Interview with Mike Comparato- Benefit Street Partners L.L.C.

COVID-19: Discussion of the Economic Environment and Impact on the Multifamily Sector
Listen as Benefit Street Partners' Managing Director and Head of Real Estate, Mike Comparato answers questions on the broader real estate space, and specifically within the multifamily sector, where the firm participates actively as a debt and equity investor.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hello. Today is Saturday, March 28th and my name is Chris Broadhead. I'm a managing director at Benefit Street Partners or BSP. Before we begin, I want to thank you all for listening today and hope that this audio reaches you in good health and comfort as we navigate the COVID-19 Pandemic. For those of you that may be unfamiliar with our firm, BSP serves as the alternatives arm of Franklin Templeton and manages multiple strategies for a myriad of clientele from large institutions to wealth advisors and their clients. BSP manages both debt and equity real estate investment strategies and leans heavily on the firms quantitative and credit centric core. Today we'll be speaking with our head of real estate like Comparato who also serves as chief investment officer of BSP's real estate investment offering. Mike will answer some of our questions and provide feedback on the broader real estate space and specifically within the multifamily sector where we participate actively as an equity investors. Mike, thank you for joining us today. Good morning, Chris. Thanks for having me. First, the big picture, Covid19 is unlike anything we've seen in modern times in terms of its speed and its contagion as well as the tangential health, societal and economic ramifications. So, Mike, give us an overview of the macro events that have transpired. What is your outlook on how this may impact the broader economy? Thanks Chris. Um, you know, obviously that's the question that everybody is asking today. Um, I'm a, I'm a pretty avid reader and in normal times and I feel like I've been reading and researching things, uh, much more extensively than, than typical and on topics that I never thought I would be researching for the past few weeks. Um, you know, I think the important big picture to take away from this or is really two things. Um, and obviously I hope I'm right with respect to the first one. But you know, in my experience in life, you know, just generally speaking, both financial, uh, personal, everything, the, the anxiety of events typically outweighs the reality of them. Once we have the benefit of hindsight and I'm really, really hoping for the benefit of the country for the benefit of, you know, just everyday America, financial markets as well. But just everything that we're able to look back on this event and say that the anxiety, uh, that we built around it was multiples higher than the reality that we ended up suffering. I would also say I, I've spent a decent amount of time reading, you know, just about historic financial crisis's over the literally the centuries. And if you have the opportunity to just Google about, you know, financial crisis or things of that nature. The amount of things that this country has gotten through over the past 50-100 years is mind blowing. And I'm reliving the ones that, you know, I have lived through, whether it's the, you know, the SNL crash, the 1987 crash, you know, longterm capital management and the Russian debt crisis, the dotcom bubble, 9/11, Lehman brothers bankruptcy and subprime. I mean, I just remember in all of those times, you know, everybody thought that, you know, the world was going to change forever at the depth of the, you know, situation in the middle of the storm as it were. You know, everybody was talking about how life is going to change forever and you know, how do we recover? And after every single one of those events, this country bounced back and it bounced back better and it bounced back stronger. And I think we're in the same spot today. We're in the middle of the storm and we don't know exactly how it's going to end. But I am incredibly confident that when we fast forward a few months and a year or two, that this country is going to bounce back and be stronger than we ever were. And I think, and I don't want to be overly optimistic, but I really think that this is a unique crisis versus the ones that I had just mentioned in that it has opened our eyes to this country's reliance on other countries around the world, whether it's China, Korea, India, Taiwan, you know, all of these places that we have been getting our goods and, and, and products and pharmaceuticals and all of these things. And I truly think that this will be a wake up call for, you know, not only Americans, but American corporations who are going to make strategic changes going forward to bring some of those, you know, what we've now seen as essential, you know, every day needs manufacturing back inside our borders. I could see over the course of the next year or the next years, excuse me, you know, pharmaceutical manufacturing coming back inside the U S paper, product manufacturing, coming back inside the U S you know, countless, literally