Rich Logis on Leaving MAGA and the Cost of Changing Your Mind

Why do people stay in political movements even after they begin to have doubts?

Rich Logis spent seven years as a committed MAGA activist, commentator, and organizer before ultimately leaving the movement and founding Leaving MAGA, a nonprofit that helps people who are questioning or leaving MAGA find community and support. In this conversation, Rich explains why he was initially drawn to Donald Trump, how political identity became intertwined with belonging, and what made it so difficult to walk away.
The discussion explores misinformation, political tribalism, Christian nationalism, media ecosystems, and the emotional cost of changing deeply held beliefs. Rich argues that leaving MAGA is often less about changing political opinions and more about losing a community that provided meaning, purpose, and connection.

The conversation also examines whether MAGA can outlast Trump, the role fear plays in political movements, and why people across ideological lines need spaces where disagreement does not require dehumanization.

Book Mentioned
One Betrayal Too Many: Why I Left MAGA by Rich Logis
Book page: https://leavingmaga.org/one-betrayal-too-many/
Relevant Links & Resources
Leaving MAGA
URL: https://leavingmaga.org/

Guest Bio
Rich Logis is the founder and executive director of Leaving MAGA, a nonprofit organization that helps people leave the MAGA movement, reconnect with friends and family, and share their stories publicly. A former MAGA activist, commentator, and podcaster, Logis spent seven years deeply involved in the movement before leaving in 2022. He is the author of One Betrayal Too Many: Why I Left MAGA, a memoir that examines political identity, misinformation, community, and the challenges of changing deeply held beliefs.

Support Sarah Stankorb’s work and preorder Damned If She Does: Why Women Quit Church and What It Means for the Future of Religion, Releases September 15, 2026.  Bookshop.org: https://bookshop.org/a/112456/9798889837091

Website: https://www.sarahstankorb.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And I wanted to develop a new community and a new destination and an off-ramp for people who have had quietly left MAGA, those who are having doubts, and also for friends and relatives of those who have close ones still in the thrall of MAGA. For example, we do uh a Tuesday night support group, which is online, which we put together for friends and relatives of MAGA-identified Americans to help them navigate those strained relationships. So we we created this organization as a place that is safe and supportive, and we provide services to those who are leaving MAGA and those who are who are having doubts and give them a place where they can find a new community to counter the community that they had in MAGA.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hey, welcome back to Faithful Politics Podcast. I am your political host, Will Wright, and I'm joined, as always, by your faithful host, Pastor Josh Bertram. How's it going, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Doing just fine, Will, thank you. I had my mute on and then forgot, like always.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

No worries. Hey, today our guest today is Rich Lodges. He's the founder of Leaving MAGA. He's he began supporting Donald Trump in 2015 as a political independent who felt a strain from both major parties. Trump to him looked like a disruptor that he's been waiting for, and he eventually even became like a MAGA pundit, wrote op-eds, did his own podcasts, all kinds of stuff. But there was something that changed, what we're gonna get into, that made him want to actually form an organization called Leaving MAGA, where he's helping other people escape this community that may not necessarily be and not may not necessarily have their best interests at at heart. So I just want to welcome you to our show. Rich, welcome to Faithful Politics.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Thanks, guys. Good to be with you. I appreciate you having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Yeah, we are we are super excited to have you. And I guess before we uh before we get into some of the questions, I I'd love for you to just tell us a little bit more about Leaving MAGA. Like what is Leaving MAGA?

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Sure. And let me just preface by saying, as I like to do in my conversations, as is customary, I want to apologize for my my past MAGA activism. When I was in MAGA, what I found was a community. And I had feelings of gathering and belonging and camaraderie. I had a second family. And after I left MAGA, the idea for the organization came came to me because I I thought there had to have been other people who also, like myself, left MAGA. And I wanted to develop a new community and a new destination and an off-ramp for people who have had quietly left MAGA, those who are having doubts, and also for friends and relatives of those who have close ones still in the thrall of MAGA. For example, we do a Tuesday night support group, which is online, which we put together for friends and relatives of MAGA-identified Americans to help them navigate those strained relationships. So we we created this organization as a place that is safe and supportive, and we provide services to those who are leaving MAGA and those who are who are having doubts and give them a place where they can find a new community to counter the community that they had in MAGA.

