106 - How a Book Gets Published, from the Pitch to the Product with Carol Saller

After college, Carol Saller says she didn't know what to do and it was serendipity that she was in the careers office when The University of Chicago Press called looking for a graduate.

Carol got the job and didn’t look back.

We discuss whether writers need to hire an editor these days. With software like ProWriting Aid and Grammarly, many writers believe they can bypass the human touch, and we discuss the pros and cons to that approach.

I asked Carol whether it's better to self publish or seek a traditionally published deal, and she talked me through the kinds of books that work well for the indie space and those that work well for the traditional arena.

Carol shares her own journey in publishing, exemplifying just how the industry has changed in the last 10 years or so. 

Carol sold her first books very easily, but now that the market has changed she’s aware her story might not have the same appeal it once did. Having a track record of sales and reviews doesn’t guarantee a book will get picked up twice.

Next, Carole takes me through some common mistakes writers make when formatting their manuscripts, for example not adding page numbers, or trying to make a manuscript look like a typeset novel.

A typeset book is not a manuscript, she says, so don't try to make it look like one. It signifies to the agent you’ve not been through the system and might have a lot to learn!

Towards the end of our conversation, Carol tells me about her middle grade book, Eddies War, which is based on her father's childhood diaries during World War II.

We finish our conversation with Carol telling me what she's working on now, the querying process and where you can find out more about Carol and her books.

This episode is ideal for you if you want the inside scoop on how to find the right agent or publisher.

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How to Start a Novel
How to Format a Novel for Submission
Paragraphing in Manuscripts

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Transcript

Emma Dhesi: 0:00

Hello, I'm Emma Dhesi and welcome to another episode of turning readers into writers. If you're brand new here, welcome. And here's what you need to know. This is a community that believes you are never too old to write your first novel, no matter what you've been up to. Until now, if you're ready to write your book, I'm ready to help you reach the end, I focused on helping you find the time and confidence to begin your writing journey, as well as the craft and skills you need to finish the book. Each week I interview debut authors, editors and industry experts to keep you motivated, inspired, and educated on all things writing, editing, and publishing. If you want to catch up, head on over to emmadhesi.com, where you'll find a wealth of information and tools to help you get started. Before we dive in, this week's episode is brought to you by my free cheat sheet 30 top tips to find time to write. In this guide, I give you 30 ways that you can find time to write in the small gaps that appear between the various errands and tasks and responsibilities that you have in your day to day life. Now, you might be thinking that you don't have any time to spare, but I can guarantee these top tips will give you writing time you didn't think you had. If you thought writing always involved a pen and paper or a keyboard. Think again. If you thought you needed at least an hour at a time to write your manuscript. I help you reframe that you won't be disappointed. Get your free copy of 30 top tips to find time to write by going to Emmadhesi.com / 30 Top Tips. Okay, let's dive in to today's episode. Carol Sandler's book, the subversive copy editor is all about Win Win strategies for editors and writers. A book Publishers Weekly called practical, relentlessly supportive and full of Ed head laughs her middle grade novel Eddie's war was a best book at Kirkus Bank Street, and the Chicago Public Library, and a horn book recommended various narrative. As a children's book editor and long term manuscript editor at The University of Chicago Press. Carol Salar has read 1000s of queries and drafts by writers of everything from picture books to scholarly monographs, she has a careers worth of industry knowledge to help writers prepare their work for publication, she lives in Chicago, writes full time and sings in a choir. So let's delve into our conversation. And she really does have a lot of experience to share with you. Particularly if you are looking to find an agent and you want to go down the traditional route. She really does have some kind of backstreet knowledge, if you like. And we'll give you the scoop on what you should be thinking about how important it is to be resilient, and not to give up something that Carol is experiencing herself. And she's very candid and very open and sharing her own journey to publication. And what happens once you find publication as well. So let's delve in and have a chat with Carol. Well, Carol, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm looking forward to delving in and chatting to you.

