This week on the PRmoment Podcast we talk about what CEOs want from PR and we also identify the 7 top attributes that CEOs want in the comms directors.
The folks at PR recruitment firm VMA have recently interviewed 20 CEOs and today we’re going to chat with VMA’s MD Lucy Cairncross about what she’s found out about CEO communication priorities.
Thanks so much to the PRmoment Podcast sponsors of the PRCA.
Here’s a summary of what Lucy and I discussed:
2 mins What are CEO’s current priorities?
3 mins Are UK CEOs more brow beaten than their international counterparts?
4 mins The top 4 CEO concerns: International stability, economic turbulence, political changes and environmental commitments.
6 mins What do CEOs want from their PR and comms teams?
“Comms is central to the quality of response to those issues.”
“Previously comms was a side thought, now comms is at the heart of the big issues from the very beginning.”
“The breadth of responsibility that comms people have within organisations is now vast”
“Successful organisations will have strength in comms”
12 mins Why are CEOs still struggling with their organisation's home, hybrid or office working policies?
16 mins The impact of the speed of organisational change on the priorities of the CEO.
“Organisations need to adapt to survive…for some organisations, their raison d’etre will no longer be viable.”
18 mins The focus and challenges the CEOs are experiencing in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DE&I)?
“DE&I requires constant attention across all functions.”
21 mins PR people should sell T-shirts with this message on them:
“You cannot be effective as a CEO without a trusted communicator by your side.” Robert Swaak, CEO, ABN AMRO
24 mins How internal comms went to the forefront of CEO priorities during COVID.
28 mins Are in-house PR and comms folks retaining the increased breadth of responsibility they gained during COVID
“The expectation is the same…but they aren’t necessarily being given more headcount and more budget”
32 mins Are comms directors now more important than marketing directors?
“Where they aren’t aligned and where they don’t work together, those cracks really show”
“They are aligned functions but not the same function.”
35 mins The 7 top attributes that CEOs want in the comms directors:
41 mins Lucy reflects on the current state of the in-house PR jobs market.
This week on the PRmoment Podcast we talk about what CEOs want from PR and we also identify the 7 top attributes that CEOs want in the comms directors.
The folks at PR recruitment firm VMA have recently interviewed 20 CEOs and today we’re going to chat with VMA’s MD Lucy Cairncross about what she’s found out about CEO communication priorities.
Thanks so much to the PRmoment Podcast sponsors of the PRCA.
Here’s a summary of what Lucy and I discussed:
2 mins What are CEO’s current priorities?
3 mins Are UK CEOs more brow beaten than their international counterparts?
4 mins The top 4 CEO concerns: International stability, economic turbulence, political changes and environmental commitments.
6 mins What do CEOs want from their PR and comms teams?
“Comms is central to the quality of response to those issues.”
“Previously comms was a side thought, now comms is at the heart of the big issues from the very beginning.”
“The breadth of responsibility that comms people have within organisations is now vast”
“Successful organisations will have strength in comms”
12 mins Why are CEOs still struggling with their organisation's home, hybrid or office working policies?
16 mins The impact of the speed of organisational change on the priorities of the CEO.
“Organisations need to adapt to survive…for some organisations, their raison d’etre will no longer be viable.”
18 mins The focus and challenges the CEOs are experiencing in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DE&I)?
“DE&I requires constant attention across all functions.”
21 mins PR people should sell T-shirts with this message on them:
“You cannot be effective as a CEO without a trusted communicator by your side.” Robert Swaak, CEO, ABN AMRO
24 mins How internal comms went to the forefront of CEO priorities during COVID.
28 mins Are in-house PR and comms folks retaining the increased breadth of responsibility they gained during COVID
“The expectation is the same…but they aren’t necessarily being given more headcount and more budget”
32 mins Are comms directors now more important than marketing directors?
“Where they aren’t aligned and where they don’t work together, those cracks really show”
“They are aligned functions but not the same function.”
35 mins The 7 top attributes that CEOs want in the comms directors:
41 mins Lucy reflects on the current state of the in-house PR jobs market.
Welcome to the PR Moment podcast Produced in association with the Marketeers Network.
Speaker 2:Today on the PR Month podcast we're going to be talking about what CEOs want from PR. The folks at VMA have recently interviewed about 20 CEOs and today we're going to be chatting with VMA's MD Lucy Kencos about what she's found out about the CEO communication priorities. What PR moment listeners probably won't know is that Lucy and I went to college together. I don't know whether either of us thought that in the PR Month podcast quite fulfills our childhood dreams, but here we are anyway, lucy. I don't know whether it's congratulations or commiserations, but Auckland College certainly seems a long time ago Before we start. Thanks so much to our PR Month podcast sponsors, the PRCA.
