Hope&Glory co-founder James Gordon-Macintosh on Nils Leonardgate

On this PRmoment podcast today we're chatting about the Nils Leonardgate.

Is comparing earned media creativity and paid media creativity pointless?

I normally have this debate internally in my own head when I watch the annual PR/ad creative bun fight at Cannes but it's come a bit early this year following Uncommon founder Nils Leonard's latest activation of his "let's start a fight' strategy where he says: "The PR industry should be scared, not just of Uncommon but in general."

We’ll also discuss to what extent paid media creative and earned media creatives are similar, and to what extent are they different. Can they ever be compared with much validity?

To talk about all this stuff welcome Hope & Glory co-founder James Gordon Macintosh.

Before we start the final entry deadline to The Creative Moment Awards is on Friday 19th June 2026.

Key Themes
1. Ad Land’s Cyclical "Discovery"

Gordon-Macintosh believes that this is not a paradigm shift, but rather a predictable, cyclical reaction to macroeconomic pressures. Whenever paid media budgets shrink due to client belt-tightening or shifting algorithms, advertising shops look to colonise PR space to protect their revenue lines. Every decade, advertising "discovers" a discipline PR has been practicing for years—whether it's social media, creator marketing, or culture marketing—and rebrands it as something entirely new.

2. Bought vs. Earned Creative Architecture

The structural divergence between advertising creativity and PR creativity forms a central pillar of the debate. Advertising is hardwired for absolute control—agencies write a script, buy the slot, and force eyeballs onto the screen. PR, conversely, requires navigating a chaotic, reactive ecosystem of third-party validation, shifting editorial gatekeepers, and genuine cultural conversations where control is surrendered in exchange for authenticity.

3. The "Infinite Monkey Cage" of Ad-Led PR

While acknowledging Uncommon’s brilliant output (such as Rat Boot and PAIN), Gordon-Macintosh draws a line between flashy stunts and sustainable communication strategy.

Quotes from James Gordon Macintosh:
"Every decade, I'd say advertising discovers something PR has frankly been doing for years, and they try to give it a new name."

"Advertising is about buying your way into the media space—you buy the eyeballs. PR genuinely has to engage with what people are actually talking about."

"If you take an infinite number of monkeys and give them an infinite number of typewriters... mathematically one will eventually write Hamlet. In ad agencies, an earned idea is all too often luck, not skill."

Transcript

[00:00:00] Ben Smith: Welcome to the PRmoment Podcast. Produced in association with the Marketeers Network. On the PRmoment Podcast today, we’re going to be chatting about the differences, or perhaps the similarities, between PR creativity and ad creativity. To what extent are paid media creative and earned media creative similar, and to what extent are they different? Can they ever be compared with much validity? I normally have this internal debate when I watch the annual PR and ad creative bunfight at Cannes, but it’s come a bit early this year following comments from Uncommon founder Nils Leonard about his latest activation around his "let's start a fight" PR strategy, where he says the PR industry should be scared—not just of Uncommon, but in general. And to talk about all this stuff, we welcome Hope & Glory co-founder, James Gordon Macintosh. Before we start, the final entry deadline to the Creative Moment Awards is on Friday, the 19th of June. James, welcome to the show.

[00:01:15] James Gordon Macintosh: Lovely to be here, Ben. Thanks for having me on.

[00:01:18] Ben Smith: A pleasure, haven't had you on for a long time. Why would an ad agency founder, who’s just launched a PR offer from his advertising agency, want to criticize PR agency creativity, do you think?

[00:01:32] James Gordon Macintosh: I mean, the honest answer to that, Ben, is that I don’t really know. It’s a... it’s a fairly odd welcome into a relatively new industry. But look, I think it’s great to see that Uncommon has discovered creative PR. You know, ad agencies have been doing this for years, you know, at a point where paid media becomes less efficient, they suddenly discover something new. You know, they claimed to be experts in social media; we saw them claim to be experts in creator marketing. Like, now they’re stumbling across culture marketing. Um, you know, now it’s earned. You know, every decade, I’d say advertising discovers something PR has frankly been doing for years, and they try to give it a new name. Um, so it’s lovely to see Uncommon repeating the pattern that we’ve seen over the last twenty or so years in the industry. Why have they gone about it in this way? Like, honestly, I don’t really know. Maybe it’s to get people like you and me talking about them, which, um, which I think has been, you know, remarkably successful. My LinkedIn feed has been pretty full of commentary about the approach that they’ve taken. You know, Nils Leonard’s best PR client is Nils Leonard, let’s face it. You know, the best PR that Uncommon does is certainly for Uncommon. Um, they haven’t done a terrible job. Like, I loved Rat Boot that launched Uncommon in New York. You know, I thought Pain was a great, tricky second album. Um, I thought Roach Co, if I’m honest, was a bit derivative, um, and Hebe Georges did it better. But, you know, um, he’s got us talking about him. And, you know, they haven’t actually done any work to speak of yet, so from that point of view, it’s quite a trick.

