PR Pitch Hacks, Red Flags and a New Way of Pitching

The episode of the PRmoment Podcast titled “PR Pitch Hacks” features host Ben Smith in conversation with agency Hannah Sharratt of Axe & Saw, exploring how PR pitching currently works and how it should evolve. 

Ben opens by noting that pitching, alongside timesheets and AVE, is one of the most emotive issues in PR, with recent years marked by excessively long shortlists, reverse pitch auctions and widespread ghosting of agencies. 

Here is the link to a previous PRmoment Podcast with Tui's Amy Dowling, where she outlined a recommended 12 stage PR pitch process.

He argues that in‑house teams often overcomplicate what should be a structured, courteous process, and that following a clear best‑practice model would save agencies time and deliver better client–agency fit.

Hannah, who likens pitching to dating with its “icks, tricks and hacks,” describes both the traditional pitch process and her more disruptive alternative. Traditionally, brands move from longlist to shortlist, run chemistry sessions with three or four agencies, issue a written brief, then hold pitch meetings where agencies present polished strategies and big ideas before a Q&A, followed by a delayed decision and often poor feedback. 

From an agency standpoint, chemistry sessions are critical for understanding how clients think, why the brief exists, what their vision is, and who the real decision‑makers are. She stresses the need to research and challenge in advance to bring a point of view, not just show up passively.

Hannah’s proposed four‑step model retains the chemistry session but demands a much clearer, more brief. She insists on explicit budgets, not necessarily large but realistic, so agencies can shape ideas to fit. 

She also wants success metrics and decision‑maker clarity set out from the start. Her major innovation is replacing traditional pitch theatre with a live workshop. 

In this setup, the brief lands shortly before the meeting—perhaps 24 hours in advance—and the pitch itself becomes a collaborative working session. The agency leads, dissecting the brief, challenging assumptions and building ideas in real time with the client. She argues that this is far better for assessing how an agency thinks, responds under pressure and will work day‑to‑day than judging them on speculative deck polish. This is reinforced by her estimate that only about 10 to 15 percent of pitched ideas are ever implemented once legal, brand and procurement weigh in.

The conversation also covers red flags and etiquette. For Hannah, no budget, fuzzy timings, overlong unfocused briefs and “blue‑sky thinking” requests without a defined sense of “bold” are strong warning signs. She is particularly wary of tissue sessions dominated by junior stakeholders that send agencies down the wrong path before senior decision‑makers appear at the final pitch. On ghosting, both she and Ben are blunt: decisions should come within 10 days to two weeks, and losing agencies deserve meaningful feedback, ideally via a phone call.

Finally, they discuss how independent agencies like Axe & Saw use pitching strategically. Averaging roughly one pitch a week has helped them nearly double revenue in a year, but Hannah emphasises intentional growth: each win should either pay the bills or shift the agency’s trajectory, and profile is built as much through consistent, visible work as through formal announcements and awards.

“I think pitching, agency pitching, is like dating. Everyone loves to talk about the icks and tricks and the hacks, and everyone gets very heated and irate.”
— Hannah Sharrett, [0:01:58]

“We’ve seen extraordinarily long long lists, reverse pitch auctions, and loads and loads of ghosting… it’s one of those topics that always stirs the passions, particularly with agency folks.”
— Ben Smith, [0:00:03]

“I don’t think it should be slick‑Rick presentations at all. I think the best pitch should feel like a live working session.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:03:16]

“If they can’t make a decision throughout the pitch process, that probably suggests they can’t make a decision that easily throughout your working relationship.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:06:29]

“I’m actually not looking for the biggest budget. I’m looking for the most honest conversation about where the budget actually is.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:03:16]

“In a dream world, 10 days, max two weeks. Anything longer than two weeks is offensive, or you can’t make a decision.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:11:42]

“If you don’t win, proper feedback is the most valuable thing you can give an agency. It’s the one thing that says, ‘This hasn’t all been for nothing.’”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:11:42]

“If a client says they want bold but they can’t define what bold means to them, they’re probably not ready to buy bold.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:17:39]

“Bold without a budget—that’s the ultimate destructive combo.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:18:43]

“Every pitch matters because every client changes your trajectory.”
— Hannah Sharratt, [0:24:48]