SPEAKER_02 3:31

There are so many questions that come to my mind as I'm hearing you talk about this, because just even thinking about the idea that people care way more about belonging than they do about truth, even though we we we say we care about truth. And I think truth is obviously important and people do care about it, but it seems like we a lot of us want to care about truth, but we don't want to care about truth alone. We'd rather not be alone. And so if if it's either between uh caring about the truth or or trying to find the truth or being alone, we're probably gonna choose to not be alone and just stop trying to push. And so we definitely need a community, and I'm just so fascinated by this. Like, even that we're in this place as a country where we're literally talking about like the kinds of harm that political ideas and the political, like a political party, not even just a party, like a mag, like a subset of a party has caused so much pain and so much disunity, so much division and hostility between even family members. And I know this because it's happened in my own family, extended family, but it's happened in my own family. The the kind of uh anger that people can feel about political views when someone doesn't support Donald Trump or does support Donald Trump, the kind of vitriol that is exchanged on both sides of that is is pretty unbelievable. It's it's amazing. And I how did you like when you were working through this whole thing creating this organization, how did you work through the social cost of all that? Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Well, I think I think it is mo I think it's important to to best define MAGA, not not as a a cult, for example, but as a a community of people who find that sense of purpose together, you know, and more than and and the community, communal aspect of this transcends any politics or ideology. I don't believe that MAGA is really about politics and ideology. It's about those feelings of belonging. And I I knew that when I was when I was going through my what I call and I have a memoir that came out, One Betrayal Too Many, a few months ago, and I have a chapter in there called My Year of Heaven and Hell. And that's to describe the year that it took me from start to finish to realize that I had been following beliefs that turned out to be inaccurate. But I had a second family, and one of the parts that made it so excruciatingly difficult to leave MAGA is I knew that I was going to walk away from that second family. And that second family, it validated me, it acknowledged me. I was, I felt seen, I felt heard. As embarrassed as I am to admit this, my second family oftentimes took precedence over my own blood family. And I devoted time, money, and resources to my MAGA activism that could have gone to my family and to my business. So I was unapologetically all in. You know, I were I spoke at Trump groups, I was a sponsor of Trump groups, I was friendly with someone who ran a very well-known local Trump group where we would meet every month, we would break bread, we would go to holiday parties, we would go to our kids' events. It was, it was truly like having close friends and family. And it was intoxicating, you know, having that that validation that I found from that community. But I knew that walking away, I was gonna leave behind those individuals. And I consider myself, guys, very, very lucky that I left MAGA and I didn't have a place to go, but I still did it. And as a result of telling my story and being at a crossroads, it's how the the organization of leaving MAGA was born. And, you know, we're now in our third year. We have never been busier. We have three dozen leaders in our in our who have given testimonials and given public witness to their MAGA to their leaving MAGA Odyssey. And I think that everyone who leaves is looking for a new community. And I'm very proud of the fact that we and our team have been able to build something where people can rediscover their and reclaim their individuality and their empathy and their agency. And when you leave MAGA, you become what I like to call a born-again human being. And that's that's how I describe it after leaving.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

You know, I'm curious on on who Rich was before leaving MAGA. When you say that, you know, you wrote out beds, you attended meetings, you led meetings, you were you were basically sold out kind of for what the cause, you know, that MAGA represented. Like, what what did what brought Rich to MAGA in the first place? Like what were the issues? What were the, you know, the the things that that Trump talked about that really kind of caught your attention that said, hey, you know, I'm gonna give this guy a try.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

In 2015, I was somebody who was politically lonely. And I did think that the two parties were the same, and I felt that democracy had failed most Americans and that elected officials cared most about the wealthy and the powerful. And even though Trump came from that world, he ran as some, and even though he ran as a Republican, when I was an independent, I was attracted to the burn it all down persona and ethos of the campaign. And I feel like Trump was correct in pointing out a lot of the corruption and the and the failure of elected of officials to represent well their constituents. But without any government, military, or political experience, I felt that he was the right person for the job at the time. And even though I wasn't immediately enamored with the Trump campaign as time went on, I found myself nodding more and more in agreement, especially on economic issues. You know, when he would talk about jobs that were lost to outsourcing once vibrant communities that became hollowed out because of outsourcing. I found myself more and more in concurrence with what he was saying on the campaign trail. And I decided to work on the campaign in early 2016. And I wasn't, I wasn't a big wig volunteer in any way, but I did write part of the call script for the campaign. I showed people where to get registered. I recruited people to vote for Trump, including Bernie Sanders voters. And I did all of the grassroots work that was necessary to get Trump elected. And I wish that I had been wrong in my prognostication, but I remember going on a public radio show and saying and predicting that Trump would be the nominee and would win the general election. So on election night, we were completely vindicated in this victory. You know, we had taken on the world and we were victorious in taking on the world. In fact, as somebody who's not even the most religious Catholic, I remember the night before the 2016 election, I drove to a local church. It was closed. I sat in the parking lot and I said a prayer. And I said, please God, let us be victorious tomorrow. So even as a as I like to joke, you know, my wife hates this joke. I always say I'm an excommunicated Catholic. I think Pope Leo would welcome me, though, back in. I went and said a prayer and and put it out into the ether that I wanted us to win, and we did. And after the victory, I got deeper and deeper into the MAGA community. I spent my own money on producing a podcast. I was an aspiring MAGA pundit. I had bylines in places like Fox and the Federalist. I wrote for a site, WorldNet Daily, which was one of the originators of the Obama birther conspiracy. And I knew that. But it was more important for me to be this patriotic, loyal soldier in what I felt was this good versus evil political battle between all of us on the side of MAGA and everybody else who were an egg, they were an existential threat to my life, my livelihood, my family, and my country. And I was the real American on the side of on the right side of history, and everybody against us, they were on the wrong side of history, and they were the fake Americans, whether they were Democrats or liberals or progressives, or someone like an Adam Kinzinger who wrote the forew to my memoir. If you were not with us 100%, we considered you 100% against us. And that's a that militant mindset was really, in hindsight, very traumatizing because I came to understand that when I was in MAGA, yes, it was exhilarating and enthralling and new and novel and communal. But after leaving, I realized that I had been in these perpetual states of desperation and fear and panic and paranoia. And I was addicted to the rage and the fear of being in MAGA. I was always angry at somebody or some group. I always felt there was some devilish liberal behind every tree. We used to say, we used to say in our private conversations, and even publicly in my writings, we would say anyone who was, let's say, a Democratic voting Jew or Christian, they weren't a real Jew, they weren't a real Christian. This kind of dehumanizing rhetoric is the kind of language that I trafficked in. And I feel a lot of remorse for it, but at the same time, I never wanted to wallow in my regret. And it's why I decided that I needed to do something about it, which is how Leaving MAGA came to be.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