countless industries that we say, you know, in a time of crisis, we better be prepared to produce this stuff inside our borders and distribute it inside our borders. Because the Pacific ocean is pretty darn big and relying on others is not the greatest feeling in the world when you're in the middle of the storm. So I am, you know, unlike some of the other financial crisis, these, I, I do believe this is something that could ultimately bring back millions of new jobs over the course of the next, you know, one, two to five years and have a huge impact on our economy, both real estate related and non real estate related. So this is hard. This is cost. Everybody, you know, the United States is effectively shut down for right now. Um, it's, it's truly a surreal experience that I don't think any American ever thought could happen, but I, and there's going to be pain. There's no question there. There's going to be pain and we're, we're going to have to all deal with it together and work through it together. But I think, you know, politics aside, the government has provided a stimulus package here that is just mindblowing and earth shattering. And you know, the, the, the typical phrase is that they use the bazooka. This was, this was a new, I mean, it's just, it's 10% of GDP, it's massive. So I think that we've got all the pieces in place to get through this, albeit with the, with a little bit of pain, maybe a lot of pain, but I am massively confident that we have greener pastures on the other side of this. Thanks, Mike. Yeah, your, your commentary and sentiments on trade and manufacturing, um, are, are certainly note worthy and those are, um, standpoints that have been shared by numerous investors and wealth managers that our team has spoken with over the last couple of weeks. So some pretty stark unemployment numbers, uh, came out towards the tail end of last week. Give us your best and worst case scenarios as it relates to unemployment. And how does that impact your role as a real estate investor? I think, uh, Chris, it's a little bit early to be prognosticating, uh, because I think there's a direct correlation, uh, between the duration of this situation and unemployment. Uh, it goes without saying that the longer this lasts, the more difficult and the deeper the trough is going to be. Um, I would say for the time being that the vast majority of jobs lost today has been in, you know, the various service sectors that shockingly went out of business literally overnight. I shouldn't say went out of business, but temporary temporarily closed overnight. So you know, hotels, hospitality, entertainment, any sort of gathering events, uh, restaurants, airplanes, airports. So you saw an immediate, you know, cataclysmic response to, to these companies that went from, you know, having extensive revenue to zero. I mean literally you can throw your financial models out the window for this. Right now, you know, there's no sensitizing a business where the revenue goes to zero overnight. So I think it's a little bit hard to, to predict where we go on unemployment. What I am very confident in is that when we are through this, those same jobs get turned back on very quickly. So there is going to be pent up demand. You know, we're all scratching at the walls. So I think the jobs that have been lost thus far are going to rebound very V-shaped. That restaurant is going to hire back all of its employees, all of its line chefs, all of its waiters and waitresses and bartenders. So as we sit here today, if we can keep this door, the duration of this pandemic on the shorter end, which obviously is everybody's desire, I think that you will see a very, very meaningful recovery in those jobs very, very quickly to the extent that expands and continues and goes on and on for months, which you know, God bless the country if it does and hopefully it won't. But you know, the further this goes, the further the unemployment is going to seep into other sectors which so far have not been directly impacted. I mean everything has been impacted, but you know, you have not seen, you know, doctors and lawyers and, and you know, things of that nature or occupations of that nature that have had a direct impact as of yet. So let's go specific to your day to day. What could this do to the broader real estate market and over what timeline and how does this all shape the way you're looking at the real estate portfolios? You manage at Benefit Street Partners, you know, the day to day has been relatively stressful. Uh, for the past two to three weeks. We have obviously experienced things again that this country has never experienced. We've, we've experienced financial crisis before, but we've never experienced where, you know, the, the, the entirety of society is just closed. So it's a unique situation. What, what I can say, you know, from a personal standpoint is I'm a fourth generation, real estate owner, investor, developer, lender. This is all I know. And I came from a family, uh, who was in the real estate business since 1946. And real estate, as with any market is cyclical. There's good times, there's bad times. You know, you're, you're