The biggest leadership challenges in PR - right now!

In this episode of the PRmoment Podcast, host Ben Smith sits down with Will Hart, CEO of PRmoment Leaders, to unpack the four most pressing leadership challenges facing senior agency executives. As agencies navigate an era characterized by unprecedented disruption, Hart highlights how leaders are balancing day-to-day business survival with systemic shifts in technology and workforce culture.

Key Themes

• AI Disruption & Governance: Artificial Intelligence is the most pervasive topic across agency masterclasses. The challenge has evolved from initial existential panic to practical governance—determining how to safely integrate AI into client services, agency structures, and junior talent workflows without losing the human element.
• The Multi-Generational Divide: A distinct cultural fault line has emerged between pre-COVID and post-COVID workforces. Gen Z and junior practitioners prioritize hard boundaries and work-life balance, contrasting sharply with the traditional, "always-on" agency culture of the past.
• The Unsettled Hybrid Work Model: The debate over hybrid working remains volatile. While client-side CEOs increasingly demand five-day in-office weeks, agencies are attempting to maintain flexible structures (typically a 3:2 model) to retain talent, with proximity and commute times dictating employee satisfaction.
• High Performance in Hyper-Competitive Markets: Leaders are forced to maintain profitability, pitch constantly, and deliver exceptional creative work while fundamentally restructuring their businesses.

On AI Panic: > "If you work hard, you're motivated, and you're intelligent... you're going to be alright. It's a tool for you to earn more. You don't need to panic." — Ben Smith

On Gen Z and Work-Life Balance: > "The Gen Z people... they have a different approach to life. They are more generally into work-life balance actually and, you know, hard to fault them on that, isn't it?" — Will Hart

On the Current Pace of Change: > "It’s sort of like building the plane as you’re flying it... everything we’ve spoken about now, I guess particularly AI, is just driving such massive change." — Will Hart

Elevate Your Agency: Join the Latest Semester of PRmoment Leaders

Are you a senior PR agency leader trying to navigate these exact friction points alone? You don't have to. The latest semester of PRmoment Leaders has officially kicked off, offering an exclusive, private community where over 30 agency bosses openly share challenges, benchmarks, and strategies.

This semester features an unmissable masterclass lineup designed to solve modern agency pain points:

• Clara Biu (Allwyn UK): On the evolving talent profile required for modern in-house teams.
• Bruce McLachlan (Amazon): Revealing "10 things I wish I’d known when running an agency."
• Nicola Green (Virgin Media O2): On elevating comms to the board level without a CMO.
• Thierry Ngutegure (Six Chillies): On the intersection of SEO, data, and PR storytelling.
• Frankie Cory (Hello Tomorrow): On building a modern agency from scratch with AI at its core.
• Ben Smith (PRmoment): Breaking down macro-trends and insights from over 430 podcast interviews.

Click here to learn more about PRmoment Leaders and secure your place for the next cohort!

Transcript

00:00] Ben Smith: Welcome to the PRmoment Podcast, produced in association with The Marketeers Network. Welcome to this latest PRmoment Podcast. Today I'm joined by the CEO of PRmoment Leaders, Will Hart. Will has identified four significant leadership challenges in PR currently, and today he's going to be talking about those, revealing them, and talking through the challenges of them. Will, welcome to the show.

[00:33] Will Hart: Thank you, Ben. Cheers for having me.

[00:35] Ben Smith: Great to have you on. The latest semester of PRmoment Leaders has just kicked off, hasn't it? So you're a bit of a coiled spring in terms of, I guess, recent and relevant insight into the challenges of senior agency folk right now. You've got a fantastic cohort, I know, on the program, and one of the great things—I'm slightly jealous of your role, actually—is you get to chat to these folks about the challenges they face and indeed how to overcome those challenges. But having done that over the last six months or so, I guess you've kind of refreshed your thinking in terms of the biggest leadership challenges within PR right now. And I think you've identified four, haven't you? So go on, talk us through those four.