You know, when people talk about the struggles that they have being addicted to fear, like I've heard this before, and I've and I agree with you. I think it's so powerful if you can get people to figure out what they're afraid of, amplify that, show them examples of how that thing is happening, make it seem like it's happening all over the place all the time, give them numbers, exaggerate the numbers, knowing, well, number one, you've already cut out, like you've already shown so much uh disunity and so much distrust for anything outside of your uh I'm talking MAGA, right? Trump has sown so much distrust and within that circle and ecosystem, so much distrust for legacy media, for anything that isn't them, right? That immediately it's almost like you're dealing with the conspiracy theory person that anything you say to them automatically, if it doesn't fit in, automatically just becomes further proof of the conspiracy because you're trying, like you're just trying to get them to believe something, right? That's what they would do. That's part of the conspiracy. They want us to believe this stuff. And in seeing all this stuff out there where the with the White Houses are posting things about trust Trump. Trust Trump. Like, who are they talking to? They're not they're not talking to me, they're not talking to Rich Logis anymore. They're not talking, certainly not talking to Will Wright, that that that terrible bloody liberal. They're not talking to them, they're talking to someone else, right? So it's like it it is it feels very cultish. I'd be I'm I'm very careful because I don't want to offend my good my good friends that are MAGA, and I don't want to offend their intelligence or anything like that because they're very smart people. I'm what I'm trying to figure out is like how is it that this man was able to do this? That he was able to get someone such as yourself who is intelligent, obviously very ambitious, all these things to literally get into a place of addiction to what they were telling you. The adrenaline of the adrenal of here's the person to be afraid of, here's a thing to be angry about. How did this how did this happen? How were they able to infiltrate at that level?

SPEAKER_01 16:47

You know, in my memoir, I write about a they. You just said a moment ago, Josh, about them. And I write about a they, and the they were mostly Democrats, but they were the they were trying to abridge my rights and indoctrinate my children in the public schools, and they were trying to take my guns away. They were trying to replace white people with brown people and foreigners, they were trying to persecute Christians and erode Christianity, trying to turn America into a communist or socialist country. I shared many of these beliefs, and I knew others who also held these beliefs, and we all held them sincerely and genuinely. But I I think what again I came to, it was liberating, but it was painful that I came to understand is that after leaving MAGA, I I did something that well, I sh let me backtrack. While I was going through my my transition out of MAGA and my year of heaven and hell, I did something that sounds very simple but was very life-changing and altering for me profoundly, which was I diversified my news and information sources. And after leaving MAGA, I came to conclude and better understand that there has been a multi-decade coordinated effort by the right wing, even though I'm not a great fan of the left-wing, right wing terms, but there's been a coordinated effort by the right wing to demonize, dehumanize, and vilify Democrats, liberals, progressives, etc. And that propaganda and agiprop has been very consistent, very effective, and very disciplined. And I think that what Trump was able to do was he he gave voice to all of the fear and the rage and paranoia that exists within the MAGA base that there is a they who's conspiring against them. And when you leave MAGA, it's not enough to just distance yourself from the president. You you have to also renounce the lies, falsehoods, and conspiracies of those, or are the lies, falsehoods, and conspiracies of MAGA politics. And in addition to that, you've got to build up democracy rather than tear it down. And the way that we define that is by making the continued case that we as Americans agree more than we disagree. And if we could, if we got past the divisions and the polarization, what, for example, if I had a chance, Josh, to talk to your to those of those you know who are in MAGA, and we spoke at length and long enough, we would find that we actually have a lot of agreement and concurrence on important issues, you know, that we do care about economic opportunity and mobility, that we care about safety and security, we want good quality health care, we want good schools for our children. I bet that we would even find common ground all of the money that has polluted and adulterated our politics. But it's very lucrative for those who are on the MAGA media and influencer side in keeping us at each other's throats and divided. And I'm not saying that non-MAGA media doesn't divide as well, because unfortunately it it does, and it's why it's important to have a diverse assortment of news and information that we consume. But the fealty to Trump is really because he's the OG originator of this community. You know, he's the one who's given voice and has embodied the fear and the and the rage and and the addiction that people have to believing that there are these pernicious, nefarious forces who are working as this kind of cabal against them. And more than anyone else in the modern era, Trump has been able to amplify those conspiracies and divide the country. And I personally, the reason, one of the reasons I apologize is because I was complicit and culpable in helping the president amplify conspiracies and divide the country with my writings and my podcast and my rhetoric. Yes, I may have been only one person, one voice, one vote, but I don't really look at it that way. I was part of an ecosystem that did dehumanize people who were Democrats. And I even went back to friends of mine after I left who were Democrats, and I apologized to them for lumping them into a category of existential threats. So it's really, it's really, I think, best understood to look at the the multi decade coordinated effort to vilify those who are on the left, and now we're seeing what the the repercussions of that of what that propaganda has wrought.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