met with, again, the SNL crisis and people forget the SNL crisis. One third of all SNL's closed. Just shut down. I mean, you w ere looking at the d epth of despair i n the commercial real estate industry when that took place. You know, the tax law changes i n 1986, you know, the, the, the overbuilding and commercial real estate as an asset class has had its fair share of run-ins over the past, you know, 50, 75, 100 years. But what I have always seen coming out of this and what my family had always experienced through this is over the long run, just through inflation and through being part of, y ou k now, the greatest economic machine the world has ever seen in the United States. Real estate b ounces back, people need a place to live, people need a place to go to work. People need entertainment places for, you know, shopping. Obviously we've seen some of these change over the years with, you know, Amazon and the influx of, you know, iPhones and technology and maybe office demand could go down in the future, but I don't see that having a material material impact on the overall commercial real estate market. So I think my day to day, every day has been much, much different than a typical day to day, you know, say two months ago. Uh, but I, I firmly believe that, you know, commercial real estate plays a major role in, in our economy. Uh, there's going to be twists and turns. Uh, but when all is said and done, I do think that we recover out of this and I, I think we recover very strong. I'm picking up some optimism from your comments and tone and optimism is hard to come by at the moment. So that optimism aside, how are you managing the downside risk and what gives you confidence that you're positioned to capture the upside? Being a lender for most of my career, I, I, by nature I'm a conservative person. We have managed risks on literally a daily basis for years because you never know when you're going to have a rainy day or a thunderstorm and you certainly don't know when you're going to get a category five that hits you out of the, out of the blue. And that's really what this was, right? I mean usually I, I spent most of my childhood in Florida and I remember boarding up my house more often than I wish to over the summer with my father as we were preparing for a hurricane. But usually you would see it coming. You had this preparation, you knew it was, you know, 10 days away, seven days away, the path would change. You maybe didn't have to be as nervous. Um, but this one just came out of the blue. It's like you woke up and you were in a category five. So I would say we just by nature have always been defensive people. And I think the key to playing defense, especially in financial markets, at least[inaudible] is leverage a, we run a commercial mortgage rate that makes loans, uh, across the country to various different, uh, commercial real estate owners and asset classes. And I think the, the standard or typical in air quotes leverage that most mortgage rates use is a three to one leverage ratio, which is a lot of leverage. Um, and if you look at our rates, we have been running for most of 2019 and the beginning part of 2020 at two to one leverage which is substantially lower than our peer set and our, our, our industry peers. So by nature alone, typically where people get into trouble in these crises are leverage. So we ran our mortgage rate with a lot of cash, a lot less leverage and we're able to weather the storm as a result. Our second vehicle that we manage that I wanted to just talk briefly about is a multifamily rate that owns about$400 million worth of assets, uh, across the country. Uh, all multifamily. And again, the key there is we have very modest leverage in our portfolio. And if you look at our loan to values and our debt service coverages, we can sustain a incredible hit to our cash flows and still pay all of our lenders if we get to levels that are, you know, unbelievably low, you know, occupancies of 60% or 50%. You know, again, similar to my modeling, my previous statement where you can throw your financial models out the window about a company's revenues, just dropping to zero. You know, if we are in a point where, you know, multifamily occupancy is 50%, you know, clearly that is going to be difficult for anybody to manage, but we would have the ability to manage that. We have ample cash, we have revolving lines of credit, which we have already drawn upon. So that cash is sitting on our balance sheet and we've really positioned ourselves that, you know, even if the storm ends up being much worse than we're anticipating, we have the financial wherewithal to bridge from point a to point B. So I think history has taught us leverage is great in the good times and awful in the bad times. And as a result, we have run both of our vehicles with a very, very modest amount of leverage and we've positioned both vehicles with a very strong cash position so that we're able to withstand unexpected category fives that show up out of nowhere. Uh, and so I think that, you know, coming out of this, we will be rewarded by investors who say those guys were conservative. They did the right