Leigh Larson on Christian Nationalism in the U.S. Military Chaplaincy

How is Christian nationalism showing up inside the U.S. military chaplaincy, and why does it matter for religious freedom?

In this episode, Will talks with Leigh Larson, a theologian, Air Force veteran, public scholar, and founder of Follow the Leighder. Larson’s research focuses on Christian nationalism in U.S. military chaplaincy, giving her both personal experience and academic grounding for this conversation.

Military chaplains serve at one of the most complicated intersections of church and state. They are religious leaders inside a government institution, but their job is supposed to protect the spiritual care of every service member, including people of different faiths and no faith at all.

Larson explains how chaplains are trained, why endorsing bodies and faith codes matter, and what happens when spiritual care shifts toward proselytizing or political theology. The conversation covers religious pluralism, Wiccan and humanist recognition, Cold War civil religion, post-9/11 evangelical influence, and the growing concern over Christian nationalism inside military culture. 

Relevant Links & Resources

Follow the Leighder: https://www.followtheleighder.com/
Follow the Leighder Substack: https://followtheleighder.substack.com/

Guest Bio

Leigh Larson is a theologian, veteran, and public scholar, and the creator and host of Follow the Leighder, a multi-platform society and culture brand reaching 245K+ followers across five platforms.

She holds a Master of Theological Studies from Phillips Theological Seminary, where her thesis examined Christian Nationalism in US military chaplaincy through original research including 22 interview subjects and a 116-response survey. She is a 2025–2026 Disciples of Christ HELM Global Theological Fellow (one of nine selected nationally) and a 2025 Stone-Campbell Journal Graduate Essay Finalist. During her first year of seminary, she served in the United States Air Force Reserve as a Chaplain Candidate and Second Lieutenant. She holds a BA in International Relations from the University of Texas at Austin, where she was both a Presidential Scholar and Jefferson Scholar.

When she is not recording or writing, Leigh is somewhere on the road with her dog, Professor Huckleberry.

Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091

Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Religious freedom or religious pluralism really is the whole that is the cog and the machine that makes all of this work. And it and as a historian, America's history is very ugly. The founding fathers are very controversial. But when we talk about this specific line of logic, even though it was implemented by white, rich, patriarchal, aristocrat slave owners, and rapist racists, these that line of thinking is what allowed Jews to be able to vote very early on, Catholics to be able to vote very on, like women, and and then as it expanded, that line of logic has been what has allowed so much of our civil rights to come to fruition.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Hey, welcome back, faithful politics listeners and watchers. I'm your political host, Will Wright, and your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. He is not here today. Said something about saving Christianity for all mankind or something. So he'll be back next time. But instead, we have with us Lee Larson. She is a historian, theologian, veteran, public scholar, all the things, has a platform called Follow the Leader, which has a well, which reaches about 245,000 people, which is a lot more than we do, uh, and holds a Master of Theological Studies from Phillips Theological Seminary, where her thesis examined Christian nationalism and US military chaplaincy. And she's got a whole bunch of reward awards here. I'm not going to read them all. She's very, very smart and intelligent. So I'm just going to stop there and welcome her to the show and then ask her why she got into what she's doing. So welcome to the show, Lee.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Oh, howdy, Will, and and howdy to Will's followers and listeners. Howdy, folks. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Yeah, glad to have you. So so tell us like your CV, your life, your career, your field path is a like very, very complete bag of a whole bunch of different things. And it seems like you've landed finally kind of on the chaplaincy and Christian nationalism topic, which is really, really interesting to me. But I'd love to just learn a little bit more about who is Lee Larson and kind of what what what brought you to the place you're at today?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Absolutely. Well, I I am from Fort Worth, Texas. I was actually born in Houston, but raised in Fort Worth, Texas. I my family initially, my mother, we started the Episcopal Church in Houston at St. John's Lynn Divine. We moved up to Fort Worth, and that diocese in Fort Worth was a bit more conservative and didn't want to recognize her divorced. So she left the Episcopal Church in Fort Worth at least, switched to disciples of Christ, which is a totally kind of different experience. It's non-credal, non-denominational, uh, sorry, non-credal, very much, I want to say like more like on the low or casual side versus the Episcopal High Church and just a different experience. But at also it was right across from TCU in Fort Worth, Texas. So I was I had a queer youth pastor, I had an army reservist youth pastor, I saw female head pastors and black choir directors. Like I it was it was a really cool, saw a lot of different faces and a lot of leadership positions growing up. And that connection with my army reservist youth pastor was critical. And that pastor, youth pastor in particular, was really critical when I went through, or my friend group, we all went through a suicide in middle school. And I got to see like this youth pastor like come in and be there for a group of middle school kids and then like about face go out and serve the country, you know, serve our country every you know, once a month. And I was really inspired by that. I went on to University of Texas at Austin, and I wasn't necessarily inspired to go into ministry or theology at that point, but I just knew how important theology was to humanness. Like I was like, whoa, like clearly theology played a huge role in a bunch of middle schoolers going through a very adult math like life concept, and then obviously it plays a huge role in the military, which I would never have thought like without probably seeing it up close, and particularly because I was more in the liberal or progressive churches, and we'll touch on this later in the in the hopefully in this conversation, but uh Protestant mainline or like even like progressive or quote left-leaning, however you want to put those words now, really haven't been too supportive of military chaplaincy since Vietnam. They've they haven't, you know, denounced it necessarily. They've like denounced war, they've denounced American policies, but military they just but since Vietnam War, they just, if you were to go into chaplaincy on this side of the quote political aisle in the churches, it would have been hospital, prison. Something not military, because military is war is just a complex theological thing to talk about as a chaplain. And um so I I'm sorry, I went down a tangent, but my point being that was just kind of the first time that I saw how important theology was to people. But I was also very much interested in justice and was kind of leaning more towards like the law side. Like I thought I was gonna go into international humanitarian or international law. I did, I my majored in international relations as an undergrad at University of Texas. I also pursued very much interested in being I love the outdoors. And I looked into environmental science specifically in Africa, looking at grassroots movements there, got to spend six weeks in Botswana studying sustainable wildlife, tourism efforts, and being around, again, like outdoor public lands type folks.