I'm curious on your sense of whether you think MAGA is more of a like a religious movement or a political movement. And the the the reason I I ask you that is because you know, survey after survey, you know, PRI puts out really, really great data. They they kind of focus on there's sort of a small minority of folks that are just like absolutely loyal to Trump no matter what. Um and some would go as far as saying, hey, we we would even pick up arms, you know, if it meant you know, solidifying like Christi Christianity's place in America. So we we talk a lot about Christian nationalism. It's almost like in today's modern era, you can't talk about Christian nationalism without talking about Trump. And and even like in the the time we've been talking, you you've made some references, you know, that had sort of religious overtones to them. So I'm I'm curious, like like in your in your your mind, like do you get the sense a lot of MAGA followers kind of stay loyal kind of out of out of the same religious sort of fealty as they would, you know, like attending a church or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 23:08

I I think it is similar. And one of the reasons is because people who are in MAGA just as I did make MAGA integral to their identity. And there's this inextricable link between people's identity, their being in their personhood, being in MAGA. And even though I wasn't the most religious person when I was in MAGA, I was around evangelicals. And I came to believe, because I allowed myself to be influenced into thinking it, that Christians were persecuted and that and that there was a danger to secularism. And I think that for many people who are very religious and in particular very religious as Christians who are in MAGA, I think it's partly because they are afraid of the they, that the perception has been created that the left-wing and liberals and democrats and leftists and progressives want to do away with Christianity and want to persecute Christians. And I feel like people who are evangelical have coalesced around that conspiracy, which explains why there is this undying devotion between Trump and the evangelical and evangelical communities across the country. So I I think that because of just how ingrained MAGA is in people's identities, it's why it's so hard for people to even admit that they're having doubts. You know, for those who might see this, who are in MAGA, who are maybe having doubts, what I would tell them is that they are not alone and that we understand what they're going through and that we've we've been where they are. You know, we have one of our leaders, Stefania, her entree into MAGA was through her Christian nationalist church. So she always says that she was MAGA before MAGA even came on the scene. And yes, she left MAGA, and yes, she left that church, but for her in her church, the belief was that God had sent Trump to save America. And if someone believes that, they absolutely are going to believe in the they that there's this that there's this shadowy group who's trying to infringe upon one's right to freely worship. But we know that upon closer inspection and scrutiny that that belief is not accurate. But if someone has convinced themselves of it, then they're gonna follow Trump because he's the one who is standing between secularism and communism and and and socialism and godlessness. He's the one in between all of that and the evangelical Christian community.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah, I have heard that narrative before, and it's very common and it's very powerful. And you know, I think about so I'm gonna bring out a tension that I feel because I'll just give you just a a little bit of context. The mayor of Minneapolis, I don't remember his name, Frey, something like that, or but uh yeah, yeah, yeah. So he posted like uh yesterday or the day before, like it was an LGBTQIA celebration at the State House or you know, or wherever it was, maybe the not the state house, but the mayor's mansion or wherever. And that's you know it has a right to post whatever. But I'm looking at this and you know, I it's funny because Will and I have talked about drag queen story hour like many times. Like I would not take my kids to drag queen story hour. That's not something that would be something that I would do. And for a variety of reasons, but that doesn't mean I don't think that people that wear drag are humans, that they did that that they you know they deserve respect, that they deserve care, love, all those things, right, that any person deserves, right? So, and I don't want to say that they're bad, right, or anything like that. That's not really what I'm saying. But I'm looking at this and I'm and I'm thinking, I don't want what's happening with MAGA, but then on here, and and basically like, and I don't know, I it might be displaying my ignorance, but it seems like there it was like very sexualized. There's like a lot of, you know, like gr like almost like grinding on like the steps and like the like the what is it called? Just the the the the railings for the steps and this like marble steps and this beautiful mansion, whatever, that's fine. I'm not saying all I'm saying is I looked at it and I did not have a positive emotional reaction when I saw that, right? I had one where it's like that's not really what I want my kids to see. That's not really what I want my kids to be a part of. And so I see that, and then I see MAGA, and I'm like, I don't want them to be a part of MAGA, that hatred, right? That that disgust that is that is brought out in in those circles for people that are different. Oh, that anyone really who's in many ways non-Christian or whatever, like there's such vitral and anger and hatred that seems to be grown there, which is so anti-Christ in my mind. And yet then on the other side, like that does not seem like that's not celebrating my morals or the things that I the values that I have. And I guess I sit here and and and I think I wonder how much of this I mean we we were we were hitting it, but this the cultural the fear of cultural collapse the fear of if I go to the alternative, is this what is going to happen? Right? If I go is in Richmond, is it gonna be drag shows in in the Richmond mayor office and and whatever. And again, I'm not I'm not even saying I'm not trying to here sit here and debate the objective morality of that, although I have I I I I don't think it is that great, but I'm really talking about my own emotional reactions and values and then seeing where do I go because it seems like no matter what I do, the alternatives aren't going to fit me, and maybe that's the point. But I don't I I just would love to hear your thoughts on that because the conspiracy, you're proving these things wrong, like some of these things that are factually incorrect, but I do have concerns about the c the way the culture moves when the other party, so to speak, is in power. So I guess I'm kind of bringing out the tension to hear your thoughts on it, I think. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

