When Government Quotes the Bible: Brian Kaylor on DHS, Faith, and Public Messaging

Note: We discuss social media posts in this episode that are shown on the screen. To see the actual images watch the YouTube episode: https://youtu.be/316SCgIX9qQ 

The Department of Homeland Security has been posting Bible verses alongside immigration enforcement content. In this episode, Will and Pastor Josh are joined by President and editor-in-chief of Word&Way Brian Kaylor to examine what those posts mean and why they matter. The conversation focuses on how specific passages of Scripture are being applied, whether they are used in context, and what happens when government messaging adopts religious language to frame public policy.

Kaylor walks through several examples and explains how these verses function rhetorically. The group discusses interpretation, audience impact, and the broader implications for churches, public discourse, and civic life. The episode also explores how political messaging can shape the way people understand both faith and government authority, especially for newer believers or those encountering Scripture through social media rather than through a church context.

The Bible According to Christian Nationalists: Exploiting Scripture for Political Power
https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9780827203501

Social Media Images Used:

• Matthew 5:9 — “Blessed are the peacemakers”: https://www.facebook.com/share/r/1D8o2ar3ay/
• Isaiah 6:8 — “Send me”: https://www.facebook.com/share/r/17v3tazVxv/
• Proverbs 28:1 — “The wicked flee…”: https://x.com/DHSgov/status/1949913619644493930?s=20
• Psalm 28:7 — “The Lord is my strength and my shield”: https://www.instagram.com/p/DPbyLZoEUJ4/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
• Isaiah 41:10 — “Fear thou not…”: https://www.instagram.com/reel/DRXiDWuicRE/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
• Proverbs 23:24 — “Father of a righteous child…”: https://x.com/DHSgov/status/2000609130835292248?s=20

Guest Bio

Brian Kaylor is a Baptist minister, journalist, and commentator covering the intersection of faith, politics, and public life. He serves as President and editor-in-chief of Word&Way and writes extensively about church-state issues, Christian nationalism, and the public use of Scripture

Transcript

0:17

Hey, welcome back, Faithful Politics listeners and watchers. I'm your political host, Will Wright, and I am joined by your ever faithful past or ever faithful, faithful host. I'll get that right. Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh? And we have returning back to us one of our favorite guests uh and one of our favorite executive presidents, editors and chiefs of Warden Way, Brian Kaler, who is a Baptist minister, journalist, and commentator who writes and speaks about the intersection of faith politics and public life. He's the author of The Bible According to Christian Nationalists Exploiting Scripture for Political Power, which is a book that examines how biblical language and imagery are used to advance political agendas. And we have brought him on the show today to talk to us about how biblical language and imagery are used to advance political agendas. So thank you for coming back to the show. It's good to see you, Brian. Yeah, it's great to see you all. It's always good to be with you. Yeah, I mentioned this before, but I need to push more merch. So like I'm wearing my special SignoChat um t-shirt, which you can buy on our website, by the way. uh You know, the Jeffrey Goldblum Goldblum Goldberg Goldberg, right? Yeah, Jeffrey Goldberg. Yeah. Yeah. The the Atlantic writer who got caught up in that SignoChat where they were going to go bomb some ships in the ocean. yes, yes, but but what do those symbols mean for the people? there what was that a specific thing within? think this was the emojis that either Vance or Hegseth put in the chat. I wish I'd put that on there, but... So this is what they thought about it. shouldn't be asking you all these questions. a different journalist next time, know, I'm available. I know, I know. Us too, even though we're not, I guess, technically journalists, but you know, whatever. Yeah. So, Ryan, since the last time we've had you on, you've been doing all kinds of really cool stuff. uh Great success with Word and Way. You had uh an article actually out today, the time of recording this, about Pete Hegseth and the um National Prayer Breakfast. um And I encourage everybody to go to Word and Way to read it. It's really making its waves. But you've also been doing some other stuff that I wanted to talk to you about because I follow your post, I read Word and Way, and I saw that you were starting to post a bunch of social media uh of Department of Homeland Security with Bible verses. And I just thought it was really kind of interesting. So why don't we start there and just talk to us, why is that unusual? um There's Bible verses from the Department of Homeland Security. Yeah, this has been, you know, a wild genre of administration stuff that I didn't have on my bingo card at the start. mean, you you mentioned my newest book, which came out in October, but which meant I had, you know, finished writing it several months before that ended off. And I tell you what, if I was working on the Bible according to Christian Nationals today, I would probably have like a whole chapter on the Department of Homeland Security and their co-opting of scripture. So I'm glad to least like be able to kind of talk out like a verbal audio chapter here with you all because Hmm. pretty egregious what's happening here, and I think it's really important for those of us who are Christians, and I would say especially for pastors, to be paying attention to this, because what's happening then on social media is the Department of Homeland Security is using Bible verses, and we're gonna walk through some of them and kind of see what they're doing with them, but they're doing what would be considered like a biblical application. in some ways that are really egregious in taking texts out of context or even completely changing the meaning. And yet this is teaching people on social media, oh, this is what the Bible is teaching. This is what the Bible is justifying. And I think pastors have got to be aware of this so that they can do some real biblical exegesis and hermeneutics and teach people, hey, let's read these scriptures in context. Yeah, I mean, that is absolutely well said. And, you know, I think the point that's really important to bring back to what you just said was that they're teaching a specific application of this. Right. So someone would say, well, how do you know? I mean, they're just putting it on there out of artistic or I don't know, whatever it is you might have. And my question would be one that that that's a really poor use. I'm the scripture for an artistic reason because it's just and you just need to know how out of context that is. Additionally, like it doesn't it just doesn't make sense that it will be used in that way by the Homeland Security Department of Homeland Security. They're there to try to, you know, protect the borders or, you know, security within our nation not to put out art for people to be interested in. So. And again, that's probably a sloppy argument. No one would really say that, but I'm just saying like, I just, it's so crazy. And it's the application part of it. That is such a crucial thing that people are looking at this and they're being taught by this. Then people are being discipled by online TikTok videos. mean, essentially, right. I've actually know several people that have been very discipled by TikTok videos. m and to varying results and um and I don't recommend that and I