SPEAKER_00 6:01

And eventually sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but but uh according to your, I believe I was on Instagram, like did you just recently take a training on from the National Park Service? Yeah.

unknown 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:15

Well, yeah, like it was just like a four-day, 32-hour training. And and yeah, I loved it. And again, I love all the park rangers I've come across. I just love being outdoors. But because of that, I also got to meet Peace Corps volunteers because I thought I was going to go into Peace Corps. And and this all kind of ties into I wanted to do public service, civic service for two years at least. I also had the reserve youth pastor in my background. But I had I'd done some international travel. I saw other countries that had civic service as mandated. I don't think it should be mandated, but I saw the benefit to like, you know, serving your country for two years in some capacity. Your government, your military like, and I thought I was gonna go Peace Corps, but actually it was meeting some of the Peace Corps people abroad. They were like, just go into the military, it pays more. And like and I I I like wrestled with that too. I like talked to quite a number of people, and actually I eventually kind of went back to it, it did come down to pragmatics and student loans. And and that plays a huge role when I talk about a lot of folks do not join the military because they're joining it for imperial purposes. It really is pragmatic economic. And and or for for a lot anyway, so that's how I got into at least calling into the military and in that way. As I started building that, I reconnected with a high school boyfriend. I reshared the story too that he went into Air Force Special Ops, his family was had stepped out of special ops as well. And I was already doing internships with youth ministry and and all sorts of stuff. So it was very much a natural like go into chaplaincy. We need a great chap. Here's what we need in chaplains. And I'm being told by a dude multiple deployments, special ops, like things he saw that were good and bad by chaplains he's come across. And he was like, We just need chaplains that can tolerate an open conversation and just can just hold a lot of space. I have too many chaplains that just want to shove a Bible, a verse, some story, like, and I'm not that's the last thing I want to take on when I've experienced something like combat. And it was just really formative. So I go into the chaplain core. In fact, part of my studying going into the chaplain core was a lot of diverse faiths, not because I was gonna perform any rituals or rites or anything, but like if someone came, did I have a general idea of your vocab or you know, just generally speaking, so that I could assist and help you? And that's eventually went into the chaplain core, and it was not this pluralistic experience. I thought it was gonna be within the chaplaincy. Like the ministry was beautiful, like the though that was fantastic. It was more internal bureaucrat stuff that I became keen on. Other female chaplain candidates that served with me. We've we've reconnected over the years, some queer trans, just and anyway. At some point, I know this is sometimes chatting folks, but at some point I but uh I guess somewhere in there, I you know, COVID makes all the years, but somewhere around COVID, like I was just done with organized religion, which was wild because when people talk about deconstructing, I never really deconstructed theology. Like that wasn't that largely stayed. I mean, it expanded because I'm in seminary and I'm reading and I'm still very a faithful person. That's always changing, growing. But I mean, like, I didn't come from one side of the spectrum and go the other way. It was just I became completely disillusioned with institutional control of who gets to say God is, like from both the military chaplaincy to organized religion. And it wasn't a hate. It was not, it was almost like a deep understanding that churches and institutions like the military serve a purpose. They have to do what they're doing. You have to have boundaries of some capacity. But for me, and for what I was trying to do, I just couldn't stay entrenched or enmeshed with an institution. Even though I still support, I'm doing some, I do contract work with institution. It's not, again, it's not a hate. It's just more of like I think the church is I think we're just reckoning a lot with spirituality in the church. And I think a lot of us are right now. It's not just it's so that kind of catches you up at one point. Or so yes, I left the the church, I left organized religion again, stayed very spiritual state. I just like and and and I left my master's midway through. And so about a few years ago, I was like, I need to go finish that for me. And just like it bothers me. Went back and had a whole different experience with it, as you do when you go back a different few different years, you know, different years later and a different person, got deeply into women's history and indigenous women's history in the United States under United States policy, like how Christian policy, Christian American policy impacted women and indigenous folks throughout American history, and also just particularly because I am out west. I'm in Montana for folks who were like, what are and that also was like got you know reconnected with all the military folks. We have 10% of our population and is military affiliated here, probably even more like 20, and started sharing a lot of stories, started hearing a lot of trends, started hearing that I wasn't the only and I was talking about what I experienced in the chaplaincy, but now I'm hearing it from folks, you know, that were supposed to be the ones helped and they weren't. And I was like, okay, all right. So this is not personal, this is not a unique. I was like, I'm gonna research this. And so, like I said, once I started researching and going down the rabbit hole, I mean, your audience is very familiar with what's going on. And that's when I was like, oh, this is very well organized. And here we are.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

