The Future of the BBC | Notes for the Next DG

What does the future of the BBC look like in this new decade?

As the BBC’s Director General, Lord Tony Hall, announces his departure in the Summer, we discuss the challenges facing the BBC and whoever takes over in the role.

A mid-term review in 2022 and a new charter in 2027 will be preceded by a consultation on decriminalising non-payment of the licence fee.  Issues facing the organisation are numerous.  From equal pay and licence fees for the over 75s to diminishing younger audiences and its very funding model.   The BBC and the next Director General will need to decide what type of organisation Auntie wants or needs to be.  There will plenty in the next DG’s in-tray. 

Roger Bolton and a distinguished panel discuss, debate and digest the challenges facing the BBC and give their notes for the next Director General.

Chair
Roger Bolton, Former BBC executive, journalist and presenter.

Panel
Patrick Barwise, Emeritus Professor of Management and Marketing, London Business School
David Elstein, Former ITV, BBC, Sky, C5 executive, Chairman of openDemocracy.net
Alice Enders, Director of Research, Enders Analysis

Producer: Philip Barnes

Transcript

spk_0:   0:00
the RCs London podcast tax were. Actually, it's always

spk_1:   0:04
nice talking cupping in the beginning because you never know what's gonna happen to the end as you've gathered. I'm quite old from that description record. His broadcast is quite chicken, but I'm thrilled to be here tonight. I want to congratulate the artists on the timing, which is impeccable on this. Also that the fact they've got together, the distinguished panel they have. Andi, this is going to be a learning experience for me, and I don't think it could be three better people here tonight that to learn from him or my immediate left is Alice Enders, who's director, researchers. Enders analysis, Which is more about broadcasting anybody else For my David Edelstein, I don't how to introduce any used to the edge of this week, but one souping subsequently it Sky Channel five And he's being a broadcasting irritant and iconic last for as many as long as we can think, always worth listening to on and on The far left and I toe make any political suggestions. That is. Patrick Paralyse, who is professor off the London Business School, was also involved with the L. D on a number of occasions. I've heard him speak. Now we really should call this. Why the earth would you want to be d G money in the world to pay you, but we won't ask the question. What we're gonna try and do is to look at the entry. If you like that, the d g, the new DJ went upon his face it And so we're going to do three things tonight are gonna try and do three things first ways to look at that broad entry in that sort of timetable to look then at the factors that come into play and then three being political well, technological obstacles, opportunities, audience behaviour on then three. If we're lucky, find some suggests a possible strategies for incoming director general. But across that strategy will depend upon politics

spk_2:   2:02
and other things of the individual appointed not to say the

spk_1:   2:05
chairman. So that's what we're trying to do. And I will try at the end of each section to bring him in for questions. Were supposed to finish about now on our five minutes, but we might stretch it by little more than that. So let's Sze get ahead and look at what's coming up, I suppose the two things that are coming up even perhaps before the d. G is appointed the new duties appointed is the decriminalisation off people who don't pay the licence fee, followed by at the same time the BBC enforcing the payment of the licence tree by some over 75 who have not previously paid it, which would be great fun. So those two things are there. The new chairman will be appointed in 2022. The present chairman has been told he will not be reappointed. So the new chairman. So they paradox, and some people think that's why, of course, Tony Horrors stood down a year before he wanted to do so. I want to so that the prison chairman can appoint someone he wants in the job before new chairman comes. But of course, a doo chil fire. New DJ. So there we are visitors that that and then the charter itself and in 2027 we're about to your missed him into a mid term review of that on. Then there's a thing which really slipped my attention. I'm just going to ask Alice about this for the beginning is that as a result of coming out ofthe the European Community, we will no longer be part ofthe the Eurovision Audio or responsive to the Eurovision Audio Visual Directive hand in any negotiations over a trade deal with the United States. Theis, you off access to bridge markets will come up. Alice, will you explain the issues involved in that? Why the Eurovision Audiovisual directed matters And if it goes one of the possibilities and whether you think the US government will be pushing for greater access to our markets.

spk_3:   4:20
Well, first of all, the little Visual Media Services directive will cease to apply as of 2021 when we come out of the customs union and so on. And of course, we have already lost a very big business, which was the TV channels business. You know, London was used as a hub to broadcast all over Europe. You know, the localised versions discovery so wanted someone, so we were lost so that that business which was about £1,000,000,000 of exports every year, So this sort of handy for the dowry payments. But anyway, then, of course, there's the regime of works quotas. And as you know, all the licences of broadcasters here require them to observe those e works quotas. The Audio Visual Media Services directive is, of course, the framework for that. But those quotas go back longer. They go back to the conventional transfrontier TV 1989 counsel off Europe. That document that framework, we're hoping, will preserve our access to the market because you never includes audio visual media services for culture, generally in any of its trade agreements. It has never done so and never will. So my coming out of the single market we will lose our access, formally speaking. But remember, this convention it doesn't have a secretariat isn't doesn't have a needle framework. But we can just hope for the best, let's say. But then, of course, um, the issue for us is that the US is insisting that audio visual be part of the scope of the trade agreement. And all of this is in the public domain, because that's the way US trade policy works. All the industry's sign up for the wish list It becomes an enormous wish list and, of course, the UK it's fragrant innocents coming out of the U has no appreciation of the process, the mechanisms and how. The how the mph the Motion Picture Association of America has been after this agenda have taken down what they claim is European cultural protectionism. And the ample has even told the UK in this very nice letter. Public domain again once make the UK poster child for the kind of audio visual provision that would like to see in all future trade agreements of the U. S. Also you, Kal Seater. Listen to that in that way. But you can also hear there's a menace underneath, which is the MPs has told, whoever wants to listen that they will lobby against the US UK trade agreement unless we fold. And I must say you feel so unusual, that is, since the Brexit vote, we've had a lot of MPs pulsing about Washington, saying, Well, you will do anything but anything, just anything. So we'll take the chicken will take the beef. We'll take the pesticide residue containing cereals, baby food, Children's food. We'll just take it all because that's the price.

spk_1:   7:46
But how will this do? It might be directly impact on the BBC and create problems for future DJ.

spk_3:   7:53
Okay, so obviously the BBC has been in fenced because the m p A will not go after the BBC. However, the fact is the creative economy is going to be very dramatically transformed once they're no more. You works quotas to be observed. People in the commercial area will tell you that this has created a two tier system of pricing whereby UK content it costs 1000. Just just making it up. But basically UK content cause X for the broadcast window and US content, which is in secondary distribution, costs x divided by five. So that's what's gonna happen. We're gonna have a market economy in the audiovisual sector gnome or licence obligations of all that. But you know, the fact is, aiding weight by 2025 or whatever this agreement is ratified 2023. You know there will be so much transformation already, but all of that is going to impact. The relative position of the BBC will become alone in safeguarding British nous. Nous

spk_1:   9:02
goes hold at that point out sort of trip because David, I could see disagree. What do you disagree? Well, I buy Addis is passion. I think the MPA will have zero impact on anything there already the last 24 channels solely broadcasting US material in the UK Thie off calm licence requirements of the public service Broadcasters are separate from although they reflect thie European quotas. But thie quotas have always bean, in a sense, voluntary in the UK for anyone other than the public service broadcaster type. So before his 90% imports, even channel for is already 25% imports. Every morning is just back to back. Are you serious?