[01:14] Will Hart: Yeah, cheers, Ben. You're right to be jealous, actually. I feel like I'm really privileged to be in a position where I'm dealing with people that are at the coalface of running agencies. And as I keep saying when I'm talking with them, they're actually running agencies through probably the most disruptive time in our lifetimes, actually, in our space. And I guess the three things that sort of stand out as the main challenges everyone's dealing with, no matter what type of agency, what size... you would say that AI disruption, you know, I can't tell you, in every single masterclass, it's sort of an interesting challenge to see how long it takes for AI to get mentioned. Everyone's dealing with it, everyone's trying to get their heads around it.

[02:00] Ben Smith: I mean, that's such a vast topic. So break that down a little bit, right? Because there's efficiency, there's new services, there's innovation, there's talent—you know, implications for talent, especially junior talent. There's a thesis right there, isn't there? But what sort of challenges and problems are people having to deal with specifically within that AI framework?

[02:22] Will Hart: Yeah, all of the above, actually, Ben. I thought your most recent podcast was really interesting with Thomas Simonsson.

[02:30] Ben Smith: Tom Simonsson.

[02:31] Will Hart: Sorry, Thomas, yeah. He was really interesting, and I think the challenges that he identified probably went through—you went through all of those things you just named. And I think it's interesting for the independent agencies who are sort of running without that sort of bigger framework, that sort of bigger corporate support, but dealing with incoming requests from clients expecting to see change and dealing with that. So yeah, it's a proper challenge. I don't think, as I said earlier, I don't think there's been such disruption into our space for such a long time. And everyone sees opportunity for sure, but the challenges are real. And as you say, I think it's the governance piece. How to bring it in, in a smart, sensible way to make that right for your business, for your people, and for your clients. But that's huge, as you say.

[03:22] Ben Smith: Massive. But the other bit of that is it's so useful. It does make you think, doesn't it? You do come across new, faster, and richer information than perhaps you are used to getting, especially with that speed. But then you've got to respond to it, you've got to think about it. It's not always right. So there's that little microcosm you can put into every different scenario, really, can't you? Whether it's a new agent for a client, a new service that you're thinking of building, and on and on. So that's, I think, the biggest challenge, isn't it? There isn't a nice, easily packaged answer for most of that AI stuff. You have got to do some proper work, you've got to work it out, and the solution at the start might not be where you end up.

[04:05] Will Hart: Yeah, and absolutely all of that. And I guess we're in a world where as much as anyone might say they do know where we're going to end up, no one does know. And I guess it's sort of holding back the panic, essentially, the mounting panic that's in the background of like...

[04:22] Ben Smith: I genuinely don't think there's any need to panic. I mean, honestly, I think anyone who's panicking needs just to sit down, have a green tea or whatever your thing is, and just think. Because if you work hard, you're motivated, and you're intelligent, you know, you're going to be alright. It's a tool for frankly for you to earn more. You don't need to panic.

[04:42] Will Hart: Completely agree, actually. And also I was talking to someone yesterday, Ben, saying, you know, the PR League that PRmoment ran so successfully a few months ago, and the first task that the teams had to complete then was that essay about what does the future of PR look like and what are the skills that are required. And I was saying to someone yesterday, I was really reassured to see that that mid-level tier of, you know, AMs essentially, I guess, for people with four to eight years' experience and right in the heart of the agencies, were all saying—so coming from them, they're all saying, very consistent message—"Yeah, AI obviously is really important, really good tools, but, you know, we're a human-to-human business primarily, and it's always going to be about human intelligence, emotional intelligence, with those, with AI as tools that support." So I thought that was cool to hear that cohort say that.

[05:37] Ben Smith: Yeah, but it's a fascinating subject, right? If we talked about it all day, we might end up being a bit bored, but there is so much to go at. I mean, that's the joy of that subject. But clearly, it's a challenge for leaders. And I just want to focus on that before we move on to your second most significant leadership challenge within public relations currently. Because let's just focus on what that means for those leaders in PR who are trying to figure this out. And as I think we try to explain there, you're not trying to figure one bit of it out, are you? You've got a whole breadth of stuff going on where AI is relevant—from a client perspective, from a team perspective, from a structural agency perspective, etc., etc. It can be overwhelming in a leadership position. You've got to pick your fights, haven't you? You've got to pick your moments.

