Beyond Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice: Angela Weszely on a “Pro-Grace” Approach to Abortion

What if the abortion debate is missing the most important framework entirely?

In this episode of Faithful Politics, Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram sit down with Angela Weszely, founder of ProGrace and author of Becoming ProGrace. Drawing from her experience in both ministry and pregnancy support work, Angela explains why the traditional “pro-life vs pro-choice” divide breaks down—and how a different, Jesus-centered approach could reshape the conversation.

They explore how political language fuels division, why many Christians feel tension with both sides, and what it would look like to prioritize grace, dignity, and shared responsibility for both women and children. This conversation moves beyond policy debates and focuses on how the church can better reflect the character of Jesus in one of the most contentious issues in society.

Learn more: https://prograce.org/

Book: Becoming ProGrace: Expanding the Abortion Conversation Beyond Life Versus Choice: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9781514011683

Guest Bio 

Angela Weszely is the founder and CEO of ProGrace, an organization that equips Christians to engage conversations about abortion in ways rooted in the example of Jesus rather than political reflexes. She previously spent nearly a decade leading development for a pregnancy support organization in Chicago, where her experiences exposed the tension between messaging and practice in the abortion space.

Her work now focuses on reframing the conversation around grace, dignity, and shared responsibility. She is the author of Becoming ProGrace, where she outlines a new approach aimed at helping Christians move beyond the traditional pro-life vs pro-choice divide.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

We have far more in common with each other than those two extremes that you just described, Josh. You just described two extremes on the party. Political parties have to speak in extreme, they have to speak in hyperbole, they have to stir up anxiety and danger to motivate you to vote. That is not the way of the kingdom. And so by just not saying how I'm going to vote, because of all the pain. Because of all the pain that's come before and the stereotypes that exist, now I can sit across the table from a Christian knowing that they share these four values I have.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Well, hey there, Faithful Politics viewers and listeners. If you're joining us on our podcast stream, thanks, guys, for joining another episode of the Faithful Politics Podcast. I am your faithful host, Josh Bertram, and I'm joined, as always. I'm journed. I'm joined. I can't talk today, Will. I'm joined, as always, by our political host, Will Wright. It's good to see you, Will.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Good to see you, Pastor Medea.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Pastor Medea. All right. And so today we're actually going to talk about something super cool. Everyone's favorite topic. We're going to talk about abortion. And we're going to talk about the ideas between pro-life, pro-choice, but maybe there's another option, Pro-Grace. And we're talking to Andrea Wesley, who's the founder and CEO of ProGrace, an organization that equips Christians to engage abortion conversations in ways rooted in the Bible. Wow. And the example of Jesus rather than partisan reflexes before Pro-Grace. She led a crisis pregnancy counseling resources, or she led rather carous pregnancy counseling resources in Chicago for roughly a decade. And she has a new book, Becoming Pro-Grace, that we're going to talk to her about today. Angela, thanks for jumping on Faithful Politics with us.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Hey, I'm so glad to be here with you guys. Can I make one clarification? It'll show how polarized this topic is. So the name of the organization was Keris. When we say Crisis Pregnancy Center, half of your listeners are going to have a negative reaction and half are going to have a positive reaction. So I just want to clarify to everyone that's not, well, it's part of my journey, but that's not what I'm going to talk about today. So I just didn't want listeners to drop off. This really is a new type of conversation.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

I love that. Hey, Will, I'm going to need to stop this and start it again because I'm on the wrong mic. Oh. Yeah.

unknown 2:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Pardon me. Like in the mic, it's it says MacBook Pro Microphone. Huh. Instead of the instead of my shore.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Is it still reading you on your site? Let me see here.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Yeah, it is. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

That's fine. We can just clip.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Sounds good. All right. So let's mark it. Boom. All right, marked. All right. That's great. Thanks for that clarification, by the way, Angela. Thank you. So I want to kind of start with your title, right? So we're talking about the book, but obviously we're going to talk about this broader conversation of abortion and your whole journey, which has brought you to this. So let's let's start with that. Help our audience understand what's this journey you've been on that brought you to a place where you felt like you had to present a third option. I'd like to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Great question. It's been about a 28-year journey. And I was not really involved in the pro-life or pro-choice space growing up, although I was raised very pro-life and very much that was the Christian view and the politics were intertwined in the way people presented it to me. So that was my background. I was always uncomfortable with the rhetoric. So I, like many Christians, stayed away. And I was looking for a position. I'd been in ministry, left ministry, burned out, my husband and I had a grace awakening. So that's some context from legalism to grace, fundamentally altered how I connected with Jesus and what my faith was about. So I wanted to go back into a Christian nonprofit space after that healing. And I saw this position opening for a director of development. That was my experience at the time, for an organization in Chicago that said they supported women facing unintended pregnancy. And I was like, this sounds great. This will not be political. This is common ground. I see you already smiling. This was 2005. You know, I know so much more now. I got into the organization and quickly realized the messaging to the donors had a lot of pro-life sounding language to it. It was highly focused on the child. And the language to the women was coming for non-biased help. And that isn't exactly what was happening. Everyone was very well-meaning and well-intentioned. And this was also a lot more common at the time than it is now, but there was definitely an idea that we need to influence a woman's decision. We will use information. Sometimes I saw people using persuasion, but we weren't going to tell women that before they come in. So this created a lot of dissonance in me. Things I experienced myself as a woman in church, being hurt by the church as a woman and just feeling icky about this, quite honestly, understanding grace and how any of us are transformed, and thinking this isn't even effective. And it's certainly not Christ-like. And so I just describe it as tension and the whole journey I started to try and understand what I was experiencing, what I was feeling, how to say, stay centered in my faith and that strong relationship with Jesus while saying this doesn't sound or feel like him. So that's how it started.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