thing, they didn't, you know, push too hard and they prepared for a storm. And I think at the end of the day, people come to us to be stewards of their money. I think a lot of investors are much more appreciative when you in bad times are able to protect their principal. And that's really what we're built to do, uh, in, in difficult times as we want to make you a great risk adjusted return when things are right. But we want a really deep position that when things are bad, we take as minimal of losses, if any as possible. So let's talk about multi-families even more specifically. So understanding that this is an incredibly fluid set of circumstances that we're facing. What's the latest thinking on how the segment, um, has, has fared and may be impacted by the Corona virus when the country and when individuals are faced with these kinds of crisises and, and, you know, job loss and, and financial panic. What's the first thing that everybody does? They take out a piece of paper and a pencil and they write down all their bills and they categorize them. You know, what's the, what's the bill that we've got to pay? What's the one that we can't live without? And they go through their, you know, 20 or 25 bills that they have to pay every month. And you know, I would say usually the top one is I'm going to pay the mortgage, I'm going to pay the rent. Everybody needs a place to live. So usually when you look at that hierarchy of bill payment, you know, mortgage payment and rent is at the very top. Um, now obviously we're in a situation where we have a spike in unemployment and you know, again, I touched on earlier the sectors and segments that are, that are hurting, uh, the most and that, so I think you could see some rent payments that are not paid for a month or two or three. Uh, I think that the immediate cashflow impact is probably, again, tailored to, you know, middle income, lower middle income type communities. Call it B minus multifamily, maybe C plus multifamily. Uh, I, I think that those, uh, those asset classes probably suffer in the short term more than some of the high end class a, uh, multifamily communities. So it's, it's difficult to predict just how bad a rent collection is going to be. Uh, we're going to find out and in the next few days, obviously, you know, most rents and most mortgages or, or, or I'm sorry, most, most rents are due on the first of the month and we're, you know, we're around the corner from, from April 1st. So, uh, we'll have much more clarity as to the severity of the impact here. But I think, you know, again, I just continue coming back to this hopefully is a temporary situation that the government has helped stop gap, uh, you know, the, the country's inability to pay us bills and maybe the impact will not be as severe as we thought it would, uh, you know, a few weeks ago, what scenarios are you currently forecasting on rent, faults and vacancy in the workforce? How they segment given the current environment. How do you model this? Given the circumstances, it's very difficult, again, to model, uh, something that's never happened before. So we are running 18 different scenarios 17 times a day. Uh, and I, and I will say one of the positives just specific to BSP that has come out of this, you know, obviously we, we office out of New York. Uh, we are usually able to grab five or six people and sit in a room and go through a spreadsheet and being spread literally across the country and people working out of their apartments. The communication and the ability for us to, you know, work cohesively has gone shockingly well. Uh, so I'm, I'm very, very happy to report that even in a time of unprecedented crisis and, you know, my employees being spread across, you know, a multitude of States and cities and counties, you know, our efficiency really has not dropped at all. Uh, so, so I'm really happy about that. But in terms of specific modeling, I mean, we're really running things, you know, on a daily basis, multiple different times, multiple different ways. And you know, we're, we're basically taking very big, a very big margins between otherwise very small margin variables. So let's specifically just talk about vacancy and collection loss since that, that's probably what we're going to experience here. You know, when we're underwriting, you know, both as a lender and as an equity investor, vacancy and collection loss, it's under, you know, normal economic scenarios. And the, uh, the margin between your sensitivity analysis is typically about a hundred basis points. So we'll go to a market or a specific sub market and within that market or sub market, you know, we have excellent data that says, okay, the, the class a sub market in this region is running at a 4.22% vacancy and we'll sensitize that vacancy to 5% 6% 7% 8% you know, maybe we'll, we'll run it down to 10%. It just think of, you know, what's the worst that could be? And you know, for this generation and this group of professionals, you know, most of them only have experienced Lehman brothers, maybe the dotcom era. You know, going back to Lehman brothers, we saw vacancies in the multifamily space bike to, you know, eight