Speaker 3:Lucy, welcome. Hi Ben, how lovely. What a lovely intro and, oh my word, it was a long time ago, wasn't it? It was a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Thank goodness we weren't quite sworn enemies at college.
Speaker 3:No, we weren't, we weren't. We went to a few parties together, didn't we for sure?
Speaker 2:So, coming on to your report, which I always like these ones, it's a pretty broad topic, isn't it, and gets right to the, frankly, the heart of what public relations needs to be all about. What are CEOs' concerns at the moment, then?
Speaker 3:according to your latest report, so this is actually a series of reports for us actually, so it's been a really interesting one to do and I think clearly there's a lot going on at the moment. Isn't there, and there has been for the last however many years? It just feels like it's ongoing.
Speaker 3:Exactly ongoing.
Speaker 3:So I think you know currently the big things that we're talking to CEOs about clearly, the macroeconomic environment and the instability that we've got internationally.
Speaker 3:You know we're an international recruitment business as well, so it's not just the UK that we focus on too, but across all of the regions that we operate in there's.
Speaker 3:You know there's a lot of stuff going on and that's a big challenge for CEOs and organisations, no matter, you know, what sector they're operating in. So I think clearly, the environmental impact and challenges and targets that people have got to make particularly, you know that's on their minds and there's a lot of concerns about whether they're going to make those targets, not make those targets but actually there's also lots of concerns and desire to make sure that those impacts, you know, are a reality and do actually happen. So that's something that I think they've brought up a lot and, clearly, commercial stability. So I think there's lots of change there's. You know, lots of organisations and sectors still coming back from, you know, what could have been considered the brink at some stage in the last couple of years. So there's a big, there's a, you know, big focus on that, whether that's restructuring or big transformational change, but there's that as well.
Speaker 2:You get interesting thoughts. So in the UK we become relatively paranoid about the idea that we're worse than anyone else because we've made we've made a few sitting with decisions, arguably enough anyway over the past 10 years or so. So when you compare, I don't know the morale of the average CEO in the UK compared to his or her international counterpart. Are they about the same or are we, are the UK CEOs a bit more browbeaten?
Speaker 3:I think that's a really good question. I think UK CEOs are definitely feeling the pain, I think, for sure. I mean around, I suppose, brexit and the impacts of Brexit. You know that's definitely for international organisations that have a UK CEO or a UK headquartered. I think they are finding that challenging for sure, and I think, but I think also the other thing that they probably have on their mind at the minute and certainly corporate affairs directors are talking to me about that is that they're kind of getting asked regularly what's going to happen with the government change, what's going to be ready for that, what's the impact of that going to be on the business? You know, what are we doing to prepare for that? What connections and contacts do we have? That sort of stuff is coming up a lot as well, whereas obviously maybe I mean that could be the same across some of the other international regions too. But you know that's definitely a big difference, I suppose, with the UK.
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, the Conservative government hasn't exactly been a haven for stability over the last few years. You might suggest that things might not get that much worse. No true, so it just let's just summarise that then. So we've got clearly, international stability, so we're looking there at Russia's unprovoked war in Ukraine. Economic turbulence, which is global, frankly, and the ongoing challenges with interest rates and inflation and the implications of those, I suppose, to political changes. So are those the sort of three key themes for CEOs currently, then yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3:And then the environmental impact as well, that is definitely you know. I think that's something that every single organisation has to think, and their commitments to that as well, particularly in certain industries.
Speaker 2:I was going to say so what prism are they looking at that through, then? Are they looking at that from a? What does that mean for our organisation and how we should be doing our best to help in effect?
Speaker 3:I think it's a bit of both and I think obviously for some organisations and industries it's about survival long term. You know, existence, long term. Like you know, if they don't make fairly major fundamental changes to their organisations and how they run, they're not going to exist in 10, 20, 30, 40 years, 50 years time. So that's a big factor too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. We've got some broad themes that concern CEOs globally, and I guess the next obvious question is what are the implications for comms and PR teams about those in terms of how they can help their CEOs with those problems? Does that come through in a report?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does. Yes, it does definitely. I think because of the, I suppose it's that it's the advisory relationship across those things and I suppose seeing those issues or the kinds of issues that might come out and how that's handled. But I think also, I, you know, you can't tackle. I mean these are all big, that's all big picture stuff, isn't it that all of those things are huge. You know, huge topics, huge challenges, long-term challenges.