spk_3:   10:00
You think that's a good thing I am I doing here? I'm talking about protecting the production of British contact.

spk_1:   10:08
There won't be any problem because Thie only used to the worry about Is the imposition off you quotas on streamers? Well, that's never gonna happen in the right lung stop anyway, I don't think it's a big issue, Okay, I told, but it's certainly not a sector now in total agreement. At this point, I would like to say that it may or may not be a major issue for the incoming DJ, but he certainly needs to think very hard about it. Let's park that for a moment. Let's look at another immediate issue that he may inherit, which is what he's inheriting. Patrick. A situation in which I think you told me earlier. Well, you tell me what the V A V estimates the cut

spk_2:   10:56
chickens leave view on. They're going to publish this in a couple of weeks. If you look at the net public funding off the BBC's UK services. In other words, licence people some grants minus the top, slicing to pay for other things than in real terms. That is, inflation adjusted terms. It is 25% less than in 2010. And that upset a 1,000,000,000 you. It's 25% down. Yes, I think the other way to look at it is to say that if it had the same real level of funding as in 2010 it would have a 1,000,000,000 Mohr. Therefore, when we look at the market trends which are goingto bring us toe, which is to do with technology and younger viewers and all of that on DH, increased content costs increase distribution costs. If it had the 1,000,000,000 that it's lost, it would be able to invest in content and services for younger viewers and people new technology without having to cut certain. So this is a traditional service. So it's

spk_1:   12:08
had that net loss of 25% in 10 years. It's implementing cuts will now relating to the past licence fee agreement. They started director news thiss morning about the cups they are imposing on another two million in total. That's gonna have to impact on DH. Then we come to this problem. The over 75 on DH David. It seems to me that the BBC has vastly underestimated the consequence off BBC representatives switching off significant numbers of over 70 fives or rather penalising them if they don't pay up. How How on earth can the BBC handle this? Well, I'm confident that they know exactly what they're doing. They always do that forbids through very, very clearly. Uh, I'm anxious but confident. Essentially, it's a BBC blew this five years ago as and when they I signed on for the over 75 of the responsibility for the perceptive, they should have said back in 2015 it'll finishes June 2020. There will be no more free TV licences. We go back to 2001 when they were first introduced on. Everyone would have known that there had been years and years of preparation on my late mother in law. Would not have Bean threatening to go to gaol rather than pay the TV licence, which he thought an outrageous imposition on her life. That she can afford it with new here or there was just the principle of it. The serious problem is this on. It's twofold. The BBC has got itself into the welfare business. It is operating a means test. It's a Kardashian. The government put it into that situation. It's a bit unfair. Could've easily said on what they should have said in 2015 is it's all over. Come 2020 there will be no more free TV licences. Get ready for him. Instead, they funded and function of fudged. It left it for 3.5 years, then did a lengthy confrontation and then came up with Siri's of really bad choices and shows one of the really bad choices to meet James. Three million homes who won't be who will still be important hearing for their life. The letters have really started going out, going out, lost last, anybody's eyes tohave unpredictable impact in terms ofthe loss of revenue slow down a revenue because the BBC depends on cash flow from the licence field being paid in farms on the horrible PR that potentially could arise if tens of thousands off elderly people are suddenly invited to turn up Magistrates Court. So study. Don't cut to the chase for the new D G. Let's assume he's coming in or she's coming in in a situation with dreadful publicity, a really concern about cash flow. Is it conceivable that a new DJ could say right way will stop that We ourselves within the organisation will find the money to fund those over 75? We're proposing to take that That's another £500 million a year on those Patties really fed. The BBC is spending his drop, but the equivalent for £1,000,000,000 in the lof that I think thie interesting political situation is that it's a card in the hands off dominant coverings. Bo Jo, whoever you think is playing this particular game, do you want us to get you off the hook, which we could do for a couple of years? If you agree to X Y and Wei will pay. The government will pay If you wouldn't object, right? What for me is the worst ofthe situation because it's the biggest. He's got a very weak taking the 500 million. It's not exactly fun, is it to compound the situation? If I may come to you with this, we've got this drink de criminalise ation decriminalising consultation, which is supposed to last for eight weeks. It's strange, in a sense, because I think the numbers of people who were prosecuted in the courts are something like 10 or nine eventually got five people went to Prince I people got prison. This is the nature of the problem for not seeing the fire, so you can have an in principle objection to it. In terms of clogging up the courts, it's more difficult to make

spk_2:   17:12
that 10.3% of the magistrate court's time is a great deal of misinformation about.

spk_1:   17:17
Okay, if the government were to say at the end of the consultation, we will decriminalise non payment off the licence fee. Have you any idea how is the financial consequences that for the BBC

spk_3:   17:32
well, we have some estimates in the public domain that our date from the last time. You know, you know, this thing comes and goes like away. So the in 2015 I think both the political parties have d creaming their manifestos. And I think that from that perspective, the political situation on Craig is daunting. For the BBC, my hope is that the incoming G 1st 1 to get back to those estimates there's an estimate of about the level of evasion ST going from 6 to 12% let's say 10% for the sake of argument. So let's say hit of 200 million. I think the principal e can understand. I'm an economist, So I love you know, this kind of technocratic discussion. But I actually think that in this particular instance, it's not a technocratic discussion but a human one. And I'm thinking of the over 75 in those households and the situation around D criminal. And I think that this is where the incoming DJ will have to be brave and perhaps instruct the TV licencing authority that the criminal aspect Khun be turned off in situations that demand and command it. I'd love to see a DJ ing that has some instinct that the BBC should be responsive to its core viewers, many of whom are over 75.

spk_1:   19:05
But if you do, I don't how you estimate the cost, because if people know if they're sending Roger Inexistent happy with us and you know, let's no figure confined it in the Perry Review from five years ago. And there's a very simple little graph that you can draw D Criminal, I think means three different things you can you can de criminalise but still have ah penalty Fine for not paying. You don't go to prison for not paying that fine. You go to prison for something else. So if you treated it like a renewal of your TV L a licence. Twice as many people went to prison for no pay a fine for not reviewing their TVs like that before council conservation went to prison for tax for not paint. If I thought the BBC, the only thing you can do is you can make life more difficult for the BBC, increase their costs at the margin with still a penalty off a fine and potentially imprisonment of the decriminalising. That offence doesn't decriminalising no payment. I was trying to get it was how not to forecast and hit on the BBC finances here because he did. But do you believe that load of 200 million? If you take that with confession decomposition, the one that leaves the penalty still in place for non payment of a fine adds to 196 million to their costs through a mixture of evasion, increased evasion and increased costs. The thing that would be a killer would be if it were decriminalised on DH. It became a civil debt which required quantification because at the moment, nonpayment of your licence TV licence is an absolute defence and it's a snapshot defence. In other words, if you spend one minute with a piece of equipment that can receive signals and you don't pay licence you're guilty on, there's no medication. Under a civil debt, the BBC would have to measure its loss so it would have to have a time span from rent a win you were in a vada. This is almost impossible to administer that have tto have tens of thousands of people monitoring behaviour. When did start? When did it finish? Didn't finish. Did they go away so that would effectively unplug the licence for you completely. It would become a voluntary fee. I would be really surprised if this decriminalisation review went that far, but it's just another piece off posturing by an incoming administration saying We've got sticks toe wield as well that there is a part of a negotiation,

spk_3:   22:02
but I don't think that's a legacy. Uh, it's a legacy. What happened between Tony Hall and winning Dale and I was born in that room. Okay, apparently grade to take the cost on. And that's what people are saying.