Transcript

[0:00:03] Ben Smith: Welcome to the PRmoment Podcast, produced in association with the Marketttiers Network. Welcome to the latest PR Moment Podcast. On the show today, we're going to be talking about PR pitching, brand pitching. I think it's up there with timesheets and AVE to stir the passions of PR folks everywhere. And I would suggest that brand pitching has had a tough couple of years. We've seen extraordinarily long long lists. We've seen reverse pitch auctions come up occasionally, and loads and loads of ghosting has happened in the last couple of years. So it's one of those topics that always stirs the passions, particularly with agency folks out there. And I'm always surprised, frankly, that our in-house peers don't manage those pitch processes a little bit better, because it's not that complicated. There is a best-practice process to follow, and frankly, it would make a lot more sense for everybody, I suspect, if everyone just followed that process, because agencies will not waste so much time, and clients will get a better agency fit. And to talk about the PR pitching process today, we've got Axon Saw’s Hannah Sharrett, who's going to be talking to us about all things pitching, with an insight into her experiences in the pitching game over the last few years. Before we start, a little flag actually for our news section. I'll include the link where you can contribute to that section, but frankly, with free access, no paywalls, and fully geo‑optimised content, many PR folks are asking: where else would you want to put your PR news these days? Hannah, welcome to the PR Moment Podcast.

[0:01:58] Hannah Sharrett: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to get into this topic because I think pitching, agency pitching, is like dating. I think everyone loves to talk about the icks and tricks and the hacks, and everyone gets very heated and irate. So I'm excited to bring perspective.

[0:02:15] Ben Smith: Well, here you are, folks, for your PR pitching cheat sheet with Hannah Sharrett. I'm looking forward to it. Go on. Let's start with the absolute nuts and bolts of this, shall we? What would you say is the perfect pitch process from an agency perspective?

[0:02:32] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah. So I think you've caught us at a really interesting moment, and I feel like I've got a lot of learnings from that. I think we've been pitching like crazy over the past 18 months, so it feels like a good time to talk about what's working and what's not. I do think I want to do a shout‑out to Amy and your podcast episode from a couple of years ago at TUI on how she runs a slick pitch process. And I think if we're going to stick to the age‑old—like that is a, it's an 11‑step guide—but I think it's a pretty solid way for an in‑house team to run it.

[0:03:05] Ben Smith: Yeah, just to say we'll include that in the show notes. I think it might be 12 steps, but yeah, it was a long old… yeah, it did make sense, but we'll include the show notes on that. But you've got a slightly shortened version.

[0:03:16] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, so I do have another version that is slightly disruptive. I don't know if people will rally around it, but it's where I'd love to see the pitch process moving towards. So my four steps would be: a chemistry session—I don't think we should ditch that at all. I think it gives a clear indication of who's in the room, an idea of why the brief came about, and a clear indication of what they're looking for, and starting to get a feel of teams one‑to‑one and how you might work together. I think step two is the clear brief landing. But the biggest thing I'm looking for here is: everyone's going to talk about it, I need to see a budget, and I'm actually not looking for the biggest budget. I'm looking for the most honest conversation about where the budget actually is. Success metrics within the brief, or what success looks like—I really, really need to see that thinking to work backwards from there, and then a clear indication of the decision makers as well, so you can get properly under the skin of what motivates them. Then this is my biggest change: the third step is a live workshop. So I don't think it should be slick‑Rick presentations at all. I think the best pitch should feel like a live working session, and I think it's the one way to change. I think you should generally, as a brand, be judging on how you're going to work together with someone. Like, are you judging based on how a team can live‑react? Are you judging based on how they can challenge your thinking? Are you judging based on the insights that they genuinely have? That's how you can check whether they're genuinely plugged in or not. So I think the brief should be shared, what, 24 hours before, the morning of maybe, and you just go full throttle on it in the room and work through it together. I think that's where you're judging, not based on a polished idea and pitch theatre. You're actually judging on how you're going to work with someone.

[0:05:12] Ben Smith: This is different. So basically ditching the pitch altogether, is really what you're saying.

[0:05:17] Hannah Sharrett: Bold, I know, but yes.

