conservative means you're MAGA now. in a lot of people's minds. You're going to be MAGA, that's conservatism. um Boom. And so, wait, I thought conservatism was just like, for me, really was just, I mean... I just was trying to be more and more like understand what the scripture is accurately teaching about this and to do my best. Right? And so if that then becomes non-conservative, then I'm going to side with the scripture over the uh society's definition of conservatism. Do you agree with that? Do you think that's... Yeah, I mean, it's it's complicated, right? So um because you know, the way politics works in a democracy, and particularly in our democracy, is through coalitions, right? And so if you look at the history of the United States, the coalitions have changed, right? um And I'm with you. I'm a three stool conservative. I'm a Ronald Reagan, three stool conservative, social conservative, economic conservative and peace through strength foreign policy. um But the coalitions change. Right. And you're always having to be co-belligerent in some way with people who disagree with you on one or two issues. But you agree on these issues and you're forming a coalition in order to win elections, in order to take power. Right. Happens on the Democratic side, too. And they shift. Right. I if you look at the great shift in the last decade, um know, the Republican Party for my lot of my lifetime until, you know, the last decade or so was, you know, social conservatives and sort of country club economic Republicans, suburban Republicans, and the Democrats were the party of the working class. They were the party like working class plus some of your, um you know, uh labor unions, ethnic coalitions. immigration. Yeah, yeah. Immigration like uh some of those groups and those coalitions have swapped. Democrats have picked up more suburban voters um and Republicans have picked up more of the working class voters, people who never used to vote for Republican. You know, my dad's a retired plumber and I used to go to the job site with him tradesman and tradesmen were almost always Democrats when I was a kid. My dad was always a Republican, but because social conservative views. But, you know, it was a tension there because he's in the union, but he's this and it's really switched, you know, and there's good and bad. And so I think Christians like me, we find ourselves in a coalition with people with whom we agree on a few things. Right. um And I think Trump did a good job of saying, what are the things all these coalitions agree on? But then there's things we disagree on, right? There's things we prioritize that they don't. So you're always in that coalition. You're having to fight for to get your issues heard. just like is on the left side of ledger. it's complicated. I do talk in the book about how Christians, I think we can be members of parties because in this democracy, this is how you, if you want to be active and you want to get things done politically, get laws passed, you have to be a member of a party. I think we can be part of lesser of institutions, earthly institutions and join them. but hold them loosely, right? So I'm part of this party, but I don't agree with everything in this party, and I'm gonna try to bring a witness to bear in this party for the things that I care about, knowing you're having to compromise with people in this coalition in order to get things done. So it's messy, it's complicated, it's always been like that. Even religion and politics, if you look through American history, it's always been a little messy like that. Always has been, if you go back to even like William Jennings Bryan and the temperance movements and. even the founding. So I'm not trying to say there's no issues, you know, like you said, as a conservative, me, three still conservative, we're in coalition now with people that, man, I like, I've always been a free trader. I've always been, you know, all these things. So, you know, but then I think back to the previous era where we had, we had uncomfortable coalitions with country club Republicans and they didn't always prioritize our issues either. So you're just sort of always in that delicate dance when you're doing politics, you know. For those not watching, actually, you what? I'm not even going to say it. You just watch the YouTube video, because my Apple computer used to do the same thing whenever I go like this for any length of time. Did a little thumbs up come up on your screen? It's so weird. It didn't happen to you, Daniel? Really? I'm sorry. I'll edit this out. That was just really strange. was awesome. It was that. uh you put your thumbs up, like, it'll do that whole thing. You know, I hear what you're saying and I that the complicated nature of politics and having to find coalitions with people and, know, again, like you're going to have to work with people in order to get things done. And that is a part of our American politics. It's part of every politics. And I totally, I totally agree with that. And I think that like the The patriotism idea is very, very intriguing to me because it was interesting. And I'll throw this out to you just to