You know, I spend a lot of time online. I always say that I'm terminally online. It's how I sometimes have found people who have left MAGA, and it's also how people who have left MAGA have found us. So I spend an inordinate amount of time online, especially on social media. And there is, unfortunately, what what I call amongst our team Blue MAGA. And you know, uh you've had on the show one of our board members, Noelle Cook, and she's she's our resident blue MAGA expert, where there's there's a there's a conspiratorial ethos to to Blue MAGA, you know, where for example it might be saying that the that Trump didn't really win the 2024 election, for example. And I and I've said before online and I've I've made comments respectfully to Blue MAGA, which I've said, you know, stop that. Please do not do not go there. We had it we had a riot at the Capitol because the president was saying that the elect that the election was was rigged. And people can debate how how culpable Trump may have been in all of that, but it doesn't, but what we do know is that people believe the election was stolen and committed, you know, whether you want to call it a riot or an insurrection, you know, they attacked the Capitol that day. So there is a blue magga. You know, I wouldn't, for my kids, of all of the activities that I could do with them, I wouldn't take them to a drag show either until until maybe, maybe they were of a certain age. And I don't think that they're at the age right now where I would where I would bring them. So I I think that it's a valid concern when people see individual examples of maybe something that culturally doesn't agree with them, I sure or culturally that they don't agree with. I might, I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's an epidemic, but I think that for some people, you know, we can respect their their conservatism. And and I don't think that conservatism writ large is is entirely wrong. You know, I, for example, I own a firearm, I have a concealed carry permit. Now, I think our I think our firearm laws are probably 50 years lagging. We know that guns are uh are a leading cause of children dying, but I'm not an anti-second amendment person. You know, I I have a don't tread on me Gadston flag. Unfortunately, it's been co-opted, but I I have one, you know. I've got a I've got that flag, and and it's and it came from a place that sells only American-made flags. So it was 100% made here. So I I do think that we have to be mindful and be attuned to blue MAGA because blue MAGA is able to amplify itself a lot online, and we don't want to become an engage in the kind of behavior that we abhor and we see the other side on the right or Trump or MAGA, the kind of behavior that that they're engaging in.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

Yes. Yeah, I I I think that that's a really good, really good point because one of the one of the things that I suspect are keeping people in MAGA is, and and I think you alluded a little bit to it earlier, is that they don't have a place to go, right? So they're looking for community, they're looking for other people that think like them at the moment, you know, this MAGA community are the only ones that are doing that, but there are other people out there. And and it's like, you know, I thought a lot about this like when Trump first got elected, you know, the the never Trumpers. Because, you know, these never Trumpers, I don't think necessarily changed their views on things like the Second Amendment, abortion, same-sex marriage, you know, like like the all the things that that made them Republican or conservative or however you want to frame it, you know, like it's still there. It's just that they are just singularly focused on, you know, getting Trump out of the out of the office. So so like if you are a person that joined the MAGA movement and you're like, all these issues are still important to me. You know, it doesn't matter if Trump is saying it or Bush saying it or whoever, it's just they're still important. Like, where what what what do you tell those folks? Like what where do they go?

