POV: When Government Uses Scripture – A Live Conversation with Brian Kaylor

This month’s live Point of View (POV) brings a close reading of several U.S. government social media posts that pair Bible verses and prayers with military messaging. We’re joined by author and journalist Brian Kaylor to examine how these passages are being used, what they mean in their original context, and whether that kind of messaging is appropriate for a pluralistic public institution.

We walk through four examples – Psalm 18, Psalm 23, Joshua 1:9, and the Lord’s Prayer – and ask two questions for each: Is this a faithful reading of the text? And what happens when scripture is used as institutional messaging by the government? The conversation explores how biblical language can shift from personal devotion to national branding, and what that does to public theology, civic identity, and the way people understand faith in a political environment.
We also discuss the role of military chaplains, the difference between individual religious expression and government-sponsored messaging, and recent developments around worship services hosted within federal institutions.

Transcript

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Well, hey guys, Josh Bertram here. Welcome to another POV that we do every second Thursday here at Faithful Politics. We're super excited to be able to hang out with you guys again tonight. And of course, I'm Josh Bertram. I'm your faithful host and we have Will with us, our political host. Will, it's good to see you. It's good to be seen, Josh. It's good to be seen. and you are the tech genius, the guru, the one. So if anything goes wrong, it's Will's fault, by the way. So I just wanted you guys to know that. You know, what's funny about, you know, being the tech guru tonight and being seen is that, you know, when the first like iPhones to the face identification thing, like they couldn't identify uh black faces. uh That's why DEI is important. Anyways, good to be here. that's why it's important. And yeah, and I was going to say something about like white majority being the persecuted ones that we were just talking about before. So I just would appreciate if you'd understand my plight and persecution. Well, thank you. And of course, tonight we have our good friend, Brian Kaler. It's good to see you, Brian, president at the word of way. Good to see you. How are things going again? Yeah, it's good to be seen with you all again, to get to hang out with you and go through some, you know, crazy stuff happening in government these days, but this is fun. get to, you know what I love about tonight? We just get to see how great the government is at interpreting scripture and helping us really get to the essence of it, dude. I mean, yes, our taxpayer dollars and put to work in very good ways. Okay, well, so here's what we're gonna do tonight, We're really excited and well, excited is kind of a weird word because it's also kind of just depressing. So maybe it's not as exciting as it is, but we just wanna get this out there. We feel compelled. I even posted something before this, like all Christians should be concerned about this because these are our scriptures that are being taken and used. I understand that scholars have been uh using these scriptures. People have used the Bible, right? I understand that, but it is the church's book. was made in the book. And of course, the Jewish scriptures, we know that and people of God. within the Old Testament, but this is our book, we should care about it. And tonight, we're gonna do a close reading of several different posts. I think we have four, three or four, something like that, but I think it's four. We're gonna three actually explicitly quote a scripture or put it there in writing in these posts from the Department of Defense or Department of War. We're gonna look at that tonight. And then one of them is actually a prayer that we'll look at, but it's the Lord's Prayer from the Bible. And just wanted to actually say a few things though before we jump into these posts. uh One is that we're not here to obviously attack Scripture. We love Scripture. I think everyone here on this call and we love Scripture even though we may have different interpretations of it. We love it. So it's not about attacking Scripture. It's also not about attacking service members. We love our service members. uh We have a veteran here on the call. Will, thank you for your service again. And we love our service members. That is nothing to do with our service. And every single one of these scriptures are great for our service members to take and to use as scriptures in their own heart and life. But the problem we will see is not how it's being used by individual soldiers, but how it's being used by our government. So go ahead, please. if you find value in what we're doing tonight, the episode that we released just on Tuesday um is going to be the exact same format, but it's all going to be focused on DHS. And maybe before you even get started, Brian, if you just don't want to even talk about the DHS stuff just a little bit, because I think that that might actually segue well into what we're going to talk about here. Yeah. And that was kind of, we had so much fun doing the DHS, the URL, vitamin to come back and do the department of defense here as well, because these are the two departments that have been using Bible verses the most in the social media post and the two that have created videos featuring Bible verses on top of images of, you know, militarized officers shooting guns. And in this case, we're going to be seeing them doing lots of military things, shooting missiles and flying fighter jets and so on and so on. Uh, and so we, we unpacked. four videos and two other posts that all use different scriptures in that video and talked about these verses in their actual context versus how that they were being co-opted or kidnapped by the Department of Homeland Security. And we're gonna use that same format here with the Department of Defense. I love that little switch that co-opted, I mean, kidnapped. I mean, yeah, with the Department of Homeland Security, it's like they're kidnapping Bible verses to justify kidnapping people. mean, you know. I don't know, with Department of Defense, I don't know if they're killing Bible verses. I might have to change my metaphor tonight. I love it. No, it's all good. just, I just love that. This is great. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to go through these posts and then we're basically going to ask the question. We're going to look at it and we're going to talk about it, its own context. And then we're going to basically ask two questions more or less. Is this being read faithfully? Let me give you a hint. Mostly not. uh And um is the messaging even more importantly though? I think, mean, obviously faithful interpretation is very important, but as important, I think, is the message, is this messaging appropriate for a pluralistic public institution like the United States government to be posting? That's really what we're asking and what Christians should think about this. without further ado, um do you want to go, Brian, can you set us up with the first one? And we have August 10th, we are one nation under God, Psalm 18. Is that the one you have that you're ready for, Will? We can do that one. yeah. So this was the first one they did. Yeah. I'll start setting it up while I was getting the tech going. And it has, a simple social media post on X and it said, we are one nation under God, which by the way is a phrase that the Department of Defense likes to use a lot. They use the one nation under God. might, maybe we can talk about this later if we have time, but they also have started hosting a monthly worship service. And most months they've posted photos from that service and usually with a caption, something about. us being one nation under God. So this is something that the social media team at the Department of Defense likes to use as a phrase. of Defense, Brian. So you're saying that Department of Defense is having, just to make sure our audience hears us, they're having a worship service once a month. And, okay. of these, um, occupational hazards. So we can talk about that a little bit later. If you have to go through these videos, um, because I think it's pretty significant and we start to see a theology that's being developed there as well. So this, that's what the caption was on this one, but then it's a video and we're going to play it and watch it in a moment. Um, with all of the images, basically just the U S military in action, right. And then slowly the Bible verse comes onto screen. I pursued my enemies and overtook them. did not turn back till they were destroyed. Psalm 1837. And of course, the inference by putting the verse on top of the US military in action is that the verse is about the US military. That we're pursuing our enemies and overtaking them and will not turn back until they are destroyed. Yes, so well, you play that? Are we able to do it so the audience can hear it and see it? the cheesy B-roll music they added to it. I can. Wait, like so that video, like you didn't see a video just then? I saw it moving. We just didn't hear it. I did. Oh, there was no music though. That's all right. Well, because on that one, the music was pretty horrendous. Oh, you took out the music. Got you. Okay, okay, Elevator music. Okay, so, all right. So very much then. let's think here. That's fine. We can move on. Thinking about, I'll just say the context in one minute. Brian will have you add on anything in here as well. then we'll ask, have they kept this in context? So Psalm 18 is a royal Thanksgiving Psalm. It has actually parallels in 2 Samuel 22. It's David praising God after deliverance. This is verse 37. It sits in the victory testimony section, a descriptive report inside of worship, uh not necessarily a timeless marching order. So Brian, what would you add to this and how have they done with the context here? Yeah, that's a good setup. you know, I think one of the things that should be alarming here is that this is a historical moment that David is describing with the Psalm. And so it's always dangerous then to just start applying it to any context or any situation. But particularly, I think what's happening here is they're reading the verse way too literally by putting it on top of all of these military images suggesting that, you know, we're going to go completely destroy the enemy. First of all, as you read through the psalm and maybe afterwards people might want to go through and read part of it, you'll find that David is heavy on poetic language. So we're not supposed, which is not surprising in the Psalms, right? We're not supposed to read it literally. Unless you think that there's smoke literally coming out of God's nostrils while burning coals are blazing in God's mouth and that God shot lightning bolts at people. All of that is in Psalm 18. All right, so... Like this is not intended to be read literally. And so that's the first thing I would say always as a warning with any, you know, song, this is poetry. It's poetry to music, but it's poetry. And so we need to be very carefully about applying that literally. The other thing I would add also is, know, Josh, you were saying, putting a little bit of the context here is it's David is talking about being rescued from Saul. All right. But what did David do? that got him rescued from Saul, he did not actually go and overtake Saul and destroy him, right? So again, this is that poetic side here that David doesn't actually go and kill Saul, but it's being used in this video to suggest it is about going and literally physically killing the enemy. Yes, Will, you had your hand raised, I like that. Yeah, I wanted to test the function. um When people talk about the Bible being an errant, is this kind of what they're talking about? Like treating the words on the screen very literally? No, I wouldn't say that. mean, some people might say, yeah, the Bible is inerrant and then they are taking a very literal interpretation, but there are many people that believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, including myself, that essentially um it's about... So genre is very important for inerrancy for the exact reason Brian just said. If you interpret um something that's supposed to be poetry as if it's literal, you're going to get very strange images and very strange ideas. i.e. God with smoke coming out of his nostrils, think there's imagery of God as a mother chicken, mother hen, things like that. So those aren't the things that you don't wanna envision God as a big chicken, the giant chicken, right? We say that to make sure that we understand how ridiculous it is to do it literally. I love what you said, Brian, and the thing I would add on here, so I think, okay, and this is where I wanna be really careful because, So is there any legitimate carryover? Well, I do think that God is a refuge in danger. And so I think for a soldier looking at it, again, this is what I'm saying, an individual soldier taking this scripture and saying, God is my refuge in danger. Okay, that's to me, okay. Again, that's someone who's a believer, they love God, this is the career path they've chosen, or maybe they felt they're called to it. whatever, and they've taken this and now this is, okay, I have humility and gratitude after my deliverance, whatever that might be. The problem with this is they've taken this and now they've put it to an entire institution, an entire country, uh which isn't just one person with one faith, right? uh This country is a lot of people with different faiths. And also it's saying, our enemies are God's enemies. Yes. This is the biggest problem with it. When a country says, is our scripture, and they claim that, then when they're saying, uh this is God's enemy, my enemy is God's enemy, and vice versa, because they're really not going, God's enemy is my enemy. They're really, it's more about my enemy is God's enemy. And by the way, Jesus said, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you anyway. They're not gonna do that. They're not gonna love their enemies. I don't know either. But just think, uh guys, a country can't, a nation cannot uh pray for those who persecute you, persecute them, and they can't do the same