Speaker 2:You could spend your lifetime dedicated to each and every one of them. If you have lives, if you see what I mean and you can sort them out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, completely, completely. But you know, I think, that ultimately, how that's pulled together and how that's communicated, whether that's, you know, internally, externally, to all of the multitude of stakeholders there are involved in across all of those things as well, you know, the the effect of the effectiveness of that comes down a lot to the guidance and the trust and the authority of the communications leaders and teams within those organizations to help steer that in the right direction and advise in the right direction. So I think, yeah, they definitely have the opportunity to have a huge impact, I think, on those huge topics. They can't, they're not going to solve them by themselves as the CEOs. I'm going to solve them by themselves either. It's a, you know, it's obviously a team effort, isn't it? But I think COMS is really, you know, central to the sort of quality of response, I suppose, to those issues.
Speaker 2:And is that? Is that what CEOs want from their PR and COMS team? Essentially, stakeholder management through those complicated areas. Is that, in a nutshell? Is that what their, the PR and COMS team role is centered upon?
Speaker 3:still, I think, yeah, in a big way it is. I mean, I think, you know, I talked to one of the CEOs, talked to me about the fact that previously, when they'd, you know, been around the table, coms might have been not an afterthought, but like a side, you know, a side thought yes, make sure we talk to the commons people, make sure that they, you know, help us, support us with this, whereas you know he was saying that now he just wouldn't not have COMS at the heart of it from the very beginning, you know, and those discussions would involve COMS from the beginning.
Speaker 2:We shouldn't be asking me, because that's quite a big statement. When we think about it, you know I mean definitely comes. We do a lot of engagement events within how COMS people and themes related to that come up all the time. Is that they're? You know, life's not easy right now, but the breadth of advice, that breadth of responsibility, if you like, that COMS people have within organizations is vast now, isn't?
Speaker 3:it? Yeah, it is, it is definitely so, I think you know clearly it's a complex stakeholder environment and so, you know, having people that are able to communicate effectively with those across those and across very complex topics as well, often, but then also just being somebody who's seen to be there from the beginning is certainly vital. I mean, you know, not in every organization, I am sure, and there are still lots of, there's still, you know, lots of outliers that don't look at it like that, but I think successful CEOs and successful organizations will have strength in COMS and strong relationships with their constituents.
Speaker 2:Sure. So what are those priorities then, when it comes down to, I suppose, the CEOs' communications?
Speaker 3:So I think a big one, and certainly actually even even subsequently to this report, actually in more recent, even the last two, three months, we've had loads of conversations. I've had lots of conversations around big transformational change within organizations and obviously things like things like AI. We've been talking about a lot more than we were even, you know, even three months ago, six months ago. You know the sort of conversations around that from a COMS point of view, but also from the potential longer term impacts on organizations and how they run, how they function, how you know what they do. I think that has changed a lot, even from when I did the or we did the original interviews for this report, because I think this transformation came out as one of the priorities, but that's now got a slightly nuanced, a more of an AI theme than it probably did.
Speaker 2:well, when you a couple of months back when you did the interviews Exactly.
Speaker 3:Well, a lot of the interviews happen pre-Christmas, you know, and you know there's just such a shift, isn't there? And the speed of which that has adapted, I suppose, changed. So yeah, digital transformation is massive, of course, but it's just shifted in terms of that AI and what that means, and obviously lots of people still don't understand it. I mean, you know, I don't completely understand. Well, obviously, I don't definitely completely understand it. It's new and it's growing and it's something that people are having to adapt and work with as it goes, as it grows. So, probably about a month ago.
Speaker 2:I had a decent handle on it, if you should have mean. But I've gone away for a month, got been quite busy and things have changed, so you have to you know loads of stuff's happened. So whereas a month ago I reckon I knew what I was talking about with AI and Genensive AI, the truth is that now I've almost got a start again, because it's so quickly, and one of the other things was around the hybrid model was it?
Speaker 2:Is that you were talking about that? Because that does come out as well actually, when I talked to it, and it's a slightly nuanced debate compared to the debate the agency guys are having.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay. So yeah, no, that is still big. And actually we hold lots of events and you know, meetings, roundtable meetings with in-house leaders, whether that's in TunnelCom, whatever it might be, and actually we still end up talking about hybrid in such a huge way, like I always think. Surely everyone is bored of talking about this. Now, we've done it, we're there, we've done it, we've been doing it for ages, but clearly it's still such an issue for lots of organisations.
Speaker 2:They don't feel like they're going to buy it. Why is it such an issue? What is the issue?
Speaker 3:I suppose I think there's, you know, maybe there's just that there's a slight mismatch, I suppose, in terms of what people want. I think most organisations and we've done some data, actually we've done some research with regards to this quite recently too you know, most organisations ideally, on average, would like their people to be in probably three days a week, you know, and that would be their preference. There's always going to be organisations that go one way or the other, but ultimately, on average, that is their. You know, that's their sort of sweet spot. And I think, looking at comms people we're looking at specifically here actually I suppose that you know they want to do. They want to do one or two, and there's an issue there. There's a sort of, you know, there's a gap in the middle and I think that's similar across other. That's not just industry specific, you know. So I think that's a big challenge.