[0:05:18] Ben Smith: Okay, so let's just backtrack. Let's come on to that in a minute, because I think that is interesting. But for, I don't know, 80–90% of pitches out there or briefs out there, they do follow a pitch process, right? So for a pitch process that exists currently, just walk us through that again. So your stage one was what?

[0:05:37] Hannah Sharrett: Your stage one is the chemistry session. So I'm assuming they've already shortlisted their agencies, right? And you're taking however many through to chemistry session. So you're getting a feel of who the people in the room are, the way they think. Do your teams generally get on? And you're starting to get under the skin a little bit about a brand. I would always say as well—and I think Amy mentioned it too—do your research before that. I think that should be a given. You should know where they've been placed, you should generally know what the challenges are, and bring a point of view on that because you want to show you're curious.

[0:06:10] Ben Smith: And from an agency perspective, how many folks would you expect to be pitching against? Because sometimes you see eight people on the final pitch list and you sort of go head in hands at the amount of time and effort that is being wasted here. What do you think is a responsible number for clients to ask to agencies to pitch?

[0:06:29] Hannah Sharrett: At the actual final pitch stage, I would say three to four. I think it's a red flag if they're like eight plus. I think if they can't make a decision throughout the pitch process, that probably suggests they can't make a decision that easily throughout your working relationship.

[0:06:46] Ben Smith: Right. So chemistry session, and once you've done your long list, and then you're down to a shortlist of agencies, chemistry session. And what do you find you get out of that chemistry session? As an agency, what do you need from that to inform what you're about to do within the pitch process?

[0:07:08] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I would say really seeing how the client thinks. They should, at that point, be bringing you a bit on the context of how the brief came about. What are the challenges? What's their kind of vision? Where do they want to take the brand? You know, is it “We want to be the first brand out the gates on this geo‑visibility piece,” or is it that, actually, “We want to build community,” and that's the genuine aim? And I'd want to get a sense from that of the kind of stakeholders behind them as well. So, if it's a comms team, in particular, generally you'll find the brand‑marketing tensions between them. I want to be learning about that in the room and who else they might bring to the final pitch.

[0:07:50] Ben Smith: Okay, so we've done the tissue session. We've got three or four agencies within that process now. What's next?

[0:07:57] Hannah Sharrett: You find out whether you're through or not. You set a date for the pitch, and then you’d send a brief. But my dream would be you keep the brief as close to the pitch landing as possible.

[0:08:14] Ben Smith: So quite close—so not much time. I mean, lots of people would disagree with that, wouldn't they? That you'd want some room, some time to work on the brief. I mean, some people have told me that if it's less than two weeks, they just won’t do it.

[0:08:29] Ben Smith: They won't do it.

[0:08:29] Ben Smith: They won't do it, yeah. But, go on.

[0:08:32] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I agree with you. But I think to allow that, you have to fundamentally then change what you're judging in the room. So if you're judging on polished, ready‑to‑buy and put‑in‑action ideas, then yes, the traditional model works. But I don't think many ideas actually pull through. And I think if you're genuinely looking for… I think the way that the comms industry is changing so fast, and I think the landscape ahead of us is like who knows, right? We're all trying to protect, and we're all trying to change the playbooks. The playbooks, they break faster than you can make them. I think to navigate this new landscape, you… I don't think you should be looking for a partner that can spend four weeks mulling over a brief and come up with a beautiful strategy, because I think it's going to change too fast. I think you want to judge based on: how do you critically assess something? What is your point of view on it? How can you live‑work through stuff in the room or challenge you in the room?

[0:09:30] Ben Smith: Yeah, sure. Okay, well, that's interesting. Again, I'm going to talk about that a little bit. Then, so you do your pitch. You think it should be quite short notice prior to the actual day. Just on that brief, by the way—one‑pager, two‑pager? Because you don't want it to be too long, do you? I've seen, you know, briefs that just go on and on and you just, your head’s in your hands at that point a little bit.

[0:09:58] Hannah Sharrett: Two‑pager, sweet spot. Supporting materials if you want, but not a barrage of WeTransfer downloads where you've got to sift through everything to get to actually what they're asking for.

[0:10:09] Ben Smith: Keep it simple. Okay, and then there's the day. And as the agency team, what are you looking for on that day? You come in and you've got your… How many people do you reckon should be on your agency pitch team? I guess it slightly depends on the size of the account and things. But what would be your rule of thumb?