That is uh I mean, I mean, what one thing that that stands out in your story is almost similar to like just our own story, just for the podcast and just others that are kind of in this space, is that number one in society, there are not enough religion reporters, like like full stop. Like they're like most major networks don't even have a religion reporter, right? And and folks like yourself that have this very kind of unique like expertise are finding things, you know, that like the New York Times should be finding, you know, like like when when when they revise like the religion codes and stuff and then and the chaplain core, like what which which which I'm gonna ask you about here in a minute. Like, like, like I found out about that just for reading your Instagram, to be honest. Like, and and then the story just came out just recently. I don't know if they gave any credit or not, but uh but but it it it really just kind of just drives home the the point that you know folks like you and and others, you know, are doing really, really important work that are kind of exposing some things that the public could you know have an interest in. So so I'm gonna ask you about about the chaplain core. I'm former military myself. Yeah, thanks. And and uh thank you for your service. Why do we still say that actually? It's weird, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Like I at this point, like it's all it's weird. I'm on the other side of it that it's like at first I was like, don't say, but there I've met so many people that are messed up because of the military that I'm like, thank you for that. But I'm not gonna say thank you for your suffering. Like yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah, so now I'm just like, thank you for what we've you've given up. Like you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

It's like I'm on a a lot of my old military buddies run a run a group chat. Um, and so I won't disclose too much because just even announcing the disclosure that there is a group chat of of old infantry guys, some that some in the group are you know like former special forces like on Veterans Day, sometimes we'll say, you know, thank you for your service to each other. Just just kind of as a as a bit of you know, tongue-in-cheek, like yeah, this is kind of what you know, not non-veterans say to veterans. But anyways, when when I when I joined the military, this is back in shortly after 9-11, it's probably like January 2002 or something like that. I went into the service, met a whole bunch of people. Your your characterization of not everybody goes into the military for patriotic reasons. Like I served with folks that were like court-ordered in, you know, folks that like were about to be homeless, you know, and and it's like, you know, we we get deployed over to Iraq, we're not thinking we're doing this for America, you know. We're we're we're over there and we're kicking down doors and we're like, we're doing this for each other because we don't want anybody to get hurt, you know. But we did have a chaplain that was attached to us there. Real nice guys, black dude, I forgot his name, but I've got a photo of him with the book I was reading at the time because I bought a book. You remember those like dummy's guide to whatever? Like I bought one of those, it's yellow cover, like the dummy's guide to the Bible. And I was reading that because I legitimately thought when I went to Iraq I was going to die. And I'm like, I gotta figure this out. And I didn't want to read the Bible. So so I I bought the the dummy's guide to the Bible. Um, I just need the cliff notes, you know, like what are the important parts? And and uh there's a photo of my chaplain holding the book because I just thought it would be the funniest thing, but but but he wasn't he was a very important person to our unit, at least like just morally, he was very upbeat, and he seemed like he was torn from a different cloth. So I'm curious, like like like walk us through how does someone actually become a chaplain? And like, and and do they do they get to pick like the religion that they're a chaplain for? Or yeah, I'm just I'm just really intrigued by it.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Well, great question. And and that is a hilarious story. I think that's funny. I I I probably would have done the same. That is so funny. If you would come into me and asked that, I would have been like, here's this book. Maybe I'll give you the even shorter one. I'll give you the summary of each chapter on that one. But uh no. So as far as becoming a chaplain, you have to go through and get an MDiv and be endorsed by a recognized, a DOD, recognized endorser. They are the ones that are pretty much gonna handle your education and your theology. The this is the way that the military, the state, the government separates itself from any sort of theological formation. Like we are just here, like if you, your people have educated and trained in your approval, we'll accept them, and we're just gonna put them right into commissioned officer training, and then they'll go through chaplain training. If they're in seminary, which is what I was, if they're in seminary, they'll go through chaplain candidate training, which is you know, you just stay in as sort of like this weird gray role while you're in seminary, and then you become a full chaplain after you graduate and become ordained. So those are the two paths. The recent that chaplain candidate program I just talked about, that is something that's started in the last 10, 15 years. I don't want to say that, but really it's a it's a response. It used to be that the military would outright pay for seminary for their chaplains, and then those chaplains were beholden to the military, and you now you're in the service. But then what happened if a chaplain had a crisis of faith and now you've got this chaplain? It was a mess. And now they were like, well, we're not gonna pay for anything while you're in seminary, but once you become a full chaplain, we'll give you this bonus, we'll give you sort of this like back pay or you know, whatever. But and so that was really cool for both sides because that meant I could serve without any sort of, you know, what if this doesn't work out for me? Which it didn't because I and and then on the other side, you know, for them, no harm, no foul. They weren't committed, the taxpayer wasn't committed to anything long term. So it was a fantastic program on the Air Force side. I can't speak to what it is for for others. I can tell you again, I went through commissioned officer training, so we do not receive weapons training. We are also not command and control. So chaplains cannot pick up a weapon. If we do, we become combatant, but we are non-combatant. That is definitely since the 1940s. We do have some older American Revolution stories with chaplains running around with muskets and you know, the cross and this very iconic colonial sort of image. But really, since World War II, a lot of Geneva codes chaplains and medics are kind of considered offhands. I think medics can carry weapons, but anyway, the point being, so my chaplain's training again, commissioned officer training, there was no weapons, again, no command and control. Even if I'm the highest ranking person, a chaplain's the highest ranking, they can't give orders. We're not trained in that. We could get people hurt if we do. Our sole purpose is the spiritual readiness of the force. So I I hope that clears things.