Carol Saller: 3:24

Thank you, Emma, I'm delighted to be here.

Emma Dhesi: 3:27

So I wonder if you wouldn't mind just sort of starting off by telling us about your journey to editing and ultimately through writing as well.

Carol Saller: 3:36

Well, it was sort of the other way around. Oh, well, maybe simultaneous. But for all of my adult life I, I have been editing and writing. My first job in editing was a bit of a of a chance, opportunity. When after college, I really didn't know what I was going to do. And I was looking I was in the careers office looking through folders. And I was looking at the publishing folder. And the the attendance are you looking at the publishing folder, there's a man on the phone who has a job. And that was my first job at a magazine. And that's when I was given the Chicago Manual of Style and really could hardly put it down. I enjoyed reading it so much. And I learned how to copy edit there and do research. And the job was fact checking in copy editing. And so it just went on from there. Yeah, I think so. And while I was at that job, I also had some opportunities to write for the magazine. So it also started me on my on my writing career.

Emma Dhesi: 4:52

Fantastic. Fantastic. So let's talk about the sort of editing side of things first, and then obviously I'd love to hear about your own books as well. Is it especially if I think about this modern day, the age of self publishing indie publishing? Do you think that a writer needs to hire an editor these days? If there's particularly if they're not wanting to go down the route is one of the big publishers? Is it still necessary?

Carol Saller: 5:24

I think it's it's a very personal question that every writer has to ask themselves. And I think most writers have a kind of instinct for whether their own writing, whether they feel like it's up to the standard that they see in published work. And, and I would say, if you if you really have no idea, whether you need an editor or not, it's probably a good sign that you do need one, because I think it's probably a sign that you haven't done enough reading in your chosen fields of writing, the more you read books, like the ones that you want to write, the more you'll get a sense of the standard, you know, of the standard of fluency, and, and, or, and other kinds of things. And the more sense you'll have of whether you're falling short of what you think of as, as that kind of book. So another way to tell is if you give your work as everyone should, to friends, relatives, and beta readers for some advice on how they think you're doing, and this is during the drafting stage, when you would be sharing your work maybe with a writers group, you know, or in a group of the kind that you sponsor. And Coach, if you're, if you're getting people, people will usually be super polite. And, but but there's always someone who can't resist pointing out your errors, either your grammar or spelling errors and things like that. And if you get that you'll you might consider that you at least need a copy editor. So there are those two different kinds people who can help you with the overall character development and arc of your story, that kind of developmental editor and then also the copy editors who will help you clean up all kinds of little boogers in your, in your line to line writing.

Emma Dhesi: 7:28

I think yeah, the copy editing or the line editing always makes me giggle a little bit, because as writers were, we're unaware of the habits that we fall into, I think and the common words that we use, we're not always aware of that we might have a repetitious word a lot of the time, and the cop design, editing can really, really pull that up. Some of the things have made me laugh that I've picked up. But one of the things I was curious to get your opinion on, because I hear this from writers quite a bit is, well, I don't need an answer because I've got prorating aid or I've got Grammarly, and that picks up everything I need to pick it up, or I've got a good eye for detail myself. I don't need to hire somebody to do that. For me. My own feeling on that is or that's a risky game. What do you I think that you do need to hire an editor? I think that is a very, very important part of even you know, if you're self publishing, you still need to do that. But have you had that response from people to say, Oh, well, I've got prorating aid, you know, I don't need to hire anybody.