thing as a person is what I'm saying. A nation has to enforce laws. A nation has to defend itself, things like that. That's why when we start taking all these scriptures, and we bring them to the nation, the nation can't use the same incentive structures as Christians and the gospel because it uses a fundamentally different way of coercing people. Christians aren't supposed to coerce people. We're supposed to call and persuade and ask and call people back to something or to something. Anyway, I'll stop. That's what I wanted to add. So one thing that I'll put in here before we move on to the next one, when Brian, just for you, What would faithful speech look like? Like what would it look like for you to say like if What would it look like for this to be used legitimately? If there's a way that you think it could be within the Department of Defense or something? Because you might see some people like, whatever. Who cares if our government is using the Bible to say something good, right? I don't know. But that's not what's happening now. But I'm saying what might be legitimate, do you think? Is there one? So I don't see, and I think you just hit on the big picture here that's gonna apply to all of the videos that we're gonna watch. And I don't think it can be. And some of them are taken out of context more egregiously, but this danger of, this is what Christian nationalism does, right? So Christian nationalism is the confusing, the fusing and confusing of American and Christian identities. You're saying that to be American is to be a Christian and vice versa. And that's what this verse is doing here in this video is claiming that America is God's country and that this is God's army, the Lord's army, even though there are people of all religious traditions and no religious faith in the military, right? So that's one mistake that you're trying to baptize the entire military. And then the second thing is, you know, is that you're saying that automatically our enemies are God's enemies, which might actually include in some countries, in most countries, some actual believers. So now Non-believers in the military are on Team God. Yeah, right? And then we're gonna kill, we're gonna kill Christians as God's enemies in other countries, right? And so I don't think these verses can be used faithfully by any nation, but particularly the superpower, the empire of the world, right? I think that's gonna automatically be a problem. This is a personal Psalm that David was praying. And I think trying to put it onto a full nation is just, is always going to fail. Yeah, I like that. Go ahead, Will. I'm curious though, like how does how does like or how do chaplains fit in to like the whole thing? mean, I remember like when when I was oh totally Sainsies when when I was in the army and we deployed to Iraq, I remember we had a chaplain, real cool dude, black guy. And at the time I was at the time I was kind of flirting with Christianity. This is back in like 2003 or something like that. And he was kind. He never really tried to convert me, but I knew he was there. And I can go to him if I had questions. I had one of those old books, A Dummy's Guide to Christianity or something like that, that yellow looking thing. But the one thing that was weird, I will say, in hindsight, was before we deployed out of Kuwait into theater and to Iraq, I remember we were all in formation and they did like the little ash thing on my forehead like to everybody like we're all in formation. I mean it wasn't it wasn't even like voluntary. It was like all right, you know first sergeant something out of the year. So we're gonna be here, you know, and I it didn't make sense at all to me. I mean even like now I kind of understand it but even still I'm just like what the heck is this thing, you know? um So yeah, that that's really weird. I'd love just just get your sort of take about like How do chaplains fit into the whole church state separation thing? Yeah. So that last example you gave though is the problem, I think. That went too far. mean, so generally military chaplains are considered a kind of a gold standard of the chaplaincy programs. At least have been. Hegseth is wanting to completely change the chaplaincy program. He says he's going to make it great again, even though again, they're generally considered a great program. And I think what he's wanting, the devil's in the details. He hasn't announced it all yet, but I think he's wanting to make it more evangelistic and more of that kind of like that last example. Whereas in reality chaplains are often administrators, so facilitators, their job is to help every single service person wherever they may be in a faith journey and in whatever faith tradition they might be. And so a chaplain's job is to help every single service member be able to worship and grow in their own faith tradition, or if they don't feel that they can actually help them in that tradition, connect them with who can, right? So a chaplain, unlike a pastor, A pastor is going to serve, you know, very, very explicitly a Christian, a group of Christians and trying to convert people into becoming Christians. A chaplain is supposed to serve everyone and help facilitate all of the religious traditions occurring. And that conversion aspect is, is, is shied upon in most of their work. Right. And so that's a very different, it's a very, it's a really important role and it's a very different role. A chaplain, a pastor is not inherently a pastor and evangelist is definitely not inherently a chaplain, right? It's something different. There's unique training. There's unique education there. And it takes a very unique sensitivity, especially when you're dealing in government roles. Yeah, I don't know if it's still the case now, but but um one of the things that we all thought was weird was the chaplain always had like a private that was carrying a weapon, but the chaplain never carried a weapon. It was like for some reason it was like he was too holy to have a weapon, which is sort of the inverse of a lot of like what we see today, which is really weird. Yeah, I mean, it would make sense. The only thing I would say about it is that, again, it's like, it totally makes sense when you're thinking about the soldiers, because soldiers come from all sorts of different backgrounds, like you're saying, Brian. All sorts of people are Christians that are going in. And so what's going to happen? Well, they wanted to provide a way for people to have a pastoral presence there that represented their faith, because they're just American citizens with faith. just sounds like that's just good stewardship. of where people are because faith is such a huge part of people's lives that they have it. And I think that, I don't know, that's all I would say to me on this one. Going to the next post though, and this is probably, will probably be a little more controversial because of how well this is, how well known this verse is. And so you can go ahead, Brian, go ahead and set us up for this so yeah, this one, this one, the caption is I will fear no evil for you are with me. And then the longer version of the verse comes on the screen, kind of like the