Religious Trauma, Deconstruction, and Finding Agency — with Morgan Piercy

What happens when faith becomes a source of harm instead of healing?

In this episode of Faithful Politics, Will Wright and Pastor Josh Burtram sit down with therapist Morgan Piercy, who specializes in religious trauma, deconstruction, and identity rebuilding after high-control faith environments. Drawing from both clinical experience and personal background, Piercy explains how religious trauma forms, why it often surfaces after someone leaves a church, and how it reshapes identity, relationships, and mental health.

The conversation breaks down key concepts like the overlap between trauma and deconstruction, the role of grief and loss of certainty, and how systems of control can operate within religious spaces. Piercy also introduces practical frameworks like Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and the BITE model to help listeners understand how belief systems can influence behavior, thought patterns, and emotional well-being.

The episode also explores how pastors and faith leaders can better recognize signs of distress in their congregations, the psychological impact of purity culture and moral anxiety, and the challenges faced by LGBTQ individuals navigating faith communities. Throughout the discussion, the focus stays on autonomy, agency, and the process of rebuilding a belief system that aligns with one’s lived experience.

This is a grounded conversation for anyone working through questions about faith, identity, and what it means to move forward after leaving a rigid religious environment.

Resources & Links

• Morgan Piercy Website: https://www.morganpiercy.com
• Deconstruction Counseling: https://www.deconstructionkc.com

Guest Bio 

Morgan Piercy is a licensed professional counselor who specializes in religious trauma, faith deconstruction, and identity development after high-control religious environments. Her work focuses on helping individuals navigate complex trauma, anxiety, OCD, and the psychological impact of rigid belief systems. Drawing from both clinical training and personal experience, she uses evidence-based approaches like Acceptance and Commitment Therapy to help clients rebuild autonomy and ali

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Organization is gonna have some sort of behavioral control, right? If there's any sort of membership stuff. I think about like I was in a sorority in college and there's some initiation stuff that you gotta do that's a little weird. Um and so behavioral control could look like okay, you're only allowed to date certain people. Um, there's like a dress code, right? It can be as simple as that. And it's okay if those, you know, if that type of control aligns with what you want, that's perfectly fine. But if there's a disconnect between what you want and what you feel like you're forced into, that's when it gets kind of weird.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Hello, faithful. That was a weird way to open the show. Uh hey, faithful politics audience, welcome back. I am your political host, Will Wright, joined by your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. What's going on, Josh? Hey, what's going on, Will? Good to see you. And today we have with us Morgan Pearcy, who is a therapist that works with people navigating religious trauma, faith deconstruction, complex trauma, ADHD. There you go, Josh. LGBT identity, anxiety, OCD, and political stress. She specializes in helping individuals who've stepped away from rigid or high-control religious environments and are trying to make a life for themselves once again. And we are just so glad to have her on the show. Welcome to Faithful Politics, Morgan.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Thank you so much. Will and Josh, I'm just so excited to talk to you guys today.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

I'm excited to talk to you too. And and what's weird, and I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna just be a little honest about how I came across sort of like your profession, is I've been sort of like trying to commit myself to spend more time on threads. I don't know why. I just thought that it it seemed like a good social media platform and there's a lot of engagement. And then randomly I came across one of your posts and was reading in and was like looking into sort of like your work and was like, wait, there are people out there that actually help folks with deconstruction and all this other kind of stuff. And I just knew I needed to to have you on the show, but but it is a weird profession though. So I I'm like, how do you how does one get into like or choose to study like this field of psychology?

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Right, yeah. I mean, like most therapists choosing their niches, it's personal life experience. I'm a Gen Z therapist. I grew up in the Christian school movement, and so just kind of seeing how the theology evolved over time, right? From like veggie tails, Bob and Larry, I can be your friend even if you look different than me, turned into Dominion theology type of stuff. And I think like many people, I felt like the evangelical church was gonna have sufficient antibodies against Trumpism. And boy, was I wrong.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Yeah, yeah, that's a really tough thing. And I know that a lot of people have struggled with that over the last 10 years, including myself, of course. And I know that this has been such a trying time for a lot of Christians, especially evangelical. It is the test, I think, of our of our evangelical movement, I guess if you want to call that. Yeah. We haven't passed the test. And um, there's actually a book called The Trump Test. I actually never got the guy on I should have. It was a long time ago. It's called the Trump Test, and he was asking, are we gonna are we gonna pass this test? And I'm pretty sure he's gonna say no at this point. I haven't looked at what he said lately, but but I love that you work with religious trauma, and I would love for you to kind of talk to us about like what what are we talking about when we're talking about religious trauma? We've had people on that have dealt with this issue before, but I'd love for you to remind us of that. And then even like, how is it similar? Like, and almost like for some people, they're gonna be like, religious trauma, like what? That that's like that sounds silly. Like, you know, grow up and get, you know, all that stuff. Like, let's get tough. What are we talking about, religious trauma? But obviously, it's very, very real and very, very powerful and profound in its effects. Could you talk to us a little bit about it? What is it and what are kind of the psychological mechanisms there, as much as you know about it?