Carol Saller: 8:35

Well, yes, of course. And I agree with you completely. I, I can only point to the fact that for all of my editing career. The books that I've been copy editing are written by people with PhDs, some of them have PhDs in English, and teach language and English and grammar to students. And they still understand that they cannot edit or copy edit their own work. It's just the idea that when you write something, you're working, you're working at a certain level, that is not the micro level of style and grammar, you're not going to necessarily be focusing on whether you put a hyphen in bodice Ripper. On page three. Now that you're on page 95 You're just going to write it you're going to have a million inconsistencies even in spelling of other characters name. People, especially fantasy writers, you know the names, they get pretty wild and if you're not keeping a style sheet, which is another topic that we could talk about. Or if you know you just don't want to slow down it's not your job. That is not the writers job to be keeping track of a million details like that as the editors job. And that's why it's important to hire linemate. You want that? professional quality because readers, believe it or not, some will notice some will struggle with a character's name at the beginning. And so they'll pay attention to it when they first encounter it, which means that they might notice that Wait, is this the same one or I once wrote a drafted a novel where I was well into the, toward the ending, and I realized that I had two characters named Edward. How does that happen? I don't know. But at least I did discover it eventually. So So yes, it it's no, it's no judgment on a writer that they that they need a copy editor, it's actually more of a detriment if they think they don't. It's an arrogance and foolishness that that any professional publisher will recognize in an amateur writer that they feel like they don't need that.

Emma Dhesi: 11:10

So we can account for it whenever Can we just exemplifying the to Edwards? And, but I wanted to use mentioned the style sheet there. So I wonder if you would tell us what is a style sheet? And how, how is it useful to a writer?

Carol Saller: 11:29

Yeah, a style sheet. For a writer doesn't have to be as detailed and technical as the one that a copy editor would keep. But just a simple alphabetical listing of your characters names and things about them, if they have blue eyes, or anything that you mentioned that might that you might contradict later, accidentally. Just keep track of them as you write, every time you you add a character put their name in that alphabetical list. And and then when you're all done writing, read through your style sheet to see if there are any contradictions. And you'll find that that you'll you'll probably find a few things that you need to fix. I also find my style sheet really useful. It's not just characters names, but also, you know, any names of towns or, or anything with a capital letter, you should put in their organizations and this kind of thing. But But I find that useful, because not everyone will agree with this. But I, I find it difficult when I'm reading a book and the character there are characters with names that are similar. I don't want any character names to be similar in in my book, I don't want an Angie and an Angelina and, and I don't even want to women whose names start with a. So in my style sheet because they're in alphabetical order. As I add names, I always choose a name that is different from all the other names and starts with a different letter. And you know, if you get into books that have more than 26 characters, then then you're you're going to have to fudge that rule. But I think I think it's a good rule of thumb to to diversify your names.

Emma Dhesi: 13:23

I agree actually. And more just to save my own confusion, I have to admit, I've worked on a few men with a few manuscripts with students. And either they've got two characters that have the same name, or as you say, two characters was very, very similar names. And I find it quite hard to keep the characters differentiated in my brain and the end up kind of melt melding together. So it's something I agree with you about that, that just to keep things clear and simple. Give them different names,

Carol Saller: 13:51

you can bet that if you get confused, the reader is going to be even more confused. Another great thing about a stylesheet is that you can send that style sheet to your copy editor or editor or later your proofreader. I mean, they will love you for it because it saves them a ton of work and confusion.

Emma Dhesi: 14:15

Good tip there pro tip from from Carol there. So thinking about your experience with the writers that you've worked with and edited for how have you noticed a pattern or have you noticed that some writers are better suited to self publishing? Or are some writers better suited to traditional publishers? How can a writer decide whether to go one route or go the other?