guess in this whole thing like I want I want us to really bring out because we're gonna have some really skeptical people like I've had people coming at me and I get it I'm posting more being more controversial and that's fine that comes with the territory but it's like I'm not just trying to do this because I don't know I just want to make people mad or upset people It's like there's a serious, legitimate misuse of scripture happening right now that every Christian, conservative, liberal, whatever, should be uh concerned about. And that's what I want to dig in to with you. What is so bad about this application? And then we're going to get to things that we're going to throw at the OK. and people will see that and I think it's really important to do so. big picture, like we can think about like some trends that have been happening with- And, you know, if the Department of Homeland Security wanted to use some Bible verses that were really closely aligned with their mission, know, verses about borders or, you even building walls, like- There are verses there. I mean, I could give them some. wouldn't. I wouldn't help them with this mission. But like, I could come up with some verses that would at least seem tangentially. And then we would have a very nuanced debate about whether or not that's the correct application, and whether it really applies to the way homenet security, right? But as people are gonna see, those aren't the verses that they're using. They're taking verses that have nothing to do with their mission. I mean... on the mountain. Yeah, right. Well, so that's that's actually the wild thing is is so you know, I We have what I think what six different verses that have been used since july I've been trying to track and keep track of all of them and the first five they did five different, uh Post and videos in 2025 were all from the old testament Which was really fascinating kind of an assessment about christian nationalism is that there's often so little christ in it But they did now in January of this year post a video taking taking a verse from the Sermon on the Mount And so that is I think even more egregious than the others are gonna say, but you know, but they're essentially like Going through I mean sometimes the verses seem so badly chosen. I'm just like I don't even know why you would choose this I don't know. They just like flip open the Bible and do the like, you know Put your finger and put put it in the video. It almost feels that out of context But it's just like they're like kidnapping Bible verses here to justify kidnapping people. So, you know, guess that it all goes together. Yeah, well, if you are ready, we'll go ahead and look at some of these and um to our audience. Just be patient because this is the first time we're doing a little bit of a show and tell. So, uh yeah, we're going to try this out. here we go. Yeah. So here is the first one. So why don't you just talk to us a little bit about it, you know, put it in context and yeah, and I'd love to hear your thoughts too, Josh, about it. Yeah, so we've got this so the first couple we're look at you were not looking at the chronologically We're looking at first couple were just kind of social media posts and then the rest of them are actual videos real fast too, just for our audio listeners. uh Describe what you're looking at on the screen. about, yeah, about to do that. But I just wanted to point out that this was not chronological, but this is one of one that we don't have a video or audio for. It's just a social media post. And so what happened here, this is from Portland. There was a, it's an image, a photo from Portland. There was mostly anti-ice protests, but then a couple of people showed up with some pro-ice signs. One of them said, God bless ice. And so the picture is, you can see the back of a federal agent. You can see someone holding the sign that says God bless ice and then as the caption they wrote The Lord is my strength and my shield my heart trust in him and he helps me Psalm 28 7 Which again like Josh your your point that we were just talking about a moment ago Like there's so many things that they could have chosen if they were gonna put a bible verse in with this I mean they could have just posted the picture and just said, know, look god bless ice And you know people are saying so right but they chose a verse and I I don't really know why they chose this one I mean, I guess there's the words about like strength and shield in there Yeah, like that's what they seem to be trying to pull on Yeah, I mean, I don't really know either, but I do know that Psalm 28, seven is not a general blessing over force on our side that we essentially can do, like, whatever we want. Right. So it's like it's looking at this kind of verse and wondering like, OK, yeah, I don't again, I haven't done like a full study of Psalm 28. I can certainly we could certainly do that. pull up the Hebrew, go into all of that kind of stuff. But it's like number one, okay, oh let me just say this. All right, let me get real. Number one, we look at this and we're gonna say, well, strength and shield. Number one, those are very particular things and what do they mean in context, right? And because they're not what you think they mean, probably, in terms of what the ancient world would have thought about those two symbols. So the first question we're asking is, what is this even saying? The second question is, how does this actually understand what's even happening here? And is this an application? the idea that, and that's part of the ambiguity here, right? Is the idea that God is going to, like God is helping ISIS, and this is the people that are there, and that's the application? That God is helping ICE when they are. because the Lord isn't their strength and shield. have like pepper spray and like the most advanced like, you know, don't they have like some of most advanced close combat weaponry like ever to exist? So I'm pretty sure that the Lord is not their strength and shield. I'm pretty sure that the guns and bullets and pepper spray and gas mask. Yeah, and the discombobulator, all of that. I'm sure that all of that is their strength and shield. So the whole thing just seems silly to me and I just wish they wouldn't do it like you said. Just post that. Hey, there are people that support us. Just post that. Keep the scripture out of it. That's my personal. Yeah, that's right. And I mean, so and I won't go into Hebrew because I didn't I don't know Hebrew, but I took some Greek but not some Hebrews. So I'm over in the Old Testament here, and I'm just going to go with, the way David wrote it in the King James. No, just kidding. uh They haven't generally been using the King James here. So know, which is surprising, isn't it? You feel like they would be using the King James or have they or have... it's and it's actually it's really sporadic. uh I actually have like written down what translation they're using and they're all over the place. And so it seems really random. I'm actually not really sure why. I don't know if it's different people are creating the posts and videos, but they're not using a consistent translation when they're putting all these together. So sometimes it's been the King James, New King James, and there's been some other translations that the NIV has been tossed in there. And so it's just been really random in that regard. But if we go and look at the Salman context, I think that's really important. mean, obviously, Josh, what you were just noting is really significant in thinking about you when someone is saying the Lord is my strength and my shield, they're getting the point of like, have no other defense. But especially when you, yeah, and especially when you read this Psalm in context, uh it's an assault attributed to David, and it is a, The whole Psalm is a cry for help, right? It's one of the needy David Psalms, right? To you Lord, I call you are my rock Do not turn a deaf ear to me for if you remain silent I will be like those who go down to the pit Hear my cry for mercy as I call for you for your help as I lift up my hands towards your most holy place I mean, this is a person who has no other strength no other shield is in a Desperate mode. I mean if anything sounds to me much more like someone who is hiding from ice than someone who is Who is ice right? I mean this is someone who's in a really desperate place No, I was just about to say like, that sounds like the cry of someone who's trying to hide and they have people with the most advanced weaponry coming after them and they just want, God, please be my strength and my shield, my heart trusts in you. And like, this is clearly an individual moving into, right, this personal confession of trust and thanksgiving, not a something about, anything about an institution. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, I was going to ask Brian, though, but kind of in an even broader context, you know, like what's sort of the Christian nationalist case for kind of the way that this stuff is written? Meaning, like, there's an audience, right? Like, they posted this, somebody out there is going to read this and is going to interpret it, you know, as either instruction or, you know, hermeneutics or whatever, you know? So, like, who's the audience, I guess, for a scripture like this? I mean honestly probably there's more people that like this than dislike it like we're in the the minority or I prefer to say the remnant here, right? Maybe that's you know, sounds a little better But like if you go to social if you go to the social media They're posting these videos in these posts on X and Facebook and Instagram and if you go like people are More people are excited about this stuff. Like they're cheerleading. They're like, yes. See, this proves that ICE and the Trump administration and all of the efforts that are being taken right now, that it's godly. This is God's will. God really does bless ICE. And so, it, that's the audience and it's resonating. It's working. Are you ready for the next one? OK. All right. So here is the next one. Go ahead set it up for us. sure. we've got this is our other one that's just a post. And actually what what they did, Homeland Security did is they they took a screenshot of an article from USA Today that's about a father and he has three different kids and they all four of them are working for ICE. Right. So it's a it's a family of ICE agents. And then above that story, kind of quoting, quoting, you know, to go along or add an interpretation to that news article. They put a Bible verses the whole caption the father of a righteous child has great joy a man who fathers a wise son rejoices in him Proverbs 23 24 so In this this one I think is a very clear obvious inference, right? So here you got you how you know kids are following their father into the exact same line of work and they found a proverb about You know, a father of righteous children and a father who has a wise son, right? So the argument here is, look, we can tell that these kids are righteous and wise because they have followed their father into also being ICE agents. So this one, I mean, like I get this one, this one has a really clear argument. I disagree with the argument, but it has a clear argument being made. Yeah, and what I would say about this, looking at this, right, is that the Proverbs often have instruction, right, from a father to a child. This is part of the ancient Near East, and especially even thinking about a familiar connections. But even beyond that, there is often a teacher-student connection that would come in this kind of familiar language. And so I would look at this and think, OK, This is about some kind of intergenerational formation. We honor parents, we receive instruction, we become the kind of person whose life brings joy because why? Because it reflects wisdom and righteousness, not because you go with the same line of work. Now, being proud of your son for doing the same thing, I mean, that's super legitimate, right? I'm not trying to say, you know, like, that's super cool. I hope that... They can share stories and that I think that's totally legitimate. What I'm saying is that this use of scripture to say, oh, someone falls in my line of work, that's not what the Bible is talking about. It's talking about the day followed in righteousness, wisdom and understanding. Now it could be saying a values thing again. And one of the things about Proverbs is actually they are kind of a little bit easier to apply because of the way that they are. They're general truths about life. And so that doesn't mean we can take them from their context and assume we understand because again, they're written in Hebrew, a dead language that needs to be understood and interpreted first. So we're already reading an interpretation. Number one, whenever we read an English translation, we are reading an interpretation. So that always needs to be understood. But Proverbs in general are general senses of, this is what the this is what the world is like in general. And God puts this says, yes. You can take this to the bank. It's given by God. This is the kind of thing, but it's not a promise. And anyway, go ahead, Brian. Yeah, that's a really great point to always remember about any proverb is anything from the Book of Proverbs is they are generally true wisdom sayings and so we often misuse Proverbs by taking them as a direct promise or a guarantee and so that's a just a general abuse of the Book of Proverbs that we see all the time. I would say with this one though, I think there's two particularly important things also then beyond that to highlight. You know, one is just because of children are following their father or their mother in the same line of work. doesn't mean they're all righteous. That also happens with unrighteous people. I that's how mafia families stay in business. I mean, the mafia stays in business because the kids follow the father into the same line of work. So just because we have the same work doesn't tell us one way or another. The fact that these three kids are also ICE agents along with their ICE dad, that... in and of itself alone does not tell us whether ICE is righteous or unrighteous. we can't use this verse to suggest either direction just based on that one fact. But let's also this, let's put this in the context. Again, I think this is really important. What I want us to do with all of these is to broaden out the context a little bit. So this particular proverb is in a section of proverbs that's called 30 sayings of the wise. um I don't know. It seems to be miscounting. There's actually like multiple words, verses, and proverbs within each single saying. But anyways, there's 30 sayings of the wise. There's 30 groupings of kind of wisdom. And I mean, just as an example, here are a couple of the other sayings of the wise. So we have to like, if we read this whole section, not even the whole book of proverbs, just the section of 30 sayings of the wise, here's just some others that I just think are worth thinking about in light of everything that's happening in our country right now. With and because of ice so do not exploit the poor Because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court for the Lord will take up their case and will exact life for life Another one do not move an ancient boundary stone or encroach on the fields of the fatherless for their defender is strong He will take up the case against you Do