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah, 100%. And so religious trauma, I would define it as just a subtype of complex trauma. And it's a lot of psychological abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, just all kind of wrapped up and happening in a community that's supposed to be very safe. And I think that's where a lot of those feelings of betrayal come from. So it's a lot of betrayal trauma as well. And so I would say that religious trauma and deconstruction are like kind of different, but kind of go hand in hand in a way. I would define deconstruction as really analyzing the values and identity that you've been handed and seeing what fits who you want to be and how you see the world now. Um, and so with that comes a lot of analyzing that religious trauma. The the crazy thing that I see a lot that really just baffles my clients is that religious trauma symptoms often don't really hit until they're already out of the environment. Right. It's kind of looking back on how past experiences were and just kind of seeing that in a new light, and maybe seeing it less in the light of, oh, I was not good enough, I failed God, da-da-da. And seeing it more in the light of, wow, there was there's this judgment that was put on me. Forgiveness was not emphasized, grace was not emphasized, right? All of that love, all of those things that were supposed to be the foundation, just were not. And I was supposed to put myself in this little box that doesn't really fit who I am. And so that's why I just I feel like religious trauma and deconstruction, like you can't really talk about one without talking about the other. And you can't really talk about them without talking about grief. And so religious trauma also often is kind of the catalyst into faith deconstruction. There's the religious trauma aspect, and then there's exposure to new information. And once there is some sort of interpersonal trauma, that's just kind of the recipe for deconstruction. And so I think it it includes a lot of grief over the loss of certainty. And so that's why my job interact or overlaps a lot with folks with OCD, right? There's this chasing of the certainty, and maybe we get it for a moment, and then that that certainty is fleeing, and that's really distressing for folks. And so I would really see religious trauma as a lack of autonomy and a lack of agency, and really feeling like religious authority owns the picture of who I am and who I get to be and how I get to live my life. And so this journey is really about a reorganization of identity around who I want to be, and maybe the meaning-making system no longer matches reality, and so our brain has to kind of fill in the gap, and something's gotta give. The theology has to be more psychologically flexible, or the lifestyle has to change, or or something. There's some sort of cognitive restructuring that has to happen to alleviate the cognitive dissonance.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Yeah. I'm I'm curious, like, how do you even go about doing something like this? I mean, and mind you, like, I I know nothing about the field, but I I'm assuming that if somebody came to you in a non-religious trauma um scenario, like, you know, my partner is abusing me, you know, they're telling me that I'm this or that. It's pretty easy to be like, get out of that environment. You're not this or that, you know, you're you're a human being, blah, blah, blah. But like in a religious trauma situation, I can imagine, you know, my pastor told me God wanted me to do X, Y, or Z, you know? Yeah. And like, how do you how do you sort of like take hold of that and not minimize, I don't know, God or or or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Yeah, that's hard because therapy is very different from biblical counseling. And I have to remind folks of that all the time. I have folks reach out all the time wanting biblical counseling, and that's just not my skill set. Um, and so I gotta, you know, riffer them out or find somebody who does more of a faith-based counseling, like in a church setting or something like that. Therapy is inherently about you and your own autonomy and listening to your own voice. And so that can feel like it kind of conflicts with faith. You know, that that can feel kind of uncomfy. That can feel like you're leaving faith behind. That's why I utilize acceptance and commitment therapy. Love it. It's just I'm just kind of an act purist as far as my therapy modality orientation, all of that. Because it brings in that values aspect, right? And so there's there's six parts of acceptance and commitment therapy that kind of form the foundation of it. But a big part of it is values work and then committed action. So taking committed action in the direction of your values, and I think it can be adapted to really any faith system. So that's where it gets brought in, but it's the client's choice that it's brought in. You know, it is not my place to say, hey, people hurt you, not God. Even though that is that is technically 100% accurate, right? It is it is the systems and is that fake view of God that got really twisted and turned into nationalism or turned into whatever. And so, but that's that's not my place to bring in. It's the client's place to bring in. And so I have an extensive intake form and intake process where they can kind of vocalize that and that might shift over time, and that's okay. I think that faith really has to be your choice, or it's never gonna feel authentic. And that's why so many folks are stuck in this place of deconstruction because it was never really authentically theirs to begin with. And that's that's really sad. There's there's some grief in that. There's that time that's lost that wasn't truly yours, that you were pretending to be somebody that didn't feel like a good fit for you. I love that you brought in the example of like an abusive relationship, because that's often what religious trauma feels like for people is that they're in a narcissistically abusive relationship with God, which is just so heartbreaking, like just beyond heartbreaking. And that's hard when people start to walk away and start to, or just, you know, to kind of take a break or find a different environment or whatever, is that the people in that environment that hurt them are just talking about how great this version of God is all the time, you know? And it's like, well, that that's that's the person that I feel narcissistically abused me. That can be really invalidating. And I think there's a lot of things that people in a church environment say that are completely well-meaning. I mean, completely well-meaning and come from a place of love, but can really either downplay the trauma or spiritually bypass a lot of times, or victim blame. And so that creates really that loss of connection with other people. I think that's the biggest thing that I see in folks who are deconstructing, deconstructing, excuse me, is that loss of social support. That's just the biggest risk factor for other mental health stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