[00:03:45] Ben Smith: Right. Yeah, I mean, there was a certain element... there was a thought I had that have we just simply fallen into the trap. But, yeah, it’s... um, interesting observations anyway. Um, I always struggle with comparing earned media—earned creativity to paid creativity, because they are different. They... their nuances, um, they relate—they're cousins, but they are different. Um, to what extent is there a valid comparison between the two, would you say?

[00:04:18] James Gordon Macintosh: Look, I... I mean, clearly lots and lots of people will say that it depends on which quarters of the PR industry you’re trying to, um, compare to the above-the-line world. You know, in like my corner of the world, in brand PR, you know, arguably there is some common interest, some common aims, some common objectives where it comes to, you know, pure awareness of a brand, a product, a service, a campaign. Like, we’re in a similar boat trying to do similar things. I think the massive difference between the two is that we genuinely have to engage with what people are talking about, what people are engaging with. We tend to do so through editorial channels. Like, earned is still incredibly powerful. Great to go straight through to social, um, but actually earned as a kind of core discipline, I think comes with a unique set of challenges and a unique set of value for the brands that we manage to crack the code for. Um, I think that when it comes to, you know, frankly bought creative—because that’s what we’re talking about here—you know, you can say whatever you like, you can make the logo as big as you like, you can be as explicit as you wish, and you’re going to buy your way into the media space. You’re going to buy the eyeballs. But the reality of that is, and, you know, the research has always shown this, that consumers don’t trust that stuff. And they don’t trust that stuff to an even greater degree now than they did historically, let alone being able to reach them in the first place. So I think that the reality is that making a pure comparison between the two is, you know, a massively false, uh, kind of combination of two relatively separate disciplines that have two relatively different craft skills involved in them. Um, you know, I will still say that my craft skill is understanding how to construct a great story and understanding how to make sure that it gets into editorial media. I’m sure that there are plenty of people at Uncommon who will write a better script than I will, will art-direct a better film than I will. Um, they just have a different set of craft skills. Can Uncommon acquire ours? You know, I think the jury’s out on that one.

[00:07:02] Ben Smith: Right. Um, you say most... I mean, I had this vague theory that PR creatives are in a pretty good spot right now. Um, and you look around, having sort of observed the field of play, like, for the last fifteen, twenty-odd years, I’d say it’s... the best practice has moved on. There are ups and downs, there are peaks and troughs, um, but as a rule of thumb, I’d say it’s as good now as it’s ever been. So it seems a strange time, um, for someone from outside of that sector to come in on the attack.

[00:07:38] James Gordon Macintosh: Uh, look, I mean, I think there’s a theory that says that, um, you know, the best defense is a good offense. Uh, I think, as many an American TV show will say. And, and look, let’s be honest, like being in a major scale, network-owned ad agency right now, you... you need a pretty good defense. Um, I was reading some research that, uh, Adweek ran, I think, and they found that 32% of brands expect to handle nearly all their creative in-house within twelve months. Another 23% of them expect to bring at least half of their creative work in-house in the same kind of timeline. You know, if I was a global ad agency or, or frankly sitting in Uncommon Studios right now, I think I’d be worried. Uh, you know, and frankly, if I was, you know, the owner of an agency in line for a... a fairly hefty payout in three years or so, frankly, I think I’d go on the offensive as well. Um, you know, I... so I sort of get it, really. I think that as much as, um, the Uncommon guys might say that PR needs to be worried, I think that the reality is that there is a tiger behind them, and that the advertising industry is... is trying desperately uh, not to be the slowest in that particular race right now.

[00:09:15] Ben Smith: Yeah, I mean, if you were... if you owned an ad agency, um, what do you think you’d be more worried about? Um, AI, social media owners dominating their algorithm, or PR?