last one kind of cheesy music, lots of images of fighter jets and other things happening, just the military at action. And then on comes the screen. Though I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil for you are with me Psalm 23 for so yes, one of the one of the verses from the 23rd Psalm, really the most famous Psalm. So it's a very significant and deliberate decision to choose a verse from this Psalm for a video. I will say just one thing about this particular verse. I grew up, like I said, atheist most of my life, if you listen to the pod. But this one verse I knew better than any. Why? Because it was in gangsters paradise. You guys remember as I walked through the valley of the. That's right. All right. I got to be serious. something, something, something, I should have chosen that music. Okay. I mean, this is wild. Wild mashup right there. Yeah, it absolutely is. so thinking about this, So Psalm 23, right, is a Psalm of trust. David is writing this uh prayer. I mean, obviously, it's poetry to God. It's designed to form inner trust and prayerful dependence, not to authorize violent action or certify a cause. And I think that's just so clear. Like it's the per like it's a beautiful song dude given so that we and when we face danger of any kind and things that are overwhelming. again, for a individual soldier, completely appropriate in my, in my view, they're feeling like they're going into a place that's going to be dangerous. They're, they're praying for God to watch over them in the lowest Valley. The darkest valley, that's really what that means. not, it's actually not, doesn't mean the shadow of death. It's, the Hebrews, the darkest valley, which they typically would mean the most dangerous part of the trip. So essentially it's God asking to, I mean, the psalmist asking for God to help him in the most dangerous parts. So that makes sense. The center is presence and danger. He is with me, but it's not conquest, which is what we have here. So So what do we think about context here in terms of our verdict, Brian? Yeah, I mean, this is really pretty bad as you're noting. I mean, the Psalm is all about an individual Psalmist making clear that they trust in God and not in what this one is, they're trusting in the military, right? I mean, it's just uh a couple Psalms ahead of this one. I think it's Psalm 20 where we get the some trust in chariots, some trust in horses, know, we trust in God. And this is like trying to do both things. The Psalm here is the trusting in God side. while we see videos of people trusting in chariots and horses, just modern, very modern versions uh of chariots here, right? Very fancy, deadly chariots. Yes. I trust in discombobulators and tear gas. And no, wait, this is the DOD. Wait, no, it's different. They can't use tear gas. I forgot. The Department of War. We talked about that within the HS video. So it's it's banded war so that they uh that we cannot use tear gas in war, but we can use it on civilians in streets. But yeah, so I mean, you know, we talked about how how well known this Psalm is and Josh, I'm sure you've used it at funerals. I know I have and And that's the think that's the classic scene that people are going to think of a Psalm and there's good reasons, right? Because as you read through the Psalm is those peaceful scenes. It's literally not only is it about someone trusting in God, but God is also taking someone away from the battle. They're actually God is directing them away from the fight, away from the danger to the green pastures and still water. Right. It's not just that they're randomly going to hang out on a nice day. They're actually being taken from danger to safety. And so when we're reading this, I mean, this was so wild about this verse and we're reading it, you know, we're reading it at funerals because it brings us that scene of peace. We're not reading it at funeral because we now think grandma was flying a fighter jet shooting missiles at people. And I just, this is just so bizarre to me that this verse is being used this way. It is, it is, and it's like this is about a relationship under threat and it's used as some kind of triumphal declaration of what, our, and again, and another part of, okay, if the Lord is my shepherd, again, what does that mean? So it's our shepherd, so it's the United States, the shepherd. It is so important, the separation between nation and individual. m I just, it's really, really, really bad to do that because it's essentially using this for people that would be attracted to the Bible, right? And see it as a place of authority that it's a proof that our cause is righteous and our violence is approved. Okay, so I'm not talking about, I'm not gonna get into just worry theory. Maybe we can do that, another point. I'm not gonna get into all that. I'm not personally a pacifist. And yet I think violence should be a last resort uh very much in for just causes. And I don't know how just our causes in which is that's the whole thing we're talking about, right? Because all of this assumes a just in God endorsed cause on the part, which is something, but here's the problem. It's not argued. It's not shown. It's stated and assumed. And that's not an argument, that's a conclusion. And I don't accept it unless I'm showed. Go ahead, Will. Yeah, is there a is there like a parallel to other scriptures, maybe not even like in the faith and politics context? Because I remember, you know, there's a pastor I had that used to always make a point to say, and I'm going to butcher the scripture, but it's like the the I can do all things through Christ or something like that. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, well, can you dunk, you know, like, can you can you lose, you know, or or whatever? Another problem of not looking in context. Sorry, go ahead. like, are there other parallels like that, you know, based, you know, both of you guys are pastors. I'm sure that you've spent lots of time, you know, helping correct people, understand. So like, maybe each of you can give us like your best, like worldly biblical misinterpretation. I don't know about best or worst or whatever it is you're thinking about. But yeah, I mean, I this is a common problem is and I mean, honestly, I think we're kind of this week is is you all letting me walk through what I think are my best examples of the Bible being used out of context with the DHS and the DOD. I mean, like, literally, this is what I think is the worst of this. But I think it's something I think we all do. And it's obviously it's a temptation, right? So just to read a verse. Yeah, I like to joke. on the verse that you just, said, Will, that I could do all things through a verse taken out of context. That's really how we often approach the Bible. ah And we, I'm sure it is, it should be. Yeah, if not, Will should make it, but it's probably already out there. um But yeah, I think that's what we all do. We proof text, we don't actually read scripture that often. The average Christian doesn't actually pick up the Bible. and read. They're only hearing scripture on Sunday morning if they're listening to the sermon and I guess if they're on social media and