I mean, social death is like like the idea that your group has now rejected you, right? So you have obviously it's even more social death than you know, there's can be more technically about a group of people that have been targeted to be essentially erased socially from like a you know, from from a country or nation or whatever. And so, but like the concept, I guess, bringing over into like all that support system I had, the idea of social death, right? I guess as a strategy that was employed by different authoritarian regimes, was that it would make it so bad that the group they didn't want to be there would leave. So what you you remove all support, all right? So so if you remove support, then it feels like death. And and it and we were talking uh someone recently, and I always forget the names. I'm so bad. Everyone, I've forgotten your name, I apologize. I really do try to remember. But it was a guy, we've had so many people on the podcast. I don't know, can you just give me a break? And but he talked about how the when we're wrong, it it it it activates the same circuits in our brain as death. Like as the fear of death, right? The fear of dying, all this stuff, like the fear of being wrong. It it it it activates these really primal systems within our nervous system that get us going. And in and it's so fascinating to me how much our brain interacts with the spiritual, right? It's gonna be there, and I know that this is something you're dealing with all the time. And I remember this, I remember a book called Our Our Brain on God. And basically the author makes the argument that it doesn't matter what kind of God you believe in, as long as that God is good. And he was making the statement in terms of your psychological health, it doesn't matter. So obviously, he can't make a statement about reality like that, as opposed to God has to be good because I want him to be good. But his idea for psychological health that it doesn't matter what kind of God we believe in, as long as we believe he's good. And if we believe he's bad, it's as bad as like he's he suggested having a surgeon general's warning on on religion that has a vindictive deity within it. And so thinking about that again, all of that we could that's a that's a whole conversation in and of itself. But I'm thinking about the idea of a religious environment, right? And having a strict religious environment, right? And what that does to your brain, right? Because we're talking about this. And and so I grew up in a, I mean, probably like compared, well, here's weird, compared to Will, I was I probably grew up in an environment that was very strict in some ways, but he from what I know of his story, he's told me, he grew up in an environment that was extremely strict in other ways that mine was not. And so, and and that wasn't necessarily a test to religion. I'll let him speak on that one. But my strictness was a test to religion, no doubt. And so if it made mom and dad mad, it made God mad, essentially, is what I thought. But so, but is that how bad is that really, Morgan? I guess that's what I'm getting at. No, no, no doubt it's bad. And I guess where's the threshold? It can be bad, is what I'm saying. But what's just being strict, doctrinally firm, versus psychologically harmful? Is there a threshold there? Does that make sense? I just would love to hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Wait, and also before you answer, keep in mind I will play this clip to his children.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

So yes, do it, please.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

Love it, love it. No, I I think a big aspect of religious trauma is family of origin dynamics. And Josh, I think you just hit the nail on the head with that one, especially in more Southern Baptist type of culture, you know, independent Baptist, those type of environments. Yeah, you really hit the nail on the head there. There's a lot of family dynamics. And I hear a lot about a parent with some sort of cluster B personality disorder. So that's including narcissistic traits, histrionic personality disorder. So like attention seeking. And I don't want to sit and villainize those folks. That, you know, those type of ways of adapting and being in the world has come from their own generational trauma. So we got like, you know, we got layers and layers of stuff going on.

SPEAKER_02 16:25

Trauma, point trauma, point trauma. It's like a nice trauma cake.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yes, yes, 100%. The cycle continues. And so with with parents with those types of traits, sometimes they use theology and God as a weapon. That's also really common in Catholic families. That that's now that's now a weapon, and now it's you're displeasing God. It's not, you know, this beautiful, you're made in the image of God, and that's why you have inherent value. There's more of a focus on, I think about my own background. I grew up with Calvinist influences, and we had to repeat, I think it was Romans 3, no one is good, no not one. And so I had to call myself worthless every single day at school. And, you know, that that passage is beautiful when you continue it, but you gotta think about what is what in the theology is being emphasized, especially for young developing minds. I don't think it was healthy for me in high school to call myself worthless every single day. And so those types of aspects of the theology can kind of get emphasized over others, right? It's it's not our identity is in Christ and that's a beautiful thing. It's our identity is so rooted in Christ that we can't have anything else going on, right? Everything else is so small because everything is about this perfectionism. And and so it really depends on where the emphasis is. So that's that's a big one. So with family dynamics trying to untangle that, there's a lot of guilt and shame, and there's a lot of quiet leaving, a lot of suffering with the doubt and the thoughts and the whatever for so long. And now you can't really tell anybody because now you're in sin for even having these thoughts. I think that was a big thing on my own deconstruction journey, and this is hard because this kind of you know conflicts with a lot of views of scripture. But I sincerely believe that thoughts are thoughts, and I think my idea of being able to sin with your thoughts has become a lot more flexible because of my training, yeah, in stuff like OCD. I see a lot of so we talk about how purity culture impacts women. There are so many resources out there of how that's just awful for women. But I think when purity culture goes too far, it's also really hard for men too, um, especially with men who have anxiety and OCD type of traits. They now feel that being attracted to a woman is lust, right? They take that verse that Jesus is talking about, even if you look at a woman, right? That has been presented to them as attraction equals lust. And so now that's hard for them to go and damage you psychologically at all. Right. Yeah. And it's uh it just it hurts my heart so much. Yeah. And so just just legalism getting out of hand, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:28

It's kind of like when I was like when we were in uh, yeah, when I was in uh high school, and I won't uh just for the sake of being uh clean on this episode, I won't say everything that we used to say in uh in in high school. But basically we used to tell someone that any time they essentially had a sexually impure thought God was uh gonna kill a kitten. And so we that's essentially what we'd say. And so we uh every time, so all these guys are just killing hordes of kittens, and you know, they can just feel guilty about it. The blood is on their hands. Anyway, that's the kind you know, that's the kind of stuff you do when you get into this kind of like a psychological space, I think.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I mean, that that is exactly magical thinking because those things are not related, but you feel like the stakes are pretty high, and now you're responsible that a random kitten out there is dead. And that's gotta weigh on you quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

If an angel doesn't get its wings, a kitten dies.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

I am super glad that we're not like that famous because otherwise there would be like clips upon clips of Josh saying, you know, like kittens dying, and that would that would not be a great, great PR.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

So hey, all all all PR is good, PR driver. That's true.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah. I I am curious, Morgan, about like so religious trauma and spotting it for like faith leaders. I mean, like, like I don't know how much of that actually goes on, like, like in your experience, you know, do faith leaders or pastors, reverends, you know, look amongst their congregation and it's like, oh yeah, that person is struggling because of the church or or whatever like that. Like, are there are there kind of like signs, you know, that pastors could could utilize, you know, when they've got congregants that, you know, could be experiencing religious trauma? Because I think even like you said, like you're not it's not normal or natural for you to be like, oh, there's something wrong in this church. Let me go talk to the elders, you know, and just like dump on them everything that's happening because they're probably gonna get, you know, kicked out or whatever. So so like what what advice would you have for for pastors?