I mean, it it seems like whatever the spiritual, I don't want to like mischaracterize it, but I'll just use a word. The spiritual awakening, whether that's what it was for you or not, like that focused around grace was sort of this turning point. Like I think like I'd love to just learn more about that. Like what what was it about sort of like your understanding of grace, that sort of like shift kind of like your entire narrative of what it means to be a Christian?

SPEAKER_00 6:45

Great question. And let me just say I've had to have about three of them. So I was so steeped in legalism. So I was raised, you could lose your salvation, and you could lose it by backsliding, was the word, which meant doing enough wrong things that at some point that relationship with God is cut off. Terrifying as a kid. I mean, now I've got other, I know other people who drew grew up in my church who just kind of let that wash over them, but I was so sensitive and wanted this connection with God that I believed all that and really became anxious. I was anxious in my faith, right? When am I going to do something? I actually remember a story I told a girlfriend in eighth grade, man, I really think I backsolated last year. I mean, what could I have done in seventh grade? I was a pretty good kid. But I said, man, I you know, I don't think I I don't think I'm a Christian anymore because of what I did.

unknown 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Anyway, this woman who, this young eighth grader who'd never been to church, said to me, that doesn't sound right. I remember thinking, like, yeah, maybe that doesn't sound right. So it really was first, I went on staff with a Christian organization that had the theology, really a pretty strong Calvinism, right? So that right there was a big jolt. Like, I can't lose my salvation. Once Jesus adopts me, I'm in. Like that was radically transformational in my mind. So this the mind piece for me happened first. This is the organization I eventually burnt out on after nine years, because I was still very performance-oriented in what I did. After that, I found a vineyard church. That's the denomination I still attend. And that's when I'd say I had the grace shift in my heart. So at the vineyard, they practice listening prayer. And so every time I'd go for prayer, they'd say, you know, I just sense God just wants you to know how much He loves you, the Father's love. And I kept thinking, like, are they saying this to everyone? Because it was the same message, whether I was at a conference or a different church. No, that's the message I needed to hear. And so actually through that journey, I also heard the pastor teach about Jesus. I mean, I really look back, I didn't hear Jesus stories in church until I was in my 30s. And this was a whole kingdom theology, the vineyard calls it, that Jesus, you know, he, he, he brought this new way of being and doing that is how God acts in the world. And it was so framed around him, Jesus being at the center. And that church, we had people in the church from different political sides. Okay, funny story. A friend of mine told me she was a Democrat and that she had worked for Bill Clinton and hoped he could be president forever. My jaw, I mean, I'm in my 30s, my jaw dropped. I was like, I'm Democrats. I just, and so, and then I started interacting with her and she loved Jesus. And there were all these shared values we had and connections as we were growing in this. So I don't even think I realized what was happening to me, but I was gradually changing through presence, right? So understanding God's grace for me. And then because of that, I wasn't afraid to be around people who disagreed with me. I could say to her, tell me more, rather than, oh my gosh, I'm gonna lose my salvation. I mean, I'm exaggerating, but I do think anxiety in our in our station with God is what keeps a lot of Christians bound and keeps us from questioning. I had a freedom to say God is big enough to hold our disagreements, obviously. What what would Jesus do? How would Jesus handle this? And uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