Speaker 3:But I think also there's a big sort of culture issue where organisations leaders think where's our culture going? You know, how are we selling ourselves? You know what's our employee value proposition? What are we doing about that? What do we look like? Who are we? And the traditional way was always well, we're like this, this is our building, this is where we are, this is our team sat together and this is our culture. You know, I remember when I first started in recruitment people said oh, the only way you'll understand an organisation's culture if you go to their office and you look at how it's all set up and you see the people working within it. You know that isn't always possible now. So you know there's lots of people, lots of organisations that we work with that I never walk into their building and that doesn't mean you can't understand what their culture is. So I think there's still just a bit of a disconnect there as to you know how that's going to work longer term.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we don't actually know, do we? That's the issue. People never meeting each other must have an impact on culture. Yeah, you don't quite know what that is, and some people will say it's absolutely fine, it doesn't matter, don't worry about it, and some people will say that and they'll be right, and some people will say that, and they'll be wrong, and other people. I suppose it's quite individual, isn't it? Some people are fine never meeting each other and other people are not, and that's yeah, and I think it is shifted massively in the last six months.
Speaker 3:You know there's already loads more people. You know we're seeing loads more people face to face. We're hosting events and people are coming, you know, keen to come. So there's a big shift and that's definitely what organisations are saying.
Speaker 2:And when you think about the role of that in-house, especially the senior communicator or senior communicators within an in-house organisation, in-house team. You know, what you said a moment ago was really it was about the breadth of responsibilities that increased so much. It was about stakeholder engagement. If that does need a little bit of face to face time with the people around the in the organisation, doesn't it? And I get, you can do a lot of that video, blarney Blar, but you probably need to be able to get in front of people and talk to them on a level, don't you?
Speaker 3:You do, and I think also expectations are, and in reality, to do the job really well, I think you know comms needs to know the business. You know and know it really really well, and so for that you need to be able to spend. You know you need to spend time with, with those stakeholders within that business, for sure, and understand how it all knits together. So, and you know, there is no doubt about it, the value in doing that in person is is is huge, right?
Speaker 2:So, yeah, and one of the other things you talked about was and I guess it's related to that, but it's the speed and the pace of, of, of change and the the impact on. Well, how do you describe that? I suppose organisation transformation is that how you put it. Yeah, is that what you find? That organisations are just changing what they do faster than ever? Is that? Is that what came out?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, well, obviously there's, I suppose, the report coming out from a massive period that was completely different to any other, you know, through the pandemic, etc. And then and the change that had to happen from that. But then also now we're, you know, we're obviously recovering and and moving on from that and and focusing on the future, and with that comes, you know, all sorts of other transformational change, whatever that might be. And, as we talked about earlier, you know organisations need to adapt to survive and there's a lot of organisations out there that that will really struggle to survive if they don't find huge ways to adapt, like, ultimately, they're, they're, they're, they're original game plan, they're original.
Speaker 3:Retro it's complete yeah, exactly, it's completely is no longer going to be viable. You know so that. So that's huge. But I do also think that there is a and again, this is probably more. Over the last few months we've we've seen quite a lot of a shift to restructuring and and and sort of wider global transformation for organisations and and I think comms is having to really take a hold of that that change side, I suppose and being part of big change programmes that are happening globally. Yeah, the nuances and agility that's required for that often requires very strong comms change professionals to go in and support those projects. So that's something that we are seeing quite a lot of as well.
Speaker 2:Right, and just finally on on this sort of theme of it, the you talked a bit about, well, a lot about the challenges around DER DENI for for CEOs and and the the priorities around that, and I suppose it relates to in a sense it's a different issue, but related to that as another societal issue around climate change and what that means for organisations.
Speaker 3:Yes, yeah, yeah. So I think, well, this. I suppose there's lots of different variations within within those subjects, but I think it was interesting actually talking to the UK CEOs about the EDNI side. You know that was a, you know, a real focus for them in terms of wanting to make impact and impactful change positive, impactful change. With regards to EDNI, I think there is a real challenge still there where you know it's sort of it gets pushed from pillar to post as a priority and perhaps some of the bigger economic situations that have been happening in more recent times have have probably taken over and shoved it slightly to the side almost. And you know it's a huge problem and it's it. It it requires just as much focus as some of the others that we were talking about at the top of the conversation and to keep, to keep going on that journey.
Speaker 2:You've got to keep at it as well, isn't it?
Speaker 3:It's not like it's not a one six months and then go.
Speaker 2:Oh, we sorted that out. You know it is ongoing, requires constant attention.