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I would say the big thing is just to look for basic signs like social withdrawal and just, you know, any any sort of mood shift is obviously a sign that there's something going on. I think about just this the basic signs of depression, depression, excuse me, of just loss of, you know, loss of interest in things once enjoyed, all of that kind of stuff when there's a little bit of a shift. I think normalizing mental health therapy and those types of resources outside of the church, just because your church is okay with that does not mean that every congregant that has come to your church thinks that that's okay. They might have been taught something else in some other environment. And so. So that's really hard. Like that puts pastors in a really tough position because you are now trying to undo some of the harm that's been done by another pastor, and that's really tough, especially if you don't know what it is. I think a big one is being able to recognize a moral OCD compulsion. So a lot of the examples I have are maybe more of like a Catholic kind of thing. But I think of the folks that come to confession, you know, every single time it's offered, or in the case of more Protestant environments, like requesting meetings with the pastor to seek reassurance. Any sort of reassurance seeking that seems like it doesn't actually last, doesn't provide that lasting relief, and they got to go seek reassurance again, that's a big telltale sign that there's something going on, that there's a mental health concern that they're thinking is more of a spiritual warfare thing. And I think especially with any sort of anxiety, OCD, OCD can attach to any theme. And so it has a way of kind of attaching to our most deeply held values and just twisting it around and throwing it back in our face. And so these folks who really, really do care about their faith, OCD is gonna latch onto that theme. And so when things get misunderstood as spiritual warfare, and now they're this prayer warrior that's always coming up to the front and they're always praying and they're always volunteering at all of this stuff, that gets praised. And so now what is the church community doing? They're positively reinforcing the compulsion without realizing it. And so really realizing that there is a deeply held faith that's being exercised. But where's that balance of being able to sit in God's grace and also being able to have hobbies outside of the church? Being able to enjoy, right? To go out in nature and enjoy God's creation and maybe enjoy the other things that God has for you and not feeling like you have to do all of these things, that your soul is constantly at risk. I think hell anxiety is a huge one for folks, just absolutely huge. And so I see a lot of behaviors that are trying to prevent that from happening that kind of that that take up a lot of time and take up a lot of space and sometimes can even get in the way of being able to hold down a job, being able to spend time with loved ones. And that's that's where it gets really messy and getting really sad because I am not going to encourage folks to not pray or read the Bible less, you know, if that's what they want to do. But there gets to a point where maybe it feels excessive and it feels like not a choice anymore, if that makes sense. It's more something that has to be done in order to feel safe. And again, that feeling of safety, that feeling of relief does not last in order to feel relief, but that relief never lasts. Yes. And so that's that's kind of a weird one. But I would say, as far as that sort of type of anxiety goes, if somebody feels like, oh my gosh, the littlest thing just happened, like I might have sinned. I don't even know if I sinned, I might have sinned. I encourage people to use what's called the 15-minute rule to wait 15 minutes to talk to God about it. And I know that sounds really weird because now I'm I'm encouraging people to not talk to God as quickly. I know that gets really messy, but when it's a compulsive thing, to wait a little bit, right? Because God's gonna be there whenever you're ready. That just kind of removes the anxiety from the compulsion and that gives yourself time to calm down on your own. As far as stuff outside of all of that OCD anxiety thing, I think I talked about social withdrawal. That's a big one. I would really encourage folks to still have those church relationships, but take them outside of church. Like go go bowling with your church friends, right? Like do something else like that. And that will really deepen the relationship and make it feel a lot more authentic. It's not just like a church friend, it's a friend and you go to the same church, right? That might feel a lot more authentic and a lot deeper. And I think, especially for those folks who are doubting and maybe considering walking away or considering going to a different environment, taking those relationships outside of the context of church, outside of that triggering context, can really make you feel like, okay, you still have that social support, even if you're gonna end up making different decisions in your life. And that's okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

You know, you you mentioned something at the beginning of the interview about some of your clients coming to you like after they've left like the church or or what have you. I I'm curious if if that is like kind of the norm, because it we we we spoke with Stephen Hassan. Hassan Hassan. He wrote the book, The Cult of Trump, and he came from a cult himself and mentioned, you know, his sort of like experience coming out of the cult was when he was hospitalized and he was pulled, he was forcibly pulled out of that that environment, and then he learned he was in a cult. Like, like is that is that kind of a similar sort of scenario, like with how you describe, you know, folks that are you know deconstructing or going through religious trauma, like they tend to come to you after they've left that environment.