get your comments and your thoughts on it. So I actually said this. There's a group of guys that I meet with em on Monday nights. And they're from my church. And most of them that We've the guys we've been meeting them. It's me and then the other three are african-american. They're black guys um And I said one time Yeah, I think that Christians should be good Patriots and I was challenged with like the idea that One of them challenged me one of my friends challenged me and said um Yeah, I think We should be good citizens in good and loving of neighbor, but I don't think the Bible says that we should be patriots. I don't, and I was saying, um well, I think, like, I felt like this is my country. Like I love this country. like, this is, like it's, I think of this country when I think of America, I think of this is my country, mine, like, and I have ownership in it. m And my friends, um they said, yeah, I never really felt like this was my country because of the way that I was treated and the way that my parents were treated and my grandparents and stuff like that. And it was striking to me. It was striking to me because to me, it was very obvious it was my country. Very obvious. m And to my friends who all were born here and grew up here, same as me, it didn't feel that obvious. I guess I'm just pointing out the tension of um how we view America and how we work through our patriotism. Because I can imagine that someone that was in a any of the, any time in history where they were in a country and the government they didn't agree with, or maybe it became authoritarian, or maybe something happened, right? This has happened in the past. It's not a, it's not, you know, um an unlikely scenario or anything, or an impossible scenario. And I just wonder, like, they were Christians, right? And then they had to, they had to work through, what, what's happening right now is not... is not what I want for my country. This is not me. And so it's like, how do we balance this patriotism? Because we're going to be called a bad, we're not, we're going to be called like, we're going to be said that we're not a patriot at times by the ruling party or the ruling people. Yeah, those are great questions. Honestly, a couple answers there. The first one first, and then I want to talk about the second one because there's I think historical examples that are helpful. the first one, you know, when we say we love our country, we mean we don't love everything the country is doing or policies. And like, you know, I think of my family. I love my family. You know, that doesn't mean I always think everything in my family is good or healthy. Right. Or. that think people in my family aren't doing things that they should not be doing or whatever. um And I hear that when people who have been mistreated feel like this isn't my country, I don't feel like this is my country. I guess the thing I would say is the way to actually change that is to take ownership of the country and say, because when I think about that uh Frederick Douglass is, what to the slave is a Fourth of July? He is actually saying, a sense, wait a minute, this is our country too. And those ideals that we say that we live up to, all men are created equal, that belongs to us too. And when MLK says America has a promissory note that we haven't fulfilled about all men are created equal, he's saying, no, this is my country. I love her ideals. We're not fulfilling it. So in a sense, they took ownership of it. So it can be a deeply patriotic thing. to work for social change to make your country better, right? um I'm very pro-life and I march in the March for Life every year. I don't like that our country aborts so many children. It breaks my heart. I still love my country and because I love my country, this is why I'm doing it. It's like if you have a child who's wayward, you actually want a child to change because you love them. If you didn't love them, you just wouldn't care. So I think. I think that's kind of a um way to think about it. um And patriotism, Teddy Roosevelt is a quote in the book about this, but patriotism sometimes means being active, sometimes means opposing a current policies or whatever. On the one example you mentioned, there's you know, what about what about Christians in other countries that oppressed, know, um think of our brothers and sisters in China or or in Iran or in North Korea and It's hard to be patriotic when you're in that position. I would say there's a way to do it where you love the place and you love the history of the people But you oppose the government and you wish it was different, right? um I even think of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, right? Dietrich Bonhoeffer opposing Hitler and risking his life for Hitler. You could argue he did that because he was a patriot. He wanted a different and better Germany. This is not the country that I envisioned for my country. mean, in fact, he went back to his country. He could have stayed overseas and been safe. Everyone implored him to do this. No, I need to go back. Why? Because he loved his country. He didn't want to see his country oppressing people and, uh you