I mean, I I well, I love that. And it it just it really shows you the power of relationship to change stereotypes and to change how we view other people. Like, you know, it is kind of like some people are some of my conservative buddies, you know, especially like years ago when I I'm thinking of like even my attitude probably 10 years ago was I would hear, you know, something like that, and I basically would hear people talking, like, hey, I got this, I got these friends, and it's because you don't know anybody, you don't know any black people, you don't know any Asian people, you don't know any gay people, whatever it was, be whatever it was, like, that's not an argument, that's you know, that's not logical, let's stick to truth. When actually that's really true. That like I used to think it was trite. No, it's it's completely true. Once you know someone, those those ways that we generalize don't match anymore. They just there's too many mismatches. There's too many times when they're not the villain, when they're not the one that you've been painted right in your mind to think them as. And right, and you you come to learn that this is propaganda, right? Yeah, that this is we all we all tend, we use propaganda like it's a super negative thing, and I think it can be, but it really it's a very human thing to do is to try to present the best and to cut out the things you don't want people to see, to present the things to influence its rhetoric, right? Yeah, and and the reason I'm even getting into this, right, because your whole claim, there's been a lot of propaganda, I would just say, on both sides around the abortion issue, even pro-life versus pro-choice. Is that not some kind of propaganda and assumptions being built into those terms themselves? So I would love for you when you say beyond life beyond beyond life versus choice. Yes. Right. What are we talking about? Why is that binary, unhelpful, and even harmful when when Americans are talking about abortion?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Okay, I love this question, Josh. And what you just described in terms of how we interact with people is the gospels. I mean, I think I just want to start there for Christians with our shared value, which I talk one of the core pieces of the framework I use theologically is putting our shared Christian values above our political allegiance. Jesus, as our example, has got to be our primary shared value. And he was consistently resisting the Pharisees' attempts to stereotype and scapegoat, right? Every time he levels the playing field, he sees all humans equally, he values us all equally. So the this comes from him, I would like to say. I mean, that's where this discontent comes. And then second, the one the second framework, there's four, but I'll just do the first two. We call it equal value, equal dignity. So that is stepping back and understanding that God, you know, the Imago Dei in every person means that just as Jesus elevated us all equally, that's our call as Christians as well. That is the first place the political binary breaks down because you talked about those words being unhelpful. What they signal is pro-life means we're for the child, pro-choice means we're for the woman. Yet God sits above that and says he's equally for the woman and the child. So we can't even start to pursue shared values until we lay down those words. That's why they're not helpful, and say, hey, can we agree on this piece of the framework that God creates all life? He does that at some point during pregnancy. There is mystery with that, and different Christians, you know, are going to wrestle with that. And we need to wrestle with that in faith communities where we trust each other. At the same time, if the majority of us agree he creates life through pregnancy and the woman and the child have equal value and equal dignity, I mean, what would that do to build bridges among Christians? So let me ask you guys actually, since I know you guys sometimes disagree, how do those two pieces of the framework hit you? You know, the shared values above the political allegiance, and we start by saying equal value, equal dignity.

SPEAKER_02 15:05

Well, I mean, I can probably already answer that for both of us, but of course I'll let you speak to it, Will. Is that I mean, we say not right, not left, but up.

unknown 15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:15

And we always try to say, like, that's what we say, like that's our tagline, and that's what we try to say at the end of every episode. And then we also are like, yeah, well, we think everyone is made in the image of God. Yes. Now then me and Will, like, we start to, I think, probably disagree in some policy areas around maybe what that would and and maybe even we probably wouldn't even disagree as policy as much as even within the church times, like what ecclesially, ecclesia, I don't know, ecclesiastically, I'm trying to think of how to say, but essentially, how do we work this out in terms of how the church worships, what it what it accepts, what it blesses, things like that. And so we're probably very closely aligned, my guess, uh, on that, but we're not talking about that issue in particular. I'll stop there. Go ahead, Will.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Can you uh can you restate the question?

unknown 16:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Jonathan's over here filibustering, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

Well, I love the chance to have you guys kind of test out the thesis of the book, which is if we lay down the terms right and left or pro-life and pro-choice, could we unite around shared values? So the first two I mentioned were that we're gonna put our Christian values above our political allegiance, you know, Jesus as the example. And the second is we're gonna honor the Imago Day in every person. Equal value, equal dignity, regardless, to the end. No compromises on that. Even though it may be hard, like Josh said, to figure it out. Can we start with that sharing value? And I wondered how that hit you.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Yeah, I think, I think starting with with you know, God and Jesus sort of are at the top would be a good starting value. I I would probably introduce just another layer of complexity that, you know, the the arrancy or inerrancy of God or Jesus' word that's used in sort of that that conversation, you know, because like I could be a believer of someone else, they could be pro-life, you know, pro-life, I could be pro-choice. But and but then we're we're just gonna disagree because like if they were gonna make a theological argument, like I might come from it like with the scientific argument, like, okay, well, where do you think life begins kind of thing?

SPEAKER_00 17:32

So well, that's a great question. So if we put aside the policy and the scientific, how do you resonate with that statement, Will, that God creates all life and we're called to value everyone equally? And there's mystery about how that happens in pregnancy that we don't have to agree on, but we can agree on that essential core. You know, how does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Oh gosh. I I yeah, I I think I think so. I think that that that resonates with with me somewhat, and I'm and I'm like slowly wondering if I may be like a really, really bad sort of you know, person to try this on on because just my ideas about theology and just God. I believe in God and I believe He did create everything, you know. But again, it goes back to the errandsy part. Like, do I do I think that you know the earth is 6,000 years old? You know, no. But then again, I'm also probably overthinking this. I don't know. Did I answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

You totally did. And I what I'd like to say is I really appreciate your bravery in answering it because I think sometimes we have a fear that someone's trying to trap us. I'm not trying to trap you with your answer. And I'm not even referring to creation of the world, really just God breathes his essence into every person. Like I think that is enough of a theological, what a powerful theological core that Christians hold. And if we could trust each other, that we don't have to have every question around that answered, but we could hold that as our center. You just illustrated what I'm trying to illustrate. We don't have to agree on everything, but we could agree with that. So that was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