spk_1:   22:18
You're one of people, only one left standing now. Sure that Sweet Dale was back in office to look after the BBC. Do criticise anything. Sorry. Do you disagree with anything we've heard about Humanising? What, at the very least, is giving an incoming DJ another financial headache on probably a public relations one as well.

spk_2:   22:36
So there's no question it is both, and it is, I think, deliberately both her head the way. What we haven't actually got is a specific proposal, Asar as I can see what the cream would mean this time. A very good question is to say that this was reviewed by Perry, commissioned by conservative minister less than five years ago. There are two reasons why you might say Okay, well, we despite that, we're going to do the opposite of what he said. The first is if you think Perry got it wrong, which is not what they're saying. The second is, if you say, are the world has changed so much because of Netflix and all that. That what Perry got the exam question. He got the answer right after the exam question there. But we live in a different world. So what you're then arguing is that these poor people can't afford the 43 pence a day for the licence fee. But they can afford superfast broadband on the smart TV or a laptop on Netflix and maybe some other monthly subscriptions. So, no, I don't marry out when it didn't actually say, Let them eat cake. But if you if you dig in in so far as there is any rational logic behind this, since they're not saying very got it wrong, the question to ask is Okay, why does Netflix mean it may have got it right then, But you hold on. I'm

spk_1:   24:01
going to seal off that discussion because I've got so much to go through from will come back to it if I may. I'm just at this point interesting about the entry that the new DJ is gonna get on just before we go onto the talk about some of the factors that will influence Hiroshi in the future. Let me just deal with this question off. A new chairman at the DJ is gonna be The new DJ is gonna be in, uh, in the job for what? Years at the most, before he gets a new chairman appointed by this government, which will undoubtedly appoint a chair broadly in sympathy with what the government finally decides it wants to do. So. What do you do? Is a new DJ. What's the point of talking

spk_3:   24:45
to Theo? Get ahead of the game in your bold and you're brave in the one year you have with David,

spk_1:   24:52
and then he comes in and in disagrees entirely is the government isn't what you're proposing to do and you're fired. Well, but then you see,

spk_3:   24:58
this is your being

spk_2:   24:59
are agree with Alice. But this is all in the context of realpolitik. a case of the Sunday Times quotes sources at number 10 Storey, which I think probably will you. But you got into show here. Okay, So sources at number 10 way don't know the extent to which he was flying a kite on the extent to which he actually meant it. But he immediately got a backlash from from backbench MPs saying You know, this wasn't in the manifesto on DH. You vote storey lose Radio two is not a good look. So I think a really important thing for the DJ to do sort of immediately before the new chair comes in is be bold. But also Tio Tio, make what makes these guys realise they are actually playing with fire. Okay, I'll collect those of us who care about this. Our collective task is to get the great British public to realise what is going on on what the consequences might be on DH. Then there could be a massive backlash. They are taking a big political risk if they do what you're describing, which is to put in a henchman who then fires a DDG after a year that is not politically riskless. Well,

spk_1:   26:19
okay, continue. Could come to you If you were DJ something you should have, Bean. But if you were you put a year before any chairman is appointed who is likely to be into sympathy with Well, we'll go on with what the government wants to do if we can try and work it out. What? What can you do in this year? Well, you've got to set up a whole range of options and you've gotta have game plans and you've got a plan A, B and C, and you've got to cost. Um, you've got to work out the practicality. You've got a test that little waters for each of them. You've got to begin to probe what is really going on inside governing party. It is. I mean, as Patti says, it's quite a broad church. There are plenty of people in the Tory party who adv Ireland and sympathise and indeed empathise with the BBC on. Then there are the headbangers eso you've gotta figure. I don't think declaring war on Thermal Cummings makes any sense and I don't think that's the right way forward. You've got to make clear that you're in control off all the options upside and downside so that by the time a new first arrives, the last thing you want is a do Cassie or a Lord Hill who is only there to fire if you're Alastair Milne or or going all the way back. Hugh Green. ITT's ironical that one of the candidates for GG is actually the granddaughter of Lord Hill. Who's that? Carolyn Fairburn would actually be an excellent person, but David said that I'm sorry, Caroline, I George stood killer champs, loads of excellent. But seriously, essentially, you've got to take the temperature off. What is going on? Roger says there's lots of beat challenges, this financial organisational, editorial, technological and pull. It s so you gotta have a person who, Khun, get across all of those. But it's not a case of needing your colours that Mars and saying what we're going to do, what you're gonna do That doesn't work.

spk_3:   28:42
I don't think that one of the real challenges for the BBC is to navigate the post Brexit world and the storytelling that's associated with it, because I think that the attack on the BBC really results from the fact that in a land where there's impartial, impartial news and current affairs. You know that the BBC relied on a lot of expertise that many people in government do not appreciate. For example, the fact that you know there are all sorts of very complicated issues, there's fishing rights issues. There's huge conflicts around, you know, all sorts of things. But that will test, you know, us. And so, you know, I think the challenge for the BBC, I would say, would also be to look at what it is like to be in a post Brexit world into it. And to look at this is is as you know, if the BBC, in my view, stayed totally away from Brexit because guess what? It was toxic. But even by staying away from it because it wasn't in favour of Brexit, he was seen as part of the enemy part of the establishment for the suits that are. You know, many people think of the BBC has a huge propaganda machine. They don't realise that. And 10 people that work there, actually, you know, sound engineers and technicians and all that that stuff. So I think there is also the storytelling challenge for the BBC and the impartiality of news and current affairs, you know, how do you address How do you train the situation In a way that doesn't make the person in number 10 go

spk_2:   30:20
bonkers? This's an opportunity as well, in case of the Brexit has a project. Okay, it was a sort of black sheet of paper. I don't think they thought they were the win the Referendum, and therefore it's extremely vague about what's gonna happen this year next year. This is sort of gradually crashing into reality. However, you see one of your view of all that one part of that reality is the shopping list from the U. S. Businesses and what they want sort of out of the trade deal, which is, as you say in the in the public domain, I think actually broadcast is quite a small piece of that. But you know,

spk_3:   30:58
it's multi sexually everything, and we have to take

spk_2:   31:01
their rubbish Phillips to begin. The other thing is buccaneering Britain and all of that. The soft power matters is the fact that this is a very successful, not very successful sector, which is also part off the creative industries which are very successful. So Bodo needs to be persuaded. This is actually part of a post break. How