not envy the Do not envy the wicked do not desire their company For their hearts plot violence and their lips talk about making trouble. Here's another. If you faltered a time of trouble, how small is your strength? Rescue those being led away to death. Hold back those staggering towards slaughter. If you say, but we knew nothing about this, does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who guards your life know it? Will he not repay everyone according to what they have done? So, I mean, if I was leading ICE, I would be a little nervous reading through these 30 sayings of the wise. would I would add to that, right? So ISIS and there are many places but that we could look to. But you're not going to get this one. You guys ready for this one? Let me put it in a very interesting NIV. Do not this is Exodus 2221. They haven't used this, I don't think, by the way. Do not mistreat or oppress a foreigner for your foreigners in Egypt. They I don't think that they they skipped that one. They forgot it, dude. It just made it didn't make the list. You know, I'm reading this kind in the context of that article you wrote about Pete Hegseth about, you know, feeling like if you die for Christian nation, you will, you know, go to heaven or whatever. uh Hexeth at the National Prayer Breakfast actually said that the soldier who's dying for country finds eternal life. I mean, this is like the Crusader theology, which I guess fits, he has his Crusader tattoos, but like this is the ancient heresy of Christian nationalism. Yeah, I mean, but like, if you take that and then you also take in like this, the fact that if you are a father and you think that it is a divine sort of mission for your son to follow in your footsteps, like it's almost like you're kind of building this kind of Christian coalition, you know, both in the military and for DHS. would that... Would that be an inaccurate assessment or am I just sort of like using a bunch of hyperbole? I think that's what all of these posts and videos are doing which is why it's important for us to unpack them is that it is an attempt to baptize ICE and these highly militarized federal agents to baptize them as the Lord's Army, right? And also to be clear, not only do they have a lot of the weapons that the US military has, they also have weapons the US military doesn't. So the US military is not allowed to use tear gas. It's a chemical weapon banned in international warfare. But the militarized agents in Department of Homeland Security are using tear gas all the time on American citizens and American streets. And so, mean, this is actually even more extreme and more militarized than the U.S. military. Yeah, and just a self-plug, I did write a substack about safety around tear gas, whether it's CS, CN, or OC. Don't get me started. But are you ready to look at the next one? No, this one will... This is the one before the one with the videos. Yeah. All right, here we go. that's right. We're gonna set them up first and then watch the video. So yes, that's right. But we're so we're now we're got another proverbs. We got Proverbs 28 one So we've got a longer message here from Homeland Security in their post to every criminal illegal alien in America colon darkness is no longer your ally you represent an existential threat to the citizens of the United States and US Border Patrol Special Operations Group will stop at nothing to hunt you down And then we're gonna have a video here that's posted. The verse isn't actually in the caption. And the video is basically just DHS agents running around with guns and kicking down doors and shooting things. And then slowly a verse comes onto the screen. uh And I guess it's also important to say this is the one that the the so this one is in the King James By the way, but this one this one is the audio So there's so many things happening here. We have we're have all these images So for those watching YouTube, you can see all the images that are happening Yeah, oh you don't have the video for this one, okay, so if you go watch the video on this one, uh You you also get the voice of Batman talking Um, so you have like the, the, the, the, the images and the, of, of DHS breaking down doors and hunting down people, the Bible verse from Proverbs come up and then we have a voice of Batman talking about, am the darkness. And so it's just like, wait, we do have the video for this one. I'm sorry. I'm ready if you want to play it. Alright, let's see. m So yeah, I mean, it's wild. I mean, like I said, it's just weird mixing of all these different things that's happening there with Batman and the videos in the Bible verse. And this Bible verse, this was, think this is very second video that they did. This one really is, to me again, it's just a really odd choice. Because I think the inference they're trying to make is that the quote, illegal aliens are wicked, right? And then we're the righteous who are bold as a lion. But like, The verse says the wicked flee when no man pursueth. So, anyone who's fleeing from DHS is actually being pursued, so they're not the wicked that's described in this verse, right? And then also, advanced technology um by the way, I'm sorry This said the wicked flee when no one pursues them. But they are being pursued. So by inference, they're not actually wicked. Right? If we read the Bible verse here, literally. And then also it says the righteous are bold as a lion. Right? And I don't know. I mean, running around with a face mask and unmarked cars and refusing to identify yourself doesn't really like scream bold as a lion to me. Doesn't scream courageous. No, it doesn't, it doesn't do any of that to me, so. it's like, I think there are obviously like a lot of issues with this. Right. And like you said, wicked flee though no one pursues. Right. It doesn't even make sense what they're saying. Like it doesn't really fit. Right. So the wicked are fleeing. Right. But what is it talking about? It's talking about paranoia and guilt. Right. As a result of what? Result of sin. Right. And of course you can get into the ideas of like, you know, as our laws, are they righteous? Are they good? There's a lot of nuance. You can go into this, right? This is talking about the law. If there's a wicked man, it's going to be in the Old Testament. It's going to be compared to the righteousness of Yahweh displayed within the yaw and the within the law. Yaw. What the heck am I saying? Within the law and the mosaic covenant. Right. So you're going to see that. But then saying some one to one parallel between Mosaic covenant and R. It's just, it creates so many category errors. It's horrible exegesis. It's anachronistic in more ways than you can count. And it's not at all what the text is supposed to be done. It's completely disregarding the biblical theology of what Jesus has done as he came and fulfilled the law and the prophets. And so with this, like, it doesn't even make sense. just on, in, Plainly looking at the proverb it doesn't make sense like you point out the actual grammar of the proverb Just talking about the wicked flea the righteous are bold. What's that steadiness that comes from integrity? That's stainless from come from you know, Where um you're at it again, this is talking like the Proverbs are some they're supposed to be some kind of like instruction for the uh government like an encouragement for the government when this is all about the formation of the character of God's people And so it's about forming the citizen, not the government. Anyway, that's at least how I like interpret it. I definitely could be off on some. Yeah, no, I think that's I mean good that's a category or with the Proverbs like I said Then there's this weird thing of like if you actually take the