[0:10:27] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I think four. I would say four to five. You want to see a range of levels, but I think we're past only the SLT in the room anymore. I think everyone wants to see the full picture.

[0:10:46] Ben Smith: And then, how long do you pitch for? If you're trying to blow people away with your brilliance, what would be your recommendation for how long you can keep it captivating?

[0:10:57] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I think 90 minutes—

[0:11:01] Ben Smith: Wow.

[0:11:02] Hannah Sharrett: —to two hours. Ninety minutes to two hours. I don't think an hour is long enough, because I think you get through what you want to talk through, and it doesn't leave enough room to really get… I think the most exciting bit is at the end when you really get into the Q&A and you get under…

[0:11:17] Ben Smith: I was going to say, is your 90 minutes including a Q&A?

[0:11:19] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah.

[0:11:20] Ben Smith: Okay. And how long’s pitching, and how long’s Q&A?

[0:11:23] Hannah Sharrett: I would do 60 minutes pitching, 30 minutes Q&A. Maybe 45/45 if we're really challenging the way things are done.

[0:11:32] Ben Smith: And then this whole ghosting thing, Hannah, has just got out of hand the last few years. So how long do you think it's reasonable for an agency to wait for a decision?

[0:11:42] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I think we're back to the dating icks again—ghosting, a dating buzzword. In a dream world, 10 days, max two weeks. Anything longer than two weeks is offensive, or you can't make a decision. And the ghosting point—my biggest thing on ghosting is that if you don't win, I get that it's hard to deliver that verdict, right, when you know an agency has spent tens of thousands of pounds on resource put into this pitch. If you're not winning, then proper feedback that you give to the agency is the most valuable thing you can give them. It's the one thing that goes, “Do you know what, this hasn't all been for nothing,” because we've learned something about the way a brand thinks, or the way the brand is kind of digesting the way we're presenting. So I just don't want people to shy away from it.

[0:12:36] Ben Smith: No, I agree, and I think it comes down to manners. I mean, I always summarise things: it's just bad manners, and if you're rude to people, they won't want to work with you again. Next time you ask them to pitch, they probably won't bother. It's quite a small world, the agency world. When you think about that competitive set, it can be, you know, consumer PR folks—there's not that many, and they all talk, they all know each other. So what goes around comes around. If you, you know, any clients listening to this, you do get assessed. If you don't feedback, people notice.

[0:13:10] Hannah Sharrett: We're all human as well. We're all human. We put a lot of effort into it. We can all take a no. We're all grown‑ups.

[0:13:18] Ben Smith: Yeah, no, exactly right. Yeah, I completely agree on that. Yeah, and I mean Amy Downing on that TUI podcast—I can't remember exactly what she said, but interestingly, at the final pitch stage, the feedback should be, I think she said within 48 hours. I can't quite remember. But also, pick up the phone and talk to them, because actually you can say a lot more in that environment than if you're writing something as well. And I think people really appreciate that.

[0:13:52] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, and I remember her talking about a slight debate within her team about whether you deliver on email and then have a call, or whether you make the call. And she decided to make the call, and I absolutely think that's the best. It's just nicer hearing that through a voice than it landing in your inbox.

[0:14:11] Ben Smith: And also, if it's in writing, everyone gets very worried about the legalities of these things, doesn't they? So you can be a bit—

[0:14:20] Ben Smith: Exactly. You can… So, okay, that's interesting. Red flags: what red flags, when you're sat there and got a brief or you've had a phone call from a potential client, what red flags have made you go, “No, I'm not going to do this”?

[0:14:30] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, so I can tell you—without naming—a particularly bad…

[0:14:36] Ben Smith: Definitely, for both our sakes, don't name names.