SPEAKER_00 27:57

Yeah, I would say it's probably about 80% that are completely done. Like they're they're completely done. They don't want to go back, at least to like a structured religious community type of thing. And so yeah, I love that you brought up Stephen Hassan. I love the bite model because that really helps folks see specific ways that they feel like maybe their church does fit that more structure, you know, that more culty structure. And I know that's kind of hard for faith leaders to hear, but I think it's really important to think about. I would really emphasize that a cult is a sociological structure, right? You can have the wackiest beliefs in the world and not be a cult, and you can have all of the correct doctrine and still be a cult because it's focused on authoritarian control. There's kind of this like spectrum of healthy influence versus authoritarian control. And I will be completely honest, I don't really know where church discipline fits into that. And I don't know what healthy church discipline looks like. That's not my skill set, that's not my training, but there's kind of an opportunity there for faith leaders to think about how much do you want to hold folks accountable and help folks live the life that they want to live while still valuing their agency and autonomy. And I don't have the perfect answer for that. But essentially, yeah, folks will get introduced to the byte model and kind of see aspects of other groups that they feel like fit their church environment. So for any folks who are listening who don't know, BYTE, the BYTE model of authoritarian control stands for behavioral control, informational control, thought control, and emotional control. Behavioral control, I think sometimes can be a really hard one to pinpoint because any organization is gonna have some sort of behavioral control, right? If there's any sort of membership stuff, I think about like I was in a sorority in college and there's some initiation stuff that you gotta do that's a little weird. And so behavioral control could look like, okay, you're only allowed to date certain people. There's like a dress code, right? It can be as simple as that. And it's okay if those, you know, if that type of control aligns with what you want, that's perfectly fine. But if there's a disconnect between what you want and what you feel like you're forced into, that's when it gets kind of weird. Informational control. I think about with all the MAGA stuff going on, there's only certain news stations that are true, and everything else is fake news. There are religions where you can't Google your own denomination. I think about just my own experience growing up with the ESV Bible. I didn't know all of the aspects of how that version of the Bible came to be until I was an adult. And I have, you know, my own feelings about that, just as an example. Thought control. A lot of times people think that that is like a hypnosis woo-woo kind of thing. And I would say that thought control could be repetitive phrases. It could be anytime you bring up a legitimate concern, you're told to pray about it. And so now it's your own thoughts that are suppressing that doubt with authority and that, you know, that questioning, that whatever. And then emotional control. The biz the biggest example I could think of is fear-mongering about hell. That's a big one. I remember growing up, I was told tithing is not necessarily a salvation issue, but you know, so it kind of like starts to go in that where it's okay, money or you could go to hell. Which is hard because you also want to be biblically accurate. But then how do you how do you balance all of that? Yeah, it's it's messy. It's really messy.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

It's extremely messy. And I I just really appreciate you kind of outlining some of that. I mean, it's important because again, all of those things you you it's like you note, you know it's a cult when you get to certain extremes. It's like, but seeing it at on the way, it's like that fallacy of the heap where it's like at what point does it become an actual heap? Or when you take something away, like one grain, it's still there, but then you take another grain. It's like there's this, it's hard to know when that change is made. And do you want to speak on that? I have a qu I I have something, my but it's gonna take us a little bit of a different direction, not too much. But okay. If you want to say anything about that, go ahead now, if you'd like.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

Yeah, I'll talk on that. I think the biggest thing is how does your nervous system feel when you walk into church? And I think for a lot of folks, interesting. Yeah, for for a lot of folks, they were raised in a certain way. Oh, like if you're if you got stage fright.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

No, not stage fright. Oh, okay. Impending dread. And impending dread. We don't need to get into that one. But uh maybe later.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Okay, no, it makes it makes me curious. Yeah, that's funny. Same. So, yeah, how your nervous system feels, or maybe how your nervous system feels around a particular somebody. I don't know where you were going with that, but really how your nervous system feels in a certain environment or in a certain relationship, I think that's that's huge. And I feel for pastors who maybe can't necessarily get out of that situation.

SPEAKER_02 33:29

I hear that. Like, is it fit? I'm I'm not, it's not really that. I was being but I did have a there was a point where that was the case, but anyway, I don't need to get into all that. Gotcha, gotcha. Anxiety, depression, all this about the future, and that flares up sometimes. But I think that's really good. And yeah, can I ask you a question about a law that's coming out that I'd love to get your thoughts on? So George is considering, and actually, like, I think this either past, it was in the Roy's report, so I I can fact check that or whatever, we can put a link in there, or or people just go Google it, right? So but the that it's gonna treat sexual relationships between clergy and congregants as a crime, like at the same time as like a uh counselor or the or uh or a coach or a teacher or something like that as a as a crime. And so I'm really interested from a therapist's perspective, like they and it can be pretty stiff penalties for the crime. So the whole idea is that it's an improper use of power and it's spiritual abuse. Well, then that actually comes into sexual abuse, like physical, but it's like even when there's consent, I'm not talking about minors, that's clear case, right? I'm saying that even when there's consent, right, there is of adults. So I guess there is a a situation where there is a a student who is attending a like a local Bible college and then got into a sexual relationship with a pastor and wanted to like bring criminal charges, but had no like no pathway in the law. And so this kind of I think brought about this impetus to pass this law. I think it the actual law I did look it up. It's SB 542 in Georgia, and so yeah, so they're trying that they're bringing that out. So I'm just wondering, what do you think about that? Are the dynamics the same? Is it like I'm just wondering, like, I don't know. I I'm I mean, obviously it's inappropriate for a pastor to use his power or her power in any way that's like gonna hurt someone else. But I just yeah, I'm wondering what you think about that from that, from your perspective and your expertise in this.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Yeah, I love that you brought this up. I did not know that this was a thing. Initial thoughts off the top of my head, I love that you brought up uh minors. I mean, that's should be clear-cut. I also hear of a lot of situations where a youth pastor and a former student get engaged like two weeks after she turns 18. So there was obviously some grooming going on, let's be real. Right? Hey, they're in love. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think I like that you brought up both sides because yeah, it's like it's like a yes and. My answer is gonna be like a yes and. I do think that there is clearly an opportunity for a spiritual abuse of power. I see a lot of ways that that could go really wrong, especially if the pastor has any sort of narcissistic tendencies and there's gaslighting and there's spiritual bypassing, and there's all all of the, you know, again, using spirituality as a weapon. But I think there's a difference between my own personal opinion that, whoa, that is super likely, and whether or not I believe that should be legal, if that makes sense. Maybe that's not the best way to have a relationship. But as far as legality, I think I think that people deserve to be able to consent to be in those types of relationships if they want to be. And maybe they're being coerced into it, but they should they should be allowed to, and obviously they should be allowed to get the resources to leave, but they deserve autonomy too. They deserve that choice. And so, yes, maybe they're making that choice because they've been coerced, but legally they're an adult and they can consent. So I would probably have to lean on that side overall.