SPEAKER_00 19:43

And I and I I I can't help but think like because I've I've always had this question. You we talk a lot about church and state on this show, and it seems like uh chaplaincy at its core is like the perfect blending of the two. I mean, we are I mean, in nearest I understand American history, you know, there there was a time when like churches were funded by the state, and then that was put to a halt, and and it sort of created this like somewhat of a capitalistic market for like churches to become more boisterous to get more congregants. At least that that's the way it was stated to me, I think, by John Fiat. Don't quote me on that. But but within sort of the American government, like we are paying people, like, like, like here's here's something I always joke with Josh. Like he's he's a full-time pastor, he's got to deal with all the normal pastor stuff, like you know, how you pay the light bills and all that other kind of thing, you know. And and I'm like, wouldn't it be great to just be like a chaplain and not have to worry about like your building or anything like that? It just seems really weird. So, like, how like help help me understand church-state separation kind of through the lens of of being a chaplain.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Yeah, great question. So it might help it to to give some historical context because I also see this uh kind of online and and being shared. So uh George Washington did initiate the chaplain court. It was one of his first things that he did. He felt very strongly that if the we government state were to ask folks to die for their country, they should be provided with spiritual care. I a very simple argument. Madison, James Madison argued against him. That was between the two of them. James Madison and Washington were not in agreement about military chaplains. But Washington won out. I mean, he was a highly respected man, obviously, and and felt very seriously. And at the initially, he had no problem getting pastors because like you said, it was abundant back then, and you had pastors coming out volunteering from town. So it wasn't a pastor problem. What he wanted were people who went through pastors who went through training and saw what the soldiers saw. He didn't want this sort of like Sunday, you know, kind of visiting pastor type thing. The other thing was while George Washington, he was Anglican, he was a very, very wealthy man, very powerful man. He might have been, I know. The more I particularly on this deconstruction, I'm I'm not a deconstruction, but like for for in in knowing that language and that lens, sometimes I look at these founding fathers like, you deconstructing? Was deism your deconstruction? Like I know, right? And and so I don't think George Wan, he wasn't he he probably didn't like organized religion like the rest. None of them were really in favor of the priestly class, much like Jesus Christ was in the gospels that we can talk about. But like there also wasn't he knew that when you have a pastor, if you have someone spiritual in the room, it does impact morale. It does change the dynamics of the room. Just having a pastor, like he doesn't even have to say that person, the pastor doesn't have to say, preach anything. But just having one that's around constantly changes the dynamics. It impacts alcoholism, prostitution, gambling. Also, we're seeing a lot. It's cool to read military sermons over time, chaplain sermons, particularly in light of the ones that Heg Seth is sharing. And I don't I don't know what I'm allowed to say on here, so I don't want to say that. Say anything you want, please. Particularly in light with what Heg Seth is sharing, because we have American chaplains have always invoked God bless our troops, God, I mean, like protect us. That is very that's almost general language. Even as a chaplain, I had uh most people were pretty comfortable with me saying, like, oh holy, please protect and comfort these, and then like walk away. Like those are really generic invocation prayers that aren't claiming anything. They're not claiming anything there except for per protection for you. But there's no gender socio-political large statement when you make those. What's happening in the in the chaplain core when you talk about separation of church and state? Historically, we've always had these very general invocations of God and protection. What is really coming out is this, particularly since 9-11, uh, also Vietnam War. I can talk about that too if you want. Where they really want to put in Jesus' name, literally in the invoke, like when they pray in a mixed group in a military. There's two litmus tests that they're we're kind of seeing over and over. They want a lot of evangelical chaplains are wanting to proselytize more. They're wanting to talk more about everything is in Jesus' name. And then there's also the are your marriage retreat workshops biblical? Are they heteronormative? So you're seeing, and that's like the two ways that they're speaking in code to one another. How biblical are your marriage retreats? Do you pray in Jesus' name? And that is again, we're seeing this over and over. We're also seeing on the ground on the legislative level, a bill was put forth by Texan, I can't remember who it was. I'm drawing a blank. But again, it was to improve protections for chaplains' free speech because they want to be able to evangelize, proselytize, or claim specific socio-political remarks or beliefs or behaviors towards people because it's quote biblical. So it's a really fascinating turn that in the last few decades we're seeing a very much more, it is, it's almost like very chaplain focused. How is the chaplain safe? Is the chaplain protect? The chaplain was always protect, but it was never about you. Like it was just like you were supposed to go into this multi-pluralistic, multi-faith pluralistic environment and just just be there. Just like listen, mitigate the chaos, add a big sliver of morality or light or healing to a very savage place. I mean, it's hell. Like and so but again, their argument, and I wanna because I'm I'm uh studying and researching this, their argument is because it's hell they want to go in and evangelize and proselytize and save. Like I they feel very strongly about their their mission, unfortunately, like you said. Uh separation of church and state. We we we have a First Amendment.