to 12% I would say very generically across the country, across different asset classes obviously was specific to different markets and different asset classes. But you know, we really didn't see many multifamily markets get, you know, hit harder than low double digits in terms of vacancy. Obviously there's pockets and certain places that were hit the hardest, uh, that, you know, there were situations where it did get higher, but generically speaking, you know, kind of eight to 12% was the lowest that any investment professionals have seen in their careers to date. We're talking about modeling now instead of having those hundred basis point increments from 4% to 8% you know, we're modeling now in 5% increments saying, okay, let's run vacancy a 10% 15% 20% 25% and how does it look at these levels? Right? And obviously as that number gets bigger and that collection loss gets higher or that vacancy gets higher, the more stress it puts on the cash flows of the property. And so then we look from a lender standpoint, we look at our underlying sponsor strength and we say, okay, we've got a very well capitalized borrower underlying owner of the property who that even if we get to these levels of collection loss and vacancy, they have the financial where for all independent of the property to continue to carry the asset out of pocket. And I firmly believe that most borrowers are looking at this situation saying this is going to be a very deep trough or potentially deep trough for 90 days. Maybe I'm wrong by 30 days in either direction, but am I really going to jeopardize, you know, losing my property or being in default on my loan because I need to come out of pocket to carry my asset for two or three debt service payment periods. Now we're also seeing a lot of people get, you know, governmental assistance. Fannie and Freddie have put in some debt service, forbearance and some banks are, you know, working with all of their borrowers to work through that. So I think as with any crisis we're, we're working together with, with borrowers and owners and lenders and bankers, you know, and kind of, you know, teaming together saying what's the best thing for everybody and how do we tackle the problem together and working with them to get through that. And the same is true on, on the equity side. You know, when we sent the ties, our equity portfolio that we own, I had our team run vacancy and collection loss down to 25% and our, thankfully our break even occupancy is actually in the low thirties. So for us to continue to pay our debt service on our multifamily portfolio that we own, we actually can drop our vacancy and or collection loss to about 32% and even if it dropped lower than that, you know, as I mentioned earlier, we have already drawn cash on our revolving lines of credit to give us the ability to carry us through those, those first few months where, you know, the depths of the crisis are the deepest. So the biggest changes is really been the margin between the sensitizing, instead of, you know, that hundred basis point increments on vacancy, we're now running them at five. And you know, do I think that we're going to see 25 to 30% collection loss? I really don't. Uh, I, I think that is a pretty draconian downside underwriting scenario, but it's really nice to run your models at those levels and still see that you're probably okay. So let's talk a little bit about the acquisitions marketplace at a time like this. How frozen is the market and what levers do you have available to pull in your portfolios and in the overall acquisitions marketplace? I wouldn't say that the acquisitions market is frozen from a technical perspective. Um, the, the vast majority of multifamily assets are financed on, uh, financed by the federal government through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Um, the, that is mostly for stabilized multifamily assets. Uh, but the, the, the, the agency lenders are still open for business. They are still closing loans and they are ultimately backed and guaranteed by the federal government. So if you wanted to buy a multifamily asset today, you could, uh, and you could get that financed by the federal government. So from a technical standpoint, the market is not frozen from a risk return ratios standpoint. I do think the market has stalled and it's very difficult, uh, in the middle of this, uh, situation to price risk appropriately. Uh, you know, if cap rates for, you know, an urban infill, really nice class, a multifamily asset, we're four and a half percent, you know, six weeks ago, are they supposed to be four and a half percent today? It's hard to think that every financial asset in the world is not cheaper than it was six months ago. So I think that multifamily investors, while they still, you know, would love to buy a multifamily assets, have to look at alternative S investment opportunities and say, you know, why would I buy this for this return if I can go buy that for that return? And that doesn't necessarily have to be real estate. It could be a bond. It could be a stock, it could be a, a, a mezzanine loan. It could be a multitude of different investment opportunities. But