SPEAKER_02 37:33

That's interesting. What do you think, Will? I'm interested in you, if you have any thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

I I have thoughts. I have lots of thoughts on this. I don't have any thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

You know, I do I do think that there is kind of a woeful at times, though, sense of like, like I was even just talking to Will. Like, there's a wo I think pastors can be woefully under trained and under, uh, I don't know, maybe I guess under trained to deal with some of the situations, especially psychological situations you're talking about, where spirituality and mental health are very, very close, and trying to parse them out is tough.

SPEAKER_03 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

And trying because obviously you you don't want to say your spirituality is disconnected from your mental health because that's simply not true. And yet, how do we like how does a spiritual diagnosis, prayer, like what what tools does a pastor have to help versus a psychiatrist or or a counselor, someone trained? And like, I do think there is a there's a lack there, a gap that is important because a lot of pastors exercise a lot of power over people and and influence a disproportionate amount of influence compared to other people in their life, even someone's boss, right? And so I but that is a voluntary relationship, right? I guess in every sense, uh it's tough.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah, it it is tough. It is tough, and it's yeah, and that's where I get caught up in the difference between what I think is a good idea and what people should legally be allowed to do. I think I always err on the side of, you know, my opinions are my opinions. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

I am curious though about the LGBTQ issues. I mean, and maybe even specifically as it as it pertains to Kansas. So Kansas just passed a law that revokes like IDs, enacts bathroom rules. I am fairly convinced that if not for religion, people you know in the LGBTQ community probably wouldn't be harassed as much as as they are. Yes. And I I'd love to just kind of get get your get your thoughts about like like what what is sort of all of our collective religious activity doing to the mental health of of LGBTQ folks?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

Yeah. I love that question. The first thing that comes up to mind or come comes up to yeah, comes up for me, is Babylon B. I'm sure you guys have heard of Babylon B, the like the Christian version of the onion. They have a video about the label exvangelical, and they technically have all of the content right. Like all of the points that they bring up are are technically correct, right? There's concerns about colonialism, there's concerns about racism, there's concerns about the treatment of women, there's concerns about the treatment of LGBTQ. Now, they're very passive-aggressive in the way that they make fun of the ex-vangelicals, but whatever. And I think a lot of it comes from not necessarily the doctrine, but like how much it's emphasized. Um, I think about my own experience in the Christian school movement. And when gay marriage got legalized, it was the summer before my senior year of high school. I'm a young therapist. It was the summer before my senior year of high school, and all of us seniors and school leadership had a meeting because we were a part of this, you know, biblical leadership program. And man, were people kind of been out of shape. The adults in the community felt like that threatened their own marriage. And so I'm thinking, like, okay, is your husband secretly gay? Like, why does this affect you? And they decided at that meeting that our chapel services were now going to be about social and political issues. And so the plan at that meeting was for the first chapel to be about the gospel, the next four to be about homosexuality, and the next eight to be about abortion. They ended up not coming up with enough content about abortion to fill up all eight, I don't think. But just that overemphasis, right? And this idea that, oh my gosh, we gotta just, we gotta correct everything. And that's when people went into crisis mode of like, we gotta take America back for Christ and we gotta, you know, we gotta overturn this, we gotta whatever, whatever. And it gets to a point where, okay, back to how does it affect you? Like other people are able to own property with the person that they choose. How does that affect you? I mean, they're they're adopting disabled kids. Why, why are you why is that why are you mad about that? Right? This kid who has zero moms and zero dads now has two dads or two moms and and has parents with disposable income to cover all of the medical expenses and everything that they need. And so I think there's this perception that there's a lot of picking and choosing. I think, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of there's the perception that there's a lot of picking and choosing. And so a personal pet peeve of mine is when folks from conservative environments are like, oh, well, you're picking and choosing what you want to follow. And it's like, well, I mean, we kind of all are. It's an ancient document. We're trying to figure out what's a poem, what's metaphorical. You know, the conservative purity culture people ain't touching the book of Solomon, Song of Solomon, excuse me. You know, there there's just there's always gonna be some sort of us sifting through what's literal and what's not and what's more important than other stuff. And so it's messy. And I know I've I've said that for like every single question, but I think a lot of it is just harping on it so much that it constantly has to come up. And you think about the frequency that it's in the Bible versus the frequency that it makes its way into sermons, and there's that disconnect there. And there's that, there's that disconnect of Jesus is saying, Okay, blessed are the poor. This is our priority right now, right? This needs to be our priority, and that's not the church's priority. And the church wants to use political systems to take away food stamps and take away free lunch programs and stuff like that. And so it's really just proportionally, it's weird.

SPEAKER_01 44:01

Well with with LGBTQ folks that that are also Christians, like what's the what's the dynamic there? I mean, I mean, Christians, kind of big C Christians, have always wanted to sort of like limit. Who can be part of the group, right? So it's either women or flax or it's, you know, things like merit, whatever. Like it's it's they always wanna wanna wanna wanna keep a monopoly on who can be in the in-group. And I'm and I'm curious, like, if you're an LGBTQ believer, I mean, number one, God bless you, you know, like but but two, like, like how how are they kind of just working through, you know, like like you obviously don't, you know, don't have to give us any insight in your conversations you're having, but just you know, probably speaking, like like how how are they kind of navigating the the the spiritual side of of their faith and an entire network of people that are trying to tell them that they should not or could not be Christians?