SPEAKER_01 35:04

You know, one thing about weaving MAGA that I that I say all the time is that we do not have an ideological purity test. Now, full disclosure and transparency, everyone who's come to Weaving MAGA has voted Democratic, including those who identify as Republican and conservative. We have some members who are Republican and were Republicans their whole adult life, and conservatives who identify as conservative, but they vote Democratic. But we don't require anyone to have to become a Democrat or a liberal or progressive. I think, I think purity tests cause a lot of strife and division. And if you look at the Democratic Party, purity tests have created these interminable internacine battles where everyone is at odds with each other in the Democratic Party. And I am somebody who is a very boring, squishy centrist independent. I was a Republican under Trump, but I've been an independent for several years now. And I think most Americans are actually boring, squishy centrists. And and and but many who are in the middle are very tuned out to our politics, but are the ones who tend to help candidates win in general elections for the most part. So I I I can very much sympathize with those who feel like maybe they don't want to be MAGA, but maybe they don't want to be Democrats either. And that's because you know the two parties can often suck, you know, honestly. You know, and in all truth be told, yes, I think.

SPEAKER_00 36:55

Austin didn't let him look there.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

You know, I yes, full disclosure, I voted Democratic in 24. I worked on Camel's campaign, I was a co-chair of a committee in Florida. I did media on behalf of the campaign. But ultimately, as much as I might say the two parties suck, we are in a two-party system. And we have to try to land somewhere that best meets what where our values are. And I feel like with with MAGA, I don't think that Trump is a very honest broker and oftentimes is insulting the intelligence of his of his followers, of those who are supporting him. You know, politicians pre-varicate and exaggerate and and lie sometimes, but with the president, it's established, factually accurate, that there is no one who has lied more than the president has, and anyone who is that dishonest is is insulting the intelligence of supporters. You know, Pete Buttigieg.

SPEAKER_02 38:13

Than what more than any president in the past?

SPEAKER_01 38:16

That's just exactly. It's irrefutable, you know. And Pete Buttigieg, who whether, you know, whether someone likes him or not, he's got this saying that he's been been mentioning in his camp. Well, I'm saying campaign stops. He's not a candidate yet, but he will be. But he says that Donald Trump doesn't deserve you as a voter, and that no one is good or bad based on how they vote. And I really love that message because I think that it's nonpartisan and it appeals to people across a broad and wide swath of beliefs and ideology.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Real quick comment to your point about how he feels about his voters. So, like, so I have a true social account, and I recommend everybody get their own true social account only because you need to follow what the president is doing.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

Because we're gonna give him so much more money because then so many more people are gonna be on there.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah, but but but it's like uh one of the things I I like to do is when when he posts something, and he posts something by this guy, I think it's John Solomon from just news, like all the time. And and he posted something recently about I think the election in California. And one of the things I do is I read all the articles that he posts. Because I'm thinking like Trump doesn't read these articles, right? Like somebody gives him these articles and tells them to post it. So so I I read the article and I and I clip the one section that makes the entire article just like completely ridiculous. So there is a line at the very bottom of this of this article he posted that said, No evidence has been provided to support that the election in California, you know, is ruined. And and it's just like all you have to do is just post that with you know a screenshot of the truth social and be like, this is what the president wants you to believe, but he also doesn't want you to read the article because then you'll see that he's actually basically lying to you. So yeah, I agree with everything you said about him and his voters.

SPEAKER_01 40:11

And I and I think actually more people in MAGA than we realize right now have privately left, are quietly having doubts. I think there's there are more than ever in MAGA who are experiencing the the cognitive dissonance between their sincerely held beliefs and what their own eyes are showing them, and realize that there is something amiss in the country. But there's a lot of denial because to to acknowledge and honor those doubts means that someone might be mistaken. And it's an unnatural act for our Homo sapien species to admit that we're wrong and to acknowledge the errors of our ways, and it's especially unnatural to do it publicly. But that's why we are trying at Weaving MAGA, we are trying to normalize and reduce the stigmatization of people admitting that they're wrong and acknowledging an error because we don't believe that expressing remorse over a wrong decision makes someone weak. We think it's a sh it's a show and a sign of strength and evolution and maturation. And we are trying to create the the off-ramp for people who can come forward without fear of recrimination or ostracization or judgment. And it's why we spend a lot of time with our more liberal brothers and sisters in saying to them, hey, when people leave MAGA, we can either shun them or we can welcome them. And rejecting them might be the initial temptation. And I understand why, because a lot of people have been traumatized by MAGA over the last 10 plus years, and there's a lot of fear, there's a lot of anger, there's people are what I call empathy exhausted. But as people are leaving MAGA, do we want to do we want to shun them or do we want to invite them and welcome them? And if we're going to build pro-democracy coalitions and we're not going to be hypocrites about it, well, then we need to welcome everybody who wants to come into the big tent. And that includes those who leave MAGA. And even though, and I'm not trying to say that to admonish people and say, you better let, you know, you better offer grace to those who leave MAGA. No, if when someone's leaving MAGA, they're acknowledging their mistake and they want to repair the damage that might have been caused as a result of their support. So even though I'm not a historian, what I know about our history is that every time we have progressed and moved forward and moved beyond a crisis situation, and we are in a crisis now, the way that we've done it is by forming unlikely but necessary alliances. And I think that liberals, Democrats, progressives, and those who leave MAGA, these are alignments that we can form to push back against the administration, to win the midterms in 2026 this year, focus on, you know, beyond November, and also don't forget about our state and local elections, because those are important also, and are arguably, they arguably impact our lives even more than do national elections. But national elections are important also. We need to vote up and down the ballot. So I just I would ask those out there to find in themselves the forgiveness that if someone changes and seeks genuine penitence, that we offer them and extend them the grace. race and then welcome them into the into the democratic lowercase default.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