know, know, imprisoning and killing Jewish people in the Holocaust. So he went back. And so I think that's a that's a way to be patriotic as well. And so I don't think there's a there's a difference between those two. know, I think it gets complicated, though. Right. And I do think. As Christians, we are our ultimate citizenship is in heaven, but that can inform. The boundaries of what we how we conduct ourselves as citizens of this earth. And it can in some ways give us a realism. It can constrain what we do in politics, where we can do a lot of good, but we're realistic about what we actually can do. uh And I think it's interesting at the end of the book of Revelation, it has this vision of the new heavens and new earth. And you have there every nation, tribe and tongue around the throne of God. But it says every nation. is there. So the nations in, in, um, the new Jerusalem. still retain their national identities in some way. You know, it's this mosaic that God is gathering from around the world into his final kingdom. People don't stop being what they are. know, God doesn't see our ethnic differences as an obstacle, but as a part of the world he's created. And so loving your nation is good. And this means I love the way God, where God put me and where he placed me. And I think that that can be healthy. I like that. I appreciate everything you said and I want to kind of maybe have you help me work through, I think, a problem that a lot of Christians have, uh both who are patriotic Christians but uh are kind of like looking at uh the two political parties, you know, become more extreme. So like earlier you talked about coalitions, that's kind of like how we run things in America, you know, so a Christian, you know, attaching their wagon to Republicans uh are going to be sort of painted with all the Republican stuff. mean, most of the friends I have are all Republicans and they're just like, yeah, we hate being called racist, you know, like we're not racist. And I'm like, yeah, you're not racist. So it's like Christians just kind of have that going if they attach themselves to the right. On the left, you've got, you know, this this other brand of Christianity that focuses more on social justice and all kinds of other stuff. And I'm I'm I'm a lefty, right? And I'm also a Christian. So, of course, like that, that that that appeals to me. But I know that that that's not necessarily like right, because as as an American, I'm also a patriot. I served our country. I enlisted in the army two months after 9-11. Went uh to Iraq, got the coins and medals and things in my back. I love this country, and I hate the fact that people are leaving the country just because they don't like the way things are. I'm like, good for you. You're rich enough to leave. uh But I'm sort of stuck kind of as a Christian because like, I just want to be a Christian. I just want to love Jesus. I want to treat people the way Jesus would treat them. uh But I don't really know like which political party kind of has my best interest in mind uh and especially the best interest, not just for my faith, but also for my love of my country. uh So I'd love for you just to maybe kind of help. help talk through like that dilemma that people might be facing. Cause I know it's one that I'm facing. Yeah, I think there's a couple things here. think, you know, obviously we never want any. Well, first of all, let me zoom out and say as a Christian, you know, our highest um allegiances to Christ, but then we're going to have lesser identities and lesser allegiances that will still be good, you know, right? Like. um I'm first and foremost a Christian, but I'm also a, um you know, Baptist. So that's the tradition I'm in. ah And I'm reformed. So that's kind of where my soteriology is and like stuff. And I have no problem being taking on those labels because it actually is what I believe. But those are not my highest identities, right? So I'm open handed toward people who disagree with me on some of these things. But but I am part of this, right? And I think it's that way with our politics that I'm first a Christian. um That's my first identity as a follower of Jesus. But then I do vote Republican. So I am a part of this. When it comes to my politics, that, in my view, is the vehicle that best accommodates my views and can act on them. Doesn't mean I endorse every single thing the Republican Party says or does. Nor do I endorse every single Republican in the party or Republic official. And in fact, I think, um, there's always going to be a little dissonance between our earthly institutions in the kingdom of God. And that's healthy because we're not home yet. um, so I think that tension you feel when you decide, well, I want to get active and this is the party that I need to, based on these issues, that tension you feel is healthy and it should guide you. to where when you're in those places, when I'm me as a father of Christ, as a Republican, I need to be able to say, there are some things in this institution I don't agree with and I'm not gonna endorse. I'm not gonna put this identity above my Christian identity. And I think the real test of