Speaker 3:It does and and and across all functions. Ultimately, you know, it can't just be like, oh well, that's an HR thing, they can just sort that out. I mean, that's just not ever going to work so so it needs. So one of the again. I mean, I suppose I was, I was really hoping that we would see more strategic comms roles focusing on EDNI for organizations coming out of the pandemic and, you know, looking to the future. That was, you know, and I started to see a few. We worked on a few and actually, you know it was. It was quite exciting to do that and there's a real appetite actually for comms people to, you know, to to to sort of do that and take those kinds of roles.
Speaker 3:But it hasn't. I haven't seen as many as I thought I would. You know that hasn't. That hasn't come through in the same way. And so whether that's a reflection of, you know, budgets being spent in different directions or not, I don't know, and whether that's a, you know, I suspect that probably is. But I think in the longer term there needs to be, as there is in the focus on sustainability from a comms perspective within organizations, it's going to have to be more strategic focus on EDNI from a comms to align with the broader EDNI specialists within organizations. They're going to have to have comms strategic specialists to do that too. Otherwise it just won't. It won't happen in an impactful way. Right, you're scratching the surface, you know.
Speaker 2:Right Now, throughout the report you've got, you've got some various quotes, yeah, and I do like a good quote. They bring things to bring some clarity to to these things. But what are my favorites? And PR people should be selling t-shirts with this on them. I think you cannot be effective as a CEO without a trusted communicated by your side, and that was, I think, an interview you did with Robert Sack, who's the CEO at ABN Ambro. I mean, yes, that's been PR. People have sort of had that for, as opposed to a crisis, we've always sort of thought that, haven't you? You know that the crisis situation changes the relationship between the CEO and his or her communicator, but is that what we're saying there? Is that that relationship's becoming, hopefully potentially closer than it's ever been? Are we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think so. I mean, there's no doubt about it. You know we, we have gone through a massive crisis, you know together as a group.
Speaker 2:Perma crisis, Lucy, I'm afraid, isn't it?
Speaker 3:And it is a Perma crisis. And so that's the thing, though, isn't it Like crisis never goes, like there's always something, there's always something that's ever changing, but then is it crisis.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I suppose it just depends how cool you are in these things, but but yeah, I think that there's always that, that that side of the relationship. But I think and so, yes, I think it has it's galvanized it from that perspective. But I think also, you know, people have, I think, ceos, leaders, in no matter what kind of organization it is they've gone through. If they haven't learned from that and if they haven't learned, that comes, I mean, they melt it. That must be. That's crazy, like you should be one if you haven't learned and had experience, you mean.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, if you haven't experienced that and thought to yourself, oh my god, right, okay, I need to really connect with not just the outside people, not just my investors, not just the. You know, I need to connect with all of my audiences, whether they are internal or outside of the organization, no matter what stakeholder they are. You know, the effective way to run this business and to be successful within this business, commercially or however that may be, will be to make sure that my comms is exceptional. That comms is exceptional, not just my exec comms, but actually our corporate communications across the business, how we sell our products. You know, everything should be exceptional and if you don't have that focus and understanding that actually comms is, you know, completely at the heart of that, then I yeah, I would question whether you are doing the right thing really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I suppose I've got two thoughts on that. First of all, yes, you're right, If you got, if you're CEO and you've got a good comms team, your life is much easier, isn't it? It's very. It's going to be infinitely more stressful if you're if either you haven't got a comms team or your comms team isn't any good, but that was going to be. My other point is that I'm sure I'm sure it doesn't happen with VMA recruit the comms team, but that does need to be that trust, doesn't it? I mean, you only give responsibility to people if you think they're good at their job and you trust them to do a good job. And, if I'm honest, about five or so years ago I thought that was a bit patchy, but I think it's much better now. I get the feeling that the quality of work going on in-house PR and comms team is just so much more professional and robust and are a higher quality, and it's been correct for a long, long time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree, and I think it's a real. It's that classic trusted advisor, but it is. I mean, you know it's, it is, it's so, it's so important and, funnily enough, like I was thinking about when I started recruiting, which was, you know, ages ago, not as long as old, in college ago, but it was definitely a long time ago. And I remember, you know, people often say to me oh, you know, I want to come out of an agency and go to in-house because it'll be easier, so much easier, and you know, it'll be much nicer because I'll only have to deal with that one, you know, that one client or that one organization, and and I used to sort of think that can't, that's, you know, it's just not true like when I was really early in recruitment and you know it, there's no doubt about it, it's not easier, like it's so complex, it's so complicated, but and also you are looked at as being that person, that or that team that has to deliver and the expectation is so, so high. So no, it is a vital relationship for sure.