verse Literally and seriously and try to apply it like it doesn't doesn't actually match and it's just like so one of those things I would I would like one joke at this point that like they're so bad at biblical interpretation They shouldn't quit their day job But I actually want whoever's coming up with these social media posts to quit their day job, too. So, you know You know, I am curious that this kind of ties into my my last question on the other post is that um the term, you know, righteous, that's um. That's like a character forming sort of like, like word. And in the previous pose, you know, the righteous Russell, if you have like a child that follows in your, in your footsteps, like, there, is there any sort of like pattern that, that, that you can see or that you've even been, been, tracking with regards to sort of like how they're choosing the word or choose their Bible verses that can be used to shape a person. Yeah, I mean, that's a great, great point. And that's why I think it's really, really good to start looking at them all together, right? In context. And I think we start seeing these, these ideas of righteous or godly, right? The sense of either your, you know, your blessed, we'll get to that one in a bit, or your prophetic, we'll get to that one in a bit. Like there's definitely this sense of they're picking verses that are really baptizing ICE and the other feather agencies as not just doing, not just good. Right? But actually doing God's work, this level of righteousness, yes, God's will. that's just, I mean, that's really gross Christian nationalism, but that's what they're doing here. And I would add to that, dude, like to be careful about that for every Christian and to understand, like I think about the Ten Commandments, right? We think about what did he say? Don't use my name in vain. You're always taught, oh, don't say G, you know, GD or whatever, right? And that has nothing to do with that. I don't think you should say that. Like if you want to sound like a, you know, an intelligent person or whatever, don't cuss a lot. But either way. uh That's fine if you do, that's your choice is what I mean. But this has to do with actually attributing something to Yahweh's name which is in His authority. And He, uh this is, it could be the use of magic, it could be the claiming that God had said something when He didn't, it could be uh this kind of example of baptizing or basically legitimizing a agency or a state by saying, is what Yahweh's name, God's name is on this. This is what he wants, which is exactly what they're doing, which you got to take a real step back. that's making a lot of assumptions here that what they're doing is God's work. That's putting the cart before the horse before they've ever proven that this, on what basis is this God's work that you're doing. And so again, That's not why they're putting it out there. They're putting it out there for people to that don't really know what the Bible says that already are attracted to this that are going to think it's super cool or want to sign up for ice. It's a propaganda machine trying to get people and then try it and it's disturbing that they're using scripture, which means that they're targeting people at least who on the surface will say that they're Christian. Normally you're not going to see people wanting the Bible in America unless they're Christians. And so I'm not obviously the Orthodox Jewish people is that but they're a very small percentage of the population In the United States. So what I'm saying is that it's just so bad in so many ways I can stop there I could keep going but I won't so I can keep Yeah. this is what it means to take God's name in vain and then we know that like DHS is spending millions upon millions of dollars on propaganda and PR and creating memes and videos and most of them don't have the Bible but we know that they're spending a lot on trying to convince people to join ICE that what ICE is doing is right and the fact that they've also decided one of the demographics they want to reach are Christians or at least people who are professing to be Christian but then they're reaching the people in our pews by throwing out a Bible verse here and there out of context. Like that is really alarming. They are targeting the people in our pews and this is why pastors have to be speaking out and teaching people how to read the Bible in context and how to read it and apply it in much more faithful ways than what we're seeing in these videos. I like, can I just interject with this? Well, like with that too, I think it's important. You can just focus on guys, this is very clearly bad exegesis. This is bad interpretation and we can show you why this is bad interpretation. It's not just that we're making this up. It's not, this hurts my feelings and I don't like it. No, this is objectively bad methodology of interpretation. You can't find it. It's not good. So you got to understand that. And then my point is to separate that bad exegesis from what is ice doing? Is it good or not? Because I think once you get those things mixed up, then you're you're you're not actually addressing the issue. Let's deal with bad interpretation. OK, now let's deal with what's ice doing and what does what are scriptural principles that speak to this? And I think that pastors can either jump to condemning, condemning, condemning. But one of the problems is, and I understand that, especially when you see some of the things we've been seeing, and it's horrific, some of the images, right? And it's like, my, are we in America right now? Like, this is horrible. So I understand that. But at the same time, there are a lot of people that do not agree or that actually they support ICE. They're way more than you think. And they are not thinking in the same ways. And so the first thing is we have to get, we even on the same, are we even in the same moral universe right now? And does that make sense what I'm saying? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. because it honestly it doesn't matter if you so for when we're looking at this video right here We're proverbs 28 one. Uh, it doesn't matter if you're if you're pro ice anti ice neutral about ice this verse Does not apply Right. This verse was poorly chosen. It does not describe someone who's wicked and not fleeing It does not subscribe someone who's bold as a lion The verse is bad exegesis, it's a misuse of scripture and it's completely out of context. And even if you support ICE, you should be able to condemn this Bible verse as being misused in this situation. Yeah, that's well said. Here is the next one. So why don't you go ahead and set this one up for us, And this one does have a video. Yeah, so this one also has a video this one that the caption is just uh the Bible verse And then we're gonna of course get a video the video will says for God and country. So there we go There's our Christian nationals and red flags there right there We start seeing that kind of that kind of language and our verse is fear thou not Okay, so I guess we're in the King James again on this one fear thou not for I am with thee Be not dismayed dismayed for I am thy God. I will strengthen thee. Yay. I will help thee Yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness, Isaiah 41 10. Don't use the KJV, guys. Okay, anyway, sorry. The song is a banger. Yeah, I forgot to the music on that one, but I think most people probably recognized it. eh Yeah, so what was happening in that video? Yeah, so again, we're getting this showing, you know, again, the more militarized side of Border Patrol um with the weapons and, know, all the special craft they have to hunt down immigrants. And then we've got the the Kanye. I don't remember what