[00:09:32] James Gordon Macintosh: Uh, right now, I think that the combination of big tech and AI and the kind of smooshing that that is doing, um, to the creative work that agencies put out would be a massive, massive concern to me. You know, I think that, and to be fair, Uncommon are probably in a much, much better spot than a lot of other agencies out there. Like, there needs to be a rush towards, you know, the top of the hill. Like, ad agencies, you know, to some extent, it will face us in PR as an industry as well. You know, have to race to the top. Like, we need to be the people who are delivering those big, ambitious, long-term strategies, and we need to be the people who are helping brands deliver creatively at scale through culture, I think through earned, but also through social. Um, because I think there is just a world in which a whole load of the stuff that arguably made the foundation of a lot of agencies' P&Ls—you know, the income lines—is just going away. You know, it is being ripped out by AI, in-housing, um, and, and big tech. And so I think that’s a real worry for so-called creative agencies.

[00:11:03] Ben Smith: Yeah, no, it's... they're not in an easy spot, um, and, and I think you’re probably right. Uncommon are probably in a better strategic place than most ad agencies to deal with it, which... but all that does make this current sort of, as I say, "start a fight" strategy that they seem to be following, um, a little bit more puzzling. Um, I also thought just to finish off, it might be interesting to, um, to quote um, from PR creative stalwart Mark Perkins, um, in a in a recent LinkedIn comment in response to uh, Nils Leonard’s rage-bait strategy. Um, Mark says: "I’ve spent over fifteen years performing creative surgery to amplify stroke rework from scratch ad agency campaigns that were either dead on arrival or aborted before launch. Because: A) they either ignored the target audience and were made to get acclaim in Adland, or B) ignored the client and were made to get acclaim in Adland, or C) were totally unfeasible and/or unhinged and made to get acclaim in Adland, or indeed D) I’ve seldom met creatives in the ad industry who interrogated their own idea with any rigor or doubt by asking the vital question: why would anybody actually give a shit about this?" I’m not sure I agree with all of Mark’s quotes about Adland’s creatives—in fact, I’m sure I don't—um, but it is an interesting perspective from someone who’s spent more time than most at the intersection of PR and paid media creative.

[00:12:47] James Gordon Macintosh: Yeah, look, Ben, I... I mean, I think I, I probably um, share some experiences, uh, with, with Mark. Uh, you know, we’ve all worked with lots of ad agencies that have come up with, you know, so-called earned ideas. You know, sometimes there’s potential. Uh, I think the reality is that more often, uh, there isn’t. Um, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there’s a degree of kind of infinite monkey cage, uh, made manifest in all of this. Uh, you know, the saying goes that if you take an infinite number of monkeys and give them an infinite number of typewriters and an infinite amount of time, then mathematically, one of them will eventually write Hamlet. And from time to time, I have said, generally in jest, and with a degree of kindness, that if you give enough creatives on the floor of an ad agency enough briefs, then eventually they’ll come up with an earned idea. But I... I think the reality is that that is all too often luck, not skill. I think it’s chance rather than... rather than taste. Um, and, and I think all too often, it’s kind of good fortune, not craft.

Generally speaking, you know, a lot of those ideas that did come from ad agencies—and, you know, we’ve amplified one or two in our time very successfully—have been vetted, have been shaped by a PR expert for their effectiveness, whether they’re going to land in earned channels. You know, they didn’t come out of that creative department in an ad agency ad-ready. Um, and I think that, that’s the point, right? On the occasions that an ad agency-led idea makes it into the world and lands in earned, it’s because people who have to make it land um, have had to like, kill a lot of terrible ideas, um, and have had a lot to do with shaping the ones that do get through... do get through the process. You know, I, I um... I worry that Uncommon to some extent is going to be marketing its own homework, uh, when it comes to that. Uh, I think fair to say Randy's got a bit of a job on her hands, so, um, you know, I wish her enormous luck. Um, you know, while I’ve got some doubts, and while I’m not sure that um, Nils perhaps has, uh, uh, endeared himself um, to much of the PR industry, you know, I think that, you know, I’d love to see it succeed.

[00:15:15] Ben Smith: James Gordon Macintosh, thanks so much for coming on the PRmoment Podcast.

[00:15:20] James Gordon Macintosh: Ben, as ever, it’s a pleasure.

[00:15:22] Ben Smith: Thanks for listening to the PRmoment Podcast, produced in association with the Marketeers Network. If you've enjoyed the show, please do review us on iTunes and give us a decent rating.