[06:25] Will Hart: You absolutely have to pick your moments, and you've got to, while factoring in, you know, you've still got to be delivering well for clients today, you've got to be winning business, you've got to be doing all those... You know, life doesn't change, nothing changes in that sense. You still got to be running a successful business with a great team. So, yeah, as you say, it's fascinating.

[06:47] Ben Smith: Are there any trends in which bits they're taking on first? You know, in terms of the... I talk to some people who are restructuring the whole agency with agents. I talk to other people who are launching innovative AI-related products. I talk to other people who are really worried about the impact on young folks coming into the sector. You see a good breadth of senior leaders within agencies on that PRmoment cohort. Are they doing all of the above, or are they focusing on one bit more than the other? What's the trend there?

[07:18] Will Hart: Yeah, no, that's an interesting question. I think all of those things are happening across the cohort, and it does vary agency to agency, obviously. You know, it's perhaps not surprising that the B2B tech specialists are potentially ahead of the curve. They're having to show, you know, they're just having to because that's the world they operate in and they're in that tech space. But no, all those things... and actually, that's one of the beautiful things about PRmoment Leaders, if I'm honest with you, Ben, that we do have those variety of voices. Everyone's dealing with that fundamental challenge but all handling it in different ways. And in the sort of closed, private space of our community, everyone's sharing that very openly, sharing it with each other, with their peers, which is, yeah, what we hoped would happen, and it's great that it has.

[08:08] Ben Smith: Go on, what's your second most significant leadership challenge within public relations currently?

[08:14] Will Hart: I think the key thing that everyone's dealing with, you know, as I just said earlier, we're a people business. I think the multi-generational—the potential clashing, potential clashing or ongoing differences of approach to work and life between the generations is really, really interesting. Essentially, if you sort of boil it down to basics, in agencies today, you have a cohort of people that remember what working life was like pre-COVID, and the cohort that came in subsequently to it. And they're not naturally aligned in lots of ways. And so figuring out how to get them aligned and how to be all be on the same page...

[09:02] Ben Smith: And you think literally is that line in the sand of COVID? I thought there is a generational difference. I think there possibly always has been, but you're closer to it than I am. But you reckon that there really is—that COVID is that line in the sand where you've got a cultural pass.

[09:23] Will Hart: I think so. It just so happens that it aligns with the generations anyway, but I think from that COVID break point, agencies were then, when they did bring in people in those years, they were people that didn't come into the classic office environment. You know, so they haven't had that learning by osmosis, that sort of just the vibe of the office. And their expectations are different. And so, COVID just, I guess, exaggerated stuff that was already there. But it's particularly meaningful in a working environment where it's teamwork, you know, agencies are teamwork.

[10:06] Ben Smith: Yeah, I mean, I think that's widely discussed. Let's focus again on the agency leader—how they are attempting to overcome that. Because it's, I mean, you could again, you could go round and round on this one, right? There's no right answer. It just depends who you are, where you live, your personality, the nature of the work, etc., etc. How are the leaders dealing with those issues?

[10:33] Will Hart: Yeah, well, it's interesting because another factor, actually, is that client-side, you know, the CEOs of the client-side world are all demanding their teams are in five days a week. They're almost, you know, they're trying to abandon hybrid working.

[10:50] Ben Smith: So on that multi-generational point, Will, and taking your point around COVID and obviously home working complicates this debate a little bit, but let's stay on the multi-generational point for now. Teams benefit from having different types of people within them, and that includes older, younger, more experienced, less experienced people, doesn't it? Because all of those folks bring different benefits. And if I'm honest, this whole multi-generational thing, it definitely is a challenge right now, I get it, it is. I would have thought it possibly always has been. And I'm surprised it's become—it's been highlighted as a problem. I would have thought it's a fairly obvious point: you want a mixed team of generations and people and diversity. But let's focus on that multi-generational element for now because that's what you've picked up within your cohort.