I think I think part of it, if I'm noticing, if I can just like kind of see what I'm maybe just think out loud of what I'm noticing, is that so like what I hear you saying, Will, is that you don't know what you think about the Bible's inerrancy as you as it's been taught to you, what that means. For instance, like the the is the Bible 6,000 years old, right? Or I mean, is the earth 6,000 years old? You know, something like that. Where which which you know, which to me is actually more of a literal interpretation of something that shouldn't be interpreted literally. That's not an inerrancy issue at all. So I think one thing though is like you're not sure about inerrancy, which I think a lot of people aren't sure about that. Yeah, right. But it's I think another thing though, I think is part of this is really like what is it about authority in truth? And so like the the idea that like so is the Bible how I think probably a good question for you, Will, just like it what is the Bible and what authority does it have in my life, and what method would I use to even determine that? Because like if you think about the scientific method, like, well, if I'm trying to be told that I'm supposed to trust the Bible, which you're telling me says it's 6,000, Earth is 6,000 years old, but I'm seeing this piling of evidence that makes a lot more sense that it's not, it seems like what you're telling me to do is trust something that I'm really, really everything in me is telling me I shouldn't be trusting this. And you're telling me I'm just supposed to do this because what? It's blind faith or or some kind of thing. And it's like that is, yeah, people have done that, and it's a terrible thing that they've done because they've essentially forced people in a particular interpretation of the Bible, and then said inerrancy means this interpretation, which it doesn't. And authority means this interpretation, which it doesn't. And so I think the question, like as a Christian, like, yeah, if you're gonna go in another certain so if I was having this conversation with you, Will, then okay, yeah, I guess the next question is, what is the Bible's authority? Because if we don't like, and how do we determine if it's saying something and when it said something, then that is like that's something that's that's true that I'm gonna align my life with. So that's even probably then the even more important question than even getting to the abortion question, because if if we can't come to a place of any kind of sense of how are we gonna get data about what God does think about abortion, how how does someone answer that question? Well, for the Christian, the answer lies in well, has traditionally lied in you go to the scriptures and try to understand them. And then the question is have you understood them in a with a method that is going to help you do it accurately? And I think like the two statements you made, Angela, to me, for the Christian, I think are statements. That every Christian could and should agree with. That that Imago Day is in every single person, and that and that it's a more important, way more important what God thinks, elevating that above what bipartisan policy thinks. I think if we got those two things, we would actually get a really long way if we could start agreeing on just those two things. Right. That's how I don't know. Will, did that make sense what I was saying? I don't want to, yeah, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

It it it did, but but it also brought up some other questions I I have for you, Angela. Like so like in this in this process of trying to, you know, get pro-choice, pro-life people together. I mean, like, what are sort of like those the biggest obstacles?

SPEAKER_02 23:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I mean, is it is it really, is it, is it theology, is it, is it politics, or or is there something something else or combination of both?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

It's a great question. It I really do think, well, so first of all, this only I've only seen Christians be brought together if they already have tension around how this is playing out in the political sphere. So those Christians that are 100% comfortable with how the pro-life, you know, the talking, the laws, everything, that's they think that's great. Or Christians that are 100% comfortable with the pro-choice platform and think that is the answer, there isn't a lot of space for unity because their thought about their Christian belief is intertwined with their politics. So I will just say that this isn't for every Christian. I, my hypothesis is there are a lot more of us who don't feel like either side fully articulates our understanding of Jesus, how he interacted in the world, right? He's God with skin on, at least that's what I believe, you know, from the scripture. He's he's embodying, he's showing us what God was like. And we don't feel like either political side really fully encapsulates that. Those Christians, we can have unifying conversations because then Christians are willing to say, hey, I will lay down my political allegiance and seek to have this conversation. So then it does become an issue of what theology will we agree on. So those are the first two I named. The second two are grace. So grace is the only path to transformation, as modeled by Jesus, as talked about by Paul later in scripture, like grace is it. And the fourth is that the Bible illustrates we have a shared responsibility when other people are hurting. So when Jesus said, You woe to you, Pharisees, you load people up with burdens they can't carry, and you're not willing to lift a finger to carry them. So I would say that one, that last one I just said, is where I am seeing a lot of Christians disagree on what does that mean? Empathy, shared responsibility, there's a lot of noise on that. So, but the other, the then definitely the first two, equal value, equal dignity, and grace, I feel like people are like, yes, yes. And then we start talking about what that looks like with putting Jesus above politics. So people get worried about not using their same language. Like, because I don't say words that are political tropes, people get a little nervous. Like, is she theologically aligned? Um, and then that last thing about shared responsibility is a one where people are like, but wait, I keep getting this question. Isn't this person, you know, Angela, weigh in on the morality of what this person is doing? And I'm like, I want to talk about what society looks like and our shared responsibility for society. That unnerves some Christians, I would say. But other than that, I have really great bridge building conversations, much more than I have ones that break down.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah, I think like once you get, like you said, once you get past some of those words that just because of the connotations that they've picked up, like pro-life, pro-choice, like I mean, you know, reproductive health care, you know, like people like, oh, that's just, you know, euphemism for killing babies. Okay. So like that people start to get very, very, very intense about these things. And because uh our brains are designed with to have these patterns that recognize, hey, when this word is said, all these things come with it. And so I'm trying to pick up on danger pretty immediately. Yes. So it's like and and this abortion issue somehow ignites danger in the mind of people. And and and so I always think about this like on the one hand, you have, and we've had people like the guy who came on the case for Christian nationalism, you look at some of the documents, right? Within uh I'm not don't remember if that book addressed abortion actually, but I know in their documents, the statement on Christian nationalism essentially they said that it's murder. Uh and so because this is a person, it's murder. And as an implication of that in terms of policy, uh doctors who perform abortion and women who receive abortion can be charged with murder. So uh that so we have that on one side. Uh this is an argument happening right now in the public sphere, very much alive. And then we on the have on the other side where the mother's choice is given so much the mother's autonomy is raised above the health and the value of that child's life so much so, in my opinion, that you could if you can ever justify number one, having an abortion because of like some kind of like like like 90 percent, I think I've seen the statistics of of Down syndrome. If it's discovered that they have Down syndrome, ninety sim percent of those babies are are aborted. Okay, so by the way, many of them I I they I had two doctors tell me that they were concerned that my child might have Down syndrome because and and they were wrong both times. So that scares me that so many people are are being pushed in. I know, I'm getting on a sorry, I'll move off this. But that definitely scares me. And that that you could get to the place where you could actually abort a child at 39 weeks, 38 weeks, where you could there is no demonstrable difference between that child there and a fully healthy child that's just been born.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