a new government video comes on. And that's so, so I think two, two, two of those would be Philippians 4 13. Like you just said, because really that has to do with being able to do everything like in really hard situations and being able to fulfill God's will. Like I know how to be well fed or hungry, you know, rich and poor, all these things that Paul says that he's been in those places, but he learns how to do all things to Christ to give him strength. And so he knows like, hey, he's gonna be able to fulfill whatever Christ has for him. Whatever it is, any situation that comes up, he's gonna be able to um overcome in that situation, ultimately through Christ who gives him strength. But he ultimately died and he understood that was even going and being with Christ, I think in eternity. And so definitely is not, hey, I get to take this and then whatever I want to accomplish, I can do it. because I believe in Jesus. That is absolutely not the application of that verse. then Jeremiah 29, 11, it's a very clear one to me. I know the plans I have for you. And everyone forgets that was written to people in exile under foreign oppression. And they're wondering, God, why did you leave us? And he's saying, I have plans and they're coming for you to Israel. Now again, the Bible is written for us, not to us. people take that, Jeremiah 29, 11, that means God's going to use it for whatever it is to encourage themselves. And I think it's good to be encouraged by that. But again, it was written to Israel, had to get the context and all that. So was probably two of the ones that I would say will. Do you want to move on to post number three or is there more you want to say about this one? That's good. I look forward both those verses being used by the DoD in the future. They probably they probably will so so ah All right, we have in this next one you go ahead and set this up for us We've left the Psalms. that when we're doing these chronologically, so they really were starting with the Psalms and then we move to Joshua. And this one, the caption is part of the verse. I'll just read the whole verse that comes up because it's just like the last two, um except for it's a different verse, different clips, but it's the same basic principle. The next video will deviate some, but be strong and of good courage. Do not be afraid nor dismayed for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go. Joshua 1 9. Is that Batman theme? Do they they love Batman? Or is it only Batman? Oh, maybe it was and then it would be like the end credits or something Yeah, that's true. You're right. You're right. All right. Well, there you go. So, so let me give just a little bit of context. I'll have you take it away here, Brian. So of course we have Joshua one. Where's Joshua one? Well, it's right after Deuteronomy, which is fifth book of the Bible. I Jesus, Moses is that that's a, that's a Bible school. mean, the Sunday school answer for every Christian Jesus. Um, so Moses, right, has died and he's left. Um, Joshua is now his successor. And Joshua is facing a large task ahead of him, which is to go in into the promised land and fulfill God's plans there. so the courage is tied to covenant obedience, which covenant, what does that mean? Torah obedience, Torah meditation. And it sits at a threshold of again, the conquest narratives, which are their own uh their own, what is it called? Bag of, I don't know. I'm saying the wrong thing. I'm like, I can't think of what's right to say. It's like whenever you're live, something about being live, you can't think about it. A bag of tricks, but that's not right. That's weird. But anyway, can of worms. There you go. That's a good one. I don't know why I'm not thinking about that one, but yeah. So what's going on here, Brian? know. I think you're mixing those two up. All Yeah. So, you know, so I will say on this one, at least on context, like this one, at least does get us closer by far than the previous two to thinking about an actual like military action. Uh, this is, you know, we don't really have time to unpack everything with the story of Joshua and the conquest, but like, this is part of the, like getting Joshua, the, the, you know, prepared and ready to go and lead the people, which includes leading them into battle. So there is that, that like this one is at least less, I guess, completely just out of left field, like the Psalm 23 one. However, I mean, it's also very concerning. This is a verse, this is a passage that that section of Joshua one that has been used to justify genocide in multiple contexts historically. We always see ourselves as the Joshua's ready to go take out the Canaanites, including some of the people who first came from Europe through the Americas. Right. And so this is a, this is a passage that has been abused and twisted to justify some really horrible genocide in the past. And so that to me is a massive red flag of warning. like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm really nervous about a military, any military. starting to use this verse. But again, we've already kind of talked about, the biggest problem here is like, the Lord your God is with you. So again, the argument of this is that this is the Lord's army and that God is with the US military and that's why they should be of good courage and be strong and not be afraid is because God is with the US military as to help us go be the new Israel to go kill the new Canaanites, whoever they might be this time. Which is a very good question, right? Who are the Canaanites exactly that we are being called to exterminate? That's a very good question. Nobody, we're not being called to exterminate anybody. I just need to put that out there just to make sure that Christians are not called to exterminate anybody. We are called to love everybody. Okay. So yes, I agree with you with the military part. It's like, yes, there is that part of it. that idea is maybe courage um for integrity, maybe truth telling, maybe protecting the vulnerable, right? Or whatever it is that they're going to go out and God is part of this. if they're this sense like a righteous soldier, like a sense that someone's going to have a righteousness about them in the way that they care for people, even in the midst of these kind of combat zones and places. I think that's courage is a great thing, but just like you said, it is smuggled in America as Israel is smuggled in and it's just so. Hegseth is Joshua. He must be, dude. He must be. Right, what does that make Trump though? Moses? Anyway, so... don't know. Well, he's already Cyrus, guess. Anyway, I'm not going to go there. But it smuggles in America as Israel. Now, these kinds of things by association make us think, again, like you said, they're bypassing our critical parts of our brain, our critical apparatus in our brain, and they're going to the emotion, they're going to the nostalgia, they're going to the part of us. It's going to be like, yes, I want to be courageous. And what is it doing? Is it shutting down any sense of critical evaluation of what actually, how do I know that our army is God's army? How do I know that our values are God's values? How do I know that our mission is God's mission? There's a very specific mission that guy gave to Joshua and to the conquest, by the way, which had a very specific boundary too, that they were not allowed to go beyond. And so, You have this, it's snuck in that America is Israel. Again, it's a conclusion that isn't even stated. It's snuck in, it's implied, it's assumed, and it's not argued. And these are the most dangerous things because they appeal to your nostalgia, they appeal to your virtue, they appeal to your religiosity. They appeal to the things that are gonna compel you as a Christian or someone who might be attracted to that. And it's like, you're looking at this and like, you need to be warned. This is not the way that that's supposed to be like, um, interpreted. This is an art. This is a conclusion, not even being stated, being snuck in by putting two things together. I'll stop there. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, probably for me, the thing that's the most concerning is um just the attachment to the Bible verse, um especially if you're a new believer. I came to the faith in 2008, so I'm much newer. I'm a noob, as my kids would say, compared to you two. um So, so like if you're a verse like that, and you're like, be strong and have a good courage and you're, you know, and you're reading it on the, the Dow response, that seems sort of fitting today. um But the Pan-Bondi thing, anyways, the, you're, if if you're reading that and you're like, yeah, that, resonates, that feels good, you know, like, like there's a difference between can I believe something or must I believe something? So like, if I say, can I believe this? So like, well, heck. But DLD just posted it, you know? So now that's gonna go into my psyche, and that's gonna be my elephant all day long. And now in the future, um that might be something I have to deconstruct from. So when you think about why are all these people deconstructing, it's because they're deconstructing from bad theology. And if the government is using their platform, basically, as a literal pulpit that are reaching millions of people, then I think we probably haven't even begun to see what the outfall is going to be. Absolutely. Brian, what I was, go ahead. You can respond to that. I had a question I was going to ask you, but go ahead. is absolutely why we're having this conversation and why pastors need to be paying attention so that they can, because otherwise people are, this is how people are learning scripture and it's planting, they're getting planted in interpretation. And this is why we have to have these conversations and we have to be paying attention and we have to be deconstructing what the government is doing because otherwise I do think it's gonna end up leading people and cause, you know, problems of faith and misapplication in the future. Yeah, and what I was going to ask, like even Brian, to bring out more for our audience, like what happens when these kind of conquest scriptures become state branding? Like, why is this, I mean, we've been talking about it, why is this so dangerous for that to happen? yeah, yeah, I mean, why would we be concerned that the guy likes to call himself secretary of war has crusader tattoos? mean, you know, this worries me that there's also a crusader theology there that he's baptizing the nation and going to call us into war and expect you to die for God and country. so, know, this this this this always ends up being dangerous. never goes well when a military starts using religion, know, using Christianity to make itself the agents of divine justice in the world. It never ends well. No, really doesn't. I was even thinking theologic. No, no, I agree. Absolutely. It ultimately discredits faith. Absolutely it does. Because you're sitting there and you're like, wait a second, if I'm really baptizing these things that, again, it's going to have to be some kind of coercive power, some kind of violence that's essentially going to get... How does a country defend itself outside of coercion? Again, I'm not saying that in a... Like someone is coercive because they're sadistic. I'm saying that coercion forcing someone to do something, that's what the government has to do to keep an order of society. Because someone, eventually, someone has to be made to do it if they're not going to fall in line with whatever the cultural norms and standards are. So governments come in and they do that. The problem with all of this is that now we've taken the government and we've said, hey, whatever the government... is saying, God is saying that. uh So whatever the government is doing, God's okay with that. Whoever the government is bombing, whoever the government is uh arresting, whoever is being killed by the government, these are parts, they're at least um at a minimum uh necessary and acceptable collateral damage for doing God's will. It's just, it honestly makes me sick inside. It honestly makes me sick inside. And this idea, like, and people forget about this. We forget about this so much that when Jesus came and he brought the New Testament, now those who follow Christ, according to the New Testament, are the people of God. So now all of that stuff that had to do with the people of God in the Old Testament, this is why we move away from that. This is why America is not Israel, because America can't be Israel, because America is not in a covenant relationship with God given by Moses, because America isn't... We're not obeying the covenant. We're not even close to obeying anything like the covenant that God had given to the people, to His people. And then now the New Testament comes and clearly uh nations are dissolved under the banner of Christ. And so there is no nation of God today. There's no nation of God. So there's no people of God except the church. As I understand New Testament theology, and that's where like we're trying to understand how this is being used in a bad way. And so it's just, makes me so sad to be honest. And I really hope that people are paying attention and And even if you're hearing us, you're like, we're upsetting you with what we're saying. I hope that you can just say, let me at least explore and see what the best scholars say about these verses and just do the work yourself. You can do it and see how it compares. I would love for you to do that. All right, let's move on to the next one. Let's guys have something else on that. Move on. All right. So this one's gonna be a little bit different. This one has a caption. This one is it's the Department of Defense created the video, but this one actually Pete Hagseth posted it first and then they reposted it as opposed to posting it directly on a Pentagon account first. uh I guess it's Second War is a government account. um But it's captioned a prayer for Charlie, which is Charlie Kirk, our warriors and our nation. The opening scene will be from a bit earlier. after Kirk's assassination. Hegsath, you'll see that he's there with some soldiers. This definitely raises some problems. He told them all to their heads. And so he would offer a prayer and prayed and thanked God for Charlie Kirk's life and legacy. It's a little bit coercive when the in the military