I mean I definitely under I definitely understand that and I agree with the attitude. We have to give people a place to land. And which which is hard to do though if you still disagree with their policy and when you still disagree with like even vehemently with some of their issues, right? So I'm imagining myself right becoming part of the Democratic Party. And what would that look like? Well it would it would mean that I would probably vote in a way that was not in accordance with my beliefs on probably probably on abortion on maybe half and half on LGBTQ rights. I mean I definitely you know the every single person deserves rights. Like it's not even a question for me, right? So it's like the the issues of same-sex marriage, the issues in Obergerfell and I I have a I have a view on that I I not only a religious view but also a natural law view a kind of philosophical view on that that I that that I would love if everyone agreed with but we live in a pr a pluralistic society and we have to learn how to live with each other. And so it's like when I'm it is kind of about what are we going to do because you know Donald Trump's almost 80 um he's not going to live forever and he is supposed to be done in three years. Right? So if he continu if he doesn't try to get a new term and is somehow successful with that, which I mean yeah that would be kind of the end of our what we understand as America I think if that happens at this point if there is some kind of push in that way or success. But let's say like he does right he won't he's this is his last term he's done but he's still going to be trying to influence politics. He is not the kind of person who's going to stop. He has uh loyalists he has uh children family members and he will try to continue to insert himself into I did there's just I have zero confidence that Donald Trump will ever stop trying to run America and make it what he wants as long as he's alive. I I I just miracles happen but that would be maybe a greater miracle than many of the ones than the parting of the Red Sea. I'm not going to say the resurrection that's blasphemous than the parting of the Red Sea maybe maybe uh maybe that so anyway all I had to say where do you see like how can the okay how does the MAGA movement survive without Donald Trump? Can it? Do you think it will that's kind of basically what I'm getting to as we're moving into the future Trump's gone out of the scene what happens to MAGA? What's going on? What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 47:07

When I was in MAGA it was a fantasy of ours to kill off the GOP and transform it into a MAGA party and that has been achieved and accomplished. So when Trump is out of office for exactly Josh the reasons that you're saying MAGA might weaken slightly but it's going to remain it's one of our two major parties right now it's called the Republican Party but that's just a name only it's truly the MAGA party. And I think what will happen though is when when Trump is out of office I do think there are going to be more MAGA Americans who are going to find themselves maybe questioning or doubting because Trump is not there. Because he might be present but he's not in a position of of actual presidential power. And if people find themselves at a crossroads the good news is that we're able to try to catch them and that's where I hope leaving MAGA is is going to become even busier than we are right now, which is catching people who are going to say you know I was MAGA all this time Trump's not here anymore I've I've started to go through a personal introspection and I'm more closely examining my beliefs and I'm realizing that maybe I don't agree with a lot of these beliefs that I held and it will be a way for us to to present an alternative for people to leave not to necessarily become a Democrat or vote Democratic but have them have them have an outlet where they have the exit ramp and the off ramp I don't think that MAGA will go away after Trump is out of office. I think that it's it's it's too strong it's too prevalent. It's had enough time to to to grow itself I think it's a little bit of a political hydra. It's multi-headed and there's a there are lots of MAGA influencers and figures, you know, the ones you point out Josh the family in particular who are who are going to satiate and satisfy the hydra. So it's not going to go away but I'd like to think that leaving MAG is at the vanguard of all of this and that we're going to be able to to show people a pathway out of MAGA when they start to have doubts and show them that they're not alone and that it's okay to admit that they're wrong and it's okay to question their belief system. And that's what that's how we make progress it's by people re-examining their views and changing their minds. If we look at our history you know whatever the important issue whether it's the abolition of slavery, reconstruction, women's suffrage, even you know civil rights voting rights, even marriage equality, it all happened because people changed their minds. So I'd like to think that even though my story and the story of others who left are cautionary tales, we're living proof that people can change and it's why I don't I think we shouldn't give up on our MAGA friends and relatives and we can have good faith debates about abortion and the death penalty and you know trans rights for example. People can have disagreements that aren't rooted in malice and aren't rooted in overtly trying to take people's rights away. But the only way we can really experience good faith debates is by people having conversations that and and are and are kept in a shared reality. Unfortunately with MAGA there is so much miss and disinformation within MAGA that we're not sharing a reality with people who are in MAGA. There's not a fact-based we we don't have a fact-based consensus and I'm not saying that other groups aren't information siloed but MAGA is the most information siloed group in the country and I can attest to that because I was in it for seven years. Any information that even remotely refuted the pervasively held beliefs and mythologies of MAGA it was shunned. It was kept out you know for me my media diet it was entirely MAGA media. It was the media that I wrote for and it was it it was also sites like Breitbart.com. I lived on Breitbart's site I consumed that website and its content voraciously I lived in the comment section. So I think that there's a crisis level right now in our country of miss and disinformation and it's fed by what I call the United States of algorithms. So we we have to we we have to gently push back on the algorithms and and recognize all of us to some extent have become addicted to and our worldview shaped by these algorithms including especially those who are in MAGA you know that that's that's that's so it's so true.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Like we we do live in this like perpetual state of algorithms which I I posted something the other day that said you know the the new currency in America is basically like shares and subscribe right so like if you want if you are looking around and you're wishing that your fellow neighbor and friends were a little bit smarter or knew the things that you you knew like share the things that you you actually watch subscribe like I don't know how many times I get you know stuff that's just liked and not shared and this sounds like a total first world prom that I'm talking about but but I I I want I want to end um our conversation by talking to you about these billboards that I'm seeing put up everywhere. It's like I can't I can't scroll social media without seeing one of your billboards which is great. But but I want to just learn a little bit more about what the billboards are. What are you hoping to accomplish and what what kind of feedback are you getting?