So let's defuse the danger.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

No, no, it's so yeah, this is how people think though, right? I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:13

So let's see if we can defuse the danger. Let's see. I think that's I love that you said that. When our mind thinks danger, we're not curious. We're in self-protection mode. So when we understand we're with other believers that we can trust, then that danger can go down, hopefully, and we can actually get curious and have conversations. So the one place where the danger can goes down in the pro-grace community when we have these discussions is we don't discuss policy regarding whether abortion be legal or not. That is off the table. It's not even a part of our conversations. People are free to have that conversation in all the other places. And obviously, I strongly recommend voting, and I do, and I know some people are called to politics. We don't, I don't ever say how I voted. Very few people know how I vote, only trusted people. Even my colleagues and those I work closest with, we don't discuss it. So right there, we've taken off one dangerous piece that signals you are the other side. Because I believe as Christians, we have far more in common with each other than those two extremes that you just described, Josh. You just described two extremes on the party. Political parties have to speak in extreme, they have to speak in hyperbole, they have to stir up anxiety and danger to motivate you to vote. That is not the way of the kingdom. And so by just not saying how I'm going to vote, because of all the because of all the pain that's come before and the stereotypes that exist, now I can sit across a table from a Christian knowing that they share these four values I have. Now, we may disagree on nuances of those, but we can at least have the conversation of what we agree on first. Um, and the last thing I'd like to say to this piece, not the last thing we could talk about, it is Jesus does this all the time. The Pharisees are always coming with politics, a lot of the questions are politically charged, and it says they're trying to trap him. So we use the story in John 8 a lot in talking about grace in our framework. In that story, the Pharisees grabbed a woman caught in the act of adultery and said the law commands us to stone her, which they were completely lying about because there would have been a man there and the law said both of them. So they literally were willing to set up another human to possibly be stoned to trap Jesus, right? And he completely diffuses that situation. And this happens all the time. So that's where we can diffuse danger if we say, hey, we're gonna follow his example. We're not gonna deal in the half-truths that come from the political rhetoric. We're just gonna try and sit and say, who is he? How can we unite around that? That is the first thing that brings down the danger, danger meter.

unknown 32:17

Right?

SPEAKER_02 32:18

I love the danger meter. No, I love that. That's all it's so good. It's so good. The elephant meter, dude. Maybe we should call it the elephant meter, dude.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah. If you're familiar with the uh Jonathan Height sort of like righteous mind elephant writer, elephant meter would would actually work really well too. But yeah. I I am curious, just with all of the conversations and just work you've done, like, and kind of maybe building on the uh the Jesus example you did, like like Jesus was killed because the message the Pharisees were preaching, right? In some regards. I don't know if that's historically accurate. I'll I'll relax. That's pretty good. That's pretty good. So uh so so given that like in today's day and age, like people's views about abortion, I I I I I find are very weird in the sense of like I can't remember like when I was first introduced to the concept of abortion. I was probably in college sometime, you know, and at the time I was like, I don't know, I don't really have an opinion on this, you know, and I don't think I really had a strong opinion on it until I got married. And you know, my wife and I are trying to have kids and all this other kind of stuff. So so I'd love to just kind of hear from you like, like, where do you think people's views about a abortion, one way or another, are are kind of being being driven?