SPEAKER_00 44:58

Yeah, 100%. I think a big one is the Love Winds book. I mean, I think that's a super basic book, but that's kind of the mindset, and that's kind of where it starts. I think a big one is the passages that kind of link homosexuality to end times, right? I don't remember the specific passage or where to find it. I would I would have to Google it. But hopefully y'all know what I'm talking about. The idea is that it's it taken to be interpreted as more of like a lust kind of thing versus a long-term same-sex committed relationship. And so that's kind of where we get into the psychological flexibility and different interpretations of scripture and whatever. And I think there's a lot of emphasis on the fact that Jesus did not say anything about homosexuality. That helps folks find a lot of comfort in kind of reconciling these things because there is a lot of cognitive dissonance if if you're told, you know, just all of this stuff, Leviticus, maybe all this. I you guys would probably know more than me about homosexuality, trying to like reconcile that with where they're at now. And I think a lot of it comes from this place of okay, God made me good the way that I am. It comes from this rejection of the more like extreme Calvinist, you're born totally depraved, you're inherently bad, you inherently deserve hell, all of that. That theology kind of gets dismissed and it gets replaced with this idea that, okay, God made me in the image of God, I am the way that I am, God chose me to be this way, and and so this is just who I who I am fundamentally. And so just the idea of LGBTQ and the doctrine of original sin, just kind of that's that's something that just kind of clashes a little bit and needs to be reconciled. And then I think another big one that I see is like Gen Z type of young adults who identify as LGBTQ and identify as asexual and polyamorous. And I know that's an uncomfortable one to talk about in Christian spaces, but for them, they're like, okay, in this situation, how is there sexual immorality? I'm getting more connection and more more people who love me. And so that the lust type of theology stuff doesn't really hit them as hard because that just doesn't completely fit for them. So I see a lot of that kind of stuff happening to. I know I kind of wandered away from your question. I think it comes from a place of just finding a different community that just has different emphasis. And maybe there will always be a little bit of cognitive dissonance for some of those folks. I think a lot of religious indoctrination runs really deep. I mean, it it runs really deep and you feel it in your nervous system, and those are the voices in your head that keep telling you you're bad, you're sinful, you're worthless. And so a lot of my therapy approach is instead of getting you to not think those things, because those thoughts, you know, bad thoughts pop in there, like that happens. To be able to talk back to them in a way that takes away their emotional power, to be able to say, meh, maybe, maybe I am still living in sin, but I'm gonna trust in God's forgiveness. Meh, you know, maybe I am not doing things the right way, but I'm doing the best with the information that I have. And so really taking away the emotional power from that shame.

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Yeah, that's that's super interesting. I have so many thoughts when it comes to that because I I won't be able to get to them, I don't think.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Because I gotta ask questions. But like, you know, when I'm thinking about I I've I've had uh quite a journey when it's come to L like the LGBTQ community in my own personal theology and in my own personal Yeah, just kind of uh like how I need as a pastor, as a thinker, as a as a theologian, I have to think through this and take people's experiences very seriously. Take the the modern science very seriously, as seriously as I can. Take the take the no the principles of of the ancient text. It is an ancient text, there's no doubt about it, there's no way to get around that. Yeah. Yet there's there are many ancient texts that we learn from, right? And so, and is this and the question for many people, right, for Christians, is this ancient text different than other ancient texts? And if so, how so? And does it carry, what kind of weight does it carry in our lives today? And those are questions that anyone who's saying a Christian, which is like following Jesus, this guy who lived 2,000 years ago, was executed by Rome and apparently raised from the dead. That's what his followers thought, that's what they said, that's what they preached, that's what we heard, and then somehow either we were born into it, convinced of it that way. But everyone, to an earlier point that we made, everyone needs an adult experience of like with God, I think, because your childhood experience with God isn't going to carry you through the complexities of faith when you when when you realize, oh wait, there are a lot of people that don't think Moses wrote the Pentateuch. Oh wait, people don't think the same thing, even Christians about inerrancy that I do. Oh, wait. Seems like evolution makes a lot of sense in all the things they're saying, and yet I've been taught that it has to be six days or I'm going to hell my whole life, which I don't think, right? But what I'm saying though is that we have all these psychological categories that we carry that really aren't about truth. They're about safety, they're about social belonging. And we care way more about social belonging than we do about truth. Let's just be honest. We don't care about truth that much. We care about if people accept us and we belong to a group, every single one of us. And so fighting against that, being a critical thinker is hard for that very reason. That's the exact reason it is. Because you're gonna put yourself in a position where your group doesn't like what you're saying if you're thinking critically.