Carol Saller: 14:41

Yeah, here I think it the first question you have to ask is what is your goal? I mean, if your goal is to make a lot of money, or to to, to get books into people's hands Hands, even if you don't make a lot of money from it, whether you want physical books, or whether just ebooks would be fine. And whether you are technically adept, or whether you're going to have to be hiring a lot of people to do stuff like that, how much money are you willing to spend, if you aren't able to do all the pre publication stuff yourself. And I would say that the the best bets for self publishing are? Well, the best bet is a celebrity who already has a big following, you know, because they're not going to have to do that much marketing, their books are going to succeed, probably, in self publishing. Someone who's an expert on a topic, if you're writing nonfiction, and you have that platform and that qualifications to be credible, your your diet book or your master gardening book, or something is probably going to find its audience, especially if you already have an online platform and social media. If you're a writer of genre fiction, in series, fantasy series, or a romance series, even if you're unknown, sometimes those writers can do well on self publishing, because they have the if you have a series and you're doing ebooks, you have options for marketing, where you can sell those early volumes cheap, and, and suck people into buying subsequent books at that higher price. And then the last, the last group I would recommend self publishing to is if you have something that you really don't think is marketable, you just want to see it in printed form on your shelf, or you want to be able to give it even in ebook form to all your relatives or something like that. And you have the money to do it, then then I would say, self publishing is also good for that. Things that don't work very well in self publishing are books that require color, like picture books, they're expensive to produce, if you want physical books, they're going to be expensive to print, which means they're going to have a high cover price. And, or a coffee table book of some kind, that that has color photos. Those that's also going to be difficult and, and even something like a chapter book or a middle grade novel, you know, to do well, with books for small children, small children don't buy books, adults do. They don't read ebooks. A lot of the success of the books that you know and love for children has come about because they were because they were in your child's library or in the public library. And teachers and librarians buy books that have been vetted through the journals, the children's book review journals, there are about five or six of them that are just no those classic Hornbook school library, journal and whatever. And they tend not to review self published books. So if you want to get into the schools and the and libraries, then then self publishing lessens your chance of being noticed in that world. So can you think of?

Emma Dhesi: 18:43

Yeah, yeah, we all if you want to be nominated, if you want to be a prize winner of some description, then indie publishing is definitely not the route to go down, you definitely want to be thinking about finding an agent and getting in with one of the not necessarily one of the big houses, but you want to be with a reputable publisher who is known for publishing literary stories that will end up having a chance of being being paid for it, we put into those prizes. So the thing that would be another one I'd add to that list that it's better to go traditional with,

Carol Saller: 19:21

right? I do. There are a lot of prizes and awards out there now for indie books. And that's something to be a little wary of, a lot of them charge money to enter and they give everyone a prize. So if if you want to go that route, just be sure to investigate.

Emma Dhesi: 19:44

Yeah, but it can be nice on your biographies, though. If you've got that money to spare, and you want that accolade go for it. I'm gonna have those two differences. And what what choices have you made for your own public During career, both for your nonfiction and then for your fiction, what was the path that you decided to take?

Carol Saller: 20:09

All my books are traditionally published, although I have to say they were published in a different era, when the landscape was very, very different. I, I almost never had to submit anything. I the first children's book I published 30 years ago, I submitted it to five publishers, and one of them bought it. And then they just kept publishing everything I wrote, that is not going to happen today. And with my, that, those are my children's books. For my adult nonfiction book, it was related to my work, and I worked for a publisher, and they encouraged me to write it. And, you know, I was, so there was that, that support all along and, and kind of a foregone deal that that they would publish it. And that one was about that was in 2009. And that since come out in second edition. And, and has done very well. So now though, I, I would like to go back to writing children's books, and I'm finding it very difficult to get my foot back in that door.

Emma Dhesi: 21:33

That's interesting. So even though you've got a proven track record, if you like, with a traditional publisher is still not an easy shoo in for you, you've still got to go through a few hoops as well.

Carol Saller: 21:48

Well, that's right, the, the original publisher of years ago doesn't publish the kind of thing that I'm writing now. I'm looking, I'm writing middle grade, and they are mostly picture books and mostly nonfiction. And the publisher of my most recent, my young adult novel, these war is, is retiring. It's a very small private publishing company and and Steven Roxburgh is retiring and he's reverting all the rights to the writer. So I even have to decide whether to whether to let that book die or publish it myself. And it's one of those very quiet historical fiction books that got lots of starred reviews, and it's on the best lists at Caracas and, and Bank Street, but But it hasn't sold many copies. I don't think any other publisher would pick it up. And I, I'm heartbroken, I really don't know what to do.