SPEAKER_01 53:26

I have to say I underestimated how much people would love billboards. You know we had several months ago some local citizens in Pennsylvania put up some billboards and it generated a lot of local buzz. It generated local media attention and I I slowly started to have the idea thinking okay people seem to like these billboards where can we start putting them up and we have now put them up in a total of 18 states. We are across lots of different cities ranging from Tulsa to Nashville to Phoenix we've got several in Florida including two that are mere miles from Mar-a-Lago we have one that went up in the villages which is what as we joke in Florida Disneyland for senior citizens it's a census census designated area for senior citizens we put one up there we've got one going up in Times Square very soon as well that's going to be going up and yes there are metrics that we looked at to gauge their success such as media attention especially earned media engagement on our social media and content fundraising but the most important metric that we look at is how many people as a result of the billboards who are in MAGA reach out to us. And we have had more people in MAGA than ever because of the billboards contact us saying I'm in MAGA. I don't know what to do I'm having doubts please help me. So that metric which is most significant and relevant to us, we are seeing it happen. So we want people who see the boards to know just like it says on the billboard the message is having doubts you're not alone we want them to know you're not alone you have support and resources with our organization where you can turn to and meet not just like minded people, but people who went through the odyssey of leaving MAGA. And just like my epiphany which to paraphrase the late Venerable Hemingway happened gradually and then suddenly all at once I think that's the kind of exodus we're going to see out of MAGA, which is going to be slowly and then suddenly all at one time where we're going to have a deluge of people who are going to be coming to us. And we have built our infrastructure as an organization to be able to handle a massive amount of people coming to us. And so the billboards are really designed to spread the word of what we're doing, let people know in red areas that we exist. Even though some of the billboards are in areas where there are a lot of blue voters what people don't really realize is when we look at places like Nashville or Tulsa, we're in Shreverport Louisiana in Mike Johnson's district we put a board there even in blue even in blue areas there are lots of red voters and so we're we're not ignoring the blue voters because those are friends and relatives who can tap into our support support group we do every Tuesday but we're really we're really looking to appeal to those red voters who right now might be saying you know I'm not sure about MAGA. This isn't exactly the movement that I thought I was supporting. I'm starting to question it and and the billboards will show them that they have a place to come to sorry about that and the uh the where where can people find you leaving MAGA so anyone who wants to go to socials subscribe to our newsletter contact us I do read all the messages that come in read who can read where you can read the testimonials of others who have left MAGA as well people can find us at leavingmaga.org reach out to us there drop us a note or a question or a comment again we do read all of them so people can find us at leavingmaga.org that's awesome thank you so much rich for uh stuffing by this has been a really really good conversation no it's my pleasure guys thank you for you taking an interest in what we're doing and for your and and for this uh this I I found this conversation to be very enlightening and very challenging which is I think the best kinds of conversations so thank you yes thank you yeah we are super happy and and uh to our audience hey thanks again for stopping by and as always make sure you keep your conversations not right or left but up and we'll see you next time take care