[0:14:40] Hannah Sharrett: I'm not trying to be cancelled on either side. A particularly bad process that actually I look back now and I think we should have clocked the red flags and gone “no.” But you learn from everything. So we pitched for a brand this year. It came inbound through another brand that had shouted us out on LinkedIn. We were told we had to rush through the process because they were already in late‑stage conversations with other agencies. I was actually in New York at the time working on a launch out there, and so it wasn't the most ideal time. But you know, it comes inbound, and you think, okay, that's really exciting. It's a personal recommendation. Okay, we'll go for it. And then you go and there's no budget. So there's no budget, they need you to run at breakneck speed. And then we did pitch, and they were a ghoster again. So I think the red flags are: no budget, no clear timings. I want timings really clearly mapped out. That for me shows intent. You know when you need someone in by, you know when you're making a decision by. That's like “I've really thought about this, and I know what I'm doing and know where I'm going.”

[0:15:52] Ben Smith: “We've got a launch happening on X,” and you work backwards from there, and that's why we're doing the pitch now, and the campaign's going to start on Y, and—yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, but budget just blows my… Back to manners. I mean, there is an oddity, though, isn't there, that some people—there are some really senior people client‑side running pitches, but quite often there are some less senior people running pitches, and there's the whole web of influence, don't get me wrong, on the buy side. But the people who are quite often actually running it are not always that senior, surprisingly. So I don't think they're doing this stuff on purpose. But I think there's this perception out there: if you give them a budget, they're going to spend it all, and that's why people are hesitant to do it. Whereas actually, it just means that you get relevant ideas that are going to fit into your campaign, as opposed to something completely either way too… not ambitious enough or way too ambitious, depending on what the budget may or may not be.

[0:16:54] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, exactly that. And I think just your point on stakeholders versus who's in the room as well. For me, this is quite divisive, but a tissue session can be more destructive than helpful. If you're doing a tissue session to the more junior stakeholders, they—I've seen it before—they send you down the wrong garden path. Then you go to the pitch process, and you've got the more senior ones in the room, and all of a sudden they're challenging what you brought to them, when actually it was someone else in the team that sent you down that road.

[0:17:27] Ben Smith: So how often do you get the senior folks in a tissue session?

[0:17:31] Hannah Sharrett: I won't do it unless they are.

[0:17:34] Ben Smith: Okay, fine. What other red flags have you got, Hannah?

[0:17:39] Hannah Sharrett: You're going to love this one. “Blue‑sky thinking,” “push us,” “be bold.” I won't take that if they can't define what bold is. Because if a client will say they want bold but they can't define what bold means to them, they're probably not ready to buy bold. I want to know where your line is, and I think people, when they go, “Oh, blue‑sky thinking,” I think actually people underestimate the kind of creative that is coming from earned agencies right now. I'd argue that in some cases it's more creative than what you find in advertising, and it's so hard to be in earned. I think you have to push so hard. You have to be so plugged in. You have to know that something is going to travel without paying for that guarantee. And I think the smartest people in‑house, they're really clear about where that line is on bold and where that sits with the brand.

[0:18:35] Ben Smith: Yeah, I mean “bold ideas” without defining what bold ideas are is sort of… it's AI slop of the pitch world, isn't it, really? It doesn't mean anything.

[0:18:43] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, exactly. And bold without a budget—that's the ultimate destructive combo. You might as well at that point…

[0:18:50] Ben Smith: So do you pick up the phone to these people? There's no budget, or someone says, “I want a bold idea, Hannah,” and do you pick up the phone and say, “No, I'm not doing this unless I get that and that”? Or do you just quietly not respond?

[0:19:04] Hannah Sharrett: No, I will pick up the phone. I won't quite say no at that point. I will push them on: “Can you give me a range?” If they can't give me a range, I'll start teasing figures, see how they land, and keep teasing from there. There are times where the brief and then the Q&A will undermine each other. At that point, we're starting to raise alarms and making a decision on whether we're going to say no or not.

[0:19:39] Ben Smith: Okay, so a couple of quick stats. First one: how often do you roughly walk away pre‑pitch?

[0:19:46] Hannah Sharrett: How often do we walk away pre‑pitch?

[0:19:48] Ben Smith: Percentage‑wise.

[0:19:51] Hannah Sharrett: I wouldn't say it's that often. I would say 10% of the time.

[0:19:55] Ben Smith: So you do, but not that often. And then the other one—the other stat always blows my mind—is how infrequently all these ideas in a pitch process actually see the light of day. What percentage of ideas that you've pitched over the years would you say have actually been used?