unknown 51:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Because you're gonna come to a place where you guys are involved in groupthink right now. You guys are doing something that doesn't make sense. Anyway, I'm kind of rambling here, but I've I've gone through a transformation in all this, and I'm still theologically, I have not become convinced of the arguments that have been made on the side of like the pro, I guess you would say the pro-LGBTQ side of it. I, you know, you've got affirming versus non-affirming. There's different ways of saying it. We've had different people come on and talk about it. So I guess theologically, I would fall in the non-affirming view. I know that that upsets people sometimes or hurts people's feelings. It's nothing to do with you, everything to do with my sense of integrity, truth, and what I believe the scriptures say. But thinking about, we have to live, and this is where I've wrestled with, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, because we have to live in a pluralistic society. It doesn't matter what it was in 1950, we're not in 1950. We're in 2000, it's February 27, 2026. Right? So I don't really care what it was like in 1950, to be honest with you, or 1850 for that matter, except just to understand what it was like so we never go back to the things that we don't want from there. And so I'm we have to live in a pluralistic society, which means we have to let other people live their lives. Yeah. And I'm having a harder time finding arguments that can say an LGBTQ person say wouldn't like shouldn't be able to do whatever it is in their life with another consenting adult, even be able to adopt children and things like that. And I know that's going to be controversial. I I just theologically, biblically, sure, I can find all sorts of reasons why as a Christian I wouldn't I would have the conviction about that. Pluralistic society, I don't the arguments get tougher to say that we should remove rights from people. And I think that if we remove rights, basic rights, certainly basic rights, from any group of people, that is bad for every group of people when we do that. And so yeah, I don't know. Those are just some of my responses. I guess there's many you brought up such great ideas. Like I want to go back and kind of make a list of them because I know I seriously, because this is the kind of stuff I'm trying to think through and and work through. But yeah, I don't know if you have any response to anything I've said. I'd love to hear your thoughts on on that.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Josh, I absolutely loved what you shared, and I loved how you articulated it, right? There's a difference between this is my faith, this is my truth, this is my relationship with God, this is what I'm going to do, and what other people are allowed to do. And that is just kind of the foundation of everything that aggravates me about Dominion theology. Um Dominion theology sucks.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

I'm just gonna say it. It's awful, it's horrible.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Yes, yeah, go ahead. No, it's it's the worst. Yes, no, I appreciate that. And so I I love that perspective. And I think there's an opportunity for the church to really come in and be a light in that way by explaining really it's it's boundaries, it's healthy boundaries, it's a different thing, right? A boundary is here's what I'm going to do, right? I think about okay, if you start screaming at me, I'm going to hang up the phone. That's a boundary, right? A boundary is not here's what you are allowed and not allowed to do, which I realize in your role as a pastor, that's kind of funky because people are asking that from you. And but just, you know, just talking about just people in general. Okay, cool. Okay, cool. And so that's a big one. And I think there's an opportunity for pastors who do hold that traditional model of marriage to have sermons that maybe instead of a sermon that's like, hey, here's why I believe that LGBT is wrong, have a sermon about, hey, here's the boundaries and here's how we can love on these people, and here's how we can respect these people's rights. Everybody has First Amendment rights, right? Everybody has the right to practice their own religion. And so if their religion involves or their, you know, philosophy or whatever, I'm sure they would not label it as a religion, but if their religion allows for LGBTQ, I I see an opportunity for conservative pastors like yourself who have a heart for everybody to have more of those conversations about okay, here's how we can biblically, as conservatives, respect other people's First Amendment rights. Because now there's less of a tug of war and people don't feel like they have to dig their heels in as much. And I think that's that's a big one that I see. I mean, really, with you know, all sorts of extremist views. But when people get challenged, they're digging their heels in because it's not really in a way that is loving and inviting of conversation and all of that kind of stuff and inviting of critical thinking. Everybody feels like, especially on social media, especially on the internet, that they have to defend their worldview. And so that's not really gonna lead to anybody being able to draw closer to one another. That's just really it's triggering a survival response. Because I and I think we had one of you had said something like this earlier. But when people feel like their beliefs are being threatened, it's like that's like a deep, deep, deep survival abandonment response. That's not really their their nervous system is not really in a place where they can listen and kind of bridge the gap.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

They're not dealing with the rational logic, yeah. That's not what you're dealing with at that point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

Exactly, exactly. And so I just see an opportunity for people to come in and kind of bridge the gap and to kind of have those conversations about okay, what does the Bible say about boundaries? So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

Yes. And you know, even this, so when, and I am gonna approach this in my in in our church, because we're going into Genesis at River City Underground, that's the church I I pastor, and we're going into Genesis and we're gonna have to talk about image, Genesis 1, Genesis 2 has a marriage passage, right? So, so it's in there, and I'm gonna bring what I think, and I'm gonna bring what other people think. And I'm gonna tell them why I think it. And um, but I can't, and and it's not a requirement. See, it's not a requirement to think how I think and believe what I believe to come to my church. And I don't think that people need like we should not have requirements like that, I think. Like, I understand as people grow in leadership and influence, boundaries are more important. Yeah, and those are conversations that have to be had, but anyone can come. I mean, is it really that? Like, it's not that complicated, dude. I don't think it is. Jesus literally hung out with anyone and rejected the religious elite most. And so I think that should really speak to us all. Morgan, thank you for coming on. I'm not gonna get on another, you know, preaching about Thanks for coming on. How can people connect to you, what you're doing? I'm sure we'll have you on again to come back and talk more about this stuff, but how can people uh connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Yeah, well, first of all, Will and Josh, thank you so much for having me on, and I would absolutely love to come on again. This was awesome. So folks can find me. The easiest way to find all of my resources is to go to www.morganpiercy.com. And then for my private practice, deconstruction counseling, that website is www.deconstructionkc.com. And then deconstruction kc is also my handle on most social media platforms. Um, so even if it's a more niche one, just see if I'm on there. I might be.

SPEAKER_02 59:14

Awesome. Well, Morgan, thanks so much for being on the program, man. It's been a real pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Yeah, thanks, guys.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

Absolutely. And to our viewers, guys, we'll put all these links in the description and show notes. So go check it out. Make sure you're checking out. If you have someone dealing with deconstruction, point them to these resources. We also have other episodes here that you can check out on Faithful Politics Podcast. And until next time, guys, keep your conversations at right or left, but up