Emma Dhesi: 22:55

I think thank you for sharing with that with us, Carol. That's a very vulnerable thing to share, especially, you know, I can see that you love this book. And it's been a big part of you. But you've exemplified there for us, I think that publishing is ever changing. It's changing faster than it's ever changed in the past, the last what, since around two thirds around 2009 2010. Since since Kindle launched, really, the face of publishing has just changed dramatically. And what we could take for granted 10 years ago, we can't know. And I think it's just really useful for new writers just to be aware of that and not for it to put anybody off, not for it to feed anybody's dreams. But just to go into the publishing world with your eyes open and know that, yes, oh, my goodness, the excitement of writing our first book. And we think once we've written the book, that's it, we've done it, it's all great. But actually, it's just the start of the story. Finding an agent is just the start of the story. And there's a long way to go beyond there. So I appreciate you sharing that with us. And just kind of giving us a heads up that we the book itself is just the beginning.

Carol Saller: 24:07

Yeah, but you know, if you've finished a book, you're way ahead of a lot of other people and new books are published every single day. 1000s of them are, you know, 1000s and 1000s are published every year. So there are lots of success stories. And and I think the main thing is to define what you think would be success, and not be not be disappointed if your success is different from someone else's.

Emma Dhesi: 24:33

Yes, 100%. I think we don't think about that when we're first start writing. Certainly I didn't. All I was concerned about was Can I finish this book and then can I get it out into the world? And it's only allowed to leave I realized I've got to set this definition for myself. I've got to set my aspirations for myself. What do I want from my writing? Is it just to put them out in the world? Is it to get five star reviews? Is it to make an income? Is it to find And a publisher, whatever it might be. But I think the more you can put that thought in at the beginning, it will just make it a little bit smoother for you as you go forward and you hit those bumps in the road, which, you know, inevitably, inevitably you will we all do. And so, talk to us a little bit about the different types of publishing houses that there are, is it indie publishing, and the big five are the big four? Is it now it might even be the big three now? Is there anything in between? What are the different levels that people can consider publishing with?

Carol Saller: 25:39

Well, sure, there are a lot of smaller presses. And and in some ways, that might be a better bet, depending on what you're publishing, I think I think every writer has to do has to do their own research where you go online, and you Google something like publishers of dog stories, or publishers of cookbooks, or whatever you write. And, and start looking at, at the mid level ones. If you buy a book, something like Writers and Illustrators market, which is also available online, you can do some searching in that buy category as well, or go to Amazon and look at similar books to yours and look at who published them. There are a lot of different ways to start researching, who might be interested in, in what you're doing. And a lot of those smaller presses don't necessarily work with agents, you can submit directly to them. So Oh, might be a better option for for some people.

Emma Dhesi: 26:50

Yeah, definitely. And so do you just send your manuscript into those small presses? Or is there a process to that

Carol Saller: 26:58

there's always a process and, and the first rule is always to research what the process of that publisher is by going to their website, and looking at submission guidelines, which will be on every single publisher website. And a lot of them now use online forms that you fill out where you put in your bio and your experience or not experience. And, and you, they'll tell you how many pages you want to dump into the box. And you submit it through that kind of software, that's very common, others will say, we'll give an email address and ask you to attach something or others will want you to paste into the email and never attach anything. So it's very important to look at their guidelines, they usually will say, We will not even open an attachment or we will not consider someone who emails us instead of using the online form. So they're usually pretty strict. And, and, you know, it's it's, it makes it easier for the writer, if they just tell you just tell me what to do.