[11:46] Will Hart: Yeah, well, I think a really—one example of it is expectations. People coming into the workforce and their expectations of what working life is like. This comes up many times within our cohort. But, you know, if you go back, you know, 10, 15 years into any agency in London, Wednesday evening, Wednesday night, you go into the agency at 8:00 PM, there's going to be quite a few people still in there working, you know? And then, what a story I just heard the other day, one of the MDs had a client event the next morning. They were all in the office—one of the days they're all in the office—they had a client event the next morning. Press pack wasn't finalized, you know, there was still quite a bit to be done. Come 5:30, the team just got up, got their bags, and left because, you know, they're contracted to 5:30. So, you know, on the one hand, fair play, that is what the contract is. You know, you look back to those 10, 15 years ago, a lot of people were giving a lot of free time that they weren't being paid for. So, you know, that's just a, you know, quite a light, sort of less serious, but ends up being serious.

[13:06] Ben Smith: And there's no right or wrong on that, is there? I could argue that both ways. So let's, let's not try to be judge and jury on it. But from a leadership perspective, how you manage that situation is, it's interesting, isn't it?

[13:18] Will Hart: It is interesting. And you know, that's just one one example of how the younger, the Gen Z people, you know, they have a different approach to life. They are more generally into work-life balance actually and, you know, hard to fault them on that, isn't it?

[13:35] Ben Smith: But don't forget history never stops. So you might find the next bunch of kids coming in have a different way of working. So, you know, all that and that'll be because of, I don't know, supply and demand in the marketplace, you know, there will be all sorts of things going on. So it, you know, these things, there's always a danger when you're trying to analyze these things that you think this is the way it will be forever. It won't. It'll change again. How it will change, it might get worse, or better, or, you know, who knows, and I'm not, you know, who knows what better or worse is. But it might become more extreme one way or the other. But it's interesting to think about. And it's also interesting to think about bearing in mind your first point around AI disruption on talent, because, you know, again, it's, I find it hard to summarize that, because when you're, when you talk to some young folks who just get it, you think, you know, I don't, I don't think you need my sympathy. You're kind of fly. But then you hear about other folks who are finding it more difficult. And there is a, there is a spectrum there, isn't there? And it's, some people inspire and some people you worry about. And it's, again, it's a tricky one when you're in a leadership role to try and work that through.

[14:52] Will Hart: Yeah, and I think, you know, at heart, the job is about creating high-performance teams, isn't it? And you need that mix and variety within the team, as you say, but you need that team to hum as a collective, you know, performing at their—everyone bringing their sort of A-game into the into the mix the whole time. And, you know, that isn't going to change, as you say. But it does feel everyone's dealing with it in a particular way right now, alongside that AI disruption.

[15:25] Ben Smith: And that's a good... I know you're going to come onto it in a minute, but the—what we can't ignore is the incredibly competitive marketplace that all this stuff happens within. For sure. So if you're trying to, you know, that is your... doesn't really... so much of this stuff is, is very interesting to discuss, but you cannot get away from the reality that as you just said, if you're not, if you haven't got a high-performance team producing amazing work, you are unlikely as a business to thrive. You know, there are lots of PR firms who are thriving, but they're doing really good work. And that's, you know, we'll come onto that again, I know, in a minute, but that's, that is so important to bear in mind with all this stuff. I struggle to get passionate about a debate around hybrid working, Will. So when I saw you put this one in, I was a bit like, "Oh, here we go." But, but, you, again, it's important to discuss, right? Because clearly, your cohort is still trying to work out—that leadership agency cohort is still trying to work out what is that balance between, presumably, in the office and working from home or, or wherever else. It's still an issue, is it? I would have thought whatever it is, six years in now, we should have worked this out. But you, you tell me it's still a problem.