SPEAKER_00 26:28

So Yeah, it it seems really it's really concerning for me because you know, when when you when you read and and we we've been fortunate enough to have Brian Kayler on, he's the president of Word of Way, and he's been he's been writing about sort of like the Department of Defense and their sermons that they have there, Pete Heggseth and his you know associate association with Doug Wilson and the CREC. You know, so so when I when I think of like the chaplains, especially under this department of defense, like it concerns me a little bit because they uh they they have some level of control over you know the the keepers of the the soldiers' you know spiritual well-being. And especially with you know this this administration's I don't know proclivity to implement Christian nationalism throughout every single department, you know, like it it it just doesn't feel right. So so I I'm curious, like like in in what ways like have you seen it, and I know that this kind of goes into your dissertation, it's like in what ways have you kind of seen Christian nationalism mapped into kind of the the chaplain scene?

unknown 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

So I'll start with like my personal direct experience and then I'll zoom way out because I want to kind of show the audience and you how far back this goes too. So again, I as stated, I grew up in a congregation where I saw a lot of different faces, being the face of of God and and spiritual leadership. And that's how I thought I was going into it. I knew how diverse the military was, and I got in and I and I was always like my mom, like we did a lot of ecumenical interface, so that like I was comfortable in in pluralistic environments too, even growing up. So I like I said, the ministry to the airmen was fantastic. I remember distinctly I got pulled over, pulled to the side because I I ministered to a there was a a Wiccan prayer. There was like a Wiccan ceremony that a Wiccan had asked me to go with her. She just wanted to go for the first time. Like she was interested in this faith and she wanted someone to go with her. And and she was a, and so we go, and I sat with her, and anyway, I think towards the end or something, I like recite, I responded in the call and response because the call and response was God of the north, God of the East, God of the South, God of the West, hear our prayer. And that's what I did. And then I got in trouble for for doing that part of the service. Like somehow it got back that I had responded. And I told my chaplain, I the my trainer, uh, I said, I didn't have any room, wiggle room to like talk back. Obviously, it's the military, but they were like, I think it's very uh concerning for your devotion to Christ that you were willing to go with to a Wiccan ceremony and that you did the response. Can you explain yourself? I said, she asked me to go with her. And that one response, sir, that's within my theology that God is the God of all cardinal directions. Like, like, what do you say? Like, I like it was just like a very two-sentence, like, and and and and I just remember him like laying in, and he was a non-denominational chaplain, which is a very vague term and it's hard to nail down because I've met some non-denominational folks that are incredible, right? Right there with me, shoulder to shoulder, and then you got folks like that. So that is the hard thing now, trying to catch folks up who aren't knowledgeable, A, about Christianity is that we are very fractured, and then the fractures are fractured, and everyone for themselves, but no, just kidding. Uh community.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Quick note on that though. What's what's interesting, and and I I'm glad you actually brought up the response to you being in that space, because I think two years ago, I think it's two years, we we interviewed uh Lucian Greaves. And if you don't know who he is, he he's the co-founder of the Satanic Temple. Great guy, super nice, really articulate. But but like when when we booked him, I remember I was telling a lot of my friends, and Josh had telling a lot of his friends, and people were like, How dare you, how dare you bring on you know this person. I'm like, I I don't understand the drama. Like, we're just gonna talk to him, you know. And and it sounds like you you you kind of went through a lot of the same thing just by committing the cardinal sin of going to a different faith like gathering.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah, that doing any sorts of response at that faith gathering, but also they they that particular chaplain and the chaplain above him, who was a colonel, didn't from the get-go, the chaplain colonel. I don't know why I didn't lead with this story. Sorry, I always think of the Wiccans because I think that is such a prime example of like the ridiculousness of it. It was like I was literally in the middle of doing my job, and then it's like that's like a prime example. But another example was personally like in the training, Air Force chaplain candidate training. I want to say in the first week when we're going through all that orientation stuff, we had a a chaplain colonel stand up and say, like, you know, there's gonna be a lot of us who don't believe in in different things here. Uh, for example, I don't believe that f women should be chaplains, but the Air Force does, and we're all here. And it just, I remember like it changed the tone for the rest of the time. Like, we were we all had just gone through like commissioned officer training together, and now we had spent a week of chaplain candidates, and then like it came down, and I just it was this very there were like four women that we just looked at each other and we were like, bro, like, and and very unnecessary again. That dog whistling, that like, is it a biblical marriage retreat? Do you pray in Jesus' name?