spk_1:   31:21
did she hold you at this point? So I don't keep trusting and forgive me, but I just want to make sure we cover the charity. I want to look now at the political will and what we can make of the different signals coming out off this. You will always see almost we know about the the the article in the Sunday Times If it wasn't from Dominic Cummings, it's remarkably like everything he's been saying for 2004 who almost literally word for word if you go back and change his views, given credit for consistency. But he says, we are having a consultation and we will work it. BBC If you look at Julian Nights and he used the newly elected chair off the backbench de CMS committee, you got a job partly with his M with the backing of MPs because of an article he wrote in which he said he wants a proper root and branch review of the BBC to help it find a new model and a new role still special. But on a more level playing field specifically he said. Theo BBC needs to gradually phase out the licence fee, make the BBC more responsive to the public, open up its budgets to external talent on DH Paul Goodman, who is runs or is the chief commentator in conservative home, which is, it seems to me, a very good, an accurate reflection of conservative thinking. I wrote an article saying The choice facing the cooperation between change or no change, but between one kind of change and another and ultimately less money, plus the right reform on, then they go into more of those things. So how do you judge David the political? Do you think that John Whittingdale we know is well informed because of his period? Six previous experience is on the right wing of the party but understands the difficulties of the problems that are coming forward. Do you think there is a big argument to be had within the government? Or do you think it's now possible to see the broad outlines of the guns for this government's approached the BBC onto its future? Well, I finally mentioned Winning Tower because hey was much maligned when he was appointed a secretary of state and turned out not to be a pussycat, but certainly not the enemy of the state that many presented him as. And I think it's interesting that, hey, he should accept a junior post at department. He usedto run, but be that it's the minister of state in this area. But David, I read that Big Grace has been getting BBC.

spk_3:   34:09
He's in charge of training

spk_1:   34:10
trade. Well, he's a minister of state who has huge experience. It broke off. It would be remarkable. But Boris put him in there not to have an influence on this matter. And John has got very good connexions with various swing to the Tory party, and he knows that there are different strands here. There are those who want to break up the BBC because of its scale and scope and dominance, etcetera. There are those who I worry that the BBC is far too dominant as an editorial voice was too big a share of news consumption. There are those who think that the BBC is an entrepreneurial enough hasn't made a big enough splash in the world with its I P. There are those who think that it would be better off to be divided into different grouping. So radio, television, production, distribution, UK, TV, whatever I'd be These are a ll different Trans. And then there are those who dislike the licence fee for a number of different reasons. Um, on it, in a way barely worth spending out all those reasons, but got it all unified around. Couldn't we please change the licence feet in some way or other? What does loads of ways you can replace it with a lift on council tax you could wear such coast will do that. If what you're saying, I just want to get this sense that, you know, when there isn't a clear policy. And I would just say if the BBC can be lucky in its friends, let it be lucky in its enemies. So if Dominic Cummings is shouting the roof off, saying We gotta work on the BBC, that's good news that I've heard that born Goodman again and want to. Others have said the likely outcome less money reform on the reform is likely to be fewer BBC TV stations, a reduced number of radio services, a scale back website, more more production and more BBC out of London on DH. Interestingly, more spent on the world service on that's the outline he put forward is that, uh, let me put you think this is my list list. It's a list. Dallas. It's not a credible is. Is it possible Doubt to even guess at the shape of the government policy wonk, which will eventually evil

spk_3:   36:40
way, actually have safeguards. Thes. Okay. And let's not forget there 22,000 people that work for the BBC and they must not be appreciating the daily attack of their life. It's so I couldn't say another challenge for the dgs have demoralised staff issue. And because one of you is a very large organisation, very few people ever

spk_0:   37:12
will be running an organisation of 22,000

spk_2:   37:14
people and operations here, there and everywhere in the U.

spk_3:   37:17
S. And so on. And that's why you know, we think that people are looking at a DJ who, as you say, you might have some comprehension of attack and some comprehension of of your challenges of adjusting to do transfer distribution mode. So I think you know, there are lots of new MPs. The BBC has

spk_2:   37:41
lots of support. Those people I worry. Those peas are going to

spk_3:   37:45
become Attackers when the over 75 line up in the constituency offices, you know, showing the letters. Okay. And I think this is something that people don't understand is going to happen for

spk_1:   38:00
sure. Okay. Could I just then look, att? Way talked about. We don't know what the comet is going to do. We know the broad direction, its aggression on the speed is gonna go there. But are their technological obstacles to what it might want to do? You hear people

spk_2:   38:16
say our subscription, that's the answer. But they're very significant technical problems at the moment. Our

spk_3:   38:22
preview. Everybody knows that

spk_1:   38:25
it's completely irrelevant. Nobody is saying that public service content should go behind a paywall, least of all most events. Richard will be illegal to go behind a table. The early version ofthe subscription that is being considered is on entertainment package from the BBC, leaving all the public service content to be funded from public funds. What say a reduced possibly reduce licence fee reduced or replace but a subscription. But this couldn't apply to radio it. All radio would have to be funded out of public funds. The witness now. So when? So when? You know you can Ideologue, Who says go to subscription and he's sitting down saying, How do we make this work? The answer is it can't work for radio at the moment. Talking projects. They simply have ever gone through something. You tell me before, you just have. You are now. You've got a right wing Tory that wanted to subscription. What do you sit down? Tell them

spk_2:   39:25
you ask them. Tell me what you what You mean this is very similar to Brexit? What is it? You Can you please, When people talk about it, they actually forget about radio and all the other stuff. You know, they literally don't make the connexion. So they think we talked about BBC TV. There is the issue off. Obviously you have toe. You have to have conditional access technology on every reception device. It is debatable how big an issue that is. It's truly a surmountable one. It might cost a bit more if you try to surmount it quickly. But it is an execution thing. David thought a lot about this on DH eyes. One of people think it's actually rather a small issue But supposing you could just do that on every device capable of delivering BBC TV had conditional accessibility. You have that? Okay. You still got another car crash on your hands? Firstly, because you gotta pay for radio, et cetera, et cetera. But secondly, rather simple question. Which is How would you price thiss you could cut the BBC and the pieces is that Well, this beats this. We're gonna call this bit public service. We're going to get what we've said, which is, you know, inform, educate and entertain. And the fact that there's actually creative industry and the same programme does Mohr mohr than one of those things. So you don't get this sort of issue of shouldn't do strictly and all of that. So you've got those options, but let's keep it really simple. That's the cost of a single bundle on a single price, which they've never actually come out and proposed. Because we're talking about people like the IAEA, which is essentially a sort of religious organisation, which doesn't have to sort of, you know, see what you actually proposing. Broadly. Supposing you say we're going to pitch the price at the same level as the licence fee. The truth is nobody knows how the market would respond. What we do know is your overheads would go up a lot. Just look at skies. Annual reports. Die is not a badly run organisation. It has very high. But I was exceptionally running one. You know, even it's not quite as well, right, David, But you can't have a TV without not only conditional access, but also marketing and customer service on a

spk_1:   41:56
bear in mind. The sky is the technology company Not really a content company. I mean it does telephony broadband yl kinds off platform management making programmes is very small part of his business. When I was director of Programmes that sky, I was probably number 33 in the pecking order. Okay, that is the budget. They will