Emma Dhesi: 28:10

And will they also tell you how to format the submission that you're you're handing in as well,

Carol Saller: 28:15

they will usually give if they want physical, well physical by that. I mean, if they want attachments, if they want Microsoft Word documents, which is almost always that or a PDF is what they're going to ask for. They will probably give some minimal formatting requirements, you know, they'll say one inch margins, double spaced page number on every page. And this kind of thing, but, but there's a lot more to formatting, a professional looking manuscript that a writer would do well to investigate. And it's actually something that is my expertise, preparing manuscripts for submission. And there's a, there's a blog post that's free, you can look at called how to format, how to format my novel, or something like that. It's at the Chicago Manual of Style Blog, see moss sharp talk. So if you just Google that, that'll give you a default format that's absolutely standard throughout publishing. And, of course, if any publisher expresses a preference for something that contradicts that you would follow the publishers preference, but but my format would give you a good default format to work with so that you can just make a couple of tweaks if necessary, for sending it to any agent or editor

Emma Dhesi: 29:44

with as a highly useful resource you've given us there. Thank you. I'll make sure I link to that for people. And so that's one of your areas of expertise. Do you help writers with that currently, and is that something that they can hire your services for?

Carol Saller: 29:58

No, I don't I don't actually have any services that I offer offer. Other than speaking, I do public speaking and, and conference speaking and webinars. But no at all. It's all free advice. So at my website, subversive copy editor, you can find a lot of advice for how to get your manuscripts into shape. And everything that that I have published at the Chicago Manual of Style Blog is double posted on at the subversive copy editor. So that's actually probably an easier place to find it. So if you go to the subversive copy editor and click around, you'll find plenty of plenty of good advice on on Grammar and Style, and ways to format.

Emma Dhesi: 30:56

Okay, brilliant. Well, I'll link to that. And so I'm curious. In your years as a, you know, longtime manuscript editor, what are some of the more sort of common mistakes or errors that you've seen writers make that are easy fixes for people who might be at that stage now? Oh, yeah.

Carol Saller: 31:16

Well, there, there are a lot of easy fixes, I would say. Failure to put page numbers is one major mistake, this really only becomes a problem when an agent or an editor asks you for your full manuscript. Up until that point, you don't really have to worry about it. But to make it a habit, every time you start a manuscript is just a good idea. There are a million reasons why, in the publishing process, someone might print out part of your manuscript, or in some way need it need it need the page numbers. So doing that is very important. A lot of writers try to make the mistake of trying to format their manuscripts to look kind of like the finished product. Without understanding that before a book is published, it's not supposed to be pretty, it's ugly, it's double spaced, which is, even though there's there are fewer and fewer reasons why an editor or an agent, or a publisher would need that, because of changes in technology, it's still the tradition, it's still the convention, it's still absolutely the default. So just do it just double space. And of course, the books you read from the bookstore, they're not double spaced, it's just a completely different thing. A typeset book is not a manuscript. So that manuscript, another very important thing in a manuscript is that the sides, the margins are not straight, the left margin is straight, but the right margin is ragged. And a lot of writers will choose that straight sided look, because they think it looks better. But in fact, it's just agony for anyone to read a manuscript that spends where the word spaces are all over the place, because some lines have fewer words than others, and they're stretched out and other lines are squashed to make it line up on that right side. So just don't ever and you know, an agent or an editor, all they have to do is select the whole document and click left justify. It's a it's a 10 second fix for them. But but they've already said to themselves, this person has obviously never been through the publishing process before, they've already made a little judgment, that you're not as that you're going to need more advice, you're going to need more hand holding, and they have 10 other manuscripts that are great stories that look great. So which one are they going to move ahead with, you know, it just pays to control the things you can control? So that someone reading your work isn't distracted by those little gaffes and can focus on on what you're saying and what your story is about.

Emma Dhesi: 34:22

Is quite terrifying, isn't it? Those little things, but it's so true as human nature, we do make those unconscious judgments about things. And as a new writer, we want to make sure we make it as easy as possible for an editor or a publisher to say yes, so a really good tip there do not justify the page. So thank you for that. You've taken us through some really great tips for editing for formatting, and what to look out for when we're when we get to that stage of process. But I would love to talk to you too about Have your books and your stories. And one that you've mentioned is your middle grade novel, Eddie's OBOR. So I'd love it if you could tell us something about that.