I do think, you know, every financial asset is correlated from stocks to bonds, to real estate, to everything. And so if there are more opportunistic or better priced risk return, uh, investments out there, people are taking that into consideration. Uh, if you are a long, long, long term investor in commercial real estate, these situations almost always end up being good opportunities to buy. If you have a very long investment timeline of 20 years, 30 years, and you just want to buy great assets in good markets with the underlying investment thesis of my financial models are kind of broken right now, but I'm pretty sure over the next 15, 20, 25 years, rents are going to go higher. Inflation is going to go higher. The cost of building things is going to go higher. And buying an asset today, 15 years from now is undoubtedly worth more. That's kind of how you invest in times like these, if you have the liquidity and the this stomach to handle some of the roller coasters on valuation, you just, you kind of throw the financial model out the window and you say, you know, at this cost per door, you know, at this general cap rate, I'm a buyer, right? It just, it's almost impossible today to put a cap rate on an asset because we don't know what the vacancy and collection losses. And then furthermore, we don't know how long that vacancy and collection loss is going to stay in place. So, you know, I think the traditional methodology of valuing commercial real estate assets and specifically multifamily is you take a a rent roll and you take out expenses and you, you arrive at a bottom line, net operating income and you put a cap rate on it. And in a time of uncertainty when that NOI is going to have dropped, you know, perhaps precipitously are you supposed to value an asset based on, you know, that that trough NOI, most sellers would say no. Most buyers would say yes and welcome to, you know, your first class of basic supply and demand and economics. So it's, it's really just, it's going to take the market some time to get priced discovery of assets, uh, whether it's real estate or anything else. There's just going to be a period here where you know, buyers and sellers are going to have to work each other as they always do and say, okay, we think cap rates are here based on suppressed cash flows and hopefully those cash flows recover sooner rather than later. And you know, it, it's just a process. So I think, you know, we are in the middle of the storm and trying to go out and, and, and really understand valuation, uh, on a scientific basis is very, very difficult right now. But with every passing week that we get more data and more information and things hopefully calm down, that picture will, will become more clear and it will give buyers, you know, more comfort to buy and it will go sellers more comfort to potentially sell if they, if their sellers and we, we'll figure out market pricing over the course of the next few weeks and months. But there's going to be a period here where there's just a lot of price uncertainty. As a followup to that question, you've come in and on asset level evaluations, but I'm sure that some of our listeners are speculating how the valuations and distributions on the investment vehicles may be affected by all of this understanding that you can't answer these questions specifically, please provide any color you can. Well, the old adage in times like these as cash is King. So, uh, I, I think that applies to every business, every investment manager and every individual across the country. Uh, you know, we are hearing about people hoarding cash and that's not necessarily the wrong, uh, you know, investment strategy for the time being. Uh, so, so cash is King. I think, you know, you've seen numerous rates already suspend dividends, you've seen some mortgage rates, suspend dividends, uh, you've seen some of the biggest corporations in the country, the spend dividends. And I don't think that that is a statement of their longterm health and, or ability to pay dividends in the future. I think it is a natural reaction of these companies. So just say, in times of absolute uncertainty, the most important asset that we can have as cash. And if we need to hold that cash right now rather than paying a dividend, that's probably the best decision for our shareholders on a longterm basis. You know, we're not necessarily managing here for the next 30 60, 90 days. We're trying to manage for the next one, two, five, 10 years. And so what you do in the short term has an immediate impact or potential impact on what happens over the long term. So I wouldn't be surprised to see, you know, more companies come out and, you know, draw on revolvers, draw on whatever cash they can, you know, potentially suspend more dividends. Do I think that, you know, when we come out of this, all of that will unravel itself? Absolutely. Um, you know, specific to the retail space, there's, there's tax law that requires read to, to pay a certain amount of their income out as dividends. So, you know, for, for specific to the commercial real estate space, these dividends cannot be turned off in perpetuity. But by tax