he whatever he was at the point when he released this song. uh Which again, there's just weird like we have like three layers on all of these in the least So we've got the we've got the images We got the audio and we got the Bible verse like tossed on and they don't always seem to like go together in any any sort of way and I think you know in this one it's again context is so important to stop and think ah Like what are they trying to say with there and and and you know? The verse itself. It does seem like weird Like why I mean, why am I not fearing? Why am I not dismayed? God's gonna uphold me with the right hand of my righteousness. I I thinks the verses about them or border patrol thinks this verse is about them But like or does it describe the person that's being hunted down who might actually be in fear, right? I I it's it's really ambiguous why they think this verse is for them and not for the other side if you will in in the video But even if we draw back from that confusion or ambiguity Isaiah 41 is written to people who are in exile in Babylon To reassure them that God hasn't forgotten them and is still there with them Right. So it's not written. Yeah, I mean it's not written to the Imperial Force Babylon it's not written to the leaders of the Imperial Force It's written to those that are in exile and are being pursued, hunted, mistreated by the global empire. It literally is written to immigrants in exile in an empire. The Babylonian Empire. Isaiah 41 so wild compared to the examples we've looked at in, you know, Proberts and... Yeah. they they did not do and here and this should be disturbing guys They didn't even do a basic fact check They didn't even do a like it the most basic thing Google it That's right. There's a Wikipedia page for like every chapter in the Bible So you could go read about Isaiah 41 like you don't even have to like go to seminary here That's what we're saying, Brian, right? And well, there is no excuse. It's like what I said about that crazy thing that Trump posted and Will has posted about it. I talked about it with Michelle and, know, whatever. It's at the end. It's a meme. None of those things excuse it. You're the president of United States. You don't amplify something like that, right? And all it takes is the slightest bit of effort to look and say, hey Google, hey Siri even, hey Alexa even, hey, let me go to chat, I mean, how many, mean, seriously, and it will do it. It will explain it to you. Oh, that would be amazing, dude. But what's my point, right? Literally, it's an oracle of comfort to people who are in exile, afraid, no power. and they're waiting on God. And it's like, it's just so sad. Again. We're dealing with bad interpretation here, right? I'm speaking for myself and I think I would speak for both of us here from what I know of us. We're fine for you to bring your arguments about why you support whatever it is ICE is doing. And then we can take it argument by argument, premise by premise, see what's going on, see what's actually real. Are we actually even dealing with the same things? This is such bad interpretation and the implications of this should be very, very, very disturbing to us if we care about the Bible at all. Anyway, I'll stop. let's jump to the next one just so we can stay on time here. Okay, this one will have a video too, but this is kind of the setup. Yeah, so this was the very first one that they did using a Bible verse as a video. And they used Isaiah 6, 8, and again, just kind of, this one just kind of starts. And it starts and we're getting the scenes of, they're in helicopters and they've got guns and they're running around. Again, just all the militarized DHS images while at the same time, this verse slowly comes on. m And then the audio, and I know you had to work a little bit hard to get this, but the audio, cause some copyright issues and I'm sure actually the audio to all of these might get them in trouble and so it's actually been this video is completely removed by X and is muted on meta platforms, Facebook and Instagram. But we're doing this for news purposes so it's fair trade. I'm just saying that for all the copyright people out there. um But it's from the movie, I'm blanking on the name of the movie. um All right. You can look it up and then once the video is over. Yeah. So the text that we're hearing spoken is from the movie Fury, but then they also mix in a song. So this one has like four layers. We've got the Bible verse put on in text. We've got the images in the background. And then we have uh a movie line and a song, and that's from Black Rebel Motorcycle Club. And I think they're the ones that actually filed the complaint about this, was the use of their music. ah And so they were upset. Uh, they, they put up a statement, saying that they were violating copyright law and other laws, not to mention the separation of church and state per the U S constitution. And then added, and then, and, you know, go F yourself. That was their, their official statement to DHS about this video. Um, and so I, I, I censored them, but you know, but you know, the, uh Yeah, there's a lot mixing in here and also you get the little shot of Kristi Noem She shows in in most these videos somewhere. They kind of always work her in that's part of the PR of DHS She shows up on screen then I heard the voice Right. So it's like almost she's like, don't know She's the one calling them and then the agents are saying here I am send me right? So again, this is the call of the prophet Isaiah Where God is is calling Isaiah and Isaiah responds to go and be a prophet And instead they're using that to suggest that that's what DHS agents, federal agents are doing. They're responding to this prophetic call of God. And whether you support ICE or not, that is such a bastardizing of the text that it is inappropriate. Like it does not apply here. This is about the call of a prophet to go and deliver the words and messages of God to God's people. Yeah, I absolutely agree. And it's like you've already seen within Isaiah, at least from what I remember, right? God is like, He's indicting them already. He's indicting them for injustice. Interesting. He's indicting them for injustice, uh pretty sure, towards the poor, the foreigner. He's indicting them for hollow worship. Oh, snap. where they basically are saying a bunch of things that are right, but not doing anything that represents righteousness within their life. So what is that? It means the worship is hollow before God. And then it's this commissioning in the face of this that they had just lost a king. are in a kind of national crisis. So maybe if they say, hey, we're in a national crisis, we're being invaded, I don't know. But again, it's like you said, it's an individual prophet's call to a people And again, here's what's interesting. I bet they haven't thought about this. Within that very prophecy, essentially God is saying, I'm gonna send you to a people that aren't gonna listen. And it's gonna drive them essentially to exile. And why do they get driven to exile? This is really important, right? So God basically says through the prophet Isaiah that the ancient, you know, Hebrew hope, Department of Homeland Security, is going to fail and the nation will fall. And one of the main reasons they will fall is because they're mistreating the strangers in their land. The most vulnerable, they're mistreating them. Very long. of Homeland Security didn't actually read it yet. my god, I know right but don't kidnap a verse from Isaiah if you're not willing to sit down and read all 66 chapters. and go. brother, I don't even think they read the first six to get there. I mean, it's so bad that it's like, I'd be surprised if they even read more than just