spk_2:   42:24
you David, that is completely irrelevant to the point I'm making with my body. I was

spk_1:   42:33
running the BBC and I think at this point because I think at this point I have to reality to adjudicate. I mean, in the turns off the technological, I really haven't finished. Okay, so I think I'll come back to you. I promise you that. I knew he must move. I'm sorry. Positive cash, Right? Right. Got that? Now, is there anything you want to add about the If you like technological issues that you think those who wish to talk about subscription another well, I have not considered

spk_3:   43:02
so way all know that the eyes will turn immediately. Of course, that's a gate of old that service. And of course, you don't need to have to fiddle a bit with. But of course, the fact is that would be another car crash for a different reason. And that's because we all know that to the extent of the BBC's viewed by young people. And may I say I have one observation in my household who's who's militant groups. He's 16 anyway, he you he'll only watch BBC online, right? And he for him. It's just a surface saying I clear this or that. He has no idea of you know this that the other you know, start with minute Netflix next Amazon, etcetera, etcetera. And then he goes, and he comes up against, you know, again, you know, and of course, yes. You know, we are having inflates and so yes, way subscribe to you. See what the point is for the average young person that the BBC Lou wants to hang onto. That's a clear colonel. My point is, so free view has a legacy for us. And let's just say that people act like freezing was 1000 years ago. It was no 1000 years ago, years ago, and it was a very nature effort to get a lot of elderly people to switch over to freedom, to understand what the opportunities were. Many people still don't, but I don't think that we should look at this is a sort of, you know, picnic issue. Conditional access technology is no picnic issue. It's It wouldn't unfortunately believes his voice will be heard.

spk_1:   44:40
But I want to go to the set. I promise I'll come to your questions after this next section. Forgive me. I'm just trying to complete what we're about. The final thing I want to talk to explore with you, however, is what the audience is doing because the DJ must look at the figures for what young people are not listening or watching aunt think. What on earth can I do about

spk_2:   45:00
this? Because if it continues, this is exceedingly difficult issue. I mean, could you just Dallas give us an indication off how much of a problem the BBC has with its absence? Younger audience.

spk_3:   45:15
But it has a problem that is relatively larger than channel for Okay, thank thanks. The Lord's Voice Channel, which you worry, but also the TV. I mean, I wish I had spent, you know, another 20 years studying this, but the fact is that young people have a lot of opportunities to do things with their lives that don't involve being couch potatoes. You know anything? Okay? It's always been viewed that there's a life stage transformation, you know, You know, you kick up your heels for a little bit. You go a lot out to the cinema because it gets you away from your invasive parents and allows you to commune with your friends. And then you eventually get married. You have a stag night ahead night. And so what? So what? You All these things that you have to have you settled down, you have Children. The Children become exposed to see BBs. You love it. You become a supporter of the BBC. You start to actually enjoy family entertainment because you've got Children, which we would like to encourage people to have thes life storage transformations are really important in terms of the support for the licence fee and an understanding of what it's actually giving. Okay, people said TV's only cause 30 million to me. So why does David Clementi frightening to close it down last week? I don't know. I think he's chairman of the BBC. Anyway, It's an interesting

spk_1:   46:47
choice. David, you went out on this point about thie. Wayne did what

spk_2:   46:51
the DJ will face in terms of the desert desertion, off absence off, increasing absence of certain audiences.

spk_1:   46:59
But you just have to read the off com reports on the BBC from October of last year. That was the thing uppermost in Off comes mind the inability of the BBC, apparently to get to grips with the loss of the younger audience, both for Player, where I think I fared disappearing off young people's agenda. 65% of the muse Netflix every week, 26% from the eye player that's going down rapidly. I think 30% drop in new situations in radio, although BBC sound is being launched, let's do a huge loss off radio listening. Even as commercial radio listening is going up on DH, you've got a real problem with the average age of the BBC audience for TV, which is 61 which by sometimes a stupidly young but by others is worryingly old, especially if half of them are about to be sent a letter saying, I go to gaol. So it is, but I don't think it's an existential problem. I think it's a progressive issue on DH. If all part ofthe how does the BBC adjust to the reality's off the audience it is attempting to address, even as it deals with global challenges on the realisation that all the top drama productions are now being funded by U. S competitors, All Sky Class brother, they got creative issues in amongst the organisational audience and financial. One last question at this point, and I'm going to the audience that that Alice would follow up on this in terms ofthe Netflix and so on. Would you explain to the judge I don't understand which is Netflix, eh? Is not making a profit. It's investing staggering sums. It's not being a prophet. Presumably that's alright in business. If you think you're going to get to a

spk_2:   49:16
position of such dominance that you could then start up in cause that's the claim? Yes, yeah. At the same time, Disney and other organisations have said, Oh,

spk_1:   49:25
that's very interesting. In fact, may be the Premier League is thinking, Hello. Do you need anybody between

spk_2:   49:31
us and the public? So we think of Netflix or Silver's talked about Netflix as it's a new, almost permanent reality. Is it not that the truth is nobody knows the markets. The financial markets have been backing it, but thie elastic may break. I mean, the truth is nobody knows that whether whether it's going to be a car, I'm still Do you agree with that? Sorry s fault. This is here to stay. So online broadcasting is here to stay on DH. This's what I come back to. The 25% real cuts. Part of the DGS job is to get the public to realise that what you've got is increasing riel costs of content on distribution because you have to have the old and the new. You have to pay for both types of network at the same times its costs. It is funding has already been cut by pretty 5% before the Quran. Before we have a rebellion about about the over 75. Okay. And so what you want is for the public to understand what is going on. If the public understands what is going on, then I think the political costs took toe. Continue protecting BBC become very high.

spk_1:   50:47
Alice to Teo. What's your view about the future of next fix? Nothing's which we in regard to semi permanent. Now

spk_3:   50:52
I would go with you semi permanent indeed permit. I mean, I think of course, we all look at the power we're seeing that fences up our U S. Capitol. Let's face it, okay. And end will see that we're tiny, puny next to the United States. And believe me, we're going to be informed about that every day on the way. It is just the tip of the iceberg, but so I think that, you know, in person. And I think that what is this comes back to the question of initially asked, which is Do we care about British content? Do we care about British voices? British storeys? Do we care about that? I thought people cared about that in this place, and I'm very surprised that we're exceeding here, talking as if the BBC was expendable. To me, the Netflix model is totally the stick. Netflix has no mission. It's their answers to its commercial shareholders. That's what it's about. Look at the British content. It makes you know and look at the quality and the scope and so on of what we have now. And I fear

spk_1:   51:57
for the 15 drama series in Britain. At the moment, I'm gonna double that

spk_3:   52:04
direction. Of what people with the BBC. I teach Children, but that's a fraction,

spk_1:   52:10
sadly, not true. I keep hearing broadcasts 100 hours of drama, Yeah, off originated drama BBC 150. Bear in mind. There are 72 streaming services in the U. S. Netflix is just one of make up sex. At this point, if you'd like to withdraw your applications for the director general of the BBC, you may do so what I want to do for the remainder of the time we've got he's happy. Ask whatever questions you would like for the expected 20 minutes at the end of which I'm gonna put these three people on the spot and say they are the future. They've just been appointed the new DJ. What's the 1st 3 things they say? I know it's wrong, Right? Okay. What I'd like to do is pretty hand up. Please. If you ask a question on DH if we say you are on DH, I'll take one front one, then one of the back lady there. Yeah. Could you Could you identify yourself and also say to whom you'd like? The question? Yep. Keep speaking. We'll see. Mark switch. You've got switched on the mic. Okay, stand up and shout.