hierarchy, when the commander tells you the Secretary of Defense tells you to bow your head or tells you to do anything, you're probably gonna do it, right? So he does this a lot. He frequently tells those under his command to bow their heads and pray with him. And then after he had a prayer for, for, for Kirk, he then recited the Lord's Prayer. And so they took that audio and then start with just the opening clip with him, but then they, do what they did in the other videos that we've watched, put in lots of other clips, but this is obviously a lot longer because he's doing the whole Lord's Prayer. So we're doing the words of Jesus now, so this one's like the worst one to me. Yeah, yeah, I, that's really, really tough. So, so let's, There's so many weird things about this one, to be honest with you, because it's like, number one, just feel... So here's what happens, right? A prayer for Charlie, right? So already, like from the beginning, and obviously we'll go again, should we go with that stated, but uh Charlie Kirk should not have been shot and killed. That was awful, horrific. And it's just a testimony to where we are right now as a nation. And it's very sad. But to take this now... And it's clear. So if you if you em criticize this, it's almost automatically putting forward. Well, you're criticizing Charlie Kirk, which has nothing to do with this. Right. Really. But but it's like but it's already putting that out there, which it's already a very right hot button volatile issue that's going to get people very emotional, very. So you already put that in front, so it's almost like you can't say anything because if you say it, you're going to be like people are going to get angry you because you're somehow defacing the name and reputation of a man who passed away, can't defend himself. And so it's like, I don't like that tactic. I don't like the strategy. Again, I don't know if that was really their strategy, but I just have noticed that in the podcast. and different ways that people react. Anytime there's going to be something, some kind of criticism about TPSA or about Charlie Kirk, something he said, like there's automatically like this sense like, you can't do that because the man was killed. And it's horrible that that happened. And yet these things can kind of serve as, I don't know, like almost like a gate that you put in front. no one can, they had to go through that one first. before they can even get to the issues of here of how badly they're misusing the Lord's Prayer in this. And so how badly are they misusing it? I mean, I know what you saw, but I just, so I actually kind of, I wrote this out just because I think it's really important to see like the images and the words of Jesus. the, I mean, this, the very deliberate and uh just dangerous mismatch here. So just a couple of sections here, just for instance, I'm gonna tell you what Jesus is saying and what we're seeing on the screen. How would be thy name, missiles shooting into the sky? By kingdom come, fleet of naval vessels. Thy will be done, close up of a fighter jet in the air, on earth, tank rolling by, as it is in heaven, paratroopers launching from a plane. And then at the end we get, for thine is the kingdom, a close up of a soldier aiming a gun, and the power, aerial shots of fighter jets and helicopters on a runway, and the glory, a waving American flag, forever and ever, Trump, Vance, and Hegseth saluting, Amen, Department of war logo and name. I mean, that's just it's this is this is taking the Lord's name in vain. It's it's heresy. It's an abuse of Scripture, and it really should be condemned by anyone. I mean, this is our most sacred prayer. This is how Jesus taught his disciples to pray. If there's any prayer that is that is known by most Christians, it's this one because it shows up in some churches every Sunday and in other churches still regularly. And so they're taking really among our most sacred text and prayer and using it to be about something completely different than what it was about. Yes, and there are many things I could say about it, right? The context of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is starting his own, right? He's blessed by the peacemakers, like he's starting with the Beatitudes, a new redefinition of what it means to be blessed and what the good life is. He's talking about life in the kingdom, what it means to like really, in almost so much of what's in the Sermon on the Mount, right? In some way is a, It's a critique of the culture that was around the Sermon on the Mount, the Roman culture and the pagan culture of the time, and even of course the Jewish culture that Jesus came in and essentially targeted right in the middle of it and called down the idolatry and hypocrisy in it. And so yes, I do think it's quite appropriate for someone quoting this to call out the hypocrisy. in the heresy of using these words in such an inappropriate way uh personally. That's how I think it's a very inappropriate way to use these words. This is center of the certain on the Mount. A cry from Jesus to essentially teach people how to pray. And instead of teaching people how to pray, it's basically saying what? That warriors and prayers and warriors are the same. I really don't know what the message really was supposed to be and I just know that it's not what Jesus used it as. Quick quick question the the the last part the for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory like is that is that standard? Because I highlighted it when I put the slides together because the version that I I was reading didn't have that Yeah, that's not in the original... Yeah. Right, so a lot of Bibles will either put that section just in a footnote or put it in the text and then footnote it and say that that is not in the earliest manuscripts. It's in some ancient manuscripts, but it's not in the earliest manuscripts. And this is also a difference you'll see then. So while Protestant churches do largely say this because it's in the King James, Catholics generally don't. stop with deliver us from evil, amen. And so that's... makes this not even very ecumenical among Christians. You're not even being inclusive of all Christians when you start trying to use the Lord's Prayer, which is again, part of a problem with Christian nationalism is picking sides and justifying our tradition. But I think the bigger issue here is just this one, all of them fit this, but this one to me shows the danger of imperial theology that is infected not only the leaders in our government here, but in so many of our churches that people are sharing this video affirmingly. and not seeing the contrast here of if there are, mean, Jesus isn't giving this prayer for an Imperial military. He's someone who's killed literally by Imperial soldiers. I mean, if Jesus was criticizing anyone, I mean, someone who likes to call himself the secretary of war, right? mean, oh, actually, actually, know what? uh The cotton patch gospel translation. I don't know if you remember the cotton patch gospel, Clarence Jordan. New Testament, Greek PhD, he works on this in the 50s and 60s, where he not just changes the translation to English, but he's