a few verses. All right, last one. So here is... Yeah, last is here, not last. Here you go. so this one's from January. This is the most recent one. And I said they finally moved into the New Testament. The entire caption is just, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God, Matthew 5, 9. The video is gonna start with a helicopter and saying blessed are the peacemakers. We're gonna see the first part of the video, see the, and I know you're gonna play it here in a moment. We're gonna see Coast Guard members that are mostly through like night vision. That are capturing a ship and then it's gonna say the second part of the verse for they shall be called sons of God and we're gonna shift to border patrol and other federal agents including blasting down doors and hauling people off in in Handcuffs and so forth. and also the song which we should set up the song here ah It's an anti-war song Which I love that was that this this particular cover is for one of the Hunger Games movies soundtrack Um, you know about that Evil capital that has peacekeepers that go around and persecute all of the people in the district So anyways, but I love the the music is fantastic I could sit here and just listen to this video all the time, but I really hate watching it haha I'm gonna start with the song. I know we're running along here, but like, it's like they heard that and they're like, yeah, we wanna rule the world. And it's a critique of people trying to rule the world through violence and war. I don't even know, yeah, go ahead, Brian, you... as bad as song and movie interpretation as they are as biblical interpretation. So I mean, you know, they just can't figure anything out here. It's great. So, So Matthew 5, 9 is a beatitude, right? uh In the Sermon on the Mount, and what's it describing? Kingdom, community, right? People who actively make peace through reconciliation and non-retaliation and love of enemy. Yeah. can you also maybe just set the context? mean, I know most of our conversation we've been using a lot of Christianese, but like, what is the Beatitudes? Because I figure that's a pretty important thing for people to know. Basically, what are the Beatitudes? They're they're not generic inspirational quotes. They're things that Jesus was essentially setting out as a pronouncement of what it means to be blessed within the kingdom of God and was essentially overturning many of the cultures views of what it meant to be blessed. And so it was almost like an upside down kind of kingdom. And then bringing this in like peacemakers. So it's within Jesus' preach, it's his first major sermon within the Gospel of Matthew. And it's called the Sermon on the Mount. There's another part called the Sermon on the Plain in the Gospel of Luke. But this in particular, these Beatitudes are very famous, they're formed in Matthew. And this one in particular has nothing to do with going in with weapons and advanced military things. It's just, it's honestly, it's so egregious that it makes my heart, like it actually hurts my heart. Like it actually hurts my Yeah, go ahead, Brian. it's like I've been saying, you before this one came out was like, you know, I found it fascinating that they were only picking from the Old Testament, right? Christian nationalism having so little Christ. And then they did this one and I was like, I wish they had stuck with the Old Testament because this one is so bad. Josh, you made it come a moment ago. Basically what Jesus is preaching is that upside down kingdom. And I think that's really important here because that's what DHS is doing with this video is that they're flipping it right back over, right? They're trying to put themselves back on. And I think this one... represents even better than all of them, but I think they all have this problem. But I think what this one shows is the prevalence, not just in the government, but in our churches as well, and the danger of imperial theology that we have not detoxed from the Constantine idea of bringing church and state together and going for power. I mean, we are talking here, when Jesus is talking about the peacemakers, we're talking about someone who will, because of his preaching, be executed by the imperial state power, the imperial military force, and they're now trying to use his words to justify an imperial military force. I mean, it is the exact antithesis of the opposite of everything that Jesus is teaching in this passage. It's gross, it's profane, it's heretical, and it really should be condemned by all Christians, but again, if you go to social media, a lot of people are really excited about this video. You know, I think that the one thing that strikes me, especially about this particular one, I mean, all of them, but this one in particular is, uh I didn't grow up as a Christian. I mean, I remember very distinctly kind of like my, you know, me coming to Christ and just sort of like... me deciding to kind of like do a little nip and tuck on kind of like the way I was living my life. And at that moment, like I was very, very susceptible to bad theology because, you know, you're a new Christian. You're just like, I don't know, like, what do I, is there a secret handshake? You know, like, I don't really know, like, where do I go get my whatever cross or something. So, and I'm thinking like at the... m ceremony or funeral of Charlie Kirk, know, huge stadium full of people, huge numbers of people that are probably looking for a church, you know, like after that. And then they're like, hey, okay, so part of part of my identity now as a Christian is, know, I got to, uh you know, hate gay people vote Republican and interpret my, you know, this scripture, the way that DHS are telling me to interpret it. And the way they're telling me to interpret it is using night vision. goggles with, you know, people doing entering and clearing rooms, stuff I've actually done, uh and just being very, very like testosterone driven. So like, what's the implication of this, especially like on these new believers? I mean, that's the thing that really kind of like worries me. right here because they're saying that this is what it means to be a peacemaker and thus to be called the Son of God and so then what they're doing is that it's this imperial lens that's being put on scripture that what it means to follow Jesus, what it means to be a peacemaker, what it means to be a son or children of God is to support this administration and more broadly to support state power, imperial power. And that, like I said, I think this is the biggest area that the church needs to detox, the American church needs to detox. It's the ultimate sin of what Christian nationalism does by merging American and Christian identities. We confuse the kingdom of God with the kingdom of this world. And that's what this video is doing. And I just, this is something I've thought about and I just want to add it here that, you when we think about the government, because people are, you know, it feels confusing. It feels like Christianity should be able to be in the government, right? There's almost like a part, and I'm trying to like enter into the mind and even get to the place where I used to kind of be, which I can go to and even enter in the mind of many of my friends, people I love and know, which is like, well, is it really that bad? that it's Christian, right? What's the alternative? Is the alternative Islam? Is the alternative atheist? Is the alternative secular, which is really just a word for woke or atheist or whatever. And I'm accurately representing probably what they would say. I'm using like straw man's essentially, and I could expand on those, but it's like you see people with this sense like it shouldn't be that bad. that it's that that Christianity, I why wouldn't we want that? But I think the problem is that fundamentally, the way that Christ taught us to spread the kingdom of God and the methods by which we do that and the methods by which a government entity coerces. Essentially behavior, they're fundamentally uh opposed to each other like like it's a call. Jesus came with a call. of love. The government will give a call, but eventually, if you're not living the way that the laws are telling you, you are supposed to live, then they have the coercive power to stop you, to kill you, to put you away, if not kill you, then to drastically change your life by forcibly taking you from where you are to someone else and locking you up. So it's like, Christianity, how does it mix with that? How does the call to gospel mixed with I'm going to coerce you if you don't comply. And I think that's where the rub is. It's not that government is bad. It's that government can't achieve its purposes using the same methods that the gospel is supposed to achieve its purposes. They're fundamentally, I don't know, they're antithetical to one another. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that um if you have any, both you and Will. Yeah, I mean, think that's absolutely correct. I mean, we know that if someone doesn't have the freedom to say no, they don't really have the freedom to say yes. And that's why, you know, trying to spread Christianity with the power of the sword, might, it might temporarily prop up your numbers. But it never leads to true confession. I mean, that's why religion flourished in America compared to similar Western European nations is because we had a separation of church and state as opposed to being a Christian nation. And everything that they're trying to do right now with this is to reverse that, to tear down true separation of church and state, true religious liberty, and it's going to ultimately hurt the faith. It's going to pervert the faith. And even if we put aside some of those practical arguments, I think we as Christians we stand like no this is not the government's job to teach them how to apply the Bible because it's not just that they're like It's not just that DHS is being like we're teaching the Bible. No, no, no, no, they're Co-opting it to justify themselves. That's right. That's right Because they're using it to justify themselves. It's not about a call to repentance as there's no confession happening here It is that they're holding it up to say We're the holy, righteous ones, and you have to submit to us as God's righteous authority. And that is, you know, one, I think it's wrong, and two, it's really, really dangerous. What do you think, Will? I don't know, I think I'm... I'm probably a little bit different than you both in the sense of, um you know, I mean, you both are pastors. You guys understand the Bible way better than I do. um And you also come from a place of just having to apply the Bible, having to help other people apply the Bible. So, like, Bible verses on a social media post, like, I think probably resonates differently for you two than it does for me. Like, I think it's bad. I think it's like, I don't think they should do it. um Is that sort of the issue that I'm gonna sort of put my flag down on? uh Probably not, you know? But it is still really important. So my question is, how do you get something like this to become important for non-believers and people that are like, that sounds like a Christian problem, know? Like, so something that you guys take care of. Well, I think the reason that's important to non-believers right now is because of how much it's affecting our life. So I know that because the people in power are essentially ascribing to this, or at least using it. I don't know if they believe it or not, but I don't think Trump believes any of it. But I think that uh they're using it. I don't know. think for Christians, yeah, you appeal to Jesus. The only way we know who Jesus is is through good interpretation of the Bible. There's no other way we know who Jesus is. So, if we're not going to interpret the Bible right, then let's just get rid of, let's say goodbye to knowing who Jesus really is. And I think that's the appeal that I would make, because he's so important. It's not that I care if you ever even read Isaiah. I mean, that would be awesome if you did, but that's not as, I'm not nearly as concerned about that personally as you just really knowing who Jesus actually was and is. Yeah, mean, start with the Sermon on the Mount. If you're going to read something, pick that over Isaiah for sure. But yeah. Yeah, exactly. Actually read it. So, I mean, obviously, I do think I think that non-Christians as well as Christians, but, you know, should be concerned about a government that is that is looking to a religion to justify its actions as opposed to following the Constitution and the laws. Right. Like that's that's what I want our government doing. I want our government looking to the Constitution, looking to the laws, listening to the people. Absolutely. argument for that's for everybody for Christians I think we should be even more alarmed to see our sacred text being Misused this way, right? And I mean I grew up in a conservative Southern Baptist Church oh We historically would not Trust the government to teach us the Bible We would see that almost more like what the Antichrist is gonna do, right? I mean, I mean Same with the AG bro the Pentecostals same thing anyway good m mean, right? I mean, the devil quotes scripture. We know that. I mean, come on. So just because they're quoting the Bible doesn't mean they're righteous. And so like this should be like setting off all of the red alerts and red alarms. And it's not yet. And I think that that's, that's, that's, that's a, I think that's a, it's an indictment of the church that we have not taught people how to faithfully and carefully study the word. um And that we've got to spend more time to help people read the Bible in context So that when it happens right the alarm bells go off like whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not what the text means again Regardless of whether you support what ice is doing or not The alarm bells should be going off for every single Christian that this is wrong to use the Bible this way And that's why we've got to be dealing with this in our churches That's where people need to learn how to read the Bible not from government social media videos Yes, I absolutely agree. Please do that. Follow Brian to learn how to the Bible. Read the Bible according to Christian nationalists. Go pick up. are so many different. people have misused the Bible, but also how to the Bible better. Yes, exactly. There are a lot of things out there you can educate yourself on. Hey, Brian, tell them again how they can get connected to you and your work um and follow you. this has been a lot of fun. I appreciate the experimental format. This has been great. I hope people will pick up the Bible according to Christian Nationalists. You can also follow my work, I just wrote about Hexath and National Prayer Breakfast at publicwitness.wardenway.org. It's our email newsletter, A Public Witness. Great being with you guys. absolutely, Brian again. Yeah, thanks for joining us and to our viewers and our listeners guys. Thanks for joining us for another episode of Faithful Politics podcast. And make sure you like and subscribe and do all that stuff. Well, I guess you already have your hearer. We always say that we should have said at the beginning, Will, but well, it's all good. There's a Patreon. Do the sub stack. Come on, just do all that stuff. Support us. But we love you guys. And until next time, keep your conversations that way.