spk_2:   53:27
It's a good room. I need to The BBC have joined eight months ago. My question mainly is around the fact that there are lords of the lords of conversations going on about a subscription based model, as we've just discussed and considering the pitfalls involved Do you think an ad funded model is on the cards

spk_0:   53:52
in the future while we get to keep thie life licensee as compulsory

spk_2:   54:00
for news and current affairs, but at a much lower cost to the public. So

spk_1:   54:05
he was suggesting if you keep news and current affairs without any advertising, it all but elsewhere Introduce advertising. Do you think? Would you introduce it everywhere other than news and counter

spk_2:   54:15
France's answer? Yes, and my point is everybody out there using current affairs, including sport. You have an advertising funded model. There's news and current affairs sticks to a mandatory licence fee, however, at a much, much reduced rate for public Sally. First

spk_1:   54:30
of all, I wouldn't raise Would that raises certificates of money even if you don't want it to happen. What it raises significant money. What it bankrupt the rest of rich television? Well,

spk_3:   54:38
I think that's the point way. No TV revenues for the last couple of years with Brexit situation. All that course feature is troubled for TV advertising revenues. R V is that there's only a certain pot, right, so the plants only gonna be chopped and changed in a different way. We think that the current situation is the ideal because in publishing the TV or channel for for the benefit of the BBC will bring their scale of activity down and will hurt all three. To be honest, there is no building, you know, people talk about sponsorships. Maybe we could have I did a car manufacturers sponsoring strictly. And I said, Excuse me, are we talking here something really serious? And I would say Police, Let's not go back down that track Talking about advertising there just isn't I

spk_1:   55:34
do disagree. If not, we'll go on to the next question. Justine Waters Advertiser would have to be absolutely at the market in radio. It's slightly odd. I used to be chairman of the Commercial Radio Companies Association on DH when it was mooted that Radio one of two this's 10 years ago, might be spun off and ad funded. There was a mixed response from the owners. Yeah, quite a few of them. But well, this will in large thie radio advertising market make it more interesting. Give Mohr different propositions on. Suddenly, people will move some of their budgets from three other media to radio unproven, but it's a possibility in TV. I think it would be a failure. Okay, just now, thank you very much.

spk_0:   56:27
The question Hello. Having read an article in the Spectator this week suggesting that BBC emulate the Japanese broadcaster

spk_2:   56:36
N H k. Could any of you speak Teo any comparative international public service broadcasting models that strike you as interesting in view of this debate or off any historical examples off such funding being withdrawn or reduced. That's a big question in H K, of course, gets more public funding than the BBC. So one of the numerous bits of misinformation about the BBC is it's the best public, that best funded public service broadcaster in the world. I think the most interesting example is actually what the Cyprus TV or Cyprus broadcasting that C Y B C. Which was set up by the Brits in the 19 fifties. Wass funded rather cleverly by a levy on your electricity bill, which is extremely clever because it actually gives you conditional access because you know, you don't we have justice cut off. But it's also progressive because large, rich families, you know, use more electricity. By the way, you can't watch TV without electricity, so it's actually rather good method. For reasons I have not discovered in 2000 the politics of cycles were such that they stopped doing that, and it's now paid for out of general taxation. So I think that they're actually quite a few lessons to be learned. Clearly, the really interesting one is Germany and now on DH, now Ireland, which is? I think that to me the licence feet linked Teo. Ownership of a TV set is an anachronism on DH. What we really need is a proper review, which looks at all the options. My forecast is that advertising will get thrown out very quickly. Be cock threw it out for two reasons. There are two additional reasons. They didn't even think about a CZ well, so I think appetising is an absolute no no won't be discussed. Subscriptions will be looked at closely and then thrown out. But I think then you will end up with household lady like in Germany

spk_1:   58:42
without go to that, David knows. Could you see other? Any other broadcasting models? Are broadcasters out there that we should really look at examine their systems in terms of financial? It sounds off, they think in terms of finding in terms of finance. I'm the latter's fears, kind of slowly receding across Europe and is being replaced by a number of different things. A levy on uplift on the equivalent of council tax is quite popular in European countries. Bear in mind our European countries with life is fees twice the UK licence feet. Switzerland has no daily mail. 20 of unpleasant people in a poll taken attack. E I don't think these are finery choices. The key issue is how do you find public service content? How much of that do you want the BBC to live up on? How should that it be funded Should it'll be funded out off the same pot I BBC puppets over content on anybody else's? How should you organise it and should be run on a contestable basis, rather

spk_2:   1:0:00
TV talking like an economist And I don't mean that in a nice

spk_1:   1:0:03
way Public service programme I look to is actually in Sweden because I think S V T is better organised than the BBC, not least because, as BT radio is completely separate from SBT television. So you have to editorial inputs there who are independent of each other. But broadly speaking, there's not a lot of men h k. Other than that when they went down one off the decriminalisation options evasion rose from 4% to 25% was rather along to Alice. Could you agree it all prospective candidates? The DJ shoot should now be booking their flights to Sweden.

spk_3:   1:0:49
Well, may I just point out that we're actually talking about a very large geography where there's no question that public service broadcasting has an important place in society. All we need to look is that the US to see the opposite. Alright, because of course, nobody's mentioned looking at their regime. But actually I would say that he is actually one of the issues that we have here. I mean, what is this supplying demand of public service forecasting that this country is prepared to fund and finance on a very long term basis and one that is independent of interference from the politicians of the day, who will always seek to make the BBC either arch enemy or an arch ally.

spk_1:   1:1:34
I'm sorry we have to move on next question. Yet

spk_0:   1:1:36
my question or do I work for used to work for the BBC. I work for an Australian public broadcaster now called S P s on DH. My question is actually going got getting onto the politics rather than the economics because I think in the dgs entering should be how how the BBC confronts a far right government who is for ideological reasons. Attempting to control thie independent and impartial information resides in the BBC BBC GG is as I understand it, the editor in chief of the BBC as well and I think sometimes that rule is not taken gets lost in this debate around funding. And I think what happened in the referendum on DH three years of the referendum is that the BBC lost the trust of the public because ofthe week management in news which I didn't do things that way. Now no, I have come to pass in terms of confronting lives from one side on. I think that the BBC DJ does need Teo take on board the fact that a large percentage of the population now doesn't trust the BBC.