also changing the context. So Jesus is now roaming around the South in the 60s and preaching. And so instead of conflicts between Jews and Gentiles, it's conflicts between whites and blacks, right? So it's that we don't, what's a Samaritan? Who knows? But the Samaritan is the poor black man that comes and actually helps the Jew. Like that's what really helps the white Protestant, right? So he's changing the context so that we will actually understand some of these things that are lost in translation. I highly recommend it. It's a fascinating way of just bringing some of the scriptures alive again. But because Hexeth likes to call himself the secretary of war, the passage hits better at the Christmas story. It happened in those days that a proclamation went out from president Augustus that every citizen must register. This was the first registration while Quinerius was secretary of war, right? And so like what Jordan does in his translation is Jesus, just like this is what Luke does in his translation, right? Jesus is set up as in opposition to Caesar Augustus, right? The imperial power. So Jordan has Jesus as being born and the other side of the equation of good and evil is the president and the secretary of war, right? And that's the kind of like, detoxing from imperial theology or the critique of imperial theology that we need more of today. I mean, I absolutely, I absolutely agree. mean, yeah. just one question, just because the... A prayer for Charlie and Mike again, I'm not the pastor on the call. You two are like if is that a common prayer for somebody that Mike has just passed? No. Not that I've ever heard of. Yeah, is a... Psalm 23 would be more common, right? But this is the communal in worship gathering moment prayer that we say together, not just the pastor's prayer. absolutely, it's literally like Jesus is forming his disciples, showing them how to pray, and they're using it as a marketing function. Like it was for an intimate explanation to his disciples, explaining, showing them how to pray, um especially in Luke, it emphasizes that. um And this is a marketing function designed to make the military more visible. and persuade to get more people to recruit. Pretty sure Jesus was not trying to recruit more soldiers when he said this prayer. um There's so many issues um with it, but we're running out of time, so I uh want to kind of move and I want to just give um Brian, could you talk to us a little bit more about the worship in the Pentagon? What's going on with that just kind of for the people here with us now? What's going on with the worship in the Pentagon? Why do you see this as problematic? How can people find out more? And then we'll kind of uh end here after that. Perfect, yeah, I mean, I think one of the most problematic examples of Christian nationalism today is the government literally creating, crafting, running and hosting worship services. Christian, explicitly Christian, these are built as Christian worship services. Yeah. center to schedule the worship leaders? Do they have to have a CCLI account? what we- need a CCLI dude, says no, I can do whatever I want. so a lot of these pastors that have been that have been preaching have have friendships and relationships of Hegseth. So he seems to very intimately involved, which doesn't surprise me. So the most the most closest example we've had to this for is Richard Nixon planned and hosted White House worship services. And it was so he could control it. He could control what the pastor said because he was afraid of going to a church and having a pastor criticize him. Right. So it was all about it wasn't a proof of his piety. It was so he could control religion for as an instrument of his state. Right. And think that's what we're seeing. So back in May, Hegseth started this. It's been monthly, every month since then. Preachers have included Franklin Graham did the Christmas one and his Christmas message was about how we need to remember that God is a God of war. Merry Christmas. One of his sons has also preached. There's been four Southern Baptist pastors. There's been a pastor in Doug Wilson's denomination that Hegseth is part of, is his pastor. And then there was a former NFL player who preached at one of them as well. And the next one's next week. And so we'll see who shows up for it. So anyways, I've been writing about these and tracking them and people want to learn more about them. If you go to publicwitness.wordandway.org and then up on the top, there's a little tab that says government worship watch. uh Click that. I'll have details about all the ones at the Pentagon and also services that have now started the Department of Labor. Cause the secretary of labor was inspired after she went to a Pentagon service and started doing this as well. So I think we're going to see this continue to grow. So this is the government worship watch. I've been really the only person watching these other than the very first one and the Christmas one. No one else has written about any of the other services. And so trying to keep track of this because I think it's something really significant and alarming that we need to see how religion and Christian worship and hymns and prayers and Bible verses are being used to justify Hegseth's mission at the Pentagon right now. Yeah. Thank you so much for mentioning that. I think we definitely need to be paying attention. I have seen worship services, more worship services in the White House um than I ever heard of ever in my life. And I assumed that they didn't really have them like you're saying. And so they've now started them and I've seen a lot of different people and pastors I know have gone up and been invited and gone to, and I'm here in Virginia. so again, I think if I was invited, I think I probably would go, but I don't know how I'd feel. Probably wouldn't feel that great. Hex has to advice you, I've got some sermon ideas for you. So. if ExcePT invites me, Pete, buddy, you know, it's not that we don't like you. We just don't like the, you know, the way the Bible is being used anyway. So, well guys, thanks for coming out and be a part of us this tonight. We like getting this stuff out to you. Let us know your thoughts. Let us know issues you want us to tackle, issues you want us to get you more clarity on. We want to do that. We want to be of service to you. And we really appreciate you guys came and spent some time with us here on a Thursday night. yeah, and one more thing. uh Make sure you go out and buy Brian's book. um The Bible According to Christian Nationalists Exploiting Scripture for Political Power. It's an amazing book. um We've spoken with them about it so many times. Well, guys, thank you. Thanks, Brian, for being on. Will, thank you for joining. Yes. And to our audience, guys, love you. You're awesome. Oh, what? did join us live, I just want to give a shout out to Marisol Magana. Thank you for watching. uh You've been a very, very ah loyal listener and I can't see the names of anybody else. But if you are watching now, thank you so much. You're the best guys. Thank you. And until next time guys, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next month on the POV.