that is, do you see through that lens constantly? Or are you able to look at your neighbors who disagree with you as real people? Even as you are saying, yeah, I'm gonna vote this way and I'm gonna advocate this way. because I believe these policies and I'm apologetic about it. But it's not my highest thing, right? And there are people who are sort of independent-ish and say, you know, I'm not sure where I land, you know, this election to the next election. I think, by the way, I think being independent can also be an identity that can sometimes supersede the kingdom of God, that I'm above it all and I don't get dirty with it. And I'm better than everybody. I'm not saying independence, I'll do that. Some really thoughtful independence. But you know I'm saying? Like, so I just think we have to reject binary thinking. We have to just think, OK, this is an imperfect vessel for my beliefs. This this first of all, this is an imperfect country. The political system is imperfect, is only one we've got. And the party that I'm part of is imperfect, is the only vessel I've got. Therefore, I'm going to be realistic about what I can do, but I can do some good, you know. Just real fast, a um couple years ago, I used to identify as a progressive Christian, and I've since stopped using that because I personally kind of reached a point where I just felt like it wasn't helping. or wasn't really useful. It was intentionally politicizing my Christian faith. uh But I'd love to kind of get your take on whether or not you think terms like conservative Christian or progressive Christians are useful terms uh in our dialogue. Yeah, I mean, it just depends. mean, I, yeah, sometimes it can be helpful. Sometimes it can not be helpful, you know. um And it depends the issue. There's a spectrum, true, right? Like it's not always just conservative or progressive. There's a spectrum when it comes to different beliefs, right? And, um, you know, think, especially when I talked to the average person on the street, that there are some issues that they're conservative and some issues that they're not. Right. I even think if you want to put it back into politics, one of the interesting things about the Trump coalition is a lot of the photos he brought into the party, you know, some people are, are very conservative like me and that's the best vehicle they've got, even though it's imperfect. He's brought a lot of people into the party though, who are kind of heterodox in some conservative issues, right? On trade, on other things that conservatives have historically been for. So, you know, it's just sort of a spectrum. So sometimes the labels aren't helpful, right? I mean, Trump has people in his administration that by any stretch would be considered progressive, you know, in a different time, you know? And so, but there's alignment on a few issues. And so, you know, they're there. So, you know, it's increasingly, you know, it depends, you know, it depends the context, but. Sometimes the labels aren't helpful, you know. Yeah, I agree with that actually. And they definitely always need to look at the nuance because any times we're categorizing anyone, we are flattening details about who they are and removing them in order to place them within a category, right? We're picking out few things, whether it's beliefs, whatever it is, the accident that's there, meaning like the part of them that we're looking to and trying to categorize. ignore other things and focus on certain ones and then we categorize people and by doing that we essentially kind of take out the parts that really make them who they are and their personality and we blur them with everyone else and we it's very easy to do that and it's very easy for us to do that to ourselves it seems to me at least um but I think my last question here is You know, what are you hoping that the book will accomplish as you're bringing it out there? Like, what kind of stories would you want to hear that are letting you know that it's accomplishing it? And you mentioned hope, and I'd love for you to bring out that sense of where your hope is right now. Like, what you feel hopeful for, I should say, for the future. Yeah, I think the first hope I would have is that people, um know, if you're someone who's really politically active, you read it and say, okay, um this is a healthy way of doing this. I want to continue to do it this way. Maybe you're someone who has been reticent about getting involved to renew your country and you think, or you've been made to feel like I have these deep feelings about my country. I have the things I want to do, but. um I've kind of been made to feel bad about it and now I don't feel bad and I want to, you know, do that. I hope really the effect is to have Christians really take ownership and say, want to help renew this country, you know, families, renew families, renew the church, renew our communities, renew the education system, all those things. And, you know, at the end, particularly I have four different areas. And particularly the last chapter, I talked about localism that there's a lot of big national issues we should engage on. I engage on those. They're