spk_1:   1:2:52
Well, can I just ask you that Patrick, through this, what to you? Which

spk_2:   1:2:55
is Is this the inevitable result of a divided society? They used to say the BBC. If the country's divide the BBC's on a rap on the rack, normally there's a consensus somewhere in the middle that will be broadly supportive of the BBC is the lesson of Brexit. There was no consensus. No one will be satisfied. The BBC made mistakes, but it was always gonna make enemies. Well, it's happened twice. It happened in 1926 with a general strike on then Brexit is the other sort of really toxic thing. The extraordinary thing is you're wrong. The extraordinary thing is you're wrong. There's constant efforts to persuade the public not to trust the BBC have failed. The rather good analogy is the football referee in which people on the right think the referee is, you know, bast against them and people on the left think they're every is biassed against them on their roughly equal numbers off them on That is, despite years of trying to persuade the public not to trust the BBC. So one of the things we'll see in the annual report on it this is a thing which, if you like, exaggerates, thiss. But if you ask the question, which one media source would you goto for accurate news that the BBC is, to my knowledge, only once had a serious problem with accuracy and that was coming after Sabol was then the senior Tory who was accused of being a Peter file and they got the storey wrong. But in nearly 100 years, There's been virtually no evidence based attack on the BBC on accuracy, the attacks from impartiality, and the extraordinary thing is how they failed that. The BBC is by far the most trusted media source in the UK on DH the newspapers, which are constantly attacking it our way down at the bottom. But, David, do you think it's less trusted? It may be the most trusted, but is it less trusted? Let it wass

spk_1:   1:5:01
any meaningful, not statistical time. Yeah, I mean, it's margins meet seventies or the low seventies ahs Patty said. It dipped into the sixties immediately after Sabbath. But again, if you read the off com report on the BBC, it found distinct public unease with the BBC's editorial output largely is results off the referendum and post referendum coverage on Personally. You know, I think the BBC is pretty good, but occasionally just makes ghastly errors. I think it was, you know, the Cliff Richard affair was a terrible mistake, and that nobody got fired. For that is a horrible condemnation of the BBC board on DH. You know, letting Andrew Neil Harang. Boris Jabe screams for illegal as well as on Wythe just think of the several things the BBC put. Not only did they support the decision, they brought the coverage up for not IUs award on DH. Thank God, Theo. Yes, but I was on the battle. Stopped it. Um nose. In other words, he wasn't just immediate. What? We can't drop this president. It it wasn't continues unawareness. What? Let me give you another personal insight then. But after the Cliff Richard affair, when the judge issued at the most excoriating judgement against the BBC executive after executive rubbished of course the judgement Tony Hall took it upon himself. Say the judge, I got the law wrong. Hey had personally turned down an offer from Cliff Richard to drop the proceedings in exchange for an apology. Mac cost will be busy. £2 million on then BBC Radio Today Programme twice telephoned me to see if I would participate in discussion about the Cliff Richard. Our judgement Andi each time asked me Do I support the BBC's position on the difference in there? And I said no And each time I was disinvited. So you know when you get it wrong a reef. But it still trusted. What question I'm afraid before we have to close down and we have to ask these potential DJ candidates for their opening speeches, Peter, and then please leave video.

spk_0:   1:7:37
Okay, I'm Yoke Croft allies, and I have just big a book which answers these questions goes on, you know, a definitive way available from Lord Penguin, But not just

spk_2:   1:7:50
yet. Another book is being written, edited by John Math. Which field of chess is the same way? Carry on, which is what we

spk_0:   1:8:02
might call an anthology very cover

spk_2:   1:8:06
after the advertising. What's the point? The point is this. I think it was

spk_0:   1:8:10
David who said one of the important thing was about next DJ is that he should choose his enemies. Wives, shoe, all she said. Sorry he or she was She was there. Should choose that enemies wives. Now, I don't know how many of you here know about the Wayback machine discovery off what Dominic come in said about the BBC in 2004. But your hands up, How many of you know that thing?

spk_2:   1:8:46
That's basically what it said in the 2020. It's

spk_0:   1:8:48
clearly and it's it's not right. It's a sort of like it's a bit of a policy, well, things. So get yourself up that learning curve, because in defining the entity that is the definitive document, you get it from a combination of the garden and the Indian in 2000 for a bigwig, don't it? Coming, said the BBC, is the mortal enemy off the Conservative Party, not humanity, not working task people behind the Red Line off the Conservative Party and therefore it should be destroyed in any other words. He went on to define how you should do it first. You should discredit it online in 2000 for that was a rather advanced thing to say, but he described how you two do it. That's because he knew a lot of American lobbyists being doing that sort of thing was modern in England. Second, he said, you should have Fox Near was in Britain. How very modern that wass. Third, he said that you should have a lot of a phone in right wing radio stations with Russian about type shock dogs, and fourth, you should have paid political appetising. You let the man on pay political appetising. Now what's that? What those things clever too, if they were repeated in the context of the new discussion. If the d G, the new DJ, he she it were to bring it up forward are those clever thing was to say in a British context, Is that choosing your enemy well,

spk_1:   1:10:38
I think you self selected himself as an enemy long ago, and I'm sure the incoming teaching his nous or her sinners will be a path. If I take a take a bet, I don't I

spk_2:   1:10:52
think there's no chance of Dominic Cummings being in his prison job in two years time. He's a very convenient figure for Johnson to test the waters to extend the

spk_1:   1:11:01
pressure. I would be if I didn't wear your assessment is I would be surprised to be

spk_2:   1:11:05
last, of course. And in the end, if Johnson follows him all the way to do the short term, he's a very significant figure.

spk_3:   1:11:12
And I think you know the point. You're crazy, which is really a fundamental one, is is it's the one that's right next to the question I raised. What is the supply and demand a public service broadcasting? Because if the jobs, if the demand for zero that all we have is a market economy. Give up the impartiality of current news of current affairs and news. You know, we just had a very major find £75,000 assessed on on a talk show radio around that you That's the George. Yeah, And that's the kind of environment that people think, you know in the United States, as you know what US food standards are ideal us. Immediate policies, ideal. Everything is ideal, their copyrights ideal. Everything's ideal. So should we just surrender to the market economy? And then I say to you, Let's look at that scenario and what will the supply British? Okay, we'll see. Maybe that's not the most important question, but it actually happens to be important question to me.

spk_1:   1:12:11
OK, Final question. Sorry. By the way, where is the book published

spk_2:   1:12:21
August The Sixth, Marquis Diaries. August 6th

spk_0:   1:12:25
may be too late, right? Eating pre order. You can preorder it on Amazon. You don't weigh mind me. Turner and I work in marketing strategy of wet with a number of different businesses over the years. My question is this. How does the incoming director general of the BBC manage and improve on the BBC's brand, and I use that word because I mean that, and I don't mean message. The brand of the BBC is what I think has been lost and thus the confidence off the end user Who is the customer? The reason Aston Martin is a great brand is not because the people who drive Aston Martins think that Aston Martins are great. Reason. That Aston Martin is a great brand is because everybody from a six year old boy, 106 institute man or woman think that Aston Martin is a great brand without the confidence of the public, the BBC cannot claim to be a big, great brand, even though it may be the producer of great programming to the issue of Brand, which is what people think off the BBC is actually paramount. You know, if the BBC has a brand problem, doesn't matter that has a Boris problem or atomic cannons problem. The brand problem is the existence of this

spk_1:   1:13:51
task. You put it back to you, but you imply from that that it had an exceptional brand on it now has damaged its browned. How, in your view, has it damaged its brand?