[16:44] Will Hart: Um, I think, yeah, it's definitely, it's, I don't think it's settled yet at all. I mean, you see real difference between client-side world where CEOs are demanding people are in much more, and an agency-side world where everyone, every, you know, people saw the benefits of of what it's like to have a day at home where you're not having the commuting costs, where you get to get, you know, if you're a person that needs to get your head down and crack on and write something. And so, so and and, you know, the variety, it's just within our cohort, the variety is really interesting. Some, you know, I think most, most agencies now have settled in on a three days in the office, a couple of days at home, but then some stipulate what three days those are. One, some of them make one of those days a compulsory for everyone to come in. Some do a Monday, Wednesday, Thursday type of thing. Some, you know, it, so it's, there's a lot of variety around. And then there's also variation on, yeah, on how how much people are insisting, you know, compulsory days versus just sort of leaving it open to everyone to come in. And then there's also variation on, yeah, on how how much people are insisting, you know, compulsory days versus just sort of leaving it open to everyone to come in.

[18:07] Ben Smith: I do think it's, you're right, there is a state of flux in it. There is, I would say there is a general trend over the last two and a half-ish years of agency leaders saying, "No, I need you in, I need you in a bit more. I need you in a bit more," and that seems to have come back towards the office as a general trend. There are exceptions. The other point I'd say on it is you'll get some quite vocal leaders—I'm not going to name names—who will say, "Oh, we're flexible working, we like people from home," but if you talk to them quietly after a couple of beers, they're like, "No, I really do want people in the office more." So it's, there is a, there is a tension there, isn't there?

[18:49] Will Hart: Yeah, there is. And I think, you know, we talk in the cohort about this a lot, as you can imagine. And I sort of feel like it's not, there's no short-term fix to perfect, either. I think that, I think it's almost like, it's sort of a slow, like you have to be clever about who you promote and why, you know? Um, people that are showing up, that are making an effort to be in there, that are sort of making those the people that, you know, get promoted before others that are less visible. So, you know, but that's, that's, that's quite a long-term or mid-term fix to get right, I think.

[19:26] Ben Smith: Well, I mean, that's interesting. And I'll, he said it on the podcast, so there's no need to, to in that sense, not attribute it. But I was chatting to Warren Johnson—it was 18 months or so back from W—and he made that point, which I thought was quite brutal at the time, but, but, you know, I guess it follows a logic. If you've got someone who shows up every day and is in your face working incredibly hard versus someone who they might be working really hard at home, but it's not as, it's not as visible, perhaps that person who is in the office is going to get that promotion sooner. You know, that's, that's, is that not the reality, I guess?

[20:05] Will Hart: Yeah, no, it absolutely is. And I think, you know, always, always, you know, since forever, you need, you need to be really intelligent to work in PR because you're juggling lots of balls, but you also, it comes down to attitude, you know? So that's, that's today's way to explain attitude is, yeah, being around, being in, you know? And I guess it's showing young people that the way to, the way to get ahead, you know, if you're ambitious, the way to get ahead, yeah, is to be in Warren's face as much as possible.

[20:39] Ben Smith: Well, I mean, the other element of that of course is, is I always, it's annoyingly simplistic, but the length of the commute is, is the key part of that discussion, isn't it? So if you live 2 hours out, guess what? You are not going to want to come into the office as much as the person who is half an hour walk from the office. You know, it's just, it's just the reality, isn't it? And that then very quickly gets into a debate around accessibility and, and, and, so you, there is a, it is related to a lot of other, um, more complicated, more, very important issues, isn't it? But, um, anyway, that, that can run and run.

[21:18] Will Hart: Yeah, no, no, just, just to quickly say on that, actually, Ben, interestingly, for in the cohort, we have some fully remote agencies. So they, they bring a very interesting perspective into that story as well.