[0:20:14] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I would say as low as 10–15%, pushing it. I think once legal, brand, procurement get involved, it changes. And I think it kind of is my proof point of why we should go back to this live‑workshop thing, because I don't think you should judge based on ideas for that particular brief. You should judge based on how they think.

[0:20:43] Ben Smith: Absolutely. I mean, that was my segue to that idea, really, in that it does bring the question forward about why are we doing this? Because you're right: pitching does test the capacity and the competence of an agency to a written brief, absolutely. You can't argue about that. The question is, is there a better, more effective way that you might be able to do that in a more relevant way? Then we start having… So, okay, talk us through why you think that live workshop… Actually, let's just define that first of all. So there's a brief that comes in, and the buy‑side team watch you guys pull that brief apart and how you respond to it—is that kind of what your scenario is, or is there a bit of coordination between the buy side and the agency happening at the same time? How do you see it all working?

[0:21:46] Hannah Sharrett: I think the coordination is key. I think the agency has to lead that workshop, because they ultimately will be hired as a strategic thinking partner. They bring the outside‑in perspective. They are guiding you in how to navigate the landscape and how to tackle a brief. So they should ultimately lead that session. But I think it has to be collaborative. It has to be a conversation—it's live working it out together. Because I think that's how the best agency‑in‑house relationships work. That's how we work with all of our clients. The best relationships are when they go, “We really see you as an extension of our team. You get our challenge. You know your challenges. We'll work through things together,” because I think there's… In‑house teams are absolutely brilliant. I have some incredible clients who inspire me every day, and I think it's bringing those two minds or the two teams together that makes the winning process. I'm all for getting away from client…

[0:22:54] Ben Smith: I'm trying to work my way through it in terms of my thought process. I think it's a great, lovely idea, and I think it definitely has a number of advantages. A few… I think it probably has to be hosted independently, like you'd have to have a third party coordinating the role‑play or the scenario, which might be an idea. And I do worry that if you go first in that scenario, you've got a huge advantage because it's all fresh and new and interesting. Whereas if you're the client side, you might get quite bored by the third or the fourth one. But maybe the same is true for the pitch process, to be fair.

[0:23:33] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, I think that's exactly the same for the pitch process. I also think it's a debate that I'm sure every agency has internally of: do we go first, do we go next, do we go in the middle, morning, afternoon—where do we go?

[0:23:48] Ben Smith: And there is no answer, right? It just depends.

[0:23:50] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah. I pulled some stats, and we're seeing a trend. But I also don't… I can't hang my hat on that because—

[0:24:01] Ben Smith: What's your trend? What's your…?

[0:24:07] Hannah Sharrett: I'm not revealing, I'm not revealing the trade secret. Because also I don't think it's just on that. I think that totally undermines what we bring to a pitch.

[0:24:14] Ben Smith: Right. And the other—I mean, just a few on the specifics, going back to the pitch idea—how often do you pitch? I mean, I always have this conversation with agencies. It obviously depends on the size of the agency in terms of how much you need in your pipeline. But Axon Saw is an agency of 18 employees? 18 employees or 118?

[0:24:48] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, so I think, like you alluded to, it totally depends on your ambition—your growth ambition as well. We're scaling, so, I mean, we were pitching almost every week from September through June. At one point we did three pitches in one day. I don't know if we're crazy or incredibly ambitious—probably a mix of both. But that pipeline is one of the biggest reasons why we've nearly doubled our revenue in the past 12 months. And I think the key thing here is really, when you're independent, which we obviously are, every pitch matters, because every client changes your trajectory. So, small independent agency on a growth mission—yes, I would be questioning when we don't have at least one pitch a month. I've obviously also come from big global agencies like Ogilvy, where it's far less frequent and it's a different kind of pitch you're going after. So it totally depends.

[0:25:45] Ben Smith: But you said one pitch a month as a rule. Okay. I mean, I know agencies who are pitching way more than that, which is really interesting. But I guess it does depend on the size of the agency.

[0:25:58] Hannah Sharrett: One a week has been our average over the past six months.