Carol Saller: 35:11

Thank you. Yes, this book is very close to my heart. Although it is fiction, it was inspired by some diaries that my father wrote when he was a boy, between the ages of 12 and 18, that I never knew about I didn't know until after he died. And his wife sent me the diaries. And this was, they took place between 1942 and 1949. So World War Two was in there. And he lived out in the country on a farm, a farm that I grew up visiting Grandma, you know, my whole life, I still visit the farm, although now the generation younger than me lives there. And in the diary was filled with, with amazing information and detail about those years, that, especially farming information, which I didn't grow up on the farm, and I didn't know I mean, I was 20. Before I knew that, when they talked about growing corn and beans, they meant soybeans, I always thought they meant green beans. So, so this, this diary gave me the kind of authentic detail that I could put in my book about a boy growing up on the farm during World War Two, all have the, you know, if I needed if I needed any kind of detail about what he was doing at a particular moment on the farm, if I needed teenagers to be doing some farm work in June of 1944, I could just go to the diary and read. We were in the calf pasture cutting Mullen and I don't even know what that means. But it just would go straight into the book and, and the efficiency of that, rather than trying to Google what would teenagers be doing on a farm and 19 in central Illinois, and I mean, you, I couldn't buy that kind of research. It was an amazing resource. And it also ended up giving me I'd say there are about 70 or 80 little scenes in this book, vignettes. They're not chapters, it's, they're more like slices of life. And, and about six or seven of them, come right out of the diary, I'll give you, I'll give you just one example of a snippet that I read in the diary. My dad only wrote a couple lines a day, very short little five year diaries, but but one of them that he wrote said, this afternoon, we dug four little foxes out of the hill at Murrells brought them home and put them in the silo pit. So I, I was able to make a story out of out of that. And many others that that I think, not only provided some drama, because what happened to those foxes was pretty dramatic, but also made the book very personal to me. And when my rent life, my father, of course was already gone by the time it was published. But his his brother was able to read it and, and all of my cousins who actually grew up on that farm, they really enjoyed reading it as well and pointed out a few errors.

Emma Dhesi: 39:04

Of course, okay. So it was lovely. So sounds like there's sort of a series of interconnected stories about that period of time that Does that sound about right or?

Carol Saller: 39:16

No, it's actually there is a central character. Edie is is he's the, the narrator and he's in every scene. But but it pulls together a large cast of characters from the small town and farming community. And it's Eddie's older brother goes off to fight in the war as a bomber pilot in the Pacific, you know, and, but the book is about the boy who stays home and it's a coming of age story. It's kind of one of those he's a quiet, thoughtful kid who reads newspapers and although there is haunting and and Sports and, and a little romance, something for everyone. And a lot of drama because of some strange relationships. And, and. And mysterious arson fire.

Emma Dhesi: 40:19

Okay, so a lot of drama going on. Yeah. And so what are you working on at the moment? Because I know that you write full time. So what are you currently working on? Well, the only

Carol Saller: 40:30

thing that I'm, that's for sure I'm working on is that I still blog once a month for the Chicago Manual of Style. But then. So that's my only professional work. For my writing, I am, I am still full bore into middle grade. And I have, I have three finished novels that I would like to sell, and my struggles over sending those out, trying to even find a strategy for finding an agent, I've done so much homework and so little submitting that I really need someone to take me by the scruff of the neck and and force me to send these these things out. But even just deciding, you know, is is it a mistake to send out more than one at the same time, those, those are hard decisions to make. And now I'm back to a strategy of only sending out one and not to too many agents at one time. And yesterday, as long as we're, it's the confessional. I had the world's record rejection, I sent out my query, it took me an hour to tailor this query to this agent and fill in her online form. I sent it out at 4:54pm. And at 5:09pm, I got the form letter reduction.