SPEAKER_00 32:26

I don't think the women should be chaplains, but the policy like and so it it's it sounds like and and I'm I'm not trying to get ahead of you here, but but like it's it sounds like you know, if you think of Christian nationalism as like a framework, as like the Whitehead and Perry's define it, right? A cultural framework. And like some of the elements that you just identified, you know, the sort of like reaction to going to a Wiccan thing or some of the complementarianism stuff that you hear, it's like that's all part of the framework. You know, like like that those beliefs operate kind of within that that Christian national framework. So anyway, I just wanted to say that.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

It absolutely does. And what's really and I so that's that's my my personal anecdotes. I have several, I've and now since doing my research and talking, I've hundreds of stories that people have submitted by and interviews and whatnot. But what's really fascinating is if you go back, that this not only is it part of a framework, but it has been by design in the military chaplaincy since really we see in the the the Vietnam War was a major turning point. There was some buildup. We can talk about the Cold War as well. But we see that in the Cold War, there is a deliberate change that we're talking about. You know, we got a lot of Eisenhower, just like civil religion and then like the godless communists and Americas are def the Christian defenders of democracy. And we also start seeing a Judeo-Christian relationship forming that both has to do with the state of Israel, but it also has to do with Soviet. There's like geopolitical stuff going on that is now American, those in power are positioning it as a Christian thing as well. So really fascinating to see the watch the Cold War in a sort of Christian rhetoric lens. We see the Judeo-Christian Alliance starting to form in the 40s and 50s. And really, the Vietnam War was a big turning point. Right before the Vietnam War, we see we have a letters, documents of an evangelical chaplain who these even, again, evangelical, non-denominational, fundamentalists, this sort of thing. They broke away from the Protestant mainline and kind of went independent. We are not affiliated with anybody. We're going to do our own independent congregational thing. Over time, they coalesced, organized. And now they are. I don't they are sort of a denomination at this point. Like I don't know what else to say. And now officially, if the military publishes these faith codes, it says non-denominational as their faith codes. And I was like, so that's your name now.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Welcome to the faith. I go to the church of non-denomination.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

Right. But um, but we see documents as is there like right before the the Vietnam War where they feel marginalized by the Protestants and by the mainline Protestants. They're like, there's no way for us to ever have power so long as the Episcopals, Anglicans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and probably for Baptists, these main line are still dominating. And as it would turn for them, I don't, you know, I mean the Vietnam War and that footage, the live footage was really hard for Protestant mainline Christians to rationalize from the pulpit. They started to dial back their support for war, dial back support for military chaplaincy, instead emphasized a lot, you know, whatever the more social justice stuff that has come out of progressive left for the last, you know, some odd years. But the evangelical, conservative, fundamentalist, non-denomination, whatever you want to put that whole group, they they continue to see this as their mission. And they were like, we are going to be the dominant chaplain core. We are here to protect this country, we're here to serve this country. And they've been running this narrative that the left hates America since Vietnam because they felt like they were the only military chaplains left. And so we start to see them increase in representation after Vietnam, also because the progressives are starting to decrease, dial back. 9-11, huge wave, Trump, and now we're here. And so that kind of catches you up on this was not only have we, they've been doing the seven mountain seven mountain mandate and project 2025. And I mean, like pick, but they this has also been very deliberate internally and to take over church and state. They don't think that what the progressive or Protestant mainline Christians did was right. Like they they think it's wrong. They think it's wrong. They they absolutely want state church and state. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:35

Yeah, it's like they they don't really want church and state. They just want church-state.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Right. Yeah. Like and but it is really fascinating. And I'm glad that you have such a political background because there is a sort of one of the things that now is being interesting, is interesting is the rhetoric around Jesus. We're seeing very different ways that Christian uh Jesus is being presented, both on the right and the left, but it's very, very vocal because it's online. And and that's what I've noticed is people being like, wait, how did you come up with that theology? Or like that. And it was just like, what do you mean? This is just always how I knew.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. Can I ask you about about the chaplain codes? Because I know that there was a news story that came out recently, and you again talked a little bit about it on your Instagram. I'd love to just know kind of, you know, what is what are these chaplain codes and what was it before? And then, you know, what what did it get reduced down to? And you know, maybe a little bit of like what what what's going to be the impact of that?