[21:28] Ben Smith: Well, there are lots of fully remote agencies who absolutely will, you know, take me to task on the fact that it's, it works brilliantly. So, I mean, I would add that they tend to, the ones who do it well and have done it long term are very organized with it, you know? They have away days, they, they have regular company meetups, they, you know, so it's not, you know, anyway, there is a, they're probably different types of agencies perhaps doing different types of work, interesting to ponder. But we touched on it, but with all these leadership challenges, and and that's why it's such a fascinating role, I think, that that PR agency leader—which is what Leaders is is focused on, just to be clear—you're trying to do all of this stuff while in a very competitive market, aren't you? The agencies that are growing the most in the UK currently, they all go through lean periods on pitching. Do you know what I mean? It's not, you know, and then all of a sudden you get, you get a hot period. But so, but those pressures are, and you've got client pressures, you're trying to do all this stuff whilst trying to thrive in an extremely competitive market.

[22:46] Will Hart: Yeah, absolutely. It's sort of like, what's that, what's that expression about building the plane as you're flying it? You know, because yes, all that competitive stuff was always there obviously, but, you know, everything we've spoken about now, I guess particularly AI, is just driving such massive change. And it's, and it's what, what prospects and clients are expecting to see from agencies is, is changing rapidly as well. Um, and, and, you know, everyone talks about, you know, there's a lot of chat, I think, and it's the pitching process, you know, I think we can safely say it's still feels quite broken, honestly. Let's not go there. We haven't got time. Um, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's like, you could, I, yeah, okay, I don't, no one's come up with a better way. It's a bit like democracy, Will, it's the... no one likes it, but no one's come up with a better way.

[23:44] Ben Smith: Go for it. So yeah, I mean, what we're going to just talk—you've just launched the, what, the latest, um, semester of PRmoment Leaders. And I, um, it's another amazing lineup. You've got Warren Johnson on there, but which we'll, we'll come onto in a minute. Um, I mean, the feedback you get from it, I think is, is amazing. I, honestly, it's, well done with it, it's brilliant. Um, we'll include the, the link to that latest semester in the, in the show notes. Um, so if you, if you do fancy getting involved with it, do give, um, Will a call. Um, but Will, just briefly, because we've taken a bit, more longer than I was anticipating on that first section because that was really interesting, just run us through, um, the, the lineup, um, that you've got. Who have you got first up?

[24:31] Will Hart: Yeah, absolutely. So let me run through them in the sort of order that they're happening. And, and again, we've got a really, as you say, it's a great list of speakers, and it's a really interesting mix of senior client-side. So, first up, we've got Clara Beu from Allwyn UK, that run the National Lottery, EuroMillions and everything. And Clara is just absolutely brilliant, um, full stop, but she's great around, uh, well, she's speaking about the evolving role of in-house team—you know, the evolving profile of, a talent profile of in-house teams as they shift, as their world shifts. You know, there's shifts going on client-side a lot as well.

[25:12] Ben Smith: Yeah, I mean, that's a really interesting trend that, isn't it? I mean, every, literally every—I don't know about every actually, but, but something like 70-ish percent of in-house folks I talk to are stretched because their, their role um, within of comms within that in-house organization has increased in breadth. Absolutely. And it's, it's super interesting. It's quite stressful, but it's super interesting. And, and Clara is talking about that in, in her session.

[25:42] Will Hart: Yeah, absolutely. You know, um, they now need to be, you know, expert diplomats, they need to be salespeople, um, you know, that's, uh, uh, but, but with the nuance of the change that's coming now. So yeah, she's brilliant. Then we've got Bruce McLachlan from, um, from Amazon. Um, and, and actually Bruce has got an interesting perspective. I think he's sort of, six, eight years now into his role at Amazon after running Fever, um, in the UK, um, consumer agency. And so he's, he's, his one's looking back: "10 things I wish I'd known when I was running an agency, now that I've been in-house for a while," and there's some really interesting stuff there.

[26:24] Ben Smith: Yeah, it's far when someone makes that jump, especially when, when they've, because a lot of people make that jump, not that many quite a few come back, but Bruce has made the jump and obviously stayed in in-house. So yeah, it's interesting to, to look back, um, I was going to say look back in anger, look back in hindsight, something like that. Indeed. And you've got Nicola Green, who is someone I, I love talking to, um, and has a lot of insight on, on that, on that absolute intersection of, of PR comms and business. Um, but you've got her talking, what's she talking about?