important. They're not unimportant, but most of the good work is being done in communities by people who don't have a podcast and aren't running for office, but they're, you know, tutoring children through their local church or whatever. They're feeding the homeless. They're building, you know, creating nonprofits. They're helping their neighbors in the ways that they can. They're. They're building meaningful businesses and employing people and in that doing their part to renew the country. And I'm actually hopeful. I know we're not supposed to be hopeful about the country. We're supposed to be doing. There are some causes for concern, know, polarization and the way the Internet has sort of uh helped us silo and marginally get into our sort of like bubbles. But I'm actually hopeful when I'm most I'm the least hopeful. when I'm reading the extreme voices online. I'm most hopeful when I'm in communities. You know, I get to go preach and teach around the country and when I'm in churches and just seeing ordinary people, you know, m raising their families, caring for their neighbors, doing this kind of work. um And look, America has been through a lot of different difficult seasons. We really have. And if you read history, I read a lot of history. History gives me hope because I read about these different. um periods of American history. we got through some we got we've gotten through much harder difficult seasons than we're in. And it's interesting to if you want to talk about spiritual renewal. You know, I think about the 60s and 70s now was born in 78. So I miss this. But my parents, you know, were part of the sort of that era where there was a political assassinations and there was Watergate and there was Vietnam and there was, you know. 15 other things I can't even remember that were bad. And, but out of that came the Jesus movement and a kind of religious awakening, Christian awakening for a lot of folks and came renewal uh of the country. I think during some of our darkest moments, some of those seeds of renewal come through. I think of today, I'm very, very, very bullish on Gen Z. I love what I've seen from Gen Z. They want to go to church. mean, you look at the numbers, Gen Z is going to church more than the other generations. Who would have thought that with all the trend lines? Even my son, was really shook, he's 17, he was really shook by the Charlie Kirk assassination. I mean, just absolutely shook. For that generation, it was almost like the assassinations in the 60s and 70s, or like 9-11 for me. And yet what he wanted to do was not go... engage in civil war or go do whatever. said, no, I want, said, I want to live my life with purpose. want to double down on my faith in Christ. want to continue to speak truth that I believe. But I want to do the things that, that matter, you know, and, that really is encouraging to me. I think there's a rising generation that really wants to live with purpose. so I'm bullish on the country. We've lasted 250 years. It's, an incredible experiment in human government that, you know, when I think about the fragility of the early beginning. Yorktown could have gone either way. That fledgling government in the beginning, you forming the constitution could have gone another way. Most revolutions don't succeed. They just don't. I mean, and yet ours did. And so I'm hopeful about it. And maybe I'm too Pollyannish, but that's all I know how to do. So. Hey, hope is not bad brother. We need hope. And I don't think it's Pollyanna, Pollyanna shit all. I appreciate you speaking that because we need hope bad right now in this country. And hope brings a lot of present um purpose and joy and. incentives to do the right things and so hope we need more hope let's let's bring a lot more hope around here so how can is there a preferred vendor for picking up the book and then how can people follow you follow your work get connected to what you're doing Yeah, so you can get it anywhere books are sold. Amazon, Barnes & Noble, independent book stores are encouraged folks to go to. So anywhere books are sold, it's uh published by HarperCollins Broadside Books. go to their website as well. You can go to my website, danieldarling.com. We have a link to it there. But anywhere where fine books are sold, you can acquire it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the program, Daniel. It's been a real pleasure to speak with you and get your insights. Thank you so much for spending some time with us in our audience. Well, thank you for having me. A great discussion and I hope there's more conversations like this with people who across the divide who have disagreements and to say, okay, here's where I agree. Here's your disagree, but let's continue these conversations. Absolutely, absolutely. And to our viewers, guys, thanks for joining us and spending some time with us. Make sure that you're going out there and getting Daniel Darling's book. We're going to put links into the show notes so that you can get that and get connected with his work and what he's doing. And guys, until next time, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. Thanks and God bless.