Speaker 2:Now, if I'm honest, I'm a bit bored of the whole bit. Like you're a bit bored of the hybrid working from home thing. I'm a bit bored of the COVID chat, Right.
Speaker 3:So like it never happened, ben, yeah, well.
Speaker 2:I just, I just kind of, I'm just kind of over it, but. But but one of the things that came out from the report and I think you're right, which is why I'm forced to bring it up that the COVID, the COVID crisis, sort of created what did create this once in a I don't get too carried away by myself, but once in a generation opportunity, set of circumstances, if you like, that we, you know we clearly wouldn't want to have invented, but it did happen A set of circumstances that enabled comms to really show the full, full facets of its potential to the CEO and in the well, I don't know, and a fair bit at the time, the in-house guys took advantage of that opportunity pretty well.
Speaker 3:I think so. I think it was also really interesting from an in-house perspective because there's lots of pivoting going on. You know loads of people focusing on perhaps much more on internal comms than they would have done. So I think, you know, internal comms in particular took a real step up because you know it had to and has always been strong, but it's you know that strength has been. It definitely pushed them to the forefront and lots of people did pivot and experienced actually running internal comms in a slightly different way, I suppose in response to it.
Speaker 3:It was the ultimate shared experience really for all of us.
Speaker 3:And I think the one thing that I mean I know what you mean in terms of wanting to try and move on from it and everybody needs to and wants to and all of that sort of stuff, but it's not that long ago that it happened and I think the big thing is that everybody was in the same boat-ish together and didn't really know what to do. So we were all running around like headless chickens often, weren't we? But ultimately we had to go through it together and I think one of the things that I found quite enjoyable about these interviews as well is that I think the CEOs were affected in a positive way in terms of how much time they can invest and spend and talk. I mean they wanted to talk. They wanted to talk to me and my colleague, willem DeRoyta, who's our executive director in Amsterdam. They wanted to talk to us about how important that relationship, the guidance, the experience to take them through, because they were going through it themselves professionally, any experience they shared with communicators, or just the general experience.
Speaker 3:Well, just the general experience, but also the fact that they needed to know what to do. They weren't sure what they were doing either. So just because you're a CEO and you run a massive global business, you're going through an experience that you don't really know either. So I think that was a bit of a leveler, I suppose, in some ways. Sure.
Speaker 2:And do you get the sense that PR and comms people in those in-house roles are sort of retaining that increased breadth of responsibility that they gained through COVID or slowly but surely are the marketing and HR and whoever else grabbing back that responsibility and potentially the budget that goes with it?
Speaker 3:I think that's a great question. I think they are. I think, yes, they are, but my sense and what I'm getting from conversations I have now is that they are being. The expectation is the same in terms of what they should be focused on, what they should be delivering on, what they should be inputting into.
Speaker 2:The same as during COVID.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and that level of commitment, that level of capability across, but they aren't necessarily being given more headcount or more budget, and so I think people are feeling the pinch of that for sure. Within in-house comms teams, they are definitely, you know, like, operating and working at 100% and yet and their teams are going hell for leather, but at the same time, they haven't had that increase in terms of you know, or ability to stretch out. Where they've identified that they had gaps or, you know, would like to build on that, they haven't necessarily been able to do that at the pace that they would have liked to have done, I think.
Speaker 2:And I suppose that's possibly probably related to the fairly tight economy over the last year or so, isn't it? You know, if companies are making profits and things are going well, then they might turn around and say, well, actually, no, you've done a good job that had a bit more budget. But alas, we're not quite in that situation, are we?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think you know, naturally organisations are like well, you did it when we were going through that, so surely you can do it like this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that is anyway. Yeah, there's a whole another, but you can't. You can sort of adrenaline and a crisis situation can get you through those sorts of things, but in the end you do. These things do need to be properly resolved, certainly, otherwise you just cannot retain the quality.
Speaker 3:No, no, and it's exhausting. And actually, you know, if you are as an organisation, as an owner, as a business owner whatever it is or business leader, if you are genuinely committed to the health and wellbeing of your employees, you can't drill them until they drop down, like that is not. You know that can't continue and I think people were exhausted. You know they were exhausted at the end of 2020 and into 2021, and then it's just kind of continued. So I, yeah, at some point, that has to, that has to.
Speaker 2:I must admit for some and some for me, some people tell me, yeah, they've got increased budget and it's okay and, as I alluded to earlier, it's where the business is doing quite well. That tends to happen. But you know, if you've got a start up and you've got next funding round and that's looking a bit tricky guess what? Your incomes budget, your internal incomes budget, isn't going to get increased, is it? Yeah?