spk_0:   1:14:01
I feel that I think that one person can answer the question of Brand brand is essentially a question that you are asking

spk_1:   1:14:08
off. But your question Presupposes that the BBC's brand is not good enough

spk_0:   1:14:13
because I think that discussion even 10 years ago and I was a media journalist about the BBC, the BBC was a prominent voice in positive things. I think if the BBC will run their own internal customer satisfaction and brand awareness, you ask a 16 year old I don't think you want with my 16 years to think about the conversation about criminalisation, the licence fee and the fact you know those are not the brand, it is less relevant. Then it ought to be partly because I think it has no itself launched a discourse about its value to society. Father,

spk_1:   1:14:47
do you think the BBC does not itself know what it

spk_0:   1:14:50
is that the BBC has absolutely well, No, I don't I don't speak with me, but I think that in order to be able to express your brand, you have to understand what job do you do for a customer that helps the customer progress through the things that matter to them? I think if you cannot articulate that, I didn't know what I hire radio for to do for me. Is it Teo? Tell me what's happening in the world, is it? Give me another lecture on gender equality. I don't really understand that The's concepts requires clarity, and they were quite clarity so that everybody can understand them. And I feel that that's what isn't isn't isn't clear to me from the BBC.

spk_1:   1:15:30
Finally, I'm going to move from that street to the closing the box because that's an issue that they have to address. So, Patrick, let's start with you. You are appointed. You meet the press and you talked to the BBC stuff on the Ring main and also to the public. How would you pitch it? What will be the key things you would say now that you are going to be DJ for a sum of money? Maybe slightly more than Tony Hall gets at the moment, but vast less than you could get.

spk_2:   1:16:00
First thing is how the hell did this happen? But that's not so fast. Girls over that I think it's not likely. Number one is well of things that that is mentioned which is he has toe Joshi or they I have to study the ship internally on DH eso. There's a pure internal leadership task, which is sort of urgent. And, you know, there's quite a long agenda. The gender pay back along all of that Number two, which I think is absolutely crucial. Several of the questions I have sort of implied thiss the thing which the politicians will respond. Toe is losing their seats, right? Therefore, it's about public opinion now. Actually, I think the BBC brand is in much better Nick than you're suggesting on DH. I'm someone who thinks that with the great majority of brands, the main driver of brand value is customer experience of the product or service, you know, sort of like Toyota. And then there are some minor exceptions, but they are actually fairly minor. Andi, I think the BBC this's something which is consumed by almost everyone for an average per capita off 18 hours per week. All right, this is it is the consumption off. This brand is a completely different scale from Tae Coca Cola. It's two orders of magnitude bigger than Coca Cola. So the British public one reason why these efforts to persuade the public not to trust the BBC have been so unsuccessful is the BBC The public has enormous experience off the products that this organisation is providing. It is an infuriating organisation. I gather toe work for aunt to deal with and I have to say to try and help us Well, you know, I can show you the bruises. David has even more bruises. I believe that I have from that so communicating the issues in an evidence based way to the British public that if you look at what the backbenchers said after Cummings was let out of his heart briefly last Sunday, if you look at what the backbenches then said, then they said this is going to lose us votes. Okay, so the key task is to communicate the genuine choices. Now, I think the BBC has failed to do that. I think that the research they should have done about 3/75 would have bean. Okay, supposing we do what Johnson and others have said we should cough up ourselves. Okay, That's 745 year. Here are some shopping lists off services we could cut you, then run some proper one day workshops with around 100 people citizens workshops on you. Get them to make the tough choices to say, Here, here are the cuts you could make okay, and then you communicate to the public. That's what we're talking about. And then if we only have cuts of 245 million because we're limiting it to households in which there's at least one person, probably when we talk about the over 75. Remember, this is households any household with one or more people aged over 75 regardless of household size or income that could be three investment bankers in that household, plus one of the ground is okay, so this is incredibly badly targeted, so numb. Task number two is communicate to the public what's really going on and what the consequences will be. And I think that the government is actually playing with fire in a way that the back benches are fairly aware ofthe. Actually, Widow is aware of it as well. Again. He's very right wing, but he doesn't really know quite a lot about Haydock knows a lot about the industry on DH as a sort of devout Thatcher, right? He also follows what Thatcher did about advertising, which she did appoint a right wing economists and various other people. And she did for the recommendation on that needs into my third action, which is rather than doing this, circling the waggons thing and trying to defend the licence fee, which is increasingly indefensible. You say OK, let's have a proper review of the long term funding options. We've got licence fee until 2027. Unless we agree with you because it could be part of the The pretty Council will back us. If we agree a new funding method, let's have a proper review. Let's look at advertising. Let's look at the German system. Let's look at subscriptions. That's look ATT next funding, which I think is a no no as well. And I think the BBC should be much more confident about the results of that. Those are my three actions.

spk_1:   1:21:02
David, are you applying this time? Well, I'm told I can't be selected unless I applies. I chose not to apply my job with the BBC. It was for chairman, and I'm often to interview, which was very sad. Maybe they'll change their mind this time. One more interest, hasn't it to you about that? But we weren't all right, But you are now DJ and this mythical world standing up. What you're gonna say three key things. I'm going to say two things. One is I quote a famous rule of the world Gun fire to the right of me and gunfire toe left from the extra forward. On the other is to quote from one of the BBC's most precious creations, Private Jones. Don't panic a ll. These things are manageable. Cool car consideration will get you through most crises. The Tory party will be doing its thing. But what Patty says is quite right. Lay out the issues, have a proper open public discussion. Leave everything on the table. There are no red lines. Let's work out what's best for public service broadcasting on DH at the same time. What's best for the way we run the BBC now, this first of all, start off by saying I'm the first female DJ and about time too. Then what do you say?

spk_3:   1:22:36
Right? Well, I do think that you go back to studying the ship, but I also think that we need to be thinking about the word independent. If I was the next G, I would start by saying that I treasure the BBC and its independence. And I would seek to leverage that independence to an extent that has previously not been perceptible. Because I think this is really fundamentally on issue about our BBC versus their BBC. And I think you didn't you you little shark it and dress it up in processing. And, you know, have these daft consultations from D C. M s where you're supposed to cheque? Yes. Do you Do you agree it's wrong to put people off course. That's what we're getting now. Is this pathetic processes that are, you know, whatever they're dressed up to create predetermined outcomes. So the finals, the next t j would definitely say that I would explore the independence because, you know, some of these alternative funding mechanisms will give the BBC and independence, and that's an interesting idea to pursue.

spk_1:   1:23:43
Well, thank you very much. I am not with you. I'd like to get one. Thank you very much for not leaving. Thanks very much for being so tender for the questions I want to apologise to the pattern from railroading him a little bit. But thank you. For me, it's been a considerable education, so I

spk_0:   1:24:05
thie rt s London podcast.