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Man, so first of all, this happens a lot more than we know or talk about. So some of the views are based on what we see. So whether we are talking with someone who's had an abortion or we ourselves are in that situation. So this doesn't get talked about a lot because a lot of Christians don't talk about their lived experience. But I know from people who have the lived experience, they will talk about their views being formed very young in church and in their family. So I have heard this more than I can count. Hey, my parents, you know, definitely I knew pregnancy was I should not come home pregnant, you know. So that actually drives a lot of people to an abortion decision because, and we can talk about this, that the narrative of shame and scarcity is so strong around this that it's actually the narrative, you know, then that's my issue with abortion is are is either side listening enough to women and to why? And are we really supporting women either way? Um, a second place it comes is from church. So another woman who was in church her whole life specifically said, I saw how my church talked about women, right? So this is happening in the church. And she was like, I knew I wasn't going to be able to do that. And so I do know like life way research has done studies. The viewpoint of how I will be received in church if I'm facing an unintended pregnancy is not very positively. So a lot of judgment, that's that's the perception. So it is coming though, I think much more subtly than we realize. So like it's there, but it is a lot of time woven in comments like how we talk about single parents, for example, or when we're voting, how do we talk about helping people who are in struggle? Are they in struggle 100% because it's their fault? Or do we as a society share some of that? All these things shape how we're going to view abortion, if that makes sense. And then lastly, I have a whole section in the book about this because I feel so strongly about it. It's also driven by wrong assumptions about women. There's a lot of wrong assumptions about women, especially when it comes to a pregnancy where there are two people involved, and yet so much of the responsibility and everything falls on the woman. We have to unpack a lot of that as well. So abortion is tied to other issues, as it really is not a simple answer. It's coming from everywhere. And there are a lot of people who say I grew up with a political framework. So they're hearing that at home too, but that's not it. It's all this other stuff that is helping form a narrative of either we support and value women, you know, and talk about this respectfully, or we don't. And that ends up shaping how people feel. At least they can come with their lived experience, but also how they can have the conversation. Like, I didn't want to have the conversation because I had experienced rhetoric, like I think on TV is where I saw it and was like, I don't want to be like that, right? So it's just, it's in the air. It's like all around us.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I I would love to spend a few minutes thinking about the theology of it. And and because like these values are tied to, you know, their theological values, right? Because they're shared amongst Christians. Yes. And thinking about what the Bible says about this. Now, we had um Tremper Longman, great good friend of ours, love Trimper on uh Faithful Politics. He's been on, I think, four times. Wow. So we're gonna have him on again. Yeah, and he wrote a book called The Bible and the Ballot, and it's a book every Christian, I think, should read. You don't have to great right argue with what he's doing, but listen to his arguments. He's a brilliant scholar. And and every Christian should read the one on abortion, especially. And essentially, I wanna I wanna frame this and then kind of get your thoughts. But the first thing that he's trying to do is he's basically saying, and this is gonna be the thing that surprises everybody, is that the Bible actually isn't very clear about abortion. Not nearly as clear as we were taught. That that's what I'll say. Now, now, he Roe v. Wade evangelicals, what do we do? We rallied around abortion. Not only evangelicals, Catholics rallied around abortion. Many people assumed, right, because of this, it was explicit, clear. The Bible is crystal clear about it. But what is we had a Moyne and he talked about this, and in the book, he basically argues it's actually not clear. Like the Bible never explicitly and clearly prohibits abortion. And so what do you have to do? You actually have to think through it from a principle viewpoint and and come at it indirectly, right? How do you reason morally when the Bible isn't giving you a clear, neat proof text that you can go to? And even the proof text that people go to, he does a great job in that chapter explaining hyperbole in the Psalms, explaining the fact of different translations within the Exodus passage that people go to. And and in particular, the reality is abortion was widespread within the ancient world. So, and and actually, the a guy, Meredith Klein, who is a very famous Old Testament scholar, brilliant scholar, he essentially, and very pro-life, essentially said the most the strangest thing about abortion is that the and the Bible is that the Bible never talks about it. He's like, that's the strangest thing about it, is that the Bible doesn't. And this is like a very pro-life, very conservative, but a brilliant Old Testament scholar. And especially given how widespread abortion was in the ancient world, it wasn't an unknown thing. So, what does that have to do for Christians in my mind? Humility is number one. We have humility about this. And I just would love to hear from your perspective where does the Bible come into this, besides establishing the values, which I think is absolutely brilliant, key, it absolutely needs to happen. Where do you go in terms of how the Bible addresses the issue of life, the issue of birth, it those kinds of things? How does it actually speak to abortion? Yes, in your interpretation.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Yep. So I, first of all, the goal of the framework is not to persuade anyone. So I would like to say that right away. A lot of abortion arguments are persuasion-based. That is not my goal. The my goal is that the church would look like Jesus in the abortion conversation. Full stop. I'm not here to persuade on voting. We've already touched voting, and now we're touching, you're talking about an ethical view, right? I am not, that is not my work. That is not my calling. Almost everybody who talks about abortion does those two things. And that is not, that is not what progress is about. So we are about how are we becoming formed to be like Jesus so we can value what he values. So I will more fully describe our view on God creates all life because this is a key part of what we do talk about and ask believers to wrestle with. And that is God's design of pregnancy. So he did not have to create life this way. I believe he picked it. And I do think every believer needs to sit with the mystery and the beauty and the honor and the difficulty and the vulnerableness and the esteem of what it means that in pregnancy, he first of all, he gave that to women, which needs to be talked about. At the same time, it's too big for one woman. So he gave us support systems and we're a community. And he also in pregnancy did something very unique, and that is anything you do to one person impacts the other. So you do have no, and again, this is where Christians do have to believe that at some point during pregnancy, there's a woman and a child intertwined. So that would be the only, there could be Christians that disagree with that. So, but that is the one thing that pro-grace rests on, that that very design of pregnancy, God Himself has made it impossible for us to say, I'm gonna help one and ignore the other. So this holistic idea that we're gonna elevate both and help both at the same time really is at the core foundation. And I will answer every question with how we can help both. Because here's the thing I say to pro-life Christians God cares about the child he's creating far more than any pro-life advocate. And God cares about the woman to pro-choice advocates that he's created more than any pro-choice advocate. So we should not care about justice less. We should care about justice more when we think about both people and how does our society support both people? Spoiler, not very well. So that is why any ethical concerns for me are back on the church, which is what Jesus modeled in John 8. They literally said, What do we do about this woman? And Jesus is like, hmm, first of all, he takes a danger meter down. And then he says, Let's talk about all of us collectively. So that is the pro-grace conversation that I'm hoping Christians can unite around. And I would say there will be much, much, much more human flourishing for all people involved if we were to do this. So that's why, because I don't want any energy to get sucked into those divisive things. We don't actually have a Christian theological kingdom value that we can hold above politics or an ethical consideration. We actually don't have a Jesus-shaped kingdom narrative for this. So I'm very narrow. That's that's the niche we're called to, because I think when that happens, God will unleash amazing change in our society. But it can't happen until we become more like him. So I just stay really, really focused. Are we becoming like Jesus? And how we think about the Imago Day, in how we talk about with grace, in how we share responsibility, all these things. Do we look more like Jesus? Full stop.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah, I'm curious about the um the combinations of conversations that can occur around this topic. I mean, so assuming that we just keep with you know a Christian subgroup, you know, you've got you know, guy, girl, and each person could have a pro-life or pro-choice sort of like viewpoint. Like, do do you find that that certain combinations like like like make make more sense? Because what's what's funny is because before we started recording, Josh and I were talking, I was like, you know what? Like I don't hardly ever think about abortion. Like, at least at this stage of my life, you know? Um and and it's just like, but I'm a guy, I recognize that, you know, like I just the biology of of it all just doesn't really affect me, you know, and I'm sure I probably sessions are like this is why women should make decisions before women's bodies, you know. But but re regardless of that, I I do think that there's something just about some people just don't think about this, but still have a strong opinion about it. And so I'd love for you just to kind of just talk to us about like like like like what do you see when certain viewpoints from different people, either political, gender, or you know, ethnic or something like that, get together and and try to talk about this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Yeah, again, it's so fascinating to me because I have seen conversation break down with someone who's a lot like me on everything you just said, except they're comfortable with the political framing, right? And then I've seen conversation flourish, like in person, where there are men and women, different ethnicities working in church, not working in church, because they came in with some tension themselves. That's why I can't stress this enough. We have to already be on a journey. Again, I'm not here to convince anybody. This is a message for people where God is already shaking something up. I, in my experience, people like that are so they feel so like a weight taken off. They feel so, it's refreshing that it's not the same binary, that the curiosity level goes way, way up. And there's so much listening that happens, there's so much respect, there's a tenderness that happens, and it's a completely different posture than when someone comes in believing this is the way and is just gonna argue with me. Like, I don't even do that because that's not my job. But far more I do see unity being built and care. I mean, one really key piece is men and women having the conversation together in Christian spaces. I've just seen some really, you can feel the women get nervous. You can all the turt hurt, and it's like I feel that, and you I can feel the men honoring that and coming in with a humble attitude, and then things start to shift. And when the men say, I want to listen because I care, then women feel the freedom to speak. And it's like, oh man, this who else is gonna do this in society, right? Like Christians, if Christians can do this, and I've really seen some beautiful assumptions being broken down when we try to have these conversations across discussions. And I would even say from an ethnic point in different churches, different churches from denominations handle this differently. I haven't spoken to very many that say, hey, we don't want any help, or no, we're fine. I think there's a real longing to have this conversation, regardless of the denomination.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