SPEAKER_02 38:40

The chaplain codes are really interesting because, like you pointed out, they are the DOD's definition of recognized faith. So it is a pseudo-establishment of this state. And again, we're talking now, we're having to deal with the minefield of institutions. So you want some sort of standards. You want like to have like, yes, we have people that represent this faith in the chaplain core. They have been endorsed by these people, they've met that endorser's standards, they're here. So that others can get religious accommodations, burial is very important, last rites, what to do in the hospital. I mean, like, there's some it you've been in the military, you have to reckon with death. You have to, like, I mean, your religion is on your resume because that's a very violent option there. And so these faith codes are the DoD approved list of endorsers, uh, not even endorsers really, but of these beliefs. They're they're the legitimate list of of who the DOD recognizes to be endorsed and to go out and and perform either perform faith or to you know seek caregiving for the troops, and then also for the troops to claim for themselves. So though it's a lot of internal paperwork, it doesn't affect dog tags, these faith codes. In fact, the faith codes that I announced recently, those are still unofficial and unreleased, but it's I wouldn't be surprised in the next month if it's right around what that list looks like. Years ago, we it is very controversial for the state to define a faith code and an endorser. It's very political. A just A in in defining it, B, you have a lot of people. These faith codes, you almost need to see more as like a list, not even like a list, but like a table of who is sitting at the table and represented in the Pentagon when it comes to faith matters. And we went from like 220 some odd faiths in the last 10 years because we were getting to that point of like, how do you define? We just like you, everything, like we said, it's so fractured, and you just kept adding people. And then there was a lot of research done about humanism and more like secular chaplaincy in a way, and that there was bringing in agnostic, and that very much upset. Like they were like, you already have women and queer chaplains, and you got trans folk, and you now you got humanist chaplains. Like, what is the chaplain core? Like, and and this was their argument, and we were like, chaplain core is a mutual aid, it's a mutual aid resource of faith and the spiritual care. Like, this is I and and that's how we saw it, and that was always the the the tension. So now these faith codes, like I said, they bloomed up to something like 221 or something, and there was a whole bunch of faiths on there. There was a lot of folks who claimed that there were people taking advantage of all these faith codes to be able to have beards, like some were very devout and it was related, some were like, Oh, I'll go be a Jedi. That was a recognized faith. And that was kind of what happened. Where so many people were arguing about it that they the Department of Defense was like, all right, we have these parameters. If you match these parameters and you have enough, then like we'll we'll add you to the code list. And anyway, so that's that's how we got there. And then there was this, well, we're gonna clean this up, we're gonna streamline it. And I knew right off the bat I was like, it only makes there's no way that this goes well. You cannot streamline a complex issue like that. That's why it's very much all or nothing. That's why it ballooned up to the order of the Jedi was an established, which is hilarious, by the way. Good job, Star Wars folks. Right. But just it is messy, it is, it is complex, it is controversial, and you did see people exploiting it. You also saw people taking real advantage of it. There are a number of Norse pagans that get laughed at, modic mocked, ridiculed, that are very devout. Like they hold services, they hold, they do their things, and whatever, and and and so they're the like I said, the wiccan that I so it's and then funny enough, too, for all these Christian nationalists, the more they bring attention to it, like the more people go to that. Like it, like it, I don't know. There's a lot of outrage that I'm like, you're creating this for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

Yeah, I I'm I'm curious like how how much that will impact basic training. Because so when I was in basic training, I was not a believer, but I went to church every Sunday because in basic training that gets you closer to like the PX where you can buy the snacks. So every Sunday without fail, you know, a bunch of guys feigned religions so that way, like, we can leave the barracks and then hopefully try to smuggle you know snacks from the the the store near nearby. Um and but I I I'm curious about your your thoughts on Chaplain's use of certain types of like religious language, kind of going back to the Christian nationalism thing, because we hear a lot of folks, you know, especially kind of cut from the Christian nationalism cloth, you know, they they use very loaded language, maybe dog whistle type language, you know, like armor of God, or you know, like sword, I don't know, iron sharpened iron. And to to probably like that the lay observer, you know, these it just sounds like Christianese, but we know like to to folks like uh Pete Hexeth or Doug Wilson, like this language is is is kind of designed to to make you think of you know you being a warrior for God. I mean in the context of being in the United States like military, like you're a warrior for God who happens to be armed by the United States government. So I'm I'd I'd love to just get get get get your get your sense of like if one you've ever heard of you know chaplains having to kind of reconcile with using that kind of language, and and and if not, you know, like well, what's your thoughts on that kind of language coming from chaplains, especially kind of in this environment that we're living in? Because I know that you you recently also just spoke with Mikey Weinstein, who who was on this show as well. So I'd love to kind of just just hear your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

Yeah. So I was actually going through my notes and journals and looking at a few of the sermons and benedictions that I had written for some of my my oper my experiences in the Chaplain Canada program. I did a benediction, I've done uh a few large dinner, banquets, ceremony type things, and and then I've just done some ministry prayer conversations and and you know one-to-one counseling. But it really, you know, that is the lane, that's not even really unique to Christian national. I mean, we can that is very like mixing mixing war and God is old. And and so that is the fine, and that's that that George Washington was like, I'm not doing this without it. And and so you under I I see that you also my whole thing was not so much ever emphasizing the violence, and I would hope that that's what chaplains refrain from. That's why this Heg says stuff is really unique because that's that really typically hasn't been we have part of, I know this now we're starting to get into white supremacy, Christian racism stuff, but part of the the waspy narrative is that they are so civilized, right? Even though that they're not, right? Like we but like if they're if they're going to conquer you, it's gonna be in suits or it's gonna be like or trains or technology. It whole always has been like this for American white supremacy. Like the everyone else is savages, we dominate cleanly. We're, we're, we're like, and you even hear this when I start talking like I'll start talking about women's history rights, and they'll be like, yeah, but like that's Christian men. You did that because you were around Christian men. Christian men are better than you know these other faith men. And it's like they they have this narrative that they are the less savage, quote unquote, like less whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Ned Flanders.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