[26:55] Will Hart: Yeah, so she's, she's, you know, why, um, she's explaining, you know, she's a CCO in a serious organization that doesn't have a CMO, you know, which just start from right there. She's, she's amazing on how she's brought comms to be taken seriously at board level and how, and interestingly how she set up her team within that, um, and what that means for the agencies that they work with. So yeah, very, very important stuff, I think.

[27:26] Ben Smith: Nicola is CCO of Virgin Media O2, um, just to be clear, so, um, but yeah, really interesting perspective. And it, and it oddly enough, we've got an event coming up on that, that, you know, that intersection of PR and marketing, um, and, um, that, that is interesting and it's certainly something that, um, Nicola's got a, a very interesting perspective on. And then you've got me, haven't you? You've got me coming along, um, with perspective.

[27:51] Will Hart: Yeah, then we then we then we fall off a cliff. Thank you, Will. Exactly. It's going to be great, really looking forward to that. And then we, then we, then we go back into, uh, we've got Thierry, co-founder of Six Chillies, um, and, and they're, they're big on data storytelling. He's a great speaker, um, Thierry. I love listening to him talk. Yeah. Yeah, and I think, and I think that, you know, that's the holy grail, isn't it? Data-led, data-driven storytelling, um, earned storytelling.

[28:23] Ben Smith: But, but he comes at it from a slightly different angle than, than I guess some people, he's sort of come from an SEO background, hasn't he? And he's, he's bridged that, um, um, that, that, that gap, I suppose, between, um, public relations and SEO, and, um, he's got quite a, a slightly different perspective, I imagine, than what a lot of people have heard before on that.

[28:47] Will Hart: He does, and he's, you know, he's a, he's a sort of, he works in partnership with, um, with PR agencies and I think, uh, yeah, his is going to be great. And then we round off the semester with the, with Frankie Cory, and Frankie's just brilliant. Um, um, she's going to be talking about, um, how to build the team that builds the agency. Um, that's going to be, that's going to be, that's going to be, that's going to be great. And because it's, she she was, her experience was fantastic anyway. She's been, you know, in very senior roles around the agency world, but, um, she's quite recently launched a, a new, um, a new agency called Hello Tomorrow. Um, and I was talking with Frankie the other day, actually, and she's, uh, as they've started, you know, she said it's been really, she's loved starting an agency from ground, from absolute zero, right? Okay. Everything I know, everything we know, um, um, what do we do starting from scratch? You know, you always welcome an opportunity like that, you know, actually, um, you always think about it when you're running an agency. God, I wish we could start from scratch. She has started from scratch and actually to round it back to where we started with AI, it's from scratch with AI at the heart of it, actually. So there's going to be some very interesting stuff from Frankie.

[30:04] Ben Smith: She's not the only person who's, who's had that proposition recently, but, um, but Frank, it's always worth listening to Frankie because, um, she's had a lot of very senior agency roles and she's another one that, that when you just look at her track record of work and the agencies she's been involved with, and indeed the client work she's done as well, um, there's a lot of experience there with a lot of different perspectives and, um, yeah, I'm sure she'll have something very interesting to say about all of that. Well, that was great, thank you so much, I really enjoyed that. Um, if you have listened to that, you think, "Well, what's all this PRmoment Leaders about? I wouldn't mind hearing, um, a bit more about it." We shall include the, the link in the, in the show notes. It's called, as I say, PRmoment Leaders. Um, Will Hart, um, leads what, three semesters a year, um, and it's a fantastic cohort of about 30-odd agency leaders who, um, listen to different perspectives, um, around, around the role, um, and obviously they, they, um, share info and, and talk about the challenges they faced together. And, and Will sort of leads that community. Um, Will, thanks so much for coming on, much appreciated, and speak to you soon.

[31:13] Will Hart: Cheers, Ben, thank you.

[31:15] Ben Smith: Thanks for listening to the PRmoment Podcast, produced in association with The Marketeers Network. If you've enjoyed the show, please do review us on iTunes and give us a decent rating.