Speaker 3:and actually, and to be fair, even really successful very large organisations are being very cautious around their spends, across not just, you know, from a comms budget perspective or a recruitment perspective or whatever you know. There's just a lot of because of that uncertainty, there is just a lot of caution, which is probably not I mean listen, yeah, well, it's some and some.
Speaker 2:With that I mean literally every conversant. I think I've built up a the moment, I think I've built up a sort of consensus on that. I can talk to somebody else and it's for every person who says it's really tough. You speak to somebody else and they're going yes, fine, we can't, we can't recruit quick enough.
Speaker 2:So it does depend what you're doing a bit and what market you're in and maybe how good a job you've done over the last couple of years to invest in your business and whatever service it is that you're trying to sell. Now a couple more questions because we're running out of time. With all that chat then around increased responsibility and PRs priority, who's more important currently than comms directors or marketing directors, would you say?
Speaker 3:I think that's a very mean question, ben, because obviously we recruit for both. I think they I mean, you know, let's play devil's advocate I think they are both still incredibly important for organizations. Of course they are and they need to work really closely together. But I would say that where you know and again this is observational from my point of view really, rather than across the you know across the board, but I think where they aren't aligned and when they don't work together, well, those cracks really show. So I, you know there has to be a level of mutual understanding and respect for each other. But I think they are, you know they're aligned functions but not the same function. So they, they are both as important as each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for a little I mean, it still depends on the organization, isn't it, and the structure of it and all the rest of it. For a little while they were, you could sort of witness sort of comms getting merged into marketing a little bit, and that still happens some of the time, but that happens much less now, I think, than I've seen at any point in the last. Well, in the last 10 years there seemed to be a more educated understanding that, frankly, the functions and objectives of both are subtly different, but different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree. I would agree with you and, like you say, there's always going to be nuances and differences with regards to that. But in general, yes, I would agree. And I think even when, even when comms ultimately reports into a CMO, you know, if that CMO again in the same vein as the CEO thing if they don't understand the value and the difference etc. Then it will never be as effective as it could be.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of CMOs are frustrated CCOs, I think because that's it sort of becomes a certain level, it's more interesting to be a CCO. I think you know the nuances and that you have to use quite a few clogs within your brain, sometimes a bit more than the CMO does. But there's a whole other podcast that you probably don't want to come on Now. Go on, I should move things on because we've got. I did just want to cover this bit off. What is you? You identified seven attributes that CEOs want in their commons directors. Yes, go on, just talk us through those, because there's some good ones in there.
Speaker 3:Well, there were a few different ones, to be honest, and I suppose some of the I mean we've covered, we've talked about some of them, as you would expect, but in terms of having that real subject matter expertise was really important but ultimately also having that overarching insight. And I always think that you know comms leaders have the potential to be CEOs. Really they should do that, you know they should be a classic route really, as long as they have that commercial capability on the financial side. You know they can, they could really they can really take that role?
Speaker 3:Well, no, it hasn't done. It hasn't done very often, but it is. I would have thought it would be quite a. That should be the route that the people are taking. Oh it'd be beautiful, I'd love it. I'd love it.
Speaker 2:So where are you? Put it just in a word. What's that then? What's that? So I?
Speaker 3:suppose it's really they need to have the subject matter expertise, but they need to have more there's. You know there's got to be more there. I think honesty and empathy are still two major ones, really. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Empathy is one of my favourite words, so it's so important, isn't it? Yeah? Let's take honesty as a given, but Although that's probably not always the case. But empathy is so important, isn't it? In comms?
Speaker 3:It is, it is, it is and across all aspects of it really. And then I think agility was one as well, and that's you know. Again, you would expect that.
Speaker 2:A nuance. You said nuance. What did you mean by that when you were looking at it?
Speaker 3:I think when we were talking about nuance within the report, it's about the you know, it's about the differences in. We were talking about the differences both internationally but also across the different stakeholder elements, the different, the ways in which you have to adapt and address the nuances of communications across the different markets that you work in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I suppose the nuances come from you, empathising, don't they yeah. Which is quite nice. When I think you had it yeah exactly. And clarity and connection. Those are two separate things, but just to that was. Clarity is an important one, and what does that mean? Just keeping things simple? Does it? Is that what?
Speaker 3:you? Absolutely, I think so, and you know, I think that sort of transparency side, being really clear, being really open, I mean, you know all organisations have things that they're not going to be talking about or releasing or whatever, but at the same time, when you are communicating that, you are communicating clearly and you are transparent and you are authentic.
Speaker 2:Good word, yeah, yeah. And connection. What does that mean? Does that mean that, when that's not that awful one, I want to be on the front of the FT? Get me.
Speaker 3:No, no, that's much more about personal connection. So I think CEO's leaders want to. They want to feel, you know, not like it's their best bud, but have that connection so that they understand and respect each other Right, and that is important.