So Yeah, I I I definitely agree with that sentiment. I I I think that you're absolutely keying in on a stream within society. I think you're keying in on a something, not just in society, but I think within the subculture of Christianity, that you're keying in on something in my generation, right? Millennials are sort of moving into more and more influence and decision making. It's we're trying to figure this out. And we know that the classic ways of this is murder or this is or or whatever anything goes, we don't like that, but it feels a it feels like it's an uphill battle. We feels like Sisyphus, what was that guy's name that's pushing up the frickin' boulder up a hill and it's just gonna fall back down because somebody's gonna come in and they're gonna say, But you're murdering babies, and they're gonna scream and they're gonna they're gonna come hand you a fetus. Uh literally, this is the kinds of things that have happened, right? Or blow up an abortion clinic, or and then, or on the other side, I'm just not as aware of what happens, but the demonization that happens of ignorant people that just, you know, these these horror, horrifying redneck, you know, Christians, all the different things that people can start thinking. And this is like we've got to get past that because we don't want that anymore. And we're not seeing examples from our political leaders, so we're gonna have to go to other leaders. And we're not seeing it from our religious leaders, so we need to start stepping up, and that's what I'm trying to do. I know that's what you're trying to do. Yeah. I love what you're doing. And you're envisioning a united church. Yes. And I guess how realistic do you think that is? Like, what is unity? What does that look like? What does that even mean around this topic? Because you just said, right? And I'm not trying to, you know, I don't know, I'm not trying to sound like I'm trying to provoke you, but like you said that I don't go political.