Emma Dhesi: 42:00

Oh, it's heartbreaking. You know,

Carol Saller: 42:04

I think it was actually better that way. I laughed, my first response was to laugh. I just pictured her say, Oh, get it off of me. Get it off of me. Get back. And I thought well, she saved me. You know, why not cut to the chase. The longer someone has your work. And some of you know, there's some radio silence involved here I sent I've sent it off to some agents who just have not replied in a year. And so I marked them as closed. But that's always in the back of your mind as a little dangling thread, you know, loose thread, just to take her off the table. I feel like I didn't have time to invest in hope.

Emma Dhesi: 42:57

Okay. Yeah. Agnostic approach. Yeah. No, no, I can move on. Yeah. And it's a numbers game, isn't it with the looking for an agent and selling selling a story really is a numbers game. And we, you know, when we're at home submitting, we don't know, what kind of a day that agents had or what else has appeared on their table in that week? What else they've got coming out in the near future? Will our story tie in with what they've got? Does it fit their brand and what it is that they're trying to put out? Through their press? There's so many variables, we can only I think you said it earlier, you can only control what you can control. And we have to remember that.

Carol Saller: 43:37

That's right. And and when you said numbers, I watched a webinar a few weeks ago on rejection. And it was very helpful. I almost didn't watch it. But then I thought, Okay, I'm experiencing rejection. Let's see if this will help me. And it was amazing. First of all, though, I have to say it was a little traumatic, because in the lead up, I signed up for it a couple months ago. And they kept sending me reminders for this webinar. And every time they send a reminder, in my inbox there was in the word rejection in all capital letters. You know, that's that wasn't good. But um, yeah, the panel, it was a panel of very successful writers. And they all they all Well, first of all, they told how much they've been rejected, which is always reassuring. I mean, they they've been rejected dozens and dozens and dozens of times. But the one that really struck me was a writer who said that for the last five years, her goal has been to query at least once a week. She sends 50 queries a year, and she said her response rate is about a Um, she gets about five responses. Okay, asking for asking for the manuscript or for more, not five acceptances, five responses that asked for something and I thought, I haven't even sent out 50 All together. And here she sends, she has literally sent out hundreds of pitches, so, and others, of course, you know, you can, if you've attended any of these conferences, or whatever the published writers will say, you know, this book had 70 rejections this book had, they say, don't stop till you've had 100. Don't lose heart until you've had 100 rejections. And until you've had those rejections, you haven't really given your work, its chance. So the critical thing was not just to send it out to 100, publishers, or even 20, or even 10. The critical thing is that every time you get a rejection, you refine, and revise, and, and up your game. And it's through that process of getting better and better. And not just you're not just to improve your pitch, but also to go back over your first five pages, 10 pages, 30 pages, and refine and improve and upgrade those as well. And every time you've been away from it for a while, when you get a rejection, and you reread, read it over again, all of a sudden, all the bad things in it jump out at you, you think, Oh, why did I say that? This can be better, this could be better. So So it's that refinement that will ultimately lead to a better result.

Emma Dhesi: 46:50

Well, that is a wonderful place to end, Carol, I think that is you know, a good positive note there just to keep refining keep going. And before we say goodbye, though, please do. Let our listeners know where they can find out more about you and your books.

Carol Saller: 47:05

Thank you, I would start at CarrolSaller.com. And it will lead you to everything else. There's a link to my books and buy buttons on the books. So and then there's a link to my blog where there's all that free advice.

Emma Dhesi: 47:23

Fantastic. Well, again, I'll make sure I link to those in the show notes. Carol has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time today.

Carol Saller: 47:30

It's been my pleasure. Thank you, Emma.

Emma Dhesi: 47:35

Well, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you find that helpful and inspirational. Now, don't forget to come on over to facebook and join my group, turning readers into writers. It is especially for you if you are a beginner writer who is looking to write their first novel. If you join the group, you will also find a free cheat sheet there called Three Secret hacks to write with consistency. So go to Emmadhesi.com / turning readers into writers. Hit join. Can't wait to see you in there. All right. Thank you. Bye bye