Speaker 3:And actually it is really important and actually for any comms director that is going to be working really closely with a CEO, that is always what they want. They want somebody that they can respect. They don't have to, you know, hang out at their house or anything, but they need to be somebody that they really expect, they really understand, they get their vision, they are into the vision and that is another important thing that people have felt post the pandemic as well, that actually, you know, being aligned to an organisational purpose and vision is massively important for employees generally.
Speaker 2:And so all this, but yes, absolutely.
Speaker 3:But for every level. You know, for every, every level and I think from comms, because if you're going to be the person that's really pushing and leading and you know voicing for that organisation, you kind of really want to feel like you know you're in the zone.
Speaker 2:I just want that connection one. For a little while there, you used well, you used to see quite a few CEOs and comms directors follow each other around between roles. I haven't seen that so much. Just thinking about that. Do you see that much in your world, or does that sort?
Speaker 3:of not change so much anymore. Do you know what? I don't think it is as much, much maybe, and I think it's surprising, isn't it, when you think about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I know it's interesting, isn't it really? I think that they, I think that there is always because there's such big differences between organisations and actually you have to find the right person for that organisation and that journey that it's going on. And you know, if you go there as a CEO, that might be right for you for whatever reason, but that doesn't necessarily translate over to being right for the comms director that you're working with in a previous organisation. So I suppose maybe it's that you know.
Speaker 2:Or maybe they didn't really like each other.
Speaker 3:Maybe I would not like to cast a comment on that.
Speaker 2:to be honest, you have to do a report on that. And the last one is, I guess, one we always think about, but coolness under pressure, yeah, which I know is an attribute everyone likes. I'm not sure there's a few exiles I could think of who don't necessarily have that, but I guess it is one that the CEO is looking for.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, definitely Just a cool head. You know somebody who can, you know, be rational during that period of time and you know, and take a breath, and I mean I completely agree. Like we're all human, aren't we? Like there is definitely no circumstance where someone is completely chilled the whole time. When something's really kicking off. There's going to be moments, but you know, I think often really great comms leaders and comms people in general they kind of thrive in that sort of environment and that's probably, you know, what sits under coolness and defy really.
Speaker 2:Totally right. I mean, I was I won't say the brand or the person, but I was telling that to someone the other night and it, yeah, they just love the whole issues based stuff. And you know it's not, it's not easy, but it's. It's interesting work, isn't it? And if some people are just wired up that way, and good luck to them, frankly, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Now I can't let you go without just checking out the state of the in-house PR jobs market at the moment, because it's always a good barometer of the state of the market. And there is a bit of chatter. I'm always at the sort of calm end of things. It's all right, but where are you at with that at the moment? What was the state of the market currently?
Speaker 3:You're always at the center of everything, Ben. That's the thing. That's the thing. So it's been interesting. It's been interesting. It's definitely. It's not the same as this time last year, for sure, Like you know, it's a different. It's a different year entirely, and so it is. It is slightly more challenging from a sort of volume of activity side of things. However, there are some really interesting roles out there. There are some businesses doing great things and doing very well, and I think there's still, there's still a fair amount of movement and there's still a fair amount of people wanting to move actually as well. So it's not that, you know. Again, harking back to your favorite topic, that pandemic, it's not like the pandemic where there was no jobs and actually nobody wanted to move because everyone was like, oh my God, I'm just going to cling to this seat as long as I possibly can. You know, there is still very much an appetite for moving and so that in itself always, you know, continues the cycle going.
Speaker 2:What sort of jobs Is it comms directors in its sort of broad form, or is it a bit more specialist?
Speaker 3:than that. So obviously with VMA we work sort of mid manager upwards really, and so and by nature there's always going to be more movement at the mid levels. For sure, there's still lots of activity in internal comms. I think there's still quite a lot of investment in internal and obviously around the digital side as well. You know that sort of focus. I think people are panicking a bit, like when social media came in. It's like, oh my God, we're going to need AI specialists to come into the organization. So I think we might see a bit of spiking around that too. But no, we're seeing quite a lot of still specialists being hired. So, you know, public affairs, external affairs, that wider corporate affairs side, I suppose. And then at the senior level, yeah, it's still. There's still that importance of making sure that they find, you know, people who have that overarching vision of comms really, I suppose. So they are keen. So definitely, corporate affairs is the area that people are still wanting to hire. I think at that level.
Speaker 2:Right Lucy Kankloss, MD of VMA. Thanks so much for going on the show.
Speaker 3:My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed it. I've enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to the PR Moment podcast produced in association with the Marketeers Network.
Speaker 2:If you'd enjoyed the show, please do review us on iTunes and give us a decent rating.