unknown 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

But people live in political worlds where they're being told this is murder or this is or this is completely fine. So what what does unity look like, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Well, so the longer I do this, the more I just keep talking about Jesus because that's where unity comes from. If we say that he is God in the flesh and he is our model for everything, then I have no doubt, I have zero doubt that Christians who really believe that, who've had this grace encounter and are in love with the beautiful person of Jesus and want his presence in these conversations, those Christians can absolutely be united. I just I will say that declaratively. Now, do I know how many of them are out there? I do not. So that is what I don't know. But I dream of a day, and I'm actually being comfortable, the fact that I may not live to see it. That's okay. But there is this fiery dream inside me that there would be a different Christian response to abortion that is rooted in the unity that comes from having our eyes on Jesus. And that when people see us, they'd say, Oh, that that looks like how that looks like Jesus. That sounds like Jesus, that feels like Jesus. That is the only way we are going to get out of these. What you're describing are mental models. They're like ruts for people. They're all based on half truths. All of them are based on half truths. You cannot help a child without helping a woman. You cannot say you're helping a woman without understanding why she feels abortion is her only option. Like we have to start helping both of them. This, this either or isn't helpful. And Jesus is the one. I mean, just read the gospels. He's gonna offer us that pathway. I'm not gonna do it, but I'm envisioning him do it as we as we say he is more important. He's our model. Actually, I just think in a lot of all these every social justice area, we need to get back to how he interacted. That's where the change is gonna come.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

So I uh I I really, really love everything you're doing. And I and I want to end, you know, obviously with a chance for you to plug your book and and everything. But can you can you could just end us like on a really, really great feel-good story where you've seen like this thing Ashley Work so people can, you know, just be even more motivated to buy your book?

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Absolutely. Well, I will say one thing I love about the book is there's 14 chapters, and every chapter ends with a guest essay of someone who's in the ProGreys community telling their experience. Those are the feel-good stories, and they they range so differently from one woman who said her her daughter was so alienated. She went to church the week after Roe v. Wade was overturned. And she doesn't go to church a lot. There's some hurt there, but the pastor was celebrating that it was overturned, and that's all he was saying. And she was like, What about all the women in here who've walked through this? You know, and she she left. And her mom had just been in a pro-grace meeting and was able to share the messaging with her, and they were able to have a conversation that again was like, that church didn't represent Jesus. Let's talk about Jesus, you know, and and that's a that can happen, you know, there's those things that happen in a moment, and then there's the stories of like people with lived experience, they'll say, This is the first time I heard Christians valuing the woman as much as the child, and them starting their own group in their church for people with lived experience, them bringing their pastor in to walk through the program. So this, the heroes are the people within the community who are step-by-step reframing and then going out. Another really cool thing that happens, we have people go ask questions as they're walking through our program. And one question is, hey, how did you hear our family talk about this? Right? Siblings will say, Hey, well, I never told you this, but I had an abortion. I mean, it could have been 40 years before. And so just the, again, that's what feels like God. It never looks the same. It's always very contextualized, but there's always honesty that bubbles up, empathy, acceptance, and and hope. Hope for helping each other in a different reality. So that's the feel-good piece of this.

SPEAKER_01 54:32

Well, I wish you nothing but success. This is a really, really tough topic, and it sounds like you you've got uh a lot of soil to plow. I think that's the right metaphor.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

So that yep, that works.

SPEAKER_01 54:47

How can uh how can people you know find out more about your book, uh, buy your book? Yeah, just learn more about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 54:53

Yeah, absolutely. Well, the website is progress.org. So the book is available there as well as different programs we offer. Obviously, on Amazon, different things. I'm on Instagram, would love to have this conversation. Really am looking to build a community of folks that again, we want to get our danger meter down and know, okay, this is a safe place to have the conversation. So yeah, I hope to hear from folks.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Awesome. Well, um, Angela Wesley, becoming pro-grace, expanding the abortion conversation beyond life versus choice. Um, thank you so much for being okay to politics.

SPEAKER_00 55:25

Thanks, you guys. This was a great conversation. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Thank you. And uh to our audience, hey, thanks again for stopping by. And as always, keep your conversations not right or left, but up. And we'll see you next time. Take care.