law, they're going to be required to be paid at some point in the future if your company is making money and profitable. Okay. One last question for you, Mike, and you've referenced this at times throughout our conversation, but how do you foresee a recovery unfolding and over what timeline? You know, again, Christmas is, you know, the timeline is anybody's guess. Uh, I think, you know, as I mentioned to start the interview, uh, I'm an avid reader to begin with, uh, but I've been reading a lot more for the past two, three weeks about subjects that I never thought I would be reading about. You know, I, I never thought I would be an app home epidemiologist, you know, trying to figure out viruses and, and are not ratios and how fast things spread. I mean, it's, it's truly been an eyeopening and fascinating thing to get to get an education on. Um, and I, I can't quite explain the, the social response to this and, and it's probably not appropriate for this interview, uh, but over, you know, a beer or as you and I like, you know, a glass of Bordeaux, sometime we, we will talk more about it, but this is not the first time that this has happened in this country. And the amount of viral epidemics that we have had since, you know, going back to 1918 in this country has been much more common than I would have thought six weeks ago before this happened. And again, this is just my reading, but this seems to happen in the country about every eight to 12 years. And you know, there's presidential orders and presidents do this and local economies do that. And you know, the, the most recent one obviously was the outbreak in 2009 of the H one N one virus that, you know, ultimately the CDC predicts that 60 million Americans were infected with the H one N one 60 million. That's a fifth of our population. So, and that was only 10 years ago. How do we come out of it? Or how long does it take to come out of it? You know, if anyone's, yes, it really is. Um, I do believe the country has finally taken measures, uh, to, to get through this as quick as it possibly can. It's very difficult to just paint a picture across the entirety of this great nation and saying, this is when it's gonna end. My guess is, is that you will see suburbia come back to normal, faster than major urban metros just because of density issues. And I think the spread of this virus, you know, knock on wood, will not be as severe in suburbia as it was in highly dense and highly, highly dense urban core type locations. So the recovery is, I think going to be, you know, city by city, County by County, a little bit different, uh, across the country. And you know, I, I think you'll see suburbia come out of this a little bit quicker, uh, than urban infill. But what do I see doing this? You know, what do I see happening in the economy out of this? You know, it's back to what I said earlier, I think this country has always bounced back and it's always bounced back better, bigger and stronger than it did when we're in the middle of whatever mess was happening at that time. And I think that, you know, not to sound like this over over overly bullish person, but we have truly in the United States built the greatest economic machine that the world has ever seen. We as a people just are built, you know, from our core to fight back and to come out of it and to band together and fight through it. And I think we're going to do it and I think we're going to do it in space. And I think that we're going to come out of this thing stronger and I think we're going to learn a lot of lessons. We're going to figure out how as a country to deal with these things happening again because this, to be clear is not the last time this is going to happen in the world or in the United States. So we've experienced it as with everything in life. Let's use it as a learning lesson. Let's make sure that we don't do this to ourselves again. Let's make sure that, you know, the next time that something happens, whether it's, you know, out of China, out of Europe, out of South America, out of the United States, that we're just better prepared to handle it going forward. But I do think we come back strong. I think we come back very strong. I think that we bring back a lot of industry and fight our borders. And I think that the, the final outcome of this could be, you know, net millions of jobs created a car across the country. And I think the type of jobs that are great for, you know, middle America to have let, you know, we as a country used to make fantastic things. Let's start using our hands again. Let's start getting dirty and building stuff and creating things and giving good wages to good people. And, and I'm excited. I, I, you know, I hate the fact that we're going through this, but I've just seen this country bounce back and, um, and I'm proud to be an American and I think we're going to come through this thing and really kick butt on the back end of it. And I'm super excited to see what we can do. Thank you so much for your time today, Mike, and to all of you listening from home, we appreciate you joining us today and we look forward to doing this again soon. Stay safe and take care.