[0:26:02] Ben Smith: I was going to say, I'm surprised it was one a month. I'm quite surprised. But one a week sounds more… yeah, you're going to grow quicker, aren't you, if you're pitching once a week? You're going to grow quicker than if you're pitching once a month. I mean, I know an agency or two in London who are pitching three times a week. They're obviously bigger than Axon Saw, but, you know, that is… which does—another thing we haven't talked about—is it's an opportunistic market at the moment, I would say. There's quite a lot of people who are… I think outside of that, a lot of people wouldn't appreciate how much work there is around at the moment. It's tough to win—my goodness, it's hard to win—but the briefs are out there.

[0:26:48] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, but also I think it's on your point of how frequent as well. Because the work is out there to be pitching every day, almost, of the week if you wanted to. I think it's all… it's like, there's growth, right, and then there's intentional growth, and every new win defines what you stand for as an agency or the type of work. So it's constantly that balance and the decision of, you know, what will this win say about us, and also, do you know, is it a brand that we really believe we can do mega work on? Is it going to be a great partnership?

[0:27:23] Ben Smith: Part of fame and fortune and all that.

[0:27:26] Hannah Sharrett: Everyone's favourite.

[0:27:28] Ben Smith: Yeah, no, it is interesting. Are we doing this, are we pitching… if we win this, will it pay the bills or will it change our world? And neither of those two things are wrong, right?

[0:27:38] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, exactly. And I think actually there's an interesting discussion as well about the brands you win and you can't publicly announce or talk about, versus when you can. We've got a few where I've had to position that.

[0:27:53] Ben Smith: By far the majority, they don't let you announce it, do they? And sometimes people—just the more experienced folks in the room—just say “Don't ask and put it out there; better to say sorry later.”

[0:28:05] Hannah Sharrett: But I don't know if it's the best start to your working relationship if you immediately go, “I'm not going to listen to what you've just said.”

[0:28:13] Ben Smith: They don't ask—that's the point.

[0:28:17] Hannah Sharrett: But often it's written in—it's written in the MSA.

[0:28:20] Ben Smith: Yeah.

[0:28:21] Hannah Sharrett: But yeah, obviously everyone wants to talk about it, right? And even more so as an independent.

[0:28:27] Ben Smith: Yeah, and I think it's the agencies that are a bit more confident that tend to go for that a bit more. But I understand why you don't. And let's be clear, some—it depends on the client, right? Some clients, absolutely it's written in, season‑season‑season, you just know it's not going to be a very long client relationship if you do. So…

[0:28:46] Hannah Sharrett: We won a global car brand earlier this year, and it was made clear—you know, up against network legacy agencies, a car brand that's all about safety, anti‑risk—so that was massive. So not being able to announce it is frustrating, but I'm more excited about the partnership and the work we can do together, and that a global legacy car brand is backing an indie.

[0:29:14] Ben Smith: And also, as you do the work, everyone knows anyway, because you get to talk about the work a little bit.

[0:29:19] Hannah Sharrett: So, yeah, that's a good point. You prove by doing rather than shouting about it in the first instance. I'd rather start quiet and then share later.

[0:29:29] Ben Smith: But that's another interesting thought around profile, isn't it? Because that does matter, and there's all sorts of different ways of building personal profile, agency profile, profile of the work—but all of that together does create noise and endorsement and helps get you on the pitch lists.

[0:29:54] Hannah Sharrett: Yeah, 100%. And I think it's, you know, again, it's even more so for the indies, to be able to… You know, it's intentionally part of our strategy. We don't have a secret network backing us. All our reputation is what we make ourselves. But then the second point to that, and I think it applies to any agency, no matter the size, is that we're all selling to clients that we understand the new landscape, understand new content creation, and are trying to tell brands to work like media houses, and it's the game of entertainment. So actually, we should be doing that ourselves anyway—practice what you preach.

[0:30:36] Ben Smith: No doubt, no doubt at all. I guess that's one of the reasons why third‑party endorsements from award schemes with decent reputations is so important as well. Hannah, thank you so much for coming on the PR Moment Podcast. Fantastic chat about the wonderful world of PR pitching, and I suppose put a few issues to bed there. So thanks for joining us today.

[0:30:58] Hannah Sharrett: Thanks so much for having me.

[0:31:01] Ben Smith: Thanks for listening to the PRmoment Podcast, produced in association with the Markettiers Network. If you've enjoyed the show, please do review us on iTunes and give us a decent rating.