Right. Like it's but yeah, yeah, but also but they're like, we're not, you should see what you know, something like jihadi terrorists. Like they'll like compare them as like Americans are the clean upstanding, and it's like we got a lot of history that proves differently, bro. But but that that is the narrative in their head. They all think they're Captain America, right? Like, and I don't know where we I kind of went down a tangent trying to explain this narrative. No, but like but that is like really historically, there has been this almost sort of Captain America like whole likeness to it, and this different, aggressive, we're being persecuted, therefore we need to dominate wholesale total warfare. That Dominionism, that's coming straight from that pipeline. And and so that's you that's where this rhetoric is. So there's always been like God, country, you know, God bless America. I mean, that phrase specifically was was introduced during the Cold War, but like that sentiment has always been there. But this hyper violent, targeted, it's I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

It's a it's a lot. So it is, and and for our for our Marvel fans out there, I would just like to remind you that Captain America was bad in the comic series uh Secret Empire. I won't get too nerdy, but there's a cosmic cube and he was cloned, and yeah, it was a whole thing. And great series, by the way, which is really, really like a great story kind of about our modern modern sort of current political climate. Anyways, uh my my my last question to you, Lee. Things are really, really bad right now. And it's it's weird. It's like there's one side of the country I think that feels like we're in an existential crisis, and another side that's like, meh, yeah, like like there's there's nothing. Like in your in your mind, like what what do you think Americans should know about religious freedom in this country to be successful, you know, for for the next two years, I s I say, you know, at least until Trump leaves office.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

Religious freedom or religious pluralism really is the whole that is the cog and the machine that makes all of this work. And it, and as a historian, America's history is very ugly. The founding fathers are very controversial. But when we talk about this specific line of logic, even though it was implemented by white, rich, patriarchal, aristocrat slave owners, and rapist racist, these that line of thinking is what allowed Jews to be able to vote very early on, Catholics to be able to vote very on, like women, and and then as it expanded, that line of logic has been what has allowed so much of our civil rights to come to fruition. And when you look at that on like the global space, I know we like look at different countries and we're like, there's so much more progressive or like, but when you think about history, like Rome did not have what we have. Like, and that's crazy that we created that. And we did it in such a short amount of time. We modeled ourselves after Rome, but it had been 2,000 years later. And look, and I think the civil rights that have come from it, I think a lot of just so much that is so much amazing beauty that has come from the United States and how religious pluralism has been actually the bedrock for so much and so much good in this country, in this history, and again, in a global way. And again, it's really cool to have the way that I interpret Jesus when I read the gospels to also see that there, like, even though there is a whole side of the world that doesn't or high side of the country that's like, eh, I don't care. There is a whole number of us who are small that are like, no, but but Jesus did fight against empire. He did, and like, and we'll show you and we'll go live that and we'll like so I I do like it's small but mighty, and and that is the beautiful story also about Jesus is 2,000 years later. Rome's gonna do what Rome's gonna do, but so is the story in the power of Jesus. So here we are, and old enemies.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

Yeah, yeah, you know, it it it it's it's true. I mean, like so I I came to the faith in 2008. I'm you know, I'm one of those types of Christians I probably don't read as Bible enough and don't know enough Bible verses and whatnot, but like I I do think that there is something to this Jesus guy. And, you know, it it's like folks that I that, you know, I want to say quote unquote get it, you know, folks that realize that, hey, regardless of what you think about Jesus, like he was a very influential figure. And I think that following sort of his example of the way he kind of dealt with a lot of the religious elites at the time can be very, you know, helpful for us to kind of figure out what we're gonna do about our current state of affairs. So yeah, I I I I really appreciate you you coming on Lee. How how can people follow your work and just yeah, check out what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 53:16

So I am at follow the leader. Uh leader is L-E-I-G-H. I am on all the the things. So TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Substack, Threads, YouTube. But yeah, come join me. I have all sorts of really awesome guests. I hope Willie, you will you will come on mine and return. We talk a lot about Christian nationalism, women's history, and also public lands, because out here in Montana we're fighting the data center fight pretty hard. So anyway, I really hope that y'all will come check out some of my content as I talk about Christian nationalism and U.S. military chaplaincy. This is a serious concern, as Will has stated. This is the ironic intersection of church and state. And with between that, the US superpower military and AI, I am concerned that we're looking at a whole epic EPOCH of Christianity that is like as significant as like the Protestant Reformation or the Crusades or Constantine. Like I think, I think we're in a huge moment historically. And if it feels topsy tipsy-turvy, you're not crazy. Make sure that you have your allies. Please go touch grass and and do have some sort of practice that connects you to your higher purpose, however you define that, because it's going to get rocky, folks.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

So true. Um, thank you so much, Lee, for uh for coming on. This has been, yeah, it's been great. Um, and I accept I will come on here on your show. And uh to our audience, hey, thanks for stopping by again. And as always, make sure you keep your conversations not right or left, but up, and we'll see you next time. Take care.